Black Panther (2018)

[dusang]

On 3/13/2018 at 7:11 PM, HunterHunted said:

I love going through the Social Security Administration name data. As long as there are at least 3 or 5 (I can't remember the exact number) kids in a gender born in one year with a name, the SSA will publish the stats about how many kids have that name. I don't think Reneesme has ever fallen off the list after those Twilight films. Espn (aka ESPN) has never not been listed after jumping on in the mid 90s. There are always 7 or 8 boys named Espn every year. T'Challa and M'Baku seem completely reasonable in comparison.

Well, luckily Nakia and Okoye are already names. Although, Okoye is a surname. Okoye is an Igbo surname meaning someone born on market day. Nakia is an Arabic name meaning pure or faithful.

Oh, that deeply saddens me. 

[Dee]

Chadwick is hosting SNL (with musical guest Cardi B) April 7th.

[xaxat]

21 hours ago, anna0852 said:

So I just watched BP for the 3rd time. And it struck me at the end how similar this was to Civil War. You have T'Challa and W'Kabi, close friends turned against each other oh so quickly. With a group that usually lives in a harmony now fighting each other over with each believes to be the right thing to do. There's even dead parents thrown in! This gives me hope that T'Challa is going to play in getting Steve and Tony to reconcile. I have half baked fanfic bouncing around my head right now about the aftermath of the fight between the Border tribe and the Dora Milaje/Jabari. Such as T'Challa and the council determining that the River tribe will spend a certain amount of time in disgrace, before being forgiven. And that W'Kabi will do similar but ultimately they are all Wakandans and no one is a bad person here but simply that they must work together better in the future.

There was an initial debate about how right (minus his cold blooded murdering instincts) Killmonger was. 

I'm in the camp that W'Kabi was right to defend him when T'Challa returned. Like W'Kabi, Okoye initially was loyal to the throne despite knowing he was a despot. T'Challa's appearance was apparently unprecedented in the history of their succession system. W'Kabi and Okoye disagree, but neither of them are wrong. Killmonger had properly been accepted as the king of Wakanda. However, he apparently did not win the trial by combat. Lay on top of that W'Kabi's policy preferences coincide with Killmonger's (minus the indiscriminate killing part) and I totally understand his decision. 

One of the reasons I can't wait for the Blu Ray is that the politics of the movie, African Diaspora, the nature of a monarchy, are really well handled.

(And none of this post is driven by the fact that I really want to see Daniel Kaluuya in BP2)

[Dee]

I thought for all of BP's vaunted progressive stance in terms of gender equity, that it fell back on binaries in many of the smaller details.

First, while there were female War Dogs, and female Wakandan elders populated the King's inner circle and/or were leading disparate Wakandan Tribes; only one Tribe boasted a potential female warrior to participate in the Trial By Combat during T'Challa's Coronation.

Second, while there were female warriors within the Jabari Tribe's ranks, they were far outnumbered by male Jabari warriors, and were altogether absent during T'Challa's Coronation.

Also, there were seemingly no prominent female members of the Border Tribe; which made for a stark contrast with their Tribe vs. the Dora Milaje during the film's third act.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Dee

[Racj82]

5 hours ago, Dee said:

I thought for all of BP's vaunted progressive stance in terms of gender equity, that it fell back on binaries in many of the smaller details.

First, while there were female War Dogs, and female Wakandan elders populated the King's inner circle and/or were leading disparate Wakandan Tribes; only one Tribe boasted a potential female warrior to participate in the Trial By Combat during T'Challa's Coronation.

Second, while there were female warriors within the Jabari Tribe's ranks, they were far outnumbered by male Jabari warriors, and were altogether absent during T'Challa's Coronation.

Also, there were seemingly no prominent female members of the Border Tribe; which made for a stark contrast with their Tribe vs. the Dora Milaje during the film's third act.

Can we just enjoy how many things they got right? Especially involving female representation? The movie was overstuffed as it is. We had a tribe of female warriors vs a tribe of male warriors. Okay? The female voices at the head of tribes all had a strong voice. Why bother counting how many women contenders were up during the coronation? None of the tribes except for the war dogs wanted to challenge anyway. And what's more important are things like showing multiple women that could fight for the throne. They just choose not to. And Shuri is welcomed as the strong brilliant person she is that if anything, her age is the only strike against her. Not her gender.

