Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[humbleopinion]

Tony Kornheiser of Pardon The Interruption on ESPN was grossly misinformed when he defended Josh to keep his job.

Why would TK and the producers of a sports show want to align themselves with a incestous monster?

Shame on ESPN.

Google Kornheiser defends Duggar.

Last Friday's PTI show.

[marylennox]

I have to get this off my chest. I am not sure who will agree with me, but I'm going to say it anyway (and maybe blog about it because this is the 21st century and I CAN). Firstly, the whole thing is reprehensible, but what I am really upset by is the number of uber liberals who are pretty much happy this is happening. And this is coming from me, who is an uber liberal.

 

Some of my friends are offended by their religion in general, so they are pretty much excited that they are getting the boot and posting gleefully about how they get what they deserve and how they don't understand how I ever watched the show (as a woman, they asked, how could I watch a family that devalues women?) and that they are sooo happy that these "bigots" get their comeuppance. I get that people are upset about their rallying against gay rights, but they are an incredibly right-wing Christian family. Did they think they were going to somehow suddenly support gay rights? People have also been "offended" all over my newsfeed about some of the dumb things Jessa has said (i.e. athiests don't exist, etc.)...but WHAT DO THEY THINK she is going to say?!

 

I feel most sorry for the girls, because they cannot hide their name redactions. The rest of the kids also have had the rug pulled out from under them as the gravy trian has suddenly (or most probably) stopped...and I can't imagine the guilt the girls must feel (hopefully they don't, but growing up in that environment, it is up in the air). They've lost a lot in a matter of days and been publicly outed as victims when they may not have wanted to be. And people are celebrating this because they are right wing Christians and they've always "found them creepy"?!  One of my friends wrote, "I feel positively gleeful that this family and their nasty patriarchal religion are being shown the door" and "I'm starting to wonder if you really understand how vile and hurtful their beliefs are, or if you still think they're just a cute, wacky tv family."

 

Some of my family is Amish, which very easily allows for abuse of children and women because of the same-ish principles at play here. I think that's partly why I feel so sorry for the girls and why I feel as though all of this is incredibly unfair to them. I don't really care if they are bigots, they are still human beings. I would be just as upset if this were revealed in some family as truly awful as the Westboro Baptist Church clan.

 

Does any of this make sense?

[JobieLyne]

Mindy, I'm a long time lurker here, as I was on TWoP. This is my 1st ever post. I just had to come out of lurking to tell you how sad I am that you had to go through all you did. It took a lot of courage to come forward and tell us all you went through. I'm glad you felt you could, and that you are doing better at this point in your life. ((((HUGS))))

[ToukieSmith]

I guess Bob Dylan was wrong.  Some people apparently do need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

 

Its all good.  There are always going to be those folks who have to check the Weather Channel instead of looking out their window;-).

 

Forgiving someone does not mean they should not go to jail for a crime that they committed.

Edited May 26, 2015 by ToukieSmith

[autumnh]

My husband just said to me (he doesn't watch but he has heard about it) "I bet CPS is side-eyeing Josh and his wife now.

 

Once this sort of thing is exposed it is like a house of cards.

Edited May 26, 2015 by autumnh

[okerry]

I certainly agree that the bizarre and repressive attitudes towards sex in the Duggar house contributed to what happened to the girls, But I suspect that even more sinister is the narcissism and entitlement that Josh apparently acquired growing up, and still has.

 

Narcissists only see other people in terms of, "What can you do for me?" They do not see others as humans in their own right and have zero empathy for anyone else. It sure sounds like these nutball parents fed Josh's entitlement to the max, until the narcissism was in full bloom.

 

Plenty of people grow up in weird and sexually repressive homes and don't molest their siblings. But combine that with full-blown narcissism  and you've got a disaster waiting to happen.

I honestly thought more information would come out today. I thought the magazines would be feverishly working to uncover new information. I also thought someone in the know would definitely sell their story. I wonder if the Duggars agreed to confess to allegations that they couldn't be charged for in exchange for nothing being released that could result in charges. They confessed rather quickly.

Yup. I'll be the deals and offers are flying fast and furious right now, with plenty of tabloid and other news outlets doing their very best to get somebody to spill the goods for a nice paycheck. If "Alice" can be found and verified, she'll be a millionaire.

[HumblePi]

Me, I wonder if it doesn't have something to do with the fact that according to the press release someone linked, the woman who's running the asylum got the big job because of the ratings she got with the Duggars. If they start shutting down shows on TLC where you can tell it's not the middle of the 12th century because everyone's wearing synthetic fibers, what has she got?

Those high paying jobs are the first to be eliminated when the shit hits the fan. They got all the glory but they're the first one taken down in a storm.

[JoanArc]

 

I think back to that little house they lived in prior to TLC building their shiny new house....how could JB and Michelle not have known?

"None so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see." - Matthew Henry

[marylennox]

Mindy! I am so sorry all of this happened to you as well. BIG HUGS.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Tony Kornheiser of Pardon The Interruption on ESPN was grossly misinformed when he defended Josh to keep his job.

Why would TK and the producers of a sports show want to align themselves with a incestous monster?

Shame on ESPN.

