Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Mollie]

11 hours ago, Fallacy said:

I have a question. If someone is charged with a sex crime as a juvenile offender (under the age of 18), they don't stay on the sex offender registry after their release, right? I ask because Josh was 14-15 when he offended but he basically will forever be a public sex offender thanks to the Internet. If he wasn't a celebrity, if he was just some random 14-15 year old, his record would be expunged and he wouldn't be on the registry, right? In my mind, that fact means that Josh is currently facing tougher consequences for his sex crime today than he would if he wasn't a celebrity. 

I really am not sympathizing with him at all here. I just disagree with the claim that Josh hasn't had to deal with any consequences for his actions. I would think the entire world knowing what he did and hating him for it forever and always is a pretty big consequence. 

Josh was NOT a "juvenile offender" and that was the same lie that Jim Bob tried to make people believe in the big Megyn Kelly interview.

Under Arkansas law, a 14-year-old who commits acts of sexual molesting is treated as an adult.  http://humanservices.arkansas.gov/dcfs/dcfsDocs/Master%20DCFS%20Policy.pdf

Not only that, but Michelle and Jim Bob could have been arrested for child abuse/neglect for allowing the abuse to continue once they knew it was happening.  (According to the police reports, the abuse continued and escalated for over a year.)

I believe Jim Bob knew exactly what he was doing when he failed to act before the Statute of Limitations expired over the crimes.  When the abuse occurred, Jim Bob was an Arkansas legislater and was running for the U.S. senate.  

In short, if the law had been obeyed, Josh would be on the State Sex Offenders list and Michelle and Jim Bob would be convicted of child abuse/neglect, and all minor children could have been removed from the home and put in foster care.

Jim Bob, Michelle and Josh all deserve what they are getting now in public humiliation and financial retaliation.   The first 14 Kids and Counting show would never have happened if Josh's conduct had been reported to authorities when the abuse occurred.  

Edited May 13, 2016 by Mollie

[Fallacy]

That's why I asked, Mollie. I'm shocked that he would have been tried as an adult. I assumed that a 14-15 year old would be tried as a juvenile.  Also, where in that 444 page document does it say that? I read through the entire index and skimmed through what I believed are the relevant sections, and I found nothing related to the penalties or laws about 14-15 year olds committing sexual abuse. I'm sure it's there, but could you help me find it?

And yes, I'm fully aware he was never charged and that Jim Bob and Michelle never got him real help. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by Fallacy
Asked a question

[Mollie]

2 hours ago, Fallacy said:

That's why I asked, Mollie. I'm shocked that he would have been tried as an adult. I assumed that a 14-15 year old would be tried as a juvenile.  Also, where in that 444 page document does it say that? I read through the entire index and skimmed through what I believed are the relevant sections, and I found nothing related to the penalties or laws about 14-15 year olds committing sexual abuse. I'm sure it's there, but could you help me find it?

And yes, I'm fully aware he was never charged and that Jim Bob and Michelle never got him real help. 

"Once required to register, juvenile sex offenders are subject to the same requirements and standards as adult offenders, pursuant to Ark. Code Ann. § 12-12-913."

Also see: Arkansas Code 5-14-103. Sexual Assault Third Degree

http://acasa.us/pdfs/Sexual-assault-laws.pdf

[kokapetl]

It's "once required" though. It seems to be up to the discretion of the sentencing judge in the case of juveniles. 

[Lemur]

I was under the impression, from the research I did at the time of Joshgate 1 into the relevant laws but also the legal analysis presented by several experts, that it was at the discretion of the prosecutor whether or not the alleged perpetrator would be tried as an adult, and if not, if the juvenile perpetrator was found guilty, whether or not they would be listed on sex offender registry.  It would also depend on what he was actually charged with.  

As for Josh failing ... I don't wish anyone ill will but the fact of the matter is that it's hard to estimate how many cheaters cheat again (because let's face it, people aren't exactly going to own up to it in the first place, much less the second).  And we have seen no evidence of recidivism in regards to the molestation.  I don't wish Josh or Anna or any of them ill.  I'm just really, really, really sick of seeing them and their type (meaning F-list reality "stars") continually cash-in on their own shit behavior and misdeeds.  And yes, the audience that buys into that crap is just as culpable as the people selling it.

[sometimesy]

Well, he has probably faced all the fellowshippers after the graduation tour. Phew, that's over. He's done this before and he became so comfortable he starred in a reality show. What's next Josh? Red pill? Blue pill?

