Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[TeeMo]

While I appreciate that it seems Derrick may be the lone Duggar adjacent willing to speak the truth about his nutbag in-laws, I worry that the way he is doing it could cause more harm than good for Jill. We know she has no autonomy- she went from blindly following the ways of Jim Bob to blindly following the ways of Derrick(all the way to Danger America and back). I think we can all agree that what Jill suffered at the hands of Josh and her parents is traumatizing and awful and if I were advising her as a friend I would encourage her to get as far away from them as possible.

But all Jill knows is the insulated life of her parents’ house and now the lonely life of a stay at home mom with no education and no outside stimulation. No matter how terrible they are, losing the connection to her family cannot be easy for her (especially if you take Jim Bob, Michelle and Josh out of it all together). Derrick going on the warpath against Jim Bob means Jill is cut off from everyone in that house because Jim Bob controls the purse strings and thus controls them all. This is a girl who has never had an actual friend. It is terribly sad and it has been clear for months that she is struggling. 

Is it possible that Derrick consulted Jill before dropping these bombs on Instagram? Sure. But we know he is an angry, argumentative asshole and we know that she would bow to whatever he told her he thought was the right thing to do whether she really agreed or not. I’d like to think the haircut was maybe a sign that she is feeling better and more free in some ways. Maybe this is because she and Derrick have had serious conversations about cutting off from the family and it gives her relief. Maybe they are taking other steps in private to do this in a way that helps Jill cope with so much loss. I hope that is the case but I just don’t trust Derrick to do what is right for Jill because we know that Derrick always does what Derrick wants for Derrick and Jill is along for the ride. Derrick gets restless on breaks from school and likes to start trouble on social media. He is a smug shit stirrer.

To me this feels an awful lot like Jill being victimized yet again by a man who holds all the power over her and it makes me incredibly sad for her. 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Growsonwalls said:

Derick is the most vocal in-law but if you think of it many of the in-laws seem to have Duggar Exhaustion Syndrome (DES). Look at that video Jessa made during Christmas. Abbie and Lauren had identical scowls and tired, sad eyes.

Could we hope for a joint tell-all? Too much to hope for?

That would be quite interesting if more than 1 would spill.

The only episode I watched was the marriage retreat one a few weeks ago. I think it was Abbie mentioned something about being more used to schedule and JD obviously not being raised that way, a couple of the other in-laws nodded with 1000-yard stares. One was Kendra. I think the other might have been Ben. In any event, it was clearly not personality-specific to one Duggar kid and more than one in-law had noted it and seemed a bit taken aback by it. 

[Zella]

I just checked my post--Abbie and Ben both mentioned it directly apparently and Kendra seemed to nod in solidarity. 

[lascuba]

7 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Guys if you want to watch the full interview here it is. I don't know how anyone can watch this and not come to the conclusion that Jill is having a mental breakdown of some sort. She's crying nonstop and barely articulate. Jessa is cold and steely and toes the company line, as she is wont to do.

In fact I wonder if JB and Michelle decided right then and there that Jessa was the more worthy Duggar for her ability to spit back talking points under duress like that.

 

I was a regular watcher of 19K from the beginning. I seen Jill cry plenty of times. Those were fake tears. 

[MsJamieDornan]

34 minutes ago, drafan said:

Does Derick realize that all his financial woes would be over forever if/when he writes the insider tell-all?

C'mon , Derick, we've got your back. Just be truthful and accurate ...put that 1/2 law degree to good use.

I would read it, twice.

 

But it seems a lot of people don't believe him.

[PikaScrewChu]

3 hours ago, Dimi1 said:

Ah...Jinger....I do not see her dealing with this at ALL...

If you read the police reports it is easy to match who is who. There is a reason Jinger wanted to get the hell out of the TTH.

Although if this is all true, Jinger "crying and praying" over her decisions to wear pants and that BS makes sense. Grovel a bit so she doesn't get the banhammer from the TTH. 

[mynextmistake]

32 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I was a regular watcher of 19K from the beginning. I seen Jill cry plenty of times. Those were fake tears. 

