Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[3girlsforus]

My father did his PhD with three small children and a non-working wife, and I've known men with more children. He worked full time while doing it, and there were no on-line classes. It can be done.

He is going to have to learn to talk openly with Anna about what he wants and what it means for their family, and how it can mean more children later if they can just slow down now.

 

Once again GEML nailed it. He has to learn to talk to Anna about what he wants and what he thinks needs to happen. This is a huge reason the courting setup the Duggars have is a huge, bad thing. They don't learn to honestly communicate. They aren't able to express their real wishes. They have preconceived ideas of what the other person thinks based on what their parents believe and what they think their future spouse believes. And most importantly they have no life experience on which to decide what they want for themselves. So now Josh and Anna are stuck wanting two different things. If Anna knows Josh doesn't want more kids, she probably feels betrayed because I'm sure she was under the impression he was 'quiverful'. Josh probably feels let down by Anna who keeps wanting more kids while he is trying to tell her to think about other things - like housing, job after DC etc. because in he was raised to believe that the man is in charge. It just reminds me of a scene from the movie 'Fools Rush In' about two people who marry after a one night stand. They are in the kitchen with some friends and the woman discovers her new husband doesn't live in Vegas where they met but in NYC. Her friend says 'see now that is something you usually talk about on a second date'. Courting turns the first few years of marriage into early dating with the only difference being you can't end the relationship if you don't agree.

[NausetGirl]

I think Josh is having a mid-life crisis -- I think he went from 20 to 40 in just a couple of years.

 

Think about the enthusiastic clean cut boy of the 14 kids special who wanted to be a lawyer and go into politics, and look at the fat, balding man with 3 kids and a fourth on the way.

 

I think he envisioned his life as a successful politician with an attractive wife and 2-3 attractive children standing behind him as he gave his acceptance speech on election night. I think it's becoming more and more clear to him that that life is never going to happen.

 

I also think that he thought that he and Anna were on the same page about family size -- all the little inside jokes and knowing looks between them. She may have meant it, too, but the breeding thing is just too deeply ingrained in her, and the pressure was just too strong.

 

I don't particularly like Josh, and I loathe his politics, but I do feel sorry for him. His plans of going to law school are just not going to materialize -- and he must know it now. He would have to complete an undergraduate degree, and a law school degree with four small children at home -- and probably more before he finished school. Anna would never get a job and help out -- even if she had any marketable skills, they have small children and child-care costs would far outstrip what she could earn.

 

He's stuck at the FRC for as long as they'll have him, and then it's back to Arkansas and used cars. He's not going anywhere, and he know it.

 

Completely agree. And IMO, the weight of this knowledge for Josh could very well explain the deteoriation in his physical appearance. He may actually be worrying himself sick.

[carrps]

Josh is also around women all day, conservative women, but working women at FRC. They are not empty-headed, baby talking, baby making automatons.  I think DC has shaken him up and I agree he's reevaluating his life. He may be a stress eater. Eating brings him comfort and it may be he's been really needing it lately.

This really rings true to me. I had a coworker who had married in his teens -- more or less straight out of high school -- and his wife was the same age. They had three kids right away, and neither of them got any education further than h.s. He was able to work his way through on-the-job training into a decently paying job, and his wife did parttime waitressing.

 

He once told me and another woman in our work group that he'd never known women as smart as us. !!! We both have BAs and are reasonable outspoken with opinions about all and sundry, but I'd only put us at a bit above average.

 

It's so sad to me when I think of men who no nothing about women but what they are as wives and moms.

[cereality]

I agree with whoever said he looks like he's worrying himself sick. I've definitely gone through phases where constant stress has changed my appearance, and that could be at play with Josh as well. I think he likes the life that he has now, and he is worrying himself sick about whether or not he'll get to keep it. He's been in DC for what -- a yr or 2 now? In that time, I'm sure he's learned that DC/politics are fickle and someone who is on top today can be yesterday's news next week. That happens to many/most in DC and they do land, but then they are usually well credentialed -- big name colleges, law schools/PhDs etc. It's also hard enough to maintain a middle class life in a big east coast city, but he's realizing that having a kid every 2 yrs will doom him to returning to Arkansas -- what he can provide on his salary for 3 kids is great; that same amount for 6 or 8 or 12 kids will be REALLY hand to mouth and returning to Arkansas where everything is cheaper -- from food to car insurance -- will become the only viable option if they turn into a mega family.

 

Add to that that he's probably realizing how wrong and dumb his parents were -- but can't say it -- and I'd imagine he's feeling pretty ripped off in life. His parents' brand of fundie includes a belief in no education because it'll corrupt you/make you lose touch with religion and cause you to sit next to purple haired folks in class. He -- as the oldest -- bought into that fully, esp bc I think oldest kids question their parents less. Now he goes out into the real world and is working with all sorts of other conservatives who he's probably realizing are good Christians and they have college degrees and law degrees and no purple hair and are married with 1-2 kids. Now he has a bro in law who is a good Christian who has a business degree from a state school and another who is at least taking college classes, who his father allowed to marry his precious baby daughters and I'm sure he's thinking -- WTF -- you didn't let me go to college but college educated sons in law are just fine!? Granted he can't sit around blaming his parents forever, but I'm sure it's there just under the surface. Add to that that he also can't confide in his wife who is supposed to be his soulmate. I feel like in this situation, a lot of wives would do anything possible to help their husband's achieve what they needed. Maybe that wouldn't be law school, but it could at least be a B.A. or A.A. degree. I mean he could start with an A.A. from wherever Derick is attending and do that online mostly. If would take years to go class by class through an A.A. and then eventually a B.A., but with online education it isn't impossible; but for the fact that I don't see Anna taking well to Josh saying on nights/weekends -- sorry no time for baby making or trips to the farmers market or wherever, you're on your own, I need to study for an exam next week.

