Jessa, Ben and Their Brood: Making a (Diaper) Mountain out of a Mold House

[lookeyloo]

He is very cute and she said it was different with her own vs. her siblings.  Let's hope that feeling lasts.

[Love2dance]

3 hours ago, Rhondinella said:

Also, shameless plug time: Anyone looking to hire a Bible Ph.D/professor/scholar, former English teacher/professor, professional proofreader/editor, or person to snark on TV (or anything else) for a living, please message me. :-)]

 

I would hire you, RHONDINELLA! I have already learned so much from you!

[Missy Vixen]

3 hours ago, Rhondinella said:

I would probably feel comfortable using any of these in a scholarly Bible course. The only thing I would say is 1) it seems like a LOT of books for one undergraduate course.  Unless he's in seminary or grad school? It looks more like the amount of reading you'd do for a graduate course;

He's doing extra credit because he's just that godly.

Of course, IMHO but he can buy all the books in the world. It doesn't mean that he understands what he reads.

I hope the perfect job presents itself sooner than later, Rhondinella. Thank you for explaining the books in question. 

[GeeGolly]

From what I understand Ben has an Associate's degree in something, so he must be doing undergrad, or more likely, IMHO, a certificate program. And the fact that the books are not straight up KJ Bible theology has got me all kinds of curious.

Could he have looked at books required for a mainstream curriculum and just bought them?

[JoanArc]

Is that bracelet Jewish? Jessa's appropriated their culture before...

[toodles]

7 hours ago, Rhondinella said:

Ok, I haven't had a good reason to put my New Testament Ph.D to work for awhile since I'm currently an out-of-work professor hoping to find something more than adjunct teaching (because adjunct teaching pays approximately enough to allow me to go live in a cave and eat berries and nuts of the forrest).  So I'll flex my brain a little here and give you my evaluation of these books and authors, some of which I am very familiar with already, and others I had to look up. For those who care. Those who don't, avert your eyes.

How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth by Fee and Stuart is a VERY common and standard textbook to introduce students to the basic concepts of biblical interpretation and how to (properly) get an appropriate message from the biblical text without reading your own meaning into it.  I've used it in class for years, as do thousands of biblical studies professors around the world. It's a legit scholarly work, generally used in lower-level undergraduate/introductory classes.

New Testament Interpretation: Essays on Principles and Methods I am not familiar with.  But it is edited by I. Howard Marshall who was one of THE premiere New Testament scholars in the world (he died last December).  Long-time professor at the University of Aberdeen, Scotland.  And the essays are written by some of the foremost NT scholars of the past 50 years, including Bruce, France and Dunn. 

The Intro to the NT book by DeSilva is also a solid scholarly introduction to NT studies commonly used in college undergraduate courses.

The three books on preaching (Robinson, Koessler and Chapell) I confess I don't know at all, as preaching is neither something I do regularly nor teach. However, I do know that the Robinson book is considered a classic of preaching education and highly regarded.

So, to conclude: the texts on the NT itself seem quite solid from a scholarly point of view. I would probably feel comfortable using any of these in a scholarly Bible course. The only thing I would say is 1) it seems like a LOT of books for one undergraduate course.  Unless he's in seminary or grad school? It looks more like the amount of reading you'd do for a graduate course; and 2) the theological traditions (and, therefore, viewpoints) of the authors of these books are all over the place: Methodist (which is Wesleyan), Presbyterian and Baptist (which is Calvinist) and some non-denominational general Evangelicals thrown in the mix. If they are wanting to present one cohesive point of view and interpretive method, then this might be confusing.  But if the goal is to have them read about several different theological approaches to the biblical text, then the mix is fine.  

What school is he going to? Because, I have to say, this list of books does not seem out of the mainstream, or like it's from a school that is trying to "brainwash" their students.

Addendum:  Ok, I just saw that he is going to Moody Bible Institute (online, I presume). I don't know if he's doing an undergraduate or graduate degree, or just a certificate program, but they have all three. In light of my cursory analysis of the texts above, I'm surprised Moody would use some of them, honestly, as they are believers in "biblical inerrancy" even to the point of saying that the Biblical texts are inerrant "in the original autographs," which is about as staunchly inerrantist as you can get. Yet many (most?) of those books listed above do NOT hold to this point of view when it comes to how the biblical texts came to be. So . . . . that's interesting.

