Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Zella]

Didn't Deanna and Amy still hang out with the family past 2015 when the accusations were first made public? What was released then was bad enough. My understanding is that they didn't reach this level of a feud until after Mary died. Maybe they were getting along for grandma's sake, but I also think it's more likely they had shitfits over the division of her estate and that's when the gloves truly came off. 

[Cinnabon]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Not sure why that would matter. Deanna said she would have helped the sisters. She would only want to help if the molestations went beyond touching?

I also don’t know if she was aware that the molestations went on for about 4 years, starting when Josh was 12 and finally ending (we hope) when he was 16.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Zella]

Just now, Cinnabon said:

I also don’t know if she was aware that the molestations went on for about 5 years, starting when Josh was 12 and finally ending (we hope) when he was 16.

Yes there were some new details that come out thanks to Bob-ye, but even then, it was initially reported that they went on for over a year. In the grand scheme of things, that's still pretty awful. 

[hathorlive]

13 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

Psychologist here - porn addition has never been included in any version of the DSM up through the fifth edition, although the DSM-5-TR has just been released so I'm not sure about that version. 

That being said, the DSM-5 has a chapter on Substance Use and Addictive Disorders. While one subchapter focuses on addictions to alcohol and drugs, another subchapter focuses more on behavioral addictions. The most prominent behavioral addiction that is in the DSM-5 is Gambling Disorder. They have also proposed Internet Gaming Disorder (i.e., addiction to playing games on the internet) as a "condition for further study." 

Here's the thing though: Even though it's not explicitly listed in the DSM-5, which is more likely to be used in the United States, the latest edition of the International Classification of Diseases (ICD), which is more likely to be used across the world, is proposing the inclusion of "Compulsive Sexual Behavior Disorder" which would include porn addiction. 

At the end of the day, to me, addiction has a similar underlying component even if the source of the addiction may be different from person to person. It is about that need to keep reinforcing the pleasure pathways of the brain.

In the DSM-5, there are a group of sexual disorders. Some have to do with sexual dysfunction, which wouldn't apply here. Others are paraphilias which may apply here (i.e., pedophilia, voyeurism, etc.). But they don't necessarily have to involve pornography (or addiction, for that matter).

Very informative!  Thank you for sharing this information and educating me!  I'm sure Josh could benefit from seeing a psychologist. I not sure he would ever be receptive to it.  It's funny that JB and Meech think Josh is fine with them supervising him, when it's failed throughout Josh's life.

[Zella]

My biggest problem is Amy has proven herself to be a liar who snuggles up to the family when it suits her and throws them under a bus when it doesn't. I don't doubt that she and her mom are really shocked by the CSAM, but I think they're both more similar to Jim Bob than they want to admit, and I am not immediately inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt about what they knew about the molestations. Especially since there was already a lot of info that was publicly released years ago that was still pretty bad and I don't remember any grand condemnations then. They seem to be dogpiling now primarily because the winds of public opinion have told them it is safe to do so. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Zella

[GeeGolly]

They didn't start coming out against the Duggars until commenters started asking why they weren't their for the sisters, which started after the FF's arrest.

Here's Amy hugging Michelle maybe two years ago. And Amy and Deanna on the show about 5 years ago. They also attended holidays at the Duggar house.

[libgirl2]

Maybe they were more able to forgive and forget the earlier abuse and accepted that he was a changed man? Maybe the depravity of what he was looking at pushed them over the edge and enough was enough? Jesus prison didn't help this guy one bit. 

Not denying this is all of a sudden very convenient. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by libgirl2

[Zella]

1 minute ago, libgirl2 said:

Maybe they were more able to forgive and forget the earlier abuse and accepted that he was a changed man? Maybe the depravity of what he was looking at pushed them over the edge and enough was enough? Jesus prison didn't help this guy one bit. 

That could be but that is not their current narrative either. 

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, libgirl2 said:

Maybe they were more able to forgive and forget the earlier abuse and accepted that he was a changed man? Maybe the depravity of what he was looking at pushed them over the edge and enough was enough? Jesus prison didn't help this guy one bit. 

I could definitely see that. And it might be true. But they both have insisted they didn't know the molestations happened.

[libgirl2]

5 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I could definitely see that. And it might be true. But they both have insisted they didn't know the molestations happened.

