S06.E02: Home

[Audreythe2nd]

12 hours ago, glowbug said:

I know it's been speculated that he doesn't yet know about Lancel, but I'm wondering how can he not? He knows about the walk of shame so likely he knows the reason why. Perhaps Cersei told him she was lying and only confessed in order to escape imprisonment.

It's likely this. And Lancel's still skulking around KL which feels like a gun about to go off in this respect.

I liked the Jaime/High Septon scene. That was shades of book-Jaime, while at the same time showing that he is no longer a hothead who resorts to violence, for all his bravado.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[anyanka323]

6 hours ago, spinxella said:

 

Ghost looked so beautiful sleeping peacefully.

Honestly, I'm just ridiculously happy that Ghost survived this episode. No Wolfie sacrifice!

I want him to snack on that treacherous little tween Ollie and then rip out Ramsey's throat.

That would be a fitting end for Ramsay with his preferred method of using his dogs to either dispose of bodies or kill people.  I may be mistaken, but I don't think the show showed Grey Wind attacking people, only described it in dialogue. 

[wallflower75]

First time in this forum, hope you don't mind me joining in.  With regards to Walder Frey breaking his alliance with the Boltons because Ramsay killed his daughter and grandson--I don't know that I see it playing out that way.  But I may be seeing it that way because of the book--Walder has so many descendants, legitimate and otherwise, that I don't know that Walda's loss will impact him as much as we'd like to think it would.

I have a question that doesn't have much to do with this episode, but with the storyline overall...refresh my memory, but when she married Ramsay, was the issue of Sansa's marriage to Tyrion addressed on this show?  I realize that we're not dealing with a society that would necessarily reject any Sansa/Ramsay offspring (pause for a shudder) for being illegitimate, but unless bigamy is legal in Westeros, or unless her marriage was considered null and void because Tyrion was convicted of killing Joffrey, Sansa's still married to Tyrion in the eyes of both the gods and men.

[Winnief]

Actually since Tyrion never consummated the marriage, that makes it possible to set it aside as LF pointed out.

[Haleth]

So the worst kept secret in television is exposed.  Welcome back, Jon!

Once again the standout for me was Alfie Allen.  That guy just kills in every scene he's in.  (No pun intended.)

So after the show a friend (bookreader) was madly texting me with the shocking question, "Is Tyrion a secret Targ???!!!"  So the arguing begins among readers and non readers.  Blech.  If true it's the second worst kept secret in television.

If Wyman Manderly turns out to be an ally of Ramsay and doesn't immediately support Jon and Sansa, I will be really pissed.  He's one of my favorite characters because of his unwavering loyalty to House Stark.  Like Doran Martell he's surprisingly layered for a minor character.  Smart, ruthless, biding his time, using what opportunity he has to strike a blow for his liege lord.  Don't take that away, show!

Winter is here.  Where are the raging blizzards?

[SeanC]

39 minutes ago, wallflower75 said:

I have a question that doesn't have much to do with this episode, but with the storyline overall...refresh my memory, but when she married Ramsay, was the issue of Sansa's marriage to Tyrion addressed on this show?  I realize that we're not dealing with a society that would necessarily reject any Sansa/Ramsay offspring (pause for a shudder) for being illegitimate, but unless bigamy is legal in Westeros, or unless her marriage was considered null and void because Tyrion was convicted of killing Joffrey, Sansa's still married to Tyrion in the eyes of both the gods and men.

It was addressed in a throwaway line from Littlefinger that Sansa can marry because Tyrion never consummated the marriage.

[Advance35]

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I hope the Vikings/Pirates story coming back doesn't mean they are actually important to the end story, but only that they offer cinematic filming.  I never cared about them, and frankly, except for Theon, always pretty much groaned when they showed up in yet another disconnected chapter.  Dorne?  I know some seriously loved that story, but again, I had a difficult time not just being annoyed that there was now yet another reason to not get back to the characters I already cared about. 

It seemed like they let the Iron Born go and then they were brought back.  I assume Euron/House Greyjoy will be heavily involved in one of the big events within the last few books.   They have always bored me though.  Vicatron or whatever his name is and even Asha, I find all of their chapters hard to get through. 

As for Dorne, I'm thinking The Sand Snakes are responsible for the death of one more major character, whether that's Tommen or someone else, I don't know.   

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I love watching the non book readers bitch about Arya's story being repetitive and boring.  Uh, yeah, try reading it.  It makes me wonder what the books will be like, since the show is moving everyone else forward pretty fast, but Arya just stagnates.

Good lord yes.  I would not have minded if this girl got the "Bran" treatment.  Sent off screen for a year and brought back after she's reached the end of her training.   A character I don't care about, in a place I mostly don't care about, surrounded by other characters I don't care about.   I'm just glad I'm not the only one bored with her.

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 Ramsay has been shown being very intelligent in both the shows and the books.

He's credited with "low cunning", but anyone who knows how to dissect and destroy another human being on a psychological level is scary intelligent.   He effectively brainwashed Theon for a time, through torture.   He's an intelligent sadist.   Roose Bolton was willing to stoop to things Robb Stark wasn't.   And their are depths that even Roose wouldn't go to, that Ramsay, happily would.   But I'm in the minority on THIS board because I found Roose to be rather flat.  He had a flat-lined hunger for power but he was never (for lack of a better word) alive enough to draw my interest or attention.  Shrughs.  Oh well.