Sure didn’t look that way to me.

Jessa must be one cold fish or really, really hate Jill to sit next to her when she was so upset and not even reach over and pat her shoulder. It strikes me sometimes that for a “family are the only friends you need” family, none of the adult Duggars seem very fond of each others’ company. Jill, Jessa, Jana and Joy all live within easy driving distance of one another but except for family events like births and parties there’s little evidence on their social media that they spend time together. I wonder how much the members of this family actually like each other.

I’m glad it seems like Jill is developing a new support system (she has made at least one genuine friend, who shows up frequently on social media) but I also hope she is in counseling with a licensed counselor. I think she’s just starting to wake up about how seriously fucked up her childhood was, and she’s going to need a lot of help to process that trauma. 

[Marigold]

Let's not forget Michelle.  JB has essentially kept a mother and daughter apart. 

Michelle is a nutcase and has views that we don't agree with.  But from Jill's point of view, that is her mother and many new mothers really need their own mothers. 

Jill has been cut off from 18 siblings and her mother.  Banned from her childhood home, the place where everyone meets and socializes.  She can reach out to her family by text etc but it's not the same and being "part of the group."

I told you guys that I was IFB and some of them practice Biblical Shunning. I was shunned.  I think Derick and Jill have been shunned. 

 

Jill kinda reminds me of Nicki Grant from Big Love, when she had that mini breakdown after realizing her father, Roman Grant, put her in the book of girls eligible for marriage. The reality that she was just some girl to be sold off was a rough. Jill must be feeling like that. After being Jim Bob's little Jilly Muffin to finding out the truth about Jim Bob?  

[Growsonwalls]

15 minutes ago, Marigold said:

Let's not forget Michelle.  JB has essentially kept a mother and daughter apart. 

Michelle is a nutcase and has views that we don't agree with.  But from Jill's point of view, that is her mother and many new mothers really need their own mothers. 

Jill has been cut off from 18 siblings and her mother.  Banned from her childhood home, the place where everyone meets and socializes.  She can reach out to her family by text etc but it's not the same and being "part of the group."

I told you guys that I was IFB and some of them practice Biblical Shunning. I was shunned.  I think Derick and Jill have been shunned. 

 

Jill kinda reminds me of Nicki Grant from Big Love, when she had that mini breakdown after realizing her father, Roman Grant, put her in the book of girls eligible for marriage. The reality that she was just some girl to be sold off was a rough. Jill must be feeling like that. After being Jim Bob's little Jilly Muffin to finding out the truth about Jim Bob?  

Omg Big Love! You are right about Nikki. Also remember that what finally made Nikki a better person was not Bill but the unwavering support and devotion of sister-wife-but-really-mother Barb. For Barb this meant putting up with Nikki's lies, manipulation, tantrums, and let's not forget the credit card debt. 

I just don't see any Barb's in Jill's life. Derick is at most like Bill in Big Love -- not a bad guy but hotheaded and of a limited emotional palette. 

And now for some good Nikki and Barb. Barb teaching Nikki how to dance for the first time:

 

[lascuba]

OK, I rewatched that interview to make sure my memory wasn't faulty and...I REALLY don't see what everyone else is seeing. BOTH of them were giggling and dismissive during the first part of the interview. Jill starting gouging her eyes out to produce tears when talking about In Touch and was the first to bring up the obviously coached line about Baur exploiting women and being a porn provider. Go back and watch the video of Jill crying while retelling the DA shower curtain story and compare that to the interview. The difference is striking. Jill has a distinctive crying face that's just not there when talking about the way In Touch victimized her "1000% worse than Josh did."

I've brought this up before, but one of the few things I believe them about is their feelings about Josh and what he did to them--at least at that moment they were interviewed and for a while afterwards, because I know feelings can surface later. People keep expecting them to feel as if it happened close to the time the public found out about it, when, considering how long ago it had been and those two* having no memory of what happened because they were asleep, it makes sense to me that it really wasn't a big deal to them at the time of the interview. 

