S06.E10: The Winds of Winter

[WatchrTina]

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I didn't mind Qyburn being given Varys's little birds scene. 

Me neither but I do have to wonder why it took a flock of little bird to kill one elderly man but Qyburn dispatched only little bird to lead Lancel into the tunnels below the Sept to deliver one, strategic, disabling but not fatal blow to a young, fit soldier hopped up on religious zeal.  Oh well (hand-waving it away) it was worth it to watch Lancel crawl impotently toward his doom.

Ooooh "doom."  Now I'm starting to wonder if the "Doom" of Valyria really was a volcano or just more crazy people playing with weapons of mass destruction.

Edited June 27, 2016 by WatchrTina

[screamin]

9 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I don't think the majority of people would have fought against the Tyrells and Lannisters once they saw they saw what they were up against (I think more people would have fled), but that wasn't the only opportunity Margaery had to cut ties with the High Sparrow. She other options. By siding with him over her family she was only showing that she had no longterm plan to get rid of the High Sparrow and felt that if you can't beat 'em join 'em. By joining them she was putting a royal stamp of approval to the High Sparrow gaining power where more and more people who break the rules of the Faith are going to be treated the way that she and Loras were. 

I think the Tyrrell armies would likely have won in a knock-down drag-out fight with the Sparrows and their supporters But Loras was their hostage in the Sept, which is the Sparrows' defensible strong point and the last place that would have fallen in a battle. Probably Margaery feared that if the Sparrows saw they were losing, it was most likely one of them would kill Loras before they fell. I'd guess Margaery decided the safest way was the long game, get Loras back through whatever humiliation the Sparrow had planned, then repudiate whatever promises Loras had sworn. Would've worked, but for hellfire...

[nodorothyparker]

Other than Olenna Tyrell telling the Sand Snakes to shut up because the grownups were talking, which please and thank you, the Dorne scenes still do nothing for me and if I'm supposed to be rooting for them as a part of Team Dany they fail.  Ellaria and the Terrible Trio murdered an innocent girl for having the wrong last name and then murdered their rightful rulers because ... reasons.  Something about wanting vengeance for a man who got himself killed showboating and pulling an Inigo Montoya instead of finishing the job he expressly stated he came to do.  Yes, Olenna just lost her entire family which is indeed terrible, but she murdered the son of her family's murderer as a purely preventative measure and pinned it on another member of that family which led to even more death.  Since then she's spent much of her time goading that murderer, even possibly planting the seed with "you can't kill everyone."  They're not exactly the poor innocent wronged victims here.

I would imagine after watching the great sept and its surrounding areas and all the religious nutcases who were supposed to be their champions blown sky high, most of who's left in Kings Landing is probably too terrified to do much other than say "yes, my Queen."  What's left of the other houses are pretty much decimated or off dealing with their own problems and winter is setting in.  They have no idea another option is about to land.

[WatchrTina]

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Loras (who was the series' only surviving gay character that I'm aware of)

Yara Greyjoy would like a word.

House Greyjoy:  "We're up for anything."

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if I'm supposed to be rooting for them [the sand snakes] as a part of Team Dany they fail.  Ellaria and the Terrible Trio murdered an innocent girl for having the wrong last name and then murdered their rightful rulers because ... reasons.

Well, "the enemy of my enemy" and all that.  War makes strange bed-fellows.  Let's think for a moment about that Dorthaki hoard that Dany is about to loose on Westeros.  I didn't hear her giving those guys the "no reaping, no raping" speech.  No, she told them to "pull down the stone houses" of her enemies.  I'd enjoy seeing a Dothraki hoard ride against the zombi army of the White Walkers but who are we kidding -- they'll all have died of exposure before getting north of the Neck.  The Dothraki don't do snow.  More likely they'll be running around Dorne, raping and pillaging so those evil Sand Snakes will get their karmic pay-back in the end.

Edited June 28, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Alapaki]

1 minute ago, WatchrTina said:

Me neither but I do have to wonder why it took a flock of little bird to kill one elderly man but Qyburn dispatched only little bird to lead Lancel into the tunnels below the Sept to deliver one, strategic, disabling but not fatal blow to a young, fit soldier hopped up on religious zeal.  Oh well (hand-waving it away) it was worth it to watch Lancel crawl impotently toward his doom.

Ooooh "doom."  Now I'm starting to wonder if the "Doom" of Valyria really was a volcano or just more crazy people playing with weapons of mass destruction.

Two questions, one of which probably just shows I wasn't watching closely enough:

1) Where was Pycelle killed?  Both he and Lancel were attacked in underground tunnels, but Pycelle was under the Red Keep and not the Great Sept, right?

2) What was the point of having Lancel scurry down the rabbit hole?  His torch wasn't necessary to ignite the wildfire, since they already had the candles burning down in the puddles of wildfire.  Was helplessly seeing it happen supposed to make his death worse?  Was the kid there just to ensure that Lancel stayed at the Sept until the explosion?  

To your questions, Watchrtina, I was assuming that the viciousness of the attack on Pycelle was a reflection of Qyburn's animosity towards him (and possibly the Citadel as a whole).  I mean, they could've simply allowed Pycelle to be at the Sept for the Trial and die there.  So I'm guessing that Cersei said to Qyburn "he's yours".