[Ottis]

Is it just me, or has GoT suddenly become far more nonsensical, even within the world of fantasy? Look at last night:

- Raising people from the dead sure seems easy. A few repeated lines and some hair in the fire? Princess Bride required more effort. Why didn't the show give us the Red Witch having to sacrifice something to make that great an effort (her own sacrifice, preferably, or that of someone else)?

- Is The Mountain psychic? How does he know when someone slanders Cersei? A glimpse of a network a la The Spider would have helped.

 - Tyrion risks all to ... what? Free the dragons, who then ... skulked back into the darkness? Maybe Tyrion should have started with something less personally risky, to gain the dragons' favor? And the dragons, who we are told won't eat since Danny left, they are so upset they ... go take a nap?

- So Reek decides to what ... head back and kill a Bolton? What was that about? He had ample opportunity to kill the bastard before. What will be different this time?

- And Balon has ... a hallucination? Who was that? Literally a brother, as in younger, dead brother? Or "brother" as in countryman? Did Balon hallucinate and fall, or was someone actually there? And how would his daughter know either way? "We'll get whoever did this?" Did what? As far as she can tell, Balon fell off a rickity bridge in a storm.

- Speaking of Boltons, this is a small issue but ... won't the Bolton followers have an issue with a bastard succeeding their leader? Putting aside the lie about poison, there are rules around this kind of thing. We heard that the little prick is "always my firstborn," so I suppose that might suffice ... but it sure would have made it clearer if they show added a line or two about that being meaningful. Or someone else would have heard it.

- Hey, mom with the new baby ... at least run for the gate and thrust your baby outside it. Do something.

- Arya gets a pass, Her punishment is arbitrarily over.

It seems like every plot line is missing a scene that would explain why someone is behaving the way they are, or would make an action seem more sensible. This season I feel like I am saying, "What, now?" more than enjoying the show.

[Haleth]

Did Jon warg into Ghost while he was dead?  We'll never know.  It was never established that all the Stark kids have some degree of warging ability.  I don't think the show will ever address this.  

[stillshimpy]

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Let's see how many people will quit the show over a newborn being fed to dogs because that was more vile than any rape I've seen on this show.

 

So I did get up and just leave the damned room and stare out into the night as I listened to the carnage, because it isn't as if there was enough time for everyone to ramp up their dread-drives and starburst into the next galaxy.  That said?  

Yes, yes we all see what you did there, Show.  Don't expect a "well done" or a "good boy! Cookie?" on that.  Masses of people lost their minds (me included) over the burning of a nine-year-old girl as she shrieked for father (who was the one consigning her to the damned flames) and the show's response?  "Ya ain't seen nothin' yet....ready the helpless baby and some poor woman who was sold off to Roose Bolton."  

Bonus points for overly-sharing Maester "Apple-cheeked and healthy!"  I see what you did there too, Sadistic Show! Hardy-har.  Compared him to food, you did! Punny.  

Does Sansa even have the upper body strength to decapitate someone? It seems like a Theon vs. Rodrik Cassel situation. Not that Ramsay doesn't deserve to have someone hack at his head for half an hour to take it off, but...

If there was any justice, she'd get to kill him with a potato peeler.  Very, very slowly. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by stillshimpy

[mrspidey]

7 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Did Jon warg into Ghost while he was dead?  We'll never know.  It was never established that all the Stark kids have some degree of warging ability.  I don't think the show will ever address this.  

Probably in order to leave some wiggle room for George. 

But yeah, they did leave it ambigous. We don't even know for sure whether Mel deserves the credit.

[benteen]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, Jamie's story suffered the most on the TV show.  I really loved him in the books, and that was quite an accomplishment, considering in his first story he tried to throw Bran to his death.  I feel that the show writers wrote more for Cersei, because of the actress, and their story, but especially Jamie's, suffered because of that.

Yeah, D and D definitely have a fixation with Cersei, who they don't believe is evil.  Just a misunderstood, paranoid, rightfully bitter mom.  It's really come at the expense of Jaime's character.  They love Cersei while Jaime is "a monster who loves killing" based on an earlier comment they made about him in Season 2.  That description is much more apt to Cersei in the books.

NCW is not surprisingly excellent in his scene at the Sept.  I'll agree with an earlier poster that he was probably not arrested because he's a "cripple" that doesn't hold any real power.  Cersei does, Margarey does.  Even Loras on the show is the heir to Highgarden so that gives him power.  Jaime is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, a "glorified bodyguard" to quote Tywin during Season 1.  So he's pretty much looked down upon by the High Sparrow.

I'm not sympathizing with Cersei but I can't wait to see that increasingly smug smile knocked off the High Sparrow's face.

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I love watching the non book readers bitch about Arya's story being repetitive and boring.  Uh, yeah, try reading it.  It makes me wonder what the books will be like, since the show is moving everyone else forward pretty fast, but Arya just stagnates.

Heheh, I hear you.  The sad part is GRRM has said he loves Arya's storyline in Braavos and could write about it all day.

Agreed that the Theon thing is odd.  He doesn't want to be forgiven and believe he deserves his punishment.  Great, then escort Sansa to the Wall and then accept that Jon will kill you.  Hell, I thought he was going to ask Brienne to behead him.  It would have worked since Oathkeeper is made from Ned's old greatsword.  But apparently Theon doesn't want to die.  Theon will no doubt make the Iron Islands stuff more interesting but I always liked him interacting with the Starks a lot more.

