S06.E04: Book of the Stranger

[screamin]

5 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

The walk of atonement isn't done by everyone to atone for their sinful ways.  The walk of atonement is forced upon those who will not confess and capitulate to the High Sparrow's commands.

Not to mention, Lancel is male, on this show that means he would be humiliated other ways if he were being forced to atone.

Didn't we see the High Septon do the same walk?

[Tikichick]

16 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Hot Pie

It's not just a recipe for kidney pie, but a theory of government.

Didn't we lose Hot Pie?  I thought he was murdered at the inn he was so happy to be working at?  (In book world.  Not sure the show has had time to keep up with Hot Pie unfortunately.)

[dragonsbite]

I really can't figure out Littlefinger's end game. He had to know that he was leaving Sansa with monsters when he convinced her to marry Ramsay. So, is he mobilizing the Vale against the Boltons on behalf of the Lannisters? Or is he hoping to cause enough chaos that he'll be "last man standing" and grab all the power for himself? I can see that he would attempt to take Sansa as a wife (he would be a better alternative than, say, Ramsay). But I don't see his being satisfied as Lord of Winterfell or the North. It's too uncivilized for him.

[Tikichick]

10 minutes ago, screamin said:

Didn't we see the High Septon do the same walk?

Yes, he did.  No doubt that was largely so the people would be ready to throw over the High Septon and accept the High Sparrow had the right to take authority over the sept and the faithful.  The walk of atonement seems to be used as a mechanism to destroy the powerful in front of the masses, thus transferring more power to the High Sparrow.

Lancel also notably served the High Septon by providing the evidence against Cersei as a mark of his commitment to changing his ways.

[Knuckles]

 "But this was not vigilante justice or even self-defense. It was a power grab that involved burning people alive."

Sorry, I respectfully disagree. It was self-defense...she is a small woman, kept captive by 40 or 50 men who had just outlined their plans to tear her apart by gang raping her to death...an apparent victim killing a horde of experienced rapists before they can annihilate her is self defense by any measure. And, since gang rape is part of Dothraki culture, as she would know, it qualifies a justice served. 

Save yourself...first rule of survival. That the Dothraki will now presumably follow her, as they follow strength, is a feature, not a bug. They will volunteer, as it aligns with their culture. Can't say fairer than that.

 

As for the argument that the Sparrow and his armed mob of enforcers is somehow better than the aristos...I disagree. He offers ritual humiliation for selected members of the ruling class...based on their gender...with special attention to degrading women and gay men...all designed to appeal to the mob. This is justice? He has no plan for establishing some sort of fairer future governance...now, it will all be decided by his hand-picked septas and armed men. He has demonstrated an appetite for torture. The man is alive with resentment and envy...his little backstory of emulating the rich has been neatly edited to demonstrate his moment of "clarity"...the moment he realized he could harness the mob to his own ends.

It's worth remembering that we are looking at this with modern eyes...but medieval efforts to empower the peasants all ended, in Barbara Tuchman's phrase ,with "corpses hanging from the trees". Whether the Peasants Revolt in England or the Jacquerie in France, the illiterate and underfed, no matter how numerous, were no match for well-armed and paid armies sent to destroy them. What progress was made on their behalf was halting and incremental, and would take several centuries. No overnight coups, no revolutionary changes ever happened. The Sparrow is playing for time with his followers' lives...he thinks that his hostages will keep armies at bay, while he consolidates his power. History says it won't work, and a slaughter is on the agenda, as Olenna noted. 

[GrailKing]

As far as I was reading across the net, seems everyone think the men were weak, to me, Theon's weakness was trying to do something he wasn't trained to do, namely take Winterfell and hold it and he paid dearly for it, and survived it yet he still is recovering, at this point in this scene, he's not weak but he's in a sort of purgatory and for most of that scene his sister became Balon, to me everything before this scene she showed to be strong, but when her brother needed support she acted like her father until Theon said he support her for the sea throne, it was from the comfort of Pyke that she talked from strength, yet she gave up on her brother thinking him weak and dead because Ramsey totally broke him and then she ran when Ramsey brought his girls out ( I don't blame her self preservation is a big factor in human function, just as it was for Theon); as Davos said to Jon when he said he failed "good you failed now go out and fail again" she didn't, but Theon and Sansa did, doesn't make him weak to me, just damaged.

Margery is strong in a sense, but she had nothing compared to her brother in the form of punishment; withholding of water, food, having to put up with hearing the Westeros version of the bible and as Queen she wasn't physically harmed, Loras's crimes were greater; sex with men, and lying about it big crimes in that world and he was definitely abused, I wonder how Margery would do if she faced what Loras or Sansa had faced.

Brienne- yeah in your face strong, but not always wise on when to show it, and strong enough just to sit and listen at times, but she still treated Pod poorly for a bit, I like the Brienne, Tormond and Edd interaction .

Danny came off strong, the Khals were douches, physical strong but weak minds, she gave a plan to Jorah and Dario and had help from the widowed Kahleesi and set the plan in motion, though I think it would have been enough to burn one Khal and let the others watch from outside as she emerged from the fire alone, yes even with the hair she could have used those Khals as generals.

Sansa and Jon, I'm tickled pink she became assertive, but unlike Jon she had a few weeks to heal and ponder, she had Brienne to talk to and Pod; Jon had no such luxury and still is in a PTSD state I wouldn't call him weak at all, do we call soldiers weak because of what they seen or done, how about the three woman in Chicago one escaped and call the authorities, the other two stayed in the house did we call them weak?

Jon like Sansa did not start to get his fight back until he got information about family via the letter, just like Sansa did when she found out about her brothers from Theon and about Jon from Ramsey and once she was safe she got more on Arya via Brienne nice parallel.

Tthe one thing Sansa and Jon have over the others is they been where the other has been ( well Sansa didn't see darkness) and can now relate to each other and they both have more family to look for.

After this episode, I think Sansa is going to task Brienne with two jobs, try and find Arya, but more importantly try and get her Uncle BF Tully for support, and through the miracle of LF's teleporter know an Arryn army is at hand.

Hope she has a plan for him.

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

And?  It's not like the Tyrells grow it.  They take it from their peasants and distribute it as they please for their political advantage; they starved the city in Season 2, then brought food to feed it to gain popularity.

My point was that by antagonizing the Tyrells over such trivial matters is directly threatening the food supply of the common people he supposedly cares about. Why antagonize the Tyrells instead of working with them as Olenna seemed open to? 

47 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

cause he's a tertiary character at best, we don't hear about him taking a shit either but we have to presume he does.

and how do you know she enjoys it? how do you know she's not just doing her duty to punish the sinners?

We saw the walk of the previous High Septon so I feel like if Lancel had suffered some sort of similar punishment then we should have been told.

As for the Septa getting enjoyment out of her duties, I thought the High Sparrow was acknowledging how overzealous she is when it comes to her job. The facial expressions are enough for me to feel that she very much enjoys her job.

