S06.E03: Oathbreaker

[Dev F]

8 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

The Tower of Joy, that was the dumbest fight scene.  Instead of wielding Dawn, Arthur was a cheesy show-off with two swords.  

One of the swords was Dawn. They made a point of having him stick it in the ground to display the rising sun on the pommel.

1 hour ago, RimaTheBirdGirl said:

And further, this fellow is not the Greatjon, but some-other-Umber.  My son reminded me of all this -- the GreatJon (on the Show) was that very large man who guffawed when Robb chopped off the Greatjon's fingers, or some such thing.  And after that was ever-loyal.

Bannermen loyalty is so integral to the ethos of the books.  It is sad-making that Show is utterly trashing the character of the Northerners.   In fact, disregarding all the regional distinctions, now.  (Unless Rickon's betrayal is a ruse.)

I don't think I agree that it's much of a betrayal in the case of the Umbers. As you mention, the Greatjon was introduced as a belligerent malcontent who refused to follow Robb's orders and drew a knife on his lord, and only fell in line when Robb's direwolf bit his fingers off. That's a characterization not of someone's who's reflexively loyal but of someone whose loyalty must be earned, and everyone who's already earned the Umbers' loyalty is dead.

I was actually pleasantly surprised that the portrayal of the Smalljon was very much in keeping with what's already been established about the Umbers. They could've given him a dumb speech like Lord Karstarks -- "The wildlings are fucking my lands, so it's time for a new family to take control of the North!" -- but they made a point of having Lord Umber refuse to kneel to the Boltons, instead appealing to their shared self-interest.

25 minutes ago, benteen said:

In regards to Tommen's voice, I think it's starting to resemble Joffrey's.

Agreed. That's one of the most interesting things about the character, I think -- that when he gets angry he really does start to sound like his psycho older brother.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Dev F

[Haleth]

I have no doubt Varys taught the little birds to read.  He'd want them to look at documents and letters and report their contents back to him.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Haleth

[Constantinople]

11 hours ago, vendredi3 said:

I believe the place where Dany is staying is known as a retconvent, where the writers have suddenly decided Khal's wives go once they're widowed.

This hasn't been mentioned in the show before, but I'm almost positive it was mentioned in Game of Thrones, i.e., the first book.

[nodorothyparker]

The first book does specifically mention the dosh khaleen.  Drogo's crew were supposed to take Dany there after his death but things got all jumbled up with all the stuff with Mirri Maz Duur and most of them just left.

In the books, it's obvious Varys knows he'll be suspected of at least having a role in Tywin's death and has to disappear.  The show has never made anything with him clear, which is probably deliberate so he can continue doing whatever plotting and scheming he's doing.  I think it's supposed to be mysterious and intriguing and instead I'm mostly just bored and feeling like I'm watching the entire Meereen crew running out the clock.

[Bannon]

22 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

The first book does specifically mention the dosh khaleen.  Drogo's crew were supposed to take Dany there after his death but things got all jumbled up with all the stuff with Mirri Maz Duur and most of them just left.

In the books, it's obvious Varys knows he'll be suspected of at least having a role in Tywin's death and has to disappear.  The show has never made anything with him clear, which is probably deliberate so he can continue doing whatever plotting and scheming he's doing.  I think it's supposed to be mysterious and intriguing and instead I'm mostly just bored and feeling like I'm watching the entire Meereen crew running out the clock.

Here's the issue with a story this vast being portrayed in 10 hours a year. There is no time to portray opposing political forces, or the social context, in Slaver's Bay, in any depth at all. Thus, for years now, we have a few minutes of expository dialogue  a week, from one perspective and now it's really, really, getting forced.

I said years ago that Tywin Lannister was the character that glued this story together on television, especially as well acted as he was,  and the writers would find it very difficult to make things anywhere near as compelling once he was dead. I wish I had been wrong. 

[proserpina65]

Damn you, Bloodraven!!!  Sooooo close . . .

Lord Commander Dolorous Edd!

Loved Davos' very practical response to Jon's resurrection (it's fucking mad) and Tormund's as well.

That fight at the Tower of Joy was amazing.  Ser Arthur Dayne was a beast with those swords.  And I appreciated that, unlike most group fights, Ned and his surviving men all went at him at once instead one at a time.  And he still beat them all.

Edited May 9, 2016 by proserpina65

[WatchrTina]

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Drogo's crew were supposed to take Dany there after his death but things got all jumbled up with all the stuff with Mirri Maz Duur and most of them just left.

