Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[libgirl2]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I agree with that too. I think its likely Deena knew something happened, but perhaps not Amy until more information came to light (the 2015 revelation). Given what I have seen in my short life, if Deena knew about Josh molesting his sisters, she may have just not wanted Amy to be alone with him, but not have stopped hanging out with him a group setting (as he was a teenager living in the family home at the time).

By the time 2015 rolled around,

 Amy was an adult and it was up to her how much interaction she wanted with her other adult cousin Josh. I always got the impression that NONE of the older siblings (and Amy) liked Josh AT ALL, and this was before I knew anything about a rumor, and when I did hear a rumor I assumed it was a consensual "got caught with another teen girl in a closet" type of thing. 

"The things you do for the mother that bore you both."- once Mary was gone, Deena may have felt free to stop hiding her disagreements with how JB handled xyz, Josh and the molestation of his sister, "Jesus Jail" etc was probably just a part of that.

I think they were given a version but not the entire truth. Josh is slime through and through, and they probably always knew that, but not the details. 

Amy is close to Jill and probably really does love her cousins very much. I don't think any of the kids really liked  Josh. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by libgirl2

[BetyBee]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

"The things you do for the mother that bore you both."- once Mary was gone, Deena may have felt free to stop hiding her disagreements with how JB handled xyz, Josh and the molestation of his sister, "Jesus Jail" etc was probably just a part of that.

I think that Deanna does know a lot more now about what Josh did/does and so do we. I agree that Grandma Mary being gone and her estate being distributed, freed Deanna up to react this strongly. Since Grandma Mary lived with, then near JB's family, and Deanna had been assured that the situation was mild touching long ago, that she feels free to react now with her true feelings. I hope that Deanna would have helped her nieces, but with all the lies being told by JB & Meech, I think it's unlikely that Deanna would have known at the time that the molestations took place, that her help was needed. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by BetyBee

[Tuxcat]

1 hour ago, SMama said:

Deanna is very upset. And to think JB spent decades talking about his sister’s mistakes while aiding and abetting a pedophile.

I am confused though. Why is she so upset now? That's an awful lot of exclamation points to use when Holt's testimony to the truth was revealed months ago? And while I sympathize with her position - I was outraged when I saw the Megan Kelly interview and when this story first broke. Didn't we hear same story that Amy and Deanna were likely told right? And yet they continued to be closely involved with the family and the show (not to mention the quest for fame).

[CandyXmasTree]

I am surprised that this statement didn't come out in the trial that every family has a child molester in their family I forgot which family member said it. That would have been a perfect get out of jail card for FF.

[SMama]

2 minutes ago, CandyXmasTree said:

I am surprised that this statement didn't come out in the trial that every family has a child molester in their family I forgot which family member said it. That would have been a perfect get out of jail card for FF.

It was Jill who regurgitated the made up statistic that it happens in two thirds of all families. 

[emmawoodhouse]

32 minutes ago, SMama said:

It was Jill who regurgitated the made up statistic that it happens in two thirds of all families. 

Right. It was said in the Megyn Kelly interview. The statistic came straight from Gothard.

[Albanyguy]

I've just plowed through all those letters and my head is spinning. Are we talking about Josh Duggar or George Bailey from "It's A Wonderful Life"?

Just a couple of random thoughts:

Is there a Fundie on earth who knows how to use an apostrophe correctly?

I know nothing about childbirth, but would a slug of Pepto Bismol really stop contractions that are coming a minute apart? At that point, isn't the baby coming, no matter what?

We're hearing a lot about that poor widow Josh has been supporting financially since her husband died, but until I see a letter from the widow herself confirming this story, I'm filing this away with Michelle's missing back muscle and all the other self-serving Duggar lies.

Most of the letter writers seem to be tacitly acknowledging Josh's guilt but dismissing it as relatively unimportant compared to his other wonderful qualities. Timothy Burgess, however, is still pushing the theory that Josh is innocent and that the CP was really downloaded by someone else. Does he really think that the judge who sat through the entire court proceedings is going to be impressed by this?

A letter from LaCount Reber, but nothing from Mrs. Reber? I'd love to hear what she has to say about Josh.

Interesting that in all the talk about how hard-working Josh is, there's lots of stories about him running the car lot, but no mention of his glory days as a Washington DC power broker, doing the Lord's work for the FRC. I'll bet they were all told to stay far away from that topic lest the judge be reminded how and why it all ended.