[Also, shameless plug time: Anyone looking to hire a Bible Ph.D/professor/scholar, former English teacher/professor, professional proofreader/editor, or person to snark on TV (or anything else) for a living, please message me. :-)]

 

Great post.   I hope pinhead BIn will approach his coursework with an open mind.  

 

Whew!!  I must have lost my mind for a minute.Binhead/open mind?  What was I thinking?

Edited August 30, 2016 by toodles
Cause I gots the dumz today 2

[FakeJoshDuggar]

5 hours ago, Malvina said:

Those Duggar genes are hella strong. 

[awaken]

Where are they flying to now?

[Sew Sumi]

@Rhondinella, I just assumed that is his reading for the semester, maybe NT one class and preaching another? He IS doing Moody Online, so if one is nosy enough, one could probably suss out what courses he's taking. He got an AA (also online) from a secular community college; I have no clue how many credits he was able to transfer. You mentioned that one of the books was a lower-division text, so would you assume that he's entering Moody as either a freshman or sophomore? I guess one could also check out the certificate program to see if these texts are a fit to the required curriculum. 

I'm in academia at the CC level. Sadly, we do not offer bible studies (or studies of any other religious text, per se), nor are we in need of English professors. Enrollment is actually down this semester, and two tenured instructors are taking sabbaticals to work on their PhDs, only teaching one course apiece rather than three or four. Finally IIRC, you are nowhere near me. :(

Edited August 30, 2016 by Sew Sumi
fixed the tag...thought she might want to see the post. :D

[Sew Sumi]

Poking around the Moody site for a minute, I think Ben may be going down this path, with the preaching concentration, which would explain some of those textbooks. 

http://www.moody.edu/edu_mainWF.aspx?pageid=103921

[Rhondinella]

Quote

 

From what I understand Ben has an Associate's degree in something, so he must be doing undergrad, or more likely, IMHO, a certificate program. And the fact that the books are not straight up KJ Bible theology has got me all kinds of curious.

Could he have looked at books required for a mainstream curriculum and just bought them?

 

Yes, certainly. They are all readily available on Amazon. Anyone could easily acquire them.

18 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

I just assumed that is his reading for the semester, maybe NT one class and preaching another? He IS doing Moody Online, so if one is nosy enough, one could probably suss out what courses he's taking. He got an AA (also online) from a secular community college; I have no clue how many credits he was able to transfer. You mentioned that one of the books was a lower-division text, so would you assume that he's entering Moody as either a freshman or sophomore? I guess one could also check out the certificate program to see if these texts are a fit to the required curriculum. 

I scrolled through the textbook requirements for Moody online courses (by course) here: http://www.moody.edu/books/ and it does look like he is taking two courses. I believe I have identified the specific courses he is taking, based on the books in the photo (see screen shots below).  "Communication of Biblical Truth" is probably a fancy name for a preaching class.  "Reading the NT" appears to be a 1000 (freshman) level survey or introductory course in NT.  Probably all students in their undergrad programs are required to take it.  So, yes, it does appear from this that he is probably enrolled in one of the undergraduate programs.

I'll do some poking around online and see if I can turn up syllabi for either of these courses.

5 hours ago, Love2dance said:

I would hire you, RHONDINELLA! I have already learned so much from you!

Thanks so much for saying that! And thanks to everyone else for the good wishes and kind words. It does kind of get depressing after all those years in grad school to realize that no one in the "real world" values what you do enough to, like, pay you for it.,

 

ETA: Sew Sumi, our posts crossed in the mail! :-)

Edited August 30, 2016 by Rhondinella

[Churchhoney]

6 hours ago, Missy Vixen said:

He's doing extra credit because he's just that godly.

Of course, IMHO but he can buy all the books in the world. It doesn't mean that he understands what he reads.

I hope the perfect job presents itself sooner than later, Rhondinella. Thank you for explaining the books in question. 

