Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Churchhoney]

Understood, and I don't disagree but the question was "why should he make any public apologies?". That's why. He misled the public and presented himself as morally upright. How many people did he shame while he was diddling his sisters and cheating on his wife?

 

I think this is why he should make public apologies. Unfortunately, what I've seen of the Duggars makes me wonder whether he isn't making public apologies instead because he is a tv stah and a hot celeb with a big following...and because Jim Bob and Michelle told him to get his ass into apologizing gear so they can all get their tv show back. ....

 

I hope that's wrong and that he's thinking about how he misled people about his own lack of ethical and moral standing to call everybody else out out on ethics and morals and how that's a disservice to his conservative followers and to voters generally, and so on. ... But I find it's really hard -- nearly impossible -- to actually think of stupid, smug, shallow, ignorant, selfish Josh Duggar, of the all-famewhoring-all-the-time Duggar clan, actually thinking in these terms at all. They think of their adoring celebrity-loving public and they think of [the] Jesus [of their imaginations]. But I just can't get my brain around a Duggar, and maybe even Josh in particular, thinking in terms of public and civic responsibility. I'd be surprised if thoughts and attitudes of that nature ever entered any of their heads. I hope that I'm wrong.

[Absolom]

The sex does still need to be, if only at the end, p in v though right? The Smuggars unwisely took an oath at their wedding promising to God that they would "let God choose" the size of their family, I'd imagine sex that circumvents that is verboten.

I'd say anything in Josh's wedding vows to now be a completely moot point. 

[Morgalisa]

 

Here's the link. Read it while you can -- Josh appears to have either forgotten about its existence or is stupid enough to think no one would link it with him. REALLY, REALLY NSFW! https://twitter.com/toughguyy11

 

I don't know if this is Josh's account or not, but one of his retweets is a lady called "Busty Anna."

 

Another Josh was busted today.  In addition to Snookie's husband, Josh, househusband from RHONY.

[FakeJoshDuggar]

Why does anyone need to keep a grown adult man accountable for his internet usage? Legit asking, not mocking. Do they really believe a man cannot resist looking at porn unless his wife is monitoring his internet usage?

In their warped culture, men are never responsible for their actions.

[Churchhoney]

I just don't understand how people who claim they don't watch t.v. (except for Andy Griffith and maybe the Bates show) and limit their internet usage, think they can do publicity and PR.

 

They think that a bunch of 10-year-olds wearing flip flops and carrying brand-new power tools can build a steel-framed house that'll hold 18 people and counting.

[CofCinci]

Why does anyone need to keep a grown adult man accountable for his internet usage? Legit asking, not mocking. Do they really believe a man cannot resist looking at porn unless his wife is monitoring his internet usage?

And, what's wrong with adults looking at porn anywAys?

[ariel]

Why does anyone need to keep a grown adult man accountable for his internet usage? Legit asking, not mocking. Do they really believe a man cannot resist looking at porn unless his wife is monitoring his internet usage?

Sadly, yes

[Wellfleet]

He was a spokesperson for a conservative group. He's also a public figure due to his being on a tv show and he has used both of those positions to push an agenda of intolerance in the name of his religion. People who want to stand up on the soap box publically and say others are wrong per God need to remember the whole glass houses thing. Josh has presented himself as a defender of family values. He molested a five year old and cheated on his wife as he built his career. Yes, as much as he accepted the fawning praise of the Christian right publically, he does owe the people who believed his lies about his awesome family and how he was doing it all with God's guidance an apology.

 

Well-said. Josh doesn't owe his critics anything. We ended up being the people who had his number all along, even though we didn't quite know how. But he most certainly should be apologizing to all those who loved and supported him in the past. Those are the folks let down in this whole mess.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Wellfleet

[Liz Tudor]

Wow. The photos were taken in uniform, with the nametapes still on - and visible? That is Dumb On An Epic Scale. And the last thing our military needs are nimrods this feeble. Good riddance, Perv.

Oh, honey. Not to drift farther OT, but I know from experience as a 21-year military spouse that this kind of thing happens Every. Single. Day. in every branch of the service, across all the ranks, across all ages. People just think they'll never get caught and/or will be above it if they do. Yet others just keep on doing it, because, y'know, it's never gonna happen to THEM. Just like Joshie.