As far as Lancel, I suppose a single, well-placed dagger pierce could sever the spinal cord in such a way as to render one's legs useless.  But I think that would've taken a lot of practice.  I think having the kid clip Lancel's achilles tendons would've been more bad-ass.  But given how I feel about the finale overall, that's really a nit-pick on my part.

[jeansheridan]

I liked it mostly.  I hated the Arya bit.  I don't like her Mission Impossible face pull off.  I don't think she should have that magic after declaring her name is Arya Stark.  I hope there are consequences for using unearned magic.  

 

I think Jon earned their respect.  He won ugly but he won.  He gathered what troops he had and did his best.  He fought in the trenches.  He captured the monster with his bare hands.  And he is merciful and generous.  After Bolton he must seem dreamy.  He looks enough like Robb and sounds like Ned.  If Lyanna isn't crushing on him, give her a year or two.

Tommen' s suicide was the only surprise in that sequence.  I wanted Maergery to live so badly.  

 

There are no men left for Dany to marry now other than Robin and her nephew.  They may need to add some new men next season.

 

Was anyone worried Tyrion was going to make a move on Dany?  I had a horrifying thought they set up the scene so he could lean in but phew!  

 

Also, THANKS uncle Benjen for leaving Meera alone to drag Bran' s body without a sled! She barely hauled him to the tree.  Meera' s life sucks.

[Rhodri]

So D&D are cleaning house of all the George RR Martin characters they thought were extraneous.  I can sympathise but I wonder how Martin feels about this?

Then there is the future of the 7 kingdoms...

Unless Jaime and Cersei make more babies (unlikely), the Lannisters are coming to an end.

House Tyrell is gone.

Only bastards left in Dorne.  I know they have more progressive views there but the Sand Snakes will eventually all turn on each other before they produce viable heirs.

House Frey still has lots of heirs but they are so beaten down by Walder, I doubt they will last whatever upstart decides to come take over.

If Dany wins the Iron Throne, she had better get to baby making quick as she is the last one (Jon may be Targaryan but not interested in rebuilding that house I bet).

House Bolton gone (good riddance)!

After Euron is justly murdered, House Greyjoy will have a lesbian for a queen and her only remaining brother is a Eunuch.  She had better take one for the team or that house is done too.

House Baratheon gone.  Long before anyone knew it was gone but official gone now.

 In the end, House Stark wins just by having all those living heirs. Although I'm not sure how into having babies Bran, Sansa, and Arya are but at least they are alive and supporting their house.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Rhodri

[Gertrude]

7 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

2) What was the point of having Lancel scurry down the rabbit hole?  His torch wasn't necessary to ignite the wildfire, since they already had the candles burning down in the puddles of wildfire.  Was helplessly seeing it happen supposed to make his death worse?  Was the kid there just to ensure that Lancel stayed at the Sept until the explosion?

While it doesn't make a lot of logical sense, I liked that it gave us eyes on what was about to happen. It helped set the mood and amp up the tension, which worked very well in this sequence, I thought. This is the type of lapse of logic I don't mind in my entertainment.

[Maximum Taco]

Well I'm definitely in the minority here, cause I didn't really like it that much. Lots of problems for me.

MINOR PROBLEMS

Varys - Mentioned by other people, but it's sloppy when it feels like he teleports back to Meereen from Dorne. You need to show that some time has passed or it's laughable.

Dorne - So we killed Doran to give his plot to Ellaria? Yeah fantastic idea, I buy vengeance crazed Ellaria being smart enough to organize in less than a year what it took Doran years to organize. Oh wait no I don't. Seriously just kill all the Dornish and be done with it. You ruined it show, and there is no saving it.

Cersei - Way too cold on Tommen's death. I get the fact that she's probably very numb, but it's her last child. Rationally it makes sense that she'd prepare herself for his death after Joff and Myrcella died, but from what we know about Cersei I just didn't buy it.

Sam - I know Sam is GRRM's author insert into the story, but does that mean he has to take George's role as travelogue? Seriously why the fuck does any of Sam's story matter? Is he just here to show us new places and then move on to the next new place? Cause that's what it seems like. Well newsflash: Nobody cares!

The King in The North - I'm not so upset that Jon was made King, it seems like it'll happen in the books due to Robb's will. But I still want him to be a little reluctant to steal his siblings birthrights, as far as he knows Bran and Arya are alive and Sansa is sitting right fucking next to him. I mean put up a little resistance and let Sansa talk you into it, she certainly doesn't WANT to be Queen, and she certainly looked happy that they had foisted the title and responsibility on Jon, but I think Jon still needs to be reluctant to take the crown.

All in all, I'm fine with all of those, just me picking some nits. But...

MAJOR PROBLEMS

Loras - I honestly didn't think it was possible to ruin Loras Tyrell more then they already did. In the books he's still a brave knight who dedicated himself to his true love, and is unrepentant of his love, and is a kick-ass swordsman. Now he's a dead guy who's last act was to cast aside that love and hate himself for his sexual orientation. I hate you show. I hate you so much.

