Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[GEML]

I don't think Josh can follow both Gothard and the FRC. But having come from Gothard will give the FRC access into that world.

[NausetGirl]

Hell, I've been married 24 years and my husband and I have both have decent paying jobs and *I* can't afford to shop at Whole Foods. Seriously.  And as someone who grew up less-than-privileged with blue-collar parents, things like fruit (unless it was apples or bananas) and fresh vegetables were pretty much unknown in our diet.  That's because they were expensive.  And we only had two kids in our family. So, yes, that certainly plays a part.  It took me a long time to unlearn those habits and figure out how to cook with healthy ingredients.

 

Wow, I was very fortunate then. I grew up much the same way. Oldest of six kids, with a SAHM and blue-collar Dad. Except for shoes, we only got new clothes and toys from grandparents, aunts & uncles at Christmas and birthdays.  No vacations ever.  Maybe a half-dozen little fun "day trips" [picnics to nearby parks, local parades etc] over my entire childhood.  In other words, just the basics and no extras at all.  But my Mom was an animal - in the Good way - when it came to food.  Home-cooked from scratch meals, and usually the kind of meat-and-potatoes food my Dad grew up with and loved. A minimum of 2 vegetables, or a salad and a vegetable, at nearly all meals. The only times I don't remember veggies at dinner were those nights when my Dad would take over and make us "breakfast for supper" - pancakes, ham and eggs etc. Fresh fruit was always around; also packed in our school lunches. Scratch-made desserts too [my Mom loved to bake]. Apparently my parents realized the importance of nutrition and made sacrifices elsewhere to allocate more $$ for groceries. Of course I didn't realize it then but I sure do now.  Thanks Mom & Dad.  You guys were foodies before we knew what that was!

[floridamom]

GEML: What's the  basic difference between FRC and Gothard ?

[GEML]

The Family Research Council is more what you will encounter in most conservative evangelical churches these days. It's the lobbying arm for issues that include being pro-life and anti-gay marriage and the founder, Gary Bauer, ran for president a few cycles back. He never had any chance of winning the primary, but it was a way of keeping the variety of issues relevant, and keeping his fundraising arm intact. They are particularly powerful in Iowa, one of the earliest states to chime in on the presidential election, and where the majority of Republican voters are religious conservatives.

What the FRC is not, however, is easily tied into the conservative religious subculture such as Vision Forum, Gothardites, and the like. Many of these families have similar values, but see traditional Republicans as too tied to Washington and often vote third party (Constitution Party is a favorite) or don't vote at all. They don't rally for the cause or raise money. If the FRC can bring them under their wing, that would make them more powerful at a time when young, evangelical-born and raised voters are bleeding away from the party. (Not necessarily voting Democrat, but not voting Republican.)

The game in DC is always make sure you can turn out X number of votes and raise Y amount of money. Josh gives the FRC a way into a more or less untapped voting and money block. That these people have little money is irrelevant - people with less typically donate more in both parties when their core values are on the line.

[floridamom]

Thank you, GEML; I like to learn about things in general and I don't want to make assumptions about organizations unless I know what is what..Again, thanks!

[Barb23]

I'm watching the episode where Steve, the trainer, surprises them. Josh is getting the kids out of bed & Mac is wearing a cute set pajamas WITH PANTS. So nice to see. I wonder if they were a gift from Grandma Duggar?

[JessDVD]

GEML's sum-up is pretty good. I'd add that the FRC's values are fairly mainstream across conservative America. While not everyone feels as strongly about lobbying for those things as the FRC does, their feelings on life, marriage, and religious liberty are pretty common. The Gothard/Vision Forum group is a very small subset (I think most people, unless they pay a lot of attention to the Duggars, aren't even aware that they exist) of extremism within conservative America. The extreme patriarchy, stay-at-home-daughter, extreme courtship/chaperones, own your own business so you don't have a boss, eschewing college - all that is not at all within the general conservative America, at least in my experience. I know a lot of people who probably haven't heard of the FRC but would agree with what they do, who don't by any means agree with or participate in the extreme Gothard/Vision Forum stuff.