[BitterApple]

And I am sorry for beating a dead horse, but Anna should not be expecting family aka her sister-in-laws to come running to hold her hand and help raise her children. Millions of women can handle it on a daily basis so can poor, poor Anna.

Amen. I have no issue with a woman hiring a sitter or nanny to have a little extra help around the house. What I don't like is the expectation that Cinderjana is available at the drop of a hat to come to D.C. and provide child care because Anna can't hack it on her own. I used to baby-sit my niece and nephew all the time, but I never felt taken advantage of or that my time wasn't respected. I think Anna is becoming a lot like Michelle in that aspect, where she expects everyone to pitch in with her kids "just because."

 

ETA: I think finishing a degree while working and raising a family is doable, but it requires a ton of discipline, which ain't exactly in the Duggars' wheelhouse.

Edited December 19, 2014 by BitterApple

[cereality]

What I don't understand is -- these people are raised to believe that the man is the headship and when a woman marries, authority goes from her father to her husband. So why is it that in all of the marriages -- JB/Michelle; Josh/Anna; Jill/Derick; Jessa/Ben -- what the women want is exactly what happens? What happened to what the headship wants? Now as newlyweds, I kind of understand. Sex is so shiny and new that that is likely all the headship wants, and if that means that the wife requires him to be home at 5 pm and get together for lunch 3 times a week (Jill) or impregnate her yearly (Michelle) or move to her area and work for her dad (Jessa), then fine -- the husband will do that because he wants to keep the wife happy so that they get it on as much as possible.

 

However 6 years into it, I can't imagine that Josh is SO blown away by sex anymore. Once Anna delivers number 4 and a few months later is cooing about baby fever and trying for number 5, why can't Josh go to her then and say "look I've been praying about it, and as the headship I strongly believe the Lord is telling me -- let's take care of the kids we have and no more kids right now. We'll leave it in his hands and if it happens, it happens, but no active trying" -- and then dial it way down on the sex so that it doesn't happen? Or why can't he go to her now and talk about how he's been praying about how to provide for his growing family and the Lord is telling him that he needs to go to college to secure the family's financial future, so he has to do it because it's coming from above. How can Anna possibly disagree if Josh presents it as something he's prayed about for a long time?

[GEML]

I actually had one friend who did go and get a vasectomy citing "headship" decisions because he simply couldn't trust his wife to be honest with him about when it was safe to have sex and when it wasn't, and she always complained when he used condoms. (And they did not have four!)

Given how close the pregnancies are, breast feeding and how young they were when they were married, it's also possibly that Anna herself has never not been pregnant/nursing to know what a consistent cycle looks like to plan around. Lots of women don't have that in their late teens, and the fact that she didn't get pregnant until four months into their marriage shows maybe she wasn't aware, and she really hasn't had a chance since. So there goes the rhythm method, even if she's on board.

[RottinginNS]

Almost every fundamentalist group out there wears long hair.  Many pull it up over or cover it so the hair can only be seen by their husbands, but it's almost always long.  This would include not only Gothard, but also Pentecostals, Amish, quite a few traditional sects of mainstream churches.  The only exceptions that I can think of are Orthodox Judaism, which shaves their head so they can wear wigs because their heads must be covered at all times to anyone except their husbands and this was several different sects way of doing so, and Catholic nuns in very strict orders that still wear the coif do this as well -- the shaving or close cutting so that their heads are covered.  The fact that Gothard has instructions to men saying that they must make allowances for women to take time to do their hair shows that this is about much more than Jim Bob.

But he must like that 80's spiral perm and crunchy bangs, because why on earth would Michelle still be wearing it?  Not even Bill Gothard can be fully responsible for that!  :)

A few seasons ago Michele was sent for a makeover by some of her girls. She looked fab but of course neither she nor "daddy" liked the new updated do. Shame

[BonnieLW]

God save their lives, not the doctor.

Do you know what the cure for preeclampsia is? Termination of the pregnancy. You can wrap it up in flowery language like the baby was premature, but she was taken from the womb early. Abortion is termination of a pregnancy. The Frc is very much against all abortions even if the mothers life is in danger. The politics the Duggars push would result in the deaths of many mothers and Michelle would have been one. She had labor induced because the pregnancy was killing her and she her husband and her doctor discussed her options and made a choice between them. No politician was consulted. But please let's take that option away from others.

[Sew Sumi]

Taking response to the Religion thread.

[RedheadZombie]

I don't think it's fair to blame Anna for Josh's failed dreams of being an attorney. That was never a realistic dream. His education is too subpar and he would probably be required to work under a non-believer. As to wicked Anna forcing poor Josh to have endless children, again that is something that their religion dictates the wife to obey the husband.

I think it's total bullshit that Josh is now realizing how hard it is. He had front row seats to the hell that was Jana and Jill's life since they were very young. He was the oldest when Michelle had her breakdown. I would argue that Josh is the one person in this family who truly saw the misery of the lifestyle. And the suggestion that poor Josh wouldn't be able to study because Anna would selfishly leave the children with him instead of taking all of those kids to the grocery store ...... Just don't really know what to say.