Qyburn and Pycelle - This death didn't make any goddamn sense. When Varys killed Kevan (and Pycelle) in the books it made perfect sense, they were fixing the kingdom and making it harder for Cersei to fuck everything up, and Varys didn't like that. But that wasn't going on here, Pycelle was just as much Cersei's toady as Qyburn. With Kevan dead Pycelle would've gone back to doing everything Cersei said without question. Now if Qyburn wants to kill Pycelle just because he hates him, that's fine, but then his speech about bearing him no ill will and ushering in the new makes no sense. Dumb. Just kill him, don't try to shoehorn in badass things from the books you like with different characters, it doesn't work.

Arya - Where did Arya get another face? I can't imagine "Jaqen" just let her take some after she spurned him and the Faceless Men. Did she kill some poor girl to get it? Also we've been told that to "someone" the faces are as good as poison, and she's clearly not "no one," she's never used the faces safely, how can she be doing so now? 

I hated those problems. But to show I'm not all complain...

GOOD STUFF

Music - Just gorgeous. The best job the music staff has done so far. Every scene was perfectly scored, bravo.

Oldtown - I know I complained about it up there, but my complaint was that we didn't advance the story at all. Oldtown and the Citadel itself looked beautiful. I just wish something had happened there, we've been waiting all season for Sam to get to Oldtown.  

Tower of Joy - Perfectly executed, no problems here.

Sansa and Jon - I love every scene with Sansa and Jon, they are just delightful. Even if they aren't destined for romance, Sophie Turner and Kit Harington have great chemistry. It was wonderful that they had a moment to acknowledge their Stark ties away from everyone else.

Sansa and Littlefinger - Also this, wonderfully played. I almost felt like they were going to kiss until Sansa shut that down. Sophie Turner has chemistry with everybody it seems.

Cersei - Other then her coldness at Tommen's death, Lena Headey did wonderfully this episode. Throne room scene gave me chills. King's Landing is in trouble.

Jaime - I actually like the path Jaime seems to be taking, madly in love with Cersei until he discovers he's madly in love with a madwoman.

MEH

Dany - I've never really liked Dany though, so maybe that's just personal preference. I am glad that she's finally on her way to Westeros I guess.

[WatchrTina]

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There are no men left for Dany to marry now other than Robin and her nephew.  They may need to add some new men next season.

The choice is obvious:  Bronn.  He WAS promised a high-born lady.

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Tommen' s suicide was the only surprise in that sequence.

That WAS a surprise and I'm ashamed I didn't see it coming.  I just sat there looking at the view out his window thinking "What is he going to do now -- all those people dead, his wife dead, his mother bat-shit-crazy . . . oh."

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 What was the point of having Lancel scurry down the rabbit hole?  His torch wasn't necessary to ignite the wildfire, since they already had the candles burning down in the puddles of wildfire.  Was helplessly seeing it happen supposed to make his death worse?  Was the kid there just to ensure that Lancel stayed at the Sept until the explosion?  

Cinematic necessity.  We, the viewers, needed to see it so as to create the suspense.  Is Margery going to escape?  Can Lancel stop the explosion?  Much better than just "BOOM."  They could have taken the viewer down there without a character seeing.  The camera could have just swooped down there by itself.  Other movies/TV shows have used that technique.  But I don't think we've seen that on GoT.  In the book we see the world via a variety of point-of-view characters and the TV show has (I think) stuck to that as well.

Edited June 27, 2016 by WatchrTina

[mac123x]

11 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Ooooh "doom."  Now I'm starting to wonder if the "Doom" of Valyria really was a volcano or just more crazy people playing with weapons of mass destruction

There's actually a theory out there that the Faceless Men did exactly that.  They gave the Gift of the Many Faced God to the masters in Valyria by somehow making the 14 volcanoes explode.  Cercei's little explosion makes me wonder if they used wildfire as the primer.

4 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

Also, THANKS uncle Benjen for leaving Meera alone to drag Bran' s body without a sled! She barely hauled him to the tree.  Meera' s life sucks.

No kidding!  Sam and Gilly did the same thing on the outskirts of Oldtown.  Sure, we get a nice dramatic view of the Hightower, but now Gilly has to carry toddler Sam 5 miles.  Westeros needs Uber who'll drop you at your door.

[paigow]

10 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

2) What was the point of having Lancel scurry down the rabbit hole?  His torch wasn't necessary to ignite the wildfire, since they already had the candles burning down in the puddles of wildfire.  Was helplessly seeing it happen supposed to make his death worse?  

I was hoping for an elaborate Indiana Jones redundant trap sequence...Lancel blows out the candle, fist pumps, then realizes his crawling triggered a pressure plate that drops a giant torch into the Wildfire pool.

[domina89]

3 hours ago, BooBear said:

Is it wrong that I am shipping Lady Mormont and John Snow? She comes of age in like 8 years... John can wait. She was a highlight of that entire scene. 

I am there with you.  I can't get behind the Jon/Sansa pairing.  I just can't.  Too weird.  I would like to see Sansa with Tyrion, actually.  Lady Mormont is smart, loyal and is the master of the guilt trip.  Plus I think she has a little crush on Jon.  She is definitely worth the wait.

[screamin]

8 hours ago, Dev F said:

I'm not sure whether we're supposed to think that Cersei is playing innocent -- perhaps hoping to blame one of the realm's many enemies to and unite the people behind her in righteous vengeance -- or that she expects people to know it was her and is hoping to rule on pure pants-shitting fear.

