S05.E20: Firebird

[retrograde]

How many times now have Emma and Hook said big emotional goodbyes ~*~forever~*~ now? It's growing a bit tiresome. This better be the last, either because he's dead or he returns but they retire this trope. 

I never thought I'd sympathise with Robin, but it's pretty incredible that Regina has forgiven the woman who raped him -- sister or not. Dump them all and move back to the forest, Robin.

[Mathius]

Yeah, looking back for Emma is metaphorically speaking, not literal.  She didn't look back in that she let him go and went forward.

[tennisgurl]

I honestly thought for most of the episode that it was Rumple screwing them over all the time, and not Hades. 

I loved the Stealthy cameo! I wish we has seen more of that kind of thing. Some bits of closure from former or minor characters from the past. 

I have been warming up to Zelena, but seeing Robin getting upset about her being with their daughter made me remember why I cannot deal with her. She is still a rapist, who has never apologized for what she did, and is now getting off without any real consequences, at least for now. This really is a problem with this show. They write things, then never bother really thinking about the implications of what they are writing, even if its things that the audience will often pick up on immediately. 

[InsertWordHere]

I like that Hook wanted to say his goodbye in private, without everyone watching.

I loved Regina saying the Blind Witch's magic was always "half-baked."

The reactions of David, Regina, and Henry to Hook not being able to return were nice and emotional. 

[KAOS Agent]

Finally an episode that I like. It was a character centric that still allowed for multiple stories to be told in the present that did not overly involve that character. And the plot moved forward! Plus, I drank a ton of rum before and during the episode and that helps immensely.

Some notes:

- True Love is only rare if you're Emma & Hook and your love will too easily solve the problem at hand.

- I liked Henry helping people figuring out their unfinished business. I'd love it if Henry mentions something to Bashful about it. Also, to whoever upthread who was complaining about them just leaving those people to suffer under Cruella - Henry left the book with all the finished pages behind just before they took their only exit out of the Underworld. He even said, "They'll find it." 

- Regina did have someone wanting revenge screw her over. Go Team Fuzzy Witch!

- I loved the Rumpel/Pan stuff. Those two screwing each other over is the best.

- Hate that Milah is forever doomed in the River of Lost Souls. Milah (and Auntie Em) deserved better.

- The timeline was wonky, but I liked Emma's backstory and how non-retconny it was. I particularly liked Emma trying to give Cleo's daughter the information and closure that she'd never gotten about her own parents.

- Robin has feelings! Who knew?

- I'm pleased that we got the Hook/Emma goodbye we would have gotten in Camelot had Emma not been compromised by the Darkness. See Emma is capable of allowing Hook agency and willing to let him go like he wanted. I'm done with them sacrificing each other for other people's happiness though. Stop it.

Edited May 2, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[ABitOFluff]

I agree though, as lovely as the CS goodbyes were (my god, I don't think I recall Colin ever tearing up that much), I really hope this is the last farewell they ever have to have. They've had more goodbyes than literally any other characters on the show.

Edited May 2, 2016 by ABitOFluff

[Camera One]

This episode felt fairly disjointed to me.  I felt I was being pelted by easy solutions and plot movement pulled out of the Writers' you know whats.  

Starting with Zelena and Hades' instant True Love's Kiss.  I laughed along with everyone else when Hook later proclaimed how rare true love is, and asking Emma how she can be sure they have it.  Seriously?  

So Hades got "free" of the Underworld, which is now without a ruler, and Zeus has noooooooo clue.  

I usually like call-backs, but the exact sequence with Emma running to the car and having her wheels locked, just like the pilot, left me cold.  She really needed to become a carbon copy of her mentor, didn't she.  So 2 years before the pilot, Emma was still an impulsive, heart-on-her-sleeve, trusting innocent.  But put on the jacket, and she turned into a hardened, jaded, ultra-realistic bailsbondsperson that we know and love.  Are we missing another origin story for the jacket, when it was accidentally laundered by Mickey Mouse in "Emotionally Closed Off" detergent?  

I knew I recognized the actress playing the mentor, but I'm glad I forgot it was "Heroes Reborn", or I would have hated her guts.

I can't believe they STILL tried the heart-splitting even though we on the forum already assumed it wouldn't work four months ago.  And now, they bring up Hook's non-preserved body, which none of our intrepid heroes even considered?  How dare the Writers use the phrase "laws of nature".

Rumple tricking Peter Pan was awesome, but knowing that Aunt Em was also suffering in the river of souls took away from it.

We don't get an explanation why Belle needed to be trapped in a box?  So what was the point of having the box at all?