Taking Dany to the Dosh Kahleen was, I think, the final duty of Drogo's blood-riders but after they saw Dany emerge from the flames with dragons they signed on as HER blood-riders instead (which also violated their customs.)

The one thing I liked about Dany's new situation is that, at least within the confines of the Dosh Kahleen, the women are in charge.  The head woman just said "Go" and those men went.

Edited May 15, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Raachel2008]

11 hours ago, jcin617 said:

Something tells me the thing with Rickon is a set-up.

That would be all kinds of awesome. I have such a hard time buying that all those North families are willing to accept Ramsay as their leader, a nutcase bastard who has no real claim over Winterfell.

[proserpina65]

Oh, and other than the exquisitely lovely NCW and that amusing scene with the Small Council, I am now officially bored with Kings Landing.  I just don't get what D&D's plan for that storyline is, now that it's strayed mostly very far from the books.  I guess they're going to have the little birds killing Pycelle and Kevan on Qyburn's orders?  Ugh, just ugh.  Jaime needs to get his ass to the Riverlands asap.

[benteen]

I was sorry we didn't get the scene with Arya warging to find where the cat was and her smacking the Kindly Man (or Jaqen) on the knuckles from ADWD.  I liked that scene a lot.  But I'm glad she's finally into her WoW storyline.

[proserpina65]

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I’m not quite sure what I think about the show evidently sidestepping completely Jon having to choose between his NW oath and his family.  It seemed like they were just delaying that from Season 5 to Season 6, but now he’s left the Watch without even knowing about Sansa or (sigh) Rickon.

I suspect he won't have actually physically left before Sansa and company show up next week.

12 hours ago, vendredi3 said:

I believe the place where Dany is staying is known as a retconvent, where the writers have suddenly decided Khal's wives go once they're widowed.

Actually the Dosh Khaleen is from the books.

[Raachel2008]

9 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

I saw upthread people discussing Jon's motives for walking away from the Watch and I think the easiest and most believable reason is just PTSD. He went through a severe betrayal by people he thought respected him and extreme physical trauma. During the executions he seemed to me to be going through the motions, possibly in the hopes that if he could just execute his murderers he'd find some measure of peace.

I see it in a much simpler way: his watch has ended. He is supposed to be a crow until his death - and he died. That is it, no PTSD, none of that. He is free to pursue his own destiny, and not one "forged" by the fact he is a bastard.

[vendredi3]

24 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Actually the Dosh Khaleen is from the books.

I stand corrected! I still love portmanteaux though :)

[Eyes High]

I really liked Smalljon's actor: loads of charisma, great presence, really connected with his dialogue. He seemed to "ground" Iwan Rheon in the scene and keep him from getting too silly. Great stuff.

[ElizaD]

I loved the Wall in the first two episodes, but for some strange reason I wasn't really moved by the aftermath of the resurrection. Maybe it's because Melisandre's presence was so small when the first two episodes made me anticipate what this would do to her faith: the reaction to Jon felt more everyday than epic.

King's Landing really feels like a smaller and less impressive place this season, stuck in a rut with the same old faces sassing each other. I actually liked the Tommen/High Sparrow scene the most: characters like Littlefinger are too obviously sleazy, but the High Sparrow is so smooth and friendly that he genuinely feels like someone who could successfully fool and manipulate others by figuring out what impresses them and adjusting his strategies.

Dual-wielding Dayne shows how ridiculous it is to defend anything the show does by saying it's just being realistic. No, it just does cool, shocking stuff, whether that's defined as almost every major female character being raped/threatened with rape or a knight twirling his swords in the style of a 21st century xtreeeme badass rather than a medieval warrior.

Oh, wow, yet another flawless Ramsay victory. Heaven forbid he run out of Starks to defeat, degrade and torture. Now Sansa enduring weeks of rape will turn out to be even more pointless: it won't even be a reason to retake Winterfell, since Ramsay threatening Rickon's life will presumably make Jon and Sansa leave the Wall.

[proserpina65]

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Is it just me, or do there seem to be more f-bombs flying? 

Doesn't seem like it to me.  F-bombs have flown quite freely in the previous seasons.

[Oscirus]

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I still don't know why Varys is in Meereen.  Tyrion can't go back without a regime change but Varys seems to be there just to have somebody to snark with.

People know that Varys helped Tyrion escape so he can't go back either. Also he's apparently helping Dany (probably really Tyrion) take over the iron throne.

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so who's to say Ned lying about that victory really means anything.

I don't think Ned lied about that. That's likely just the accepted version of the story since only Ned and Reed are still around from that battle.