Recall that the existing caches of wildfire beneath the city were a secret; Jaime may have told his siblings after he first confessed it to Brienne, but I doubt he blabbed it hither and thither. So as far as most observers can tell, there's just someone out there who can cause a huge building to explode in a horrifying conflagration at will. If that's Cersei, she ain't nothing to fuck with.

Ooh, that's a good explanation. I was thinking that the Tyrell armies must've fled her and that she couldn't hold a hostile city in which everyone has probably lost at least one family member to her terrorism with just the remnants of Lannister forces and one big zombie - but saying "anyone who doesn't support Queen Cersei gets his mansion blown up" might take care of dissent, at least short term.

[vibeology]

10 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Other than Olenna Tyrell telling the Sand Snakes to shut up because the grownups were talking, which please and thank you, the Dorne scenes still do nothing for me and if I'm supposed to be rooting for them as a part of Team Dany they fail.  Ellaria and the Terrible Trio murdered an innocent girl for having the wrong last name and then murdered their rightful rulers because ... reasons.  Something about wanting vengeance for a man who got himself killed showboating and pulling an Inigo Montoya instead of finishing the job he expressly stated he came to do.  Yes, Olenna just lost her entire family which is indeed terrible, but she murdered the son of her family's murderer as a purely preventative measure and pinned it on another member of that family which led to even more death.  Since then she's spent much of her time goading that murderer, even possibly planting the seed with "you can't kill everyone."  They're not exactly the poor innocent wronged victims here.

I really hope when Dany arrives and takes a look at some of her allies she tosses them into the sea. I have no respect or interest in those Dornish women. I can't figure out why I'm supposed to like or care about them at all. Oberyn died because he chose to fight for a chance to avenge his sister. The people the Sand Snakes should hate are the Lannisters not Doran and Trystane. Killing their Prince who was also family because he wasn't taking vengeance swiftly enough is pretty awful. Killing Myrcella instead of using her shows that they are short--sighted and useless. It would be much better for them to have the only "Baratheon" left in their control to rally armies to their side than to have a dead Myrcella and no gain from it at all.

As for Olenna, she has bad-ass moments and she calls people out, but at the end of the day her whole family is dead because she decided to play the Game of Thrones. It's obviously more complicated that just that, but she's been playing and there are risks.

 

5 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

There are no men left for Dany to marry now other than Robin and her nephew.  They may need to add some new men next season.

It's a short list for sure. I figure in terms of major houses there's only Robin Arryn, Jon Snow, Bran Stark, Jaime or Tyrion Lannister left. Edmure is alive but married and all the other noble lords are dead. We can write off the Greyjoys since Theon is useless dynastically (I know that's a harsh way of putting it, but it's true) and she's allied with Yara so wouldn't marry any of the Greyjoy uncles. If she goes into the minor houses, there's obviously more options. Bronn of the Blackwater, Sam's brother, any of the Northern Lords who are unmarried or Littlefinger (though I know that would never happen) or they have to add a new character.

More and more I'm thinking this will end with the throne being cast aside and some sort of democracy taking hold. There aren't any good marriage options for Dany and if she can't continue her line, why even invade? It would make far more sense to have her come in, "break the wheel" and change the system entirely so that the question of her marriage doesn't even matter.

[AnnaMayWong]

I don't believe that it has been substantiated that the Red Witch actually brought Jon back to life.                                                                                                        If Jon had not fought and winnowed Ramsey's forces, the Vale et al. would not have prevailed. In addition, if Jon had waited to engage at all, Ramsey most probably would have struck,  anyway, wreaking havoc and definitely, tortuously, causing agony and loss.

[benteen]

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Varys - Mentioned by other people, but it's sloppy when it feels like he teleports back to Meereen from Dorne. You need to show that some time has passed or it's laughable.

Yeah, I think they pushed it too far by having Varys return to Meereen and be on the ship with Dany.  We know he's Team Dany...we don't need to see him on a ship with her and Tyrion to prove it.

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Loras - I honestly didn't think it was possible to ruin Loras Tyrell more then they already did. In the books he's still a brave knight who dedicated himself to his true love, and is unrepentant of his love, and is a kick-ass swordsman. Now he's a dead guy who's last act was to cast aside that love and hate himself for his sexual orientation. I hate you show. I hate you so much.

No question, they completely destroyed the Loras character.  Book Loras would have left a pile of sparrow bodies before they so much as lay a finger on him.  I'm sorry Finn never got to play the real Loras but I'm happy he'll now be starring as Iron Fist next year.

[PTVjones]

Hi all! New to the forums! Learning a lot from all your comments!

I have questions that I'd LOVE for someone to answer/speculate for me.

So I'm reading the theories of who Daenerys will marry and the sort of very obvious choice would clearly be Jon Snow, as he is now King of the North. Those 2 combined would have a formiddable army, and since Daenerys has dragons, Jon would presumably ascertain that they would be key in defeating the Night Walkers. 