*And there's a reason they're are still the only victims that have spoken about it. Because everyone in that family knew that there was no way to downplay Josh's actions with Jinger describing how he cornered her in the laundry room. 

[lascuba]

11 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Omg Big Love! You are right about Nikki. Also remember that what finally made Nikki a better person was not Bill but the unwavering support and devotion of sister-wife-but-really-mother Barb. For Barb this meant putting up with Nikki's lies, manipulation, tantrums, and let's not forget the credit card debt. 

I just don't see any Barb's in Jill's life. Derick is at most like Bill in Big Love -- not a bad guy but hotheaded and of a limited emotional palette. 

And now for some good Nikki and Barb. Barb teaching Nikki how to dance for the first time:

 

Perfect comparison and explains why I hate Derick so much. Bill was THE WORST!

[JoanArc]

48 minutes ago, mynextmistake said:

she has made at least one genuine friend, who shows up frequently on social media)

 That would be her MLM upline.

[BetyBee]

I haven't watched the video since it first aired until today, and I was struck by a couple of things. One is that the girls repeatedly stated how well their parents handled the situation and claimed that the children and family services people complimented them on how beautifully they'd handled it. What bull! That sounded completely scripted by their idiot parents.

The other thing was a comment by Jessa I think, about how even the girls who were awake (during the molestation) were unaware of what was happening to them. What does that even mean?! Are they saying that because they were naive about sex that they didn't recognize Josh's "sly" touch as being wrong? I don't believe that. 

I think that this estrangement from her wack-a-doodle family is the best thing that's ever happened to Jill. These people are awful.

[fonfereksglen]

3 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Perfect comparison and explains why I hate Derick so much. Bill was THE WORST!

But....... you are comparing a fictional program carefully scripted to draw in viewers on  pay cable?  To real life?

Real life is far more messy and inscrutable.

[tabloidlover]

Let’s be honest, we have no idea what Josh really did to those poor girls.  I will not be accepting JB & M’s word on what Josh admitted to them.   Bullshit!  They are lying liars who lie, and I do not believe that their lying boy Josh was honest with them in his “confession” either.   
 

I am starting to believe that some of it is coming back to Jill, whether it was repressed or therapy is bringing it out, and that is what Derick is reacting to.   His anger and rage at JB is quite telling imo

[CouchTater]

Not to make light of a heavy, dark and sad situation....but in the interview, both Jessa and Jill said "whenever this happened," or "whenever I learned this," etc. , when what they really meant was "when" something happened.   It drives me nuts when (ever, hee) someone uses this misphrasing.

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, tabloidlover said:

Let’s be honest, we have no idea what Josh really did to those poor girls.  I will not be accepting JB & M’s word on what Josh admitted to them.   Bullshit!  They are lying liars who lie, and I do not believe that their lying boy Josh was honest with them in his “confession” either.   
 

I am starting to believe that some of it is coming back to Jill, whether it was repressed or therapy is bringing it out, and that is what Derick is reacting to.   His anger and rage at JB is quite telling imo

Agreed! I've suspected for awhile that there was a lot more to it than was reported. It also pisses me off to no end that they act like this just happened within the family when one of his victims was not. 

[Growsonwalls]

A lot of the "we were asleep so we never knew" stuff sounds like bullshit. I'm a pretty heavy sleeper and if someone is touching me in my sleep like that I wake up. And I do that with a boyfriend. Imagine if it's JOSH. 

And this is a horrible thing to speculate but I wonder if the difficult births of Jill, Jessa, and Joy fit a pattern. Another legacy of sexual abuse is permanent tissue damage that occurs down there. 

The other thing that people have pointed out is that Jill and Jessa became the "faces" of Josh molestation because of the interview. But Jinger, Joy and a babysitter were also molested. And they've never spoken about their experiences (understandably). So it was not just "within the family." Josh felt emboldened enough to go younger and younger (Joy was I believe 8 years old!) and outside the family.