 

Rhaegar using his best fighter to guard a woman that was never in any really danger shows just how stupid/arrogant that he was. I really want them to hurry up with the reveal so we can find out what the real importance of his parentage is. I hope it's not just something crown related.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Oscirus

[Gertrude]

I actually liked the bits at the Wall. Davos is just all kinds of awesome and I loved that he asked Mel to leave. I also liked that she left without complaint. In the books we've seen that she is not a cruel person and does have empathy for others even as she is pursuing her single-minded goals. She keeps Devon? by her side because she doesn't want Davos to lose another son. In the show, it's obvious that Jon is utterly confused and when Davos points out that they need a minute, I think it's her humanity and empathy that we've seen glimpses of coming through. I'm not fond of her lack of conviction in Jon being AA (Stannis wasn't, so someone has to be), but that's minor.

We've all speculated on the aftermath of Jon's resurrection and I think most have concluded that he will leave the Wall for whatever reason. I had always been of the mind that it would be because the Watch rejects him or is uneasy about him in a negative way, but the show has given me something new to think about. that the men are uneasy about him for a completely different reason - he's some kind of god. That's a lot to live up to and not something that would be easy to assimilate, especially in Jon's state of mind. I find it utterly believable that the immediate aftermath is a bunch of men looking at each other and wondering 'so what now?'

Completely underwhelmed by Mereen and King's Landing. Much filler surrounding the small nuggets that I actually enjoyed. Tyrion's conversation with GW and Miss was bad. The small council was good, Cersei was well acted, as always, but I can't get over the Cersei/Jaime team that is as tight as ever and it really makes me aware of how much is wrong with the story telling as I imagine it could/should be. I hated that Qyburn appropriated the little birds. Plot and story elements are not interchangeable blocks you slide here and there til they more or less line up.

[qtpye]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Rhaegar using his best fighter to guard a woman that was never in any really danger shows just how stupid/arrogant that he was. I really want them to hurry up with the reveal so we can find out what the real importance of his parentage is. I hope it's not just something crown related.

No, every time the visions get really revealing and interesting, the Raven has to say, "Time to go Bran, we can not be under the waves too long...".

I mean what the heck did we really find out here, that Ned lied to his son about his sword skills?  Next, we will learn that Ned caught a fish that is not nearly as big as he said it was.

[Alapaki]

Well, I guess I'm going to hold onto the Meera/Jon separated at birth theory until it's either proven or disproven with "TOJ 2.0: THE AFTERBIRTH!".  

Why introduce Howland Reed in that detail now?  Sure, it explains why Ned felt he owed Howland his life and why the two were so loyal to each other.  But the show, to my knowledge, hasn't made such a huge deal of that.  Meera and Jojen show up at Winterfell and basically earn Bran & Co.'s trust by their actions, not just by the fact that they're Reeds.

Given that, I have to assume that Howland is going to play some significant role in the the remainder of the series.  I suppose the easiest reason is that he and Jon somehow meet (although iirc the Bog where the Reeds come from is further south than Winterfell) and informs of R+L.

But I still think that Bran seeing Howland there was significant.  My theory thus is still that Bran sees Ned and Howland each take one of Lyanna's twins.  He then has Hodor escort Meera south of the Wall to inform Jon. (knowing he was protecting Lyanna's daughter is probably the only thing that would prompt Hodor to leave Bran).

Although, vis a vis Bran and Hodor, I don't think the reiteration that staying in a vision too long can result in getting stuck there was merely a throw-away line.  

[Gertrude]

Bran learned that what he thinks he knows is not necessarily the truth, which is an important lesson. It also echoes the convo between Sansa and Littlefinger about Lyanna being kidnapped and raped. Sansa repeats the (presumably) lie and Littlefinger raises an eyebrow. This scene is not for us book readers, but for the viewers who don't know that what they think they know is probably a lie.

I didn't mind them cutting the vision where they did - as long as they revisit it.

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

This hasn't been mentioned in the show before, but I'm almost positive it was mentioned in Game of Thrones, i.e., the first book.

I thought it was mentioned by Jorah after Khal Drogo died in season one.  But it's been awhile since I've seen season one, so I could be wrong.

[Maximum Taco]

21 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I don't think Ned lied about that. That's likely just the accepted version of the story since only Ned and Reed are still around from that battle.

I agree, also if they're going in accordance with the books, Ned doesn't like to talk about the Tower of Joy, and Howland Reed seems like a very private and inscrutable man, doubt he's spreading around any news (true or false.)