[Micks Picks]

I don't think Josh would ever be an attorney anyway, the thing is these 2 just aren't on the same page anymore.  Anna is a one trick pony with no personal growth.  As I said before the only topic for her is babies.  They can't discuss tv shows together because they don't watch much together.  Ditto movies.  She is not versed in history or business or stats, or the workings of government or politics beyond their narrow framework.  She doesn't study poll sci at all, or geography or literature or anything.  If she took a class it would be in child development or whatever.  There is nothing to her beyond 2 minutes in her range of topics for conversation.  Boring, boring, and boring.

[Temperance]

I also think that he thought that he and Anna were on the same page about family size -- all the little inside jokes and knowing looks between them. She may have meant it, too, but the breeding thing is just too deeply ingrained in her, and the pressure was just too strong.

 I don't necessarily think either of them necessarily "chose" this. I don't want to get to personal about Josh and Anna, so I'll talk in generalities.  Generally most couples who don't use any formal birth control get pregnant. The rhythm method is considered a less reliable form of birth control. Some women either have unreliable menstrual cycles or get distracted by the day to day life and lose tack. You have to keep careful track of your cycle every single day which is not necessarily convenient when you have small children who need 24/7 supervision. There also may be nights where both husband and wife are tired and decide just to risk or they had sex at low risk time which still can result in pregnancy. These risks probably go up when under 30. Also a lot of women are amazingly bad at math (Seriously!).

Keep in mind Gothard was actually against Rhythm method. 

I'm not a big fan of the Duggars, even Anna, and  I tend to be snarky towards them. I don't believe what they believe. I don't believe it's a woman fault if a man is attracted to her and/or wants to have sex. I don't believe a woman is a bad person because she wants to have sex in or not in a relationship. I believe both men and women are responsible or should take responsibility for their actions including their sexual decisions and their procreative decisions.

This means I wouldn't say she defrauded him into pregnancy. Both parties made choices. 

 

He is going to have to learn to talk openly with Anna about what he wants and what it means for their family, and how it can mean more children later if they can just slow down now.

 

Or if he never wants more children, he needs to figure out how to deal with family planning and talk to Anna. If he doesn't want more children, he needs to find a way to accept that and accept that they together can make decisions together and take stronger precautions.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Temperance

[floridamom]

There are some very good observations being made here. I think that Josh would have a real struggle with conscience here with he and Anna making ANY personal private decisions that even remotely went "against" their parents' teachings. The reason I suspect this is because in earlier TV interviews, Josh's parents went on to say that these " private times" one on one with each child was little more than a 'personal confession' time; they wanted to know what their kids were thinking; and they were m/l required to reveal any and all thoughts they had that might be considered unfollowing or sinful in their belief system and their parents' minds. Having grown up with a confess all to your parents, or risk sin mindset, it's hard for Josh, IMO, to change that mold and "hold something from his parents". I agree that this guy could be having quite a struggle with conscience here and has to deal with a steel trap minded young,, immature wife who has signed up for the baby derby and wants little else herself.

[natyxg]

I think Josh is having a mid-life crisis -- I think he went from 20 to 40 in just a couple of years.

 

Think about the enthusiastic clean cut boy of the 14 kids special who wanted to be a lawyer and go into politics, and look at the fat, balding man with 3 kids and a fourth on the way.

 

I think he envisioned his life as a successful politician with an attractive wife and 2-3 attractive children standing behind him as he gave his acceptance speech on election night. I think it's becoming more and more clear to him that that life is never going to happen.

 

I also think that he thought that he and Anna were on the same page about family size -- all the little inside jokes and knowing looks between them. She may have meant it, too, but the breeding thing is just too deeply ingrained in her, and the pressure was just too strong.

 

I don't particularly like Josh, and I loathe his politics, but I do feel sorry for him. His plans of going to law school are just not going to materialize -- and he must know it now. He would have to complete an undergraduate degree, and a law school degree with four small children at home -- and probably more before he finished school. Anna would never get a job and help out -- even if she had any marketable skills, they have small children and child-care costs would far outstrip what she could earn.

 

He's stuck at the FRC for as long as they'll have him, and then it's back to Arkansas and used cars. He's not going anywhere, and he know it.

 

Well, this feels very accurate. And I too think about how he used to be when I see him now. Its kind of sad. Frankly, I think Josh and the rest of the Duggar kids were "tainted" by the show and the fame it brought them. You can't make a bunch of kids famous and not expect it to sort of go to their heads. Then their same religion and public persona expects them to have no education, to get married young and have a million babies. This is not easy or glamourous, at all, and i think it would be easier for people who lived more low key lives more focused on family and church, not book tours, travels around the world, magazine covers and etc etc. Things like that are bound to make them expect more of life and become more self centered, and the fall to reality has got to be HARD.

 

Hell, I don't know if I'm making sense, but I watch the Duggar kids and I can never see any of them with 19 kids and being super happy. Josh seems already at the stressed out/i'm trapped/¡no more children! ¡aaaahhhhh! stage.

[3girlsforus]

There are some very good observations being made here. I think that Josh would have a real struggle with conscience here with he and Anna making ANY personal private decisions that even remotely went "against" their parents' teachings. The reason I suspect this is because in earlier TV interviews, Josh's parents went on to say that these " private times" one on one with each child was little more than a 'personal confession' time; they wanted to know what their kids were thinking; and they were m/l required to reveal any and all thoughts they had that might be considered unfollowing or sinful in their belief system and their parents' minds. Having grown up with a confess all to your parents, or risk sin mindset, it's hard for Josh, IMO, to change that mold and "hold something from his parents". I agree that this guy could be having quite a struggle with conscience here and has to deal with a steel trap minded young,, immature wife who has signed up for the baby derby and wants little else herself.