[Tikichick]

Littlefinger might be in for a surprise if Sansa decides to go behind his back and use her influence with Robyn to undercut Littlefinger's control and assert herself as the commanding force in Robyn's life -- including his forces and those of his bannermen.  Based on Royce's displeasure with Littlefinger this week, the bannermen might be more inclined to follow the Stark command anyway.  Sansa can also intervene in any Tully plans Littlefinger might have, as a rightful member of that family tree as well.

Sansa seems in the mood to take names and appears to be all out of lollipops.

[Umbelina]

I really wish that when they had Cersei in that cell they would have starved her, but in a very specific way.  Chain her up and bring her food, let her smell it, nearly touch it, but then bring in some dogs and give it to the dogs.  Since she ordered her masses of  leftover food given to the dogs instead of the starving masses of people, I would have pretty much loved that.

If I must have torture every single episode/page, I'd like to get some satisfaction  from it.

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, taurusrose said:

So, Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion.  He didn't force himself on her or try to make her situation any worse than it was.  He didn't want to marry her either.  Tyrion was FORCED to marry her as well.  But would it have killed her to be cordial upon seeing his effort on her behalf?  I remember her always looking at him like she was looking at a pile of shit.  I'm not saying she had to kow tow to him, I'm saying she could have simply been less of a snotty bitch.  

Then you remember wrongly.  She was goofing around with him in episode 310 before her family's murders were reported, and helped him out in 402.

Regardless, Sansa is a hostage and Tyrion is one of her captors (yes, he bore her no ill-will, but that just makes him her nicest jailer), and one of the leaders of the war against her family.  She didn't owe him anything whatsoever.

Edited May 17, 2016 by SeanC

[stillshimpy]

Truly, it's an absurd notion that Sansa owed Tyrion fuck-over-all because he was -- Jeebus, the the things this story warrants saying-- decent enough to take a pass on raping her after his family was giddily responsible for the slaughter of most of hers does not earn him anything. That women of any age are ever viewed as owing men a pleasant demeanor for the great gift of failing to grossly mistreat them is a gift brought to us by ye olde shop of Strange double standards.  Hey , she failed to slice any of his bits and/or parts off, therefore he owes her? That would seemingly be the reverse standard. Good grief.  

 

If if she looked at him like he was a "pile of shit" it was hardly surprising or without reason. She owes him no debt of gratitude for failing to be heinous. Also, beyond all that she was pleasant to him . The only exception was after the Red Wedding....and that can't be surprising. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, taurusrose said:

So, Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion.  He didn't force himself on her or try to make her situation any worse than it was.  He didn't want to marry her either.  Tyrion was FORCED to marry her as well.  But would it have killed her to be cordial upon seeing his effort on her behalf?  I remember her always looking at him like she was looking at a pile of shit.  I'm not saying she had to kow tow to him, I'm saying she could have simply been less of a snotty bitch.  

Other posters have pointed out that Sansa didn't owe Tyrion anything, but this statement isn't even true in the context of the series. Through most of Season 2 and Season 3, she was wary but polite. In 3x10, they were quite friendly with each other until Sansa got news of the RW, and I think we can cut her some slack for being upset with Tyrion in 3x10 and 4x01 given that she'd received news of her mother and brother being murdered and their bodies mutilated thanks to Tyrion's family. It's spelled out that Sansa circa 4x01 is horribly depressed--much is made of Sansa refusing to eat anything, and Sansa tells Tyrion that she's unable to sleep because she's haunted by her mother and brother's deaths--so again, I think we can cut her some slack for not pasting a smile on for a member of the family that just arranged for the murder of her mother and brother. She was upset at Tyrion in 4x01 for trying to offer consolation in an inconsolable situation and refusing to let her grieve in peace, but that's a more than understandable reaction given the circumstances; her frustration was far from snotty bitchiness, but even if she had been a snotty bitch, it would have been justified given the circumstances.

Also, in 4x02 she was the only one of the Purple Wedding guests to move a muscle to help Tyrion by retrieving the cup when Joffrey was humiliating him. Not even sweet-tempered Tommen lifted a finger. That's about as far from "snotty bitch" as you get.

[DigitalCount]

I have to say the accusations of the High Sparrow being a hypocrite baffle me.

A dad has two sons, Allen and Bort. Allen steals $100 from Dad's wallet, while Bort smokes some of Dad's cigarettes. Feeling bad later, Allen comes to Dad and says, "Hey Dad, I just need to tell you I stole $100 from your wallet. I know it was wrong, and I'm sorry. Here's $50, and I'd like to do some work to make up the rest of it."

Dad allows this. Dad then finds out that some of his cigarettes are missing, and there is a cigarette butt around where Dad last saw Bort in the backyard. Suspicious, Dad asks Bort if he smoked the cigarettes. Bort vehemently denies it. Dad's neighbor Nora tells Dad that she saw Bort smoking cigarettes in the backyard. Dad again asks Bort if he smoked the cigarettes and Bort continues to deny it. Even when Bort's clothes smell of smoke, Bort continues to maintain his innocence.

Thanks to the evidence, Dad is pretty sure that Bort smoked his cigarettes, and Bort did in fact smoke them. Does it make Dad a hypocrite to ground Bort even though he didn't ground Allen? I'd say the fact that Allen came to Dad, confessed his wrong, and tried to make it right count in Allen's favor and account for the difference in treatment between Dad's sons. Bort showed no repentance and didn't ask for forgiveness, because he claimed not to have done anything wrong. So Dad punished Bort for this.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, dragonsbite said:

I really can't figure out Littlefinger's end game. He had to know that he was leaving Sansa with monsters when he convinced her to marry Ramsay. So, is he mobilizing the Vale against the Boltons on behalf of the Lannisters? Or is he hoping to cause enough chaos that he'll be "last man standing" and grab all the power for himself? I can see that he would attempt to take Sansa as a wife (he would be a better alternative than, say, Ramsay). But I don't see his being satisfied as Lord of Winterfell or the North. It's too uncivilized for him.

I think Littlefingers plans are fluid, his actions adapt, even though he is pretty good at both provoking and anticipating the moves of others.

1 hour ago, Knuckles said:

 

As for the argument that the Sparrow and his armed mob of enforcers is somehow better than the aristos...I disagree. He offers ritual humiliation for selected members of the ruling class...based on their gender...with special attention to degrading women and gay men...all designed to appeal to the mob. This is justice? He has no plan for establishing some sort of fairer future governance...now, it will all be decided by his hand-picked septas and armed men. He has demonstrated an appetite for torture. The man is alive with resentment and envy...his little backstory of emulating the rich has been neatly edited to demonstrate his moment of "clarity"...the moment he realized he could harness the mob to his own ends.

