Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Grits]

I will not watch TLC until they cancel 19 Kids and Counting. This is the only way that I can support the children who are victims of a horrible crime.

[Chicklet]

I think we need to remember that the Duggars themselves caused this. Viewers did not. Without the actions and in-actions none of this would be even discussed.

[JenCarroll]

I may be in a minority here and will probably get thumped pretty good by the board members.  But that's okay.  I can take it.

 

I am a Christian.  I was a carnal Christian for many years before I developed a relationship with God through Christ.  A carnal Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ and what He did for the world, yet continues to live life by doing whatever one wants to do without the feeling of guilt or consequences.  That was me.   I believed, yet I had not submitted my life to God through Christ.  I didn't care who I hurt as long as it felt good to me.  I was selfish.  I just didn't care.

 

Having said this, I understand where Josh is coming from.  He did a terrible thing.  He was young, he was self-absorbed, he was only thinking of himself and what satisfied him.  He didn't think or care about the scarring of the victims.  Josh repented.  He apologized to God, his parents and the victims.  All forgave him and sought help for him and the victims (at least that's what I understand).  And like Ben's father said, when we refuse to forgive we are putting ourselves in God's seat.  How can we (Christians) NOT forgive when Christ forgave us?

 

Does this mean I feel we should just forget about it and pretend nothing happened?  No.  What I am saying is the person who has no sin at all should be the one to cast the first stone.  That person is Jesus Christ.  Our acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior means He has forgiven ALL our sins, past, present, and future.  We will find no stone in his hand, nor should there be one in ours.

I don't think people choosing to forgive or not forgive Josh is actually relevant. If it's important for you, in the context of your faith, to do so, then do so. It may be that the CEO of Payless also has forgiveness in his or her heart for Josh, but s/he still needs to withdraw the company's financial support for this show. Jim Bob and Michelle have been shown to be -- at the very, very least -- frauds, liars and irresponsible parents. Whether Josh has been forgiven or not, responsible people need to stop enabling his parents' hypocrisy.

I want to believe that everyone posting here understands that we all come from different backgrounds, and that some of us are not Christians of any kind.

[marylennox]

As a survivor of molestation (similar to this situation where the perpetrator was also a minor), I can tell you that in my experience it would be so validating for my perpetrator to be held accountable for his crimes. The few people I've told have been mostly supportive but to know that you're not crazy and what happened wasn't okay would be amazing. If that's what the victims want I see no issue with it.

 

I agree with this, but we have no idea what the victims want at this point. I heard that one of them wanted the narrative destroyed.

I don't think people choosing to forgive or not forgive Josh is actually relevant. If it's important for you, in the context of your faith, to do so, then do so. It may be that the CEO of Payless also has forgiveness in his or her heart for Josh, but s/he still needs to withdraw the company's financial support for this show. Jim Bob and Michelle have been shown to be -- at the very, very least -- frauds, liars and irresponsible parents. Whether Josh has been forgiven or not, responsible people need to stop enabling his parents' hypocrisy.

I want to believe that everyone posting here understands that we all come from different backgrounds, and that some of us are not Christians of any kind.

 

Didn't people already think they were irresponsible for being dumb enough to have 19 kids? First red flag! ha

[Gianthambeast]

 What I do know is that some very liberal people I know (and I consider myself very liberal and don't identify as Christian, btw) are "gleeful" as they put it about this whole situation. I am concerned about the victims and them suddenly being out of a future and an income and being humiliated....the people I know don't really care because they are "bigots."

 

 

No, I get what you're saying.  Anyone using this to score political points is misguided and needs to remind themselves about the women who have been victimized.  I think most  people talk about the anti-LBGT comments made by Duggars because of the galling hypocrisy of it all.  How can you call out someone else as a potential molester when you yourself know that you molested your own sisters?

 

Edited May 27, 2015 by Gianthambeast

[bencr]

Can you explain what it goes further into? It seems like most of the people on my Facebook feed are really happy this whole event happened because now their "homophobic asses are off the television."

 

Even if there weren't a ton of other reasons for wanting this show off the air, getting their "homophobic asses off the television" is enough for me. I don't understand why TLC would provide a forum to such a bigoted brood in the first place. I guess the LGBT community is the last group of people you can disparage as sinful and still have a national TV show.

 

If this family were smart, they never would have expressed their views about abortion and homosexuality in public. They could have stayed quiet and we probably would have figured out where they stand anyway. But they chose to do so, and they've made enemies. And now they've given those enemies ammunition to use against them on the very issue where they have been so judgmental of others -- sexual mores.

 

So I think there are plenty of reasons to get this family off the airwaves, but even if there weren't, their homophobia is enough for me.

Edited May 27, 2015 by bencr

[Morgalisa]

 

If "Alice" can be found and verified, she'll be a millionaire.

I wonder if Alice sent Oprah the e-mail or letter about Josh.  As another poster said, the Oprah show had to receive a massive amount of mail.  I wonder how they ever discovered this one lone piece of mail.

[cereality]

Looks like Josh is back in DC -- there was a shot of him on Extra on NBC carrying Michael through National Airport. Didn't say anything besides "no comment" (I don't think -- I didn't hear anything), though he was smirking/didn't look particularly upset or nervous or anything.