Edited May 13, 2016 by sometimesy

[emma675]

Quote

And honest question, but the word "redemption" is thrown around these parts quite a bit, but don't most here WANT the man to continue to fail, in the worst way possible?

Seems like it, to me...

I don't want him to fail, I want him to go away.

[yogi2014L]

2 hours ago, emma675 said:

I don't want him to fail, I want him to go away.

I don't! I want him to one day wake up and say EFF IT I don't need to be dragged around by mommy and daddy.  I want him to flee the cult with or without anna or divorce her ( and pay alimony) and go live the life he wants full of consenting adult sex that isn't to fill a quiver! Then publish a tell all. And then he may disappear. 

[Sew Sumi]

After the mediocre success of JJ:CO,.Boob has to know that Smuggar is his next gambling chip. And who knows, maybe he's convinced Smuggar to stay close in order to orchestrate the Official Redemption Tour, sponsored by TLC. 

But of course, it's pretty clear that Smuggar is staying in the safe bosom of his ever-forgiving family for now. He's not yet ready to step out on his own, so getting a real job isn't even on the table at this point in time.

[kokapetl]

Given that advertisers had made it very clear beforehand that they didn't want anything to do with JJ:CO, I wonder what the TLC execs consider success or failure for the show. 

[Sew Sumi]

That doesn't seem to matter to Boob  Remember how he declared that they would never be cancelled? I don't think he understands how TV works. 

The problem is, TLC might see The Redemption Tour as ratings gold, mostly due to hate-watchers and go with it with the minimal advertising they had for JJ:CO.

[GeeGolly]

7 hours ago, Lemur said:

I was under the impression, from the research I did at the time of Joshgate 1 into the relevant laws but also the legal analysis presented by several experts, that it was at the discretion of the prosecutor whether or not the alleged perpetrator would be tried as an adult, and if not, if the juvenile perpetrator was found guilty, whether or not they would be listed on sex offender registry.  It would also depend on what he was actually charged with.  

As for Josh failing ... I don't wish anyone ill will but the fact of the matter is that it's hard to estimate how many cheaters cheat again (because let's face it, people aren't exactly going to own up to it in the first place, much less the second).  And we have seen no evidence of recidivism in regards to the molestation.  I don't wish Josh or Anna or any of them ill.  I'm just really, really, really sick of seeing them and their type (meaning F-list reality "stars") continually cash-in on their own shit behavior and misdeeds.  And yes, the audience that buys into that crap is just as culpable as the people selling it.

In all likelihood the molestations would have been handled by DCF. Josh would have been removed form the home for a period of time, and both he and JB & M would have had to complete a service plan. The service plan probably would have included therapy for the girls, the parents and Josh, parenting classes for JB & M, and a residential program for Josh. 

Most likely the police never would have been involved. However considering the age difference between Josh and the then 5 year old, if DCF had the case they might have involved the police. And still yet, there would be no guarantee that he would have been charged with anything.

[kokapetl]

There's evidence that CPS did intervene in the family after Oprah notified them. Josh appealed an administrative ruling against him. We aren't privy to the details, and we shouldn't be. I think it's in accurate to say Josh continued to get away with it after CPS arrived. There's no record of further deviant offenses. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by ingenting

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, ingenting said:

There's evidence that CPS did intervene in the family after Oprah notified them. Josh appealed an administrative ruling against him. We aren't privy to the details, and we shouldn't be. I think it's in accurate to say Josh continued to get away with it after CPS arrived. There's no record of further deviant offenses. 

Oh, I thought the documents that were made public pertained to the investigation prompted by Oprah's team reporting the allegations to the police. Prior to that I thought the Duggars handled it through their "church elders" and a state cop that was a casual friend. It's all confusing to me. But I thought CPS/DCF were never involved.

[Absolom]

I think CPS was involved after the police couldn't go any further due to the statute of limitations.

On second thought I'm not firmly sure on that, but there was some documentation that at some point CPS was involved.  In the TV interviews with Megan Kelley I think it was Jill talked a bit about it and made a claim something like CPS was impressed with how well her parents did.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Absolom

[JoanArc]

Quote

In the TV interviews with Megan Kelley I think it was Jill talked a bit about it and made a claim something like CPS was impressed with how well her parents did.

I remember Jill saying that. What was the recent CPS visit about, giving Michelle a MOTY award?