However wouldn't it make more sense marrying a Tyrell. From what I can tell there are still 2 Tyrell children who have never been on the show, Willas (the eldest and heir), and Garlan. Some ideas:

1. Olenna is allied with Daenerys through Varys from the scene in Dorne. Olenna wants revenge against Cersei and marrying her grandson to whom I'm sure she can see is the true heir to the Iron Throne would put her family back on top politically. Plus, since the Lannisters are no longer the most wealthy family, I can only assume that title would go to the Tyrell's and that would benefit Daenerys, on top of the Tyrell's being well liked (at the very least, much more liked than the Lannisters).
2. It would make sense for the other 2 Tyrell's to be cast onto the show to join their grandmother in avenging their father and their siblings'  deaths. I mean... are they really just going to chill in High Garden while all of this is going on?
3. In terms of the complexity of the show, is it really going to distill down to Lannister's v. Stark's v. Targaryan's? The show has spanned continents and families for the past 5 seasons, it seems a simple way to go considering the scope of the plot and the characters. 

Any clarity on this would be great!!!

[Misplaced]

The music was just gorgeous.  "Light of the Seven" for all the awards there are -- I think it may (...may) even be better than the Main Theme, which has been in my favourites for, er, six years.  

Gotta process the rest of the episode, there was so much there.  

Edited June 27, 2016 by Misplaced

[DigitalCount]

Earlier in the series, Tywin indicated that Loras was the heir to Highgarden, implying that Garlan and Willas were removed for simplicity's sake. They did the same with the Martells. I think it's unlikely that they'll show up. However, one could have said the same of Euron. So I guess we'll see. We have lost about 12 named characters in the last two episodes and consolidated the remaining ones under one of four banners, so we might get more supporting characters next season. 

[MadMouse]

Giving Qyburn the little birds scene itself isn't the problem, the issue is that it makes zero sense. Its more about the visual and doing another book moment than anything else. In the books killing Kevan and Pycelle makes sense since they're fixing the damage Cersei caused to cause chaos for Faegon to claim the crown. It also shows us learn Varys true motives and lets his true nature show. None of this is necessary in the show. 

[Alapaki]

I"m thinking that placing Sam in Oldtown, with it's library, given what he knows from being beyond the Wall, is that he will play some role in discovering just how the original First Man guy defeated the White Walkers back in the day. (assuming it's not as simple as having the Dragons scorch them all).

I can buy Loras as having been completely broken since he's spent some time in solitary and being subjected to who-knows-what sort of torture.  Ultimately I think they turned his character into the reason for Maergery to not simply jump on board with Jaime and Mace storming the Sept to defeat the High Sparrow.

[RedheadZombie]

I'm wondering what Lyanna whispered to Ned.  We heard almost everything except his name, I think.  Right?  I've read speculation elsewhere that she said a name beginning with "A", like Aegon.  But Rhaegar already has an Aegon by Elia Martell, so that's ridiculous.

So why did Tommen kill himself?  There's so many options.  He knows his wife died.  He possibly thinks his mother died as well.  He realizes Cersei did it, and can't bear knowing his mother's a monster.  He finally realizes he's a puppet being manipulated by his mother, wife, and the High Sparrow.  And interesting that he took the crown off first.

And how interesting was it that Cersei chose such a masculine outfit.  It almost looked like soldier clothing, minus the armor.  And she dressed that way before she claimed the throne.  I thought she might give it all up upon learning of Tommen's death.  Yet she almost had no reaction to it.  I think after Myrcella's death she realized the prophecy was true, and Tommen was a goner.  LH is capable of bringing me to tears, and she didn't.  So her lack of reaction had to be a deliberate choice.

I'm a little disappointed that after Cersei caught Jaime's eye, he didn't turn and walk away in rejection.  That surprised me.

And I'm deeply disappointed in the ambiguous ending with Jon/Sansa/LF.  I'm not going to believe Sansa wants to undermine Jon, or aid LF in dethroning him.  So don't go there, show.

[Boilergal]

I believe Cersei knew Tommen would kill himself after he saw the explosion and believed Margery to be dead.  Cersei dressed to take the Iron Throne at the end of the day, it was not like anything she had ever worn before and perfectly fitting to take the throne.

I guess the point of Lancel following the kid, getting stabbed and crawling to the candle was to show us never ending barrels of wildfire- and how hell bent Cersei was on revenge.

I was a tiny bit disappointed at the TOJ - I was hoping there were would be boy girl twins - I guess it's still possible, and Lyanna was more concerned with the Jon baby's safety.  

[Alapaki]

4 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

Giving Qyburn the little birds scene itself isn't the problem, the issue is that it makes zero sense. Its more about the visual and doing another book moment than anything else. In the books killing Kevan and Pycelle makes sense since they're fixing the damage Cersei caused to cause chaos for Faegon to claim the crown. It also shows us learn Varys true motives and lets his true nature show. None of this is necessary in the show. 

I think they've shown through several scenes this season that Pycelle was not on Cersei's side, and Cersei is clearly in an "if-you're-not-with-me-you're-against-me" mood.  I realize that's a departure from the books, but I think it justified Cersei having Pycelle killed.  And the end result is the same in that all of these deaths free Cersei up to cause chaos.

3 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

So why did Tommen kill himself?  There's so many options.  He knows his wife died.  He possibly thinks his mother died as well.  He realizes Cersei did it, and can't bear knowing his mother's a monster.  He finally realizes he's a puppet being manipulated by his mother, wife, and the High Sparrow.  And interesting that he took the crown off first.