[GEML]

And adding a third point to JessDvd's great points - there has always been an evangelical/fundamentalist split in the US. At it's most basic (and I mean basic, because those are two hot button words) evangelicals reach out with a gospel message to convert others. For decades now, groups like the FRC have relied on them. Now that some feel those numbers have peaked, some groups are reaching out to fundamentalist groups. Fundamentalist groups often agree theologically with evangelicals, but don't evangelize. They believe their living witness and the calling of the Holy Spirit will bring people to them if that is God's plan. They have always been much MUCH fewer in number and influence in American churches and culture, but they are always present and very dedicated.

People who don't know the cultures and DC make fun of Josh's job, but I assure you, it's a real job. Not just anyone can go into these subcultures and make the pitch. Josh and Anna are a good choice.

[DangerousMinds]

They believe in religious liberty - does that include ALL religions?

[bigskygirl]

Josh may to try to make his pitch, but he has not made a big dent in getting people to sign up for God's Army and to get rid of certain rights and freedoms for certain groups. Imo, the only ones who takes him seriously are the people who agree with his political/religious beliefs and some of the family's over the top fans.

[GEML]

The people watching the show aren't the ones he's trying to reach. After all, most people in those subcultures don't own or watch TVs.

[bigskygirl]

True, but TLC do not show their real political/religious beliefs on the show aka women cannot get pregnant while being raped, transgender people are child molesters, the murders of Jewish people and others during Hitler's regime is the same as abortions, etc. etc. The family is shown as a group of loving, caring people who go out and do well for others while doing things a little different from the heathen masses.

[GEML]

You are missing the point. Josh is trying to get "God's Army" as you call them, to be more mainstream, as in the beliefs and voting patterns referenced in JessDVD, not the other way around. While to many here the FRC is still a very conservative group, it is a liberalization of views for Josh and Anna, and is likely another reason JB and Michelle weren't thrilled when he announced the decision to go to DC.

[bigskygirl]

Does Josh still want to take away certain rights for certain people, does he still believe women cannot become pregnant while being raped, and does he believe abortions are the same as killing millions of innocent men, women and children during Hitler's regime.

 

Imo, I do not think JB and Michelle were not happy about Josh moving to D.C. JB was probably happy he has a son who can get out there and try to spread their beliefs to others and get more of the family name out there. He probably thinks Josh is a big time mover and shaker in D.C. The FRC does not seem to be making a big difference since anti-abortions laws are not being passed, gay/lesbians marriages are being allowed, and the majority of the candidates they campaigned for lose.

[BitterApple]

I was in the UPS store yesterday having some papers notarized and the radio was on. I was halfway listening until I heard "Family Research Council." The head of the FRC was doing a commercial for the upcoming election season and encouraging people to vote for candidates with "Biblically based values."  I feel like no matter where I go I can't escape the Duggars...

[JessDVD]

I'm not personally acquainted with Josh or anyone who works for the FRC so this is all guessing, but as GEML said, it's highly unlikely that the FRC is trying to convert conservative America to Gothardism, but their hiring of Josh may very well have been to pull in some of that demographic to build the conservative voter base. As for their candidates losing and social issues not going their way - just because that's happening, doesn't mean they don't consider what they do to be important, or even necessarily that they consider themselves to be unsuccessful. I think most rational conservative Christian types understand and possibly even accept that the USA doesn't look like it used to as far as these things go. However, if they disagree with those things (abortion, marriage, presidential candidate, whatever), they can (and some do) work on more local levels to make a difference. I don't think the abortion and marriage ones will change in America, but if the FRC builds the conservative voter base, they may start making a difference on candidates. Maybe not presidential, but local ones, which in some ways are more important (regardless of your side of the aisle) anyway.