It's worth remembering that we are looking at this with modern eyes...but medieval efforts to empower the peasants all ended, in Barbara Tuchman's phrase ,with "corpses hanging from the trees". Whether the Peasants Revolt in England or the Jacquerie in France, the illiterate and underfed, no matter how numerous, were no match for well-armed and paid armies sent to destroy them. What progress was made on their behalf was halting and incremental, and would take several centuries. No overnight coups, no revolutionary changes ever happened. The Sparrow is playing for time with his followers' lives...he thinks that his hostages will keep armies at bay, while he consolidates his power. History says it won't work, and a slaughter is on the agenda, as Olenna noted. 

How is this worse than what the "Noble" families and rulers have done to them?  One house flays people, and even has it as their sigil.  The Lannisters deliberately murder Kings, and babies, and burn fields of crops and entire villages to the ground after raping the citizens.  The Tyrells not only helped start this war, but withheld food, starving out the poor, because the rich could still eat.  The Iron Island leaders send people steal and rape. Pick one of the Aristocratic families, they are all crap, except perhaps Ned Stark, who was not deliberately crappy, just too stupid to protect not only his people but his own family.  The Targs have a long history of horrific behavior, and of course, their inbred madness. 

WINTER is coming, and have anyone of them done one damn thing about it?  Nope.  Well, they have made things worse, great leaders there.

I do like some people on the canvas though, in spite of the fact that a very few come from a Noble house.  I like those monks on the Island.  I liked the Hound, or what he became (hope we see him soon.)  I like Jon and Tyrion actually trying to accomplish something good, instead of their own power.  I liked Dany freeing the slaves.

Oh!  I forgot, I wanted to mention everyone saying Meereen (that land of sucking quicksand for story) was making Tyrion boring.  Ha!  Imagine if they were giving us Tyrion's book story!  "Where do whores go?"

Edited May 17, 2016 by Umbelina

[Pogojoco]

The whole Jonsa reunion was so lovely. Them looking at each other in wonder and then embracing. Damn it, show.

 

What exactly was the point of bringing Osha back? What a waste. She could've been used as a way to infiltrate Ramsey camp, kind of like how Ramsay did to Theon. Or something. Instead, it was scene 10 000 of Ramsay being awful, which showed us nothing new or interesting. I don't even hate Iwan Rheon, I just hate the producers obsession with the infallibility of this character. It's lazy and feels like a villainous place holder until the White Walkers get cooking. 

They didn't even use his best line in the Pink Letter- "Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it." The eyeballs was ok, heart eating is better. 

[glowbug]

I'm late to the thread but really needed some time to process after last night's episode.

Sansa's reunion with Jon was pure perfection. Those two actors have great chemistry together and they were both able to convey even without words the joy and relief in seeing each other again. The hug and the conversation they had regarding their past was lovely, two of the best moments of the season thus far. But I found that it left me wanting and not because I want more from Jon and Sansa because, again, their reunion was better than I hoped for, but because it made me long for a reunion between Jon and Arya and/or Arya and Sansa even more than before. Those two relationships were the most developed of all the Stark siblings despite the fact that Jon and Arya shared very little screen/page time together.

This was also a case where I can see how things are going to play out very differently in the books. I can't see Book Jon after his resurrection completely give up on fighting the Others and/or for the North. I'm convinced he'll leave the Night's Watch but I don't think he'll abandon his causes. Maybe I'll eat my words if book six ever comes out but I just don't see it happening. I was a little disappointed by Jon's attitude to be honest, although it did give Sansa some good material. I like this new assertive Sansa. The scene with Tormund and Brienne was hilarious, although I can't ship them because  I haven't given up on Jamie/Brienne, the only ship I'm sailing in this story. Granted, show Jamie has been a major disappointment, IMO, but until I've completely given up on him I can't give up on that ship.

There's not much to say about King's Landing except that I was pleasantly surprised that Margery hasn't been taken in by the High Sparrow and it was great to see her reunite with her brother, and be strong for him. Also, Olenna and Cersei on the same side is a dangerous alliance. I hope this plot moves along quickly though.

Mereen continues to bore me. I'm having trouble seeing the significance of it except to keep Tyrion in the story. Dany is coming with a hoard of Dothraki, which will make everything that's happening there completely irrelevant. Maybe the Red Priestess next week will spice things up.

I was surprised by how Dany's story with the Dothraki turned out. Like many others I thought that it would be Drogon that would convince the Dothraki to follow her, especially given that scene in the promos with him flying overhead. I'm glad they went in a different direction. It was an interesting contrast between her and Jon and how they handled being viewed as a God. An understandable difference since she was raised to believe that her family was the rightful rulers of Westeros and that their blood was superior while Jon was raised to think of himself as a bastard who deserved very little and was less than his peers. I can see how he'd be uncomfortable with the idea of being a God while Dany would relish in it given their upbringings. I haven't been much for the theory that Dany turns out to be a villain in this story but this contrast made me consider it a little more seriously. 

[Eyes High]

I thought a pretty clear line was drawn between Dany's disgust at the khals' violent misogynist bullshit, as embodied not only by the rules about khaleesis having to join the dosh khaleen after the death of their khals (and being punished severely if they disobey) and the khals' fondness for raping slaves, but also by the tale of the Lhazareen widow whose khal broke her ribs after she bore him a daughter, and her decision to murder them all. Dany's comment about it being a pity that the khal hadn't died sooner was a tipoff that she'd already made her mind up to kill all of them and that she just hadn't yet decided on a method. If she ever harboured any doubts about eliminating the khals, I'm guessing that little anecdote wiped it out.

I've seen concern with Dany's readiness to take over the dothraki by murdering the khal as reflecting "mad king"-type "entitlement" and "villainy," but I guess it's hard for me to see Dany murdering a bunch of fuckhead rapists as any sort of villainy. If anybody was the "villain" in this scenario, it was the khals who used rape and violence to keep women in line and who rape, injure and abuse women who break their bullshit rules or who are unfortunate enough to stumble across their path. (Before it was discovered that Dany was a khaleesi, Moro was ready to rape her for the horrible crime of being a defenseless pretty girl.) There's nothing villainous about giving those assholes a death by burning and taking the power they maintained through abusing others from them; given how hilarious they found the prospect of subjecting Dany to gang rape, death by burning is probably better than they deserved.

As khaleesi to Drogo, Dany could try to influence the dothraki's raping and abusing women indirectly. As a leader of the dothraki in her own right, she can try to lead by example and instill cultural change...and although trying to change a culture overnight hasn't gone very well in Slavers' Bay, I can't blame her for concluding that the khals were beyond educating, and the only way to eliminate them as an obstacle was to kill them. The dothraki respect strength, so the only way to get the dothraki to respect her opinions about the evils of being rapist fuckheads is to demonstrate that she's the strongest. Done.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Eyes High

[MarySNJ]

7 hours ago, Gertrude said:

ETA: Not sure what happened to the post I was responding to. 