Obviously it's open to interpretation until/unless the show-runners chime in.  I'm guessing that he realized that FrankenGregor's preventing him from going meant that Cersei wasn't at the Sept, and was most likely behind what he just saw happen.  So I think his despair was the result of his realization that his going along with the High Sparrow lead directly (in his mind) to what he just witnessed.

[DigitalCount]

I think Sansa is pretty firmly in Jon's corner here. Her face was one of realization; if Jon is KiTN, he is an obstacle or at least a threat to Baelish's plan to be the king. She was realizing, setting him not joining in, that he's now their enemy. 

[vibeology]

3 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

I"m thinking that placing Sam in Oldtown, with it's library, given what he knows from being beyond the Wall, is that he will play some role in discovering just how the original First Man guy defeated the White Walkers back in the day. (assuming it's not as simple as having the Dragons scorch them all).

That has to be the purpose of sending Sam south, but he is moving at a very slow pace. He is the only character left who isn't past the books. I'm sure he's going to learn something important there, but the lack of the time jump in the novels and the subsequent lack of progress on this plot in the show means Sam doesn't have time to learn anything more than the one important thing that will save the day. Sam should have reached the Citadel a year ago so he'd be ready to head back North soon rather than just arriving now. Nothing Sam has done has been important enough to justify dragging this one plot behind all the others. Heck, he could have stolen the Valyrian Steel sword on his way back if that part of the plot was so important. The Wall needs a Maester; a Maester is the medical expert and seeing as they're about to go to war with White Walkers, I imagine a doctor would be important. They need someone who is skilled with ravens so if there are urgent messages to send like say the Wall falling, someone can get those messages out. Sam is either going to power up immensely off-screen the way Varys travels or he's lagging behind the rest of this story.

2 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

And how interesting was it that Cersei chose such a masculine outfit.  It almost looked like soldier clothing, minus the armor.  And she dressed that way before she claimed the throne.  I thought she might give it all up upon learning of Tommen's death.  Yet she almost had no reaction to it.  I think after Myrcella's death she realized the prophecy was true, and Tommen was a goner.  LH is capable of bringing me to tears, and she didn't.  So her lack of reaction had to be a deliberate choice.

Cersei's outfit was her dressing up like her dad. She always wanted his love and respect and to prove to him that she was his heir so now that she was doing something 10x bigger than destroying the Reynes, she dressed for the occasion.

[Funzlerks]

I thought there was a tremendous parallel to Ned Stark's decision to falsely confess.  He did everything he could to save his daughters, even losing his honor to do so.  And he still couldn't grasp that people like Cersei and Joffrey are so evil that nothing would save his family.  Then, Cersei had a chance to sacrifice for the child she pretends is so important to her and instead she blows up a sixth of the capital so she can be Queen of nothing.  She has no allies, she has killed most of her family even.  What fighting force does she have?  Without serious treachery, Robb was wiping the floor against the Lannisters.  There is no way the Kinghts of the Vale couldn't just ride through them at this point.  And Cersei and Casterly Rock are broke.  The only thing she has is animal cunning.

I thought the two quiet Danerys scenes were pretty boring.  Peter Dinklage better have some scenes next season without her, Missandei, and Grey Worm.  They suck the life out of a room.

[stagmania]

8 hours ago, ulkis said:

I don't care about Margaery, but I can kinda see where people are coming from on that point. All that plot Marg was involved in, and then she's just killed off like that. Her death felt the most pointless to me, in terms of a character who got a lot of screentime.

I'm really disappointed in how they lost track of her this season. And the big implication that she was playing a long game with the High Sparrow amounted to nothing. It's an unfortunate trend this season-the details of the plot maneuvering and motivations don't really hang together for a lot of the characters, and there's an awful lot of setup that got little or no payoff. I'm happy with where the season left us, but much of what came before it was pretty sloppy.

32 minutes ago, vibeology said:

More and more I'm thinking this will end with the throne being cast aside and some sort of democracy taking hold. There aren't any good marriage options for Dany and if she can't continue her line, why even invade? It would make far more sense to have her come in, "break the wheel" and change the system entirely so that the question of her marriage doesn't even matter.

I really love this idea, and I hope you're right. The more I watch this show, the less I understand why anyone would want to sit on the Iron Throne.

[Argenta]

11 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I have a feeling that Ser Pounce's fate will be one of those unanswered questions.

Ser Pounce? He observed Tommen's window-plunge with mild interest, blinked once, then settled down to licking his paws. 

Cersei, the killer queen, guaranteed to blow your mind...and everything else as well. 

Awesome episode. Everyone involved deserves props. 

[MarySNJ]

5 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

I think Sansa is pretty firmly in Jon's corner here. Her face was one of realization; if Jon is KiTN, he is an obstacle or at least a threat to Baelish's plan to be the king. She was realizing, setting him not joining in, that he's now their enemy. 

Yes, I took Sansa's smile when Jon was declared to be KitN to be genuinely happy for him, and her expression changes to worry when she gets a glimpse of the bared concealed rage in Littlefinger's expression. She will have to make sure her Noble "fool" of a brother/cousin doesn't make the same mistake that Ned did in regard to trusting Littlefinger. 