Who knows what story they were given. I'm not defending them just dark family secrets can be a real mess. 

[Scarlett45]

42 minutes ago, Zella said:

Didn't Deanna and Amy still hang out with the family past 2015 when the accusations were first made public? What was released then was bad enough. My understanding is that they didn't reach this level of a feud until after Mary died. Maybe they were getting along for grandma's sake, but I also think it's more likely they had shitfits over the division of her estate and that's when the gloves truly came off. 

I agree with that too. I think its likely Deena knew something happened, but perhaps not Amy until more information came to light (the 2015 revelation). Given what I have seen in my short life, if Deena knew about Josh molesting his sisters, she may have just not wanted Amy to be alone with him, but not have stopped hanging out with him a group setting (as he was a teenager living in the family home at the time).

By the time 2015 rolled around,

 Amy was an adult and it was up to her how much interaction she wanted with her other adult cousin Josh. I always got the impression that NONE of the older siblings (and Amy) liked Josh AT ALL, and this was before I knew anything about a rumor, and when I did hear a rumor I assumed it was a consensual "got caught with another teen girl in a closet" type of thing. 

"The things you do for the mother that bore you both."- once Mary was gone, Deena may have felt free to stop hiding her disagreements with how JB handled xyz, Josh and the molestation of his sister, "Jesus Jail" etc was probably just a part of that.

7 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Who knows what story they were given. I'm not defending them just dark family secrets can be a real mess. 

I think they were given a version but not the entire truth. Josh is slime through and through, and they probably always knew that, but not the details. 

[GeeGolly]

4 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Who knows what story they were given. I'm not defending them just dark family secrets can be a real mess. 

I hear you. But they definitely have known since 2015, just like the rest of us. Yet they didn't seem to have a problem with the Duggars until a couple of years ago.

I certainly hope the degree of, or length of abuse, wouldn't make Amy and Deanna, or anyone, hold off on supporting a victim of abuse.

[libgirl2]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I agree with that too. I think its likely Deena knew something happened, but perhaps not Amy until more information came to light (the 2015 revelation). Given what I have seen in my short life, if Deena knew about Josh molesting his sisters, she may have just not wanted Amy to be alone with him, but not have stopped hanging out with him a group setting (as he was a teenager living in the family home at the time).

By the time 2015 rolled around,

 Amy was an adult and it was up to her how much interaction she wanted with her other adult cousin Josh. I always got the impression that NONE of the older siblings (and Amy) liked Josh AT ALL, and this was before I knew anything about a rumor, and when I did hear a rumor I assumed it was a consensual "got caught with another teen girl in a closet" type of thing. 

"The things you do for the mother that bore you both."- once Mary was gone, Deena may have felt free to stop hiding her disagreements with how JB handled xyz, Josh and the molestation of his sister, "Jesus Jail" etc was probably just a part of that.

I think they were given a version but not the entire truth. Josh is slime through and through, and they probably always knew that, but not the details. 

Amy is close to Jill and probably really does love her cousins very much. I don't think any of the kids really liked  Josh. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by libgirl2

[BetyBee]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

"The things you do for the mother that bore you both."- once Mary was gone, Deena may have felt free to stop hiding her disagreements with how JB handled xyz, Josh and the molestation of his sister, "Jesus Jail" etc was probably just a part of that.

I think that Deanna does know a lot more now about what Josh did/does and so do we. I agree that Grandma Mary being gone and her estate being distributed, freed Deanna up to react this strongly. Since Grandma Mary lived with, then near JB's family, and Deanna had been assured that the situation was mild touching long ago, that she feels free to react now with her true feelings. I hope that Deanna would have helped her nieces, but with all the lies being told by JB & Meech, I think it's unlikely that Deanna would have known at the time that the molestations took place, that her help was needed. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by BetyBee

[Tuxcat]

1 hour ago, SMama said:

Deanna is very upset. And to think JB spent decades talking about his sister’s mistakes while aiding and abetting a pedophile.

I am confused though. Why is she so upset now? That's an awful lot of exclamation points to use when Holt's testimony to the truth was revealed months ago? And while I sympathize with her position - I was outraged when I saw the Megan Kelly interview and when this story first broke. Didn't we hear same story that Amy and Deanna were likely told right? And yet they continued to be closely involved with the family and the show (not to mention the quest for fame).