For the record, the current Iron Islands storyline is already a lot better than the entire Dorne storyline.

[stillshimpy]

So after the show a friend (bookreader) was madly texting me with the shocking question, "Is Tyrion a secret Targ???!!!"  So the arguing begins among readers and non readers.  Blech.  If true it's the second worst kept secret in television.

Oh God, that didn't even occur to me.  Now it will not un-occur.  I loved Dinklage's impressive acting against tennis balls, or whatever stood in for the dragons.   I was pretty sure that Tyrion wasn't going to end up like Quentyn the Crysp but I didn't actually think "Oh that's right, wasn't Aerys supposed to have had a thing for Johanna?"  

Also, I didn't actually think much about Meera being told Bran would not always be in that cave, but I assume he's going to have to face the Night King at some point.  

I was more caught by the whole thing where the books made a giant deal out of how unconscionable it was for a warg to take over a person and here we learned that Hodor was actually Willis.  Show Bran has warged Hodor, but I can't figure out where they might be taking that other than...I wonder if Bran will leave the cave via Hodor, with Hodor's consent? 

[CherryMalotte]

My random thought this morning with the show...Max Freaking Von Sydow.  How lucky is Isaac Hempstead Wright being able to work with him, even if it's not for more than a couple of episodes?  Wow.  

[Haleth]

A little bit of fan service in the Balon funeral scene... we get to meet Damphair without him being named.  Loved when A̶s̶h̶a̶ Yara was arguing with her father and said the line about the mainland being nothing but pinecones and (something), like she does at the Kingsmoot in the book.

[benteen]

On the subject of the Bolton storyline, I do agree about Walda.  The gate's open.  She's not going to get far but can you at least try to run for your life?

It was kind of implied (though this might have been for show) in the books that Roose was pretty much holding Big Walder and Little Walder for hostages and it's made clear to Lord Walder.

Interesting that Karstark was okay with killing Roose since Roose is the man who "avenged' his father by killing Robb.

A gold star for Roose's "I didn't think Lady Sansa killed them all by herself."

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Ramsay has been shown being very intelligent in both the shows and the books.

Ramsay is clever in the books, that's for certain.  Sadistic savage that he is, he shows an ability to improvise quickly (escaping death from Ser Rodrik and his men) and a commitment to playing the long game (posing as Reek for weeks at Winterfell).  He also broke Theon and was able to use him as a tool against his own people at Moat Cailin.  So he's a lot smarter than he looks.  Where the show has gone over-the-top is with SUPER RAMSAY, the man who can defeat any army with his shirt off and execute any plan no matter what the circumstances.

Edited May 2, 2016 by benteen

[cryptaknight]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

Is it just me, or has GoT suddenly become far more nonsensical, even within the world of fantasy? Look at last night:

- Raising people from the dead sure seems easy. A few repeated lines and some hair in the fire? Princess Bride required more effort. Why didn't the show give us the Red Witch having to sacrifice something to make that great an effort (her own sacrifice, preferably, or that of someone else)?

- Is The Mountain psychic? How does he know when someone slanders Cersei? A glimpse of a network a la The Spider would have helped.

 - Tyrion risks all to ... what? Free the dragons, who then ... skulked back into the darkness? Maybe Tyrion should have started with something less personally risky, to gain the dragons' favor? And the dragons, who we are told won't eat since Danny left, they are so upset they ... go take a nap?

- So Reek decides to what ... head back and kill a Bolton? What was that about? He had ample opportunity to kill the bastard before. What will be different this time?

- And Balon has ... a hallucination? Who was that? Literally a brother, as in younger, dead brother? Or "brother" as in countryman? Did Balon hallucinate and fall, or was someone actually there? And how would his daughter know either way? "We'll get whoever did this?" Did what? As far as she can tell, Balon fell off a rickity bridge in a storm.

- Speaking of Boltons, this is a small issue but ... won't the Bolton followers have an issue with a bastard succeeding their leader? Putting aside the lie about poison, there are rules around this kind of thing. We heard that the little prick is "always my firstborn," so I suppose that might suffice ... but it sure would have made it clearer if they show added a line or two about that being meaningful. Or someone else would have heard it.

- Hey, mom with the new baby ... at least run for the gate and thrust your baby outside it. Do something.

- Arya gets a pass, Her punishment is arbitrarily over.

It seems like every plot line is missing a scene that would explain why someone is behaving the way they are, or would make an action seem more sensible. This season I feel like I am saying, "What, now?" more than enjoying the show.

I'm with the people who think that either Shireen's death fueled Jon's resurrection, or that Ghost played a role (warging or otherwise).

I assumed that Mountainstein overheard the man telling his story. It was just a visual shortcut to let the viewer know that he is devoted to Cersei.

The dragons went out the same way they were put down there and chained. They didn't stroll down the stairs.

Theon said he was going home. That could mean the Iron Islands; that could mean Winterfell. We don't know yet. I wouldn't mind seeing him kill Ramsay, but I think he'd be too frightened and he'd know he'd never make it past Ramsay's men. So, imo, the Iron Islands are more likely.

Balon saw his actual brother Euron, an actual living person. I don't know how Asha/Yara knew he was thrown, except maybe he's navigated that bridge a billion times in his life and she felt a fall was unlikely.

Ramsay was legitimized. He is a Bolton and the official heir to the house. That's been covered multiple times over the course of the series.

