S06.E09: Battle Of The Bastards

[FemmyV]

That was satisfying.

Sansa, Sansa, Sansa! Six years into the show, six years, to get to the smart, sharp young woman we saw tonight. Talk about a fucking character arc, but one thing was still missing: Sansa figured out that Ramsey was going to kill Rickon no matter what — that was good. A little emotion over the impending murder of said brother would more weight to the insight. And, the Wolf Princess got her first kill. It was a good one.

I think she is going to marry LF, did you see that smile on her face when the Vale troops came in? She's getting a taste of power and knows Petyr can offer her more.

Dany and the Wise Masters: I loved everything about Mereen tonight, from Tyrion coaching Dany against killing everything in sight, to the confrontation with the Masters ("My reign has just begun"), the dragons - all three. I also liked that it DIDN'T turn out to be a case of Yara ex machina, and that Dany, the Dothraki (whose arrival was pretty much on time), and the Dragons got the job done on their own. I loved Grey Worm slice & dice. And I really, really, really liked Dany/Tyrion/Yara/Theon, and their idealism in the notion they can do better than all their fathers. Oh, yeah, Happy Fathers Day, y'all.

The actual fighting of the Bastard Bowl battle was the least interesting part for me, except strategy parts, like how Ramsey (Sansa was right!) pissed Jon off enough to abandon their plans and let his troops get surrounded, and get himself virtually undefended in front (the Red God must like Snow a WHOLE lot to keep him free from injury). Also the part where the cinematography went strobe. Ooh. Arty.

Ramsey, what an asshole and coward. And true to form, he's up for one-on-one with Jon as long as he's got a ranged weapon.

Another nice touch: the changing of the banners to match last week, at River Run.

Things I look forward to learning when Dany hits Westeros: Who, besides the Ironborn, will join the cause? Who will refuse? And who will change their initial sides?

My guess is: Dorne and Highgarden will go with Dany immediately. In the cases of Starks, the Vale, Lannister and Frey, if there are any left by Season 7 ep 02, I expect all kinds of switching back and forth among people who don't want to be allied to each other, but marriage demands it.

Edited June 20, 2016 by FemmyV

[DropTheSoap]

1 minute ago, J----av said:

 How is Ramsay a coward? Ramsay is probably one of the bravest men in Westeros. He is known to be stupidly brave to the point of being completely reckless 

He's calculating and a bit reckless when he has the odds and the game stacked in his favor. E.g., hunting women with his dogs or playing mind games on his captives. 

When it comes to actually stepping out on his own with no one at his back, he tried to bluff. He's a great social engineer that way. But if he doesn't have the clear win because he's got the backup of others, he's not going to put himself at risk.

Note: should have wrote this is the past tense.

[J----av]

20 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

As satisfying as it was to see Jon beat Ramsey with his bare hands and to watch Sansa watch as his dogs tore in to shreds, there was a part of me that really wanted to Jon to just have his archers shoot the MoFo when he suggested (in the courtyard of Winterfell) that NOW he was ready to face Jon in single combat.  Yeah, he was ready to face Jon -- Jon who had been fighting hand-to-hand for his life for 15 minutes and had sprinted across the length of three or four football fields to catch Ramsey who had just been sitting on a horse during the whole battle.  Wanker.  I immediately thought of that scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark when the big turbaned bad guy wants to have a sword fight with Indiana and he just shoots him.  I would have laughed so hard if Jon had just signaled to all those archers to "Just shoot him."

 He was commanding his troops and doing a much better job of it then Jon (who was a complete idiot in the battle)

[Gertrude]

Read enough of this thread to see that people are loving it. I am not as enthusiastic, but will wait a bit before tossing a wet blanket on things.

[J----av]

Just now, DropTheSoap said:

He's calculating and a bit reckless when he has the odds and the game stacked in his favor. E.g., hunting women with his dogs or playing mind games on his captives. 

When it comes to actually stepping out on his own with no one at his back, he tried to bluff. He's a great social engineer that way. But if he doesn't have the clear win because he's got the backup of others, he's not going to put himself at risk.

Note: should have wrote this is the past tense.

 When have we seen this? In the books, Ramsay is known to just charge wildly without thinking he could ever get hurt. Ramsay is the guy who charged the Iron Born's best fighters with his freaking shirt off. Tonight he commanded his troops and then went back to the castle when he started losing the battle, but that was smart. People can hate on Ramsay all they want, but he is no coward

[J----av]

6 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

That was satisfying.

Sansa, Sansa, Sansa! Six years into the show, six years, to get to the smart, sharp young woman we saw tonight. Talk about a fucking character arc, but one thing was still missing: Sansa figured out that Ramsey was going to kill Rickon no matter what — that was good. A little emotion over the impending murder of said brother would more weight to the insight. And, the Wolf Princess got her first kill. It was a good one.

I think she is going to marry LF, did you see that smile on her face when the Vale troops came in? She's getting a taste of power and knows Petyr can offer her more.