It's highly possible that everyone just assumed Ned slew Dayne in single honourable combat, because he delivered Dawn to Starfall, and it seems like the type of thing honourable Ned would do, and in Winterfell and the North, it's good for the people's morale if they think their young new Lord slew the best knight in the realm (preferably in the most spectacular fashion.) It's something the Northerners would want to believe, even if untrue ("That's right, doesn't matter that he's the Sword of the Morning, one Stark is worth 10 Swords of the Morning!") It's like having a championship sports team in this day and age, it makes everyone in the city walk a little taller.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[fallaway]

Ned *did* deliver the final blow, so he did actually kill Dayne. He just didn't defeat him. Technically correct, the best kind of correct.

I am firmly in the camp that Umber is loyal to the Starks and the North. He refused to how fealty to Ramsey the traditional ways, and pointed out that Ramsey killed his father. He's the Trojan Horse. He, Rickon, and Osha got into Winterfell without a fight. Rickon (hopefully) still remembers the secret passageways. Osha can contact wildlings and let them in - and thus the terror brought on by Abel and his spearwives happens in the show too. Maybe Jon Snow shows up when people are already spooked. Or maybe he stays at the Wall a little longer with Sansa.

I would like to have news of Jon's death, and then later resurrection, be spread across the lands. And I was hoping for more dramatic reactions at the Wall (Mel's way great).

The attempts at humor in this episode were valiant but mostly painful. But the plot is moving along nicely.

Edited May 9, 2016 by fallaway

[AuntieMame]

11 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

What I will believe is that was a random, extra wolf and that Shaggy Dog is going to help Ghost and tear Ramsay Bolton's throat directly out.  

Osha would have died protecting Rickon raher than let him be taken back there if it wasn't part of a plan.  Hell, she'd have killed him herself (a la Luwin) before she'd have let him be turned over to someone known for SKINNING people.  

 

10 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Is it really that surprising that Osha would try to make a deal with the other side to save herself only to ultimately realize that these people aren't going to play ball with her? 

She tried the same thing with Robb and Theon. She always tries to save herself first only this time it seems like it isn't going to work out for her. 

Osha is loyal to the Starks. First for sparing her and then as she got to know them. She slept with Theon so they could all escape. I'm not certain what they're up to, but it isn't Osha being disloyal to save something as small in the scheme of things as her own skin. I think Osha is one of the few characters who might actually understand everything that is at stake with both the Others and who survives to fight the war and rule afterward. She would be cut into forty-seven pieces....or worse before she was taken alive to the detriment of Rickon.

For a story that has enormous amounts of ground to cover in what? Twenty-three projected episodes? The writers are spinning their wheels on many fronts. It makes me wonder if they now have the same problem Martin seems to have. They have the end of the plot outline but no idea how to get there from here. I was a little disappointed this week in terms of overall movement. 

The tongues cut out of the little birds makes no sense. How would they sing? And if they are literate they could tell what they know that way. Plus, Varys was mutilated as a child and while he has come to terms with it, it isn't like he thinks it's a good thing. 

I don't think they have any idea what to do with Jaime in the plot of the show and that this is why his redemption arc is stalled. Book!Jamie is MIA on his way to Lady Stoneheart and Brienne, furious with Cersei for cheating on him and generally being an idiot. More globally, Jaime is disgusted with the horrible things serving the Lannister honor and interests have forced him to. How could they portray any of that and where would they send him? To me, the only show option would be to have him head to the Wall and put his skills to work there, which would reunite him with Brienne, but he is clearly needed for some later Kings Landing stuff so we will see him spinning his character wheels until then. 

 Ned told more lies about the ToJ than he ever told in his life before. I personally don't think Howland was dishonorable. What was he supposed to do? Watch Ned get fricasseed and then be chopped into pieces himself, all while failing to aid Lyanna? It was a fight to the death. Do the Queensbury rules really apply?

I see writers shitting their pants. I think Martin gave them the ultimate fate of the main characters and the big battle with the walkers and not a lot between here and there, the idea being that GRRM would finish more books in the meantime. I have no idea how they're going to pull this off. They have to:

1. Get Dany and company out of the east (and now Dosh Khaleen) after essentially ruining cities to no purpose and not saving anyone. 

2. Either end or fold in the Dorne and Ironborn plots. Worse luck, they seem to have killed Dorne rather than the boring Ironborn.

3. Get Arya trained and make her relevant again.

4. Settle all of the human wars so they can make the Others and the winter to end all winters front and center in terms of plot. This and all of the prophecy is supposed to be the big end game after all. 