[Dee]

No, we can't.

One can enjoy art while also being critical of it. It's not an either/or issue. Especially when much of the film's praise rests upon the treatment of its individual female characters.

Also, the all female 'tribe' wasn't a tribe. The Dora Milaje are the King's Royal Guard. And the War Dogs are Wakandan spies, thus also not a tribe. Those aren't minor issues.

The individual tribes themselves were heavily male leaning, and no, the female leaders of the respective tribes didn't not have strong voices. Yes, they were present when decisions were being made, but their contributions were negligible and they suffered from a severe lack of character development.

The number of female contenders at the coronation is important, because if the film can make it crystal clear the Dora Milaje are a force to be reckoned with, that Nakia is more than capable of taking care of herself, and explicitly state that Okoye is the best warrior in all of Wakanda, then it stands to reason that there should be equitable parity when it comes to non-Dora affiliated Wakandan warriors.

Same with the Jabari. If the film is going to include women as warriors in the tribe, especially in a tribe that is largely conservative in ideology, it should be as equals instead of a couple of tokens to avoid accusations of sexism.

[quangtran]

Quote

they were present when decisions were being made, but their contributions were negligible and they suffered from a severe lack of character development.

Why should any of the tribe leaders get any character develoment in the first place? These are D-list characters in an ensemble film.

[Dee]

The assertion made was that the women who headed the tribes had "strong voices," which they didn't.

[Joe]

That link doesn't work. Try this one.

[Joe]

Concept art! Click the artists' names to get to their respective sites. There's some good stuff on offer.

[Dee]

‘Black Panther’ Becomes Most Tweeted-About Movie Ever

Quote

After weeks of breaking box office records, “Black Panther” just made history again, as the most tweeted-about movie of all time.

The film, which was tweeted about more than 35 million times, overtook “Star Wars: The Force Awakens” and “Star Wars: The Last Jedi,” who hold the No. 2 and No. 3 spots, respectively, as the buzziest movies on Twitter. According to the site, the hashtags #BlackPanther, #WakandaForever, and #Wakanda led the posts, with the most-tweeted characters being Black Panther, Killmonger, and Shuri.

The most retweeted posts were led by Kendrick Lamar’s tweet about “Black Panther The Album,” which Lamar co-produced, announcing the soundtrack’s tracklist. Second was a viral video of two kids in a trench coat posing as one adult man, trying to sneak into a “Black Panther” screening by buying only one ticket. Third for retweets came from former First Lady Michelle Obama, who wrote, “Congrats to the entire #blackpanther team! Because of you, young people will finally see superheroes that look like them on the big screen. I loved this movie and I know it will inspire people of all backgrounds to dig deep and find the courage to be heroes of their own stories.”

Edited March 21, 2018 by Dee

[AimingforYoko]

Is It Safe Now to Admit That T'Challa Got His Ass Whooped On That Mountain Twice?

[Joe]

2 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Is It Safe Now to Admit That T'Challa Got His Ass Whooped On That Mountain Twice?

He won the first fight. It doesn't matter how much of a kicking you take during the fight, as long as you win at the end. And the second one wasn't properly resolved. So it isn't safe to admit anything of the sort.

[Perfect Xero]

First fight with M'Baku was standard back and forth movie hero fight stuff to have some drama with the hero showing his superior skill while not really wanting to kill/injure his opponent.

The fight with Killmonger though ... Usually in this sort of mid act movie fight the hero is shown to be more skilled and then the villain uses some dirty trick or plays on the hero's good nature to take the advantage. Erik just kicked his ass fair and square and threw him to what should have been his death. It was kind of stunning to see it play out like that. I think that T'Challa's head was supposed to be rattled because of the things he'd just learned about his father and uncle, but the movie doesn't really push that as an excuse though i do think you can see it in Chadwick's performance.

1 hour ago, Joe said:

He won the first fight. It doesn't matter how much of a kicking you take during the fight, as long as you win at the end. And the second one wasn't properly resolved. So it isn't safe to admit anything of the sort.

