Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[anony mouse]

Well I'd assume he knows he'd ruined his life, along with Anna and the kids. Upon his return to Tontitown he would have been greeted by some pissed off Duggar sisters. I hope he's realised he's figuratively fucked them as well and feels guilty

You know it. Watch your back, Josh - Jessa's coming for you and it's not going to be pretty.

[GEML]

I'll just throw out there that being an adolescent and having to stand up in front of your church and confess your sexual history and thoughts is not something you can really make a call about how "easily" someone got off unless you've done it. I will also mention that the more "golden" you are when you have to do this, the more painful and humiliating it is likely to be.

I'm not sure that in terms of outright humiliation that what Josh is experiencing is as painful as that time was he doesn't know us, or any of the people posting in social media. Huckabee and his family stood behind him. Assuming he has not done anything, this might be hard because he's let people down in a sort of big picture way, but in the way it was when it happened? This might be easier.

[Julia]

I genuinely do not think that's how he's processed this whole thing, although it definitely should be. I think Josh sees himself as he always has--God's special boy. 

 

I wonder about that. He seems awfully clingy for someone who thinks he's got God on autodial. I think who he does have on autodial is Jim Bob. It wouldn't surprise me at all if his view of himself as the rightful Duggar heir is way more confident than his view of himself as Josh.

[zenme]

I wonder about that. He seems awfully clingy for someone who thinks he's got God on autodial. I think who he does have on autodial is Jim Bob. It wouldn't surprise me at all if his view of himself as the rightful Duggar heir is way more confident than his view of himself as Josh.

 

Yes.  He seems weak or insecure. 

[Anne Elk]

Josh's upbringing was being raised to believe that any deviation from what Jim Bob said was sinning. Even thinking the non-Jim Bob-approved thought was a sin. Is it any wonder the guy has no identity of his own? 

 

I'd make a psychological guess as to why Josh seems to be not just possibly self-destructive, but actually destructive to them all ... but who knows. It's probably not that simple, but I wonder.

[zenme]

Josh and his brothers and sisters were never allowed to make decisions of their own.  They were never allowed to do anything without having another person present.  They were never trusted or given the confidence to do anything outside of the family.  I'm sure that because John D and Joe are pursuing things outside of Jimbo's comfort zone, they may fare better in the long run.  Josh never seemed as competent as John D or even Joe, and I'm sure he's feeling incompetent x10 right now.

[lulu69]

 

 

 

 

The more I think about it, the more it occurs to me that Josh really was foolish to take that position with the FRC with something like this lurking in his background. DC politics, particularly culture-war politics, is a total bloodbath, and people have been taken down by much less. After the Oprah incident the whole family knew that this was not a secret and there were plenty of people in Arkansas willing to talk about it. Were they really that naive, or just overconfident in themselves? I guess they wouldn't be the first people to believe that fame made them immune.

 

Or maybe the 'incidents' were not really a big deal in their eyes?! Afterall, it was only a few times..... to girls, who probably tempted Josh anyway.... & it happens in families within the Gothard circles ALL the time (pls know I'm being sarcastic).

 

To this day Mama June still doesn't think what she did was so horrible (bringing the man who raped her own daughter back into her home & life) & I'm betting the Duggars really don't get just how gross/disturbing Josh's actions & their responses were.

[GEML]

In the parable known as "The Prodigal Son" there are actually two brothers. One who squanders his birthright and gets a fatted calf, but nothing else upon his return. Another who does everything his father says but is never given anything special by his father in way of that recognition that he's not his brother.

Right now, it could be that Josh is both sons. He's the one who squandered his birthright, and will get, publicly, a "fatted calf" but there really isn't anything else to go home to. And he may also be the son who has spent all of his life since NOT being that son, only to have his father not recognize that he was ever capable of being anyone but that messed up boy.

Because that story only works if you have a truly loving and compassionate father waiting for you. In some interpretations, it's God himself. For Josh, it's Jim Bob. Admit it - wouldn't all of us rather deal with God? Even the scary, wrathful Ben Seewald God than Jim Bob?