 

I have been trying to find a way to verbalize this and you did a great job. I think in addition to the struggle of conscience, he probably is surprised and confused to discover so much of what his parents taught him just isn't true. He didn't just come from a family where he was sheltered and had lots of rules. Those rules were linked to godliness. He was taught that godly people act like the Duggars. Those that don't, aren't godly. Where Christianity centers on Christ as the savior, Duggaranity focuses on Duggar rules as the 'Christian yardstick'. Now he's undoubtedly meeting good Christian people who use birth control, wear pants, cut their hair, get educations (both men and women) *gasp* drink alcohol etc. and he has to reconcile that with what he's been indoctrinated in all his life. Add to that the struggle of conscience knowing what his parents would say/do if he chooses to develop his own belief system.... it can't be easy for him.

Edited December 20, 2014 by 3girlsforus

[BitterApple]

I don't think it's fair to blame Anna for Josh's failed dreams of being an attorney. That was never a realistic dream. His education is too subpar and he would probably be required to work under a non-believer. As to wicked Anna forcing poor Josh to have endless children, again that is something that their religion dictates the wife to obey the husband.

I think it's total bullshit that Josh is now realizing how hard it is. He had front row seats to the hell that was Jana and Jill's life since they were very young. He was the oldest when Michelle had her breakdown. I would argue that Josh is the one person in this family who truly saw the misery of the lifestyle. And the suggestion that poor Josh wouldn't be able to study because Anna would selfishly leave the children with him instead of taking all of those kids to the grocery store ...... Just don't really know what to say.

I agree. I think the fact that he's well aware of how much their lives sucked before the TLC Sugar Daddies stepped in is precisely the reason he doesn't want a horde of children. Even when Anna was pregnant with Kenzie, Josh repeatedly said he'd be happy with two or three kids. I don't think limiting his family size is something that came about with the move to D.C.

[GEML]

I don't blame Anna at all, and I think that Josh is fully aware that more children are in their future. But they are also young enough that they could take a break now for, say three or four years, raise the children they have, and then go and have a "second setting" as my grandmother would say. This would give them time to plan for his career with some education, give Anna some time to raise these children, not endanger her health, and then, with the next batch, Anna would have four older children to help out (I'm less traumatized by losers helping you gets if it lasts for one child.)

They could still easily have eight kids.

[BuddyMom]

Anna is only 26 right? She's on track for a baby every 2 years and has 10-15 years left (minimally) of childbearing. That means unless something permanent is done by josh, he will have at least 5-6 more kids. Good luck with that Josh! You think you look awful now....

[NausetGirl]

My father did his PhD with three small children and a non-working wife, and I've known men with more children. He worked full time while doing it, and there were no on-line classes. It can be done.

He is going to have to learn to talk openly with Anna about what he wants and what it means for their family, and how it can mean more children later if they can just slow down now.

 

Completely true - it CAN be done. But with the indoctrination of his upbringing and all the current pressures on him, will Josh be able to basically say "no" to his parents - at least on some issues - and take the reins of his life into his own hands?  That's a pretty tall order, IMO...

I agree with this. If he can convince Anna to at least be okay with them using condoms, then they can have a break between kids and maybe he could go to school and at least get an undergrad degree. It would be easier on Anna because if they had a break in between sets of kids then the first four would be older and could help out. I'm hoping that once Anna has a fourth and realizes how tough life is in DC without help and 4 kids that she'll come around to the same thinking.

 

I do think if in the next couple of years she gets pregnant with a fifth, Josh will try and figure out a way to have a vasectomy.

 

I know it sounds incredible, but I'm actually wondering whether Josh knows what a vasectomy is...

[NausetGirl]

I have been trying to find a way to verbalize this and you did a great job. I think in addition to the struggle of conscience, he probably is surprised and confused to discover so much of what his parents taught him just isn't true. He didn't just come from a family where he was sheltered and had lots of rules. Those rules were linked to godliness. He was taught that godly people act like the Duggars. Those that don't, aren't godly. Where Christianity centers on Christ as the savior, Duggaranity focuses on Duggar rules as the 'Christian yardstick'. Now he's undoubtedly meeting good Christian people who use birth control, wear pants, cut their hair, get educations (both men and women) *gasp* drink alcohol etc. and he has to reconcile that with what he's been indoctrinated in all his life. Add to that the struggle of conscience knowing what his parents would say/do if he chooses to develop his own belief system.... it can't be easy for him.

 

Well-said. I think this MUST be true, and it is completely blowing Josh's mind right now. The fact that a great deal of the blather he's heard all his life from Boob and Mechelle and others is simply not the case. When Josh came to Washington, he basically landed on another planet. And I think he's liking that planet.

Edited December 20, 2014 by NausetGirl

[BitterApple]

When Josh came to Washington, he basically landed on another planet. And I think he's liking that planet.

I think he's loving it. I think Josh, Josiah, Jed and Jer are more yuppie-ish in their tastes and goals. I think Josh's current lifestyle is a dream come true for him and I can see him being really depressed if he has to move back to Arkansas and sell used cars.