I wonder if Littlefinger will try to sabotage Jon by disclosing his true parentage. That would be devasting for Jon, knowing that the man he know as Father is really his uncle, and the implication that he is not just a bastard Stark on his mother's side, but a presumed product of rape. Note: I don't believe that Lyanna was raped, and Jon may be a true born son of Rhaegar in the end, but it still makes Jon last in line behind Bran, Sansa and Arya taken strictly by rules of succession. 

[Alapaki]

5 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I'm really disappointed in how they lost track of her this season. And the big implication that she was playing a long game with the High Sparrow amounted to nothing. It's an unfortunate trend this season-the details of the plot maneuvering and motivations don't really hang together for a lot of the characters, and there's an awful lot of setup that got little or no payoff. I'm happy with where the season left us, but much of what came before it was pretty sloppy.

Well, they always had made much more of Maegery's role on the show than she had in the books.  I really think that may just be a function of having lucked into Natalie Dormer for the role and not wanting to waste such a compelling actor.  So they stretched the role to fit the actor, even though ultimately they knew she wasn't going to have a significant role in the end-game.

[Constantinople]

I don't have a problem with Cersei wanting to kill Pycelle.  She's never liked him and he did work with the Tommen/Sparrow regime.  Cersei wants absolute obedience at all times, see Qyburn & Gregor Clegane.  So I think she would very much like to see Pycelle dead.

But once everything went down at the Sept of Baelor, Pycelle would have been a reliable lickspittle, and Cersei should have realized that.  Now the Citadel will send a new Grand Maester who may be much less subservient than.  Of course, it would be just like Cersei not to think that far ahead.

[benteen]

The High Sparrow really overplayed his hand.  He got cocky and he pushed and pushed and pushed against the great Houses.  It wasn't enough for Loras to confess his "sins", he need to brand him and make him a sparrow.  He got cocky and thought he was untouchable.  Finally, his greatest enemy pushed back and sent him flying out of the window of Baelor figuratively. 

[Argenta]

So who would be the rightful claimant to the Iron Throne?

Not that i think Cersei would give a damn - in fact she'd be certain to have any potential rivals murdered - but I'm curious. I've looked at the Baratheon family tree and I can't see any candidates. 

[Maximum Taco]

3 minutes ago, Argenta said:

So who would be the rightful claimant to the Iron Throne?

Not that i think Cersei would give a damn - in fact she'd be certain to have any potential rivals murdered - but I'm curious. I've looked at the Baratheon family tree and I can't see any candidates. 

Ironically it'd be Daenerys (or Jon), Robert has legitimacy via the female line of House Targaryen through his grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen (aunt to the Mad King Aerys II). With no Baratheons left, the line of succession would go through Aerys and end at Daenerys (or Jon if someone can prove he's Rhaegars trueborn son)

[MadMouse]

20 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

I think they've shown through several scenes this season that Pycelle was not on Cersei's side, and Cersei is clearly in an "if-you're-not-with-me-you're-against-me" mood.  I realize that's a departure from the books, but I think it justified Cersei having Pycelle killed.  And the end result is the same in that all of these deaths free Cersei up to cause chaos.

I agree with that in principal but like the Frey Pie scene both felt tacked on and unearned. Its nothing new, the show has been all about iconic book moments with no build up for some time. Its become more Michael Bay and less Ridley Scott which is disappointing. It also does a disservice not only to the source material but treats the audience like idiots.  The Frey Pie scene goes from a massive double cross and conspiracy to an R rated version of Scooby Doo.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Little Lady Mormont is getting milked excessively for her "badass" qualities. Characters like that are best in small doses. They become insufferable quickly.

Yeah - I know her bad-assery is getting a lot of "likes" but I've never found her very plausible. I can't imagine any of the great houses letting a nine year old run the show no matter how "tough" she is. Especially when she's a girl. I'd think there would be some sort of regent in place to run House Mormont until she came of age. And I can't see all those other Northern lords letting some little girl shame them in public. I think most of them would be like "Sit your ass down, little girl."

[Argenta]

6 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Ironically it'd be Daenerys (or Jon), Robert has legitimacy via the female line of House Targaryen through his grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen (aunt to the Mad King Aerys II). With no Baratheons left, the line of succession would go through Aerys and end at Daenerys (or Jon if someone can prove he's Rhaegars trueborn son)

Interesting - I knew about Robert's Targaryen granny, but I was wondering if perhaps he had any Baratheon cousins. I suppose though that as far as the show at least is concerned, House Baratheon is no more. Thanks for the response!

[Argenta]

6 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

 The Frey Pie scene goes from a massive double cross and conspiracy to an R rated version of Scooby Doo.

Walder would have gotten away with it if it weren't for that meddling Stark kid!

[ulkis]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Aunt/nephew is not considered incestuous in Westeros (nor was it in much of European monarchical history -- the Habsburgs did it a lot, for instance). 

It was still considered incest though. People had to get the pope's permission to marry anyone who was related to them in the seventh degree. Even if they got permission (and obviously they did), it was still considered incest. Often people used it as a pretext to get divorced, too. There were a lot of instances of "oops, we're too closely related, totally didn't realize it, gotta divorce!"