I know I would.

[3 is enough]

So Sunday is Father's Day- any bets as to whether Anna posts on Instagram about the "wonderful father of her children"?

[Loves2Dance]

So Sunday is Father's Day- any bets as to whether Anna posts on Instagram about the "wonderful father of her children"?

If she's smart, she'll continue to remain silent. 

[BitterApple]

So Sunday is Father's Day- any bets as to whether Anna posts on Instagram about the "wonderful father of her children"?

Oh Lord, that would be one colossal can of worms to open. Hopefully she has enough of a brain to keep her trap shut.

[JenCarroll]

Or maybe the 'incidents' were not really a big deal in their eyes?! Afterall, it was only a few times..... to girls, who probably tempted Josh anyway.... & it happens in families within the Gothard circles ALL the time (pls know I'm being sarcastic).

 

To this day Mama June still doesn't think what she did was so horrible (bringing the man who raped her own daughter back into her home & life) & I'm betting the Duggars really don't get just how gross/disturbing Josh's actions & their responses were.

I agree actually, I really don't think they understand what the problem is.

[NikSac]

I agree actually, I really don't think they understand what the problem is.

 

I don't think so either. I know we haven't seen much public reaction, but from what we have seen through the JB/M/J&J interviews and the very little info released I get the feeling they are really confused why anyone even cares.  I see it as: "So what?  He touched his sisters, everyone does it and most do worse things to them anyway. What's the big deal?"

Edited June 20, 2015 by NikSac

[Anne Elk]

You'd think that getting kicked off the Oprah show back in 2006 would be enough to clue them in that this was serious. After that happened, they took steps to try and hide it (not bringing Josh in for an interview with the police during the investigation, and then suing the investigators). Those aren't the actions of people who think it was no big deal. That's people trying to engineer a coverup and make sure their hands are clean. 

 

I think it was plain old arrogance. They thought their TV fame and vocal Christianity made them untouchable. And they may yet be proved right. TLC hasn't officially canceled the show and their fans in the Christian community are still defending them. I think if he lays low until things calm down, even Josh will be able to come back from this eventually. Probably a secular career is out of the question, but he could make a good living as a reformed sinner telling his story.

[Sew Sumi]

I'll just throw out there that being an adolescent and having to stand up in front of your church and confess your sexual history and thoughts is not something you can really make a call about how "easily" someone got off unless you've done it. I will also mention that the more "golden" you are when you have to do this, the more painful and humiliating it is likely to be.

I'm not sure that in terms of outright humiliation that what Josh is experiencing is as painful as that time was he doesn't know us, or any of the people posting in social media. Huckabee and his family stood behind him. Assuming he has not done anything, this might be hard because he's let people down in a sort of big picture way, but in the way it was when it happened? This might be easier.

Don't forget that this church only consisted of a handful of families. Most of its congregants were little children. I see this as more a ritualistic thing than any real cleansing or humiliation. The first special was taped not long after and Josh looks every bit the Golden Child. What I gather is that neither JB/M nor Josh learned the real lessons from this. It can't be emphasized enough that had the parents gotten Josh real help at the time, no one would have ever learned any of this. 

 

Irony. Apparently not taught at the dining room table.

[NikSac]

You'd think that getting kicked off the Oprah show back in 2006 would be enough to clue them in that this was serious. After that happened, they took steps to try and hide it (not bringing Josh in for an interview with the police during the investigation, and then suing the investigators). Those aren't the actions of people who think it was no big deal. That's people trying to engineer a coverup and make sure their hands are clean.

 

True... they had to know by then that others would think it was a big deal, and somewhere along the line they realized they needed to hide it. I guess what I was getting at is I don't think that they, personally, ever thought what he did was a big deal. They did what they had to do to hide it, but I'd imagine they were upset that other people thought it was such a problem.

Edited June 20, 2015 by NikSac

[Anne Elk]

True... they had to know by then that others would think it was a big deal, and somewhere along the line they realized they needed to hide it. I guess what I was getting at is I don't think that they, personally, ever thought what he did was a big deal. They did what they had to do to hide it, but I'd imagine they were upset that other people thought it was such a problem.