[cereality]

I don't think Josh would ever be an attorney anyway, the thing is these 2 just aren't on the same page anymore.  Anna is a one trick pony with no personal growth.  As I said before the only topic for her is babies.  They can't discuss tv shows together because they don't watch much together.  Ditto movies.  She is not versed in history or business or stats, or the workings of government or politics beyond their narrow framework.  She doesn't study poll sci at all, or geography or literature or anything.  If she took a class it would be in child development or whatever.  There is nothing to her beyond 2 minutes in her range of topics for conversation.  Boring, boring, and boring.

I agree that being an attorney would be a reach given his minimal education, but honestly he may be happy if he just starts taking classes towards an associates degree and then continues until he has a B.A. from a 4 yr school.

 

Honestly I'm not sure that they were ever on the same page. In their method of courting, you don't get to spend time alone and a lot of things are assumed based on your families and beliefs. So Anna thought -- he's a Duggar, they're the paradigm of Godlyness in our circle -- of course I'm getting a man who wants to be fruitful and multiple more than anything else so I'll get at least 8+ kids out of this marriage. Conversely Josh thought -- yeah kids are great, of course we'll have kids but having lived with 18 siblings, I don't need 18 kids; 2-3 is plenty for me and I'll convince Anna that's enough for her too; frankly after experiencing childbirth a few times, she may not want to go through it a million times anyway. And then they get married and I'm sure in their heart of hearts realize their spouse is not on the same page at all.

 

And to be fair to Anna -- yes she has nothing to talk about besides child rearing and maybe cooking, but is Josh all that worldly? Is there some evidence that he's watching TV and movies but his wife is refusing to watch with him? I don't seem him being all that knowledgeable about politics or world affairs, aside from FRC's views of the world. I wonder if they do have any interests/hobbies together to bond over? I think he's a UA fan -- I wonder if they watch college football together at least?

[NausetGirl]

 I don't necessarily think either of them necessarily "chose" this. I don't want to get to personal about Josh and Anna, so I'll talk in generalities.  Generally most couples who don't use any formal birth control get pregnant. The rhythm method is considered a less reliable form of birth control. Some women either have unreliable menstrual cycles or get distracted by the day to day life and lose tack. You have to keep careful track of your cycle every single day which is not necessarily convenient when you have small children who need 24/7 supervision. There also may be nights where both husband and wife are tired and decide just to risk or they had sex at low risk time which still can result in pregnancy. These risks probably go up when under 30. Also a lot of women are amazingly bad at math (Seriously!).

Keep in mind Gothard was actually against Rhythm method. 

I'm not a big fan of the Duggars, even Anna, and  I tend to be snarky towards them. I don't believe what they believe. I don't believe it's a woman fault if a man is attracted to her and/or wants to have sex. I don't believe a woman is a bad person because she wants to have sex in or not in a relationship. I believe both men and women are responsible or should take responsibility for their actions including their sexual decisions and their procreative decisions.

This means I wouldn't say she defrauded him into pregnancy. Both parties made choices. 

 

 

Or if he never wants more children, he needs to figure out how to deal with family planning and talk to Anna. If he doesn't want more children, he needs to find a way to accept that and accept that they together can make decisions together and take stronger precautions.

 

I have a suggestion for Josh on how to accomplish this - seriously.  Dear Josh, fall back on one of the lines you've heard 1000s of times in your past - one of Momma and Daddy's all-time greatest hits. Tell Anna God has "laid it on your heart" to limit your family and begin using birth control.

[3girlsforus]

I'm not really blaming either of them for their predicament. How could things turn out much differently marrying someone you really don't know. Honestly I think you are better off with a fully arranged marriage. At least you can go into it saying you don't know each other but we are committed to this so we need to talk about how to make it work. This courting stuff is a farce of 'being in love'. They didn't know each other well enough to be in love when they got married but they had been conditioned to believe this is how love happens. I can't imagine the pressure to conform, to convince themselves they want what they are told to want. 

[Missy Vixen]

And to be fair to Anna -- yes she has nothing to talk about besides child rearing and maybe cooking, but is Josh all that worldly? Is there some evidence that he's watching TV and movies but his wife is refusing to watch with him? I don't seem him being all that knowledgeable about politics or world affairs, aside from FRC's views of the world. I wonder if they do have any interests/hobbies together to bond over? I think he's a UA fan -- I wonder if they watch college football together at least?

I can't imagine if they talk or what they talk about. Seriously. Anna is obsessed with baby baby baby babies, and Josh is most likely realizing the huge gap between his family and the people he's working with and meeting as a result of his job. Seriously -- Josh wasn't brought up to be a reader. I'd love to know if Anna reads at all, despite the fact she took Kynzie to the library. They probably don't discuss current events (unless it's FRC-related) and/or anything that isn't church or family related. Of course, we're all surmising, but I wonder how lonely it would be to be in a marriage in which both parties had no idea what they'd gotten themselves into before the wedding, had four children at the speed of light, and had no way out as a result.

[Missy Vixen]

Honestly I think you are better off with a fully arranged marriage. At least you can go into it saying you don't know each other but we are committed to this so we need to talk about how to make it work.

We know a couple in an arranged marriage. The wife is my husband's former employer. They've been married for 30 years now, and their kids are grown and out of the house. I know they love each other, but they do not indulge in public displays of affection, unlike a certain family featured on a reality show...

[3girlsforus]

I wonder what Josh does at work. I can't fathom anything he brings to the party besides being a Duggar. How does that translate to actual work? 