[Chicklet]

The Duggars wanted  to use this show as their ministry so they had to get their message out, to bring their warped version of Christianity to the masses and hope to bring more deluded souls into the fold. They couldn't resist so their eagerness and 100% confidence that they knew best assured them they were in the right. So pride goeth before a fall or somesuch. Hubris maybe? Stupidity? All of it played a part in this tragedy.

 

I swear I did not go to the SODRT, even graduated from a really big university. Full of smart people. New is not knew. Ugh.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Chicklet

[Churchhoney]

I am concerned about the victims and them suddenly being out of a future and an income

I do get the rest of what you're saying, but I think this argument really needs closer examination. Nobody should really be counting on reality tv to be their futures and their incomes. And the longer a bunch of children, teens and 20-somethings imagine that this is their future -- with the freebie Macbooks and so on -- the harder it's going to be for them to adjust to the real world that they all WILL have to deal with eventually, seems to me.

 

Plus, I just don't see how being on tv and having to "act" your real life -- with retakes and pressure to smile and be amusing in talking-head segments and so on -- has ever been good for abuse victims, recovering abusers or children of any sort. Many people have long wondered why Jana seems spiritless, why Joy, Jinger and Hannie have seemed increasingly bummed (and, yes, I do read too much about this show -- I know all this and have virtually never actually watched it -- sheesh) -- and I'd argue that maybe it's this. EVen in the best of circumstances, the "life" you live as a reality tv person is going to be phony. And in this case, there's clearly a lot of pressure -- well meaning or otherwise -- from their parents to live up to that family brand. That just can't be good for those kids. Especially for the older girls and Josh, who are most affected by this situation and who probably would benefit from living a more authentic and honest life rather than having to put on a show for years and years, whether they all realize that or not.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Cherrio]

OK. That? I can tell you is a huge deal. Because Behr is Home Depot is Ken Langone, who recently let it be known that if the new pope didn't stop being less right wing than the previous pope (and keep in mind, up to this point he said we had to do everything the pope said because he was the pope), american billionaires were going to stop donating. 

 

If Ken Langone bailed on patriarchal PR, things have gotten real. Except for things, read more digestive things.

I am a Depot girl and a huge Behr fan. I spend a lot of money there and also bought a lot of paint. Best paint ever so I am happy about this.

                     Since I have decided to not watch TLC at all anymore, I will boycott all sponsors.

[xls]

I wounder if JB and Michelle would pretend like their eldest child didn't exist and continue the show without Josh?

Of course they would, for the money!

[marylennox]

I do get the rest of what you're saying, but I think this argument really needs closer examination. Nobody should really be counting on reality tv to be their futures and their incomes. And the longer a bunch of children, teens and 20-somethings imagine that this is their future -- with the freebie Macbooks and so on -- the harder it's going to be for them to adjust to the real world that they all WILL have to deal with eventually, seems to me.

 

Plus, I just don't see how being on tv and having to "act" your real life -- with retakes and pressure to smile and be amusing in talking-head segments and so on -- has ever been good for abuse victims, recovering abusers or children of any sort. Many people have long wondered why Jana seems spiritless, why Joy, Jinger and Hannie have seemed increasingly bummed (and, yes, I do read too much about this show -- I know all this and have virtually never actually watched it -- sheesh) -- and I'd argue that maybe it's this. EVen in the best of circumstances, the "life" you live as a reality tv person is going to be phony. And in this case, there's clearly a lot of pressure -- well meaning or otherwise -- from their parents to live up to that family brand. That just can't be good for those kids. Especially for the older girls and Josh, who are most affected by this situation and who probably would benefit from living a more authentic and honest life rather than having to put on a show for years and years, whether they all realize that or not.

 

I FULLY agree, however they are not prepared as they were not allowed to have any education. So what do they have to fall back on? Jill was kind of thinking of becoming a nurse but never did. Jana is like an assistant doula or something. Jessa...has no known skills besides being hot (at least that they've mentioned, although they did show her legitimately teaching first grade for J'ichelle and Jim Bob). Jinger, at least, has her photography.

[murf1013]

"Anyone would molest children if they had the opportunity and no consequences."

Really? No. Just ... no. I can't with these people. Those poor girls.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/05/26/duggar-relative-anyone-would-molest-kids-given-opportunity-and-no-consequences/

Edited May 27, 2015 by murf1013

[lonerafter]

This is honestly so much, I hope the victims are dealing with it well, I can't imagine how awful it must be to have that dredged up again. I started watching this show whenever it became an actual show (I may have seen the specials if they were on Netflix, I can't really remember now, the past few seasons are kind of blurred together in my mind) and this is just crazy. I can't believe that a couple of weeks ago I was thinking that Josh and Anna seemed like nice people who may have a chance breaking away from the Duggar cult. 

I've seen some people say maybe he was brainwashed/taught that that kind of behavior was okay, and while we won't really know it, I kind of doubt it. I remember when the FLDS church was in the spotlight a few years ago it prompted me to read some of the books put out by women who had escaped that culture. Most of them said that, while they were treated awfully before marriage and seen as second-class citizens who should keep their mouths shut, and other typical gender stereotypes were enforced, that something like sexual assault wasn't cool (assuming they weren't married, the books made it clear that once you were married your body wasn't your own). I am not QF, but I do have fundie family and was homeschooled* (though not for religious reasons), and therefore a part of many homeschool groups with fundies, and I think the same tends to be true. Assaults obviously happen, but they aren't really encouraged out of marriage. They see it as normal to do that to your wife, because that's what she "owes" you, but if you do that to someone else you've "ruined" someone's future wife, and then they sweep it under the rug, it isn't normalized. I just want to say I'm not defending this way of thinking, I'm just saying that because of this way of thinking I don't think that they say this behavior as normal.