[kokapetl]

13 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Oh, I thought the documents that were made public pertained to the investigation prompted by Oprah's team reporting the allegations to the police. Prior to that I thought the Duggars handled it through their "church elders" and a state cop that was a casual friend. It's all confusing to me. But I thought CPS/DCF were never involved.

A local journalist saw a folder marked Josh Duggar v Arkansas CPS, or something similar, and it had a 2007 case number.

[Churchhoney]

13 hours ago, Absolom said:

 I think it was Jill talked a bit about it and made a claim something like CPS was impressed with how well her parents did.

This is something that Jill said for the same reason the Rodriguez children say that both public and Christian schools are seething hotbeds of constant deadly sin. Her parents told her that this was true and she's a little robot -- albeit, now, a young adult robot -- who parrots and believes every damned thing JB and M tell her. They're rotten idiots, but they've still been able to successfully program a houseful of people to believe that they're both infallible and fabulous.

I get how they did that. What I don't get though, I must say, is how they also seem to have programmed the leghumpers to believe it. Wishful thinking and gullibility are strong strong forces, I guess.

[Joe Jitsu913]

19 hours ago, JoanArc said:

I remember Jill saying that. What was the recent CPS visit about, giving Michelle a MOTY award?

The Duggars are incessant liars.  Whatever Jill Michelle Duggar Dillard says; always believe the opposite  because you know she's full of shit.

[kokapetl]

CPS records don't appear to be public records (thank god). 

[questionfear]

So I was at my dry cleaner today, and they always have random pamplets and business cards for local services...and there was a whole stack of pamphlets for Reformers Unanimous. It caught my eye because it said RU and rehab, and this is central NJ, so for us RU is Rutgers University. But apparently there's also a fundie rehab facility nearby...maybe they will send Josh Duggar here if his first round didn't take. 

Though it might be a bad idea to let him be a short train ride away from NYC.

[Muffyn]

If Josh does a second stint at RU, he'll go back to the mothership in Illinois.  The RU folks really like it when people become "lifers" and move to Rockford to stay under their thumb protection and guidance.  Of course when Josh was there they had to limit the live streaming of some of their activities.  We didn't get to see them hand out their multitudinous awards which include both "fruit" and "branches." 

In the spirit of RU, I award you all the snark fruit and perseverance branch. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

10 hours ago, Muffyn said:

If Josh does a second stint at RU, he'll go back to the mothership in Illinois.  The RU folks really like it when people become "lifers" and move to Rockford to stay under their thumb protection and guidance.  Of course when Josh was there they had to limit the live streaming of some of their activities.  We didn't get to see them hand out their multitudinous awards which include both "fruit" and "branches." 

In the spirit of RU, I award you all the snark fruit and perseverance branch. 

That could be a viable employment opportunity for Smuggs...Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, it will get him away from the mother ship, aka the TTH.

[toodles]

10 hours ago, Muffyn said:

If Josh does a second stint at RU, he'll go back to the mothership in Illinois.  The RU folks really like it when people become "lifers" and move to Rockford to stay under their thumb protection and guidance.  Of course when Josh was there they had to limit the live streaming of some of their activities.  We didn't get to see them hand out their multitudinous awards which include both "fruit" and "branches." 

In the spirit of RU, I award you all the snark fruit and perseverance branch. 

He is already under jimboob' s thumb, er, protection and guidance.  Maybe the ru and boob can take turns grinding him in to the ground

[Henri205]

Mods, I'm not sure if it's okay to post this so please remove if it's not appropriate or outside site guidelines.  

My parents used to take us to a lovely resort in Vermont called Smuggler's Notch.  Not a pitch for them in any way but Google it and look at the site's address.  I've been giggling about it since I heard a commercial on the radio yesterday. 

[Henri205]

Maybe this was covered someplace else in this site, but Reformers Unanimous?  I wondered if they meant Reformers Anonymous but were too stupid to know the difference.  Once again, I'll find the door and let myself out.  Have a nice bottle of Merlot to share.  Stop by the Prayer Closet. 

[JoanArc]

31 minutes ago, Henri205 said:

Maybe this was covered someplace else in this site, but Reformers Unanimous?  I wondered if they meant Reformers Anonymous but were too stupid to know the difference.  Once again, I'll find the door and let myself out.  Have a nice bottle of Merlot to share.  Stop by the Prayer Closet. 

It's just so they can seem somewhat legitimate, because the name resembles AA. Much like how the Duggars will occasionally go to a mainstream church, to hide that they are their own church.