Richard III had to speak publically to dispel rumors that he planned on marrying his neice Elizabeth of York.

Yeah, the Hapsburgs did it at times but they were the exception.

We haven't seen any indication in the show that aunt/nephew is accepted in Westeros. Maybe it is but the audience is probably gonna be all what the hell if Jon and Dany are presented as a love match.

[Gertrude]

Yeah, Lyanna is fun, but you have to be willing to buy into it without thinking to hard about it. I am willing.

What I wasn't fond of from Lyanna is that she supported Jon over Sansa. It's a small thing, but Lyanna should see that being a woman is no bar to being a strong leader. Yes, I know, there are reasons why people might prefer Jon over Sansa, and I'm not disagreeing, it's just that I thought little Lady Mormont might have a different perspective. (and if I buy that Jon would take Winterfell over Sansa because he's a warrior who can inspire people, then I have to take it on faith that he's OK taking it from Bran as well - I'll let it pass for the show)

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, ulkis said:

We haven't seen any indication in the show that aunt/nephew is accepted in Westeros. Maybe it is but the audience is probably gonna be all what the hell if Jon and Dany are presented as a love match.

Jon and Dany are the same age and have no prior knowledge of each other, so if it is heading for Jon/Dany, I don't think it'll be an issue -- plus, the show has, if nothing else, invested a lot of time into normalizing incestuous matches.

[RedheadZombie]

Did anyone else geek out when the opening montage showed the wolf back on Winterfell?

12 hours ago, CofCinci said:

They blew the budget with fire and the battle last week.  Can't afford the direwolf. 

We could have still had Ghost this episode, but they chose the dragon scene at the end instead.  Dragons always trump direwolves, apparently.

12 hours ago, ybrik said:

Knew Jon wouldn't kill Mel since she did save him but glad he did banish her for Davos's sake. Also liked that Jon had no anger or bitterness about Sansa not telling him about the Vale soldiers. Liked that they both had a moment to smile with the start of winter. Long time since the Stark's smiled.

I loved the moment when Sansa announced, "Winter is here", and they both smiled.  Before they said anything, you just knew they were thinking of Ned.

[Funzlerks]

Do the Starks change their motto to I Told You So once winter begins?

I thought Sansa's look was a little bit worried about Littlefinger and also realizing that no matter what she does she is going to beside a king.  She did bring the troops that won the war; Jon admits that.  She had to convince Jon to even start the process.  But The North just forgets her as soon as possible because Jon can wield a sword. I think even though she appreciates Jon, that has to sting.  Just because you are a woman and because you have been tossed around from abuser to abuser, you are completely forgotten even when you are sitting right there next to the king.  

[RedheadZombie]

45 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Yes, I took Sansa's smile when Jon was declared to be KitN to be genuinely happy for him, and her expression changes to worry when she gets a glimpse of the bared concealed rage in Littlefinger's expression. She will have to make sure her Noble "fool" of a brother/cousin doesn't make the same mistake that Ned did in regard to trusting Littlefinger. 

I wonder if Littlefinger will try to sabotage Jon by disclosing his true parentage. That would be devasting for Jon, knowing that the man he know as Father is really his uncle, and the implication that he is not just a bastard Stark on his mother's side, but a presumed product of rape. Note: I don't believe that Lyanna was raped, and Jon may be a true born son of Rhaegar in the end, but it still makes Jon last in line behind Bran, Sansa and Arya taken strictly by rules of succession. 

I agree about Jon.  Even if he were to discover his parents married and he's not a bastard, it will be a greater loss not to be Ned's son.  Jon has based his entire life around Ned.

[Auntie Velvet]

I know Cersei is not meant to be a classic heroine, but I'm a little dismayed by the universal online "Hell yeah!" about her revenge. I can still admire her even while wiping out enemies that the audience is fond of, but arranging to have the evil nun raped and tortured for days is hardly a Lemonade moment.   

[stagmania]

2 minutes ago, Auntie Velvet said:

I know Cersei is not meant to be a classic heroine, but I'm a little dismayed by the universal online "Hell yeah!" about her revenge. I can still admire her even while wiping out enemies that the audience is fond of, but arranging to have the evil nun raped and tortured for days is hardly a Lemonade moment.   

I feel the same way. It seems a lot of people are suddenly cool with burning down a city and condemning a woman to rape and torture as long as a "badass" lady does it. Am I supposed to feel that the (self-induced) trials she endured last season justify this? Because I really, really don't. This is where GoT's particular brand of late-arriving empty feminism is really baffling to me. 

[ulkis]

Cersei's outfit was a little too "evil nutcracker man" for me.

[annewithaneee]

Cersei definitely unleashed the Mountain to rape the Septa, right? Or at least, that was part of what was on the misery menu? It turned my stomach, and I felt no catharsis with the "shame, shame, shame!" line Cersei delivered. 

Sansa, Dany, Yara, Lyanna Mormont etc have been delivering a lot of "whoooo empowerment!!" this season, which is a welcome change. However, if I'm reading this right and a character ordered a reanimated rapist-and-murderer to torture and rape a nun, that might make the top 10 most horrifying acts of sexual violence on this show even offscreen.