Hades took extra steps to trap everyone, but did nothing to trap Rumple, who was the one who kidnapped Zelena.  He's out of the contract just like 1,2,3,A,B,C.  Great to be him.

I liked Henry wanting to help, but if he knew he could tell everyone their unfinished business, why wasn't he doing this in the last few episodes?  Now that Stealthy knows his unfinished business, how would he go about getting past it exactly?  I liked the concept but it was so poorly thought out.

I had to laugh when Robin wandered in halfway through the episode and went, "What's going on?" and then his concerns being waved aside, followed by him losing his heart while he "takes a moment".  The Writers need to take a moment and figure out how to make an episode flow instead of clunk its way along.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

We don't get an explanation why Belle needed to be trapped in a box?  So what was the point of having the box at all?

Yes! Why does Rumple need to trap Belle in Pandora's Box just to take her to Sb? He couldn't just carry her?

[KAOS Agent]

10 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Hades took extra steps to trap everyone, but did nothing to trap Rumple, who was the one who kidnapped Zelena.  He's out of the contract just like 1,2,3,A,B,C.  Great to be him.

Yes, this bothered me big time. The contract was this huge big thing. Gaston's suffering eternal torment, Belle stained her soul and put herself under a curse, it was the final straw that drove Milah to leave him and then Hades ripped up the contract just that easy. I hate it when things like that are just wiped away. And Rumpel walks away clean from the whole thing. 

[twoods]

Rumple double crossing his father was pretty shocking. First time I've liked him in some time.

No matter how many times CS have their goodbye scene, I still turn into a blubbering mess. This one may have affected me the most because Hook was crying a lot. Why can't they have their happy ending? 

Regina continues to be awesome this season. I know this is her redemption arc and people don't like it, but Lana is really selling it. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by twoods

[InsertWordHere]

12 minutes ago, Camera One said:

And now, they bring up Hook's non-preserved body, which none of our intrepid heroes even considered?  How dare the Writers use the phrase "laws of nature".

I can't believe no one did a preservation spell, even though Regina somehow did one on Daniel, who died before she was able to perform magic. Although perhaps the soul being in the Underworld for forty years helps explain why he came back wrong. Maybe it wasn't Dr. Frankenstein's Weird Science at all. None of this seemed to be a problem for Blue, who was dead for at least 10 hours and presumably embalmed. 

I don't really get the Box thing either, although I did like that Pan pronounced it PANdora's Box. 

[Camera One]

I forgot to mention the hands on the clocktower spinning fast enough to turn into an open portal for 15 minutes.  Talk about random...

Edited May 2, 2016 by Camera One

[Dianthus]

With even more happy feels for Regina and Zelena, I was like "Get on With It!"

When Zades got a TLK, I yelled "For Fuck's Sake!" at the TV.

No lie, though, I totally teared up at the good-bye scene. It reminded me of how Emma held Hook's hand as the EMTs were taking him away.

Poor Robin. Didn't he say something to Hook (?) at one point about being happy for the baby, but worried that it

might upset Regina?

Spoiler

Hook's soul is in a bottle, yeah? Wouldn't a flask be more appropriate?

Edited May 2, 2016 by Dianthus
added more

[KingOfHearts]

Emma flashbacks tend to get redundant. It's like the show has to reiterate repeatedly that Emma is someone who was betrayed or lost loved ones. I don't know how many negative experiences it takes to explain her walls, but you can the gist from her background or time with Neal. Emma seems to learn the same lesson each time in her flashbacks - don't trust or hang onto people. I'm not asking for more happy moments in her past, but I'd like something more three-dimensional than "Emma has walls and here's the justification". 

Her showing the girl her mother was a step in the right direction. I personally would like to see a flashback of one of her bailbondsperson cases. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

You get a TLK, and you get a TLK, and you're an asshole, but you still get a TLK. 

But I think the test was that she had to leave without going back for him, and trying to figure out how to get him back. And Hook will follow her. Orpheus had to go first, and Eurydice followed him. So I'm assuming this is the show's take on the myth.

LOL on the TLK comment. TLKs are forever ruined. Something that was supposed to be so powerful and rare, and they turned it into something utterly trite and meaningless. If Zades can have a TLK, then two wine glasses that clink into each other can have a TLK.

I can't go with the Orpheus/Eurydice parallel, because Orpheus knew that Eurydice was following him. Emma knew Hook wasn't.

I can't really talk about the ep too much or I might have an aneurysm, but suffice it to say I'm amid the wreckage of many, many tables. I think it utterly destroyed what was magical about CaptainSwan for me. In effect, they gave up on their love and hope and just let each other go. Yeah, super romantic and special. That's not the message I signed up for. As laughably ruined as TLKs are these days, their TLK moment was rushed and lacking in impact. And it wasn't about THEM so much as it was about HER. All that angst and pain this season for ... that?