Google Kornheiser defends Duggar.

Last Friday's PTI show.

You can hear the clip here

FYI - Kornheiser said this on his radio show, not on PTI.

[JennyMominFL]

I have to get this off my chest. I am not sure who will agree with me, but I'm going to say it anyway (and maybe blog about it because this is the 21st century and I CAN). Firstly, the whole thing is reprehensible, but what I am really upset by is the number of uber liberals who are pretty much happy this is happening. And this is coming from me, who is an uber liberal.

 

Some of my friends are offended by their religion in general, so they are pretty much excited that they are getting the boot and posting gleefully about how they get what they deserve and how they don't understand how I ever watched the show (as a woman, they asked, how could I watch a family that devalues women?) and that they are sooo happy that these "bigots" get their comeuppance. I get that people are upset about their rallying against gay rights, but they are an incredibly right-wing Christian family. Did they think they were going to somehow suddenly support gay rights? People have also been "offended" all over my newsfeed about some of the dumb things Jessa has said (i.e. athiests don't exist, etc.)...but WHAT DO THEY THINK she is going to say?!

 

I feel most sorry for the girls, because they cannot hide their name redactions. The rest of the kids also have had the rug pulled out from under them as the gravy trian has suddenly (or most probably) stopped...and I can't imagine the guilt the girls must feel (hopefully they don't, but growing up in that environment, it is up in the air). They've lost a lot in a matter of days and been publicly outed as victims when they may not have wanted to be. And people are celebrating this because they are right wing Christians and they've always "found them creepy"?!  One of my friends wrote, "I feel positively gleeful that this family and their nasty patriarchal religion are being shown the door" and "I'm starting to wonder if you really understand how vile and hurtful their beliefs are, or if you still think they're just a cute, wacky tv family."

 

Some of my family is Amish, which very easily allows for abuse of children and women because of the same-ish principles at play here. I think that's partly why I feel so sorry for the girls and why I feel as though all of this is incredibly unfair to them. I don't really care if they are bigots, they are still human beings. I would be just as upset if this were revealed in some family as truly awful as the Westboro Baptist Church clan.

 

Does any of this make sense?

You have a right to your opinions and you seem to express  them in a rational way...but. If you believe the reasons some wanted to see the Duggars exposed ,are as simple as them being uber religious and anti gay, you are simply wrong. I mean, I'm sure it's true in a few case. For most of us  this goes way beyond the homophobia and  right wing fundamentalism. And most of us who wanted the parents exposed certainly did not want it to be for these reasons

Edited May 26, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[humbleopinion]

ElectBoog-That's what I meant to type but my brain intervened.

Thanks for the catch.

[marylennox]

You have a right to your opinions and you seem to express  them in a rational way...but. If you believe the reasons some wanted to see the Duggars exposed ,are as simple as them being uber religious and anti gay, you are simply wrong. I mean, I'm sure it's true in a few case. For most of us  this goes way beyond the homophobia and  right wing fundamentalism. And most of us who wanted the parents exposed certainly did not want it to be for these reasons

Can you explain what it goes further into? It seems like most of the people on my Facebook feed are really happy this whole event happened because now their "homophobic asses are off the television."

 

TBH, I always kind of knew there was something going on (not this per se, but I always knew there was something a bit weird under wraps), but I am NOT glad this happened (the molestation and the girls being outed as victims...I don't really care if Josh and Michelle a JB are called out).

[McManda]

I just cannot wrap my head around how it cannot be understood HOW this will affect these women for the rest of their lives. You do NOT forget molestation or sexual abuse. It has not one damn thing to do with religion, or the bible...it's about our moral compass and being human beings.

 

I don't think people are underestimating the impact of this on his victims, but at the same time, justice won't make them forget or fix what they've been through, either. Vigilante justice won't make it better. Putting him in jail, especially if they've already made whatever peace they can with it, won't accomplish anything except for giving the whole thing a "yes, that's justice!" ending to people that aren't even involved.

 

IMO - and this doesn't mean to discount anything that his victims are feeling - this has turned into felling like a witch hunt. We don't have indication that Josh is still a threat (I think that's what I don't understand the most - there's been nothing to suggest that outside of those 5 or 6 months Josh did anything wrong, or that he's a threat to his family or his sisters at the present). Of course, I guess it could be argued that we don't have any proof that he's reformed, or that he won't do it again, but if that's the case how would anyone fix something that happened 12 years ago? Or if they can't fix it - which, admittedly, he can't - how does one move on? No one can; not him, not his victims. That's what bothers me the most. Especially because he was 15. That's awfully young to make a mistake that no one will allow you to try to repent for.  The fact is, the best justice is what allows for his victims to be able to live with themselves and what can make him a better person, not whatever the social justice people think he deserves.

 

[Of course, that doesn't mean we can't think he's disgusting and hypocritical that the show should be cancelled and everything that goes along with the reports. That's personal prerogative.]

[Julia]

Behr Paints has also bailed on the show.

 

OK. That? I can tell you is a huge deal. Because Behr is Home Depot is Ken Langone, who recently let it be known that if the new pope didn't stop being less right wing than the previous pope (and keep in mind, up to this point he said we had to do everything the pope said because he was the pope), american billionaires were going to stop donating. 