Dany and the Wise Masters: I loved everything about Mereen tonight, from Tyrion coaching Dany against killing everything in sight, to the confrontation with the Masters ("My reign has just begun"), the dragons - all three. I also liked that it DIDN'T turn out to be a case of Yara ex machina, and that Dany, the Dothraki (whose arrival was pretty much on time), and the Dragons got the job done on their own. I loved Grey Worm slice & dice. And I really, really, really liked Dany/Tyrion/Yara/Theon, and their idealism in the notion they can do better than all their fathers. Oh, yeah, Happy Fathers Day, y'all.

The actual fighting of the Bastard Bowl battle was the least interesting part for me, except strategy parts, like how Ramsey (Sansa was right!) pissed Jon off enough to abandon their plans and let his troops get surrounded, and get himself virtually undefended in front (the Red God must like Snow a WHOLE lot to keep him free from injury). Also the part where the cinematography went strobe. Ooh. Arty.

Ramsey, what an asshole and coward. And true to form, he's up for one-on-one with Jon as long as he's got a ranged weapon.

Another nice touch: the changing of the banners to match last week, at River Run.

Things I look forward to learning when Dany hits Westeros: Who, besides the Ironborn, will join the cause? Who will refuse? And who will change their initial sides?

My guess is: Dorne and Highgarden will go with Dany immediately. In the cases of Starks, the Vale, Lannister and Frey, if there are any left by Season 7 ep 02, I expect all kinds of switching back and forth among people who don't want to be allied to each other, but marriage demands it.

 Not really sure what you were watching. Sansa seemed smarter back in Kings Landing. Her withholding the info about the Knights of The Vale cost her and Jon a few thousand men

[Ambrosefolly]

25 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

As satisfying as it was to see Jon beat Ramsey with his bare hands and to watch Sansa watch as his dogs tore in to shreds, there was a part of me that really wanted to Jon to just have his archers shoot the MoFo when he suggested (in the courtyard of Winterfell) that NOW he was ready to face Jon in single combat.  Yeah, he was ready to face Jon -- Jon who had been fighting hand-to-hand for his life for 15 minutes and had sprinted across the length of three or four football fields to catch Ramsey who had just been sitting on a horse during the whole battle.  Wanker.  I immediately thought of that scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark when the big turbaned bad guy wants to have a sword fight with Indiana and he just shoots him.  I would have laughed so hard if Jon had just signaled to all those archers to "Just shoot him."

The hilarious thing was that Jon did kick his ass in hand to hand combat. He probably would have killed him if Sansa wasn't standing there. Ramsay finally miscalculated: everything he did to hurt and trick Jon and Sansa back fired tremendously as Jon was so pumped up with rage and adrenaline that Jon was able to make short work of getting to Ramsay. 

[FemmyV]

1 hour ago, lmsweb said:

Edit to add: I just realized I am sounding anal about this. I'm not, usually. But I did do a "whaaa...?" when that happened and was trying to remember if Sansa was still there when he said it. Bottom line is Ramsay got ate by bitches and that was a satisfying end for me.

No, not at all. Once upon a time, TV shows hired people whose job was to spot these kinds of holes. This bothers you for the same reason that Brienne's failure to inform Sansa that Arya was traveling with the Hound bothered me and others: it's unfuckinglikely and it takes away from willing suspension ...

[Minneapple]

4 minutes ago, J----av said:

 People can hate on Ramsay all they want, but he is no coward

I think he's a coward because he rapes women. Well. I'd probably use a few worse words than coward. But that's just my opinion.

Anyway, he's dead.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Minneapple

[FemmyV]

3 minutes ago, J----av said:

Not really sure what you were watching. Sansa seemed smarter back in Kings Landing. Her withholding the info about the Knights of The Vale cost her and Jon a few thousand men

I made a willing exception; smart or not, the Vale troops did show up in time.

[OhOkayWhat]

It is interesting when people mix two things:

a) what they WANT a character to do, and

b) what a character actually does in the show because there ARE REASONS to behave in a certain way.

And if A does not coincide with B they say the writing does not make sense, and I think there is a problem with that reasoning.

[J----av]

2 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I think he's a coward because he rapes women. Well. I'd probably use a few worse words than coward. But that's just my opinion.

Anyway, he's dead.

That makes him a terrible person not a coward. Ramsay was fearless

1 minute ago, FemmyV said:

I made a willing exception; smart or not, the Vale troops did show up in time.

 If she accepted LFs help earlier, or told Jon they were coming, they would have ran through the Boltons and saved thousands of lives. Hell, they might have even saved Rickon, but probably not

[FemmyV]

3 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

It is interesting when people mix two things:

a) what they WANT a character to do, and

b) what a character actually does in the show because there ARE REASONS to behave in a certain way.

And if A does not coincide with B they say the writing does not make sense, and I think there is a problem with that reasoning.

In the example I gave, I'm quite sure that whatever reason those who defended the decision to withhold offered up, the show has yet to affirm.