[SometimesBites]

I had this discussion with someone ages ago and their way of not making it look so bad was to claim it wasn't about the birth of a girl being more dirty, it was even more super special. See women are this holy being and when they give birth, they lose a bit of that  holiness for a time. She loses less holiness giving birth to a boy than to a girl(because of her eventual super special holy child bearing powers). So it will take her longer to recharge her holiness.  I looked it up to see if there was a better way to explain it than from what I remember and this is what I came up with.

It's all Bronze Age bullshit leftover thinking.

[GeeGolly]

Absolutely. There's no black and white to these things anyway. For me, the great thing about discussing these things with a lot of very bright people -- as happens here! -- is that we all bring different lenses from our own experiences and see different shades and aspects of what may be going on. Agreeing to disagree is the only way to go. (although hard sometimes, since most of us seem to have really strong feelings and opinions about all of this!)

Churchhoney, you are awesome, special and maybe a little surreal. But, no, really, you ROCK!!

[Julia]

Everything is about Jim Bob. In the beginning, there was Jim Bob.

 

Now Jim Bob was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

[Churchhoney]

Churchhoney, you are awesome, special and maybe a little surreal. But, no, really, you ROCK!!

Thanks!    I'm sure Jillly Muffin would agree that I'm surreal! I think she probably finds us all surreal!

Edited August 25, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Missy Vixen]

You would think. Just like you would think David Rodrigues could print pamphlets in his spare time as opposed to calling it a full time ministry and going begging to support it.

 

"Full-time ministry" means working a few hours a day and getting paid more than one ever dreamed, especially those who hit the big-time. Don't kid yourselves. The neighbor up the street from us had a "prison ministry". Things were great (donations wise) until the Great Recession, during which his wife had a perma-garage sale to keep things going. He's back at it now that things have improved financially for those who donate to keep these folks in business. I'm sure they do very well financially. And he was talking about attempting to get the state to underwrite his prison ministry as well. After all, faith-based is so much more effective. Allegedly.

 

It's not possible to support a super-sized family on whatever one could bring home from the factory or a typical 9-5 job. The Gothardites are all about couching their own inability to bring in enough cash to run their household via the same jobs most people work in Christianese -- in other words, THE LORD laid it on their heart to go work for the FRC, get a reality TV show, etcetera. Going to work five days a week in an anonymous cube is such a drag. Getting a ministry is where it's at!

[ariel]

Did the prison ministry (at the time) provide health insurance for the mega family that the well paying job would have?

[jschoolgirl]

The Duggarlings should be hoping that Boob lives a long, long time. Otherwise, Josh will be their headship.

Yuck.

[Blergh]

I think it needs to be said that, with Anna's bro publically bucking the familial party line and DISSING Josh's actions as well as offering help for her and the kids OUT of this mess, there does exist the tiny possibility that she may come to an 'unexpected' realization.  Since   her parents and in-laws prioritizations   have NOT been working out for her or her kids, she may want to consider that willful ignorance is NOT bliss and bite the bullet and start anew despite the immediate flak. That's not to say she's not under TREMENDOUS pressure by [almost] all sides to 'keep sweet' but it's  less likely she will do so than before with someone she knows actually defending and advocating for HER.

 

reason for edit : someone for somehow

Edited August 25, 2015 by Blergh

[Skittl1321]

Why does anyone need to keep a grown adult man accountable for his internet usage? Legit asking, not mocking. Do they really believe a man cannot resist looking at porn unless his wife is monitoring his internet usage?

To be fair, in Josh's case, that did seem to be true.

[Julia]

Someone I know (who is an evangelical flavor of Episcopalian) was her boss' secretary at a time when her boss was still married but (in his view and not that of his wife and mother) separated. They have two daughters out of college, and they still share an e-mail account, because that's what their church recommends for the avoidance of temptation.

 

Not too far from where they live is someone else I know who (despite her and her husband having remarkably little insight into the human condition, at least if it takes place somewhere other than the section of her lower colon their head is wedged in) teaches pre-Cana, and they do the same thing. 