 

I can see that. Once Josh had confessed and accepted Jesus and they instituted the no-hide-and-seek rules, problem solved! Then it just became more evidence of what great parents they were, because they had solved the problem! (gag)

 

But I think on some level they know this is heinous. They just think they're so special that somehow it shouldn't really apply to them, even though they admitted it happened. 

Edited June 20, 2015 by Anne Elk

[Loves2Dance]

I can see that. Once Josh had confessed and accepted Jesus and they instituted the no-hide-and-seek rules, problem solved! Then it just became more evidence of what great parents they were, because they had solved the problem! (gag)

 

But I think on some level they know this is heinous. They just think they're so special that somehow it shouldn't really apply to them, even though they admitted it happened. 

I think this is a case where they're more horrified by how the actions affect their reputation, than the actions themselves. Jim Bob was very quick to defend, "We've talk to others who have had it worse," but the idea that their image was going to be tarnished was when the true claws came out. 

[Micks Picks]

They must live in a little hotbed of molestation.  If almost everybody you know and have talked to have had this problem, and even worse, there is something really dangerous and depraved about your life and that of your friends.

[GEML]

Don't forget that this church only consisted of a handful of families. Most of its congregants were little children. I see this as more a ritualistic thing than any real cleansing or humiliation. The first special was taped not long after and Josh looks every bit the Golden Child. What I gather is that neither JB/M nor Josh learned the real lessons from this. It can't be emphasized enough that had the parents gotten Josh real help at the time, no one would have ever learned any of this.

Irony. Apparently not taught at the dining room table.

Yes, I am more than familiar with the type of Church Josh was attending. And I also know that the oldest Duggar children were taught, perhaps with discipline we'd rather not know about, how to behave in public.

I still don't know that anyone who hasn't had to get up and public list their sexual shame as an adolescent can truly say it was "easy" or he "got off lightly."

[dorcastrilling]

The thing is, local residents are not notified. One can find it out, but its not like there is any announcement to a neighborhood.

In my area they are notified. Via the PD facebook page, the community newsletter, local news reports.

[Julia]

The thing is, though, I think this was handled in a way that probably damaged Josh more than he was already damaged. It still makes my hackles go up when I hear about the psychological impact on kids from 'good families' of, essentially, being made to feel bad while they walk away from serious crimes.

Don't get me wrong, I maintain that it sucks to be Josh, but his being slapped on the wrist for however much of this he actually confessed to - we've already seen that the parents downright lie about that when it suits them - and then publicly embraced by his victims instead of going into the system his daddy helped set up for other peoples' kids is decidedly not, JMO, why it sucks to be Josh.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Julia

[GeeGolly]

In my area, the results of what happened would have been similar. DCF would have been notified, Josh would have been removed from the home, and the family would have received counseling. The goal would be to see if reunification would be appropriate. The biggest difference would have been that Josh would have been in the custody of the state and the case would have gone before a judge before he would be returned to the home. He, in all likelyhood would have returned home and would not have been criminally charged.

[Julia]

In my area, the results of what happened would have been similar. DCF would have been notified, Josh would have been removed from the home, and the family would have received counseling. The goal would be to see if reunification would be appropriate. The biggest difference would have been that Josh would have been in the custody of the state and the case would have gone before a judge before he would be returned to the home. He, in all likelyhood would have returned home and would not have been criminally charged.

I hear what you're saying, but to me the only way that's similar is the part where Josh doesn'tgo to prison. Being removed from the home, being placed in a situation where he was not a golden child and not being enabled, and having to take responsibility for his crimes before he could go back to his life sounds pretty drastically different to me.

And that's if he stayed out of the adult system. The law Jim Bob helped pass in their state had them handing out life sentences to fourteen year olds.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Julia

[kassygreene]

If I'm remembering correctly from the original FOIA document, one of the reasons JB kept Josh away from the police was that he couldn't find a lawyer who would agree to represent Josh.  Wasn't it at least two who declined to take it on?  If IIRC, then there is absolutely no rational way to maintain they were unaware of the wider world's assessment of the events, because a competent attorney interested in keeping his ability to practice would have given practical advice.  Duggars don't do practical.