The only reason it wasn't properly resolved is that people interfered with the fight on T'Challa's behalf three different times! Zuri stopped Erik from striking a killing blow. M'Baku fished him out of the water and put him on ice to keep him alive a little longer, and then team royal family gave him the heart shaped herb (which itself is supposed to be illegal in the contest) to save his life.

[Dee]

One little character note I loved, is that after Erik wins his coronation battle with T'Challa, Okoye is the only individual not to give him a traditional Wakandan salute.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Dee

[JessePinkman]

Also T'Challa was fighting against Erik and 25 years of pent up unrelenting rage. And Erik is a killer, as far as we know T'Challa hasn't killed anyone. No way was he going to win that fight.

[Apprentice79]

7 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

Also T'Challa was fighting against Erik and 25 years of pent up unrelenting rage. And Erik is a killer, as far as we know T'Challa hasn't killed anyone. No way was he going to win that fight.

T'Challa, at one point, could have killed him, in the fight, but, hesitated. He also felt guilty about what his dad had done to his father.  He was rattled about learning some painful truths about a man that he loved and admired dearly. Had Erik, been somebody else, he would have killed him.  T'Challa could be just as ruthless as Erik, when he needs to be.  His determination to get Klaue is proof of that. He was also driven, by revenge, in civil war, to avenge his father's murder. I also think that Erik was counting on him being off, in order to have, the upper hand, in the fight. 

W'Kabi was disloyal to T'Challa.  I wonder how they will repair their relationship in the sequel, assuming he is even in it.  It made sense for him to support Erik as King, when T'Challa was presumed dead. Once he came back, he should have joined Okoye and the Dora milaje in defending T' Challa.  His bitter resentment kept him from doing that..

[Dee]

Given T'Challa's actions during Civil War, he should be more than understanding of W'Kabi's feelings.

[Lugal]

13 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I think that T'Challa's head was supposed to be rattled because of the things he'd just learned about his father and uncle, but the movie doesn't really push that as an excuse though i do think you can see it in Chadwick's performance.

And he just saw Zuri, his mentor, murdered in front of him.  Chadwick played it like he was just trying to get to Zuri and lost his focus on the fight while Eric just kept on pounding him.

[wanderingstar]

Quote

I think that T'Challa's head was supposed to be rattled because of the things he'd just learned about his father and uncle, but the movie doesn't really push that as an excuse though i do think you can see it in Chadwick's performance.

Was just about to say this. T'Challa was probably still feeling some type of way about what he'd learned about his father and Erik's origins. Still, Erik did legit beat him in that fight.

[Ohwell]

On 3/11/2018 at 5:19 PM, theredhead77 said:

I'm quoting myself because I'm very late to the party but I enjoyed the crap out of Black Panther. I rarely go to the theater twice for the same movie but I sure hope there is an extended cut upon Blu-Ray release.

I just saw it yesterday and I enjoyed the crap out of it, too.  I've never read the comics and I can't remember a lot of the characters' names, so I can't wait to see it again.  

[xaxat]

On 3/22/2018 at 12:35 AM, JessePinkman said:

Also T'Challa was fighting against Erik and 25 years of pent up unrelenting rage. And Erik is a killer,

One of the great things about the character is that his rage was laser focused. Not a generic "I'm going to kill him.."

His military career was planned to give him the skills need to beat T'Challa. He becomes the deadliest killer in US Special Operations. Picks up deep undercover and long term planning skills that allowed him to play Klaue like a fiddle to use him like bait. 

When he said "I waited all my life for this." Those words were backed up by his history. 

Great villain. 

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, as much as people have talked about Marvels “villain problem”, I think their last few (Toomes, Ego, Hela, and culminating with Eric) have been really compelling villains, all in different ways. 

Also, T'Challa won his first fight fair and square. And when he fought Eric, he was going through a LOT, so I cut him some slack. 

Edited March 24, 2018 by tennisgurl

[JustaPerson]

Basically:

[AimingforYoko]

Black Panther officially becomes highest-grossing superhero movie (domestically).

[Dee]

It's been forecast to happen for a couple of weeks now, and yet, it's still amazing.