I actually think this is more immediate and pragmatic in a way. The Way of the Dothraki is to rule by strength. Killing another Khal is one way to become a Khal. That's part of their culture. So, while long term she may want to dismantle the Dothraki reliance on the slave trade, she wants an army to deal with her problems in Mereen and her eventual reconquest of Westeros. But more immediately, she was in a precarious situation and had to figure out how to show her strength to get herself out of it. Running away wouldn't do it. She had to strike in a way that would cause the Dothraki to see her as the Khal of Khals. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by MarySNJ

[Avaleigh]

26 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

I have to say the accusations of the High Sparrow being a hypocrite baffle me.

A dad has two sons, Allen and Bort. Allen steals $100 from Dad's wallet, while Bort smokes some of Dad's cigarettes. Feeling bad later, Allen comes to Dad and says, "Hey Dad, I just need to tell you I stole $100 from your wallet. I know it was wrong, and I'm sorry. Here's $50, and I'd like to do some work to make up the rest of it."

Dad allows this. Dad then finds out that some of his cigarettes are missing, and there is a cigarette butt around where Dad last saw Bort in the backyard. Suspicious, Dad asks Bort if he smoked the cigarettes. Bort vehemently denies it. Dad's neighbor Nora tells Dad that she saw Bort smoking cigarettes in the backyard. Dad again asks Bort if he smoked the cigarettes and Bort continues to deny it. Even when Bort's clothes smell of smoke, Bort continues to maintain his innocence.

Thanks to the evidence, Dad is pretty sure that Bort smoked his cigarettes, and Bort did in fact smoke them. Does it make Dad a hypocrite to ground Bort even though he didn't ground Allen? I'd say the fact that Allen came to Dad, confessed his wrong, and tried to make it right count in Allen's favor and account for the difference in treatment between Dad's sons. Bort showed no repentance and didn't ask for forgiveness, because he claimed not to have done anything wrong. So Dad punished Bort for this.

The reason this analogy doesn't work for me is because Lancel and Margaery's alleged crimes aren't nearly as severe as Lancel's and haven't even been proven.

It's like one guy confesses to the Pope that he helped kill a king and committed treason. The Pope likes that the guy was honest so he decides to immediately give the guy a job where he'll have power and authority and will be permitted to commit acts of violence on the people in the city.

The other two people are both accused of sins by the Pope but the people being accused deny it. In your cigarette analogy there is strong evidence that the son is guilty. In the case against the first person, they have the word of a prostitute (which wouldn't be worth mentioning if we didn't specifically know the way the High Sparrow sees prostitutes as some of the ultimate sinners in the eyes of the Faith) and that's enough to keep the guy imprisoned and tortured indefinitely while the guy who confesses to murder gets to go around being a violent thug in the name of the Faith. How is that just or at all reasonable? Why is Oliver more believable than Loras? There are numerous ways he could have found out about the birthmark.

[gwhh]

I guess they don't have fire codes in the holy city of the Dothraki.   Because that building went right up.

I loved how Danny resuming was talking about how neither of them could handle her in the bedroom.  

Sansa growing a big set of courage and taking back the stark home. With or without Jon help. 

 

And how crazy is the stark cousin Robin Aryan?  My guess is as crazy as they come. Plus little finger is giving him advice. He going to have a very high body count before he goes. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by gwhh

[morgankobi]

"My son's name is also Bort."

[gwhh]

3 minutes ago, morgankobi said:

"My son's name is also Bort."

Huh?  What does that mean?  

[huahaha]

2 hours ago, Knuckles said:

Sorry, I respectfully disagree. It was self-defense...she is a small woman, kept captive by 40 or 50 men who had just outlined their plans to tear her apart by gang raping her to death...an apparent victim killing a horde of experienced rapists before they can annihilate her is self defense by any measure. And, since gang rape is part of Dothraki culture, as she would know, it qualifies a justice served. 

Save yourself...first rule of survival. That the Dothraki will now presumably follow her, as they follow strength, is a feature, not a bug. They will volunteer, as it aligns with their culture. Can't say fairer than that.

I guess we remember the episode differently. The Khals were saying they wouldn't turn Dany over to the slavers, even for thousands of horses. The implication seemed to be that they would do the honorable thing and place her with the other widows. The rape talk came after she refused and started insulting them.

And again, I'm not arguing in favor of the Dothraki way of life. The Khals are also villains. I guess I just don't see how going in and burning even bad people alive to get yourself power makes someone a hero.

[Chris24601]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

It would be fun to have a poll about now.  I hate starting thread though, and have never made a poll.  "Who do you want to win the Game of Thrones?"

The Game of Thrones comes to an end via the dual invasions by Dany's Dothraki hordes and dragons in the South and the Armies of the Dead in the North. They meet in battle and destroy each other.

In the aftermath, Jon and Sansa take the throne of Winterfell by popular assent of the survivors for their role in leading everyone through the cataclysm to safety inside Winterfell's walls. They and their rag tag band of misfit followers end up being the ones to rebuild civilization.

[Knuckles]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

How is this worse than what the "Noble" families and rulers have done to them? 

How is the Sparrow worse? He's not...he's simply a different take on the same old, same old. He has his armed garrison to protect him, his noble hostages to hold the Lannisters and Tyrells at bay for the moment, and the favor of the mob. For now. When the game shifts, the poor will be mowed down like grass in summer. Better, no. And I think that was my point..his power grab uses a different methodology than the ruling houses, but the aim is the same. Dany wants to break the wheel, so does the Sparrow. Dany wants the throne because she believes in entitlement...Sparrow wants power because he can see how to wrest it from the current holders. As for any decent governance, or protection for the common people...that's not on the current agenda.The Hound had it right...there is no safe place in Westeros. 

As for the White Walkers and the army of the dead...if even the northernmost house, the Umbers are simply concerned with the wildlings on their border, the other houses have no sense of danger from them on their horizon. The Starks may know Winter is Coming...but everyone else is consumed with their immediate situation. The traitors at the Night's Watch had no real sense of the threat.  Even Jon and Sansa with the Wildlings are now consumed with battling the Boltons. Catastrophe has to arrive before anyone will really pay attention to a larger threat.

[benteen]

Speaking of things that might have been said between Jon and Sansa, I wonder if Benjen was brought up.  Sansa's thoughts were about getting to Jon, her brother and Lord Commander though I imagine she probably asked if Benjen was still around.

[KaleyFirefly]

14 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

First time poster on this forum, but LONG time lurker.

I felt like Eliza that time Ozzy got blindsided on Survivor watching GoT last night.
Ok, so I pretty much have felt like Eliza's reaction all season long.

But let's start with the moment I have been waiting for since Jon first went North to the Wall. 

There was a teeny, tiny part of me that thought TPTB would have another near-miss and if they had, it would not have been pretty.