[NEGirl]

In my state if the first incident was reported, Josh would have been removed from the home. CPS would do an investigation of the entire family. The family could be ordered to attend counseling The case would be referred to juvenile court to see if charges should be filed against the juvenile. The juvenile could be placed on probation and ordered to attend counseling. If the second incident was reported, and the juvenile was on probation, they could be charged with a violation of probation and possibly be given jail time. Depending on the charges, they could become a Megan's Law case and, depending on  the seriousness of the charges, the community would be notified. Such offenses are taken seriously by the court. Boob and J'Chelle knew what they were doing when they never reported the incidents to police.

*In my state, Public Defenders are provided to both juveniles and adults if they cannot afford an attorney.

Edited June 20, 2015 by NEGirl

[GeeGolly]

If they reported the first incident of 'touching a similar aged child', Josh most likely would not have been removed from the home. DCF would have been monitoring the family while all received counseling. Criminal charges, if any, would most likely have occurred due to Josh inappropriately touching the 5 year old.

I believe there are many, many ways this matter could have been handled better. However there are many, many instances that have been handled much more poorly.

The disclosure of the Duggar molestations, which I don't agree with, has brought about a lot of widespread discussion of the topic, which I believe is a good thing.

[lulu69]

If I'm remembering correctly from the original FOIA document, one of the reasons JB kept Josh away from the police was that he couldn't find a lawyer who would agree to represent Josh.  Wasn't it at least two who declined to take it on?  If IIRC, then there is absolutely no rational way to maintain they were unaware of the wider world's assessment of the events, because a competent attorney interested in keeping his ability to practice would have given practical advice.  Duggars don't do practical.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if JB couldn't find a decent attorney because he was cheap & didn't want to pay the going rate. Or maybe he tried to tell the attorney what to do bc, afterall, JB knows everything!

 

There are attorneys out there who will defend cannabilistic murders, but not one to defend a 14-16 boy molester. Hmmm.

Edited June 20, 2015 by lulu69

[doodlebug]

In my state, Public Defenders are provided to both juveniles and adults if they cannot afford an attorney.In my state, Public Defenders are provided to both juveniles and adults if they cannot afford an attorney.

That's true in all 50 states, it's a constitutional right upheld by the Supreme Court on multiple occasions.  However, it only applies to those already charged with a crime, giving them legal representation in court.  In the case of the Duggars, Jim Bob and Michelle were looking for a lawyer to prevent Josh from getting charged at all and or helping them to massage the facts of the case in such a way as to minimize the chances he'd be convicted if charged.  There is no law that says anyone gets a free lawyer (or a paid one) to help avoid being charged with a crime, especially one that everyone agrees has been committed.  I presume the lawyers didn't take the case because they either were being asked to do something unethical (it's against the law for a lawyer to knowingly lie or present false evidence, for example) or, upon evaluating the family dynamics, probably including Jim Bob and Michelle's insistence that child molestation is not a big deal and it happens all the time in most families) that he/she would be unable to work with them in presenting a viable defense.  The fact that Jim Bob is a self important twit who is often in error but never in doubt would not work in their favor either. 

Edited June 20, 2015 by doodlebug

[doodlebug]

Yeah, I can see Jim Bob refusing to allow Josh to speak with the lawyer alone or insisting that any and all decisions go through him and telling the lawyer, that , as an unmarried child, Josh was still under his headship and had no autonomy.  Any self respecting lawyer would run for the hills after that.