 

If Ken Langone bailed on patriarchal PR, things have gotten real. Except for things, read more digestive things.

[Rhondinella]

The mods have concluded that ANY of the following actions going forward will result in an automatic 3-day suspension, and your post(s) will be deleted.  These are mostly things you've been warned about more than once in the last couple of days. Please read and behave accordingly.  THIS IS YOUR FINAL WARNING.

 

1) The mods have decided that the "it was a youthful mistake; no it was a crime!" discussion has gone far enough.  Everything that can be said has, and posting about it now serves no purpose except to try to rile up posters who disagree with you.  No one here is denying that Josh's actions were heinous and deserving of punishment.  Whether one refers to these actions  as a "crime" or a "mistake" for the most part is just a matter of semantics.  So please, FROM THIS POINT FORWARD CEASE AND DESIST ON THIS TOPIC.  

 

2) We've repeatedly asked people to NOT attempt to identify the 5th person who was victimized, or specifically nail down which four of the five daughters were abused.  Doing so only victimizes them again and serves no honorable purpose.  We've had some people not heed this admonition, however and those posts have been hidden or deleted.

 

3) Same song, third verse:  Stop talking about the possibilities that Josh may have been abused himself and speculation as to the perpetrator, and any and all speculation on whether Josh victimized any of his brothers, and whether any of the other brothers are also abusers.  We have NO credible information about any of this, and we WILL NOT accuse people on these boards without evidence, no matter how much we may personally despise them. 

 

Added: 10:44 PM:

4) Please refrain from psycho-analyzing any of these people. Few of us are licensed, trained therapists, and even those who are have not examined them first-hand and should reserve public judgment. Speculation about mental illness, past abuse, etc. easily turns from speculation into "fact" and we don't want or need that.  Saying that so and so seems to be struggling, or seems to have issues is fine.  Trying to go more deeply into those issues and where they come from is not for us to do.

 

Are you sensing a theme here?  Good.  You all are intelligent people.  More than smart enough to read and follow instructions.  Please do so or suffer the consequences.

 

Signed--

 

Your Tired and Increasingly Cranky Mods

[marylennox]

I think there are other offensive things about this family. Namely, the misogyny, the smugness, the way they take away freedom of choice from their adult children in terms of how they live their lives, etc. I don't watch the show but I'm sure others can chime in.

[snip] Without excusing them, that is hardly unique to the Duggars. Look at Orthodox Jews, the Amish, many Muslim sects....

Edited May 26, 2015 by Rhondinella
don't use "um" or "errrr" at beginning

[truthtalk2014]

There hasn't been any public statement made from Oprah Winfrey or her production company Harpo. This is disturbing because if Oprah Winfrey was aware that the Duggars had a child molester living within their home wouldn't you think she would have spoken up about it? She is a victim of sexual abuse and I feel the omission on her part to expose this publicly makes her as responsible as TLC.

I have to give a hip hip hooray to Oprah.  Considering the  number of emails she gets, I really would like to thank her for doing something about this particular one. 

 

You know she gets all kinds of crap emails and faxes.  She must have investigated in some form and thus contacted the proper authorities.   

 

I heard that she actually did the interview and hosted the Duggars in Chicago for a week and that there was a disagreement with the way the interview would be edited, etc.  Boob doesn't want some woman telling him anything you know. 

 

 

 

I think that after filming, Oprah heard the disturbing news- investigated- and said NO WAY am I putting this on my show.  

[JennyMominFL]

Can you explain what it goes further into? It seems like most of the people on my Facebook feed are really happy this whole event happened because now their "homophobic asses are off the television."

 

TBH, I always kind of knew there was something going on (not this per se, but I always knew there was something a bit weird under wraps), but I am NOT glad this happened (the molestation and the girls being outed as victims...I don't really care if Josh and Michelle a JB are called out).

There are plenty of testimonies out there from people who have left Gothard and ATI, And lived under the Pearl rulebook.  This goes beyong just the Duggars. They prove this cult is dangerous. These organizations breed a community where women and girls are ripe for sexual abuse. There leader Gothard has so many accusations of sexual abuse and harassment that they go back to the early 80s. These people are dangerous. Their beliefs are dangerous.  As someone who has spent some time studying cults, there are a million warning signs. Sadly, I  don't think the Duggars are an isolated case at all. They are the tip of a very dangerous iceberg. I have been waiting for this cult to be exposed to the mainstream for a long time. And the Duggars are their poster family. I hurt for the women and girls in these groups, along with the boys who are essentially taught they are all just one step from rapists and that it women's job to keep them from offending,

   Yes, I dislike their homophobia, but that just the tip of the iceberg. These people are a danger to themselves and other. I think a lot more things will come ou now that people are examining these groups.

  I'm OK if you want to label me intolerant. I am  OK with  being  called intolerant of homophobes, abusers, sexists, sexual harassers , child molesters, victim blamers etc. I'm sure I'm forgetting some things, but that's what I believe these groups support or produce.   