[bigskygirl]

I do not think Josh or the family have too much pull in local issues either. Josh was hired because he is the oldest of nineteen children, and FRC seems to think the Duggar name can being in more people and money to the organization. FRC is considered a hate group, and some politicians (if they were smart, imo) would not want to be associated with them. I do chuckle when JB said Josh and the rest of the kids are political experts because they have worked on a few campaigns. Seriously...

[JessDVD]

FRC is considered a hate group by people who would never vote their way on the issues, or for the candidates they would support. I doubt that dissuades them.

 

Jim Bob being involved in politics at all... ha. I think that Josh may have gotten where he is now because of his parents, but if he's willing to put in the work, he could go reasonably decent places. The foot in the door was lucky but I doubt he'll make it long in D.C. if he's not putting in the work.

[bigskygirl]

How much work does Josh puts in? Imo, he is just for show and tell, and to spread the FRC message. I wonder how he is receive outside the FRC, Gothard movement, and people who share his political/religious beliefs.

[GEML]

You're also missing the point about how Washington works.  The dirty secret is that you don't actually have to succeed at what you do to accomplish your overall goal.  If the FRC was able to get abortion illegal and gay marriage illegal, then they would all be out of a job.  (The same goes for Planned parenthood and similar liberal causes on the other side.)  The real point is that if conservative groups paid for the child of every woman who didn't want an abortion to be raised to adulthood, and every liberal group paid to fly a woman to a state that had easy access to an abortion it would be far less expensive than what both groups pay in fundraising to political candidates year after year after year after year.  But you know what it wouldn't do?  It wouldn't pay for the jobs of political lobbyists and fundraisers.

That's the job of organizations like FRC and organizations like the NAARL.  To keep interjecting themselves into the debates of politics.  Not to actually solve the issues.  But you continually have to find people who still care about your positions, and you always have to be raising money.  You don't like Josh's politics of the FRC's.  I get it.  I don't like them either.  But there are dozens, maybe even hundreds of organizations like that in DC's, and there are quite a few I think are a lot more powerful, even regarding all of the issues that you mentioned above.  Josh is actually a pretty small fish in a pretty small bowl in a VERY big pet store.  But he's a real fish.  I think it's silly to say he's not a fish or that what he's doing isn't real or legitimate on its own terms.

[bigskygirl]

Josh and the rest of the family have their rights to their views, and I certainly have the right to agree or disagree. My problem is how the Duggars and what Josh does is portrayed on TLC. Why not air their political/religious views for the world to see esp. since they act like they are the be all, end all of big families who do things in a different way.  Some may feel what Josh does is real instead of silly, but he does not feel the rights and freedoms for certain people are legitimate or real. He brings this on himself when he decided to go on national television to portray his perfect life or tells someone else how to or how not to live his or her life.

 

I do not want to see or know how D.C. politics really work because I probably would have nightmares for the rest of my life and/or go screaming into the night.

[TessHarding2]

Hey somebody - I need to know why they are called the Smuggers.  Thank you.

[VillaVillekulla]

Because they're smug and their last name is Duggar.

[msblossom]

Obviously Anna's family has its own issues (there is the sister living off in a trailer and then going overseas with the guy claiming to be a missionary) but we don't know that the family is happy about that, to be honest.   And what does one say about Priscilla?  I'm not sure one says anything at all.  Whatever is going on there isn't only about David Waller.

GEML, I don't know anything about Anna's sisters, except a tidbit that I saw on a YouTube video recently with Anna and Priscilla reminiscing about waiting for the right man to marry (David Waller). Can you share what you know? Does it have something to do with their beliefs?

[GEML]

Others are much more up on the specifics. I know more about the religions in general that Duggars or Kellers specifically as I don't follow any of them in social media. But at one point Anna had one sister who had a child before marriage, one sister living with some extremist missionary type in a pop up trailer before going to Zambia where she was eight months pregnant (with multiple children) and one sister (Priscilla) married to the presumptive head if Gothard's HQ. Big differences.