5. The Wall is supposed to fall at some point, allowing the Others through into the lands of men. Transformation into legendary heroes needs to happen too. This is the one storyline where they're reasonably on track.

6. Cope with all of the competing religions and their storylines and effect on the overall arcs. Plus, get the Lannisters and Tyrells out of KL. 

7. Littlefinger and his machinations have been little seen as of late, but I doubt they've gone away.

8. Get the dragons rider and war ready.

9. Wrap up the fates of quite a few secondary and tertiary characters and their actions and effect on the human and cosmic wars.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a few plots and characters, but you see my point. Even though I enjoyed some of the things I saw last night, I don't see writers/showrunners who are on track to do what they need to do and we're being distracted with bread and cgi. I hope I will be proven wrong. 

At this point, or actually an earlier point, if I were an HBO executive, I would have put the two Hbo writers, Martin, Martin's assistant (whose a decent writer in his own rite) and one other of the best tv writers I could find and have them hammer the rest of it out from here to there. Staff writer could be on hand to flesh out what the inner circle decided. Because at this point, the show is in danger of the fate of the books...a series that had potential to be a masterpiece that sputtered in the middle and the finish. Oh, and I would put a great editor in that room too, if such a thing still exists. If Martin then wanted to expand or change for his books at his leisure, he would be more than welcome to do so. 

I'm afraid that I see a bit of a hot mess developing that was planned at best, two or three episodes ahead with only the ultimate ending in mind and whatever cliff they're going to leave us hanging off at the end of this season. 

I was hopeful after the first episode but now I'm worried. What, is that Ice Prince guy taking a vacation? Jamaica maybe?

Nice to see the Queen of Thorns, but I think she'd be doing a lot more than sitting on the small council to free her grandchildren. At the very least she would ally with Cersei and the Lannisters to take out the Faith Militant. 

Shaggy Dog!!!! Nooooooo!!!!!

[mac123x]

Ned told more lies about the ToJ than he ever told in his life before.

Bran said that he'd heard that story a thousand times, but he never said who told him that story.  I'm guessing it was Old Nan, who had a taste for embroidering her stories.  I'd bet that taciturn Ned just said "It was 7 against 3, and I still would have lost to Arthur Dayne without Howland Reed's help."  He wouldn't provide a lot of details about it because he's participating in a coverup already.  The more lies you tell, the more lies you have to remember.

[Gertrude]

3 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

The tongues cut out of the little birds makes no sense. How would they sing? And if they are literate they could tell what they know that way. Plus, Varys was mutilated as a child and while he has come to terms with it, it isn't like he thinks it's a good thing.

I am pretty sure this was specifically referenced in the books. In Essos, Varys' little mice were taught to read specifically so they could steal the secrets of powerful men without taking anything to alert them it has been found out. Reading and writing go hand in hand so it's not a stretch to think they write. And I can't quote you where, but Varys definitely references his birds having no tongues. I guess I don't see what is so non-nonsensical about it (other than the over the top fantasy aspect of it, but that permeates the books in the minor details).

[Alapaki]

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I see writers shitting their pants. I think Martin gave them the ultimate fate of the main characters and the big battle with the walkers and not a lot between here and there, the idea being that GRRM would finish more books in the meantime. I have no idea how they're going to pull this off. 

IIRC, Season 6 was already in the can when D&D said they think they have less than two-full seasons' worth of materials left to cover.  Unless that was just a matter of speaking on the fly (and, of course, even if an honest assessment there's nothing to say they can't be persuaded or ordered to deliver 2 full seasons) that suggests to me that they have a pretty good idea how they're getting "from here to there".

It may be that some things which we book-readers think are going to be (or ought to be) significant are going to be relegated to off-screen occurrences.  It may mean that some they and Martin have invested screen-time and pages, respectively, are going to come not naught.  But given the relatively limited time constraints that D&D have announced for themselves, I'm assuming that everything we see this season is there for a reason.

[Umbelina]

I loved Howland stabbing him in the back.  One of the things I do like about GRRM's writing is the way he debunks and exposes the myth of "honor" in war, or of soldiers being heroes, instead of the reality, men killing men in any way possible, survival and winning trumping silly ideas like "honor" every damn time, because war isn't honorable, it's horrible. 

That was definitely an important thing for Bran to learn. 