 

It seems to be a common conservative fundie thing, that children have absolutely no say in any aspect of their lives, even in interactions with professionals who are performing services specifically for that child.  I remember Daddy Maxwell (from another huge fundie clan) writing a blog post excoriating his daughter's orthodontist.  Why?  Because the doctor asked the 12 year old daughter her preference regarding some minor aspect of her treatment rather than asking the girl's mother who was present.  He was livid as the doctor somehow thought a 12 year old child should have an opinion on her own care when he and his wife had made it clear to her that the PARENTS were in charge of anything and everything pertaining to her and the girl wasn't allowed to have opinions independent of theirs.  I believe he felt it was a sign of the impending apocalypse and the general ruination of civilization that anyone would think s 12 year old should have any autonomy whatsoever.

[GeeGolly]

To Auntie & Suz, one of the things that Icked me out after re- watching the final episode, after the scandal broke, was Anna stating something to the effect of JB telling Josh that " the mommas take care of the North end and the daddies take care of the South".

[truthtalk2014]

What I find hypocritical is that Boob and MEchelle post pictures of Josh's children.  Why not post Josh and Anna in the photos as well?  If everything truly is alright with Josh and all that malarky - why not put the Golden Boy  in the photos with his blessings?

 

IMO, they are all hiding behind the children.  

[Joe Jitsu913]

I predict Smuggar will come out with a book (ghostwritten of course). I predict 'Fallen From Grace: A story of redemption and salvation' by Josh Duggar.

I hope no one buys it.

[Missy Vixen]

I predict Smuggar will come out with a book (ghostwritten of course). I predict 'Fallen From Grace: A story of redemption and salvation' by Josh Duggar.

I hope no one buys it.

He's probably already been approached by at least one publisher and a ghostwriter may be working on a manuscript as we speak.

[truthtalk2014]

I predict Smuggar will come out with a book (ghostwritten of course). I predict 'Fallen From Grace: A story of redemption and salvation' by Josh Duggar.

I hope no one buys it.

Hey!  Don't be so mean.  Josh has got to eat too!  Do you know the current price of donut burgers?  

 

*** SNARKISM***  

[Anne Elk]

I'll bet the plan is: 

1. A ghostwritten book from a Christian imprint, "co-authored" by Anna because she's still untainted by all this

2. A small tour preaching/witnessing/speaking to various congregations

3. His own ministry, specializing in family issues

 

Commence vomiting now.

[silverspoons]

I'll bet the plan is: 

1. A ghostwritten book from a Christian imprint, "co-authored" by Anna because she's still untainted by all this

2. A small tour preaching/witnessing/speaking to various congregations

3. His own ministry, specializing in family issues

 

Commence vomiting now.

It seems like so many of the reality tv show books ends up at the Dollar store. I run in the dollar store maybe once a month to get the few items I consider a good value and I always look at the book aisle. I have at least 40 of the reality tv stars books on my shelf from the Dollar store, everyone from Kate Gosselin to Bill Ranic to the Hiltons and yesterday I got the Tori Spelling book. On an embaressing note my middle school aged daughter was in an honors class and they up the reading to 200 books at the end of the year to get an award so she sat and read my pile of reality tv books. First she pointed out the many grammar errors and what easy reads they were. Then as she wrote what the books were about the word narcissistic came up so many times her teacher almost docked her points for using the word so much. The Duggars books have to be some of the easiest to read books ever. I guess that is what their  core audience demands?

 

I would love Josh to write a book if he was honest and open but we know that will never happen. I'm not sure if I would buy his book for $1.

Edited June 20, 2015 by silverspoons

[JoanArc]

 

I predict Smuggar will come out with a book (ghostwritten of course). I predict 'Fallen From Grace: A story of redemption and salvation' by Josh Duggar.

The Five Second Rule: Why None Of This Is A Big Deal, By Josh Duggar.

[whydoiwatch]

My Life As A Too Curious Teen -  Some Call It Incest, By Josh Duggar

Edited June 20, 2015 by whydoiwatch

[Loves2Dance]

They must live in a little hotbed of molestation.  If almost everybody you know and have talked to have had this problem, and even worse, there is something really dangerous and depraved about your life and that of your friends.

It honestly makes me question where Jill's 75% of families comment comes from. Statistically, on a broad spectrum that percentage isn't even close to accuratel; in fact, from what I was able to find the number was closer to the 2-6% ratio of sibling molestation. However, if what Jill actually meant is 75% of the families under Gothard and they know have had this issue than that is a catastrophic issue and a huge red flag for that entire ideology. 