[msblossom]

Oh wow, that's some interesting family history on Anna's side. How sad for her sister who is living with the missionary -- he must be some kind of kook.

I didn't know that about David Waller -- hmm, I wonder if that puts pressure on Anna to adhere more strictly to Gothardism, although It still appears that she and Josh have become more progressive since moving to DC.

Interesting that Jana and John David were attendants in Priscilla's wedding along with Josh and Anna (of course). I wonder how close those ties with Priscilla and DW are these days.

Thanks for sharing that, GEML.

[JessDVD]

Anna also has a brother and sister-in-law (might be the other way around but I'm pretty sure it's her brother, not sister) who are basically mainstream conservative Christian. Then one or two of the siblings after her is/are at home still. Their family is so all over, it's interesting. 

[GEML]

And while their family did do Gothard things, Anna's father did prison ministry and they were very active in a local church. I think Anna did at least some real online college work in childhood education in preparation for homeschooling her own children, which Christian/online or not is still a lot better than simply filling out the ATI workbooks.

[msblossom]

I just found this article on Anna's family on google, it is over 2 years old but it basically says what y'all posted.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithgoespop/2012/08/meet-the-kellers-the-duggars-in-laws/

[JessDVD]

Rebekah & her husband are the ones I was referring to, I was wrong about the brother/sister thing. I read a post from her husband on a blog awhile ago talking about J&A's wedding and their non-love for the cameras.

 

The Kellers are still a little whackaloon (see: Mr Keller's sermon on wine from the wedding special or whatever it was), but I agree that they seem a fair bit more level-headed and realistic about being useful in society over the Duggars.

[floridamom]

I don't mean to insult any teetotalers out there, that is not my objective. Having said that, Mr. Keller's reference to grape juice in the wedding feast at Caana(?) and Jesus performing the miracle there??...well, in those ancient times, there was no clean water supply available. The only source of beverage they had was juices, etc. which water was used to mix and it required time to ferment and kill any bacteria present to be safe to drink. The result was those people were crocked most of the time because wine resulted....The miracle that I was taught that Jesus performed at that wedding feast was that he turned the water,grape juice, etc. in to wine instantly without ANY time to ferment...Sooooo, how can grape juice be a miracle? It would have been ready immediately regardless who prepared it..Also, Jesus partook of the wine, so how is that a sin. We all were taught that He was without sin.

I believe that it isn't a sin to partake of alcoholic beverages within moderation because I don't wish to become drunk and unaware of my actions. having said that, regarding the Duggars, and the like, it goes to the "fact that they seem to have NO personal self control" so they need rigid rules to keep themselves in line in all things.Self control also requires maturity and we all know they are a bunch of kids, starting with their parents..

You know, maybe a show about the multiple Kellers would be more interesting as they have a blend of many different lifestyles and beliefs going on there! Hey, TLC drop the Duggars and move along with the many types of Kellers...That would sit well with JB, I'm sure. I'd like to know more about all of Anna's siblings and what they are up to in their varied lives...

Does anyone know what Priscilla was doing when she was SINGLE and WORKING away from home?? How was that possible for her? Also, where do she and David Wonderful live?

[Portia]

I don't mean to insult any teetotalers out there, that is not my objective. Having said that, Mr. Keller's reference to grape juice in the wedding feast at Caana(?) and Jesus performing the miracle there??...well, in those ancient times, there was no clean water supply available. The only source of beverage they had was juices, etc. which water was used to mix and it required time to ferment and kill any bacteria present to be safe to drink. The result was those people were crocked most of the time because wine resulted....The miracle that I was taught that Jesus performed at that wedding feast was that he turned the water,grape juice, etc. in to wine instantly without ANY time to ferment...Sooooo, how can grape juice be a miracle? It would have been ready immediately regardless who prepared it..Also, Jesus partook of the wine, so how is that a sin. We all were taught that He was without sin.