Also, I feel that his actions were very deliberate, not just 'curiosity', these were girls 6 years his junior or more, if he were 'just curious' he probably could have found someone his own age equally as curious at church or one of their functions, and done the typical teenage "I show you mine you show me yours"

I can't imagine how terrible it must feel to know that your parents are more willing to protect your brother, who molested you, than your safety. To have to go through that with the Gothard counseling, including the packet someone linked earlier. To then have to take care of your molester, wash his clothes, cook his food, clean his room, squish into a family van with him, watch his children, and smile the entire time. As a viewer of the show, not really a "fan" in the sense of "Oh I love these people" I'm a fan more like "Oh I love to watch these people and laugh at them", I want it to continue. I want a show like a better version of Breaking Amish where the girls leave and decide the best way to get revenge on Josh is to go to school and do more with their lives, to get the same jobs he did but without the family name helping them, to cure balding and refuse to sell him the medicine, just be generally successful and independent, and to take care of the other kids left at the Duggar house, away from J&M. However I don't think it's best that it continues, because that show will never happen, and even if it did it's probably not what's best for the girls. The ideal ending to this story is that Jim Boob and MEchelle realize what they did was wrong, give the victims the option to leave & pay for housing away from the family, to give them real therapy, and to let the kids figure out on their own what they want to do. 

As for TLC, I doubt they will cancel it, it is one of their most successful shows. Though I kind of wonder, how many of the viewers each week are like us, wanting to watch so we can make fun of the family, and how many are true fans. I think if they came back with the season they'd already filmed and the number of true fans, and therefore viewers, is smaller than what they'd like, they'll say something like "This is a hard decision, but we're pulling the show due to Josh's actions, it just didn't feel right when we aired those first few episodes" and try to make it seem like they're a good person. I think advertisers may follow the same kind of path, stay with the show, since they do have high ratings, and pull out if they get smaller. Or TLC could easily fill up ad space if they lowered the price so more 'desperate' companies could see it as a golden opportunity.

 

*- please don't judge the structure and all based on the fact that I was homeschooled. I'm just as smart as the next person, I promise, I'm just also too lazy to use proper sentence structure and grammar in posts on the internet.

[kathe5133]

I FULLY agree, however they are not prepared as they were not allowed to have any education. So what do they have to fall back on? Jill was kind of thinking of becoming a nurse but never did. Jana is like an assistant doula or something. Jessa...has no known skills besides being hot (at least that they've mentioned, although they did show her legitimately teaching first grade for J'ichelle and Jim Bob). Jinger, at least, has her photography.

Well, there is WalMart, McDonalds, KFC. All fine establishments that hire those who lack formal education.

[marylennox]

I wounder if JB and Michelle would pretend like their eldest child didn't exist and continue the show without Josh?

Of course they would, for the money!

 

Does anyone remember that rumor that they had a child they no longer spoke to and pretended didn't exist?

[Muffyn]

I have only respect for your point of view, and you presented it absolutely beautifully. Thank you. I can see what you're saying, and I admire your heart and the personal commitment you have shown to living a better life. 

 

The issue that I have is that the Duggars have spent the last decade hurling stones at everyone who doesn't think exactly like they do. They have lauded Josh as their eldest and the heir to the Quiverfull throne knowing full well what he'd done, and the subsequent cover-ups. Lots of people struggle with mental illnesses that make them behave in abhorrent ways. I think a lot of us are seeing red because we don't feel that Josh understands the seriousness of what he did to his sisters. JimBob and Michelle absolutely don't see it. I feel sick for those girls, absolutely sick. At 14-15-16-17, you know you're not supposed to be fondling your sisters. Also, I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not (you might not be if you haven't been reading EVERYTHING as exhaustively as I have, haha!) but the 'counseling" Josh received was helping a family friend remodel a house, talking to a police officer who made no report and was later convicted of child pornography and is serving a 56-year sentence currently, and of course church elder Bill Gothard who has been in the news recently for acting inappropriately with underage girls. So many of us (me included) feel that these acts were never properly addressed, creating two very serious problems from which a mind-blowing array of other issues stem. Often, people who manifest sexual deviance in early adolescence have serious mental issues that will only worsen with time; not only has this not been addressed, but Josh has actually been given power and authority and a very public platform from which to condemn everyone who isn't in his cult--my worry is that his sickness has been exacerbated to the point of no return. Two, stating that the sisters have "forgiven" Josh is a little hard to believe, considering they've been told since birth that they exist for the purposes of obeying men and making babies. I'm not sure how I'd actually feel if my brother fondled me and then I had to spend the next ten years telling everyone in America what a great guy he is, or else my entire life as I'd known it since birth would END and my family would ostracize me. I worry about the girls. So much.