[tennisgurl]

Wow, it’s almost like all those studios who’ve been saying that no one will see a superhero movie headed by a POC for years were actually stupid assholes! 

[Ohwell]

I did wish that some other actress other than Angela Bassett had been chosen to play her part.  Somehow she just didn't seem right for the role.

[ChelseaNH]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

it’s almost like all those studios who’ve been saying that no one will see a superhero movie headed by a POC for years were actually stupid assholes! 

Well, it does help that it's a really good movie.  Seriously, the pressure that Ryan Coogler must have been feeling.  And what about his next project?  It's not fair for him to be the standard-bearer.  Of course, if there were more black directors, he wouldn't have to be.

[Darlin]

2 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I did wish that some other actress other than Angela Bassett had been chosen to play her part.  Somehow she just didn't seem right for the role.

I'm not saying this particular actress would be better, but I am almost certain I read early on that Phylicia Rashad was cast for this movie.  Maybe I imagined this???

 

Now, I did read (for certain) that Amandla Stenberg  (sp?) auditioned for Shuri.  I'm glad they hired Letitia Wright because she is adorable and very infectious! 

[Apprentice79]

31 minutes ago, Darlin said:

I'm not saying this particular actress would be better, but I am almost certain I read early on that Phylicia Rashad was cast for this movie.  Maybe I imagined this???

 

Now, I did read (for certain) that Amandla Stenberg  (sp?) auditioned for Shuri.  I'm glad they hired Letitia Wright because she is adorable and very infectious! 

Chadwick told them that he wanted Letitia after her audition. He was impressed with her and they clicked. 

[Captain Carrot]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Wow, it’s almost like all those studios who’ve been saying that no one will see a superhero movie headed by a POC for years were actually stupid assholes! 

Well studio heads love trends, and hate admitting that a movie was bad. So, now they'll decide that Black Panther did well simply because movies with POC casts are the newest hot trend, and not because it was a really good movie. Then they'll make a bunch of crappy movies that follow that "trend", and say that the trend's over when said crappy movies bomb.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Captain Carrot

[Apprentice79]

34 minutes ago, Captain Carrot said:

Well studio heads love trends, and hate admitting that a movie was bad. So, now they'll decide that Black Panther did well simply because movies with POC casts are the newest hot trend, and not because it was a really good movie. Then they'll make a bunch of crappy movies that follow that "trend", and say that the trend's over when said crappy movies bomb.

 

I fear that may happen.. I hope that the same writers, producers and directors come back for Black Panther 2.   The cast should agree to do it as long as they have a great script, total freedom and a great budget, to produce their art without too much input from the powers that be.. The cast even said that they were shocked that they were even able to talk about certain themes in this  movie..

Edited March 25, 2018 by Apprentice79

[xaxat]

On 3/18/2018 at 6:36 PM, Dee said:

I thought for all of BP's vaunted progressive stance in terms of gender equity, that it fell back on binaries in many of the smaller details.

For all of its technical prowess, I don't see Wakanda as being progressive. It's institutions are driven entirely by tradition. It has an absolute monarch determined by physical submission or death.  The rule of the monarch is such that the only reason a clearly despotic king was prevented from starting a war against the world was because a fisherman didn't call it a day and head home early.

In that context, the cynic in me sees the Dora Milaje not as an expression of gender equity in terms of battle, but as group designed to siphon off any female warriors with the potential of developing the combat skills necessary to challenge for the throne. 

[Inquisitionist]

On 2/7/2018 at 11:51 AM, theredhead77 said:

Can someone who is not a comic book enthusiast / couldn't tell you the difference between DC and Marvel enjoy this movie walking in without any prep work?

As someone whose last superhero movie was Superman II in 1981, I can heartily say yes.  I saw it yesterday, not knowing much at all about the story or characters, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.  A few parts were a bit confusing and some of the action scenes went on longer than I needed, but I thought the characters and themes were very compelling.

 

On 2/16/2018 at 9:50 PM, Dee said:

MBJ is rightfully receiving a ton of kudos for his amazing star turn as Killmonger, but Chadwick definitely more than holds his own.