[JustRosie]

Could Josh be released early for good behavior? What percentage of his sentence would he have to serve before that happens? I hope he has to serve every day of whatever his sentence is. 

[Kiss my mutt]

She needs to include herself in “these people”. So indignant when it suits them. 

[beckie]

We saw Josh on the show. I don't believe what we saw was an act as I think he's incapable of being a good actor. That being said, the smug arrogant person we saw on the show is what I believe is the real him. Not this over the top great person the letter writers are making him out to be.

[Cinnabon]

56 minutes ago, Albanyguy said:

We're hearing a lot about that poor widow Josh has been supporting financially since her husband died, but until I see a letter from the widow herself confirming this story, I'm filing this away with Michelle's missing back muscle and all the other self-serving Duggar lies

I wonder if this widow reported the alleged $2000 a month to the IRS and social services (if she applied for any kind of welfare or food stamps).

[Natalie68]

On 5/12/2022 at 1:31 PM, Trillium said:

Pam Hupp has entered the chat. 

I thought I heard a last slurp from a Big Gulp

[Cinnabon]

20 minutes ago, Kiss my mutt said:

She needs to include herself in “these people”. So indignant when it suits them. 

Exactly. Imagine if a homosexual or transgender person had committed these same crimes, would they be understanding then? Back in the day, Boob advocated for the death penalty for pedophiles.

[cmr2014]

5 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I wonder if this widow reported the alleged $2000 a month to the IRS and social services (if she applied for any kind of welfare or food stamps).

Maye that's why she didn't write a letter?

If someone had helped me out to the tune of $2000/month for multiple years, I would think that I would be able to take pen in hand to write at least a short letter on his behalf . . .

[Cinnabon]

9 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

Maye that's why she didn't write a letter?

If someone had helped me out to the tune of $2000/month for multiple years, I would think that I would be able to take pen in hand to write at least a short letter on his behalf . . .

True, unless that widow recently found out the sickening details about the CP Josh watched. 

[Natalie68]

46 minutes ago, Namaste said:

Could Josh be released early for good behavior? What percentage of his sentence would he have to serve before that happens? I hope he has to serve every day of whatever his sentence is. 

I just googles this: In the federal system, prisoners who, in the judgment of the Bureau of Prisons, have exhibited "exemplary compliance with institutional disciplinary regulations" can get up to 54 days per year off their sentences.

[SMama]

Someone on FJ posted that the FF administered a website to collect funds for Mrs. Clark. If there’s any truth to that the money was not coming from the FF. It was reported the only vehicle on the FF’s name was the old RV. If he couldn’t afford a car how would he give a $2000 monthly stipend for years? 

[emmawoodhouse]

Yeah, I totally side eye the $2000/mo to Mrs. Clark. How much money can one receive before one has to report to the IRS?

[ginger90]

55 minutes ago, Namaste said:

Could Josh be released early for good behavior? What percentage of his sentence would he have to serve before that happens? I hope he has to serve every day of whatever his sentence is. 

I believe because of the crime, he would be disqualified from good conduct credits. 🤷🏼‍♀️

[emmawoodhouse]

Just now, ginger90 said:

I believe because of the crime, he would be disqualified from good conduct credits. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Oh please be true! The scumbag deserves to serve every second of his sentence. 

[Cinnabon]

Just now, emmawoodhouse said:

Oh please be true! The scumbag deserves to serve every second of his sentence. 

Hopefully at least a couple of his oldest kids will be out of the house before he gets out of prison.

[Westiepeach]

4 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Hopefully at least a couple of his oldest kids will be out of the house before he gets out of prison.

And they will be punished for not praying hard enough to get Daddy out of Federal Prison sooner.

[emmawoodhouse]

6 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Hopefully at least a couple of his oldest kids will be out of the house before he gets out of prison.

I hope baby (Ashley) Madyson is past the age that Smuggar is attracted to when he's released. I want all the remaining children at home to be safe. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by emmawoodhouse

[GeeGolly]

7 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I hope baby (Ashley) Madyson is past the age that Smuggar is attracted to when he's released. I want all the remaining children at home to be safe. 

If it goes my way Madyson will be 19 when the FF gets out.

[emmawoodhouse]

4 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

If it goes my way Madyson will be 19 when the FF gets out.

I think we're all rooting for that outcome. 

[Heathen]

31 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Yeah, I totally side eye the $2000/mo to Mrs. Clark. How much money can one receive before one has to report to the IRS?