I do think that Bin wants to know things, though. And also is well intentioned toward other people, on an individual level. (Dimwit that he is (and with delusions of grandeur), he doesn't do any of that right, of course. For some reason, though, I get way more vibe of openness to learning stuff, openness to the reality of other people and so on than I do from any of the Duggars who flap their gums. If he were with good influences rather than bad, I expect he might turn out kind of okay in his dunderheaded fashion. That ship has sailed, however.

[Sew Sumi]

Here is a more detailed list of courses Ben needs for BS in Ministry Leadership. The preaching concentration could definitely require the books he has in one of the four courses he's required to take. Ministry Leadership totally sounds like something Ben would do, wanting to be some kind of preacher to the downtrodden or whatever. 

It also looks like they'd probably allow him to transfer a lot of his community college credits; he had to pass basic GE courses to get the AA. Make of this list what you will. 

http://www.moody.edu/distance-learning/bs-ministry-leadership/

[momofsquid]

Bachelor of science?! in ministry leadership. *headdesk*

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, momofsquid said:

Bachelor of science?! in ministry leadership. *headdesk*

Well, a BS in it, anyway.

That could be, you know, appropriate for Bin

just sayin

Edited August 30, 2016 by Churchhoney

[WhineandCheez]

Quote

[Also, shameless plug time: Anyone looking to hire a Bible Ph.D/professor/scholar, former English teacher/professor, professional proofreader/editor, or person to snark on TV (or anything else) for a living, please message me. :-)]

Yes, yes, Rhondinella, but can you clean toilets?  How about sell used cars? Take selfies?  When are you gonna grow up and get some REAL Duggar life-skills?

[tabloidlover]

Do you have a heart for birthing an army?  Are you able to gaze adoringly at your headship at all times (especially when he is speaking)?

[Lemur]

9 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Here is a more detailed list of courses Ben needs for BS in Ministry Leadership. The preaching concentration could definitely require the books he has in one of the four courses he's required to take. Ministry Leadership totally sounds like something Ben would do, wanting to be some kind of preacher to the downtrodden or whatever. 

You mean lead his own megachurch, right?  

[Marigold]

I believe Ben's AA is in Political Science. 

Ben? What can I say that we already haven't said...But I do agree that he is the most "open" of the entire Duggar clan.  (we don't know enough about Holy Goalie)

[DangerousMinds]

15 hours ago, FakeJoshDuggar said:

Those Duggar genes are hella strong. 

I still see Damian!

[Sew Sumi]

3 hours ago, Lemur said:

You mean lead his own megachurch, right?  

But...but...but what about his BFF Flame and his foray onto a street somewhere in St. Louis followed by a TLC crew? Or how he's going to "coach" a football team of minority (but certainly Christian) kids during this season of CO? He's one of them, y'all!

[FakeJoshDuggar]

15 hours ago, awaken said:

Where are they flying to now?

I think there's a Values Voter Summit coming up. All of the usual bigots will be there.

Edited August 30, 2016 by FakeJoshDuggar

[Sew Sumi]

We do know they were at a wedding last weekend. It was a buddy of Ben's that he played football with in the high school co-op. Who knows where the bride's family is from or if the couple met at college? If the groom is a year older than Ben, he could have already graduated. I suspect this was the trip in question. Also look at the neckline of Jessa's shirt in the pic. Not Gothard approved at all.

[Sew Sumi]

The groom is in the suit.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[Marigold]

Ben is more social than all of the Duggars put together. At least he talks to various people and has the social skills to even attempt to coach a team. Up until 3 years ago, did the Duggars even speak to anyone that wasn't a Gothard? The Duggar males look like they could wet their pants out of social anxiety and awkwardness. Except Josh...let's not go there. 

It's scary that this dude is light years ahead of the Duggars...because Ben is kinda a fool! But I gotta give him so credit...at least he is trying.  He is reading some books too.  Imagine that? Ben is the intellectual leader in the bunch! 