This is the absolute worst show in terms of payoff I've ever had the misfortune to be emotionally invested in. Any saving of Hook will have absolutely nothing to do with Emma or their love. It'll be some meaningless random randomness.

[Camera One]

Quote

Any saving of Hook will have absolutely nothing to do with Emma or their love. It'll be some meaningless random randomness.

 

I'm guessing Emma will kiss Hook's body goodbye and he wakes up.  Because. 

 

Quote

It's like the show has to reiterate repeatedly that Emma is someone who was betrayed or lost loved ones.

 

In some ways, this flashback was similar in that Emma suffered a setback, hitting a dead-end with the search for her origins.  But it was also slightly different in that no one let Emma down, which was another recurring theme from her previous flashbacks.

I didn't like how they had Emma's actions unintentionally causing someone's death.  The scene with the daughter was nicely acted, but I don't like Emma having to feel guilty about something else.

The glass shard cause of death was a little far-fetched.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Camera One

[InsertWordHere]

Rewatching and Emma is "Someone who stole money from a couple convenience stores in Phoenix, got arrested, and took off on her bail." It's a new crime and not related to the watch crime. To be able to become a trial bail-bondsperson within two years, I would assume she went willingly back to Phoenix to stand trial for the new crime. 

Also, when Emma leaves the elevator, the bag that contained her heart is empty and on the floor, so I am now imagining a sad and grieving Emma having to put her own heart back in her chest, causing her to feel the pain even more strongly.

But that scene at the scale between Hook and Emma is even more adorable the second time around.  

[AudienceofOne]

5 hours ago, Jul 68 said:

I loved all of the CS scenes, but I have only been moved to tears twice in my life over a tv show. Once while watching an Eagles documentary just after Glenn Frey died and also during the last 15 minutes of the BSG finale. I think I'm made of stone. 

I imagine for the latter it was tears of anger. I don't cry either but there's a very silly British children's show called Wizards vs Aliens. If you can endure the episodes leading up to it (which you need to understand the characters) then watch The Thirteenth Floor. And the next episode The Endless Night as well. I defy you not to sob like a baby. Even with the seven foot aliens in blue armour.

As for this scene...

4 hours ago, retrograde said:

How many times now have Emma and Hook said big emotional goodbyes ~*~forever~*~ now? It's growing a bit tiresome.

Honestly, the scene was amazing but that doesn't mean I'm not tired of their entire relationship being setback after setback. If everyone's around next season, I'd like Hook and Emma to just be happy through it, even through the drama, crazy and endless "rare" True Love kisses opening "rare" Portals.

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

I had to laugh when Robin wandered in halfway through the episode and went, "What's going on?" and then his concerns being waved aside, followed by him losing his heart while he "takes a moment".  The Writers need to take a moment and figure out how to make an episode flow instead of clunk its way along.

Hades took their names off the tombstones and in the next scene Henry suddenly magically appears. I'm like "that's right, he's here". Why wasn't he at the cemetery? Hang on, has anyone even told Robin or is he going to be left in the Underworld woods raising a Pistachio and wondering where everyone went? Then Robin runs in and they begin to list everything that happened and I realise... they really didn't tell him they were going home. Robin who? Oh, that's right, he also has a True Love. TLK everybody?

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Yes! Why does Rumple need to trap Belle in Pandora's Box just to take her to Sb? He couldn't just carry her?

No clue. None. Nada. How is putting anybody in Pandora's Box a good idea. Unless... are they saying that Belle is hope? Because... ergh.

Edited May 2, 2016 by AudienceofOne
Words are not endlessly interchangeable

[Serena]

3 hours ago, twoods said:

Regina continues to be awesome this season. I know this is her redemption arc and people don't like it, but Lana is really selling it. 

I actually like Regina's Redemption Arc Take #658. 5B has been good for her, after a fairly awful 5A. Hopefully I haven't jinxed it for the last 3 episodes of the season.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Part of me was sad about Hook's farewell, but the rest of me was logically thinking that the show won't really kill him off.

Loved seeing Stealthy! And I really need to know about his resentment toward Bashful.

Shocking, just SHOCKING, that Hades is a lying liar who lies. I mean, even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and he wasn't behind Cruella and Anya locking up Regina, Henry, and Charming AND he somehow didn't know that the ambrosia tree had been chopped down, he certainly wasn't very helpful when it looked like everyone was going to be left behind. He was like too bad, so sad - let's jump in the portal, Zelena!