But I want to give them a big, wet sloppy kiss for this and if you didn't tear up then and you don't tear up now, I don't even want to know you because clearly, you have no soul and/or might be Ramsey.

They may not be in Winterfell (for the moment) but two Starks have come home.

Castle Black -

The reunion, the sharing stories, Sansa admitting she was awful (girl, yes, but look at you now). She is as different from that Joffrey-loving priss as daylight is to dark. Jon admitting to being emo. Jon saying, "Where will WE go?"   

Sansa, showing herself to be every inch her father's daughter, with the desire to take back the North because if they don't, they'll never be safe. And!!!! "I want you to help me but I'll do it myself if I have to." YAASSSSS....That's my girl.

Nice dodge about Shireen, there, Melisandre, but surely Davos has heard the tale of Shireen being burned alive by now? I loved Brienne's make no apologies speech about killing Stannis. Anyone who BBQs their daughter deserves exactly what he got. 

Vale - 

Ugh, LF again. He's just so swarmy and oily and unctuous. Which means he'll probably outlast everything like the cockroach he is. Clearly he has Robin under his Svengali spell. I cannot wait til he is called out for literally leading Sansa into harm's way. I don't think he gives two shits about Sansa, other than her resemblance to his childhood crush (only Cat, indeed) and that she's the Queen he needs for his chessboard.

King's Landing - 

Could they get on with it already, show? And the HS's explanation for why he turned religious? Really? He should have taken a hangover cure and had a nap already. Lame. So in keeping with the theme of women power this episode, Margery is here to prop up a given-up-hope Loras (although who can blame him, given the trauma he's suffered).

Tommen, to Cersei "You don't like Margery, do you?" Um, that's the understatement of the year, sweetie. 

More jabs from Lady Olenna - always a welcome sight.

Bring on the Tyrell army and City Watch and wipe out the Faith Militant (and their increasingly boring storyline) off the face of the earth once and for all.

But will Lancel live to tell the tale of Jaime not being the only one Cersei gets her incest fix from?

Mereen - 

Something tells me unlike the Bible's Jacob, Dany's going to be none too happy about the 7 years' deal Tyrion made on her behalf. 

Winterfell - 

So this happened and if anyone thought it was going to end other than Osha getting stabbed, well, let me sit you down and tell you a thing or three about what this show is all about. But seriously, TPTB, E-FUCKING-NOUGH with the Ramsey is the baddest bad that ever badded. He's Leroy Brown on steroids, ok? When I'm sitting there, mentally counting down the seconds until said stabbing occurs, that's not good storytelling. It's lazy and gratuitous and BORING as hell. You deserved better, Osha.

Back to Castle Black - 

A moment of levity with Tormund giving the eyebrow wiggle to Brienne who didn't know whether to be disgusted, amused, or turned on. Edd's "you do you, Tormund" expression at watching the attempted tete-a-tete? Priceless.

Podrick was giving Tormund the evil eye. Awww... If Jaime and Brienne don't meet again, I could totally get onboard a Tormund/Brienne pairing. Who am I kidding? I'd totally get onboard Tormund all by myself. All he need do is growl.

So a raven arrives with Ramsey's letter, presumably written in medieval crayon given the childlike language (come and see?), and it is ON. I loved that Sansa snatched the letter and read it to completion.

"A monster has taken our home and our brother, we have to go back to Winterfell and save them." Who could have imagined five years ago, even two years ago, that Sansa would have ever made that statement vs Jon. 

Sorry, Jon, your Watch may be ended but the real battle has just begun.

Pyke - (it was somewhere in there, right?)

I continue to hate that Theon was torn from the North storyline but I guess they need to give Yara something to do, especially now that Balon is dead (although he may never die). I get Yara's pissed because she tried to rescue him before and lost men in the attempt but cut your PTRamseyD brother some slack, 'k?

Dothraki land - 

Women power at its finest. No, she doesn't want to be rescued (or your number or to meet you nowhere or none of your time). Well, okay, so Jorah and Daario aren't scrubs, but Mama of Dragons is going to get shit done. HER way.

"You're not going to serve, you're going to die." Yes, honey, burn those motherfuckers down.

Walking away from the flames, stark naked and oh-so-powerful and triumphant in her nakedness, while everyone outside bows before her like the Khaleesi she is.

Confession - I didn't even miss Bran/flashback time this episode - it was THAT good. Plus, I know good things come to those who wait.

Thanks for the post of the Brienne / Tormund / Edd reactions...priceless. I am totally shipping Brienne and Tormund...make it happen! I don't care how! 

[Mya Stone]

BrieTor. 

 

Admit it. It flows right off the tongue like Tormund licking meat drippings before they hit his beard. 

[Fable]

Sansa and Jon for the win!  It wasn’t really the hug that got me so much as the dynamic afterwards.   I appreciated that Sansa acknowledged her prior cold attitude toward him but  they both accepted the awkwardness of the situation and still were able to bond over their tragic past.  I know a lot of people wanted to see Jon and Arya, but I think Jon and Sansa was powerful in that they were never close, but family was their bond, and they were Starks Ride or Die! 

[Umbelina]

51 minutes ago, Mya Stone said:

BrieTor. 

 

Admit it. It flows right off the tongue like Tormund licking meat drippings before they hit his beard. 

Torienne flows off the tongue better, but may not have the powerful element of Brund.

I love how the people of Westeros, or rather, the small folk, are being called the "mob."  Damn those poor people for grouping together and saying "Hell no, we won't go fight your stupid wars, screw this starving and being used simply for your comfort stuff!"

No, there really is no safe place there, and won't be as long as these wealthy, powerful, greedy people battle for more.  Hopefully, if they don't completely wipe each other out, the White Walkers will do it for them.

At least we got a Stark reunion, and that was beautifully done.  Oh and I think Sansa lept up and Jon caught her, not that she was towering over him completely, because he seemed to be holding her up, and she did a little jump at the end.  That was beautiful.  Two people who have been through hell and mutually recognized "home" and "trust" at the same moment, Jon a bit hesitant, since Sansa had always been so much like her mother.  Sansa, who has far outgrown her mother now, finally feeling safe and happy for a moment.  Just lovely.

I'm so happy we've passed the books!  There are a lot of spoilers out there, some more bizarre than others, some certainly possible, but I don't care which are true and which are false, because OMG Yay!  Something new is finally happening in this endless story, and we are seeing light that will eventually shine on the words "The End."  Thank you HBO!  It's real now.

[Brn2bwild]

16 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I do wonder what new longwinded title Dany is going to give herself out of this to add to all the rest.  The Unburnt 2.0, The Firestarter and Killer of Khals?

One question: how did that fire spread so fast?  Really old timber, or did Jorah/Daario spread oils on the floor?

[Umbelina]

I think the fires were both oil and wood based, which would make sense.  The oil splashed out towards them and the fire followed.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Umbelina

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

Thanks for the post of the Brienne / Tormund / Edd reactions...priceless. I am totally shipping Brienne and Tormund...make it happen! I don't care how! 