 

I think it's more common than people believe.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Julia

[JoanArc]

http://www.etonline.com/news/170605_josh_duggar_wife_anna_stands_by_her_husband_after_infidelity_admission_couple_hiding_out_cabin/

 

 

Most of the Duggars even missed a Sunday service at Cross Church, where they regularly attend.

Pfft.

[mythoughtis]

I actually think the 40 days after birth for a boy and 80 if a girl is for this:

 

Someone in biblical times noticed  men were more likely to get a son after a daughter if they waited longer for sex. They wouldn't have understood why, but they could have observed it.  Therefore, they made up the rule.  Similar to the rule that says 'don't eat pork because it is unclean'.

In recent times, it's been proven that sperm containing the male gene swim slower and are more fragile than sperm containing the female gene. So, waiting may build up the supply of male sperm, increasing the likelihood of a son.  if you already a son, maybe they thought your swimmers were healthy enough.

Pork has since been proven to contain bad stuff if it is not cooked enough or not kept cold.

[GeeGolly]

http://www.etonline.com/news/170605_josh_duggar_wife_anna_stands_by_her_husband_after_infidelity_admission_couple_hiding_out_cabin/

 

Pfft.

I believe only Derick & Jill and maybe Amy too attend this church. The Duggars homechurch.

[randomania]

This is from the old Testament.  Perhaps someone who is Jewish might be able to explain.  There are lots of restrictions including taking a special bath called a mikva( I probably spelled that wrong), but I think mostly orthodox and Hasidic women do this.

Disclaimer: There's an old saying, "Two Jews, three opinions." It's entirely likely that another Jew will pop in with another explanation. I'll give the outline here, and if anyone wants to really dig into it then we should probably move it to the religion thread.

 

The laws about ritual purity after menstruation and childbirth are laid out in Leviticus 12. Basically, when a woman has blood coming out of her woman-parts, she's considered niddah - a type of ritual impurity - and remains so until a set time has passed and she's able to immerse herself in a mikvah. For menstruation, that's a period of about two weeks. There are plenty of theories as to why a woman is niddah until a week after the start of her period; I've always favored the one that points out that most women ovulate about two weeks after the start of their period - which means a couple can resume gettin' it on at the best time to make babies.

 

After giving birth, a woman is niddah for 40 days (for a boy) or 80 days (for a girl). There's no reason given for the difference in times, and generations of scholars have had a collective field day coming up with explanations that fit their particular views. The purification ritual is the same whether a woman has given birth to a boy or a girl, which most scholars I've read interpret as meaning the amount of "impurity" is the same; it's just that for some reason lost to time, a woman goes to the mikvah sooner after giving birth to a boy.

 

That's an outline of one Jewish perspective. What the heck the Duggars are thinking, I can't tell you.

[magpye29]

As far as niddah goes, the separation is not limited to husband and wife.  Orthodox Jewish men do not shake a woman's hand upon meeting/greeting.  Why? Because she might be menstruating and there's no outward indication of such, so to avoid doing that, you just don't touch someone of the opposite sex to whom you are not married.  I accidentally put my hand out to shake a rabbi's hand at a synagogue function and he practically leapt backwards to avoid contact (which was actually a worse transgression because he embarrassed me terribly, and of course even as he was launching himself backward, I caught my mistake and pulled my hand back). 

 

The other thing about the mikvah is that you have to do it secretly so no one "knows" you're cleansing yourself.  So you might make a random non-committal excuse to get out of the house, but when you get home you're magically purified and can push the twin beds back together.

 

(I'm a lapsed Catholic married to a formerly wannabe Orthodox Jew, so I got pretty conversant with Orthodox Jewish customs and rituals.)

[3girlsforus]

And, what's wrong with adults looking at porn anywAys?

 

People have differing opinions on this so it only is wrong when it's wrong inside a particular marriage. In other words, Josh claimed to believe what Anna believes, that pornography is sexually immoral and adulterous. Then he snuck around and watched porn. That is being dishonest to their marriage. But in this case the even bigger deal is that he was part of a website whose members are actively searching to have an affair. That is flat out cheating which is wrong in almost every marriage.

[GeeGolly]

Disclaimer: There's an old saying, "Two Jews, three opinions." It's entirely likely that another Jew will pop in with another explanation. I'll give the outline here, and if anyone wants to really dig into it then we should probably move it to the religion thread.