[Avaleigh]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

Glad the Qyburn and the kids scene wasn't as creepy as first feared.  I'm still annoyed that Jaime is completely behind Cersei in what she's doing.  Hopefully, as Cersei becomes more and more unhinged (which we are seeing signs of) he'll FINALLY turn away from her.  Nice to see Olenna back and King's Landing is filled with interesting characters again.

I thought they had a missed opportunity to start the process of dividing Jaime and Cersei again. I think Kevan could have told Jaime that he has a place on the Small Council but Cersei absolutely does not and that they'll leave if she doesn't leave. Have Jaime agree to stay and have her annoyed that he doesn't object to her not having the right to be there too. 

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Despite some changes, the Tower of Joy was awesome.  Great fight.  Ser Arthur was a badass and I kind of laughed at Bran's disappointment to realize that Ned didn't actually defeat him in that fight.  

I wonder if Ned thought of Ser Arthur during the fight with Jaime in King's Landing. I immediately thought of that Lannister soldier intervening and stabbing Ned in the back of his leg. I liked the fight scene and liked the actor they got to play Dayne. I thought it was exciting.

Dawn not being shiny or having any special glow makes me think that they don't want to take away from Lightbringer whenever the real Lightbringer ends up being introduced. 

[AuntieMame]

10 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

I am pretty sure this was specifically referenced in the books. In Essos, Varys' little mice were taught to read specifically so they could steal the secrets of powerful men without taking anything to alert them it has been found out. Reading and writing go hand in hand so it's not a stretch to think they write. And I can't quote you where, but Varys definitely references his birds having no tongues. I guess I don't see what is so non-nonsensical about it (other than the over the top fantasy aspect of it, but that permeates the books in the minor details).

I'm not doubting your facts, but it seems a character assassination of Carts, who has been shown to be a kind and honorable man at the end of the day. Much has been made of the fact that he serves the realm and the overall good of same. A big deal was made of the fact that Faegon was trained to be an honorable leader who would serve the realm and the people, whoever he turns out to be in point of fact. While Varys' s little birds are dressed and trained to go unnoticed, I had the impression they were well cared for in Varys' s service. I know Varys is an ends justifies means guy, but only for a purpose. The cutting of tongues ultimately serves no purpose as it wouldn't even be effective. Varys is all about the effective. As you say, an OTT fantasy element. It's just there are so many of these clangers that even the small ones are bothering me. 

Twins at the Tower of Joy? Really? I love the old Shakespearean plot devices, but another hidden baby? Will Meera end up being Nisei Nisei? Jon's full sibling? Though Arya never gave a tinker' s damn about the half. 

[Oscirus]

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I wonder if Ned thought of Ser Arthur during the fight with Jaime in King's Landing. I immediately thought of that Lannister soldier intervening and stabbing Ned in the back of his leg. I liked the fight scene and liked the actor they got to play Dayne. I thought it was exciting.

So did I. I also wonder what Ned was thinking when Jaime didn't use that to his advantage.

[sacrebleu]

I'm still a little shocked that they didn't give Ollena more to do (that's got to be one of the easiest paychecks Dame Diana has ever earned)

I want to believe that Rickon and Shaggy are decoys and that the Umbers are sticking it to Ramsay-- but yeah, knowing the kind of monster Ramsay is, who would put a child in his path? I mean Umber knows he just killed his own father, and he hands him a wildling woman and the real (or fake) Stark heir??

[fallaway]

1 hour ago, sacrebleu said:

I'm still a little shocked that they didn't give Ollena more to do (that's got to be one of the easiest paychecks Dame Diana has ever earned)

I want to believe that Rickon and Shaggy are decoys and that the Umbers are sticking it to Ramsay-- but yeah, knowing the kind of monster Ramsay is, who would put a child in his path? I mean Umber knows he just killed his own father, and he hands him a wildling woman and the real (or fake) Stark heir??

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Maybe the Umbers and Osha and Rickon have been training for this since they joined forces. Maybe there are sympathic Umber/wildling forces just out of detectable range. Maybe there are other besides the poor old flayed woman, who "remember".

Can't wait until next week!

ETA: Meant to comment on the King's Landing storyline. The Jaime/Cersei split is crucial, so it's interesting that they seem closer than ever in the show, other than Jaime's misgivings about "Ser Gregor". There's no indication that Jaime will be sent out to the Riverlands or elsewhere in pursuit of the Blackfish or for any other reason, but it's hard to believe that such a major plot development (Jaime hating Cersei, not believing her, not returning her correspondence, not responding in a time a need) would be left out.