It's $15,000 per year, but there are many loopholes -- they could claim half came from Smuggar, half from Anna, and so on, even if it came from a joint account; and thus give way more than that amount. It's a moot point because common sense says the money didn't come from Smuggar himself. If it existed at all. 

 

[emmawoodhouse]

Emily D. Baker is rolling through the memos. She's on the defense memo now. She does not like Smuggar. Like at all. She's snarking at almost every sentence by Gelfand. Can't wait until.she gets to the letters. 😂

[libgirl2]

4 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Yeah, I totally side eye the $2000/mo to Mrs. Clark. How much money can one receive before one has to report to the IRS?

Mrs Clark also known as George Glass. 

[Cinnabon]

30 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Mrs Clark also known as George Glass. 

 

[quarks]

The widow story was mentioned just enough that I'm sure the basics of it - that Josh at one point sent this widow some sort of monthly payment - is probably true.

What I'm questioning is the reason for it. Because these folks are not good at charity - that's clear from these letters, where they all find very very basic acts of what might not even be charity completely amazing - which makes me think that something else was going on here.  Not necessarily nefarious, either - it could just be Josh quietly repaying a loan, for instance.

46 minutes ago, Albanyguy said:

Most of the letter writers seem to be tacitly acknowledging Josh's guilt but dismissing it as relatively unimportant compared to his other wonderful qualities. Timothy Burgess, however, is still pushing the theory that Josh is innocent and that the CP was really downloaded by someone else. Does he really think that the judge who sat through the entire court proceedings is going to be impressed by this?

 

I don't think Burgess is trying to impress the judge as much as he's trying to change public opinion. If it also manages to impress the judge, then great, but I don't think that's the main goal here.

Timothy Burgess knows full well that the vast majority of people were not paying much if any attention to this trial, and got their information - if any - from brief tweets, headlines, or a two minute summary on the local news, very few of which mentioned that Josh Duggar and the defense were trying to cast blame on someone else.

Thus this document, written with the full understanding that, like 90% of the other documents related to this trial, it would be released as free for the public to read on Reddit and other sources.  A document that pointedly notes that another felon was working at the car lot, adds that Josh and the Duggars have gained multiple enemies thanks to their religious beliefs, and strongly tries to insinuate that this was all a frame up by Josh's religious and personal enemies. 

Of course, to make that work, you have to explain why Josh Duggar, who was already discredited and mostly out of the public view in 2019-2021, was the chosen target of the CSAM charges, and not, say, Jim Bob, Jeremy, Derrick, and Jed! - all of whom except Derrick were still on TV in 2019; all of whom were/are pretty open about their ambitions; and all of whom are widely hated. That's not something Timothy Burgess tried to address, which is one of many reasons his letter didn't convince me. But I'm not his target audience either. He wants the tabloids to read this and start putting up headlines like "Was Josh Duggar framed?" And hope that - as with the most people during the trial - most people won't read beyond that.

[emmawoodhouse]

I don't see the tabs running with the Was Smuggar Framed? narrative. Their eggs are in the "sex pest" basket. They will happily report his sentence come the 25th, the more years, the better.

[all fall down]

5 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Emily D. Baker is rolling through the memos. She's on the defense memo now. She does not like Smuggar. Like at all. She's snarking at almost every sentence by Gelfand. Can't wait until.she gets to the letters. 😂

She couldn't even get through the first sentence! And when she got to Michelle's signature, I thought she was done for. But it was nice to hear her analysis of both memos and her opinion that these overly flowery letters could backfire on them.  

[SMama]

5 minutes ago, all fall down said:

She couldn't even get through the first sentence! And when she got to Michelle's signature, I thought she was done for. But it was nice to hear her analysis of both memos and her opinion that these overly flowery letters could backfire on them.  

Did she say why they could backfire? 

[all fall down]

24 minutes ago, SMama said:

Did she say why they could backfire? 

I think it was along the lines of "Josh is so polite, Josh is so considerate, and loving and kind, etc, etc, etc" and the judge could see through that and think "he wasn't very considerate to his family when choosing to commit these crimes", and the letters were all quite over the top when seen together. 

I had to watch the video in chunks because it kept buffering on my end. The whole video was over 3 hours long even though the Josh part was only part of that. The video was loading slower that my internet wanted to play it, so i kept having to pause and wait for it to catch up, so I might be slightly mis-remembering her exact words, but that was the gist of her opinion. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by all fall down

[Churchhoney]

18 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I was thinking about the letters, and Josh's "ministry."