 

The laws about ritual purity after menstruation and childbirth are laid out in Leviticus 12. Basically, when a woman has blood coming out of her woman-parts, she's considered niddah - a type of ritual impurity - and remains so until a set time has passed and she's able to immerse herself in a mikvah. For menstruation, that's a period of about two weeks. There are plenty of theories as to why a woman is niddah until a week after the start of her period; I've always favored the one that points out that most women ovulate about two weeks after the start of their period - which means a couple can resume gettin' it on at the best time to make babies.

 

After giving birth, a woman is niddah for 40 days (for a boy) or 80 days (for a girl). There's no reason given for the difference in times, and generations of scholars have had a collective field day coming up with explanations that fit their particular views. The purification ritual is the same whether a woman has given birth to a boy or a girl, which most scholars I've read interpret as meaning the amount of "impurity" is the same; it's just that for some reason lost to time, a woman goes to the mikvah sooner after giving birth to a boy.

 

That's an outline of one Jewish perspective. What the heck the Duggars are thinking, I can't tell you.

From what Mr. Google told me these practices hardly apply to the Duggars. It seems some of the more common explanations have to do with spending time with the child and less to do with refraining from sex.

 

But one quote I found did resemble the Duggars somewhat: 

"As well, since sons were more prized, the longer time at home for a mother with a new born girl would force the family to bond more deeply, over a more extended period of time with the new born girl."

 

But since the Duggars don't leave their home this applies in theory only.

[SongbirdHollow]

And, what's wrong with adults looking at porn anywAys?

 

There's a lot wrong with it, in my opinion, but since that's off topic for this thread I'll leave it at that. :)

[BasqueGirl]

New member here. I've been lurking for many months and decided to throw caution to the wind and join.

 

I'm stil finding my way around, and am leary of posting any links, but on ET Online they have a story stating Josh and Anna are hiding out in the mountains of Arkansas. I thought it was pretty interesting.

There's also a photo of Michelle sneakinly peeking out the front door.

[Churchhoney]

I believe only Derick & Jill and maybe Amy too attend this church. The Duggars homechurch.

 

And people think internet forums deal in irresponsible rumor. We're like a panel of New Yorker factcheckers compared to a lot of the media.

[HumblePi]

Anna's brother is calling Josh a 'pig' on social media.

 

“I have told her I would pay for her to move out here w me and pay for her kidz,” Keller writes. “I don’t think josh will see that this is a big deal and be truly broken till that happens. I beat (sic) my life on the fact that josh has not co.e (sic) to true brokenness yet.”

 

“My parents are preaching stay w him. There more interested in how there daughter getting a divorce will make then look then they are in trying to truly get josh some help and getting Anna and the kids out of there till he has gotten that help. …  I told her I would go get her and let her and her children stay w me. She said she’s staying where she’s at. But I won’t stop trying to get that pig out of our family,” says Keller, adding later that Anna and the kids are the only ones he cares about.

“I tell you who I don’t give a s*** about is that pig she calls her husband.”

 

[Satchels of gold]

I think each marriage has its own "culture" (for lack of a better word ) with it own set of rules. As long as both people agree it's all good. So if your husband looks at porn and you don't care or want to watch too....have at it. But the problem is he's in one marriage and she is in a totally different one. I do think porn should have a disclaimer that this is not what real women's bodies look like and it's not going to be this much fun. Lol

[Sew Sumi]

I'm really wondering about that Gothard mothers-and-daughters conference in Indiana that Michelle, Jinger and Jana were all scheduled to speak at. It ran from Wednesday through Saturday of last week. I can't imagine that they went. But then by the time all this came down, it may have actually been under way. They wouldn't have had much, if any, notice to cancel, I would think.

They were all there. Taking pictures! 

[Churchhoney]

They were all there. Taking pictures! 

 

Wow. Wonder if anyone caused an awkward moment or whether everybody just pretended that nothing at all had happened. That, I suppose. Wow.

[graefin]

I think there is a lot wrong with porn beyond whether marriage partners agree on it. This may be what Songbird was alluding to above:

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2014/06/10/feminist-debates-1-pornography/

[LilyoftheValley]

Hey guys, we've all been ragging on Josh pretty hard these past few days, so maybe we should all take a moment and reflect on the good work he has done in helping the cause of marriage equality.  WTG Josh!  Only your actions could have had such a big impact.  