[Joe Jitsu913]

I'm not really blaming either of them for their predicament. How could things turn out much differently marrying someone you really don't know. Honestly I think you are better off with a fully arranged marriage. At least you can go into it saying you don't know each other but we are committed to this so we need to talk about how to make it work. This courting stuff is a farce of 'being in love'. They didn't know each other well enough to be in love when they got married but they had been conditioned to believe this is how love happens. I can't imagine the pressure to conform, to convince themselves they want what they are told to want.

I cannot fathom being told who I'm going to marry. Yes, I understand that it is common practice in many cultures, but the thought of it makes me stabby.

[3girlsforus]

I cannot fathom being told who I'm going to marry. Yes, I understand that it is common practice in many cultures, but the thought of it makes me stabby.

I can't either but if I had to, I'd rather do an arraigned marriage than a Duggar courting scenario. 

[cmr2014]

I wonder how free Josh actually would be to go to college. Even beyond the cost and the time, Josh is the eldest brother in the family. If Josh were to go to college, the younger brothers might want to emulate him, and that would certainly open a can of worms . . .

 

The whole purpose of an undergraduate degree is to learn critical thinking skills. Things like facts and proof are essential for backing up ideas. Questioning what is read is not only desirable, it is required. The entire Gothard cult is based on non-critical thinking and the acceptance of authority. J'chelle has explicitly stated that "obedience" is the #1 trait desired in children. I don't know if JB and J'chelle really understand what a college degree brings, but I'm sure Gothard does. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that there is a strong anti-university education bias in his teachings.

 

In our reality, Josh is an adult who can make his own choices, in his reality, though, I don't know that he is. If he did something that displeased JB and J'chelle, he could lose everything -- job, house, fall-back car lot, the support of his family, and the extra $$$ that come from appearing on the show.

[NausetGirl]

I wonder what Josh does at work. I can't fathom anything he brings to the party besides being a Duggar. How does that translate to actual work? 

 

My theory is that Josh's job consists solely of being a public mouthpiece for the FRC. He basically reads the speeches written for him - at the publc appearances scheduled for him. He MAY have some input as to which appearances are scheduled.  But other than that I too am stumped as to how he actually spends the rest of his time in the office.  I'm guessing that a good chunk of it may be taken up with phoning home or reading/writing e-mails to/from home?

[3girlsforus]

My theory is that Josh's job consists solely of being a public mouthpiece for the FRC. He basically reads the speeches written for him - at the publc appearances scheduled for him. He MAY have some input as to which appearances are scheduled.  But other than that I too am stumped as to how he actually spends the rest of his time in the office.  I'm guessing that a good chunk of it may be taken up with phoning home or reading/writing e-mails to/from home?

 

So basically he's the mascot. I tried to think of an appropriate mascot costume but now I have to go to the prayer closet. :-)

[Darknight]

Do you know what the cure for preeclampsia is? Termination of the pregnancy. You can wrap it up in flowery language like the baby was premature, but she was taken from the womb early. Abortion is termination of a pregnancy. The Frc is very much against all abortions even if the mothers life is in danger. The politics the Duggars push would result in the deaths of many mothers and Michelle would have been one. She had labor induced because the pregnancy was killing her and she her husband and her doctor discussed her options and made a choice between them. No politician was consulted. But please let's take that option away from others.

Maybe if Anna has pre eclampsia maybe Josh should just pray to God and let him be a widow

[dillpickles]

Maybe if Anna has pre eclampsia maybe Josh should just pray to God and let him be a widow

With the 4 kids? Hellllllllll nah, bruh. But then again, he's a man, so I guess the m'crew would get dropped off and the j'slaves could raise them.

[Darknight]

I don't think it's fair to blame Anna for Josh's failed dreams of being an attorney. That was never a realistic dream. His education is too subpar and he would probably be required to work under a non-believer. As to wicked Anna forcing poor Josh to have endless children, again that is something that their religion dictates the wife to obey the husband.

I think it's total bullshit that Josh is now realizing how hard it is. He had front row seats to the hell that was Jana and Jill's life since they were very young. He was the oldest when Michelle had her breakdown. I would argue that Josh is the one person in this family who truly saw the misery of the lifestyle. And the suggestion that poor Josh wouldn't be able to study because Anna would selfishly leave the children with him instead of taking all of those kids to the grocery store ...... Just don't really know what to say.

Josh could change things, but why should he? People to to college to make a better living, he makes a living with no education at the FRC.

[cereality]

I wonder if Josh feels constantly insecure in DC? Not only does he not have a traditional education, he also doesn't seem to be a reader or a news watcher -- beyond what FRC is doing. Yet people in DC are VERY much into news. It's one of those places where I feel like everyone from senators to taxi drivers talk about what's happening in the world or at least in the nation. I wonder if he gets stuck in conversations about things that have nothing to do with FRC -- the economy or Ferguson or the Sony hack -- and has no clue what's going on and can't pull out the "they should've been better Christians" stuff and is left thinking "OMG what do I say.  This is my boss's boss, I don't want to look dumb but why is he talking about interest rates. How do I get out of here!?" Constantly living like you're going to be found out has got to be stressful. Sure there are lots of people in DC who get into due to family connections, but the reality is they're reasonably educated in their own right or at least aren't coming from Duggar isolation either.

