Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Oldernowiser]

I doubt it. Anna has been trained from birth to accept what she is told by the "headship," meaning any guy with a Bible. She's also been trained to be sexually available at all times in the name of the Lord.

I'd be surprised if she's thought twice about the implications of these events, other than how the secular media is threatening their "ministry," meaning their cushy livelihood.

[GeeGolly]

In addition to how she was raised, I would think any internal dialogue Anna is having about Josh and the molestations, has a lot to do with knowing this family for the past 6 or so years, and how the older girls have acted around Josh during that time. And she did have SOME knowledge of what had occurred many years ago. This is factually new to us, but not so much to her.

[andromeda331]

As has been pointed out, we don't KNOW this is even the fifth victim in the police report. And I agree, the police report is only a report, not "truth." We don't KNOW anything, really.

 

This is true. We are assuming its the fifth victim, it could be someone else we don't know about.

[GEML]

In addition to how she was raised, I would think any internal dialogue Anna is having about Josh and the molestations, has a lot to do with knowing this family for the past 6 or so years, and how the older girls have acted around Josh during that time. And she did have SOME knowledge of what had occurred many years ago. This is factually new to us, but not so much to her.

I think she and Jana have talked about this a LOT. And I think she knew a great deal before she married, and I think she and Josh talk about a lot of this, then and now. To be honest, we have no reason to think that she's ever left Mac alone with Josh, do we? She may have agreed never to do so, and this might explain why the Duggar daughters are so helpful in visiting so often.

[Vaysh]

I think she and Jana have talked about this a LOT. And I think she knew a great deal before she married, and I think she and Josh talk about a lot of this, then and now. To be honest, we have no reason to think that she's ever left Mac alone with Josh, do we? She may have agreed never to do so, and this might explain why the Duggar daughters are so helpful in visiting so often.

 

 

Didn't Anna say that Josh was ever so helpful in getting up and changing diapers at night? I'm in no way saying he molested his daughter, but I have seen no evidence of Anna being reluctant to leave Kynzie alone with Josh.

 

And honestly, I just can not imagine Jana and Anna having conversations about Josh the Molester. Seriously, how do you even bring that up? 'Oh hey Jana, let's have a chat about how my husband sexually abused your baby sisters!' I think the whole family buried the nasty business deeply after the fact. Add to that, they are all so saturated in Gothard-speak that I find it hard to believe they can have an honest conversation about anything, let alone something as serious and difficult as incestual molestation.

[Sew Sumi]

In that lifestyle, is it even possible to have an honest conversation about ANYTHING? They come off as so rehearsed, even in their "genuine" interactions with one another. I seriously doubt that an unmarried GIRL (as Jana is still considered in their world) could EVER broach the subject of Josh's molestations with anyone other than her sisters. No way she gets to talk to Anna about it (assuming Anna really knew anything prior to May 19). Not seeing this scenario at all.

[BitterApple]

Anna worked in prison ministry so I don't think she's completely clueless to the dark side of human nature. I don't believe she knew the full extent of what Josh did before they married. I think the Duggars gave her a sanitized version of events but I don't think she knew that the behavior took place over several years, involved four of his sisters and included a five year old victim.

[Sew Sumi]

I doubt that Josh had to say much more than his "dark temptations" (pretty close to the real quote) and let the Kellers' imaginations run wild. For Anna, who knows what that meant? I also seriously doubt that Josh confessed this to the Kellers when he was 18. He didn't start courting Anna until he was almost 20. I get that there was a vetting period, but again, I seriously doubt Josh came fully clean to Pa Keller. Forgiven is forgiven, yo!

[kokapetl]

Anna worked in prison ministry so I don't think she's completely clueless to the dark side of human nature. I don't believe she knew the full extent of what Josh did before they married. I think the Duggars gave her a sanitized version of events but I don't think she knew that the behavior took place over several years, involved four of his sisters and included a five year old victim.

  

That Anna's family worked in prison ministry makes it plausible that Josh told her everything. Perhaps not the most likely scenario, but believable.

I think she and Jana have talked about this a LOT. And I think she knew a great deal before she married, and I think she and Josh talk about a lot of this, then and now. To be honest, we have no reason to think that she's ever left Mac alone with Josh, do we? She may have agreed never to do so, and this might explain why the Duggar daughters are so helpful in visiting so often.