Nicole Burgess wrote: "He and his family are not typical of what this world has to offer -- they are better."

Josh is literally not even "better" than the majority of people in the same prison. Most people in county jail are incarcerated for relatively minor crimes like drug and alcohol related offenses and petty theft.

Josh is a felon who committed a henious crime and is awaiting transfer to Federal prison. I would expect the prison to segregate the serious felons from the general population.

I guess the Duggars' and TLC's tireless efforts to portray the TTH fam as super-"wholesome," super-godly, super-moral and super-adorable paid off, in the minds of at least the idiot neighbors. 

[Churchhoney]

18 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

That is because she at least went to HS unlike  her kids. 

And -- mega unfortunately -- all too likely some of her GRANDKIDS, too. .... Anybody think Spurge and company will ever get into an actual school? I hope they do, but the chances are looking pretty slim. Or Josh's unfortunate seven? .Or Joy's kids, maybe..

The Duggars -- spreading crap ideas and utter ignorance farther than you even thought possible. 

[GeeGolly]

Its been pretty apparent Jessa reads here. I wonder if she freely talks about the FF's conviction with the family, or if the topic is too touchy. Jessa, Derick and Amy certainly alter what they put out on SM due to public opinion and I'm curious how much feedback Jessa gives JB & M.

I've been thinking about this because I wonder if the Duggar 18 are publicly done with Josh or if we should expect statements upon his sentencing.  

[Churchhoney]

13 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Oh please be true! The scumbag deserves to serve every second of his sentence. 

It is true. There's a pretty long list of offenses that make you ineligible for federal good time credit, and any type of sex-related offenses connected to minors makes you ineligible. 

[Churchhoney]

13 hours ago, Natalie68 said:

I just googles this: In the federal system, prisoners who, in the judgment of the Bureau of Prisons, have exhibited "exemplary compliance with institutional disciplinary regulations" can get up to 54 days per year off their sentences.

That's the general rule. But there's a big list of offenses to which that doesn't apply, though. (of course, in typical big-bureaucracy fashion, you can't so easily find that list!!)

And child-related sex offenses, including pornography, are one category of offenses that are ineligible for the good-time credits. 

 

[floridamom]

I can't believe that Michelle used the word "purposed" in her letter to a federal judge.

[SMama]

36 minutes ago, floridamom said:

I can't believe that Michelle used the word "purposed" in her letter to a federal judge.

It’s so ingrained in her. The same as tender heart, diligent, debt free, and other Gothard speak.

[sagittarius sue]

20 hours ago, hathorlive said:

These guys have laid a brilliant trap for Josh.  I thought Bobyeeeee's testimony was to influence the jury that Josh was a perv.  Now I realize that they were laying the groundwork for the enhancements. Excellent writing, excellent examples of case law.  Their argument is powerful and undercuts everything that Josh's attorneys are trying to say.   And what's beautiful is that are using the Duggar's own actions and words to get Josh a longer sentence.

I've been thinking the same.  The smug attitude that Josh has always displayed, the idea that he is above and not responsible for anything is working against him.  If he were a true Christian he would be contrite, repent of his sins before the trial and received a shorter sentence.  Instead he will probably receive an enhanced sentence.  "Hoist with his own petard!"

[SusanM]

23 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

How anyone could think that a judge would respond to this bit of smug, self-satisfied cluelessness with anything but a hammer, I don't know.

What I was wondering about was if Smuggar's lawyers see these letters before they go to the judge because if they do this seems to indicate to me that either Smuggar's lawyers hate him and want him to go to prison for life or else they were never as good as they were purported to be. 

[Minivanessa]

21 minutes ago, SusanM said:

What I was wondering about was if Smuggar's lawyers see these letters before they go to the judge because if they do this seems to indicate to me that either Smuggar's lawyers hate him and want him to go to prison for life or else they were never as good as they were purported to be. 

I believe the defense lawyers filed the letters with the court along with their sentencing memo. I'm sure that defense counsel reviewed those letters with their client in advance, and I would be surprised if they didn't offer their opinion and advice as to how effective each letter would be. However, if their client wanted a support letter filed, the lawyers are required to file them. Somewhere upthread I pointed out that's part of their duty to advocate for their client. 