[CandyXmasTree]

I am surprised that this statement didn't come out in the trial that every family has a child molester in their family I forgot which family member said it. That would have been a perfect get out of jail card for FF.

[SMama]

2 minutes ago, CandyXmasTree said:

I am surprised that this statement didn't come out in the trial that every family has a child molester in their family I forgot which family member said it. That would have been a perfect get out of jail card for FF.

It was Jill who regurgitated the made up statistic that it happens in two thirds of all families. 

[emmawoodhouse]

32 minutes ago, SMama said:

It was Jill who regurgitated the made up statistic that it happens in two thirds of all families. 

Right. It was said in the Megyn Kelly interview. The statistic came straight from Gothard.

[Albanyguy]

I've just plowed through all those letters and my head is spinning. Are we talking about Josh Duggar or George Bailey from "It's A Wonderful Life"?

Just a couple of random thoughts:

Is there a Fundie on earth who knows how to use an apostrophe correctly?

I know nothing about childbirth, but would a slug of Pepto Bismol really stop contractions that are coming a minute apart? At that point, isn't the baby coming, no matter what?

We're hearing a lot about that poor widow Josh has been supporting financially since her husband died, but until I see a letter from the widow herself confirming this story, I'm filing this away with Michelle's missing back muscle and all the other self-serving Duggar lies.

Most of the letter writers seem to be tacitly acknowledging Josh's guilt but dismissing it as relatively unimportant compared to his other wonderful qualities. Timothy Burgess, however, is still pushing the theory that Josh is innocent and that the CP was really downloaded by someone else. Does he really think that the judge who sat through the entire court proceedings is going to be impressed by this?

A letter from LaCount Reber, but nothing from Mrs. Reber? I'd love to hear what she has to say about Josh.

Interesting that in all the talk about how hard-working Josh is, there's lots of stories about him running the car lot, but no mention of his glory days as a Washington DC power broker, doing the Lord's work for the FRC. I'll bet they were all told to stay far away from that topic lest the judge be reminded how and why it all ended.

[JustRosie]

Could Josh be released early for good behavior? What percentage of his sentence would he have to serve before that happens? I hope he has to serve every day of whatever his sentence is. 

[Kiss my mutt]

She needs to include herself in “these people”. So indignant when it suits them. 

[beckie]

We saw Josh on the show. I don't believe what we saw was an act as I think he's incapable of being a good actor. That being said, the smug arrogant person we saw on the show is what I believe is the real him. Not this over the top great person the letter writers are making him out to be.

[Cinnabon]

56 minutes ago, Albanyguy said:

We're hearing a lot about that poor widow Josh has been supporting financially since her husband died, but until I see a letter from the widow herself confirming this story, I'm filing this away with Michelle's missing back muscle and all the other self-serving Duggar lies

I wonder if this widow reported the alleged $2000 a month to the IRS and social services (if she applied for any kind of welfare or food stamps).

[Natalie68]

On 5/12/2022 at 1:31 PM, Trillium said:

Pam Hupp has entered the chat. 

I thought I heard a last slurp from a Big Gulp

[Cinnabon]

20 minutes ago, Kiss my mutt said:

She needs to include herself in “these people”. So indignant when it suits them. 

Exactly. Imagine if a homosexual or transgender person had committed these same crimes, would they be understanding then? Back in the day, Boob advocated for the death penalty for pedophiles.

[cmr2014]

5 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I wonder if this widow reported the alleged $2000 a month to the IRS and social services (if she applied for any kind of welfare or food stamps).

Maye that's why she didn't write a letter?

If someone had helped me out to the tune of $2000/month for multiple years, I would think that I would be able to take pen in hand to write at least a short letter on his behalf . . .

[Cinnabon]

9 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

Maye that's why she didn't write a letter?

If someone had helped me out to the tune of $2000/month for multiple years, I would think that I would be able to take pen in hand to write at least a short letter on his behalf . . .

True, unless that widow recently found out the sickening details about the CP Josh watched. 

[Natalie68]

46 minutes ago, Namaste said:

Could Josh be released early for good behavior? What percentage of his sentence would he have to serve before that happens? I hope he has to serve every day of whatever his sentence is. 