 

That makes him a terrible person not a coward. Ramsay was fearless

Ramsey was a total coward, who was emboldened when he believed he could get away with his shit and leave someone else holding the bag. Theon's own army was already rebelling against him when Ramsey attacked. His torturing people had the dual purpose of leaving them in fear of him, and helping him feel in control. He killed his father by faking him out with a show of affection to get close, when he feared losing Winterfell and understood there would be no repercussions from the locals; he used Theon to lull the Ironborn into a peace treaty, then violated it, slaughtering everyone. In all of Ramsey's victories, it was because he controlled all factors and took care not to fight anyone on equal footing and alertness. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by FemmyV

[Minneapple]

Just now, J----av said:

That makes him a terrible person not a coward. Ramsay was fearless

He was scared of taking on Jon in single combat. 

[ulkis]

2 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

He was scared of taking on Jon in single combat. 

Hell, he was scared of taking on Jon either way. If he was so confident about his army taking on Jon's he wouldn't've bothered trying to lure Jon out.

[AbFabGab]

1 hour ago, AGuyToo said:

In this episode, we saw Davos discover Shireen's toy and the pyre on which she was burned.

But it's been weeks (at least) since Stannis killed Shireen. What did Davos think happened to her? Did he really never ask? In all this time?

IIRC Davos did ask, but there was just a vague response that she didn't make it. Seeing the toy next to tthe pyre was probably his first hint that it wasn't a battle related fatality that did her in.

[J----av]

4 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

He was scared of taking on Jon in single combat. 

No he was smart. It would be stupid to fight someone 1 on 1 when you have a HUGE man advantage, better trained fighters, more horses, a field advantage and when you are much smarter then your opponent. Was Robb a coward too because he turned down Jamie's offer to fight 1 on 1 to decide the war? 

Edited June 20, 2016 by J----av

[OhOkayWhat]

5 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

In the example I gave, I'm quite sure that whatever reason those who defended the decision to withhold offered up, the show has yet to affirm.

I was talking about Sansa and Jon. But I can apply it to Brienne and Sansa too: the show gave us enough info to explain why Brienne said "a man" .

And I also think that Ramsay was a coward.

Edited June 20, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[TwistedandBored]

I loved this episode. As others have said, it was more about the Rise of The Queen than Battle of The Bastards. 

RIP MVP Wun Wun and little Rickon Stark. 

Seeing the Winterfell House Banner go up just made me tear-eyed. Long time coming. 

For the first time in forever, I enjoyed all the scenes involving Meereen. All 3 Dragons flying and fighting together was amazing. 

I ship Dany and Yara. I don't care if it will happen or not but it was awesome seeing them flirt. 

As soon as Davos found out about Shireen's death, I was just at the edge of my seat thinking about when he might off Melisandre. I really thought he will stab her when he saw her in that last scene but I guess they are saving that for next episode. 

I really think Death might have changed Jon Snow. We are all wondering how he changed after he died and maybe this is how he changed. He seemed much more emotional and blood thirsty than the leader he was in previous battles. Maybe Death really did change Jon Snow. 

[anamika]

3 hours ago, AzureOwl said:

As I said, if Jon had sticked to the plan, the causalties would've been considerably less. He would've had the Boltons engaged on three sides and the Knights of the Vale would've taken them from the fourth.

What plan? Jon had no idea about the Vale knights. Why would he plan something expecting Vale knights to take them from the fourth considering he did not know they existed?

3 hours ago, Advance35 said:

But what proof did she have.  LF told her in an abandoned brothel that he would do anything he could to help her but he never sent a raven or anything else that officially committed him to their side.   Sansa was operating on pure backroom dealing and I don't think SHE was sure he would come.   I think the show could have articulated it better but that didn't bother me. Oh well.

But why does she never mention it to Jon? She could have told him that she asked for help and LF may show up. Here's the various scenario:

1. Sansa tells Jon about the possible Vale reinforcements. They then use that info to gain Glover support by telling him that it's not just Wildlings, but that the Vale is coming to support them.

2. Jon waits for more men from the Vale

3. If no men come, we get the current scenario

4. If men come, they have a more well planned attack.

If Sansa had told Jon, there would have been no loss at all. Jon would have either accepted the help and waited or not accepted and attacked and we get the current scenario.

There's absolutely no reason for her to not tell Jon unless she wanted the glory of the victory. Or more likely the show wanted a last minute rescue by LF so both Jon and Sansa had to act like idiots.

37 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

.in fact not telling Jon, since he fails to treat her as an equal, is her response. I think she did know that Littlefinger and the Vale army were in the vicinity..

So she was being vindictive about Jon not listening to her and allowed all those men to die because of that?

Edited June 20, 2016 by anamika

[Andromeda]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

Pretty epic battle sequence.  I'm disappointed that Littlefinger intervened...every major battle on TV and in the movies always seems to end like that doesn't it?  It made no sense for Sansa not to tell him about it.  But still, the battle was great and I'm glad to see Ramsay get his.  I was spoiled about Death by Hounds but it was a fitting, painful end for that prick.