Gross. Josh, JB and Michelle are garbage.

[Zella]

Just pulled up the police report and saw a detail I'd blanked on but that again stuns me in its brazenness--he molested one of them in front of multiple other siblings. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Zella

[Sew Sumi]

10 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

A lot of the "we were asleep so we never knew" stuff sounds like bullshit. I'm a pretty heavy sleeper and if someone is touching me in my sleep like that I wake up. And I do that with a boyfriend. Imagine if it's JOSH. 

And this is a horrible thing to speculate but I wonder if the difficult births of Jill, Jessa, and Joy fit a pattern. Another legacy of sexual abuse is permanent tissue damage that occurs down there. 

The other thing that people have pointed out is that Jill and Jessa became the "faces" of Josh molestation because of the interview. But Jinger, Joy and a babysitter were also molested. And they've never spoken about their experiences (understandably). So it was not just "within the family." Josh felt emboldened enough to go younger and younger (Joy was I believe 8 years old!) and outside the family.

Gross. Josh, JB and Michelle are garbage.

Joy was FIVE!!!!

[Growsonwalls]

2 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Joy was FIVE!!!!

Whoa. I'm reading the police report. And one nugget that I forgot: the fact that Jessa and Jill said that they woke up to Josh pulling the blanket away. That's like seriously aggressive abusive behavior right there.

Another detail is that he pulled a babysitter into his lap, started molesting her, and the babysitter ran out of the room. Holy shit. The police report is a lot grislier than I remember it.

[Jeanne222]

I'm curious.  How did Jana escape Josh and if it's because she was older she had to know something was going on since the girls all slept together!!!

[Growsonwalls]

6 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

I'm curious.  How did Jana escape Josh and if it's because she was older she had to know something was going on since the girls all slept together!!!

From the police report it sounds like the strict bedroom stuff was later to protect the girls against Josh. Both Jessa and Jill said they often slept on the couch and woke up to Josh pulling the blanket/covers away.

The scariest story is Jinger running out of the laundry room while folding clothes. Also the fact that once Josh was home with the girls and the girls called the restaurant JB and Michelle were at and told them to come home because Josh had "done something." So this was enough of a regular occurrence.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Growsonwalls

[Sew Sumi]

6 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Whoa. I'm reading the police report. And one nugget that I forgot: the fact that Jessa and Jill said that they woke up to Josh pulling the blanket away. That's like seriously aggressive abusive behavior right there.

Another detail is that he pulled a babysitter into his lap, started molesting her, and the babysitter ran out of the room. Holy shit. The police report is a lot grislier than I remember it.

But...but...but Jessa said in the Megyn Kelly interview that they were ASLEEP and that it was "no big deal." I tend to believe their initial memories, as they were far more fresh.

[Heathen]

8 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

From the police report it sounds like the strict bedroom stuff was later to protect the girls against Josh. Both Jessa and Jill said they often slept on the couch and woke up to Josh pulling the blanket/covers away.

The scariest story is Jinger running out of the laundry room while folding clothes. Also the fact that once Josh was home with the girls and the girls called the restaurant JB and Michelle were at and told them to come home because Josh had "done something." So this was enough of a regular occurrence.

I have a feeling I'm blocking something out -- what about Jinger and the laundry room? Did the SOB molest her there? 

[Zella]

Just now, Heathen said:

I have a feeling I'm blocking something out -- what about Jinger and the laundry room? Did the SOB molest her there? 

Yes. 😞 

[JAYJAY1979]

Jill always looked more sad in the early seasons..and I do recall the dental surgery scene a long time ago. 

So Jana managed to escape being abused?  If so, she could have survivor guilt..and also could explain why she's waited so long to marry because she doesn't trust men?

[Heathen]

8 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

But...but...but Jessa said in the Megyn Kelly interview that they were ASLEEP and that it was "no big deal." I tend to believe their initial memories, as they were far more fresh.

I suspect that the girls would have said Santa Claus molested them, if Jim Bob ordered them to say so. I've never believed that their accounts to Megyn Kelly even closely resembled what really happened. 