[Aja]

I do have a tiny glimmer of gladness that Bin is exposing Jessa to black people. That may sound simplistic, but think about it--are there ANY people of color in their circle? Have we ever seen one, even a token one for the show? Probably considering the demographic they're aiming for, they didn't think it was necessary. My point is that Jessa, like all the Duggars, is SO lost in "us vs. them" and the inherent evil that courses through the veins of every single human being that doesn't believe EXACTLY what she believes and look EXACTLY the way she thinks they should look and live their lives EXACTLY the way she does. I think that, for Jessa, the only force in her life that is more powerful is that of her headship, to whom she must defer to everything from now on until the day she dies, so if Bin wants to hang with Christian rappers and so forth, she's going to have to sit on the couch with a pinched face and keep it sweet. But hopefully, with enough repeated exposure, that wall will start to come down, at least a little. It's awfully hard to dismiss as "other" someone with whom you connect and develop a friendship, even a casual one.  You know I'm a dreamerrrrrr....but my heart's of gooooooold....

[Marigold]

Aja, 

I totally agree. Change is slow but as Jessa develops some social skills and actually MAKES FRIENDS with various people, she will grow and change. Jessa will always be that Duggar girl but at least the door is cracking open and some light is poking in.  Jessa will also find out that there are various types of Christians and we are actually nice, good people! ;)  Shocking! 

I love how Ben is now the leader!  ( I say that with humor, disgust and amusement!)

[DangerousMinds]

14 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Here is a more detailed list of courses Ben needs for BS in Ministry Leadership. The preaching concentration could definitely require the books he has in one of the four courses he's required to take. Ministry Leadership totally sounds like something Ben would do, wanting to be some kind of preacher to the downtrodden or whatever. 

It also looks like they'd probably allow him to transfer a lot of his community college credits; he had to pass basic GE courses to get the AA. Make of this list what you will. 

http://www.moody.edu/distance-learning/bs-ministry-leadership/

Without life experience, how can anyone be a leader and preach to the downtrodden? IMHO, a barely educated, very sheltered 20-year old with no real life experience just can't do it.

Edited August 30, 2016 by DangerousMinds

[BitterApple]

The Duggars have socialized with both Black and Latino families on the show, however that was in a large group setting where you tend not to see as much of that one-on-one awkwardness. I don't think Jessa is racist by any means, just completely insecure, uneducated and sheltered. She couldn't even make conversation with Flame or his wife and they're Conservative Christians. It must have been a huge culture shock to attend an interracial wedding, even if the bride and groom are like-minded Kool-Aid drinkers. 

[Rabbittron]

10 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Without life experience, how can anyone be a leader and preach to the downtrodden? IMHO, a barely educated, very sheltered 20-year old with no real life experience just can't do it.

He is the most worldly person in the world because he married into the number 1 worldly family in the world  the Grifters.

[Aja]

I think Jessa would definitely bristle big-time at the suggestion that she is racist. I don't think she consciously is either. But she is a separatist, and she lets fear control her life and be the basis of all of her choices, and that extends to people, unfortunately. I'm just hoping that Bin's lack of wariness surrounding black people specifically (just because that's the example we've been given by the show) will erode some of that brainwashed-since-birth aversion to "others" that creates obvious anxiety in her and, by extension, perhaps it will inspire her to re-think her view of her fellow human beings with whom she shares this Earth, including but not limited to gays. (Because everything is all about me, not Jessa.)

Edited August 30, 2016 by Aja

[Marigold]

I think Jessa is uncomfortable with everyone that is not Gothard.  That's a lot of people!  

[Marigold]

40 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Without life experience, how can anyone be a leader and preach to the downtrodden? IMHO, a barely educated, very sheltered 20-year old with no real life experience just can't do it.

I can explain that for ya!!!  Ben is out there preaching the Gospel to everyone.  The Gospel is available and life changing for everyone, whether rich, poor, white, black, substance abuser, gang member  etc. Ben is not doing anything in his own power. He takes the Gospel and just goes out and shares, hoping that the person will accept Jesus. 

While it is good if a missionary or preacher is well rounded, it isn't necessary.  What is necessary is just going out there and doing it. God will work in that person's heart...Ben is simply the messenger. 

So Ben will go out there and preach to whoever will listen and be open to what he is saying.  if they shut him down, he will simply move to the next person. 

That is why they don't put much value on educational degrees.  Just read the Bible and share the Gospel. Sit and read the Bible with people and God's word will transform their heart.  Just believe and be saved. Teach people. They site the original 12 disciples who were chosen to preach and teach with no formal rabbinical training. 