I doubt Anna has left Josh home alone with Mackynzie, but that would be because she's a stay at home mother, with no known outside interests, who home schools. She's with her kids 99 percent of the time. Jana may have been sent to DC to make sure nothing inappropriate happened, but I think she was sent because Anna was so isolated. If anyone considered Josh's past behaviour a risk in any sense, moving to DC for the FRC would have been ruled out in the first place.

[GEML]

I'm not sure Josh and Anna gave Jim Bob and Michelle a choice.

[Sew Sumi]

I'm not sure Josh and Anna gave Jim Bob and Michelle a choice.

I bet there WAS some back and forth...it became Josh and Anna in DC on TV! Had there been any dissension, this wouldn't have happened. As long as there was a way for JB to cash in, I don't think he cared where Josh went. Same now for Jill, but with more challenging filming situations, given if anyone sees them with cameras, we know what TLC did. This situation is probably eating Boob up. 

 

I guess we find out tomorrow if the mission rumors are true. 

[Zahdii]

What happens tomorrow?

[SomePity1066]

Not to be off-topic here, I hope, but I have some experience with this, so I know how the molestation denial/hiding/excuse game goes.

 

My older sister was molested by a very old neighbor (think WWI veteran) under the guise of he and his wife babysitting. My sister told me, only me, and I told my mother, whom I thought would take care of it - I was 4 at the time, and told my mother - you know, the woman who rules your universe. The babysitting ended abruptly, and she was safe from him after that, but much later found out that my mother had never told my father, nor anyone else - assuming, of course, that my father would have gone next door and beaten him to death.

 

Once my father knew, long after the babysitting molester was dead and buried, and my mother was gone as well, he suffered terribly - endlessly - for not having known, not being able to save her. It's a family "secret" that endures to this day. I'm ashamed for what happened, horrified by my mother's behavior and keeping her mouth shut, and furious with my family for trying to maintain the status quo with the "nice" neighbors even after the truth was known. 

 

My sister never spoke of it again. Ever. 

 

So that will be my contribution to the discussion - even ostensibly respectable families have their secrets. And their monsters. I'm not defending Josh here - not at all - but parents and families do some supremely fucked up things in the name of "family". The fact the Josh is soooo busted, and now in hiding with his family going on about their daily lives like nothing has happened is a testament to the "live the lie" philosophy JB and Michelle have embraced. Keep your molester son secluded with his wife and children in one of your many houses and HOPE that it doesn't happen again ? REALLY, JB and Michelle ??? You're that delusional even as your own daughters exclude Joshie from their weddings and, in retrospect, they all seem to keep their distance from him... ? Forget about spelling "perpendicular", you Homefooling imbeciles - can you spell "awkward", "uncomfortable", and "skin-crawling"...???

 

They are liars, apologists, defenders, and did I mention liars ? All of the bullshit about the locks on the bedroom doors occurred long after the horse had left the stable. The fifth, unnamed girl, is the icing on the cake - and it was Josh eating the cake. 

 

It's bullshit that Anna can't get away. She has family, and enough supporters to take care of her for the rest of her life. And it's not like there's ever been a single mom with four kids, ya know. And she's due some serious TLC money, I'd think - six or seven seasons worth, and a bonus for having her toilet-birth filmed, God help her. Let her go, take the kids, and have Josh serve his sentence in the warehouse loft forever - forever - and never, ever let him around another child as long as he lives. 

 

Oh, and let's see some serious money go to the fifth girl, whomever she should be. She deserves it for her debasement at the hands of Josh and the parents who fostered his sick predilections and kept their mouths shut under the guise of "keeping it sweet". 

 

Lego-Head and Xanax-Stare have some serious questions coming their way, and there's no way to pray your way out of this, you robotic Gothard freak shows.

 

Learn and burn...

[GEML]

The thing is, there isn't one molestation story. Not how it happens, how it's handled, how it affects people long term, or how the person who does it comes to do it or goes on to do or not do it. (Contrary to Law and Order SVU, people with these tendencies often do NOT act upon them.)