 

ETA, I saw the warning above, after I posted. If this is considered OT, I'm sorry

Edited May 27, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[RandomX]

I am sadly waiting for the next shoe to drop. I suspect the survivors named in the poorly redacted report are not the only victims. There seems to be a disturbing pattern of escalation by Josh and I fear that he learned over time how to not get caught.

I always thought the show would end in wreckage, but I guess I believed it would be a long slow decline of failed marriages, depression and substance abuse as hundreds of grandchildren were born to uneducated, sheltered children who have no clue how to survive in Real Life. I didn't foresee a trainwreck this sudden and catastrophic, even though clues were there.

[Bella]

Tony Kornheiser of Pardon The Interruption on ESPN was grossly misinformed when he defended Josh to keep his job.

Why would TK and the producers of a sports show want to align themselves with a incestous monster?

Shame on ESPN.

Google Kornheiser defends Duggar.

Last Friday's PTI show.

 

I've spoken to Kornheiser at length over the phone. He has all the common sense of a balloon and the social skills of a toad.

[SnarkyMcSnarkerson]

I don't think people are underestimating the impact of this on his victims, but at the same time, justice won't make them forget or fix what they've been through, either. Vigilante justice won't make it better. Putting him in jail, especially if they've already made whatever peace they can with it, won't accomplish anything except for giving the whole thing a "yes, that's justice!" ending to people that aren't even involved.

 

IMO - and this doesn't mean to discount anything that his victims are feeling - this has turned into felling like a witch hunt. We don't have indication that Josh is still a threat (I think that's what I don't understand the most - there's been nothing to suggest that outside of those 5 or 6 months Josh did anything wrong, or that he's a threat to his family or his sisters at the present). Of course, I guess it could be argued that we don't have any proof that he's reformed, or that he won't do it again, but if that's the case how would anyone fix something that happened 12 years ago? Or if they can't fix it - which, admittedly, he can't - how does one move on? No one can; not him, not his victims. That's what bothers me the most. Especially because he was 15. That's awfully young to make a mistake that no one will allow you to try to repent for.  The fact is, the best justice is what allows for his victims to be able to live with themselves and what can make him a better person, not whatever the social justice people think he deserves.

 

[Of course, that doesn't mean we can't think he's disgusting and hypocritical that the show should be cancelled and everything that goes along with the reports. That's personal prerogative.]

As a survivor of molestation (similar to this situation where the perpetrator was also a minor), I can tell you that in my experience it would be so validating for my perpetrator to be held accountable for his crimes. The few people I've told have been mostly supportive but to know that you're not crazy and what happened wasn't okay would be amazing. If that's what the victims want I see no issue with it.

[Rhondinella]

Please be sure you have thoroughly read the post that was just pinned at the top of the page.  Thank you.

[Chicklet]

 

He has all the common sense of a balloon and the social skills of a toad.He has all the common sense of a balloon and the social skills of a toad.

Bella I think that describe the Duggars too. Amphibians of a feather....

[McManda]

If that's what the victims want I see no issue with it.

 

But we don't know that's what they want, that's the problem. If they want him prosecuted, so be it. But we have no indication that that would help their well-being and instead it seems like this situation has become 1000x times worse because of inaccurate reporting and assumptions. It's become about personal vindication as result of their public persona ("always knew something was amiss with that family!"), which is the absolute last thing it should be about.

[Gianthambeast]

You have a right to your opinions and you seem to express  them in a rational way...but. If you believe the reasons some wanted to see the Duggars exposed ,are as simple as them being uber religious and anti gay, you are simply wrong. I mean, I'm sure it's true in a few case. For most of us  this goes way beyond the homophobia and  right wing fundamentalism. And most of us who wanted the parents exposed certainly did not want it to be for these reasons

They're not even good representatives of Christian values, or even conservative values.  They are radical Gothardites. People who think that this is the librul media versus All-American Christian values need to look at the reality of these people, not what they think they symbolize. 

[marylennox]

Well, when a family from of those groups has a reality show and makes a career out of showing us what "we" (the viewing public) are doing wrong then I'm sure they'll receive the same criticism.

 

Is that really what they were doing? Or was it a weird documentary that happened every year and then got to be a TV show because the America liked to watch them? I don't really recall feeling like I was being told my life was wrong watching their show, but that is just me.

 

I don't think this is the liberal media vs. All-American Christian values in any shape or fashion. What I do know is that some very liberal people I know (and I consider myself very liberal and don't identify as Christian, btw) are "gleeful" as they put it about this whole situation. I am concerned about the victims and them suddenly being out of a future and an income and being humiliated....the people I know don't really care because they are "bigots."

[Grits]

I will not watch TLC until they cancel 19 Kids and Counting. This is the only way that I can support the children who are victims of a horrible crime.

[Chicklet]

I think we need to remember that the Duggars themselves caused this. Viewers did not. Without the actions and in-actions none of this would be even discussed.

[JenCarroll]

I may be in a minority here and will probably get thumped pretty good by the board members.  But that's okay.  I can take it.

 

I am a Christian.  I was a carnal Christian for many years before I developed a relationship with God through Christ.  A carnal Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ and what He did for the world, yet continues to live life by doing whatever one wants to do without the feeling of guilt or consequences.  That was me.   I believed, yet I had not submitted my life to God through Christ.  I didn't care who I hurt as long as it felt good to me.  I was selfish.  I just didn't care.