Edited May 9, 2016 by fallaway

[nksarmi]

I don't think Umber is fooling around, but I do hope his loyalty is easily swayed when Jon explains why he led an army of wildlings South of the wall. Umber wouldn't bow to Ramsey and he wouldn't swear him any oaths. He feels betrayed and he wants to protect his home. I'm sure he will come to regret that choice - he should have gone to the Wall himself to demand Jon explain. He might not have believed the accounts of the Others, but I bet being around for Jon's resurrection would have made him rethink who he turned Rickon and Osho over to.

That head was too small to be a Dire Wolf but I still don't think it's a sign that they are double dealing.

[VCRTracking]

Quote

The Tower of Joy, that was the dumbest fight scene.  Instead of wielding Dawn, Arthur was a cheesy show-off with two swords.

I think the reality of swordfighting is, one big sword is not going to help if you're encircled by four people.

Someone on Twitter said the Waif training/abusing Arya looks like Lena Dunham and now I can't unsee it.

Edited May 9, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Game Of Thrones Says: Treat Yo' Self

Walk away from your job! Refuse to kneel! Fart in a meeting! No one's going to judge. (Actually, somebody might.)

[glowbug]

The idea that Varys' little birds can read and write and have no tongues comes from one of Arya's chapters in A Game of Thrones where she overhears Varys and Illyrio Mopatis talking. Here is the exact quote:

Quote

“What I can do, I will,” the one with the torch said softly. “I must have gold, and another fifty birds.”
She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow.
“So many?” The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. “The ones you need are hard to find … so young, to know their letters … perhaps older … not die so easy …”
“No. The younger are safer … treat them gently …”
“…   if they kept their tongues …”
“…   the risk …”

There may be other references as well. I'm not sure.

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Tara Ariano said:

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Game Of Thrones Says: Treat Yo' Self

Walk away from your job! Refuse to kneel! Fart in a meeting! No one's going to judge. (Actually, somebody might.)

Loved it, especially this:
 

Quote

 

Just Call Me The Sword Of The Morning, Baby

Bran and the Three-Eyed Raven are taking another trip into the Pensieve! I mean, the completely non-Harry Potter-related memory visitation device thingy! And holy shit, if you thought the last outing was eventful, wait until you see what's (almost) in store this time around!

 

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, fallaway said:

ETA: Meant to comment on the King's Landing storyline. The Jaime/Cersei split is crucial, so it's interesting that they seem closer than ever in the show, other than Jaime's misgiving's about "Ser Gregor". There's no indication that Jaime will be sent out to the Riverlands or elsewhere in pursuit of the Blackfish or for any other reason, but it's hard to believe that such a major plot development (Jaime hating Cersei, not believing her, not returning her correspondence, not responding in a time a need) would be left out.

I'm hoping that he hasn't heard about Lancel yet and that might get the ball rolling. ETA: Actually that doesn't make sense because fornicating with Lancel is the only crime she confessed to, right? Damn, I have no idea then what's going to cause the break. Something has to I agree. It'll be so disappointing if this doesn't happen.

Quote

The Tyrion scene made me cringe.  Drinking games?  Really? It felt so out of place in this world.

I liked it because it was a callback to the scene where he played the drinking game with Shae and Bronn. I didn't like the character of Shae but seeing how Missandei and Grey Worm reacted to Tyrion suggesting that they talk just made them seem like the two of the most boring people. It wasn't that they didn't want to drink. It was that they had nothing interesting to say. No interesting reveals about either character, just the two of them staring at Tyrion like he's mad for suggesting that they talk. 

When Tyrion played the game with Bronn we found out that he'd been north of the Wall. I thought that was a cool little reveal and was hoping that we might get some interesting tidbit of info on Missandei or Grey Worm but I guess that was too much to hope for. 

I wish that we'd skipped Sam and Gilly's voyage and they'd just picked up with them getting off of the boat. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Avaleigh

[ElsieH]

Where *is* Bronn? I've been wondering since Jamie didn't come back him but too lazy to rewatch last season. Did he not make it out of Dorne?

[mac123x]

14 minutes ago, glowbug said:

The idea that Varys' little birds can read and write and have no tongues comes from one of Arya's chapters in A Game of Thrones where she overhears Varys and Illyrio Mopatis talking. Here is the exact quote:

There may be other references as well. I'm not sure.

I think that's open to interpretation.  Varys says "treat them gently".  Not sure how having their tongues removed could be considered "gentle".  "If they kept their tongues" could mean "if they hold their tongues" i.e., didn't talk.  Plus it's a fractured conversation overheard by a 10 year old who didn't know the context. 