[Sew Sumi]

2 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I suspect that the girls would have said Santa Claus molested them, if Jim Bob ordered them to say so. I've never believed that their accounts to Megyn Kelly even closely resembled what really happened. 

Agreed 100%. Those girls were coached, Jill cited some crazy Gothard statistics, and Mechelle had notes in her lap.

[Growsonwalls]

What's also clear from the police report is that JB and Michelle struggled with Josh's behavior, and it sounds like this was an ongoing struggle. The girls mentioned that after Josh had been sent away when he came back he was more "tame" in the police report. Making him sound like he was very wild and uncontrollable. Parents getting called back home from a restaurant because Josh had "done something" again indicates an ongoing struggle with a child's behavior.

[lascuba]

1 hour ago, fonfereksglen said:

But....... you are comparing a fictional program carefully scripted to draw in viewers on  pay cable?  To real life?

Real life is far more messy and inscrutable.

Are you under the impression that reality tv isn't scripted?

 

12 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I have a feeling I'm blocking something out -- what about Jinger and the laundry room? Did the SOB molest her there? 

Yes. According to the police report, he grabbed her in the laundry room. 

[lascuba]

50 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

A lot of the "we were asleep so we never knew" stuff sounds like bullshit. I'm a pretty heavy sleeper and if someone is touching me in my sleep like that I wake up. And I do that with a boyfriend. Imagine if it's JOSH. 

And this is a horrible thing to speculate but I wonder if the difficult births of Jill, Jessa, and Joy fit a pattern. Another legacy of sexual abuse is permanent tissue damage that occurs down there. 

The other thing that people have pointed out is that Jill and Jessa became the "faces" of Josh molestation because of the interview. But Jinger, Joy and a babysitter were also molested. And they've never spoken about their experiences (understandably). So it was not just "within the family." Josh felt emboldened enough to go younger and younger (Joy was I believe 8 years old!) and outside the family.

Gross. Josh, JB and Michelle are garbage.

I used to be an extremely heavy sleeper and there's no doubt in my mind I would sleep through that. I've slept through much more disruptive things (NOT ABUSE!)

The births weren't related. Taking them at their word, they weren't abused to the point of physical damage, and if they had been I don't think the type of complications they had would be related to that anyway. 

[Heathen]

I have a vague memory that Smuggar had his own bedroom at the TTH (they called it the audio-visual room or some such). I'm wondering if there were two reasons why Smuggar and only Smuggar had his own bedroom: 1. They didn't want him teaching his brothers anything; 2. They were afraid he might molest his own brothers. 

[lascuba]

1 minute ago, Heathen said:

I have a vague memory that Smuggar had his own bedroom at the TTH (they called it the audio-visual room or some such). I'm wondering if there were two reasons why Smuggar and only Smuggar had his own bedroom: 1. They didn't want him teaching his brothers anything; 2. They were afraid he might molest his own brothers. 

This is awful, but I truly believe that if JB and Michelle thought for a second that he might molest boys, they would have dealt with Josh much more severely. 

[Zella]

6 minutes ago, lascuba said:

This is awful, but I truly believe that if JB and Michelle thought for a second that he might molest boys, they would have dealt with Josh much more severely. 

Agreed--I don't think same-sex molestation ever even seriously occurred to the Duggars. Because most of their "preventive measures" after the fact never seemed to factor it in. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Zella

[tabloidlover]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

Just pulled up the police report and saw a detail I'd blanked on but that again stuns me in its brazenness--he molested one of them in front of multiple other siblings. 

 

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

Whoa. I'm reading the police report. And one nugget that I forgot: the fact that Jessa and Jill said that they woke up to Josh pulling the blanket away. That's like seriously aggressive abusive behavior right there.

Another detail is that he pulled a babysitter into his lap, started molesting her, and the babysitter ran out of the room. Holy shit. The police report is a lot grislier than I remember it.