The great difficulty for me was that Josh continued to be given authority over the girls after this all occurred.  He is considered more responsible and reliable than they because he is male.  Even though he molested his sisters he was allowed to be around them and they had to treat him like their superior.  This is a continuation of the emotional abuse that is part of the molestation; it does not allow space for the girls to heal.

 

When I was eleven, I stayed the night at a so-called "friend's" house. I woke up in the middle of the night to both her and her 15-year-old sister molesting me. While I can look back on it now and say those girls were likely abused, because how else would an eleven-year-old know to do that, it doesn't stop me from hating the both of them, and their parents who tried to sweep it under the rug. I was just as violated then as I was when I was molested in my sleep by my brother's best friend right before my 13th birthday (he was 16), when I was raped by a fifteen-year-old at a high school party, and when I was repeatedly bullied and sexually assaulted by one of my peers between the 9th and 11th grade. All of them fucking sucked. All of them gave me nightmares, and PTSD that I have to deal with to this very day, as a 28-year-old. I used to think I had some kind of signal I emitted that said "easy to abuse". All of these people were under 18, none faced any consequences for what they did to me. The cops deemed the first incident "sexual exploration" even though it was done to me in my fucking sleep and refused to do anything about it. And that's when I learned that the cops don't care and won't do anything to help, so I didn't even report after that, because why bother?

There are a few really horrible things to understand about sexual abuse.  It is common that allegations of abuse are not handled properly.  When that is the case and the victims do not get proper support, persons subject to abuse are more likely to be re-abused, either by the same person or by others,  Persons who were molested as children are also more likely to be raped.  In no way should this be viewed as the fault of the victims.  The best research I have seen on this is a thought that predators zone in on people who are more protective of themselves; i.e., less quick to smile, pull back from physical contact, etc.  The other horrible thing is that girls who are abused, if the abuse is known, are often called sluts or otherwise accused of having "asked for it".  While we absolutely know this is wrong, once so labelled, girls are more likely to be treated poorly, be subjected to abuse and harassment and to be considered less valuable as people.  

 

Your story is horrifying but unfortunately not unheard of.  I hope you can find a better balance in your world.  As people are more willing to talk about these things, more support is available even if the courts and services have not caught up.  We can confidently say it was not your fault, there are some really sick people out there, and you deserved none of this. 

 

That is all well and good but we have to remember that "forgiveness does not EQUAL justice" and well, the victims deserve something..anything other than a blanket statement made on the internet by their BROTHER and their PARENTS.

 

I just cannot wrap my head around how it cannot be understood HOW this will affect these women for the rest of their lives. You do NOT forget molestation or sexual abuse. It has not one damn thing to do with religion, or the bible...it's about our moral compass and being human beings. 

 

Gawd.

 

I think back to that little house they lived in prior to TLC building their shiny new house....how could JB and Michelle not have known? you'd think they be up all hours of the night since there was always a newborn in the house. As parents it is their job to protect their children.As outraged as I am about Josh...I am even more outraged at the parents for not doing whatever it took to protect those girls.

A friend grew up in a small, two-bedroom house.  When she confronted her mother about her father sexually abusing her over the course of several years, her mother claimed to not have any clue this was going on.  My friend screamed at her, "That must be because we were in the north wing of the house, not sharing a bedroom wall.  Where did you think he was going at night?"  People do not see what they don't want to see or they block it for other reasons; e.g., financial security.  I am sure Boob and Mechelle turned a blind eye.  They could not imagine their precious first born could be a pervert so they chose not to see the proof.  

 

ET add a missing word.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Muffyn

[kathe5133]

"Anyone would molest children if they had the opportunity and no consequences."

Really? No. Just ... no. I can't with these people. Those poor girls.http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/05/26/duggar-relative-anyone-would-molest-kids-given-opportunity-and-no-consequences/

Just keep talking dickhead! Just keep talking.........

[marylennox]

Well, there is WalMart, McDonalds, KFC. All fine establishments that hire those who lack formal education.

 

[snip]

 

But do you really see the Duggar girls working at those places after all of this?

Edited May 27, 2015 by AmandaPanda
removed inflammatory language against other religions

[doodlebug]

No, he didn't.  The victims did go to Michelle and Jim-Bob;  Josh didn't confess or own up to what he did until he was caught

And, after getting caught and owning up to molesting his sisters the first time and supposedly getting forgiven by God and his victims; Josh continued on for at least another year, molesting even younger children in even more blatant ways. 

 

I realize it is virtually impossible to prove a negative, but forgive me for not feeling comfortable with the word of an admitted molester and his parents.  If Josh didn't stop the first time he was caught, I am skeptical that the 'punishment' he was given the second time was effective, either.  Alas, the atmosphere in which Josh was raised as well as that of his victims, makes it very unlikely they would step forward voluntarily.  After all, even when they were questioned outright, the victims claimed that it had only happened to each of them once (or not at all) and that every single incident dated back beyond the statute of limitations.  Maybe that's true, but the rest of the story makes me suspect there was still a lot of covering up to protect Josh going on even years after the fact.

[3 is enough]

 

to cure balding and refuse to sell him the medicine,

Thanks for a much needed laugh!