Would the baby have outlived his mother by much if Walda, who had no reason to suspect what Ramsay was about to do until he did it, had thrown him outside of the gate? It was more preposterous to me that she was up and dressed and walking around so soon after giving birth than her not hatching some miraculous escape from a kennel surrounded by Ramsay's men.

Did you want multiple episodes of blind Arya the beggar, getting beaten with a stick? I'm personally glad they are advancing her story.

Edited May 2, 2016 by cryptaknight

[GrailKing]

8 hours ago, Andromeda said:

It felt like the fans had written it. Far too easy -- and I'd prefer Davos be all about getting Shireen back, not Jon. What's his fixation with Jon and the Night's Watch anyway? And he hated and distrusted Melisandre and her magic, from page 1. So that all feels false to me.

Loved seeing Tyrion with the dragons. I was hoping he'd be the one to tame them -- he's smart and well-read, so I expected he'd picked up something valuable he could share. 

I missed Dany, but enjoyed everything else.

 

7 hours ago, J----av said:

 

 This is what bothers me too. Davos and SHireen had one of the closest relationships in the whole show, but Davos hasn't even acknowledged her death (or Stannis's really) and is all about Jon for some reason. It makes no sense

How is he going to get ashes back?, he knows both Shireen and Stannis are dead, he doesn't yet know how Shireen died

but he will when he finds the carved stag

not only has he seen what Melasandre can and did do, but he was with Stannis when he saw mammoths and giants,and direwolves etc, along with Mel telling Stannis that Davos was needed for what's to come, he may not have believed her words before, but he now believes something is coming that has never been seen or heard about except in books and songs and he is up close and personal to it.

Your vengeance for Shireen may or may not come, story wise it isn't time yet.

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Well, he did walk to the very center of the untrampled circle though, and that is where Dani would have been standing.  It didn't bug me.

No, he walked like two feet in, visually surveyed the area then looked down and had a oh look what I found moment, he never went to the center of the circle.

[CofCinci]

This episode not only adds more fuel to the "Tyrion is a Targ" theory -- but it also adds to the "Varys is a Merling" theory as well.  All the ships were burned without anyone on the docks seeing anyone. Varys, or another Merling, swam up to the boats and set them on fire. 

[Paws]

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I assumed that Mountainstein overheard the man telling his story. It was just a visual shortcut to let the viewer know that he is devoted to Cersei.

I think the man telling the story was the one who flashed his junk to Cersei during her Walk of Shame

[WatchrTina]

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

As a Stark, the person who delivers the sentence has to carry it out.  So in your scenario, Sansa would have to deliver the sentence.

I'm sure there is a work-around when the ruler is infirm or too young or not strong enough to wield a sword like Ice (which was HUGE) effectively.  I'd pay good money to see Brienne step in to wield the sword on Sansa's behalf, beheading Ramsey.

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I think the man telling the story was the one who flashed his junk to Cersei during her Walk of Shame

Oh I like that interpretation.  I had fan-wanked that lots of people were talking smack about Cersei and she knew it so she sent him out to find one and make an example of him.

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Mountainstein

Oh this is genius.  That MUST be his name on the boards from now on.  (Maybe it is already?  I've been away.)

Edited May 2, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, wallflower75 said:

First time in this forum, hope you don't mind me joining in.  With regards to Walder Frey breaking his alliance with the Boltons because Ramsay killed his daughter and grandson--I don't know that I see it playing out that way.  But I may be seeing it that way because of the book--Walder has so many descendants, legitimate and otherwise, that I don't know that Walda's loss will impact him as much as we'd like to think it would.

I have a question that doesn't have much to do with this episode, but with the storyline overall...refresh my memory, but when she married Ramsay, was the issue of Sansa's marriage to Tyrion addressed on this show?  I realize that we're not dealing with a society that would necessarily reject any Sansa/Ramsay offspring (pause for a shudder) for being illegitimate, but unless bigamy is legal in Westeros, or unless her marriage was considered null and void because Tyrion was convicted of killing Joffrey, Sansa's still married to Tyrion in the eyes of both the gods and men.

There was one line of dialogue from Littlefinger to Roose in Season 5 saying that the marriage wasn't consummated, so by the law of the land Sansa is no man's wife. Weirdly, Lysa tells Sansa in Season 4 that when Tyrion is executed she'll "be free to marry Robin," despite knowing that the marriage wasn't consummated, which implies that Sansa WON'T be free to remarry until Tyrion is dead, non-consummation or not, and Tyrion and Sansa in Season 4 in private never acted as if they weren't actually married despite knowing that the marriage was unconsummated (Tyrion called Sansa his wife to Pod and Sansa didn't correct Littlefinger when he referred to Tyrion as Sansa's husband), but I think that the writers just did whatever they had to do to put Sansa in a position where she could marry Ramsay for plot purposes. Book Tywin nagged Tyrion about consummation so that the marriage couldn't be annulled, but TV Tywin was pressuring Tyrion to consummate not out of fear that the marriage wasn't yet valid, but because he wanted them to have an heir posthaste.

Sophie Turner talked about Sansa's marital status recently for a New York Times interview and she said more or less "I thought she was married to Tyrion, so I don't know how she could marry Ramsay, LOL who even knows anymore."