You mean with the cavalry arriving in the nick of time to save the day? Yeah, I think that's been done a few times...  : )

I kind of get why Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Vale. She didn't know if they would arrive, so it was better not to count on them. If they'd sent a raven confirmation, she definitely should have told Jon so he could plan for them. She would have preferred never to see him again. I think the preview for next week's explains her reticence to involve Littlefinger any further. He is going to expect something big from her in return.

I loved the Mereen scenes -- been dreaming of seeing all three dragons doing their thing for so long! I hope Dany keeps listening to Tyrion, though -- I don't want her to be all fiery-vengeful, because that could lead to becoming a monster. And I love Dany being strong, but not a bitch-on-wheels (or on dragon wings). So I LOVED that she was willing to cede the Iron Islands, AND forced Yara to agree to knock off the pillaging and plundering and rape (so declasse). If she does that with other of the kingdoms, she might be more of an empress and less of a direct queen. Let them have their kingships, as long as they respect her. Like head of the EU or NATO...

Edited June 20, 2016 by Andromeda
added more

[VCRTracking]

I love  the Starks but none of them have been the sharpest of tacks. Sansa should have told Jon about the Vale's army, Jon shouldn't have charged, Rickon should have zig-zagged. Two weeks ago Arya should have been more alert and four weeks ago Bran shouldn't have gone on visions by himself.

Edited June 20, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Minneapple]

Just now, ulkis said:

Hell, he was scared of taking on Jon either way. If he was so confident about his army taking on Jon's he wouldn't've bothered trying to lure Jon out.

No, I think he was confident about his army. . But the Rickon move was just as Sansa said, Ramsey playing a game. And Jon fell right into the trap.

Just now, J----av said:

No he was smart. It would be stupid to fight someone 1 on 1 when you have a HUGE man advantage, better trained fighters, more horses, a field advantage and when you are much smarter then your opponent. Was Robb a coward too because he turned down Jamie's offer to fight 1 on 1 to decide the war? 

"Smart" does not necessarily mean "brave." I mean Jon took the offer to fight with the armies even though he had a smaller, more ragtag army. That makes Jon braver than Ramsey. It also makes him more reckless.

Whatever, Ramsey's dead so ring the bells.

[Insomnia]

Forget coming back to life, tonight we just watched the rebirth of Jon when he was climbing out of that pile of bodies.

Also while not exactly a star shape those burning flayed bodies were there, salt and smoke from the battle, and Jon's sword was very bright red from all the blood when he was approaching Ramsey, not al dark and dirty blood like... everywhere else.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Insomnia

[FemmyV]

5 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I was talking about Sansa and Jon. But I can apply it to Brienne and Sansa too: the show gave us enough info to explain why Brienne said "a man" .

And I also think that Ramsay was a coward.

Well, we agree on one of those points, anyway.

[loki567]

I look at this episode the same way I look at "The Watchers on the Wall," empty calories. Production value was great but if you can't get me invested in the stakes on either side, what is there? They framed the entire season making Jon look like an idiot and the North look like chumps in order to give the illusion that it was an unwinnable battle, when come on. 

I get way they wanted to take the storyline away from Stannis and give it to the Starks, but watching them use tactics or subterfuge to win this thing would have been way more narratively satisfying. Instead Jon acts like an idiot, gets a lucky break, they do another last second rescue, and Littlefinger gets to smug.

But at least Ramsey is dead. Finally. Absolute worst decision this show's ever made, making him the center piece of the North for the last four years. Goodbye to the writers' favorite mancrush. 

[Andromeda]

4 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I love  the Starks but none of them have been the sharpest of tacks. Sansa should have told Jon about the Vale's army, Jon shouldn't have charged, Rickon should have zig-zagged. Two weeks ago Arya should have been more alert and four weeks ago Bran should have flash backed by himself.

So true. Rickon zig-zagging especially. I was yelling at him to do just that. Don't behave like a golf ball. turn around and look where the arrow's headed and go a different direction, silly!

Also, I was hoping Jon would be able to use his and Sansa's superior knowledge of their HOME, the way Osha snuck Rickon and Bran out in the first place, after hiding out in the crypts. If they knew of a secret entrance, for instance, or particular strengths or weaknesses of the keep. I would have found that more satisfying than another big-field battle, though it was pretty cool.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Andromeda

[BloatedGuppy]

Entertaining spectacle television. We're a far cry from Season 1 where the major battles took place off-screen. 

That said, it was also rather cheesy in parts, and super super SUPER fan servicey. The show was veritably mugging its audience for cheers. So...fun, but fun in a slightly tawdry "a show has no dignity" way.

[jeansheridan]

Quote

Usually I'm not too fond of the costuming on this show,

Oh but the armor!  I loved Jon's battle clothes.  With his man bun it felt very Japanese.  We were talking about how little armor most the characters had really.  Brienne is one of the few characters who wears the full get-up.  And I guess Jamie has that awesome chest-plate, but most of them are in hardened leather outfits.  

If you had told me I'd like Kit Harington so much based on Season 1, I'd be shocked.  He's grown so much.  He brings humanity to these epic scenes.A reviewer a few weeks ago commented about what a good physical actor he is (it was the reanimation scene and how he looked lost for a moment and then got his bearings and he does it all without talking.