[Missy Vixen]

Did the prison ministry (at the time) provide health insurance for the mega family that the well paying job would have?

Can you imagine what would happen if one of the mega-family daddies decided he wanted to work in an office? The HR director would lose his or her grip when calculating how much that monthly health insurance premium for a family of 12-21 might be...

[BetyBee]

I would hate for my FB posts to suddenly appear in a jillion different "news" venues (the quotes are because every news organization just cuts and pastes these days - I definitely consider it news or I wouldn't be here!) with poor grammar and swearing at strangers, I'd be mortified.  I understand his caring for his sister and I do believe he's right in his assessment of Josh as a pig who is only sorry he got caught.  But the latest on Daniel's FB post is the same story with the same mistakes over and over and over.  I hope we hear something that is actually new soon.  I especially hope that it's that Anna has left Josh!

[JennyMominFL]

Re why Jewish law has different amounts of day wait after a boy and a girl

My question is on the subject of cleanness of a mother after the birth of a male or female (Leviticus 12). The woman is unclean for seven days after a male birth, and after the birth of a female the mother is unclean for fourteen days. Why is there a difference between the birth of males and females?

Answer:

You write the word "cleanliness," when really it is "ritual purity." A woman's "impurity," or "tumah" in Hebrew, during her menstruation is a built-in component of her natural monthly cycle. Her status of "impurity" demonstrates her descent from a peak level of holiness, when she had the ability to conceive a precious new life through her union with her husband.

The status of "tumah" is not meant to imply sinfulness, degradation or inferiority. On the contrary, it emphasizes, in particular, the great level of holiness inherent in woman's G‑dly power to create and nurture a new life within her body, and the great holiness of a husband and wife's union, in general. Since a woman possesses this lofty potential, she, also bears the possibility of its void; hence her status as tameh, ritually impure. Since she experienced "the touch of death," so to speak, with the loss of potential life, as reflected by her menstruation, she enters this status of "impure."

After having given birth to a baby boy, a woman must wait a minimum of seven days before beginning her pure days; while after a baby girl is born, she must wait a minimum of fourteen days. Since the female child inherently carries a higher degree of holiness, due to her own biological, life creating capability, a greater void, or tumah, remains after her birth. Thus, the greater tumah after a baby girl's birth reflects her greater capacity for holiness (due to her creative powers) and necessitates the longer wait to remove this ritual impurity.

[magpye29]

I don't object to Daniel having posted his offers to Anna online.  If it's true that Anna is being kept incommunicado, he's probably hoping someone else will see it and pass the news along to her.

[LilyoftheValley]

I would hate for my FB posts to suddenly appear in a jillion different "news" venues (the quotes are because every news organization just cuts and pastes these days - I definitely consider it news or I wouldn't be here!) with poor grammar and swearing at strangers, I'd be mortified.  I understand his caring for his sister and I do believe he's right in his assessment of Josh as a pig who is only sorry he got caught.  But the latest on Daniel's FB post is the same story with the same mistakes over and over and over.  I hope we hear something that is actually new soon.  I especially hope that it's that Anna has left Josh!

I have noticed a homefooling trend of you're/your, their/they're/there, then/than, etc being constantly misused by those unfortunate enough to get such an "education".   The swearing I understand; he's ticked and he has every right to be.  

 

Let's face it, the Duggars may have put a little more effort into education than they really wanted to, simply because they were on television and did not want to be embarrassed.  The others, however, clearly have seen fit that their children all have at most an eighth grade education.  I graduated from a private high school that was not approved by the state or something (I cannot recall the exact issue).  To make a long story short, even though I had great SAT scores, I had to take the GED before I could go to the state university.  The GED tests at most eighth grade math and ninth grade English.  It is in no way equivalent to a high school education of twelfth grade math and twelfth grade English.  I got really, really high scores on it, so if these products of homefooling are just passing, then they really don't have much beyond a sixth grade education.   

[floridamom]

It seems that Anna is committed to her marriage; it's a shame that Josh is not.