The best part was him eyefucking Brienne as he slowly and deliberately chewed on that slab of meat, like "Girl, guess what else I love eating?"

Wasn't Tormund giving sex tips to Jon back in Season 3? Put up or shut up, Giantsbane.

I'm completely in favour of Tormund and Brienne. He would call Brienne a hulking, monstrous terrifying beast of a woman and mean it as the deepest compliment.

[Avaleigh]

2 hours ago, Mya Stone said:

BrieTor. 

29 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The best part was him eyefucking Brienne as he slowly and deliberately chewed on that slab of meat, like "Girl, guess what else I love eating?"

Wasn't Tormund giving sex tips to Jon back in Season 3? Put up or shut up, Giantsbane.

I'm completely in favour of Tormund and Brienne. He would call Brienne a hulking, monstrous terrifying beast of a woman and mean it as the deepest compliment.

 

I like BriennTor. 

I apologize for the two in one quote, I'm unable to fix it for some reason. 

I never thought that I would want to root for Brienne to be with anyone but Jaime but I am totally on board with this ship.

Too bad there's probably no chance of Sansa becoming Lady Payne...

[Oscirus]

LOL , yea Sansa was such a bitch to Tyrion. The way she made her robe into a pillow for him and covered him on their wedding night, totes bitch move.

Quote

really can't figure out Littlefinger's end game. He had to know that he was leaving Sansa with monsters when he convinced her to marry Ramsay.

Well, he stored Sansa with the Boltons in hopes of antagonizing Cersei into making the Boltons her enemy while at the same time benefitting from it by promising to use the Vale soldiers to kill the victor of the Bolton Stannis war and claiming that he could bring the evil Sansa to justice.   He becomes warden of the north as soon as the Boltons go down.  I'd assume that he might've heard of Ramsay but didn't know the extent of his depravities.

I think Dany is definitely being set up as the main villain of the series. While the act itself wasn't antagonistic, her o face as she watched the fire engulf the men definitely was. Also if we go through this series, certain Dany action are eerily similar to other series villains.

1. going overboard with the crucifixions/killing everybody she perceived to be an enemy- Tywin Lannister

2. Demanding the throne because its her birth right/she's a dragon- Viserys

3.Repeatedly reminding people of her titles- Joffrey  

4. Feeding people to her pets- Do I even have to say it? 

 

The high Sparrow isn't about misogyny/ homophobia, the high sparrows about getting the prisoners that will bring the most attention to their cause. Loras just had the bad luck of being a brother to the queen, who was their real target in that particular instance.

I'm not sure about Brie Tor. It would work better if Tormund continues to chase an obviously uninterested Brienne. I want to see his desperate overtures to her.

The more I think about Mereen the more I think that Tyrion's plan makes sense. I mean, yea, he overshot his time by going with seven years. Pick a low number like two or three. But in playing the long game, it makes sense in weaning the slavers off slavery as opposed to forcing them to abolish it on the spot.

Now that Jon and Sansa are reunited, I'm guessing their next big thing after reclaiming winterfell is to bring back all the stark brethren. It's weird but it seems like Bran and especially Arya are too far gone for that to happen.

[Chris24601]

I gotta say I kinda love how Brienne/Tormund has taken off. Its like... Jaime who?

If Jaime stays on his current track then here's to it happening. Brienne does deserve someone who appreciates her for who she really is. Amongst the Free Folk she'd be a respected and admired warrior princess.

As to Jaime being off track I'm almost wondering if D&D haven't been told that Jaime's attempt at breaking free of Cersei ultimately fails or something and that's why they haven't given him the definitive break from her the books did... they're just saving screen time by not splitting them up in the first place. We've see clips of him in the Riverlands, but we don't know yet if that's about breaking away from Cersei or if he's just going about family business.

Rewatched with friends last night and the thing I noticed about the Jon/Sansa thing is how at peace both were in the fireside chat... as if this were the first moment in years that either of them had finally been able to let their guard down. It was a beautiful thing that caused my friends to fist pump when they hugged and again with "where will WE go?" and finally at "I'll do it myself if I have to."

I currently have a theory that, once the show is finished, this episode (and the Stark reunion in particular) is going to be the one people regard as the turning point in the story. That moment in the story where it flips from total despair to 'now we have a shot at winning.' Because it really was about the first untainted WIN for the Starks since, well forever. Yes, there will still be setbacks (ex. I don't expect Rickon to survive) but there's a path I can see out of this now that doesn't end in everyone good and decent dying horribly, but instead getting something at least in the ballpark of a happy ending.

I think they even laid out what that happy-ish ending IS too, because its the classic bookend to a series such as this;

Winterfell (where it all began) restored and filled with a happiness Jon and Sansa never appreciated before all of this began. Let Davos be the Hand. Let Sam be the Maester (who brings Gilly and Little Sam along). Make Tormund lord of the former Umber lands so that he and Brienne can make beautiful warrior princesses together. Make Pod a knight. Destroy the White Walkers forever so the Watch is not needed and let Edd become the head of Jon's Kingsguard. Let Arya return and become the Starks' face-changing Master of Whispers. Let Bran forego the throne of Winterfell to become High Priest of a revived Old Faith. Let Ghost and Summer and Nymeria reunite and run free.

The cost is already high and will be higher still before its all over. But if they make it through those characters in particular will have earned their happy endings.

[Haleth]

11 hours ago, screamin said:

We've seen that Lancel renounced his Lannister riches and his inheritance of power from his father Kevan to live the same vows-of-poverty life every humble Sparrow does. We've seen him mortify his flesh by carving holy symbols in it. Yes, it's different from Cersei's 'atonement.' Even in our own world, though, when a person confesses to a priest, the priest is free to decide what atonements the confessed sin requires on an individual basis. Considering that the High Sparrow is also the High Septon (the 'Pope' of that world), I'd guess he considers it's within his purview to decide which atonement is appropriate to which sinner.

Yes, based on how sincere the HS thinks the penitent is.  Lancel truly drank the KoolAid.  Cersei was trying to manipulate her way out of the cell. (It's clearer in the book that Lancel gave up all his worldly goods, his title, even his wife to join the FM.)

11 hours ago, GrailKing said:

now if you think Lancel won't be facing atonement, there's a Mountain waiting to prove you wrong.

Ha!  Good point!

[Tikichick]

7 hours ago, huahaha said:

I guess we remember the episode differently. The Khals were saying they wouldn't turn Dany over to the slavers, even for thousands of horses. The implication seemed to be that they would do the honorable thing and place her with the other widows. The rape talk came after she refused and started insulting them.

And again, I'm not arguing in favor of the Dothraki way of life. The Khals are also villains. I guess I just don't see how going in and burning even bad people alive to get yourself power makes someone a hero.