I just googles this: In the federal system, prisoners who, in the judgment of the Bureau of Prisons, have exhibited "exemplary compliance with institutional disciplinary regulations" can get up to 54 days per year off their sentences.

[SMama]

Someone on FJ posted that the FF administered a website to collect funds for Mrs. Clark. If there’s any truth to that the money was not coming from the FF. It was reported the only vehicle on the FF’s name was the old RV. If he couldn’t afford a car how would he give a $2000 monthly stipend for years? 

[emmawoodhouse]

Yeah, I totally side eye the $2000/mo to Mrs. Clark. How much money can one receive before one has to report to the IRS?

[ginger90]

55 minutes ago, Namaste said:

Could Josh be released early for good behavior? What percentage of his sentence would he have to serve before that happens? I hope he has to serve every day of whatever his sentence is. 

I believe because of the crime, he would be disqualified from good conduct credits. 🤷🏼‍♀️

[emmawoodhouse]

Just now, ginger90 said:

I believe because of the crime, he would be disqualified from good conduct credits. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Oh please be true! The scumbag deserves to serve every second of his sentence. 

[Cinnabon]

Just now, emmawoodhouse said:

Oh please be true! The scumbag deserves to serve every second of his sentence. 

Hopefully at least a couple of his oldest kids will be out of the house before he gets out of prison.

[Westiepeach]

4 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Hopefully at least a couple of his oldest kids will be out of the house before he gets out of prison.

And they will be punished for not praying hard enough to get Daddy out of Federal Prison sooner.

[emmawoodhouse]

6 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Hopefully at least a couple of his oldest kids will be out of the house before he gets out of prison.

I hope baby (Ashley) Madyson is past the age that Smuggar is attracted to when he's released. I want all the remaining children at home to be safe. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by emmawoodhouse

[GeeGolly]

7 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I hope baby (Ashley) Madyson is past the age that Smuggar is attracted to when he's released. I want all the remaining children at home to be safe. 

If it goes my way Madyson will be 19 when the FF gets out.

[emmawoodhouse]

4 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

If it goes my way Madyson will be 19 when the FF gets out.

I think we're all rooting for that outcome. 

[Heathen]

31 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Yeah, I totally side eye the $2000/mo to Mrs. Clark. How much money can one receive before one has to report to the IRS?

It's $15,000 per year, but there are many loopholes -- they could claim half came from Smuggar, half from Anna, and so on, even if it came from a joint account; and thus give way more than that amount. It's a moot point because common sense says the money didn't come from Smuggar himself. If it existed at all. 

 

[emmawoodhouse]

Emily D. Baker is rolling through the memos. She's on the defense memo now. She does not like Smuggar. Like at all. She's snarking at almost every sentence by Gelfand. Can't wait until.she gets to the letters. 😂

[libgirl2]

4 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Yeah, I totally side eye the $2000/mo to Mrs. Clark. How much money can one receive before one has to report to the IRS?

Mrs Clark also known as George Glass. 

[Cinnabon]

30 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Mrs Clark also known as George Glass. 

 

[quarks]

The widow story was mentioned just enough that I'm sure the basics of it - that Josh at one point sent this widow some sort of monthly payment - is probably true.

What I'm questioning is the reason for it. Because these folks are not good at charity - that's clear from these letters, where they all find very very basic acts of what might not even be charity completely amazing - which makes me think that something else was going on here.  Not necessarily nefarious, either - it could just be Josh quietly repaying a loan, for instance.

46 minutes ago, Albanyguy said:

Most of the letter writers seem to be tacitly acknowledging Josh's guilt but dismissing it as relatively unimportant compared to his other wonderful qualities. Timothy Burgess, however, is still pushing the theory that Josh is innocent and that the CP was really downloaded by someone else. Does he really think that the judge who sat through the entire court proceedings is going to be impressed by this?

 

I don't think Burgess is trying to impress the judge as much as he's trying to change public opinion. If it also manages to impress the judge, then great, but I don't think that's the main goal here.

Timothy Burgess knows full well that the vast majority of people were not paying much if any attention to this trial, and got their information - if any - from brief tweets, headlines, or a two minute summary on the local news, very few of which mentioned that Josh Duggar and the defense were trying to cast blame on someone else.