Their view of missionaries and preachers is very simplistic.  Just preach the Gospel. 

I hope that explained a bit about Ben and why he thinks he can go out there without a degree or formal training. I'm an ex IFB and that's how they view things ;) 

[Aja]

Marigold, I'm so glad we have an ex-IFB member on these boards! Your insight is always so interesting and revealing.

[Marigold]

Thanks, Aja.  I'm always afraid of a theological argument! 

 I come here to de-stress. Take a little Duggarville crazy vacation!  Hahaha

[Absolom]

It sadly isn't restricted to IFB.  That's a standard very conservative evangelical approach. 

[Marigold]

Very much so, Absolom. 

[Aja]

11 minutes ago, Marigold said:

Thanks, Aja.  I'm always afraid of a theological argument! 

 I come here to de-stress. Take a little Duggarville crazy vacation!  Hahaha

You won't get one from me! It seems to me that your spirituality is something that means a lot to you, and you've taken a lot of time to think about what it means to you and how it applies to your life. The kidults could learn SO MUCH from you. Most of us would love the opportunity to speak one-on-one with a chaperone/headship-free Jessa, but were this such a magical universe where that wish might actually be granted, I'd nominate you or Churchhoney to do it. You understand her in a way that I don't. I'd just end up sputtering and flailing my arms around like Olive Oil. I'd REALLY try not to, but I'm pretty sure that's what would end up happening. :)

Edited August 30, 2016 by Aja

[birkenstock]

31 minutes ago, Marigold said:

I can explain that for ya!!!  Ben is out there preaching the Gospel to everyone.  The Gospel is available and life changing for everyone, whether rich, poor, white, black, substance abuser, gang member  etc. Ben is not doing anything in his own power. He takes the Gospel and just goes out and shares, hoping that the person will accept Jesus. 

While it is good if a missionary or preacher is well rounded, it isn't necessary.  What is necessary is just going out there and doing it. God will work in that person's heart...Ben is simply the messenger. 

So Ben will go out there and preach to whoever will listen and be open to what he is saying.  if they shut him down, he will simply move to the next person. 

That is why they don't put much value on educational degrees.  Just read the Bible and share the Gospel. Sit and read the Bible with people and God's word will transform their heart.  Just believe and be saved. Teach people. They site the original 12 disciples who were chosen to preach and teach with no formal rabbinical training. 

Their view of missionaries and preachers is very simplistic.  Just preach the Gospel. 

I hope that explained a bit about Ben and why he thinks he can go out there without a degree or formal training. I'm an ex IFB and that's how they view things ;) 

Thanks for the explanation, Marigold!  

Is Ben taking online classes an FU internetz situation then?  Could he be employed as a pastor without a degree? I can see him doing this as a means of being more employable and independent from Jim Bob. If he wasn't on TV, do you think he would view it necessary to go after his seminary degree? 

Edited August 30, 2016 by birkenstock

[Marigold]

i think ben actually realizes that a degree is a good thing and it will give him more "street cred" in the real world and with some other Christians.  Ben might actually value education more than we think.  I say this cautiously but MAYBE ben is actually using this TLC money to further his own education and is actually planning for the future!  (where is the shock emoji when you need it???) 

Yes, Ben can absolutely work in some circles without any formal education in theology.  I don't think any of my IFB ministers had any degrees at all and to be honest, I never cared. I am master's level in my own field.  I value education. My older kids are in college.  But a minister with a degree is not on my radar.  i totally understand why it bothers people but i rarely even think about it. 

 

Edit to add:

Jeremy is running some church and his degree is not in theology or seminary.  Maybe Ben is hoping for a hook-up?

Edited August 30, 2016 by Marigold

[Defrauder]

Jessa's beating Jill in the baby race, rounding the stretch here comes Jinger ..... it's  like a horse race.

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Without life experience, how can anyone be a leader and preach to the downtrodden? IMHO, a barely educated, very sheltered 20-year old with no real life experience just can't do it.