[Lemur]

On 5/14/2016 at 8:02 AM, ingenting said:

A local journalist saw a folder marked Josh Duggar v Arkansas CPS, or something similar, and it had a 2007 case number.

Here's a detailed and thorough timeline of the scandal, based on public records and statements right up until 19&C got canceled.  

(And no, I don't have this bookmarked for easy reference ... I do searches for it often enough that it's the top suggestion though.)

[WescottF1]

Last time he was here in Rockford, a woman I work with was 99% sure she saw him at a local donut shop but couldn't figure out a way to discreetly snap a pic.  The donut shop isn't too far from the RU men's pris-.. erm, I mean dorms so it's quite likely she was right.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Much has been made of Smuggs being out on Mothers Day with his phone tied to his face. I can only imagine how embarrassed he must be.  With respect to the law, he's an innocent man as he was never tried for his errant adolescent behavior, but it's cringeworthy all the same.  The adultery was him acting in the capacity of an adult....and there's been a lot of public sympathy and support for Anna.

Several years ago, a politician from a prominent Texas family was sitting 2 tables away from me when my server told me who he was..and I'd heard about a week prior to that he'd just been found out for cheating on his wife.  He looked very crestfallen and embarrassed to be there as I discreetly looked over.  I figured he at least deserved to eat in peace. 

The Smuggar story is terribly boring...just like every other boring and stupid thing the Duggars do.  There's either another scandal about to boil over or he will write a tell all book...not sure how he'll do that since his handlers won't let him anywhere a computer and he probably has to have an accountability partner to visit the prayer closet.

[sometimesy]

What if Smuggs decides to hedge his bets. Lets say he does the redemption tour (complete with the book, speaking engagement, People cover, maybe even a TLC special), until his popularity dies down. Then, in a few years, the security gets lax and he does the tell-all: more speaking engagements, another People cover, maybe another TLC special and a possible non profit organization (of course he profits as the sole administrator).  Have his cake and eat it  too... and Anna's cake, and the kids cake, and JB's cake. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

3 hours ago, sometimesy said:

What if Smuggs decides to hedge his bets. Lets say he does the redemption tour (complete with the book, speaking engagement, People cover, maybe even a TLC special), until his popularity dies down. Then, in a few years, the security gets lax and he does the tell-all: more speaking engagements, another People cover, maybe another TLC special and a possible non profit organization (of course he profits as the sole administrator).  Have his cake and eat it  too... and Anna's cake, and the kids cake, and JB's cake. 

Sounds like a winner winner chicken dinner idea to me.  Even for all the repulsive thing Smuggs has done, I still find his father far more repugnant and odious for not getting Josh or his sisters proper qualified help.  The oppressive and repressive environment Boob created contributed to the damage done to his kids and others.

[kokapetl]

3 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

Much has been made of Smuggs being out on Mothers Day with his phone tied to his face. I can only imagine how embarrassed he must be.  With respect to the law, he's an innocent man as he was never tried for his errant adolescent behavior, but it's cringeworthy all the same.  The adultery was him acting in the capacity of an adult....and there's been a lot of public sympathy and support for Anna.

Several years ago, a politician from a prominent Texas family was sitting 2 tables away from me when my server told me who he was..and I'd heard about a week prior to that he'd just been found out for cheating on his wife.  He looked very crestfallen and embarrassed to be there as I discreetly looked over.  I figured he at least deserved to eat in peace. 

The Smuggar story is terribly boring...just like every other boring and stupid thing the Duggars do.  There's either another scandal about to boil over or he will write a tell all book...not sure how he'll do that since his handlers won't let him anywhere a computer and he probably has to have an accountability partner to visit the prayer closet.

I can just see JimChelle pretending and insisting that everything is alright, when everything is not alright for Josh. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by ingenting

[Arwen Evenstar]

31 minutes ago, ingenting said:

I can just see JimChelle pretending and insisting that everything is alright, when everything is not alright for Josh. 

Things are far from all right for Josh, but even Josh isn't allowed to think that. I wonder if he knows that on some level and how painful it must be for him to realize that shaving his head and forced labor and praying it away has likely only made his mental state worse, not better.

Though many of us think that Jish is a grown ass man, he's been stunted and controlled...you can bet he's likely got little of his own money or a credit card to his name to make his escape,

[Fuzzysox]

Once a used car salesman always a used car salesman:

 

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20981907_21007068,00.html?xid=socialflow_facebook_peoplemag

[Lemur]

1 minute ago, Fuzzysox said:

Once a used car salesman always a used car salesman:

 

http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20981907_21007068,00.html?xid=socialflow_facebook_peoplemag

"Of the residents of Tontitown, where most of the Duggars reside, the source says that 'it seems like people don't really care (about the scandals).'"