First and foremost Dany had to survive and free herself.  How do you suggest that was possible without killing them all in her circumstances?  Do you genuinely believe that if she had waited another half an hour the rapes wouldn't have started already?  Should she have submitted and bided her time for a better opportunity to escape?  Do you seriously suggest that she would have survived the rapes?  Remember, it would have been all of the khals, their bloodriders and if she wasn't dead, their horses would have been encouraged to have a go at her.  How long exactly was she surviving without acting?  Do you suppose there was a chance she could have knocked them all unconscious and made her escape before they stopped her?  What were her options in that moment to escape her fate?

Again, first and foremost in that moment she had to survive and free herself.  If you have a better way she should have surmounted that hurdle, I'd love to hear it.  Surviving doesn't make her a hero, it makes her alive.  All she's done beyond free herself at this point is stumble out of the burning carnage, frankly looking a bit more dazed than majestic and conquering.   She didn't gesture for the khalasars to bow.  Not even certain at this point she's much aware of their presence in the moment.

As for the future, yep, it's likely absolute power will eventually corrupt her -- if she ever has it in her hands long enough to rule with that notion.   That absolute power tends to tear destroy everyone who wields it.  I believe that concept has some bearing on why Maester Aemon found himself at the wall, did it not?

[nachomama]

I keep singing in my head "Don't turn around, uh oh, Der Khalasar's on Fire"

I'm completely on board with BrieTor and I'd love the reveal to be battle noises and Tormund crawling from a tent, beaten and smiling.

[Tikichick]

8 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

The reason this analogy doesn't work for me is because Lancel and Margaery's alleged crimes aren't nearly as severe as Lancel's and haven't even been proven.

It's like one guy confesses to the Pope that he helped kill a king and committed treason. The Pope likes that the guy was honest so he decides to immediately give the guy a job where he'll have power and authority and will be permitted to commit acts of violence on the people in the city.

The other two people are both accused of sins by the Pope but the people being accused deny it. In your cigarette analogy there is strong evidence that the son is guilty. In the case against the first person, they have the word of a prostitute (which wouldn't be worth mentioning if we didn't specifically know the way the High Sparrow sees prostitutes as some of the ultimate sinners in the eyes of the Faith) and that's enough to keep the guy imprisoned and tortured indefinitely while the guy who confesses to murder gets to go around being a violent thug in the name of the Faith. How is that just or at all reasonable? Why is Oliver more believable than Loras? There are numerous ways he could have found out about the birthmark.

Simple, Oliver's testimony results in the outcome that suits the High Sparrow, for multiple reasons, all ultimately leading to him being more powerful.

[vibeology]

8 hours ago, huahaha said:

I guess we remember the episode differently. The Khals were saying they wouldn't turn Dany over to the slavers, even for thousands of horses. The implication seemed to be that they would do the honorable thing and place her with the other widows. The rape talk came after she refused and started insulting them.

And again, I'm not arguing in favor of the Dothraki way of life. The Khals are also villains. I guess I just don't see how going in and burning even bad people alive to get yourself power makes someone a hero.

I don't think it's honorable to imprison someone. Dany didn't ask for the marriage to Drogo and she didn't ask to join Dothraki society, even if there were elements of it that she has embraced. She needed to get out and because there were so many Dothraki, the only way out was to win the vast majority of them over. Because even if she had taken off with Jorah and Dario when they found her she wouldn't have had enough time to get away before a huge horde of horse lords went chasing after her. The only way to escape a lifetime imprisonment was to get everyone on team Dany so they'd willingly let her go or maybe even join her and fight with her.

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, gwhh said:

I guess they don't have fire codes in the holy city of the Dothraki.   Because that building went right up.

Someone cracked on another site that's what happens when you get rid of OSHA

[DigitalCount]

I find it hard to imagine the Dothraki assembling in force to recover 1 solitary foreign-born former Khaleesi. They had already told her she barely mattered to them. As for fears of losing the others, I got the impression that life as a crone would be preferable to being a widow with no support structure and no respect. It's a prison for Dany because they're ignoring her personal feelings and she has somewhere better she could be, but for most of these women, an honored position that protects against rape and mistreatment by rival Khals would be a blessing.

It's worth noting that the Dothraki in S1 planned to leave for Westeros when their omens favored war. I find it unlikely that these guys would be hot to trot just for Dany. They would probably consider her foolish and abandon her to what they assume to be a slow death.

On another subject, ship names are easier when you don't focus solely on the names. Wildling + "Thapphire!" = Wildphire.

[Boilergal]

9 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

It's like one guy confesses to the Pope that he helped kill a king and committed treason. The Pope likes that the guy was honest so he decides to immediately give the guy a job where he'll have power and authority and will be permitted to commit acts of violence on the people in the city.

I'm sure part of Lancel's reward is due to him handing the High Sparrow Cersei on a silver platter.   

At times Lancel's facial expressions give the impression that he is very conflicted by the High Sparrow's actions.

[nksarmi]

9 hours ago, glowbug said:

I'm late to the thread but really needed some time to process after last night's episode.

Sansa's reunion with Jon was pure perfection. Those two actors have great chemistry together and they were both able to convey even without words the joy and relief in seeing each other again. The hug and the conversation they had regarding their past was lovely, two of the best moments of the season thus far. But I found that it left me wanting and not because I want more from Jon and Sansa because, again, their reunion was better than I hoped for, but because it made me long for a reunion between Jon and Arya and/or Arya and Sansa even more than before. Those two relationships were the most developed of all the Stark siblings despite the fact that Jon and Arya shared very little screen/page time together.

This was also a case where I can see how things are going to play out very differently in the books. I can't see Book Jon after his resurrection completely give up on fighting the Others and/or for the North. I'm convinced he'll leave the Night's Watch but I don't think he'll abandon his causes. Maybe I'll eat my words if book six ever comes out but I just don't see it happening. I was a little disappointed by Jon's attitude to be honest, although it did give Sansa some good material. I like this new assertive Sansa. The scene with Tormund and Brienne was hilarious, although I can't ship them because  I haven't given up on Jamie/Brienne, the only ship I'm sailing in this story. Granted, show Jamie has been a major disappointment, IMO, but until I've completely given up on him I can't give up on that ship.

There's not much to say about King's Landing except that I was pleasantly surprised that Margery hasn't been taken in by the High Sparrow and it was great to see her reunite with her brother, and be strong for him. Also, Olenna and Cersei on the same side is a dangerous alliance. I hope this plot moves along quickly though.

Mereen continues to bore me. I'm having trouble seeing the significance of it except to keep Tyrion in the story. Dany is coming with a hoard of Dothraki, which will make everything that's happening there completely irrelevant. Maybe the Red Priestess next week will spice things up.