I believe that it isn't a sin to partake of alcoholic beverages within moderation because I don't wish to become drunk and unaware of my actions. having said that, regarding the Duggars, and the like, it goes to the "fact that they seem to have NO personal self control" so they need rigid rules to keep themselves in line in all things.Self control also requires maturity and we all know they are a bunch of kids, starting with their parents..

Much agreed. I belong to an evangelical denomination where total abstinence from alcohol is encouraged/preached, and I find that approach beyond frustrating. First of all, that approach breeds hypocrisy; I know tons of people who are social drinkers but hide it because they think it'll be perceived as ungodly. But I've always felt like the church leaders completely miss the boat by preaching knee-jerk abstinence instead of responsibility and, well, prayerfulness. Instead of twisting the scriptures to try to convince people (poorly) that Jesus didn't drink wine, why can't we have a practical conversation about what the mature, responsible, godly Christian approach to alcoholic beverages should be? I've seen a lot of young people programmed to think of alcohol as the "forbidden fruit" go absolutely bonkers with alcohol because they were never even taught the concept of responsible drinking in moderation, let alone encouraged to develop self-control. 

Edited October 17, 2014 by Portia

[Ljohnson1987]

People think that Anna may announce M4 when Dill announce Baby Dil Pickles' jender.  Hasn't Anna caught onto Birth Control yet?

[LZ1982]

While to many here the FRC is still a very conservative group, it is a liberalization of views for Josh and Anna, and is likely another reason JB and Michelle weren't thrilled when he announced the decision to go to DC.

 

I thought of that when Josh took the job as well. The FRC, to me, embodies values that are fairly mainstream within conservative, evangelical circles. Josh is probably working with single women, working mothers, etc--women who actually went to college to pursue a career, who go on dates with people they're not intending to marry, etc.

[CarolMK]

I believe when Priscilla was single and working, she was at Gothard headquarters in Chicago. That's one of the few places, if any, that single women are allowed to live and work in this belief system.

[GEML]

Yes, Priscilla was at Gothard HQ. She may or may not be one of the young women Bill Gothard sexually abused.

And while I am personally teetotal by choice, my husband is not, and the tortured explanations I grew up with about wine are plain silly. Most came about as part of the Women's Christian Temperance Union and Prohibition, and are a remnant of that Victorian excessive need to control vice no matter what.

[Quof]

Three great religious truths:  Jews don't recognize the Messiah, Protestants don't recognize the Pope, two Baptists in the liquor store don't recognize each other.

[WTFFF]

Cousin Amy posted a picture of herself drinking a glass of wine on IG once.  A bunch of people flipped out and started preaching at her.

 

After the whole "water into grape juice" statement from Pa Keller, I texted a friend of mine whose life's dream is to attend seminary.  She knows the Bible inside out and backwards, thinks critically about it, and is basically the anti-Duggar in every way, while being the most religious person I've ever met.  Whenever I have a Bible question, she always responds with lengthy, thoughtful, informative replies.  Often several, in fact, presenting various points of view to be considered. 

 

Her reply to "So is it possible the wine in the Bible was actually grape juice," however, was a long string of letters representing an onomatopoeia for hysterical laughter, followed by "No."

 

That told me pretty much all I needed to know. 

[Absolom]

Going back to the Josh and law school discussion, are we sure it wasn't Gothard's Oak Brook law school that Josh was rumored to be attending?  That one truly is online and unaccredited.  Trinity is a classroom school and accredited by the California Bar if not the ABA. 

[GEML]

I only heard that he was attending an online law school, and it was a vague rumorish type of thing at that. Since my husband is an attorney with DC bar standing, I looked up what some of the most likely alternatives would be for someone in Josh's position, and asked around in some Fundy circles. Trinity came up several times, given FRC. But I don't know anything at all, just some guesses.