[mbutterfly]

What should be done about Josh now -- in relation to his victims and the rest of his family -- is way more complicated than I want to wrap my head around. That said, I strongly want the show permanently cancelled. The very nature of the show with is focus upon one sect's practices of personal holiness, with the emphasis upon the lifestyle within the TTH, with the pregnancies and pee sticks, the whole schmear is repulsive. No sponsor should be associated with it. 

[kathe5133]

But do you really see the Duggar girls working at those places after all of this?

Well, they have to do something. Dem tater tots don't buy themselves!

Edited May 27, 2015 by AmandaPanda
removed language from quoted post

[autumnh]

Even if there weren't a ton of other reasons for wanting this show off the air, getting their "homophobic asses off the television" is enough for me. I don't understand why TLC would provide a forum to such a bigoted brood in the first place. I guess the LGBT community is the last group of people you can disparage as sinful and still have a national TV show.

 

If this family were smart, they never would have expressed their views about abortion and homosexuality in public. They could have stayed quiet and we probably would have figured out where they stand anyway. But they chose to do so, and they've made enemies. And now they've given those enemies ammunition to use against them on the very issue where they have been so judgmental of others -- sexual mores.

 

So I think there are plenty of reasons to get this family off the airwaves, but even if there weren't, their homophobia is enough for me.

 

^^ this.

[Churchhoney]

I FULLY agree, however they are not prepared as they were not allowed to have any education. So what do they have to fall back on? Jill was kind of thinking of becoming a nurse but never did. Jana is like an assistant doula or something. Jessa...has no known skills besides being hot (at least that they've mentioned, although they did show her legitimately teaching first grade for J'ichelle and Jim Bob). Jinger, at least, has her photography.

Yes, you're right about that. But honestly I blame the show for some of that -- everybody got lulled into thinking that they didn't really need to prepare for the future; everybody was too busy filming to prepare for the many coming decades in which they wouldn't have TLC and People money funding them (and those decades were not going to be TOO far away, even if this mess had never happened or never come to light -- no show lasts forever). Plus, if the show stays on -- Do we really think that NOW they'll decide -- Uh-oh! We have to devote our family to getting educations, training and work experience so everybody can cope in the future? Not a chance, in my opinion -- IF the show stays on the air. .....

 

Given the way things have gone so far, I firmly believe that the only thing that'll shake them up and give them the needed push toward realistic planning for future decades is for the show to end, so that everybody sees the need for it. At this point, Boob surely has enough money to tide everybody over as they readjust. .... Later, after he's given (or lent, but for how long, Ben and Jessa?) six married kids houses, who knows? And one snippet of the show that I DID watch recently showed Josiah and one of the Howlers (don't remember which) only half joking that their dad could give them all houses, since "he's in real estate." And I think we all know that a $3.5 million net worth isn't going to provide 19 houses plus everything else they need -- such as retirement funding for JimBob and Michelle, etc. But if I were a teenager in their situation, I might just begin to expect that, too.

 

Yes, in some ways it will be painful when it ends. But going on and on with your delusions is never a good idea either.

 

More important than the money, though, to me, is the falsity you end up having to embrace as a tv family. And I especially think that's dangerous for people in Josh's situation and in the older girls' situation.

[hathorlive]

 

I do get the rest of what you're saying, but I think this argument really needs closer examination. Nobody should really be counting on reality tv to be their futures and their incomes. And the longer a bunch of children, teens and 20-somethings imagine that this is their future -- with the freebie Macbooks and so on -- the harder it's going to be for them to adjust to the real world that they all WILL have to deal with eventually, seems to me.

 

Maybe this is the best time for this to happen for the older girls.  They've not gone too far into breeding that they can't stop.  They might see first hand what happens to a young couple with no education and a baby.  Just how hard it is to come up with money to pay the basics of life.  And maybe, just maybe (I know I'm completely unrealistic) they might think about how hard it was growing up and how they rarely had real food with fruits and veggies.  Maybe they see how nice it is to buy a shirt in a store just because they want it, or to take a trip to see a relative and not have to starve.

 

Josh is already sinking fast.  He's 27, with no education and four kids.  Maybe he'll wise up once he sees the writing on the wall. 

 

I would again say that they don't educate their kids for this reason.  You can't run when you have no options.  You can't head out on your own with no education.  They really are trapped in the lifestyle. 

 

Thank you for the reminder, Moderators.  Having been on other sites in the past, I realize that this thread would have been shut down for days already.  We do appreciate you and I will try to be kinder.

[Gianthambeast]

But do you really see the Duggar girls working at those places after all of this?

I'm actually hoping they'll get the money they earned from the show and their book to make a new start with.  The older girls and the little ones are really what people tuned in to see not Blob and Mullet.  I don't know if that tight-fisted bastard would give the kids their earnings without a lawsuit though.

Edited May 27, 2015 by AmandaPanda
edited quote

[autumnh]

I just don't see how continuing the show in ANY form would be acceptable , tolerable OR viable. The audience will never not know what transpired...aside from a select few , most people would be horrified to see it back on the air. It'd be like watching some sick side show

[autumnh]

With all of this being said, my heart hurts for Anna...whether she knew or not. She has babies to deal with plus she is pregnant. PLUS she has to deal with the Duggar machine. I cannot imagine her NOT being overwhelmed...

[ChocolateAddict]

The entire premise of the show was that we followed the lives of 19 kids.  Taking Josh, and by extension Anna and the Ms out of the equation, somewhat defeats the purpose of the show.  