 

58 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

From the police report it sounds like the strict bedroom stuff was later to protect the girls against Josh. Both Jessa and Jill said they often slept on the couch and woke up to Josh pulling the blanket/covers away.

The scariest story is Jinger running out of the laundry room while folding clothes. Also the fact that once Josh was home with the girls and the girls called the restaurant JB and Michelle were at and told them to come home because Josh had "done something." So this was enough of a regular occurrence.

He clearly became more brazen with each and every time he got away with it.  I re-read the police report today as well, and it was quite clear that JB and M had let it go on for quite a while before taking action.  Completely unconscionable.   
 

“Vengeance is Mine..” is in both the New and Old Testaments...   I’d say JB and M should be extremely nervous (based upon their own KJB version)

[awaken]

Wow. Did not remember hearing about jinger and the laundry room. This is all so terrible. The ongoing consequences just keep on coming to light. 

[Absolom]

42 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I have a vague memory that Smuggar had his own bedroom at the TTH (they called it the audio-visual room or some such). I'm wondering if there were two reasons why Smuggar and only Smuggar had his own bedroom: 1. They didn't want him teaching his brothers anything; 2. They were afraid he might molest his own brothers. 

The "audio-visual room" was basically a closet.  It was about the same size as Jana's sewing room.

[mynextmistake]

What seals it for me is that he abused Joy when she was 5 and he was 14. That can’t be written off as “experimentation” or whatever other bullshit phrase Jim Bob and Michelle tried to use to excuse Josh’s abuse of the older girls. That’s predator behavior, period. He should have been sent to juvie or at least to some serious, legit sex offender treatment program, not to help a family friend paint his fence. And the girls should all have been sent to counseling with a licensed counselor trained to deal with sexual abuse victims. There’s just no excuse for how this was handled. If Jill is now re-examining the abuse and her parents’ complete failure to protect their children, she probably is angry, and with good reason. Derick certainly seems angry on her behalf, also with good reason. 

And I sincerely hope that everyone, including Anna, keeps a close eye on Josh around their kids. Maybe he has changed, I don’t know, but IME predators gonna prey. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by mynextmistake

[Love2dance]

@Zella, I am so sorry for what you went through and that she didn’t believe you. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Love2dance

[GeeGolly]

I work with a lot of adult survivors of trauma. How JB & M handled the molestations was better than what happens in many families. Just imagine a little girl who wasn't believed and life in the family goes on as usual and compare that to the Duggar girls who were believed, their brother was sent away for 6 months and they were given a bedroom with doors that lock. And as parents, JB & M should care about Josh too, they're his parents. And it's not unusual for survivors to care about an abuser that they're related to, and they shouldn't feel shamed for doing so.

IMO, JB & M have done more harm to their girls by raising them to be dependent females who fear the non-Fundy world and think their primary role is breeding God's army. 

And trauma looks different for everyone. Think of the devastation of the Abaco Islands. Some folks will panic for years to come (or forever) at the drop of rain or the sound of wind. Some folks might become storm chasers. Some folks will truly think the storm was an anomaly and never think twice about the weather. Most folks will have some initial fear of weather that will eventually fade, but maintain a healthy awareness of the devastation that can occur during a severe weather event.

The Duggar girls are no different. How they process the molestations and how they were raised, will be unique to them. There are no shoulds with feelings and reactions. Not all survivors of trauma become depressed, anxious or live with PTSD.

 

[mynextmistake]

21 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I work with a lot of adult survivors of trauma. How JB & M handled the molestations was better than what happens in many families. Just imagine a little girl who wasn't believed and life in the family goes on as usual and compare that to the Duggar girls who were believed, their brother was sent away for 6 months and they were given a bedroom with doors that lock. And as parents, JB & M should care about Josh too, they're his parents. And it's not unusual for survivors to care about an abuser that they're related to, and they shouldn't feel shamed for doing so.

IMO, JB & M have done more harm to their girls by raising them to be dependent females who fear the non-Fundy world and think their primary role is breeding God's army.

 

Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive, though. Jim Bob and Michelle can be shitty parents in more than one way. 