[Anne Elk]

I don't think Jill was saying that 75% of the families she knows have a problem with brother/sister molestation. I think it's more like what the author of the Love, Joy, Feminism blog has described -- in their value system, sexual behavior of any kind is wrong and sinful unless it is within a Christian marriage. Doesn't matter if it's consensual or nonconsensual, or something that most secular people would regard as completely innocuous, such as fooling around with your fiance or masturbation or even thinking about sex at all, ever. Anything outside of marriage is wrong, period. If you look at it from that viewpoint, I think it's highly probable that three-quarters of the community have trouble abiding by their definition of "pure" until the wedding night.

 

The problem with her statement is that it makes no sense to people who have normal societal standards for acceptable sexual behavior. She intended to minimize her experience but instead she made everything sound a thousand times worse because she is so sheltered that she doesn't realize how that statement will play to people who are outraged by child molestation but not concerned about boyfriends and girlfriends French kissing. It was just an example of the completely warped world that the Duggars live in in regards to sex.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Anne Elk

[BitterApple]

I remember Daddy Maxwell (from another huge fundie clan) writing a blog post excoriating his daughter's orthodontist. Why? Because the doctor asked the 12 year old daughter her preference regarding some minor aspect of her treatment rather than asking the girl's mother who was present.

Given how facially challenged the Maxhell girls are you'd think David would have built a shrine to the guy who was improving their appearance.

I wonder if things are awkward now that Josh and Anna are back in Arkansas. I mean, how do you go back to normal once the entire world knows your dirty laundry? Jessa and Jill are back on the pimp stroll doing paid appearances, but what about the other two victims? Are they okay?

Edited June 21, 2015 by BitterApple

[Bella]

Three other victims, right? One wasn't a sister, right? The one they sweep under the rug in order to further minimize what Josh did.

[BitterApple]

Three other victims, right? One wasn't a sister, right? The one they sweep under the rug in order to further minimize what Josh did.

Oops, I forgot. I'm so focused on the Duggars I failed to remember there was one non-family victim as well. Hopefully she's doing well. I'm sure this scandal has reopened a lot of old wounds.

[Celia Rubenstein]

To Auntie & Suz, one of the things that Icked me out after re- watching the final episode, after the scandal broke, was Anna stating something to the effect of JB telling Josh that " the mommas take care of the North end and the daddies take care of the South".

I've heard that "north end/south end" thing mentioned before, but I don't understand it. Can someone please tell me what it means?

[Bella]

I've heard that "north end/south end" thing mentioned before, but I don't understand it. Can someone please tell me what it means?

 

North = above the waist. South = below the waist.

[Celia Rubenstein]

At the risk of sounding incredibly dense, I have to admit I still don't understand.

Handle what, exactly? Dressing? Bathing? First aid? I have no idea.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Celia Rubenstein

[doodlebug]

 

 

Given how facially challenged the Maxhell girls are you'd think David would have built a shrine to the guy who was improving their appearance.

 

No kidding, those kids had scarily bad teeth.  And this was the youngest one who, in addition to having teeth pointing in all directions, has eyebrows like Groucho Marx.  The orthodontist was a female, as I recall, which fed into his rant about her being an uppity female with no respect for parental control over children.

 

As for Josh, I hope the girls are giving him the cold shoulder since it's pretty clear they weren't allowed to express negative feelings towards him back in the day.  While Jim Bob and Michelle consider [snip]molestation to be a minor sin with no consequences, toppling the TV empire and derailing the gravy train probably is in an entirely separate universe; one where Josh can be blamed and castigated.

Edited June 21, 2015 by bigskygirl
Use of the word incestuous

[Happyfatchick]

"Facially challenged": a new expression to file away for future use!!!

[Sew Sumi]

So Sunday is Father's Day- any bets as to whether Anna posts on Instagram about the "wonderful father of her children"?

So far, not a peep out of Anna or Josh.