[CofCinci]

Snooki Makes Dig at Anna Duggar, Ignores Husband's Own Ashley Madison Account

[3girlsforus]

I have noticed a homefooling trend of you're/your, their/they're/there, then/than, etc being constantly misused by those unfortunate enough to get such an "education".   The swearing I understand; he's ticked and he has every right to be.  

 

I know plenty of kids in public schools who get these wrong all the time. Grammar is barely taught in many public schools in this country.

[3girlsforus]

Snooki Makes Dig at Anna Duggar, Ignores Husband's Own Ashley Madison Account

 

So she thinks Anna should leave Josh but she isn't leaving her husband??? Having a reality show really turns you stupid doesn't it? Or maybe only stupid people want to be on a reality show.... Chicken or the egg :-)

[Joe Jitsu913]

I know educated professionals who can't use proper grammar.

[Anne Elk]

Re why Jewish law has different amounts of day wait after a boy and a girl

My question is on the subject of cleanness of a mother after the birth of a male or female (Leviticus 12). The woman is unclean for seven days after a male birth, and after the birth of a female the mother is unclean for fourteen days. Why is there a difference between the birth of males and females?

Answer:

You write the word "cleanliness," when really it is "ritual purity." A woman's "impurity," or "tumah" in Hebrew, during her menstruation is a built-in component of her natural monthly cycle. Her status of "impurity" demonstrates her descent from a peak level of holiness, when she had the ability to conceive a precious new life through her union with her husband.

The status of "tumah" is not meant to imply sinfulness, degradation or inferiority. On the contrary, it emphasizes, in particular, the great level of holiness inherent in woman's G‑dly power to create and nurture a new life within her body, and the great holiness of a husband and wife's union, in general. Since a woman possesses this lofty potential, she, also bears the possibility of its void; hence her status as tameh, ritually impure. Since she experienced "the touch of death," so to speak, with the loss of potential life, as reflected by her menstruation, she enters this status of "impure."

After having given birth to a baby boy, a woman must wait a minimum of seven days before beginning her pure days; while after a baby girl is born, she must wait a minimum of fourteen days. Since the female child inherently carries a higher degree of holiness, due to her own biological, life creating capability, a greater void, or tumah, remains after her birth. Thus, the greater tumah after a baby girl's birth reflects her greater capacity for holiness (due to her creative powers) and necessitates the longer wait to remove this ritual impurity.

 

Thanks for all the info. Is there a link?

 

But wow. Talk about a backhanded compliment. (In case it isn't obvious, I think purity rules are horrible and woman-oppressing. YMMV)

Edited August 26, 2015 by Anne Elk

[Darknight]

Anna's brother is calling Josh a 'pig' on social media.

“I have told her I would pay for her to move out here w me and pay for her kidz,” Keller writes. “I don’t think josh will see that this is a big deal and be truly broken till that happens. I beat (sic) my life on the fact that josh has not co.e (sic) to true brokenness yet.”

“My parents are preaching stay w him. There more interested in how there daughter getting a divorce will make then look then they are in trying to truly get josh some help and getting Anna and the kids out of there till he has gotten that help. … I told her I would go get her and let her and her children stay w me. She said she’s staying where she’s at. But I won’t stop trying to get that pig out of our family,” says Keller, adding later that Anna and the kids are the only ones he cares about.

“I tell you who I don’t give a s*** about is that pig she calls her husband.”

Pa Keller must be feeling like shit. All of his daughters have shitty husband's

[Darknight]

I didn't know about the 7 days after a period, that's crazy. Who plans sex out like that!? What do they do if the mood just strikes them? Do they have to stop and whip out a calendar and make sure it's been 7 days? Do they have alarms on their phone to let them know they are in the clear?

Let jesus guide them through it.

[Anne Elk]

It occurs to me that Anna is probably not going to want to move her kids in with someone who publicly refers to their father as a pig, and frankly I don't blame her for that. 

 

Not that I don't agree with him necessarily. I just think if his goal is to get Anna out of there and not just to rant on Facebook, then he might want to reconsider his tactics.

[Sew Sumi]

So, the Duggar plane flew to Chicago last night. Was it to deliver Smuggles to Gothard rehab or to send Anna into the indoctrinated bosom of her sister Priscilla? I am pretty sure it's the latter. The other sisters are all out of Gothardism in their fashions.