More broadly speaking, I think if Ramsay dies and Sansa isn't pregnant or if Sansa dies, the whole issue goes away at any rate. I don't think her marriage to Tyrion was annulled by virtue of marrying Ramsay, though. I think it was sort of, at least if I understand Littlefinger's logic, not completed (no consummation). So if Ramsay dies, either Sansa will go back to having her "half-marriage" with Tyrion, where they married but it was never completed, or the writers will make up new rules (if you marry another guy when you have an unconsummated marriage, then that marriage automatically renders the first marriage null and void) as it suits the plot.

Sophie Turner also said in three separate interviews recently that Brienne is the first person on Sansa's side since Tyrion, which seems like an odd thing to say let alone repeat twice unless she's parroting show dialogue (since I've noticed that sometimes weird things GOT actors say about their characters turn out to be taken from lines of dialogue that pop up later), so maybe the status of the marriage will be addressed at some point during the season.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

10 minutes ago, Paws said:

I think the man telling the story was the one who flashed his junk to Cersei during her Walk of Shame

That's who he is, I'm sure Cersei loved that so she had RS pay a visit.

[vibeology]

36 minutes ago, cryptaknight said:

Ramsay was legitimized. He is a Bolton and the official heir to the house. That's been covered multiple times over the course of the series.

Even legitimized, I have a very hard time believing the Northern Houses will happily go along with him as their leader for too long. The Karstarks, the Umbers and the Manderleys are old, powerful families who have gone out of their way to maintain their names, land, nobility and Ramsay is the son of a dead lord and some random woman. He has no familial allies like brothers, cousins, uncles to help him hold onto his power and he doesn't have Sansa anymore to give him some of the Stark magic that all the Northern families seem to respect. He's the boss only until one of the other families of the North come up with a plan to take over and I do believe at least one of those families will try. They don't respect Ramsay and they have no reason to care if he was legitimized or not. If it isn't a Stark in power, then it can be anyone.

[forum4idiots]

give credit where credit is due.  when bran said, "i was happy there" .....it was so sad how he said it.  great acting in this episode by many casts.  arya's scene....heartbreaking.

[GrailKing]

As far as Theon and Sansa splitting up, it's like the books except Fake Arya is with the mormont woman heading north and Theon still a prisoner with Stannis;  Asha must be planning something because she's goading Stannis to sacrafice her brother.

As far as Theon going "home" it's the Iron Island, the cut goes there right after Sansa and Theon embrace.

In book and show Theon is needed to invalidate the first Kingsmoot.

[nodorothyparker]

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It makes sense to me. First of all, Davos isn't much to talk about his own grief; he barely talks about Matthos, a son he loved deeply. On the other point, Davos, to me, at this point seems like a guy who's probably looking for some good news. The man he followed with unmatched loyalty and devotion is dead, and the girl he loved like a daughter is dead too (or so he probably surmised from Melisandre's bleak look in response to his asking about them). He has nothing to live for and no one to fight for, and he needs that. He needs something to hold on to or else he's going to succumb to the same despair as Melisandre and Jon's loyal followers. He can't do anything for either Stannis or Shireen, but he can do something, or at least try to do something, in this terrible situation he's found himself in. Everyone around him is grieving, desperate, and broken, and he's trying to do something constructive to fix this situation, because he can't fix what happened to Stannis, and he can't fix what happened to Shireen. He's not doing this so much for Jon, since I agree he doesn't seem to hold any great or profound friendship for Jon, but for everyone, including himself. All of them need to have something to believe in, and Jon symbolizes that for him. Just like Tyrion with the dragons, Davos is making his own good news.

...or at least that's my sense of it.

I think this is part of it.  I also think it's really important here to remember that these people have been at war for a long time now.  They've seen a lot of death.  Davos lost his son earlier and now he's lost his entire reason for being in the North in the first place.  Stannis and Shireen have probably been dead for awhile and not in any place close.  There's nothing he can do for them now.  Grieving either of them now isn't going to do a thing for the NW guys who are about to die needlessly without some kind of intervention.

Again, he's no dummy.  Even if he wasn't at Hardhome, he can see with his own eyes what the situation is at the Wall, that something very bad is obviously coming, and that Jon was the one person who was trying to save a lot of people that Thorne and his cohorts were perfectly willing to see die for no reason other than they were born on the wrong side of the Wall.  Unless he either intends to lay down and die or try to flee south on his own, he probably figures he might as well throw his lot in with the guys he can at least identify as still fighting for something.  He also knows that Mel's magic is real.  He may not have approved of it or of her in the past, but he's already lost pretty much everything so what's the worst that happens if it goes wrong now?  She can't kill a man who's already dead.

What happened to Shireen is indeed the most awful awful, but it won't surprise me if nothing more is ever made of it beyond maybe clarifying whether her sacrifice was in fact part of the "only death can pay for life" idea.  They've simply got bigger fish to fry now.  

[nksarmi]

Ya'll have been busy posting since last night!!! :)

I honestly thought they would have Jon walk out of a funeral prior ala Danny in season one. I thought Mel would fail and then they would light him up and he would live through the flames. Perhaps the writers ultimately thought this would be more surprising since that's kind of what we were expecting?

I was surprised by the Bolton family deaths. Not that they would happen, but that they happened so soon. Can't wait for Ramsey to die - don't really care who does it.