[Joe Jitsu913]

I wonder if Josh feels constantly insecure in DC? Not only does he not have a traditional education, he also doesn't seem to be a reader or a news watcher -- beyond what FRC is doing. Yet people in DC are VERY much into news. It's one of those places where I feel like everyone from senators to taxi drivers talk about what's happening in the world or at least in the nation. I wonder if he gets stuck in conversations about things that have nothing to do with FRC -- the economy or Ferguson or the Sony hack -- and has no clue what's going on and can't pull out the "they should've been better Christians" stuff and is left thinking "OMG what do I say. This is my boss's boss, I don't want to look dumb but why is he talking about interest rates. How do I get out of here!?" Constantly living like you're going to be found out has got to be stressful. Sure there are lots of people in DC who get into due to family connections, but the reality is they're reasonably educated in their own right or at least aren't coming from Duggar isolation either.

I've wondered how Josh and Anna fit into mainstream DC culture. Do they understand certain puns or catchphrases? What do they converse about with other politicians and staff? Josh and Anna don't listen to mainstream music, don't have an education, don't read books and don't watch mainstream television. Surely, Josh's co-workers have conversations about these topics. I wonder how Josh feels when he can't contribute to these topics of conversation.

[Readalot]

I've wondered how Josh and Anna fit into mainstream DC culture. Do they understand certain puns or catchphrases? What do they converse about with other politicians and staff? Josh and Anna don't listen to mainstream music, don't have an education, don't read books and don't watch mainstream television. Surely, Josh's co-workers have conversations about these topics. I wonder how Josh feels when he can't contribute to these topics of conversation.

You get use to it. I was raised a JW, very sheltered. At school and my teen jobs I mostly took everything in and listened to others. I would talk about my family and safe things like experiences (beach, park visits etc). I would talk about food and classes I took/was taking and Disney movies lol. I read a lot so I loved talking to other readers (my family did not read non JW literature but I was allowed to)

[3girlsforus]

My guess is that FRC only uses him in places where his rhetoric would be appropriate. I don't know much about how FRC works but if they are active lobbyists on the Hill I doubt they bring Josh. Even if he's expanded his horizons and studies the issues, he just isn't equipped to carry on complex conversations even on topics he is familiar. It's a hard-driving game. My guess is that he only preaches to the choir. He's out there making sure those people who believe like he was raised vote for the people they want. But he's just not trained or equipped to carry on a persuasive discussion with someone who isn't already on board. Even if the ideas he is selling were more mainstream, he wouldn't be able to represent them coherently enough to be effective outside of his comfort group.

[cereality]

My guess is that FRC only uses him in places where his rhetoric would be appropriate. I don't know much about how FRC works but if they are active lobbyists on the Hill I doubt they bring Josh. Even if he's expanded his horizons and studies the issues, he just isn't equipped to carry on complex conversations even on topics he is familiar. It's a hard-driving game. My guess is that he only preaches to the choir. He's out there making sure those people who believe like he was raised vote for the people they want. But he's just not trained or equipped to carry on a persuasive discussion with someone who isn't already on board. Even if the ideas he is selling were more mainstream, he wouldn't be able to represent them coherently enough to be effective outside of his comfort group.

Totally agree -- his job consists of preaching to his own choir, which will completely sign on to any message he conveys. Obviously he doesn't have an appearance every day and rather it seems like he spends weeks here and there going from one event to the next. The rest of the time, I bet his bosses are having him prepare -- i.e. on Jan 2, you're speaking to x fundie group in y, between now and then we need you to research that group and get us a draft of your speech (which we will then fix and re-write for you).  It may be a bit of "make work" to keep him busy in times when he doesn't need to appear anywhere.

 

I don't think it's about fitting in with respect to his work bc his FRC co workers knows he's there to play to a very specific audience. I just wonder how he fits in overall. I doubt FRC people only ever discuss the FRC agenda and nothing else. I'm sure just like everyone else in DC there are lunch breaks, coffee runs, and standing around in offices talking about current events like Ferguson or the Fed's interest rate decisions or whatever -- that's where I wonder if he feels a little lost and focused on not looking dumb when he can't just say "oh -- it was God's will." It's one thing when you're in your teens or in college and you have a very limited worldview or have no idea what's happening outside of your own family and church -- I think people are very forgiving of that --  but when you're 26 yrs old and in a professional role in your organization, there are expectations that you have some clue about grown up issues like in the news.

[3girlsforus]

I don't think it's about fitting in with respect to his work bc his FRC co workers knows he's there to play to a very specific audience. I just wonder how he fits in overall. I doubt FRC people only ever discuss the FRC agenda and nothing else. I'm sure just like everyone else in DC there are lunch breaks, coffee runs, and standing around in offices talking about current events like Ferguson or the Fed's interest rate decisions or whatever -- that's where I wonder if he feels a little lost and focused on not looking dumb when he can't just say "oh -- it was God's will." It's one thing when you're in your teens or in college and you have a very limited worldview or have no idea what's happening outside of your own family and church -- I think people are very forgiving of that --  but when you're 26 yrs old and in a professional role in your organization, there are expectations that you have some clue about grown up issues like in the news.

 

Very true. Remember too, here in DC in addition to the government and political employees, we have a huge military population full of people who have lived all over the world and experienced all kinds of stuff. Colonels, Commanders, Generals and Admirals are common - educated, experienced, strong thinkers. These are not the kind of people he's used to. I'm sure Anna feels the same way. There are SAHMs here but not like in Arkansas. She probably has more in Prince George's county where I understand they live but even that was an odd choice. PG county is highly crime ridden and not considered a desirable DC suburb. 