If they do go ahead, they will need a new name.  I'm going to throw in "1 molester who we don't talk about, 4 victims and 14 others".  For short it could just be "1+4+14" but maths isn't really a strong point for Boob and J'Chelle so maybe not. Any other suggestions?  

 

In all seriousness, I don't ever want to see Boob, J'Chelle or Josh on TV ever again.  I don't want to see them explaining their logic for not dealing with a serious crime.  I don't want to see Josh talking about how he repented.  I don't even want to see the girls talking about how they forgave him.  I want Boob and J'Chelle to step away from the cameras and do some serious soul-searching and consider how they can begin to make things right.  Starting with not allowing Josh to return to the TTH, insisting he get proper treatment and ensuring that the girls get whatever treatment or counselling they need, regardless of the cost.  

In short, I want a miracle.  

[CherryAmes]

But honestly I blame the show for some of that -- everybody got lulled into thinking that they didn't really need to prepare for the future; everybody was too busy filming to prepare for the many coming decades in which they wouldn't have TLC and People money funding them (and those decades were not going to be TOO far away, even if this mess had never happened or never come to light -- no show lasts forever).

 

I don't think things would have been very different even without the show.  Girls are not educated beyond "high school" (this in quotes as IMO  what they get isn't really even that) and they certainly aren't encouraged to pursue a career of any kind.  Maybe it's ok to have  a little job until Mr Right comes along but once he arrives their job is to stay home and start having babies.  What actually surprised me about these fundamentalists wasn't the approach with girls, let's face it that's to be expected, I was surprised that the boys don't seem to be encouraged to get any real education either.  These young men are expected to support huge families on what exactly?  I don't get it.

[Wellfleet]

I was in Little Rock media at the time of the Senate run and the now famous pic of them all dressed as extras from The Handmaid's Tale.  At the time the conventional wisdom about him was that he wasn't particularly smart or savvy and was a total one-issue candidate.  While he certainly babbled a fair bit about "faith and family," everything else out of his mouth was abortion, abortion, abortion.  He was also regarded as something of an oddity in political circles because he was already even then trying to make his claim to fame on having more kids than everyone else and was always dragging Josh all around the Statehouse where kids really didn't belong.  

 

Religion will get you a long way in Arkansas but this was before the rise of the Tea Party and all the full-bore pandering to the far-right Mike Huckabee element.  Jim Bob was simply too out there for most Arkansans.

 

This description of Boob is very close to the one I've been imagining all these years. Basically a one-note bumpkin-y douche who doesn't have Clue One about how big a doofus he really is. The kind of guy you duck behind a door or dart down the stairs to avoid when you see him coming...

[HumblePi]

"Anyone would molest children if they had the opportunity and no consequences."

Really? No. Just ... no. I can't with these people. Those poor girls.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/05/26/duggar-relative-anyone-would-molest-kids-given-opportunity-and-no-consequences/

I happened to be reading all these posts,(trying anyway) and came across yours with the link and I clicked on it and I honestly thought I was reading some twisted, contrived Duggar hater making this stuff up. Then, I understood. It was quoted from the Michael Seeward blog. I absolutely cannot believe this. I will, for the benefit of those who haven't taken the time to click the link since there's so much on these boards to read, post a sampling of the article.

 

"According to Seewald, only consequences keep us from acting as Duggar did when he molested five children in their beds. Seewald said that Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar “are to be commended” for their roles in covering up their son’s crimes, reporting them only to a law enforcement officer who is currently serving more than 50 years in prison for possession of photos of naked children."

 

“As it stands criminal charges were not brought against Josh but I believe that Josh’s parents acted in a way that godly parents should,” Seewald writes. After the Duggars discovered their son’s horrific actions, he was sent for treatment at a center run by a man who ultimately resigned after it was discovered that he was “sexually grooming” teens and young women."

 

"Many times it is simply lack of opportunity or fear of consequences that keep us from falling into grievous sin even though our fallen hearts would love to indulge the flesh. We should not be shocked that this occurred in the Duggar’s home, we should rather be thankful to God if we have been spared such, and pray that he would keep us and our children from falling."

 

Honest to God, if all these are true statements made by Michael Seeward, then he belongs in a nuthouse with the rest of the clan. I'm a little wary of stories that are coming out that may be erroneous and constructed specifically to inflame the court of public opinion. I will take these quotes with a grain of salt unless I actually can find them on his blog myself.

[Churchhoney]

I don't think things would have been very different even without the show.  Girls are not educated beyond "high school" (this in quotes as IMO  what they get isn't really even that) and they certainly aren't encouraged to pursue a career of any kind.  Maybe it's ok to have  a little job until Mr Right comes along but once he arrives their job is to stay home and start having babies.  What actually surprised me about these fundamentalists wasn't the approach with girls, let's face it that's to be expected, I was surprised that the boys don't seem to be encouraged to get any real education either.  These young men are expected to support huge families on what exactly?  I don't get it.

I agree. As I said, I only blame the show for some of that! Mostly it's Gothard and the Duggar parents.