[AudienceofOne]

8 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Part of me was sad about Hook's farewell, but the rest of me was logically thinking that the show won't really kill him off.

I don't know. He and Emma have both been so sidelined this season. I don't do spoilers or show notes or cast/crew interviews or anything like that so I'm always completely unspoiled. As such, I wasn't entirely sure that Colin O'Donoghue wasn't leaving the show. He's certainly been given very little to do this season (but then so has Emma). During that scene, I was genuinely pondering whether I would watch Once if he left. Captain Swan was the only thing that got me through Season 4.

[Hookian]

We know this isn't the last we've seen of Hook. If it was we would be having interviews galore with Colin which we don't have. MRJ when he died got a plethora of interviews. Nuff said.

[Selina K]

4 hours ago, Souris said:

I can't really talk about the ep too much or I might have an aneurysm, but suffice it to say I'm amid the wreckage of many, many tables. I think it utterly destroyed what was magical about CaptainSwan for me. In effect, they gave up on their love and hope and just let each other go. Yeah, super romantic and special. That's not the message I signed up for. As laughably ruined as TLKs are these days, their TLK moment was rushed and lacking in impact. And it wasn't about THEM so much as it was about HER. All that angst and pain this season for ... that?

This is the absolute worst show in terms of payoff I've ever had the misfortune to be emotionally invested in. Any saving of Hook will have absolutely nothing to do with Emma or their love. It'll be some meaningless random randomness.

I have to say, I was a little surprised to come here and see a good bit of praise for the episode.  As a CS shipper, I am so pissed off.  If I take the episode as a stand alone, maybe it works better - good pacing, interesting backstory, and JMo was a boss in the scene where she got the jacket.  But, for Captain Swan, what the fuck is the message here?  Follow your true love through Death and Ha Ha!  Too bad! He can't really leave.  You went through literal Hell (I know - it's not hell, blah blah) and the big bad of the arc gets a TLK that frees him and random side characters we saw for one episode get a TLK that releases their spell, but you people who have had an actual developed relationship? Screw you!  Stuck in the Underworld.  just because JMo and Colin knock it out of the park on those scenes doesn't mean you make them do it three times in a single season.

ugh, so mad.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Selina K

[Joanh23]

So I know Killian (& CaptainSwan) is going to be fine, but damn this episode killed me.  Jmo and Colin killed it in all their scenes, and when Killian kissed Emma's hand that really got me.  I don't get it though how Hades and Zelena can have a TLK and not Hook/Emma.  A&E are really putting CaptainSwan through the ringer this season and all I can say is that they better be inseparable in S6.

[paulvdb]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

* "True Love is the rarest magic of all..." LOL. I think my dog can TLK me at this point.

You may have been joking, but I actually thought they would go there two weeks ago with Dorothy/Toto until they pulled out the Dorothy/Ruby.

[BoPeeps]

A&E and the writers continue to play/abuse/disrespect the viewers with repetitive, stagnate and incompetent, lazy storytelling.

They've totally invalidated the TLK with ridiculously uneven, pathetically irrational treatments.  They've sucked the joy and wit out of the series. They rely on the same emotions and angst being played over and over in slightly shifted settings, using the appeal of well loved actors/characters to get by. They betray their hope theme to the point of eye rolling absurdity.

They are just not very good at what they are doing.

It's maddeningly sad.

[babyPhat279]

They couldn't take a few minutes before leaving to preserve Hook's body? What a bunch of dodo heads. Although I guess even if they did it when Emma decided to go to the Underworld he already would have been several hours decayed. Still these people never seem very bright.

[3dog]

Sooo...they ripped Emma's heart in two and then....just smooshed it back together? How does any character ever die with medical procedures like that available?

[daxx]

I was very much expecting a separation in the episode for captain swan. I wasn't expecting them to think it permanent however. The two of them killed me. I don't normally cry at movies or tv, the one exception I have is Emma. I always, always cry or at least tear up when Emma cries add Colin into the mix and I was just sobbing.

i start tearing up now just thinking about it and I don't dare look at gifs of him kissing her hand or letting go or the single tear running down his face after she is gone. Those two are a gift, but please no more separations for awhile once they do figure out how to get Hook back.

 

Spoiler

I pull up a picture of the lift kiss to settle my emotions, I know they will be fine,but still. These two just kill me.

[babyPhat279]

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

I'm guessing Emma will kiss Hook's body goodbye and he wakes up.  Because. 

Dude, no. At this point I think this is going to be a "closed-casket" affair.