I was saddened that Ghost didn't get to kill anyone this episode. The mutineers got off easy. But I did like how quickly they surrendered. Hey Allister - if you don't like that Jon wants to let thousands of wildlings (who owe him their lives) through the Wall - then maybe don't open the gates! Dumb ass. And really - does a Lord Commander have to blatantly order someone NOT to kill him for that to be an understood act of loyalty?

I admit that I loved the scene with Tyrion unchaining the dragons and telling them the story about how he cried when his uncle told him they were all gone. I still don't believe he's a Targ, but absolutely loved the scene. I insist that Bran is going to warg a dragon (you won't walk again, but you will fly) and that's how Tyrion will ride one. I'm not letting go of that idea until I'm proven wrong.

Edited May 2, 2016 by nksarmi

[nachomama]

13 hours ago, SeanC said:

I don't really think this really major character beat with Davos lands all that well.  Why is he so fixated on Jon?  He's had like two scenes with him; I'm sure he likes him, but I haven't seen anything to justify why he's asking for Mel to try to bring him back from the dead.  They really should have had Davos go to Hardhome with Jon if this was the direction they were going to go.

Yeah I didn't get where Davos would have been that devoted to Jon Snow at this point. I got that he kept following Stannis and even if he knows Stannis is gone, not sure how he'd swing to "Jon Snow is the one" this quickly. And I was sorta leaning towards Jon coming back accidently, Melisandre trying to raise Stannis and the words "one true something, blah blah" and when they go to burn Jon's body he wakes up. It seems uncharacteristic for Melisandre to just be so defeated as well. either way, I'll take it. Jon Snow lives!

[kieyra]

Not much new;

Modern dialogue is no bueno. Get some help in the writers' room if you need to.

I don't understand the point of cutting corners while simultaneously introducing more and more plots, or spending way too much time on things like Ramsey Lecter. I guess they had to re-introduce the Ironborn so Theon could have his redemption arc in the end.  And I understand that it was an episode of clearing the decks. Seriously, though, I wish they'd get over the fascination with Ramsey. 

I understand that it can be fanwanked that Davos doesn't know yet that both Shireen and Stannis are dead, but that doesn't remove the oddness of him being all casual and friendly with Melisandre. And I don't like the way they hobbled her, requiring Davos (who hates her magic) to be the one who's all "Well, have you *tried* resurrecting him?" We already knew Melisandre saw something special in Jon, she shouldn't have taken so much convincing.

[RedheadZombie]

Tommen seems to be oblivious that Margaery is in jail because of Cersei's manipulations.  Is he still that naïve?

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, kieyra said:

I understand that it can be fanwanked that Davos doesn't know yet that both Shireen and Stannis are dead, but that doesn't remove the oddness of him being all casual and friendly with Melisandre. 

He does know they're dead.  He just doesn't know Mel's part in those events.

[proserpina65]

Quote

So the show has the Manderleys and the Karstarks with the Boltons? Really, and for how long?

In the books at least some of the Karstarks were allied with the Boltons, along with some of the Umbers, and the Manderleys were pretending to go along as well.

[CherryMalotte]

Julian Fellowes is going to write for Game of Thrones?

Oh seven hells...I'd rather be in a Red Keep dungeon for a year than spend time I'm never going to get back watching anything he'd write again.

[Joan van Snark]

I am sensing danger.....the show seems to be on the same track as last season, which was by most accounts a significant dropoff from the previous seasons.  It seems like the showrunners are a little lost without being able to use the book as source material.  Everything is happening way too fast and a little too conveniently.  First the ridiculous murders in Dorne and now the Roose and Fat Walda murders out of nowhere.  No scenes are allowed to develop organically---there is so much going on and so many characters to catch up on, that everything happens way too fast and proper motivations are not established.  I have always felt the show suffered somewhat because of the 10 episode per season thing.  Why does this show not get 13 episodes per season like almost every other show?  Is it because it is too expensive to film?

[proserpina65]

Quote

 the Cassells

Are there any Cassels left?

[Eyes High]

24 minutes ago, nachomama said:

Yeah I didn't get where Davos would have been that devoted to Jon Snow at this point. 

I don't think it's so much about Jon Snow, it's about what his death represents to the people around him: despair, grief, and a loss of faith. I think Davos is looking to create some good news for himself and the people around him, since they all need something and someone to believe in (especially with things going so spectacularly to shit). As well, I think TV Davos is a very caring, nurturing person, and when caring, nurturing people see someone in pain or in trouble, their first impulse is to try to fix it, regardless of their personal feelings. When Edd and company proposed a suicidal last stand, TV Davos could have been "LOL, good luck with that" and strolled out of Castle Black. Instead, he did everything he could to save their lives; it's not because he loved them, but because he's a caring person and he saw that they were grieving and not thinking straight.

10 minutes ago, Joan van Snark said:

Why does this show not get 13 episodes per season like almost every other show?  Is it because it is too expensive to film?

It's not expense, it's the production schedule. To get the episodes out in time for Emmy season, in between prep, production and post-production, they only have time for 10 episodes. Compounding the problem is the demand for bigger and better set pieces, which are longer and more complicated to film (battle sequences, huge crowd scenes, etc.). If they expanded to 13 episodes, they'd have to expand the production season, delay the release of the next season significantly, and miss an awards season, something HBO would never want to happen. (GOT lives or dies on its buzz, and fickle fans have short attention spans, so I believe there's a big push to have the seasons come out every year in the spring.)

D&D have said something to the effect that Season 6, from a production perspective, pushed them to the breaking point, again due to these huge set pieces. Thus, they are looking to have a shorter season next year, not a longer one (seven or six episodes instead of 10).