 

Having said this, I understand where Josh is coming from.  He did a terrible thing.  He was young, he was self-absorbed, he was only thinking of himself and what satisfied him.  He didn't think or care about the scarring of the victims.  Josh repented.  He apologized to God, his parents and the victims.  All forgave him and sought help for him and the victims (at least that's what I understand).  And like Ben's father said, when we refuse to forgive we are putting ourselves in God's seat.  How can we (Christians) NOT forgive when Christ forgave us?

 

Does this mean I feel we should just forget about it and pretend nothing happened?  No.  What I am saying is the person who has no sin at all should be the one to cast the first stone.  That person is Jesus Christ.  Our acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior means He has forgiven ALL our sins, past, present, and future.  We will find no stone in his hand, nor should there be one in ours.

I don't think people choosing to forgive or not forgive Josh is actually relevant. If it's important for you, in the context of your faith, to do so, then do so. It may be that the CEO of Payless also has forgiveness in his or her heart for Josh, but s/he still needs to withdraw the company's financial support for this show. Jim Bob and Michelle have been shown to be -- at the very, very least -- frauds, liars and irresponsible parents. Whether Josh has been forgiven or not, responsible people need to stop enabling his parents' hypocrisy.

I want to believe that everyone posting here understands that we all come from different backgrounds, and that some of us are not Christians of any kind.

[marylennox]

As a survivor of molestation (similar to this situation where the perpetrator was also a minor), I can tell you that in my experience it would be so validating for my perpetrator to be held accountable for his crimes. The few people I've told have been mostly supportive but to know that you're not crazy and what happened wasn't okay would be amazing. If that's what the victims want I see no issue with it.

 

I agree with this, but we have no idea what the victims want at this point. I heard that one of them wanted the narrative destroyed.

I don't think people choosing to forgive or not forgive Josh is actually relevant. If it's important for you, in the context of your faith, to do so, then do so. It may be that the CEO of Payless also has forgiveness in his or her heart for Josh, but s/he still needs to withdraw the company's financial support for this show. Jim Bob and Michelle have been shown to be -- at the very, very least -- frauds, liars and irresponsible parents. Whether Josh has been forgiven or not, responsible people need to stop enabling his parents' hypocrisy.

I want to believe that everyone posting here understands that we all come from different backgrounds, and that some of us are not Christians of any kind.

 

Didn't people already think they were irresponsible for being dumb enough to have 19 kids? First red flag! ha

[Gianthambeast]

 What I do know is that some very liberal people I know (and I consider myself very liberal and don't identify as Christian, btw) are "gleeful" as they put it about this whole situation. I am concerned about the victims and them suddenly being out of a future and an income and being humiliated....the people I know don't really care because they are "bigots."

 

 

No, I get what you're saying.  Anyone using this to score political points is misguided and needs to remind themselves about the women who have been victimized.  I think most  people talk about the anti-LBGT comments made by Duggars because of the galling hypocrisy of it all.  How can you call out someone else as a potential molester when you yourself know that you molested your own sisters?

 

Edited May 27, 2015 by Gianthambeast

[bencr]

Can you explain what it goes further into? It seems like most of the people on my Facebook feed are really happy this whole event happened because now their "homophobic asses are off the television."

 

Even if there weren't a ton of other reasons for wanting this show off the air, getting their "homophobic asses off the television" is enough for me. I don't understand why TLC would provide a forum to such a bigoted brood in the first place. I guess the LGBT community is the last group of people you can disparage as sinful and still have a national TV show.

 

If this family were smart, they never would have expressed their views about abortion and homosexuality in public. They could have stayed quiet and we probably would have figured out where they stand anyway. But they chose to do so, and they've made enemies. And now they've given those enemies ammunition to use against them on the very issue where they have been so judgmental of others -- sexual mores.

 

So I think there are plenty of reasons to get this family off the airwaves, but even if there weren't, their homophobia is enough for me.

Edited May 27, 2015 by bencr

[Morgalisa]

 

If "Alice" can be found and verified, she'll be a millionaire.

I wonder if Alice sent Oprah the e-mail or letter about Josh.  As another poster said, the Oprah show had to receive a massive amount of mail.  I wonder how they ever discovered this one lone piece of mail.

[cereality]

Looks like Josh is back in DC -- there was a shot of him on Extra on NBC carrying Michael through National Airport. Didn't say anything besides "no comment" (I don't think -- I didn't hear anything), though he was smirking/didn't look particularly upset or nervous or anything.

[Chicklet]

The Duggars wanted  to use this show as their ministry so they had to get their message out, to bring their warped version of Christianity to the masses and hope to bring more deluded souls into the fold. They couldn't resist so their eagerness and 100% confidence that they knew best assured them they were in the right. So pride goeth before a fall or somesuch. Hubris maybe? Stupidity? All of it played a part in this tragedy.