[ramble]

Three great religious truths: Jews don't recognize the Messiah, Protestants don't recognize the Pope, two Baptists in the liquor store don't recognize each other.

This legitimately made me laugh out loud. Growing up in the south we called the drive-thru windows at liquor stores Baptist windows. And I grew up Baptist.

Portia I agree with what you said about the value of educated conversation regarding alcohol. Very well put. I was never taught Jesus had grape juice though, which I'm grateful for.

As far as Josh & Anna are concerned I find them more enjoyable the longer they are away from the big circus of Duggar.

[NausetGirl]

Josh and the rest of the family have their rights to their views, and I certainly have the right to agree or disagree. My problem is how the Duggars and what Josh does is portrayed on TLC. Why not air their political/religious views for the world to see esp. since they act like they are the be all, end all of big families who do things in a different way.  Some may feel what Josh does is real instead of silly, but he does not feel the rights and freedoms for certain people are legitimate or real. He brings this on himself when he decided to go on national television to portray his perfect life or tells someone else how to or how not to live his or her life.

 

Personally I think TLC does not honestly display the Duggars and their true beliefs because they have always been FULLY AWARE of how most Americans would view blanket training, sister-moms, poor homeschooling, adult children without educations or freedom, the whole patriarchal deal etc etc. I can't imagine how quickly the plug would have been pulled if the real truth was known. What they do - both the Duggars and TLC - is the very definition of politics [well, one of them]: "Activities within an organization that are aimed at improving one's status or position and are typically considered devious or divisive..." It's never been surprising to me that Boob spent time in AR politics.  He's an operator if ever I saw one.

[GEML]

I've always said politics is what they wanted to do but they couldn't cut it. They have never been about a ministry.

[ghoulina]

I agree, NausetGirl. I think what we get is "Duggar lite", which is why people on this forum are always incredulous as to how many fans they have. WE know a lot more about what goes on behind the scenes. 

[NausetGirl]

I've always said politics is what they wanted to do but they couldn't cut it. They have never been about a ministry.

 

GEML, are you saying that the TV show would never have happened if Boob had continued to win elections? Because I can totally see that happening.  He would not have wanted his family on TV if he needed to appeal to a wider base.

[glow]

GEML, are you saying that the TV show would never have happened if Boob had continued to win elections? Because I can totally see that happening.  He would not have wanted his family on TV if he needed to appeal to a wider base.

 

I recall in their latest book, Jim Bob mentioning that the loss during the elections actually worked in their favour. It brought them national awareness and certain people, from TLC, called them up with a proposal for their early one off shows. They succeed at those and eventually landed their ongoing series.

Edited October 23, 2014 by glow

[GEML]

Yes - JB is a failed politician and only came to the public eye because of his stint in politics. If he had continued to be successful, he wouldn't have done the television show. At the point he was in politics, they were much, MUCH more religious and deeply into their religious community. Politics would have been seen as his calling. The television show had actually corrupted them and alienated them somewhat from their world. You can see it I. The way they dress and most specifically in the way they name their children. The middle children have the most fundamentalist names.

[nccueagle84]

I don't think I've seen it said here yet but I've noticed in the past couple of episodes that more than once little Michael has had on SHORTS *GASP*!!!!  I like that Josh and Anna are making their own rules because IIRC that was discussed in a previous season about how the boys didn't wear shorts, plus I've never even seen any of the duggar baby boys have on any shorts.

[zenme]

I thought that it was okay for the boys to wear long shorts from time to time, but they preferred not to.

[nccueagle84]

It was an episode called "Run Duggar Run" where they ran a charity race in khakis & jeans, also in the episode where they shot the running scene for Courageous most of them wore pants but Michelle stated that some of the little boys "wore costumes" that included shorts. They make such a big deal about defrauding people with their knees showing that I was excited to see Michael wearing shorts with his cute little knees :) I'm calling it a small victory for Josh & Anna going against the grain.