Edited May 2, 2016 by Eyes High

[benteen]

2 hours ago, CherryMalotte said:

My random thought this morning with the show...Max Freaking Von Sydow.  How lucky is Isaac Hempstead Wright being able to work with him, even if it's not for more than a couple of episodes?  Wow.  

Absolutely.  It's got to be a great experience for them like it was for the actors who worked with MVS in Star Wars The Force Awakens.  I think MVS has been making movies since 1949, which is amazing.  It's great to see at his age he's still getting high-profile roles in both SW and GOT.

[Eyes High]

21 minutes ago, benteen said:

Absolutely.  It's got to be a great experience for them like it was for the actors who worked with MVS in Star Wars The Force Awakens.  I think MVS has been making movies since 1949, which is amazing.  It's great to see at his age he's still getting high-profile roles in both SW and GOT.

IHW said that MVS has the ability to make even the simplest lines--like "He's over there"--sound meaningful and profound. I loved, loved, loved Bloodraven's line this episode about how it's beautiful under the sea, but if you stay too long you'll drown and MVS's sad, knowing line reading: vivid, evocative, and poetic. More of that, please, writers. A lot of the show-only dialogue in GOT is rather workmanlike--marching the characters from plot point A to plot point B--so I love it when there is beauty in the language.

As for Mel's spa treatment ritual, I kind of like that she clearly had no idea what she was doing and was making it up as she went along. "Sure, let's throw some beard hair in the fire, too, why not?"

Edited May 2, 2016 by Eyes High

[Boilergal]

2 hours ago, Ottis said:

Raising people from the dead sure seems easy. A few repeated lines and some hair in the fire? Princess Bride required more effort. Why didn't the show give us the Red Witch having to sacrifice something to make that great an effort (her own sacrifice, preferably, or that of someone else)?

IIRC - When The Hound sliced through Beric Dondarrion's shoulder, Thoros just chanted some Lord of Light prayer over him for a couple of minutes and Beric was back to being mostly himself talking about it being the 7th save, and loses a little of himself each time.

Mel giving Jon a spa treatment didn't seem necessary - but visually yummy.  Since Mel said she had never done it before, had only heard of it being done, she was making it up as she went along. 

Beric's wounds healed immediately after Thoros' prayer, whereas Jon's did not appear to heal at all, at least externally.  I'm leaning towards Ghost Warging - Mel did a little something - but it wasn't completely her doing.   If she did nothing would Jon have come back from Ghost on his own?

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

13 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I love the hint of pleasure on Sansa's face when Brienne told her that Arya was not only still alive but not dressed like a lady

Harking back to ages-old Television Without Pity threads, scrutinizing the sisters' post-separation references to one another.  Yes, it was heart-warming to see that little smile.  Acceptance and affection for the very differences that had had kept Sansa and Arya at odds.  Nicely done.

And the fandom sighs, once again, for a Stark sibling reunion.

[Raachel2008]

Quote

Even legitimized, I have a very hard time believing the Northern Houses will happily go along with him as their leader for too long. The Karstarks, the Umbers and the Manderleys are old, powerful families who have gone out of their way to maintain their names, land, nobility and Ramsay is the son of a dead lord and some random woman. He has no familial allies like brothers, cousins, uncles to help him hold onto his power and he doesn't have Sansa anymore to give him some of the Stark magic that all the Northern families seem to respect. He's the boss only until one of the other families of the North come up with a plan to take over and I do believe at least one of those families will try. They don't respect Ramsay and they have no reason to care if he was legitimized or not. If it isn't a Stark in power, then it can be anyone.

This a thousand times. Ramsay is a sociopath, and I do get that people may be afraid of him, but let's be honest, half of his power comes from the fact he is Bolton's bastard/first born. If Papa Bolton is dead, who cares? Just kill the little psycho and move on to another leadership in the North. No way Ramsay's minions wouldn't be willing to change sides, the thing with people like Ramsay is that they don't care about loyalty and will fuck anyone in their path, allies or not. This said, I think Ramsay was STOOPID. He could have killed his father and Walda, and kept the baby, being some sort of legal guardian or whatever and ruling until he found Sansa, or until something changed and he could be the "legal" king of the North.

This said, while I was horrified that he let the dogs eat a baby, I wasn't that horrified? Like someone upthread pointed, Ramsey is so cartoonish now that it is like watching a bloodbath in a Tarantino movie: you are shocked for five seconds, then you say 'next!'.

Looking forward to the Ironbonr mess. Lunatic I-am-the-storm missing young brother wants the throne and Yara has no claim unless the council decide? Love it, and here hoping this is the "feminist" plot I can relate.

Tyrion is the best, and Meereen is so more interesting with him in charge. Lovely story about the dragons. 

No Danaerys, and I didn't miss her at all. I still think the biggest mistake G.R.R.M. ever did was isolating her so much from the other plots happening in King's Landing and the North.  I honestly don't care and won't care until she is at the Wall.

Mixed feelings about Arya. I know where it is heading per the books, but I still want to see her revenge the hell out and be the one to take Cersei down. I also live for the day the Stark children reunite again (and show, it would be nice to know how Rickon is doing), Jon included.

Nice abs, Jon. Glad to see him back, though I was expecting him to come alive in the middle of a fire. So that means he is no Azor Ahai? Damn.