I was surprised by how Dany's story with the Dothraki turned out. Like many others I thought that it would be Drogon that would convince the Dothraki to follow her, especially given that scene in the promos with him flying overhead. I'm glad they went in a different direction. It was an interesting contrast between her and Jon and how they handled being viewed as a God. An understandable difference since she was raised to believe that her family was the rightful rulers of Westeros and that their blood was superior while Jon was raised to think of himself as a bastard who deserved very little and was less than his peers. I can see how he'd be uncomfortable with the idea of being a God while Dany would relish in it given their upbringings. I haven't been much for the theory that Dany turns out to be a villain in this story but this contrast made me consider it a little more seriously. 

I think the difference between Jon in the books and Jon in the show is that book Jon already had his letter. He was already motivated to march on Winterfell and when he rises - I think he will be bitterly determined to do just that. It will probably be somewhere along the way when he realizes that once he unites the North again, he will have to try to help them understand that the thing they had come to believe was nothing but myth and legend was real and that the NW can't fight them alone. But Winterfell and killing Ramsey will be his first priority.

Show Jon is feeling a bit lost. It's not that he doesn't know what's coming - he just isn't sure what he can do to stop it. The NW is depleted but the Wall still stands and he feels that he has done nothing but tear them apart. Now that he has Winterfell as his mission - I think he will switch pretty quickly into rallying the Northmen against the Others. After all, at least in the show, he is going to have to explain why he led the Wildlings under the wall if he wants the North to trust him. If the combination of him, Tormond, the Red Woman, and the giant can convince the North that the Others really ARE coming - that will make Jon's job much easier.

Of course what I really wonder is what will happen next. By the end of the season I expect that Jon will have united the North and perhaps even the Vale. Unfortunately, I think Littlefinger will still be on the "right" side when all this happens. So I wonder what crazy event will happen in the North - either this season or next - that makes the threat of the Others real for the entire realm? I suppose the wall coming down seems the most likely (I hope Jon starts ordering the burning of bodies asap). But if that happens - what is the next narrative step in the story? Will they wage war in the North or head South with a horde of undead on their tails?

[OakGoblinFly]

Thank goodness for a partial Stark family reunion and the most awkward dinner ever – otherwise I found most of this episode boring – or worse, a retread.

 

Hello Little Finger!  I wondered where you were.

 

Nice to know that Sweet Robin is just as bat shit crazy as his mother.

 

 

I was bored by everything Meereen and Kings Landing; while not a fan of the Iron Islands, I do think Alfie Allen is doing a fantastic job as Theon Greyjoy (he really needs to be recognized for his phenomenal work on this show).

 

Dany.  Yawn.  She burns her enemies alive (again), walks through fire (again), declares herself ruler (again), plays white savior (again), and collects a Dothraki horde (again).  20-years, 6,000+ pages, and six seasons and I feel like there has been no movement in Dany’s story since the first book/season.

 

 

Everything seems rather disjoined – I wonder if the show would be better served if they focused on fewer storylines per episode.

[nksarmi]

8 hours ago, huahaha said:

I guess we remember the episode differently. The Khals were saying they wouldn't turn Dany over to the slavers, even for thousands of horses. The implication seemed to be that they would do the honorable thing and place her with the other widows. The rape talk came after she refused and started insulting them.

And again, I'm not arguing in favor of the Dothraki way of life. The Khals are also villains. I guess I just don't see how going in and burning even bad people alive to get yourself power makes someone a hero.

Dany isn't a hero but she isn't a villain either. She isn't Littlefinger who just wants to instill chaos and use it to rise in power as far as he can go.

Dany is a conqueror who means to change the world. People like that are rarely what we can think of as true heroes. Heck, Dany isn't even a good ruler - that's why she so desperately needs Tyrion (who could be - especially in the books once he gets over his "where do whores go" depression).

I believe the only main character in this story who bears the mantle of "hero" is Jon. Sadly, I've come to realize that's why both Ned and Robb had to die - to propel Jon to be the sole "hero" of the tale.

That doesn't mean that I think other people won't do heroic things - just that we don't need to ask ourselves if Dany is a hero or not because that isn't the role she's suppose to fill. I think she will be on the side of the heroes as will Tyrion but neither of them are true "white hats."

[CofCinci]

If B?T is not in the books, I don't even want them!

Ramsey writes that he'll cut out Jon's "bastard heart and eat it."  Ramsey's death is probably that. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by CofCinci

[rhygirl720]

23 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

I find it hard to imagine the Dothraki assembling in force to recover 1 solitary foreign-born former Khaleesi. They had already told her she barely mattered to them. As for fears of losing the others, I got the impression that life as a crone would be preferable to being a widow with no support structure and no respect. It's a prison for Dany because they're ignoring her personal feelings and she has somewhere better she could be, but for most of these women, an honored position that protects against rape and mistreatment by rival Khals would be a blessing.

It's worth noting that the Dothraki in S1 planned to leave for Westeros when their omens favored war. I find it unlikely that these guys would be hot to trot just for Dany. They would probably consider her foolish and abandon her to what they assume to be a slow death.

On another subject, ship names are easier when you don't focus solely on the names. Wildling + "Thapphire!" = Wildphire.

Dany is not just some woman. She is a queen , the mother of dragons...just ask her !  Dany is filled with righteous anger, "breaker of chains"  Her actions against the Khal's was completely consistent with her character development to this point. In her speech to the Khal's there was a look in her eye  where the Targ madness was visible. Dany is now becoming who she will be. The writers and actress did a fantastic job conveying this.

[mac123x]

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

It may seem like a really small thing, but he is feeding the poor. 

We saw one scene of that, prior to his elevation to High Septon.  Afterwards, we've only seen scenes of his armed goons destroying brothels, attacking merchants, breaking wine casks (a serious problem since medieval sanitation was horrible and drinking alcoholic beverages was much safer than drinking water). 

 

He's selling off the assets of the church to buy food to give to the poor (in the books at least, though we've seen scant evidence of that on the show).  What happens when he runs out of things to sell?  Where does he get the money to continue feeding the poor after he's destroyed the nobility and wrecked the economy?  As crappy as feudalism is, it's still a better system than the hunter-gatherer, subsistence farmer economy that he'll reduce Westeros to.

 

Sorry for the rant, but his backstory really irritated me.  If he chose to give up his gods-given talent as a cobbler to live the life of an Ascetic, fine, his choice.  Even if he wants to preach that way of life and persuade others to follow, fine.  He's trying to compel everyone to live that way, and it's a huge step backwards.

 

12 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Didn't we lose Hot Pie?  I thought he was murdered at the inn he was so happy to be working at?  (In book world.  Not sure the show has had time to keep up with Hot Pie unfortunately.)

Show Hot Pie was last seen by Brienne and Pod at the Inn of the Crossroads, seemingly living a decent life as a cook.  In the book, that inn was essentially destroyed by the multiple occupiers.  Book Hot Pie was at a different inn (Inn of the Kneeling King or something like that) so he's probably still alive.