We have one perpetrator and at least five young women. That's six stories, and every single one of them is true in its own way. They don't cancel each other out, even though perhaps several people would like them too. And they are also stories that have the potential to change over time, as people grow and develop and change. That needs to be respected too.

[kandinski]

Sorry lets back up here can we give an award or something to SomePity1066 ?

 

Michelle and Jim bobs new names are just perfect...."Lego-Head and Xanax-Stare"

[kassygreene]

...

 

It's bullshit that Anna can't get away. She has family, and enough supporters to take care of her for the rest of her life. And it's not like there's ever been a single mom with four kids, ya know. And she's due some serious TLC money, I'd think - six or seven seasons worth, and a bonus for having her toilet-birth filmed, God help her. Let her go, take the kids, and have Josh serve his sentence in the warehouse loft forever - forever - and never, ever let him around another child as long as he lives. 

 

...

 

Sadly, it's not bullshit that Anna can't get away, should it occur to her.  The rules of their faith do not allow divorce.  They do not allow condemning the "headship".  They do not allow the wife to be anything except baby-making husband-satisfying property.  If her family is consistent with that, they won't support her leaving Josh.

 

It wasn't that long ago when abused women who ran home to mama would routinely find that mama a) blamed them for being abused, b) told them they should just accept it, and c) would call the abuser to come get her...  To most if not all the readers here that is sick.  To anyone who willingly or unwillingly is or was part of a culture where the wife is the chattel of the husband, it was expected.

 

Just a little off-topic: I had a friend who was a decent, moderately liberal woman, who thought that any abused woman who wouldn't leave her husband and bring him up on charges was mental.  She was a decent woman, a very good friend, and had blind spots where she was completely, obliviously, devoid of empathy.  In her own way, that made her occasionally frightening to me.

[Julia]

It wasn't that long ago when abused women who ran home to mama would routinely find that mama a) blamed them for being abused, b) told them they should just accept it, and c) would call the abuser to come get her...  To most if not all the readers here that is sick.  To anyone who willingly or unwillingly is or was part of a culture where the wife is the chattel of the husband, it was expected.

 

This. The spousal abuse stories are not mine to tell, but my brother in law (the former marine sniper, no less) had his arm broken by a nun in a school where his aunt was the principal. Not because he'd done anything, but because she thought he might have done something, so she coldcocked him in the hall and he landed bad against a bank of lockers. HIs family did nothing, because she was an authority figure and he was a child, and it was OK to hit them. 

 

Don't even get me started on the family member with post-partum depression who was hospitalized and seriously considered for electroshock and possibly lobotomy by a doctor who literally only spoke to her husband.

 

The world has changed for most of us. I'm thinking for women in this community, not so much.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Julia

[Fuzzysox]

M4 is due this week, will anyone be there for the birth or did they all take off on a mission trip?

[SpottedCoachDog]

Josh and Anna have a covenant marriage. Divorce is not an option. If you Google "covenant marriage Arkansas" you will see the agreement they signed. I read about this somewhere before the fecal matter contacted the oscillating device.

Edited July 6, 2015 by SpottedCoachDog

[GEML]

I'm in the middle of something, so I can't look it up, but Josh and Anna were married in Florida. Does that change things?

[GeeGolly]

Wikipedia says "Covenant marriage is a legally distinct kind of marriage in three states (Arizona, Arkansas, and Louisiana) of the United States, in which the marrying spouses agree to obtain pre-marital counseling and accept more limited grounds for later seeking divorce."

 

"... In addition to seeking marital counseling, a spouse desiring a divorce must also prove that one of the following is true:

The other spouse has committed adultery.
The other spouse has committed a felony.
The other spouse engages in substance abuse.
The other spouse has physically or sexually abused the spouse or a child.
The spouses have been living separately for a minimum amount of time specified by law (one or two years, depending on the law of the state)."

 

So it looks as though, according to Wikipedia, Florida doesn't recognize covenant marriage, but the 3 states that do, see abuse of a child as reason to divorce.

[CofCinci]

I'm sure a decent attorney could get her out of that "covenant" marriage bullshit.

[kokapetl]

Wikipedia says "Covenant marriage is a legally distinct kind of marriage in three states (Arizona, Arkansas, and Louisiana) of the United States, in which the marrying spouses agree to obtain pre-marital counseling and accept more limited grounds for later seeking divorce."