Sir Davos is LOVE. I hope they don't kill him.

Still hoping that Grandma Tyrell frees Margaery since Tommen is so weak and I'm not sure Cersei understandz that she has to get  Margaery back before she is so brainwashed she just join those fucking cultists.

Die Sept and co. JUST FUCKING DIE.

ETA: LYANNA!!! Can't wait for the others.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Raachel2008

[screamin]

I expect Karstark is planning to backstab Ramsey at some convenient point, once the North is fully fed up with him, with the hope that once House Stark is completely obliterated he himself will be considered a reasonable claimant for Winterfeill due to his distant Stark descent and his heroic ridding of the North of the plague of the Boltons, as he will tell it. Maybe the backstabbing will come at some point when Sansa seems on the point of being recaptured, so that Karstark can claim her for himself and strengthen his hold on Winterfell.

[forum4idiots]

davos' loyalty is not too far fetch....or rather, it's more a jon thing than it is davos.  although davos is portrayed as one of the more honorable characters in this show, seeing jon handle the wildlings and showing mercy towards the wildling king with the mercy killing.....it's no surprise.  but like i said...it is more of a jon thing.  thought the show was subtle about it, people seem to be drawn to him and "see something" in him.  the prior lord commander giving him the valyrian steel sword....the rarest of rare heirlooms he gives to a practical stranger.  melissandre saw something in him.  the wildlings.  the ginger wildling changed his tune about him.  his night watch brigade.  even stannis.  it is a recurring theme with jon.  he must have inherited it from his dad (am i'm not talking about ned, lol).

 

oh yeah...aboutthe religious fanatics........this is one instance i wouldn't mind cersei going to town on the massacre.  have fun with that cersei.  i fully endorse it....lol.

Edited May 2, 2016 by lovebug1975

[stillshimpy]

Quote

I assumed that Mountainstein overheard the man telling his story. It was just a visual shortcut to let the viewer know that he is devoted to Cersei.

 

According to Littlefinger in the first season, Cersei has her own network of spies, so I assumed that word got back to her and she deployed Mountainstein. 

When it comes to Davos being so fixated on resurrecting Jon, it makes perfect sense to me.  Stannis is dead, Shireen is dead and in the show, Davos has lost his family.  Loyalty means everything to him and I think he was just appalled that Jon was stabbed, by his own men, in such a cowardly fashion and with no chance to fight for himself. 

I don't think it was Jon, just as Jon, but the horrible injustice of it.  Davos has lost everything, what else is he to do but find something else to believe in? 

Edited May 2, 2016 by stillshimpy

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

On 5/2/2016 at 9:20 AM, stillshimpy said:

"Is Tyrion a secret Targ???!!!" *

 In my obsessive household, we cite to book-Cersei's creepy fascination with the destructive fire she started (burning down some portion of the Red Keep, or sumpin'), as evidence that CERSEI is the illegitimate child of the Mad King.  (And yes, Jamie too.  Patricide abounds.)  

Here's a good rabbit hole to fall into, on the Tyrion-as-secret-Targ question :   http://www.techinsider.io/tyrion-targaryen-theory-2016-4

* Actually, StillShimpy was only quoting a text cited and received by Haleth.

Edited May 3, 2016 by RimaTheBirdGirl

[Eyes High]

Vanity Fair pointed out some stuff I missed this episode:

1. Little Ned's words to Benjen--"Keep your shield up, or I'll ring your head like a bell"--are the same words Jon used when training Olly, which probably means that he heard them from Ned. Ouch.

2. The actor playing Young Rodrik Cassel isn't Ser Rodrik's actor's real-life son, Daniel Portman (Pod), but he looks a lot like him. Clever, clever, casting people.

3. The man who flashed Cersei in 5x10 is not played by the same actor as the guy bragging about flashing Cersei in 6x02. Vanity Fair opines that the fact that the bragger insisting that he's telling the truth and saying "You know me, I wouldn't lie about this" suggests that he is in fact lying.

No sex OR nudity in this episode! What is the world coming to?

Edited May 2, 2016 by Eyes High

[Spartan Girl]

It was awesome that we finally got to see Lyanna and how much like Arya she was.  I wonder if this means we're finally going to get confirmation of the theory that she really was Jon Snow's mother this season...

Speaking of fan theories, I don't know if Tyrion's rapport with the dragons means anything other than the logic that anyone that is loyal to DragonMommy doesn't get barbequed.  Still, it was pretty cool, and it makes me wish Dany hurries up and gets back to Mareen so she and Tyrion can have more scenes together...

They drink and snark

They drink and drink and snark

Drink, drink, drink!

Snark, snark, snark!

The Imp and Khaleesi shooooooooow!

[Haleth]

3 minutes ago, RimaTheBirdGirl said:

 In my obsessive household, we cite to book-Cersei's creepy fascination with the destructive fire she started (burning down some portion of the Red Keep, or sumpin'), as evidence that CERSEI is the illegitimate child of the Mad King.  (And yes, Jamie too.  Patricide abounds.)  

Here's a good rabbit hole to fall into, on the Tyrion-as-secret-Targ question :   http://www.techinsider.io/tyrion-targaryen-theory-2016-4

* Actually, StillShimpy was only quoting a text she received.

Actually it was a text I received although my friend didn't include all the ???s and !!!s. Incidentally, the tornado sirens were blaring as we were texting but some things are more important than others, right? ;)