The flipside is that after Josh has been cooling his heels in the federal lockup for awhile, he won't be able to say, "My lawyers were given AWESOME letters supporting leniency in sentencing, but they refused to file them with the court, and therefore I got a harsher sentence. If only the judge had seen those letters, I'm sure I'd be a free man by now!" 

ETA: I suppose people can send "character reference" letters directly to the court - and defense counsel might not have seen those -  but I know that the defense filed "numerous" support letters with their sentencing memo. The memo didn't list them but did quote from a few of them.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Jeeves

[merylinkid]

15 hours ago, SMama said:

Someone on FJ posted that the FF administered a website to collect funds for Mrs. Clark. If there’s any truth to that the money was not coming from the FF. It was reported the only vehicle on the FF’s name was the old RV. If he couldn’t afford a car how would he give a $2000 monthly stipend for years? 

this makes sense.   The church decides to collect funds for a widow, as they do.   They need someone with tech experience to run the website so Josh gets the job (even though he is apparently too dumb to understand the internet).   He sets up the direct deposit into the widow's bank account.   In Duggar World this becomes JOSH supports the poor widow out of his own money.    

This would also explain why the widow herself didn't write a letter.   JOSH didn't give her money, all the people donating through the website did.

[GeeGolly]

If you think about it, these are perfectly normal character references for their world. More typical references would be about education, work, family and benefits to the community. But IMO, even the most truthful glowing mainstream reference wouldn't make a shit of difference with charges like these.

FF's crime isn't an unintentional murder, tax fraud, bribing college officials, etc. His crime is downloading CSA. His history shows an unhealthy interest in sex. What's the saying ... you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.

[Rootbeer]

17 hours ago, Albanyguy said:

p contractions that are coming a minute apart? At that point, isn't the baby coming, no matter what?

 

I know a little bit about childbirth, having delivered maybe 6000 kids in my day.  No, treating diarrhea with an over the counter medication does not stop labor.  However, when a pregnant woman is sick, particularly when she has a GI issue, she will often have a lot of Braxton-Hicks or false labor type contractions. These can be painful, especially in the setting of a GI problem like diarrhea.  Giving her something to slow down the diarrhea would also help calm down the uterus and slow down the Braxton-Hicks contractions.  However, this would only work if she was having false labor and her cervix wasn't changing which was probably ruled out during her hospital visit where they apparently installed thick glass walls around her bed just for her because, in 40+ years, I've never seen them anywhere else,

[Miss Fabulous]

I wouldn’t be surprised if Michelle and Anna didn’t even write those letters and only signed them (I’m looking at you Pimp-Bob)

Edited May 15, 2022 by Miss Fabulous

[graefin]

2 hours ago, floridamom said:

I can't believe that Michelle used the word "purposed" in her letter to a federal judge.

I can. She's been so insulated in the cult for so long that she's long ago lost any sense of what's "normal" in the outside world, or how she might appear to others. In other words, she has a complete lack of self-awareness. Her way of being is the only way of being, and she doesn't really temper that based on her audience, save the really obvious taboos like corporal punishment (which they used to have mention of on their website before they realized--or were told by TLC or their PR people--it was too controversial so they scrubbed any mention of it).

I think there's lots of evidence she doesn't experience emotions like the rest of us do or have a sense of appropriate behavior based on the situation at hand. One example that comes to mind is when Jordyn got her head stuck between a set of railings at the big house (it was on that spiral staircase they have leading upstairs that seems to be tucked in a corner near the bedrooms).

While JB is working to try to free her, Michelle is standing there laughing like a maniac, while everyone else (including the other children) bears a serious expression, and at one point even JB says, "it's not funny" (which Michelle pays no attention to). It's like she just doesn't have an innate sense that this is a serious situation that merits a serious response, so her go-to emotion is cheerful silliness, like a 5-year-old. It's quite chilling, actually.

[Zella]

9 hours ago, all fall down said:

I think it was along the lines of "Josh is so polite, Josh is so considerate, and loving and kind, etc, etc, etc" and the judge could see through that and think "he wasn't very considerate to his family when choosing to commit these crimes", and the letters were all quite over the top when seen together.

I'm also thinking constantly talking about him being around children in light of the crimes he's been convicted of is not a good look. I'm not saying that as speculation he has abused additional people, but it's a very uncomfortable juxtaposition that I don't think will sit well with someone tasked with deciding how many years in prison Josh needs, and I think the Duggars are likely completely oblivious to it. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Zella