 

ETA:

 

Bronn was on the ship with Jaime that left Dorne.  They had that godawful scene with the Sand Snakes where Tyene told him what he needed.  I didn't see if he was on the boat with Jaime when he was bring Myrcella's corpse to shore.

Edited May 9, 2016 by mac123x

[Sunnydayman]

Jon is back.  I would have liked the entire episode to focus on him.

The story moves ever so slowly.  I like Sam and Gilly but I don't see what they do for the plot.

Arya is one of my favorite characters but her little story isn't advancing.  The Waif seems to be a sadist whose death I will appreciate.

Dany is pretty useless without her dragons.  I don't really need more scenes from Esos.

Littlejon Umber was overacting so his part has to be a ruse and I also don't think that Shaggydog is dead.  Osha is there to deal the killing blow to Ramsey.  The only dire wolves that have been killed were essentially betrayed by their humans.  

The story loses something by removing Jon and Arya as wargs.  Arya as a warg is more of a force without it she is just a child assassin.  Jon as a warg might be able to influence the Walkers.

I'm ready for all the Lannisters to die.  Cersei is poised to return to her evil ways.  I know that many are frustrated with Jamie's character being sacrificed for Cersei's.  The guy is just a pretty killer.  The Jamie/Brienne story never moved me.  

Diana Rigg is enjoyable to watch.  I will take her over Dorne any day.

Ser Alister never seemed as bad to me as the story lets on.  He had every right not to like the Starks for all the bloodshed their honor wrought up Westeros. He met his end with dignity.  

Olly was high on my death list but there are many names to go.

[Avaleigh]

Regarding Shaggydog being alive--maybe this is grasping at straws but shouldn't Ghost and Summer have been howling? They'd know if their brother was dead. I guess it's probably asking too much for the showrunners to include a mention of the direwolves being disturbed but I'm hoping maybe they weren't shown howling or we didn't get a mention of it because it wasn't really Shaggydog. 

Rickon did look pretty broken up about it, but I haven't given up hope completely. I think some compelling arguments have been made.

[Skeeter22]

The North really is the only consistently interesting story this season. I'm glad they let Alliser Thorne keep his dignity on the way out. Owen Teale gave him a complexity he didn't really have in the books. While I'm glad Olly is done, his death felt more like fanservice to me than anything else. He was just a total failure as a character from start to finish. 

 

It's interesting to me the way they've chosen to soft-pedal Varys. Now his "Little Birds" are just adorable moppets he bribes with candy. 

[Black Knight]

Well, they sure fooled me with the ep title. I thought "Oathbreaker" would refer to Brienne, and I was happy to see that it ended up being Jon. Now that he's walked away from the NW, this is the most interested I've ever been in Jon. I'm ready to not have Wall/NW stuff for a little while.

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Well, they sure fooled me with the ep title. I thought "Oathbreaker" would refer to Brienne, and I was happy to see that it ended up being Jon. Now that he's walked away from the NW, this is the most interested I've ever been in Jon. I'm ready to not have Wall/NW stuff for a little while.

I have no idea who broke their oath.  Jon died, fulfilling his oath, so who was it supposed to be?  Him anyway?

[mac123x]

Could make for some interesting dialog.

Sam:  "You broke your vows."

Jon:  "I'm not."

Sam:  "'Night falls, and now my watch begins.  It shall not end until my death.'  You're not dead."

Jon: "I'm not now, but I was."

Sam:  "You were what?"

Jon: "Dead."

Sam:  "You were dead?"

Jon: "I got better."

[Paradigm14]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Rhaegar using his best fighter to guard a woman that was never in any really danger shows just how stupid/arrogant that he was. I really want them to hurry up with the reveal so we can find out what the real importance of his parentage is. I hope it's not just something crown related.

Well, what do you think Robert Baratheon would have done if he discovered that Lyanna had left intentionally and had married Rhaegar?

[Wulfsige]

There are a few who could be considered oath breakers in this episode, depending how you look at it. Jon's oath to the NW is broken, not necessarily by him, but by his death. Arya is 'no one' and (it appears) is giving up on her avowed kill list. No idea what Umber is doing but there's got to be several broken oaths in there. Dany's plan of sweeping through the world and ruling it/freeing it has ended in the old folks' home. (Only for the moment, of course, or at least I assume that's not where her story ends.) The woman who's tattling to Varys switched sides. Varys' little birds have switched allegiances. There may be a few more. I grant you, broken promises and treachery are the norm on the show, I don't know if there were more than normal on this episode.