I like the actor who plays Ramsey (he's very good in Misfits), but he's all about the talking talking talking.  He went for obvious in this episode whereas I felt Jon was lost, frustrated, resigned.  I mean when he faces that line of horses!  Clearly he isn't hearing his own line behind him.  Just a beautiful and horrifying moment.  And then the moment when he's almost crushed to death!  I've never seen that in a movie.  Maybe it's been done before, but I really appreciated how it reduced the action to him again.  That battle was so intimate in many ways.

I sort of wish the wildings had just open up and shot Ramsey.  Filled him with arrows like the end of The Throne of Blood.

And Yara won the episode for me.  She read Dany perfectly.  And I love her insisting on a handshake.  

Best episode this season.  And Ghost lives!

[Black Knight]

Although Jon certainly let Ramsay play him, he's really not the one who made the biggest dumb decision - no, I'm not talking about Sansa, who had no way of knowing whether LF would actually turn up with the Vale troops or, if he did, would actually bring the Vale troops in on her side - it's Davos.

All Jon did was ride out to try to reach Rickon in time to save him. He didn't command any of his army to go with him, to leave the fortified position they had carefully set up to forestall Ramsay's forces. It's Davos who did that. And then we saw Davos repeat the same damn mistake later in the battle, in commanding a group that was too pitifully small to make any difference to fling themselves into the fray anyway to get butchered along with everybody else.

Davos is the one who got their forces butchered needlessly. Yes, Jon was dumb to ride out to Rickon, but that's his brother, and the only one Jon endangered was himself. But to be fair to Davos, he's not a general, he really never has been. Before Stannis raised him up, he was a smuggler, which didn't exactly prepare him to lead large-scale military endeavors. Stannis was one of the finest military commanders in the realm, so it didn't matter that Davos wasn't a military guy - he was valuable to Stannis in other ways. Jon's own military sense is pretty good. He just got too emotional about Rickon, and even that would have worked out okay, not for himself personally but for his army, if he had had a #2 in command who was a competent military leader. Stannis would've kept the army right where it was instead of commanding it to charge after Jon.

[Anisky]

I know other parts of the episode were objectively more impressive, but I loved those four minutes of Dany/Yara/Theon/Tyrion interacting. 

You can see why Dany would be delighted with them. She has these two people offering her exactly what she needs right now-- well, she's had that before, and it didn't turn out great. But then, as they explain what they want, she realizes that it's not some pompous would-be King who thinks he can walk all over her. It's two people who get it. They're offering exactly what she needs, and what they request in exchange for what they offer is entirely reasonable; more than that, she likes them, genuinely. They seem to be, as Anne Shirley would say, kindred spirits. Especially after getting Yara's word that the Ironborn will stop "reaving, roving, raiding, or raping", Dany can actually feel good about what she's giving in return for use of their ships; and someone you really like and get along with, who shares [some of] your values, who asks for reasonable things in exchange for valuable offers, is a pretty good neighbor to have. In some ways, having Yara rule the independent Iron Isles is likely to be at least as good for Dany as their being part of Dany's Seven Kingdoms while under the rule of Euron. 

I see the appeal of Dany/Yara, and the show certainly teased it, but what I'd really like to see is a real, strong friendship between Dany and Yara. You know all those extraneous scenes of Tyrion trying to get Missandei and Grey Work to drink and just hang out? What I really, really want is scenes of Dany and Yara drinking and talking and getting to be friends. (Tyrion and Theon can join in, too.) 

Also: Tyrion, I love you, but given the amount of haha-you-don't-have-a-dick jokes you make, you're being a hypocrite. 

I also really liked how Theon, immediately after clarifying that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon, added that, "I did things that were just as bad, or worse." 

Edited June 20, 2016 by Anisky

[TwistedandBored]

Best part of the episode, Ramsay died the same way his step-mother and newborn half-brother died. Karma!

[OhOkayWhat]

Sansa suffering all those years has consequences : she does NOT trust anyone. I think she is trying, but she is struggling with that and she can not do that yet. She even tells Jon something like "nobody can protect anyone".

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

Generally speaking, the writing for the North plot sucks big time and does/did no favors to Sansa and Jon. There are/were individual scenes that were well-written and poignant and even kick-ass, but most of the time, it all comes down to Jon and Sansa being written as idiots/sttuborn/naive (which they are not, at least not all the time and not at the same time) so their forces would be outnumbered and close to death until rescue came and Littlefinger could save the day and be back in the big game.

This is the problem with dumping Sansa in the Northern plot. They had to give her a good empowerment storyline because they had her raped last season and got a ton of backlash for that. So this season it was about Sansa being all wise and a player and dealing with her rape.  What then to do with Jon? He became a secondary character in his own plot and just walked around with a hangdog expression and no seemed to care that he was resurrected or that he broke his NW vows and is a deserter.  Since Sansa is already in the North, they have to bring LF and the Vale to her. So they have the North not supporting the Starks, Sansa holding back Vale info because she apparently knows more than Jon about battle strategy and Jon using bad battle strategy so that LF/Vale can save the day.