"... In addition to seeking marital counseling, a spouse desiring a divorce must also prove that one of the following is true:

The other spouse has committed adultery.

The other spouse has committed a felony.

The other spouse engages in substance abuse.

The other spouse has physically or sexually abused the spouse or a child.

The spouses have been living separately for a minimum amount of time specified by law (one or two years, depending on the law of the state)."

So it looks as though, according to Wikipedia, Florida doesn't recognize covenant marriage, but the 3 states that do, see abuse of a child as reason to divorce.

Is separation not a legal requirement in normal no fault divorces in America? In Australia a no fault divorce requires 12 months separation, and it looks to be the same in Canada.

St Ronnie Reagan introduced no fault divorce in America, and the Duggars would be wise to respect that.

[Skittl1321]

Josh and Anna have a covenant marriage. Divorce is not an option. If you Google "covenant marriage Arkansas" you will see the agreement they signed. I read about this somewhere before the fecal matter contacted the oscillating device.

I thought it was Jill and Derrick with the covenant marriage. Still there are cases where they can get divorced.

 

The reason Josh and Anna are unlikely to ever get divorced have very little to do with the legal status of their marriage, but with the status within their church.  It is such a huge negative in their culture.  (My grandparents lived in separate houses for 30 years, but never divorced. It just wasn't done.)

[FakeJoshDuggar]

Did anyone see on one of the Duggar Facebook pages that Cornerstone Financial Services (that Josh, Jim Bob, and Michelle created in June) is accepting the donations for the Dillard's Magical Mystery Tour and that Josh gets 5% of all monies donated? So donate to Jill and Derick's "ministry" and line the pockets of Josh Duggar, Child Molester™.

[Cherrio]

Never watched Dr, Phil in my life before I developed insomnia. I leave the tv on all night and OWN runs repeats of his show.   I added this because I am no fan of Dr. Phil.

 Early this morning they showed  3 part show about a man who started molesting in his youth, went on to molest and beat his daughter and now his grandson.

 

 I kind of think these episodes appearing now are not by chance,  I think its deliberate because of the Duggar's.

[FakeJoshDuggar]

Here's the link to the Dillard's donation page.https://give.cornerstone.cc/The+Dillards

[Julia]

I think perhaps it may be Cornerstone Payment Systems, and I don't believe that the Duggars run it. It's a financial transaction processing firm which specializes in ministries and christian businesses.

[GeeGolly]

Here's the link to the Dillard's donation page.https://give.cornerstone.cc/The+Dillards

Is there a link to where JB, Michelle & Josh created an account?

[kokapetl]

Here's the link to the Dillard's donation page.https://give.cornerstone.cc/The+Dillards

I love their little logo "The Dillards Derick & Jill".

Cornerstone seems like it's a licensed system itself of 'Merchants Choice Payment Systems'. If the Duggars are receiving a cut, theirs comes after the credit card company's, the merchant system provider's, and their licensee Cornerstone's. I'm sure the last two are gouging pretty good already.

Cornerstone has links to referrer programs on its webpage, they're curiously broken though.

[What In The]

Even if Anna had all the resources known to modern mankind I think (my opinion), that mentally, she sees her identity as being Josh's helper/ wife above all. The girls/ women in her lifestyle are only taught to be wives.

[barbedwire]

Looking in on this thread to see if she had baby Mariah yet (that is my guess on the name, though Mary would be nice after grandma).

[6 MeowMeowBeenz]

If this does go to court, I'd like an attorney who is exceptional, but doesn't need to make it about him/her.

 

there are a lot of excellent attorneys who worked on the gay marriage case for SCOTUS that could be looking for work...

[Temperance]

You're that delusional even as your own daughters exclude Joshie from their weddings 

We've seen both Jill's and Jessa's wedding on tv, and Josh was invited and attended both. Jill even went so far as to make Anna a bridesmaid. I am not convinced that because neither Derrick nor Ben made Josh a groomsman at the wedding he was excluded. In most of the weddings I've been, all of the siblings of B and G were included but these were much smaller families than 19. My experience with larger families is that in some weddings not everyone is in the wedding party. Generally the groom picks his friends for groomsman and the bride picks hers for bridesmaids. I'd say more, but risk getting of topic. 