I remember seeing Chadwick Boseman for the first time as Jackie Robinson in 42 a few years ago, and wondering where he'd been hiding himself (he was already about 35 at that time).  Thought he was terrific here.  I've only seen Michael B. Jordan in The Wire, Parenthood, and Fruitvale Station, all when he was quite a bit younger, and it took me a while to recognize him here.  Loved Lupita's performance, and Sterling K. Brown was very impactful during his brief time on the screen.

[Dee]

1 hour ago, doram said:

But the fact that Killmonger had the authority to make that decision and it didn't cause an instant revolt is appalling. 

Unfortunately one never gets a sense of how the rest of Wakanda feels about its rapid change in monarchy.

Everything happens in such a vacuum sealed manner & in such a compressed time, it almost makes me wish Marvel had agreed to Coogler's 4 hour cut of the film. lol

[Apprentice79]

1 hour ago, Dee said:

Unfortunately one never gets a sense of how the rest of Wakanda feels about its rapid change in monarchy.

Everything happens in such a vacuum sealed manner & in such a compressed time, it almost makes me wish Marvel had agreed to Coogler's 4 hour cut of the film. lol

Ttue, 4 hours would be too long for a movie in a theater. Coogler could use his ideas for the sequels.

T'Challa knew that the longer that Erik remained on the throne, the more powerful and dangerous he would become for Wakandan society. Erik would have eventually destroyed Wakanda that he professed to love. He would start oppressing the common person. He would use Vibranium that was used to protect, advance and defend Wakanda, against the people. There could be restrictions on the use of Vibranium. He would know that Vibranium could be used by the people, to free themselves from his rule. There would be mass murders. Anybody suspected to be a T'Challa loyalist would be killed, imprisoned or exiled. Like all dictators, they don't love their people, they see them as pawns in their quest for absolute power.  He would have disbanded the council, probably murder them and install puppets in their place that would do his bidding without question. He would have also disbanded the Dora milaje and install his own people. 

Wakanda would have become a hellish place. Plus, Erik has powers and that would be enough to scare people into submission. There would always be a resistance to his rule, but, without the herb, to counter his powers. It would be futile and they would be sitting ducks.. The first thing that Erik did upon receiving his powers, was to burn the magical herbs, to insure that nobody would ever challenge him for the throne.  He did not even envision his own heir. He was going to be the last Black Panther in existence. It is ironic that this selfish act made T'Challa the absolute ruler of Wakanda. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Apprentice79

[JessePinkman]

9 hours ago, xaxat said:

In that context, the cynic in me sees the Dora Milaje not as an expression of gender equity in terms of battle, but as group designed to siphon off any female warriors with the potential of developing the combat skills necessary to challenge for the throne. 

I didn't see anything that implied that women couldn't fight for the throne. Maybe not seeing any women step up to plate was the implication that they couldn't? I don't know.

Unfortunately in the comics the Dora Milaje are (I can't believe they were created in the late 90s) both the king's personal guard and potential spouses.

[wanderingstar]

8 hours ago, Dee said:

Everything happens in such a vacuum sealed manner & in such a compressed time, it almost makes me wish Marvel had agreed to Coogler's 4 hour cut of the film. lol

I have thought this more than once since seeing the movie. There was definitely a lot more story to tell with all these characters.

[Kel Varnsen]

9 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

Unfortunately in the comics the Dora Milaje are (I can't believe they were created in the late 90s) both the king's personal guard and potential spouses.

But potential bride was only a ceremonial/tradition thing intended to unite the tribes of Wakanda. That way each tribe had a potential queen, even though in practice T'chala wasn't going to marry any of them, and I don't think he was supposed to get romantically involved with them.

[Dee]

Danai & Lupita are adorable!

[Katsullivan]

OK, another rewatch and I finally remembered to mention something that bugged me: 

The way Shuri just starts rattling off sensitive vibranium-intel to Ross when he wakes up in her lab. I understand that it was exposition and foreshadowing for when T'Challa disables the suits later, but it was badly contrived. Ross was CIA and there was already tension about him being in Wakanda in the first place, and the first thing Shuri does is spill secrets to him? And why did Ross need to recover in her lab? Why couldn't he have woken  up in a Wakanda hospital? Or even better, in a tent like Barnes's did at the end of the movie? 