 

But I kind of think that, without the show, there's a better chance -- not necessarily a big chance but at least a small one -- that some of the kids would begin to see the light somewhat earlier. If you had 19 kids, all living without the show income and perks, without the distractions of the show, without the enhanced need to be the perfect unified family for the sake of the show and the apparent proof that you ARE a perfect family because you're on the show, I think there would be a better chance that some teenagers and young-20-somethings would notice the practical difficulties of that life and leave or take some steps to put themselves in a better position for their futures.

 

Not that it would be easy -- but people do make their own decisions and come to their own conclusions and try to get schooling and external jobs and so on, even in these ginormous cult families sometimes. But it hasn't happened here even once, despite there being --what, eight? --kids age 18 and over by now.. And my guess is that the show may be a factor in why it hasn't happened even once so far.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Churchhoney

[JoanArc]

http://washingtonpost.com.co/child-protection-service-launches-full-investigation-into-the-duggar-family/

 

CPS is involved. I am SO GLAD. It's necessary.

[irisheyes]

Since there won't be any legal repercussions for Josh, and his career in politics is done (Some things you can come back from, but alleged incest isn't one of them), he needs to take some time to seriously reassess his life and decide what HE wants to do.  He needs to go to college (online) and find a career that will support him and his growing family.  Yes, it will be tough, but life is tough for most of us.  He's had an easy life because his parents decided to have a billion kids, but reality has come calling.  (And I don't mean in the TLC way)  

 

Find a job, Josh, keep your head down, and realize that your life of fame has ended.  Shut down your FB, IG, and Twitter accounts, or set them all to private so only friends and family can see them, and stop pretending that you are the "conscience" of the nation.  You're not, you never have been, and you've been exposed as a hypocrite.  You're only 27, and you've got a family depending on you.  It's time to man up and take care of THEM, not your dreams of politics. 

 

ETA: I'm glad CPS is launching an investigation.  I hope they don't find any more abuse, but, hopefully, they'll see that's there been some serious educational neglect going on, and the little kids can actually get an education.  It would appear they are going to need it.

Edited May 27, 2015 by irisheyes

[Mindymoo]

There are a few really horrible things to understand about sexual abuse.  It is common that allegations of abuse are not handled properly.  When that is the case and the victims do not get proper support, persons subject to abuse are more likely to be re-abused, either by the same person or by others,  Persons who were molested as children are also more likely to be raped.  In no way should this be viewed as the fault of the victims.  The best research I have seen on this is a thought that predators zone in on people who are more protective of themselves; i.e., less quick to smile, pull back from physical contact, etc.  The other horrible thing is that girls who are abused, if the abuse is known, are often sluts or otherwise accused of having "asked for it".  While we absolutely know this is wrong, once so labelled, girls are more likely to be treated poorly, be subjected to abuse and harassment and to be considered less valuable as people.  

 

Your story is horrifying but unfortunately not unheard of.  I hope you can find a better balance in your world.  As people are more willing to talk about these things, more support is available even if the courts and services have not caught up.  We can confidently say it was not your fault, there are some really sick people out there, and you deserved none of this. 

It took me a very long time to realize it wasn't my fault. Like, it didn't click for me until a couple of years ago. My therapist told me that it's not uncommon to be a victim of multiple abusers too, and he said that I really was the perfect target. I am short, petite, don't weigh very much, and as much as I can hold my own in arguments, I'm really a people pleaser with a lot of anxiety and a loner on top of it. Abusers can suss that kind of information out of you. Hell, I've been on cruises with my wife and had guys that would try to get me drunk so they could take advantage of me, even though they knew I was a lesbian, married, and completely uninterested. They've done it with my wife five feet away. And that's what was so fucked up about my first occurrence of abuse- it was by two females, at a time where I was having a hard time coming to terms with my sexuality as it was. I started thinking, is this how all lesbians act? Am I going to be a predator? Should I limit my contact with my younger cousins in case some freakish urge comes over me? This abuse made it a million times harder to come out, because some of the people who knew about the abuse assumed that I'm only a lesbian because I was abused by females, or because I hate men because I was abused by them. It's a really messed up situation to be put in.

[HumblePi]

Is that really what they were doing? Or was it a weird documentary that happened every year and then got to be a TV show because the America liked to watch them? I don't really recall feeling like I was being told my life was wrong watching their show, but that is just me.

 

I don't think this is the liberal media vs. All-American Christian values in any shape or fashion. What I do know is that some very liberal people I know (and I consider myself very liberal and don't identify as Christian, btw) are "gleeful" as they put it about this whole situation. I am concerned about the victims and them suddenly being out of a future and an income and being humiliated....the people I know don't really care because they are "bigots."

I think that people need to evaluate their own personal reasons for being intrigued by the Duggar family. I know that personally, I had to record it and watch when my husband wasn't around. "why are you watching this horrible stuff, change the channel." So, I recorded it and watched it later. But why did I watch? I wondered about that really. I know that it was unusual, so many children in a world that's already overcrowded. I know that I thought Michelle must be under some kind of spell. I knew I watched because I was trying to find something genuine, it all seemed so fake. I truly felt embarrassed to admit that I watched '19 Kids and Counting" so I never told anyone, it was my own secret obsession. I know for sure that I didn't watch because I liked them, I watched for some little sign that they were actually genuine and believed that what they were doing was better than any of us could do. Yes, in a lot of ways I did feel that watching was wrong, that I was being duped by the Duggars, but still I watched out of curiosity. I know that it's not wrong to hug someone or kiss a boyfriend on the lips. I know that it's not wrong to have sexual thoughts or even want to have sex just for the fun of it, not to procreate over and over. I knew it's not mentally healthy to have an addiction to having babies then passing them off for another child to raise. I possibly looked for some sign that there was some normalcy within that family, I mean genuine normalcy.