Josh wasn’t sent away until after the incident with Joy. What JB and Michelle did before that was undoubtedly better than what some families do, but that doesn’t mean it was laudable or even adequate. They had the girls stand up in front of the church and forgive Josh, and then they stripped *them* of any vestiges of privacy by shoving them all in a room together and telling them to lock the door. Josh got to strut around the house like the prince Michelle seems to think he is while his victims had to lock themselves up to feel safe. How backwards is that? 

And of course they should care about Josh because they’re his parents. But caring for a child doesn’t mean rescuing them from the repercussions of their actions. Jim Bob and Michelle clearly thought it did, because they decided to “care” for Josh by locking up the girls and imposing basically no consequences on Josh. IMO truly caring for him would have meant getting him some treatment. Perhaps if they had done that, they could have spared five-year-old Joy — also their child, who they had a duty to protect — from being molested while she trustingly sat in her brother’s lap to be read a story. 

But they didn’t do that. Because hey, Joy’s just a girl, right? They’re a dime a dozen, nobody really cares what happens to them. The important one here was their precious firstborn son, Josh. 🙄 

[kokapetl]

5 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I work with a lot of adult survivors of trauma. How JB & M handled the molestations was better than what happens in many families. Just imagine a little girl who wasn't believed and life in the family goes on as usual and compare that to the Duggar girls who were believed, their brother was sent away for 6 months and they were given a bedroom with doors that lock. And as parents, JB & M should care about Josh too, they're his parents. And it's not unusual for survivors to care about an abuser that they're related to, and they shouldn't feel shamed for doing so.

IMO, JB & M have done more harm to their girls by raising them to be dependent females who fear the non-Fundy world and think their primary role is breeding God's army. 

And trauma looks different for everyone. Think of the devastation of the Abaco Islands. Some folks will panic for years to come (or forever) at the drop of rain or the sound of wind. Some folks might become storm chasers. Some folks will truly think the storm was an anomaly and never think twice about the weather. Most folks will have some initial fear of weather that will eventually fade, but maintain a healthy awareness of the devastation that can occur during a severe weather event.

The Duggar girls are no different. How they process the molestations and how they were raised, will be unique to them. There are no shoulds with feelings and reactions. Not all survivors of trauma become depressed, anxious or live with PTSD.

 

I agree 100 percent with what you’ve said. 

[GeeGolly]

20 minutes ago, mynextmistake said:

Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive, though. Jim Bob and Michelle can be shitty parents in more than one way. 

Josh wasn’t sent away until after the incident with Joy. What JB and Michelle did before that was undoubtedly better than what some families do, but that doesn’t mean it was laudable or even adequate. They had the girls stand up in front of the church and forgive Josh, and then they stripped *them* of any vestiges of privacy by shoving them all in a room together and telling them to lock the door. Josh got to strut around the house like the prince Michelle seems to think he is while his victims had to lock themselves up to feel safe. How backwards is that? 

And of course they should care about Josh because they’re his parents. But caring for a child doesn’t mean rescuing them from the repercussions of their actions. Jim Bob and Michelle clearly thought it did, because they decided to “care” for Josh by locking up the girls and imposing basically no consequences on Josh. IMO truly caring for him would have meant getting him some treatment. Perhaps if they had done that, they could have spared five-year-old Joy — also their child, who they had a duty to protect — from being molested while she trustingly sat in her brother’s lap to be read a story. 

But they didn’t do that. Because hey, Joy’s just a girl, right? They’re a dime a dozen, nobody really cares what happens to them. The important one here was their precious firstborn son, Josh. 🙄 

I hear you. I by no means think JB and M are great parents, but most parents do the best they can with what they know and what they have available. And in the case of JB & M, with this situation, I believe they did that.

There are parents out there who do know better and do nothing.

I don't believe JB & M let things slide with no worries because eh, they're only girls, I think they fucked up by not handling better it sooner, but I think they thought they had handled it. When they realized they didn't, they finally did something. I believe Josh was never really trusted again by his parents or his siblings, and being sent away for six months was a punishment.