[Perfect Xero]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

OK, another rewatch and I finally remembered to mention something that bugged me: 

The way Shuri just starts rattling off sensitive vibranium-intel to Ross when he wakes up in her lab. I understand that it was exposition and foreshadowing for when T'Challa disables the suits later, but it was badly contrived. Ross was CIA and there was already tension about him being in Wakanda in the first place, and the first thing Shuri does is spill secrets to him? And why did Ross need to recover in her lab? Why couldn't he have woken  up in a Wakanda hospital? Or even better, in a tent like Barnes's did at the end of the movie? 

 

Obviously he did take a bullet for one of theirs, and had apparently covered up T'Challa's involvement in Civil War, so there's that.

As to why they didn't stick him in a hospital or a tent in a village, I think that it's either that T'Challa didn't want it to become widespread knowledge that he'd broken tradition and brought in an outsider (CIA agent at that) or that he might not have entirely trusted anyone outside of his immediate circle to care for him (we're reminded that Wakandan tradition is that he should have been left to die), or a bit of both. So he brought him to Shuri's lab, which kept his arrival from getting out to the general population and put him in the care of the person T'Challa trusts the most.

I also don't think Ross was ever going to be allowed to leave Wakanda if he didn't somehow win T'Challa's trust, so the lab/palace was also supposed to serve as a very nice prison where T'Challa and his guards could keep an eye on him.

In the case of Shuri, I think it was a bit of ego more than anything. She's a teenage super genius who should be as famous to the world as Tony Stark, but the rest of the world thinks that Wakanda is just a poor third world nation. I just think that she couldn't resist the chance to show off and brag a little to one of those outsiders, even if it wasn't the tactically wisest thing to do.

[wingster55]

On second viewing, I really hope W'kabi comes back in the sequel. There's so much to mine through for his character. The O'koye/W'kabi relationship was given next to 0 focus but Daniel and Danai totally sold that last scene together, plus we didn't really see how T'Challa was processing being betrayed by his oldest friend. 

[Apprentice79]

1 hour ago, wingster55 said:

On second viewing, I really hope W'kabi comes back in the sequel. There's so much to mine through for his character. The O'koye/W'kabi relationship was given next to 0 focus but Daniel and Danai totally sold that last scene together, plus we didn't really see how T'Challa was processing being betrayed by his oldest friend. 

I love this movie and that was the weakest link to me.  W'Kabi siding with Erik against T'Challah seemed to come out of nowhere.  W'Kabi was an isolationist who was against letting refugees come into Wakanda, fearing that their problems would hurt his country.  His support of  Erik's crazy plans to give vibranium  to the world was inconsistent, to his characterization, at the beginning of the movie.   I do think that T'Challa will be merciful. I don't think that he would kill him.  I do think that the show should explore that relationship in the sequel.  We should also see more of Wakanda and the citizenry who live there.  I would love to see some wardogs also play a role in the sequel.   I assume that Wakanda would still keep their spies throughout the world, to make sure that no country would plot to steal their vibranium. 

Edited March 28, 2018 by Apprentice79

[stealinghome]

I FINALLY just saw the movie and thought it was very good--probably the best Marvel movie of the ones I've seen since Winter Soldier. That may be because it, like Winter Soldier, was a surprisingly thoughtful movie that tried to explore some truly deep themes and wrestle with important questions. I know it was already a bit long as movies go these days, but I wouldn't have minded another half-hour--it feels like it tried to pack so much in that a lot of it lost a bit of oomph, and there are some moments where you can practically see footage on the cutting-room floor. I bet the four-hour cut is really, really fantastic.

I was deeply impressed by Chadwick Boseman again here, after also liking him a lot in CACW. T'Challa isn't as flashy as many of the other characters, so you could imagine him getting lost among the ensemble with a less compelling actor, but Boseman held my attention whenever he was on-screen--there was just a barely-hidden intensity that made you have to watch him. There was clearly so much going on under the surface all the time, and when it came out (like when he barked "I AM YOUR KING" at Zuri), it came out HARD. And what star turns from Letitia Wright, Danai Gurira, Winston Duke, and Michael B. Jordan (though two of them were already stars, but you know what I mean) in particular--though the entire cast was very solid. Special mention to Sterling K. Brown, because Killmonger's dream vision really got me in the feels, when N'Jobu realizes what a monster his son has become and just starts crying.