The North plot was what I was looking forward to in season 6 and it's been one of the worst parts of this season. Not as bad as Dorne but getting there. Jon's characterization is a mess, his resurrection plot was anti-climatic and the Northern houses suck. Sansa got a good resolution to her season 5 Jeyne Poole arc though so there's that. She got to kill Ramsay and all that. I don't see any of this happening in the books.

Edited June 20, 2016 by anamika

[jeansheridan]

3 hours ago, AGuyToo said:

This is a great question.

The game of thrones -- the business about these "noble" houses playing their little power games -- has always seemed a bit trivial to me because we all know that the REAL threat is north of the wall and marching south at a frightening pace.

Who is left in Westeros who understands this? Of the five kings, only Stannis understood -- but now he's dead. The wildlings, who understood the threat from personal experience, have been decimated fighting for Winterfell (RIP Wun-Wun). Other than the Mormont 62 (who might be dead as well), Jon and Sansa have no other army of their own. In fact, the only big army left in the north seems to be the knights of the Vale. Does Littlefinger really understand about the Night King?

Nobody in Kings Landing has a clue.

Daenarys and her dragons better get to Westeros pronto, or there might be nothing left for her to rule.

We were chatting about what armies are still relatively strong.  The Vale is still fresh, the Martell army is fresh, the Tyrell army has had time to recover, the Lannister army is probably still war-weary, but they're well seasoned.  I'm not sure what happens to the Tully soldiers and there seem to be a lot of Freys even if they aren't very good.

I realize convincing them is the problem, but once the zombie hordes come over that wall, I guess the Twins is their next best line of defense.  And by THAT time hopefully everyone is on board.  

[RedheadZombie]

3 hours ago, Ottis said:

Huh. While it was well done, I found the battle interminable. I FF'd through chunks of it. Just too much, going badly, for too long.  

Lots of catharsis, however. 

I'm going to re-watch soon because I FF'd as well, because (be warned those who "don't understand" those who are upset by animal suffering on this show) I couldn't handle what was happening to the horses.  I know IRL they weren't being killed, but the horses can definitely be hurt, and many have died on TV/movie sets.  The death of three horses on set led to the cancellation of HBO's Luck, but I think it was mostly the bad PR.

[OhOkayWhat]

The North story makes a lot of sense because every character deals with their past. And means they are not magically better persons or smarter or simply make them to trust each other. They are still struggling with their past. And we can even say that about the Houses, they also are dealing with their loses and victories in their own way, there is not a rule about how they all will behave, and the same we can say about people, that is simply human nature.

[forum4idiots]

dafuq...almost the season finale already?  NOOOOOOOOOO

damn, my girl sansa is all grown up.  luv that scene when she did a double take on ramsey being eaten. 

the battle was a bit predictable, but great nonetheless.  not sure what is going on with mellisandre, but i think i like this humbled version.

will the spoiler be arya returning to winterfell?  at thsi point in time, i really can't think of how they can end the season any more goosebump worthy the way it has been all season....oh wait.....maybe we branh will continue his vision of lyanna giving birth....to jon snow.

poor rickon....nothing more than a filler stark.  so substantial role other than to die for jon's sake.

btw....where the fuck was brienne during the battle, lol.  she sure manages to avoid many big battles that really count.

[Oscirus]

So what's Theon's point at this juncture? Yara could've done the negotiations by herself and as a matter of fact, he seemed to be a bit of a distraction. Storywise, I get it he's needed to connect the Starks to Dany but why does Yara feel that she needs him?

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

Yes, Yara was flirting and Dany was amused, but the most important thing to both of them was achieving their respective goals without conflict between them. As for sexy times, sure it could happen, but does it have to or need to?  Truthfully, I'm getting a little tired of this particular trope and Dany has never fallen into bed easily, so I'd be surprised if she did now because it's Yara flirting.  

It couldn't have been more telegraphed that Yara and Danaerys are going to sleep together, or, at least, have some fun. It is going to be interesting to see Daario's reaction to that. 

I found it ironic that Dany tells Yara that if she gets the Ironborn she cannot do things the old ways, i.e., pilaging and raping, which is exactly what the Dothraki do. I don't remember her telling them to stop being barbarians, but maybe we are supposed to think she did?

The very first scene between Tyrion and Dany was cringeworth but only upon a second view I could eventually nail what bothered me: it was poorly acted. I adore Peter Dinklage and we've seen Tyrion ashamed/wrong before, so it was not a matter of writing (which was good), but acting. He was awful there. It didn't help that Emilia did the old eybrow trick and was chanelling her inner mommy face. 

The masters are fucking idiots, and Greyworm bedheading the two cowards was too obvious, but I'm glad we are done with this aspect of the show and Meereen all together.

Happy Fathers' Day and all, and Tyrion is no Twyin and Theon and Yara want to be better that Papa Greyjoy. But then you have Tyrion telling Dany about Jamie and the Madking and the show is reminding us that Dany is becoming bloodthirsty like Daddy Dearest, and it becomes clearer and clearer that Danaerys doesn't get at all what really happened there. My two cents? She won't sit in that fucking throne.