[cereality]

How close are the Duggar siblings really? I'm sure they love each other in the way that all siblings have to, but do they ever sit down and talk and share experiences among their peer siblings? I'm sure Joseph and JD don't care too much about Josh's work or DC life, as they seem to have more of the -- I want to work with my hands and own my own small business and settle down with a wife and kids right here, what's the point of the big city grind  -- kind of mentality. But Josiah, Jed and Jer seem like they'd be interested -- just in knowing what day to day life is like in the big city or what his colleagues are like and where they came from etc. I feel like if I was Josh and was realizing that my parents were full of BS and education does not harm you (i.e. Derick seems like a good enough Christian to marry), I'd be encouraging my younger bros who were interested to "better themselves." That doesn't mean that they can automatically go to college, but I'd be encouraging them to sneak some books/newspapers and read and learn about the world on their own so that if/when they fall into a job outside of their hometown, they're not totally lost. Hell I'd probably buy them books here and there and give them some hints on how/where to hide them -- maybe even getting grandma and Amy on board in this endeavor.

 

I wonder if he even cares about them that much or if it's more of a -- whatever no one helped me, why should I make I easy on them -- kind of mentality OR if he means to help but is way to overwhelmed with Anna and the kids and the thought of having another kid every 2 yrs.

[BonnieLW]

The thing about the extremes the Duggars go to to keep their children pure and untouched by non Christians is they dont give them Free Will. The bible touches on the whole reason God created man. There were all these souls living in a state of Grace, but by living in that state you don't understand the true beauty of what you are living. There was a war in Heaven when God decided he wanted to do something to allow the souls to truly understand. The plan was man would fall and experience these various emotions and experiences. Christ offered to be the key to man to return to heaven. Some angels though wanted man to be cuddled and then return, but God wanted man to return via free will. He wanted the soul to be able to say I truly understand, but I am ready to return. If a child or even an adult lives only in that state of Grace here on earth then the whole trip is pretty much useless. Being a true Christian means that you have faced temptation and on your own you make the decision to resist. There is no moral fortitude when your accountability partner goes running to mommy and daddy at the first sign of sin or temptation.

[Jynnan tonnix]

You get use to it. I was raised a JW, very sheltered. At school and my teen jobs I mostly took everything in and listened to others. I would talk about my family and safe things like experiences (beach, park visits etc). I would talk about food and classes I took/was taking and Disney movies lol. I read a lot so I loved talking to other readers (my family did not read non JW literature but I was allowed to)

This just highlights,again, how overwhelmingly disconnected the Duggars are. Even though you were raised very sheltered, it seems you had options denied to them. OK, they do some family outings now and again (not so much to the beach because, Nike!). Food? I don't know that they eat very much worth discussing. Classes? Not unless you count the homeschool ones which don't appear to contain much in the way of mind-expanding notions. I have no idea what movies they grow up watching, but those Disney movies likely have waaaay too much music and magic in them to be deemed appropriate, and I don't see any of the kids branching off into the world of reading even if they were allowed to, which I rather doubt.

 

Plus, they really don't seem to interact with people outside their family in any meaningful way while they are young, so there are probably some people skills that they would totally lack when they leave the nest and have to navigate the secular world in whatever capacity

[floridamom]

BonnieLW:  EXACTLY my point! Yes, you have said it. I have posted here before stating my belief that they Duggar parents don't ever give their children a chance to exercise those beliefs that are shoved down their throats with any real outside life experience and decision making....Yes. An unchallenged life is somewhat a wasted life, IMO. I agree with you and you said it in a nutshell. The Duggar children prove nothing at all..how can they when they are always "guarded" with an accountability partner, never allowed to go anywhere alone, or really interact in the world? There is such a thing as "too much of a good thing", IMHO. They should read your comment themselves.

[GEML]

I imagine a lot of Josh's work is fundraising. That means working with these small subculture groups in a very intimate way. And no, no one else is writing the script because each subculture has it's own little micro-language and Josh was hired because he knows the subcultures and those languages. He DOES have an education - just not a university one. And he DOES have a real job - just a rather peculiar niche one.

[3girlsforus]

I imagine a lot of Josh's work is fundraising. That means working with these small subculture groups in a very intimate way. And no, no one else is writing the script because each subculture has it's own little micro-language and Josh was hired because he knows the subcultures and those languages. He DOES have an education - just not a university one. And he DOES have a real job - just a rather peculiar niche one.

 

You are right. I need to be more specific on my comments about his job and education. He has a job and the education it takes to do that job. What I think is the problem coming to DC has highlighted for him is that his education and both past and present work experience is so specific and specialized that he is regularly at risk for being out of a job. DC and politics are fickle for anyone but at least usually the people have college educations or law degrees or broad experience etc. Josh fits in one small niche. That's not necessarily so bad but it's possible that it comes as a surprise to Josh. I don't think the Duggars explain to their kids how limiting their education and experiences can be in the outside world. 

[Jellybeans]

Maybe he is simply having a mid-life crisis a bit early... and maybe he has thought (or is thinking) about his Duggary beliefs. Or, maybe he is thrilled to death with what he has. I somehow doubt it.

We really do not know.

[BitterApple]

I think Josh and Anna get out a lot more than they let on. When Josh was doing that 5k run, Anna and the kids were standing smack dab in front of a Victoria's Secret store and she wasn't batting an eyelash. Michael was in shorts and Anna wasn't frantically screaming "Nike!" and hustling the children away from the bras and panties displayed in the storefront window. I think they still subscribe to conservative values but have loosened up quite a bit.