 

I swear I did not go to the SODRT, even graduated from a really big university. Full of smart people. New is not knew. Ugh.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Chicklet

[Churchhoney]

I am concerned about the victims and them suddenly being out of a future and an income

I do get the rest of what you're saying, but I think this argument really needs closer examination. Nobody should really be counting on reality tv to be their futures and their incomes. And the longer a bunch of children, teens and 20-somethings imagine that this is their future -- with the freebie Macbooks and so on -- the harder it's going to be for them to adjust to the real world that they all WILL have to deal with eventually, seems to me.

 

Plus, I just don't see how being on tv and having to "act" your real life -- with retakes and pressure to smile and be amusing in talking-head segments and so on -- has ever been good for abuse victims, recovering abusers or children of any sort. Many people have long wondered why Jana seems spiritless, why Joy, Jinger and Hannie have seemed increasingly bummed (and, yes, I do read too much about this show -- I know all this and have virtually never actually watched it -- sheesh) -- and I'd argue that maybe it's this. EVen in the best of circumstances, the "life" you live as a reality tv person is going to be phony. And in this case, there's clearly a lot of pressure -- well meaning or otherwise -- from their parents to live up to that family brand. That just can't be good for those kids. Especially for the older girls and Josh, who are most affected by this situation and who probably would benefit from living a more authentic and honest life rather than having to put on a show for years and years, whether they all realize that or not.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Cherrio]

OK. That? I can tell you is a huge deal. Because Behr is Home Depot is Ken Langone, who recently let it be known that if the new pope didn't stop being less right wing than the previous pope (and keep in mind, up to this point he said we had to do everything the pope said because he was the pope), american billionaires were going to stop donating. 

 

If Ken Langone bailed on patriarchal PR, things have gotten real. Except for things, read more digestive things.

I am a Depot girl and a huge Behr fan. I spend a lot of money there and also bought a lot of paint. Best paint ever so I am happy about this.

                     Since I have decided to not watch TLC at all anymore, I will boycott all sponsors.

[xls]

I wounder if JB and Michelle would pretend like their eldest child didn't exist and continue the show without Josh?

Of course they would, for the money!

[marylennox]

I do get the rest of what you're saying, but I think this argument really needs closer examination. Nobody should really be counting on reality tv to be their futures and their incomes. And the longer a bunch of children, teens and 20-somethings imagine that this is their future -- with the freebie Macbooks and so on -- the harder it's going to be for them to adjust to the real world that they all WILL have to deal with eventually, seems to me.

 

Plus, I just don't see how being on tv and having to "act" your real life -- with retakes and pressure to smile and be amusing in talking-head segments and so on -- has ever been good for abuse victims, recovering abusers or children of any sort. Many people have long wondered why Jana seems spiritless, why Joy, Jinger and Hannie have seemed increasingly bummed (and, yes, I do read too much about this show -- I know all this and have virtually never actually watched it -- sheesh) -- and I'd argue that maybe it's this. EVen in the best of circumstances, the "life" you live as a reality tv person is going to be phony. And in this case, there's clearly a lot of pressure -- well meaning or otherwise -- from their parents to live up to that family brand. That just can't be good for those kids. Especially for the older girls and Josh, who are most affected by this situation and who probably would benefit from living a more authentic and honest life rather than having to put on a show for years and years, whether they all realize that or not.

 

I FULLY agree, however they are not prepared as they were not allowed to have any education. So what do they have to fall back on? Jill was kind of thinking of becoming a nurse but never did. Jana is like an assistant doula or something. Jessa...has no known skills besides being hot (at least that they've mentioned, although they did show her legitimately teaching first grade for J'ichelle and Jim Bob). Jinger, at least, has her photography.

[murf1013]

"Anyone would molest children if they had the opportunity and no consequences."

Really? No. Just ... no. I can't with these people. Those poor girls.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/05/26/duggar-relative-anyone-would-molest-kids-given-opportunity-and-no-consequences/

Edited May 27, 2015 by murf1013

[lonerafter]

This is honestly so much, I hope the victims are dealing with it well, I can't imagine how awful it must be to have that dredged up again. I started watching this show whenever it became an actual show (I may have seen the specials if they were on Netflix, I can't really remember now, the past few seasons are kind of blurred together in my mind) and this is just crazy. I can't believe that a couple of weeks ago I was thinking that Josh and Anna seemed like nice people who may have a chance breaking away from the Duggar cult. 

I've seen some people say maybe he was brainwashed/taught that that kind of behavior was okay, and while we won't really know it, I kind of doubt it. I remember when the FLDS church was in the spotlight a few years ago it prompted me to read some of the books put out by women who had escaped that culture. Most of them said that, while they were treated awfully before marriage and seen as second-class citizens who should keep their mouths shut, and other typical gender stereotypes were enforced, that something like sexual assault wasn't cool (assuming they weren't married, the books made it clear that once you were married your body wasn't your own). I am not QF, but I do have fundie family and was homeschooled* (though not for religious reasons), and therefore a part of many homeschool groups with fundies, and I think the same tends to be true. Assaults obviously happen, but they aren't really encouraged out of marriage. They see it as normal to do that to your wife, because that's what she "owes" you, but if you do that to someone else you've "ruined" someone's future wife, and then they sweep it under the rug, it isn't normalized. I just want to say I'm not defending this way of thinking, I'm just saying that because of this way of thinking I don't think that they say this behavior as normal.