If W'Kabi shows up again in a sequel, I hope Okoye has dumped him and T'Challa is a chilly acquaintance that is forced to work with W'Kabi because he's the head of one of the tribes. What a suuuuuuuuuuucky best friend. How could T'Challa ever trust him again when W'Kabi flipped allegiance from his BFF to a total psychopath after like 2 hours of knowing said psychopath, actively aided the psychopath in trying to take over the world, tried to kill T'Challa, and only backed down because apparently fighting his lover was a bridge too far even for him?? I did die a little when the rhino licked Okoye's face though. That was such a cute moment! Overall the humor was really on point in the movie. Shuri had some great one-liners but I think my favorite was Okoye's "When she wants to." Heh.

I would watch three hours of Shuri and Okoye making fun of T'Challa. I loved the friend!OTP between T'Challa and Okoye so much. And I would watch to death a Shuri/Okoye/Nakia/Ramonda spinoff. The ladies in this movie were awesome, and this movie just put the rest of the MCU on blast for how it treats its female characters.

I had to laugh that they gave Ross a personality transplant from CACW. I see what you did there, Marvel.

Really great movie that I suspect is one of those that you can rewatch to death and never tire of, and in fact you'll find new things in it constantly.

[Dee]

45 minutes ago, Apprentice79 said:

 W'Kabi was an isolationist who was against letting refugees come into Wakanda, fearing that their problems would hurt his country.  His support of  Erik's crazy plans to give vibranium  to the world was inconsistent, to his characterization, at the beginning of the movie. 

W'Kabi wasn't an isolationist. He was against Wakanda taking on refugees, but wasn't against venturing into the world with his tribesmen to "clean up the world."

So, in that regard, his and Erik's ideologies aren't necessarily dissimilar. However, their ethics, methods and temperaments are worlds apart.

In a lot of ways, W'Kabi is very much like Civil War-era T'Challa, except W'Kabi is driven by decades of bitter regret vs. T'Challa's reactionary anger.

Both were so blinded by their own sense of loss, it drove them to be extremely reckless in their destructive quests for vengeance; but they were both also noble enough to stop themselves before going too far, and equipped with enough humility to own their respective mistakes. 

[Apprentice79]

1 minute ago, Dee said:

W'Kabi wasn't an isolationist. He was against Wakanda taking on refugees, but wasn't against venturing into the world with his tribesmen to "clean up the world."

So, in that regard, his and Erik's ideologies aren't necessarily dissimilar. However, their ethics, methods and temperaments are worlds apart.

In a lot of ways, W'Kabi is very much like Civil War-era T'Challa, except W'Kabi is driven by decades of bitter regret vs. T'Challa's reactionary anger.

Both were so blinded by their own sense of loss, it drove them to be extremely reckless in their destructive quests for vengeance; but they were both also noble enough to stop themselves before going too far, and equipped with enough humility to own their respective mistakes. 

I get what you are saying, but, his betrayal of T'Challa was beyond the pale. Okoye and the other Dora Milaje supported Erik, albeit, reluctantly, but, as soon as, their king, came back. They sided with him.  One even died defending T'Challa.  W'Kabi did not waver at all, in his attempts, to kill T'Challa.   T'Challa pleaded with him to stop his men from their attacks. He continued anyway. 

[Dee]

W'Kabi's actions really weren't beyond the pale. W'Kabi wasn't as wedded to tradition as Okoye, yet was every bit as dedicated to the service of his country as Okoye.

She serves Erik, but does not support him. She colludes with Nakia, however briefly, behind Erik's back and stages a revolt on Erik as soon as her preferred King returns. W'Kabi does waver, briefly, at T'Challa's return, but he ultimately chooses to support the sitting King.

And I seem to recall many people similarly telling T'Challa to heed the rule of law in Civil War, yet he doggedly tried to murder an innocent man until he was confronted with incontrovertible proof of Barnes innocence.

[benteen]

W'Kabi's relationship with Okoye and his character in general feels very much like they were added in reshoots.  It really doesn't flow well with the rest of the movie.