[xls]

Does anyone remember that rumor that they had a child they no longer spoke to and pretended didn't exist?

They have several.

[salvame]

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/founder-of-josh-duggars-treatment-center-left-after-sexually-grooming-teens-and-young-women/

 

Haven't had the time to sift through all the posts and coverage of this disturbing story, so I apologize if this has been said before.  The reason the Duggars and their fellow fundies don't see the hypocrisy of their handling of this disturbing revelation is that in their eyes, Josh committed a sin, to which he confessed and asked for forgiveness.  If he "went forth and sinned no more," the issue is resolved in fundie land.  They continue to speak out against the glbt community because, again, in their eyes, these people are living in sin, but are not admitting it and asking for forgiveness, so they are out of g_d's grace and will be in hell for all eternity.  It's the same with devout families who cut off their gay child - they consider them to be living a life of sin which condemns them to hell.  Because of this, they believe they will not see their loved one in whatever they perceive as the next life.

[HumblePi]

http://washingtonpost.com.co/child-protection-service-launches-full-investigation-into-the-duggar-family/

\

Oh my God. I don't know if this is good or horrible news. All this will become a matter of public record and the names may be revealed. Now I'm feeling sick to my stomach. The show should be cancelled. That enough already

 

*.TLC has since announced the cancellation of the family’s long running reality show 19 Kids and Counting.

Edited May 27, 2015 by HumblePi

[Dawn16]

http://washingtonpost.com.co/child-protection-service-launches-full-investigation-into-the-duggar-family/

 

CPS is involved. I am SO GLAD. It's necessary.

Sadly,this is a fake news site.  If the Arkansas Division of Child and Family Services did investigate, it would likely not be in the news, unless someone leaked the info. 

[auntieminem]

CPS records are not subject to public record request.  They are totally  confidential, in most states they can only be shared if a judge orders, as related to a hearing. 

Edited May 27, 2015 by auntieminem

[AmandaPanda]

CPS investigations are a little different than police investigations. From what I understand, you can't request a CPS report the way you can a police report. Unless it goes on to court, the records will probably never be released. And if they do get released, they will hopefully be a lot more redacted than the police report was.

[autumnh]

I think that people need to evaluate their own personal reasons for being intrigued by the Duggar family. I know that personally, I had to record it and watch when my husband wasn't around. "why are you watching this horrible stuff, change the channel." So, I recorded it and watched it later. But why did I watch? I wondered about that really. I know that it was unusual, so many children in a world that's already overcrowded. I know that I thought Michelle must be under some kind of spell. I knew I watched because I was trying to find something genuine, it all seemed so fake. I truly felt embarrassed to admit that I watched '19 Kids and Counting" so I never told anyone, it was my own secret obsession. I know for sure that I didn't watch because I liked them, I watched for some little sign that they were actually genuine and believed that what they were doing was better than any of us could do. Yes, in a lot of ways I did feel that watching was wrong, that I was being duped by the Duggars, but still I watched out of curiosity. I know that it's not wrong to hug someone or kiss a boyfriend on the lips. I know that it's not wrong to have sexual thoughts or even want to have sex just for the fun of it, not to procreate over and over. I knew it's not mentally healthy to have an addiction to having babies then passing them off for another child to raise. I possibly looked for some sign that there was some normalcy within that family, I mean genuine normalcy.

 

Admittedly, I was fascinated but not shocked. My maternal grandparents back in Brooklyn had 21 children (irish catholic..no tv etc lol) So for me...I was intrigued to see how a family in this day and age would handle it.  Times are very different...times were very different back then..and it was not unheard of. My dear sweet mom is now 85 with Alzheimers.....she cannot remember what she had for lunch but her stories of growing up are amazing....

 

Maybe it was not right back then either..but I do think that back in the "old days"..it was just different.

 

Now? I have 121 FIRST cousins and have 175 cousins up to third cousins lol....

 

On my fathers side...he was one of 15...most of whom are still in Ireland....55 cousins there and 112 in total...needless to say...I am family'ed up! lol

Edited May 27, 2015 by autumnh

[JoanArc]

Sadly,this is a fake news site.  If the Arkansas Division of Child and Family Services did investigate, it would likely not be in the news, unless someone leaked the info. 

It does look like the CPS story is fake. Sorry for getting everyone's hopes up.

[CofCinci]

http://washingtonpost.com.co/child-protection-service-launches-full-investigation-into-the-duggar-family/

 

CPS is involved. I am SO GLAD. It's necessary.

Shit just got real.

[leighdear]

Awww, too bad it's bogus.  Sorry for passing on something not legit.  I deleted the link in my last post. 

Edited May 27, 2015 by leighdear

[auntieminem]

According to  the old post from Alice, they were already with CPS and having to report in every 6 months.  That might be what the sealed case is about that was Josh vs The Department of Human Services .  Real CPS cannot address cases they may or may not have.