I wish that instead of Bran's visions they would have someone tell Danaerys (and the audience) how things went down: Aerys going nuts, Rhaegar kiddnapping Lyanna, Aerys arresting Bradon and then killing him and Rickard. Girl needs a history lesson asap.

Eh, I would trade one GCI dragon for Ghost.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Raachel2008

[forum4idiots]

you know the funny thing about sansa and her storyline.......she is becoming what she hates most......ramsey, circe.......scary.  the product of irce and ramsey's influence.

[patchwork]

The thing is the writers could have had Sansa tell Jon about the Vale knights, off screen and only hinting at it if they really felt it had to be a surprise, and the Stark battle plan would have still fallen apart because Jon lost it after Ramsey's game of Run Stark Run.  

Maybe Sansa had some hope of rescuing Rickon until she was face to face with Ramsey again? 

Edited June 20, 2016 by patchwork

[Brn2bwild]

32 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Also, I was hoping Jon would be able to use his and Sansa's superior knowledge of their HOME, the way Osha snuck Rickon and Bran out in the first place, after hiding out in the crypts. If they knew of a secret entrance, for instance, or particular strengths or weaknesses of the keep. I would have found that more satisfying than another big-field battle, though it was pretty cool.

I agree.  They had all that time before the battle... they could have at least tried to send a team to smuggle Rickon out, a team that was willing to face grave consequences if they were caught.

[Unknown poster]

26 minutes ago, Anisky said:

I know other parts of the episode were objectively more impressive, but I loved those four minutes of Dany/Yara/Theon/Tyrion interacting. 

You can see why Dany would be delighted with them. She has these two people offering her exactly what she needs right now-- well, she's had that before, and it didn't turn out great. But then, as they explain what they want, she realizes that it's not some pompous would-be King who thinks he can walk all over her. It's two people who get it. They're offering exactly what she needs, and what they request in exchange for what they offer is entirely reasonable; more than that, she likes them, genuinely. They seem to be, as Anne Shirley would say, kindred spirits. Especially after getting Yara's word that the Ironborn will stop "reaving, roving, raiding, or raping", Dany can actually feel good about what she's giving in return for use of their ships; and someone you really like and get along with, who shares [some of] your values, who asks for reasonable things in exchange for valuable offers, is a pretty good neighbor to have. In some ways, having Yara rule the independent Iron Isles is likely to be at least as good for Dany as their being part of Dany's Seven Kingdoms while under the rule of Euron. 

I see the appeal of Dany/Yara, and the show certainly teased it, but what I'd really like to see is a real, strong friendship between Dany and Yara. You know all those extraneous scenes of Tyrion trying to get Missandei and Grey Work to drink and just hang out? What I really, really want is scenes of Dany and Yara drinking and talking and getting to be friends. (Tyrion and Theon can join in, too.) 

Also: Tyrion, I love you, but given the amount of haha-you-don't-have-a-dick jokes you make, you're being a hypocrite. 

I also really liked how Theon, immediately after clarifying that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon, added that, "I did things that were just as bad, or worse." 

I was kind of hoping Theon would have taken exception to being shit talked by a man who murdered his own father, and was convicted of murdering his nephew, about how bad of a person he is. Honestly, Tyrions mighty big for his britches considering he royally botched his only task in Meeren thus far.

[OhOkayWhat]

43 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Well, we agree on one of those points, anyway.

That is true.

[RedheadZombie]

I loved Tormund's inability to understand figurative speaking - you saw these demons?

I was proud of Theon when he held his head up and made eye contact with Dany and Tyrion.  I was proud that he took responsibility for his crimes, and didn't attempt to whitewash them.  And I like that Yara didn't intervene when things got uncomfortable, and attempt to speak for him.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but I almost died when Ramsay made the comment to Sansa, "I'm part of you now".  I thought he was implying she was pregnant.  I feel like there've been a couple of comments since Sansa escaped him that teases a pregnancy.  I'm hoping they're fake outs, but why bother, show?

4 hours ago, dizzyd said:

Yay, the babies are free! Dracarys, hell yeah! Fry those masters and Harpies, kids, its about time.

Loved Sansa preaching Ramsay 101 to Jon/

Where was Brienne in the battle?

I tried not to have my heart invested in Ramsay’s little game because the outcome was all too clear, even Sansa told Jon it was inevitable. I had to appreciate Ramsay’s organized battle strategy even though it was so difficult to watch, but it was such a pleasure to see him outplayed by his beautiful wife. I think Jon was acting on behalf of everyone of us in bashing Ramsay’s head to a pulp.  Finally, after 3 long seasons, we have Winterfell back.  I was hoping Ramsay would be Ghost’s dinner, but I guess he got his own medicine and I liked the smile on Sansa’s face as she walked away.

Regarding Brienne:  I say this only half in jest - a scene in which Brienne fights anywhere near Jon just reinforces Jon's diminutive stature.  It would almost be unintentionally funny.