And yet, when we look at these cults/churches/whatever, it seems pretty clear that guys like that represent maybe even the majority of those who do do it. And even though late-teen-early-20-something guys are pretty universally at a stage where they think they know everything, most who are outside of these groups aren't all that likely to go around making public speeches about their great insights to people sitting in rows of chairs. Most would feel silly or shy of public speaking or something. Makes me wonder what it is about these groups that gives the guys such a -- to me -- different attitude about it. The fact that they see themselves as biblical patriarchs to be or something? Just the overall holier-than-thou philosophy they're imbued with? Or what? 

Can't imagine how excruciating it must be to sit through all this preaching-by-the-completely-ignorant.

[Malvina]

[BitterApple]

That kid looks like the love child of Josh and Boob.

[JoanArc]

Wait till Jessa finds out about weave. But seriously, it's good she's being exposed to the 'other'. That said, I know many people who are perfectly loving and giving to people of other races who are the biggest bigots in private, when the 'right' people are listening. I see her going more down that path than the love-everyone route. I'd like to be wrong.

[louannems]

I think Spurgeon is adorable but I hate that Jessa's always got him stuffed into too tight of pants.  He would be so much more comfy in one piece play sets, or loose overalls.

[Marigold]

2 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

And yet, when we look at these cults/churches/whatever, it seems pretty clear that guys like that represent maybe even the majority of those who do do it. And even though late-teen-early-20-something guys are pretty universally at a stage where they think they know everything, most who are outside of these groups aren't all that likely to go around making public speeches about their great insights to people sitting in rows of chairs. Most would feel silly or shy of public speaking or something. Makes me wonder what it is about these groups that gives the guys such a -- to me -- different attitude about it. The fact that they see themselves as biblical patriarchs to be or something? Just the overall holier-than-thou philosophy they're imbued with? Or what? 

Can't imagine how excruciating it must be to sit through all this preaching-by-the-completely-ignorant.

I really think at this age the young men believe they are answering the call in the Bible of "Go forth and preach the Gospel".  You know how young adults are always filled with such passion and want to change the world? These young men, like Ben, really do believe they can change the world through Jesus.  

Young adults are often involved in something they feel passionate about. Animal rights, politics, organic foods, human rights, helping people, religion etc.  I'm sure some of them are cocky jerks but I suspect a lot of them really do want to make a difference and do amazing things even if I don't agree with them. I do understand a passionate 20 year old!  To me, Ben fits that description to a T.   

 

(I think Derick is a dreamer and has no direction and Jeremy is a bit old for this passionate college student stuff.  Ben? i think he fits right in that category. Even his constant Jesus t shirts are like every other college student proclaiming their passion!) 

Edited August 30, 2016 by Marigold

[Churchhoney]

34 minutes ago, Marigold said:

I really think at this age the young men believe they are answering the call in the Bible of "Go forth and preach the Gospel".  You know how young adults are always filled with such passion and want to change the world? These young men, like Ben, really do believe they can change the world through Jesus.  

Young adults are often involved in something they feel passionate about. Animal rights, politics, organic foods, human rights, helping people, religion etc.  I'm sure some of them are cocky jerks but I suspect a lot of them really do want to make a difference and do amazing things even if I don't agree with them. I do understand a passionate 20 year old!  To me, Ben fits that description to a T.   

 

(I think Derick is a dreamer aGnd has no direction and Jeremy is a bit old for this passionate college student stuff.  Ben? i think he fits right in that category. Even his constant Jesus t shirts are like every other college student proclaiming their passion!) 

Thanks. Very good points.

[Fuzzysox]

In the last couple of months, I have become completely obsessed with Officer Tommy Norman:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Norman

THIS is who Bin should hook up with and start a mnistry. Officer Norman does community policing....I know it's not a ministry but Bin could minister to the kids that Officer Norman reaches out to. It would give Bin a good amount of kids for his "football ministry" while not needing to be out of the State of AR.

This just popped up on my FB feed. Bin will fit right in. Officer Norman's brother is a bible belting minister.

http://www.littlerockfamily.com/post/112696/north-little-rock-police-officer-tommy-norman-has-a-big-family-basically-everyone

 

**look up Officer Norman on his Facebook page he has a lot of videos

Edited September 1, 2016 by Fuzzysox

[Malvina]