Also, I feel that his actions were very deliberate, not just 'curiosity', these were girls 6 years his junior or more, if he were 'just curious' he probably could have found someone his own age equally as curious at church or one of their functions, and done the typical teenage "I show you mine you show me yours"

I can't imagine how terrible it must feel to know that your parents are more willing to protect your brother, who molested you, than your safety. To have to go through that with the Gothard counseling, including the packet someone linked earlier. To then have to take care of your molester, wash his clothes, cook his food, clean his room, squish into a family van with him, watch his children, and smile the entire time. As a viewer of the show, not really a "fan" in the sense of "Oh I love these people" I'm a fan more like "Oh I love to watch these people and laugh at them", I want it to continue. I want a show like a better version of Breaking Amish where the girls leave and decide the best way to get revenge on Josh is to go to school and do more with their lives, to get the same jobs he did but without the family name helping them, to cure balding and refuse to sell him the medicine, just be generally successful and independent, and to take care of the other kids left at the Duggar house, away from J&M. However I don't think it's best that it continues, because that show will never happen, and even if it did it's probably not what's best for the girls. The ideal ending to this story is that Jim Boob and MEchelle realize what they did was wrong, give the victims the option to leave & pay for housing away from the family, to give them real therapy, and to let the kids figure out on their own what they want to do. 

As for TLC, I doubt they will cancel it, it is one of their most successful shows. Though I kind of wonder, how many of the viewers each week are like us, wanting to watch so we can make fun of the family, and how many are true fans. I think if they came back with the season they'd already filmed and the number of true fans, and therefore viewers, is smaller than what they'd like, they'll say something like "This is a hard decision, but we're pulling the show due to Josh's actions, it just didn't feel right when we aired those first few episodes" and try to make it seem like they're a good person. I think advertisers may follow the same kind of path, stay with the show, since they do have high ratings, and pull out if they get smaller. Or TLC could easily fill up ad space if they lowered the price so more 'desperate' companies could see it as a golden opportunity.

 

*- please don't judge the structure and all based on the fact that I was homeschooled. I'm just as smart as the next person, I promise, I'm just also too lazy to use proper sentence structure and grammar in posts on the internet.

[kathe5133]

I FULLY agree, however they are not prepared as they were not allowed to have any education. So what do they have to fall back on? Jill was kind of thinking of becoming a nurse but never did. Jana is like an assistant doula or something. Jessa...has no known skills besides being hot (at least that they've mentioned, although they did show her legitimately teaching first grade for J'ichelle and Jim Bob). Jinger, at least, has her photography.

Well, there is WalMart, McDonalds, KFC. All fine establishments that hire those who lack formal education.

[marylennox]

I wounder if JB and Michelle would pretend like their eldest child didn't exist and continue the show without Josh?

Of course they would, for the money!

 

Does anyone remember that rumor that they had a child they no longer spoke to and pretended didn't exist?

[Muffyn]

I have only respect for your point of view, and you presented it absolutely beautifully. Thank you. I can see what you're saying, and I admire your heart and the personal commitment you have shown to living a better life. 

 

The issue that I have is that the Duggars have spent the last decade hurling stones at everyone who doesn't think exactly like they do. They have lauded Josh as their eldest and the heir to the Quiverfull throne knowing full well what he'd done, and the subsequent cover-ups. Lots of people struggle with mental illnesses that make them behave in abhorrent ways. I think a lot of us are seeing red because we don't feel that Josh understands the seriousness of what he did to his sisters. JimBob and Michelle absolutely don't see it. I feel sick for those girls, absolutely sick. At 14-15-16-17, you know you're not supposed to be fondling your sisters. Also, I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not (you might not be if you haven't been reading EVERYTHING as exhaustively as I have, haha!) but the 'counseling" Josh received was helping a family friend remodel a house, talking to a police officer who made no report and was later convicted of child pornography and is serving a 56-year sentence currently, and of course church elder Bill Gothard who has been in the news recently for acting inappropriately with underage girls. So many of us (me included) feel that these acts were never properly addressed, creating two very serious problems from which a mind-blowing array of other issues stem. Often, people who manifest sexual deviance in early adolescence have serious mental issues that will only worsen with time; not only has this not been addressed, but Josh has actually been given power and authority and a very public platform from which to condemn everyone who isn't in his cult--my worry is that his sickness has been exacerbated to the point of no return. Two, stating that the sisters have "forgiven" Josh is a little hard to believe, considering they've been told since birth that they exist for the purposes of obeying men and making babies. I'm not sure how I'd actually feel if my brother fondled me and then I had to spend the next ten years telling everyone in America what a great guy he is, or else my entire life as I'd known it since birth would END and my family would ostracize me. I worry about the girls. So much.

The great difficulty for me was that Josh continued to be given authority over the girls after this all occurred.  He is considered more responsible and reliable than they because he is male.  Even though he molested his sisters he was allowed to be around them and they had to treat him like their superior.  This is a continuation of the emotional abuse that is part of the molestation; it does not allow space for the girls to heal.