[ulkis]

38 minutes ago, BloatedGuppy said:

Entertaining spectacle television. We're a far cry from Season 1 where the major battles took place off-screen. 

That said, it was also rather cheesy in parts, and super super SUPER fan servicey. The show was veritably mugging its audience for cheers. So...fun, but fun in a slightly tawdry "a show has no dignity" way.

I'm easy at this point. I'll take no dignity over the show going round in circles like it mostly did for seasons 4 and 5, heh. 

[glowbug]

If nothing else, the direction and visuals in this episode were stunning. There were some amazing battle shots in both Mereen and the North. The dragons were simply spectacular. The CGI for the dragons has improved so much even over last season. There were so many shots of Jon facing the impending army, Jon being suffocated by bodies, etc. that were visually stunning.

I'm surprised to say this but the Mereen plot was the best part of the episode for me. I never thought I'd say that and it's never been true before. I loved the dragons, Tyrion as an advisor, Grey Worm slicing the throats of those two masters who tried to throw the third under the bus. I even cheered when the Dothraki charged on the sons of the Harpies. The meeting between Dany/Tyrion and Theon/Yara was great too. I liked Tyrion confronting Theon, and Dany and Yara being impressed by each other. Prior to this episode I was beginning to wonder if Dany would end up being a villain in this story but I'm back to believing she'll be one of the good guys. While her first inclination was to go all scorched earth on masters and destroy their cities no matter the cost, she was able to be persuaded by Tyrion to take a more humane and measured approach. She also openly acknowledged that her father was a terrible king, and in making an alliance with the Iron Born she stipulated that they would have to give up raping and pillaging. I'm assuming she has ordered the Dothraki to do the same and since they're still following her I assume they have agreed. It seems strange for her to have these realizations and take these actions if the writers want her to be a villain.

The North is where I have most of my issues this episode. Both Sansa and Jon's characters were sacrificed to make certain plot points happen. Jon acted very foolishly and I hate that they have dumbed down and weakened his book character. There was absolutely no reason for Sansa not to tell Jon about the Vale army. That knowledge should have changed Jon's plans dramatically. Even if she didn't think Littlefinger would come through for her, Jon still had a right to know. So many lives could have been spared had Jon and the others been kept in the loop. I did like Sansa feeding Ramsay to his dogs, it was very fitting, but I disagree it was the Stark sort of thing to do. The Starks were all about the one making the order being the one to carry out the death. Sansa let Ramsay's hounds do the work for her. Speaking of which, poor hounds. Thanks to that asshat Ramsay, they're going to need to be put down because there's no way to rehabilitate them so we can add animal abuser and killer to Ramsay's list of evil deeds.

Ghost was suspiciously absent from this battle. I'm sure it was all about the CGI budget but there's no way Ghost wouldn't have been there from a narrative standpoint. I'm glad he's still alive, though I don't trust these writers to keep him that way. I was very sad about Wun Wun dying and Rickon. In the show, Rickon has really served no narrative purpose and I believe it would have been better had he been left out of the show completely. I hope he does have a purpose in the books.

Next week looks like a good episode too. I'm sorry that it will be the last before a ten month break. What will I ever do with myself?

[Oscirus]

14 minutes ago, Unknown poster said:

I was kind of hoping Theon would have taken exception to being shit talked by a man who murdered his own father, and was convicted of murdering his nephew, about how bad of a person he is. Honestly, Tyrions mighty big for his britches considering he royally botched his only task in Meeren thus far.

Theon is the one who needs a favor not Tyrion. If he wanted to be lippy, he could take his hundred ships and try to outrun Euron. As for royally botching his task, Mereen's economy was up, the dragons are released and weaponized and the citizens are worshipping Dany more then ever. I guess  his underestimating the master's greed was an admitted error, but I'd say his convincing Dany to save the ships they bought over more then made up for that error.

I don't get why they'd waste the Rickon actor's time if they weren't even going to have him speak.

So now that Euron's a goner, the Boltons are done and Cersei's pretty much all but finished, that all but makes the white walkers and the littlefingers the only villains left on this show.

I loved the new generation talk between Dany and crew. That was far more inspirational then her normal crap.

[jeansheridan]

Quote

BTW, they never explained Ramsay's rationale for deciding to meet Jon's army in the open field when it would've made much more sense to defend the attack from within the walls of Winterfell (with, perhaps, the cavalry making a flanking attack once they were engaged

Davos did in the strategy scene.  Ramsey rules by fear.  If he holed up in the castle it would make him look like a coward and he would lose more support.  That said, I am surprised he didn't take hostages from all the houses "loyal" to him to ensure their loyalty.

I will admit I was hoping for more guerrilla tactics from the Jon/Davos/Free Folk combo.  Being sneaky is their strength.  Being unpredictable like Dany would change the rules.  Jon is in some ways too traditional.  But Davos was a smuggler.  I hoped for more cunning.  

But that said, this was a gorgeous battle.  I don't like battles usually.  LOTR bored me.  Tedious.  But I cared about at least four of those characters and that was enough.  

And Ghost is alive!  That will make me happy all week.