[GEML]

Given that Anna has siblings who have left, she knows she can leave and likely would have close support if she needed it. These siblings were raised in the same "brainwashed" world she was. She has known plenty of Christian people who have been divorced in Florida, AR and DC. She grew up in a church, did prison ministry, she and Josh worked at the car lot and in AR politics and then DC politics. She's never been as sheltered as the Duggar girls. If she stays with Josh, it's her own choice.

[Muffyn]

Mariah would be a great name for the new baby - a combination of Mary for the grandmother and pariah for the father. 

[CofCinci]

How did Anna do prison ministry as a minor?

[BitterApple]

I didn't read too much into Josh not being in the weddings either. The Duggar kids aren't even that close to him, let alone Derick or Ben. I think Josh would have only been in the weddings as "filler" to even out an unbalanced bridal party. If I'm not mistaken he emceed both events.

[Loves2Dance]

Is separation not a legal requirement in normal no fault divorces in America? In Australia a no fault divorce requires 12 months separation, and it looks to be the same in Canada.

St Ronnie Reagan introduced no fault divorce in America, and the Duggars would be wise to respect that.

No, though some states do have waiting periods or separation requirements, these decisions are left up to the states to decide so each state is going to be different. It's not controlled on a federal level. 

[kokapetl]

No, though some states do have waiting periods or separation requirements, these decisions are left up to the states to decide so each state is going to be different. It's not controlled on a federal level.

I do remember '$99 dollar weekend divorces' signs in medians in Florida.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Kokapetl

[Sew Sumi]

I thought it was Jill and Derrick with the covenant marriage. Still there are cases where they can get divorced.

 

The reason Josh and Anna are unlikely to ever get divorced have very little to do with the legal status of their marriage, but with the status within their church.  It is such a huge negative in their culture.  (My grandparents lived in separate houses for 30 years, but never divorced. It just wasn't done.)

Josh and Anna were married in Florida, so they don't have a government-recognized covenant marriage. They may have made a "covenant" during their full ceremony (which I don't think was ever released), but that just means they are following some arbitrary rules made up by Gothard. It's not legally binding. 

[Loves2Dance]

I do remember '$99 dollar weekend divorces' signs in medians in Florida.

Yeah, Florida is weird that way; though there is a 3 day waiting period to get a marriage license. 

[GEML]

There are forms of prison ministry you can do as a minor, including most basically writing letters. There are also forms of juvenile ministry that she could have been a part of. Very few churches take on prison ministries these days - it is the least popular and most unfounded ministry in the U.S. - but those that do will allow teens to participate if their parents permit, and I'm assuming (wry tone) Anna's did.

[OhioMom]

Is there a link to where JB, Michelle & Josh created an account?

I don't have Facebook, so I'm having trouble, myself, finding the Duggar connection to these people, along with the statement that Josh gets 5%.  Does anyone have a link?

[Julia]

Cornerstone's business model appears to be providing lower-fee transaction processing for businesses, but they have a program which allows religious organizations to receive a fraction of the transactions from any business they refer that signs up with Cornerstone. IOW, if I sign up my hairdressing business and say that X Missionary Group sent me, X Missionary Group gets a small rakeoff from every credit card transaction Cornerstone processes for me. I'm going to guess the Duggars have been working at getting them new business and assigning the funds to the Dillard organization. 

 

Not sure where Josh comes into it.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Julia

[GEML]

Given that they are named Cornerstone, I'm guessing the overall company is also religious, although it may also provide service for secular companies or products. But "cornerstone" is like the fish you see on businesses, and would be evangelicalese that this is almost certainly a Christian business.

[FakeJoshDuggar]

Is there a link to where JB, Michelle & Josh created an account?

In June Jim Bob, Michelle, and Josh created a company called Cornerstone Financial Services. In used to have screen shots of it but I must have deleted it.

[Iguessnot]

So now that we've have googled it and bolded some points, what is the controversy about a covenant marriage? 

[Julia]

Covenant marriage was a major focus of the Huckabee tenure as Governor. The upshot is supposed to be that people be willing to take their marriages seriously. IRL, the idea is that most people will review their marriage.

[Iguessnot]

I couldn't care less about Huckabee, but a serious focus on marriage is admirable to me.