 

When I was eleven, I stayed the night at a so-called "friend's" house. I woke up in the middle of the night to both her and her 15-year-old sister molesting me. While I can look back on it now and say those girls were likely abused, because how else would an eleven-year-old know to do that, it doesn't stop me from hating the both of them, and their parents who tried to sweep it under the rug. I was just as violated then as I was when I was molested in my sleep by my brother's best friend right before my 13th birthday (he was 16), when I was raped by a fifteen-year-old at a high school party, and when I was repeatedly bullied and sexually assaulted by one of my peers between the 9th and 11th grade. All of them fucking sucked. All of them gave me nightmares, and PTSD that I have to deal with to this very day, as a 28-year-old. I used to think I had some kind of signal I emitted that said "easy to abuse". All of these people were under 18, none faced any consequences for what they did to me. The cops deemed the first incident "sexual exploration" even though it was done to me in my fucking sleep and refused to do anything about it. And that's when I learned that the cops don't care and won't do anything to help, so I didn't even report after that, because why bother?

There are a few really horrible things to understand about sexual abuse.  It is common that allegations of abuse are not handled properly.  When that is the case and the victims do not get proper support, persons subject to abuse are more likely to be re-abused, either by the same person or by others,  Persons who were molested as children are also more likely to be raped.  In no way should this be viewed as the fault of the victims.  The best research I have seen on this is a thought that predators zone in on people who are more protective of themselves; i.e., less quick to smile, pull back from physical contact, etc.  The other horrible thing is that girls who are abused, if the abuse is known, are often called sluts or otherwise accused of having "asked for it".  While we absolutely know this is wrong, once so labelled, girls are more likely to be treated poorly, be subjected to abuse and harassment and to be considered less valuable as people.  

 

Your story is horrifying but unfortunately not unheard of.  I hope you can find a better balance in your world.  As people are more willing to talk about these things, more support is available even if the courts and services have not caught up.  We can confidently say it was not your fault, there are some really sick people out there, and you deserved none of this. 

 

That is all well and good but we have to remember that "forgiveness does not EQUAL justice" and well, the victims deserve something..anything other than a blanket statement made on the internet by their BROTHER and their PARENTS.

 

I just cannot wrap my head around how it cannot be understood HOW this will affect these women for the rest of their lives. You do NOT forget molestation or sexual abuse. It has not one damn thing to do with religion, or the bible...it's about our moral compass and being human beings. 

 

Gawd.

 

I think back to that little house they lived in prior to TLC building their shiny new house....how could JB and Michelle not have known? you'd think they be up all hours of the night since there was always a newborn in the house. As parents it is their job to protect their children.As outraged as I am about Josh...I am even more outraged at the parents for not doing whatever it took to protect those girls.

A friend grew up in a small, two-bedroom house.  When she confronted her mother about her father sexually abusing her over the course of several years, her mother claimed to not have any clue this was going on.  My friend screamed at her, "That must be because we were in the north wing of the house, not sharing a bedroom wall.  Where did you think he was going at night?"  People do not see what they don't want to see or they block it for other reasons; e.g., financial security.  I am sure Boob and Mechelle turned a blind eye.  They could not imagine their precious first born could be a pervert so they chose not to see the proof.  

 

ET add a missing word.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Muffyn

[kathe5133]

"Anyone would molest children if they had the opportunity and no consequences."

Really? No. Just ... no. I can't with these people. Those poor girls.http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/05/26/duggar-relative-anyone-would-molest-kids-given-opportunity-and-no-consequences/

Just keep talking dickhead! Just keep talking.........

[marylennox]

Well, there is WalMart, McDonalds, KFC. All fine establishments that hire those who lack formal education.

 

[snip]

 

But do you really see the Duggar girls working at those places after all of this?

Edited May 27, 2015 by AmandaPanda
removed inflammatory language against other religions

[doodlebug]

No, he didn't.  The victims did go to Michelle and Jim-Bob;  Josh didn't confess or own up to what he did until he was caught

And, after getting caught and owning up to molesting his sisters the first time and supposedly getting forgiven by God and his victims; Josh continued on for at least another year, molesting even younger children in even more blatant ways. 

 

I realize it is virtually impossible to prove a negative, but forgive me for not feeling comfortable with the word of an admitted molester and his parents.  If Josh didn't stop the first time he was caught, I am skeptical that the 'punishment' he was given the second time was effective, either.  Alas, the atmosphere in which Josh was raised as well as that of his victims, makes it very unlikely they would step forward voluntarily.  After all, even when they were questioned outright, the victims claimed that it had only happened to each of them once (or not at all) and that every single incident dated back beyond the statute of limitations.  Maybe that's true, but the rest of the story makes me suspect there was still a lot of covering up to protect Josh going on even years after the fact.

[3 is enough]

 

to cure balding and refuse to sell him the medicine,

Thanks for a much needed laugh!

[mbutterfly]

What should be done about Josh now -- in relation to his victims and the rest of his family -- is way more complicated than I want to wrap my head around. That said, I strongly want the show permanently cancelled. The very nature of the show with is focus upon one sect's practices of personal holiness, with the emphasis upon the lifestyle within the TTH, with the pregnancies and pee sticks, the whole schmear is repulsive. No sponsor should be associated with it.