Of course they don't.  They've known about the molestations since roughly 2007 and are well versed in Josh's less-than-godly behavior.  They're probably like "par for the course".

[Minivanessa]

He's wearing shorts in those photos. Do JB and MEchelle allow their sons to wear shorts?

Edited May 18, 2016 by Jeeves

[Rabbittron]

1 minute ago, Jeeves said:

He's wearing shorts in those photos. Do JB and MEchelle allow their sons to wear shorts?

The boys are allowed to wear shorts as only the girls defraud males. Males do not defraud females. 

[Ljohnson1987]

I bet no one will want to buy a car from Smugs now.

[Aja]

8 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

The boys are allowed to wear shorts as only the girls defraud males. Males do not defraud females. 

Especially not those males.

[BitterApple]

So Boob's making Josh sell used cars again. If that isn't the ultimate fuck you, then I don't know what it is. Boob was always mad that Josh defied him and went to D.C. against his wishes. Should we set the over/under as to when Josh has a complete meltdown or just walks away and never comes back? I'm going with eight months. Or maybe earlier, if Anna announces she's expecting M#5.

[riverblue22]

Shorts on guys--isn't that something rather new?  It seemed like they were always in jeans until Bin and DDD came along sporting the shorts.  I don't think they were always acceptable.

Edited May 18, 2016 by riverblue22

[Aja]

Quote

Nearly a year to the day after news broke that Duggar had inappropriately touched five underage girls when he was a teen...

*sexually molested HIS OWN SISTERS. Fixed it for you, People.

[Marigold]

1 hour ago, Jeeves said:

He's wearing shorts in those photos. Do JB and MEchelle allow their sons to wear shorts?

As an ex-Fund, some shorts are acceptable if they cover the knee. Jim Bob and Michelle did not allow shorts but it seems lately, they have loosened up a bit. So, in a Fund group, some shorts would be Ok if they covered the knee. Many people gave up on shorts because when you sit, they expose the thigh and it turns out to be a bigger hassle than anything.  It's easier to wear pants. It's one of those "why even bother?" issues.  

At least Josh is wearing shorts...knowing Josh, anything is possible.   

[kokapetl]

Duggar Automotive, find us at the empty field opposite Starbucks! 

The People magazine watermark on the photos always makes me think initially that they're Beverly Hills: 90210 branded. 

In a Very Special Beverly Hills, 90210, Brenda, Kelly and the gang go camping. Scott Scanlon dies after Campground Guide Josh lets Scott have access to the rifles.

Edited May 18, 2016 by ingenting

[JoanArc]

Quote

s. Should we set the over/under as to when Josh has a complete meltdown or just walks away and never comes back

One year or two more pregnancies.

[toodles]

At least Josh isn't a "real estate broker".  I think that selling cars may be right up his alley.  It takes someone with the gift of gab and some grifter instincts.

Apologies to any car people out there.  That's just my observation.

[Marigold]

Hahaha, Josh would be showing all the bedrooms...suggesting a pole could fit nicely over there...whoops! 

[Sew Sumi]

Looks like he's "selling" from that grassy strip of land that Boob owns next to the highway where they showed Jinger trying to flip her car. So yeah, no real lot, or business for that matter.

How many cars is each person allowed to sell again? Four a year? That won't feed Smuggar and his brood for long.

[GeeGolly]

13 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Looks like he's "selling" from that grassy strip of land that Boob owns next to the highway where they showed Jinger trying to flip her car. So yeah, no real lot, or business for that matter.

How many cars is each person allowed to sell again? Four a year? That won't feed Smuggar and his brood for long.

It's so bizarre that they can do that. In my state not only are there laws about how many cars non dealers can sell, there is also laws about how many unregistered vehicles one can have on their property at any given time. And there is no way anyone would be allowed to line up and park cars that are for sale along the highway. And then there are Lemon Laws; in my state only an individual citizen can sell a car "as is", or a car dealer can wholesale a car to another dealer "as is". If anyone of them is a registered used car dealer they have to fix certain things on any car they sell up to 90 days after the sale.

The laws are in place to keep people from running an unregistered business in a residential zone. They don't want folks to avoid paying taxes, avoid following guarantees, and cluttering up neighborhoods with parked cars.

They'd be shut down in my neck of the woods.