Thus this document, written with the full understanding that, like 90% of the other documents related to this trial, it would be released as free for the public to read on Reddit and other sources.  A document that pointedly notes that another felon was working at the car lot, adds that Josh and the Duggars have gained multiple enemies thanks to their religious beliefs, and strongly tries to insinuate that this was all a frame up by Josh's religious and personal enemies. 

Of course, to make that work, you have to explain why Josh Duggar, who was already discredited and mostly out of the public view in 2019-2021, was the chosen target of the CSAM charges, and not, say, Jim Bob, Jeremy, Derrick, and Jed! - all of whom except Derrick were still on TV in 2019; all of whom were/are pretty open about their ambitions; and all of whom are widely hated. That's not something Timothy Burgess tried to address, which is one of many reasons his letter didn't convince me. But I'm not his target audience either. He wants the tabloids to read this and start putting up headlines like "Was Josh Duggar framed?" And hope that - as with the most people during the trial - most people won't read beyond that.

[emmawoodhouse]

I don't see the tabs running with the Was Smuggar Framed? narrative. Their eggs are in the "sex pest" basket. They will happily report his sentence come the 25th, the more years, the better.

[all fall down]

5 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Emily D. Baker is rolling through the memos. She's on the defense memo now. She does not like Smuggar. Like at all. She's snarking at almost every sentence by Gelfand. Can't wait until.she gets to the letters. 😂

She couldn't even get through the first sentence! And when she got to Michelle's signature, I thought she was done for. But it was nice to hear her analysis of both memos and her opinion that these overly flowery letters could backfire on them.  

[SMama]

5 minutes ago, all fall down said:

She couldn't even get through the first sentence! And when she got to Michelle's signature, I thought she was done for. But it was nice to hear her analysis of both memos and her opinion that these overly flowery letters could backfire on them.  

Did she say why they could backfire? 

[all fall down]

24 minutes ago, SMama said:

Did she say why they could backfire? 

I think it was along the lines of "Josh is so polite, Josh is so considerate, and loving and kind, etc, etc, etc" and the judge could see through that and think "he wasn't very considerate to his family when choosing to commit these crimes", and the letters were all quite over the top when seen together. 

I had to watch the video in chunks because it kept buffering on my end. The whole video was over 3 hours long even though the Josh part was only part of that. The video was loading slower that my internet wanted to play it, so i kept having to pause and wait for it to catch up, so I might be slightly mis-remembering her exact words, but that was the gist of her opinion. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by all fall down

[Churchhoney]

18 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I was thinking about the letters, and Josh's "ministry."

Nicole Burgess wrote: "He and his family are not typical of what this world has to offer -- they are better."

Josh is literally not even "better" than the majority of people in the same prison. Most people in county jail are incarcerated for relatively minor crimes like drug and alcohol related offenses and petty theft.

Josh is a felon who committed a henious crime and is awaiting transfer to Federal prison. I would expect the prison to segregate the serious felons from the general population.

I guess the Duggars' and TLC's tireless efforts to portray the TTH fam as super-"wholesome," super-godly, super-moral and super-adorable paid off, in the minds of at least the idiot neighbors. 

[Churchhoney]

18 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

That is because she at least went to HS unlike  her kids. 

And -- mega unfortunately -- all too likely some of her GRANDKIDS, too. .... Anybody think Spurge and company will ever get into an actual school? I hope they do, but the chances are looking pretty slim. Or Josh's unfortunate seven? .Or Joy's kids, maybe..

The Duggars -- spreading crap ideas and utter ignorance farther than you even thought possible. 

[GeeGolly]

Its been pretty apparent Jessa reads here. I wonder if she freely talks about the FF's conviction with the family, or if the topic is too touchy. Jessa, Derick and Amy certainly alter what they put out on SM due to public opinion and I'm curious how much feedback Jessa gives JB & M.

I've been thinking about this because I wonder if the Duggar 18 are publicly done with Josh or if we should expect statements upon his sentencing.  

[Churchhoney]

13 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Oh please be true! The scumbag deserves to serve every second of his sentence. 

It is true. There's a pretty long list of offenses that make you ineligible for federal good time credit, and any type of sex-related offenses connected to minors makes you ineligible.