And IMO, the girls weren't locked in their room, they were given the power and control to lock folks out of their room. For many abuse survivors having power and control is huge.

 

[MsJamieDornan]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

There are parents out there who do know better and do nothing.

That , in no way, makes how they handled Josh correct.

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, MsJamieDornan said:

That , in no way, makes how they handled Josh correct.

My goodness that is not what I said.

However I will say there is no correct way to handle these situations. In the real world things are messy and resources are in short supply. And there are so many variables to the hows and whys to determine the process and the outcomes. I hear folks post a lot of should haves, would haves and could haves, and in my experience working for years and years with adult survivors of trauma, my familiarity/collaboration with the courts, law enforcement, mandated reporters and DCF, I know there just isn't a perfect laid-out path to follow for, anyone.

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by GeeGolly

[GeeGolly]

I came back to add one more thing. It doesn't really matter if I think JB & M did something to handle the molestations and others think they did nothing or made it worse.

The only thing that truly matters is what Jill, Jessa, Jinger and Joy think. Their thoughts may change over time and their thoughts and feelings may not align with each other, but their thoughts in feelings are their perspective and their truth and that's whose opinions matter.

[floridamom]

It was mentioned earlier on one of these threads about Amy playing with her Duggar cousins when they were younger. The Duggar girls were NOT allowed to visit  Amy at her house at all. If Amy wanted to play with them, SHE had to go to THEIR HOUSE and they were monitored by one or both of the parents. This, clearly was so that none of the Duggar girls would ever tell Amy about Josh's heinous actions against them. Amy did not know about the molestation when it became public.  It also was so the girls were never exposed to the regular world; Amy's music, reading material and/or TV. How awful was this life for them? Since Jinger was approached in the laundry room, this discredits their statements that they were asleep and didn't know what was occurring. Bullshit nonsense, outright lies on their part. We all know that they were coached not only by their parents on what to say but Jim Bob's attorney as well. Heck, he probably was sitting in the house within earshot listening to their statements for any damage control.

On another note, Derick was not clear about who it was that pressured appearances on the show..TLC or Jim Bob? Both? He didn't say. If the network ONLY pressured them to appear, then that's not on JB. Derick needs to either 'say it or not say anything public at all.' He thinks he's being cunning about how he releases information. He's not. He's playing games.

[Minivanessa]

10 hours ago, CouchTater said:

Not to make light of a heavy, dark and sad situation....but in the interview, both Jessa and Jill said "whenever this happened," or "whenever I learned this," etc. , when what they really meant was "when" something happened.   It drives me nuts when (ever, hee) someone uses this misphrasing.

I understand. But it's not uncommon in certain areas; I heard it spoken by people in Oklahoma, next door to Arkansas. People with college degrees and good working brains. Maybe it's somewhat of a regional thing.

9 hours ago, Heathen said:

I suspect that the girls would have said Santa Claus molested them, if Jim Bob ordered them to say so. I've never believed that their accounts to Megyn Kelly even closely resembled what really happened. 

I agree they minimized things in that interview. I don't doubt Jill's tears were real. I think she was probably trying hard to keep it together and play the role she'd been ordered to perform. I seriously doubt that JB wanted a crying daughter in that interview which was supposed to be all about how wonderful things were now, nothing to see here, this stuff happens in a lot of families, we have Jesus, and let's just move along. So what if her tears in the TH about the falling towel rack, a year or two later, were different? She was, I'm sure, pretty much encouraged to talk about the terror and drah-mah in that interview. Different situations. 

[farmgal4]

9 hours ago, Heathen said:

I have a vague memory that Smuggar had his own bedroom at the TTH (they called it the audio-visual room or some such). I'm wondering if there were two reasons why Smuggar and only Smuggar had his own bedroom: 1. They didn't want him teaching his brothers anything; 2. They were afraid he might molest his own brothers. 

I think he may have had his own room so they could lock him in it at night.  Problem solved by doing that.