Can someone explain the heart-weighing to me? So she pushed Hook out of the fire and that confirms they are true love? But if she had gone to grab her heart to stop the fire, that wouldn't? Seems a case of 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

As for the flashback I'll just tell myself it should have taken place earlier and they just felt that the actress is now too old to play herself younger. But it definitely just makes it seem like Emma single-white-femaled Cleo. And why did she have to have the same job? Emma has always seemed to like helping people, she should have been a social worker.

And lol @ Rumple's kiss not working on Belle. Haha, suckers. You both deserve this fine mess you're in.

Edited May 2, 2016 by babyPhat279

[profdanglais]

2 hours ago, Selina K said:

2 hours ago, Selina K said:

You went through literal Hell (I know - it's not hell, blah blah) and the big bad of the arc gets a TLK that frees him and random side characters we saw for one episode get a TLK that releases their spell, but you people who have had an actual developed relationship? Screw you!  Stuck in the Underworld.

Maybe the True Love's Kiss needs to be renamed the I Quite Fancy You And Would Like The Chance To See Where This Relationship Goes Kiss (IQFYAWLTCTSWTRGK), and they can come up with some other way to distinguish True Love™ from all the other loves and likes and swift-burning attractions on this show. 

I do get where you're coming from in not liking CS's angst in this episode, but really, there was never any way that Emma was going to be able to get Hook out of the underworld with her ill-thought-out heart-splitting plan and lack of foresight in not even trying to preserve his body. Her decision to take such a drastic step with so little planning showed that even though she accepted that he had to die to stop the Dark Ones, she hadn't really let him go and hadn't ever truly allowed him the agency to choose his fate. Now she has, fully, and it seems like she won't (I hope hope hope she won't) feel any guilt or responsibility for it. That's an important development for her.  

[Bishop]

I concur with those about the Zelena/Hades TLK, but then I thought "He's Hades, and maybe there's a trick he employed to use Zelena's kiss to get him out."  I don't know.  It still wasn't enough for me to dislike the episode, which I enjoyed a lot.  I was actually very happy in some way that Hades conned everyone because I just love how evil he is, and I credit Hook with telling everyone that people cannot change that quickly.  Yep, listen to the pirate, people.

I'll get to the best last, but anytime Peter Pan (Bobbie Kay) is on screen, I am smiling.  It's a shame that the character has been lost to OUAT now, but it was great to see him while he was here, even though he's a despicable character.  I was sort of proud of Gold for not taking Robin's heart (when I REALLY thought he had) and instead spared Robin and chose to eradicate his father from his life forever.

I was annoyed at first about the backstory on Emma because I was wondering "Why do I need to see this when I want to see what's happening in the Underworld," but when I realized what was happening with Emma taking over the work of the bailbonds woman, I liked it.  I knew that she had picked out the red leather jacket, as she was about to try it on.  Overall, it worked for me, and I was pleased.

Okay, now for the best part - all things Hook and Emma.  Those two have managed to really become a great couple for me, and I love angst, and love and doubt and tears with any favorite pairing.  It builds drama and makes the payoffs so much more earned.  I liked a number of things.  I liked that Emma told Hook that she was going with him even though it might mean death because he sacrificed his life to save "all of us" against the Dark Ones, and she said it in front of everyone and I got reaction shots from the characters.  It was nice that the writers didn't gloss over what he did for them.  I loved that the proof of "True Love" was not a kiss since that's getting old.  It was that the person whose heart was being weighed had to love the person more than herself and be willing to sacrifice her life for his.  That was cool, and seeing Hook's expression that she passed the test by choosing him - her true love - was wonderful.  I think deep down, Killian and Emma are two insecure people when it comes to love because they have been abandoned by love ones or lost them.  The final scene with Killian and Emma was golden.  Both actors nailed it completely.  Killian/Colin had tears streaming down his face, but wasn't openly weeping.  It was a perfect reaction for Hook at the prospect of never seeing Emma.  Emma/Jen was a mess, which I also liked and was true to her character because she had lost so many people she loved, and she had fought so hard to keep him.  I thought the dialogue was great, the reactions was great, and that final scene of their hands clasping as she rose upward and was gone - and then it was just Killian alone in the bowels of the tunnels was sad and heartbreaking.  Loved.It.All.

For those who feel it was wrong or not true to CS that they "gave up," I didn't see it that way at all.  Hades told them that Hook's body was decaying the whole time above in Storybrooke, which is why the heart split won't work.  I think the Storybrooke characters are so use to relying on magic that they felt his "death" could be fixed. Some things can't.  Despite this obstacle and possible death, Killian and Emma tried one last effort to get him back and it was ALSO against a ticking clock of the portal opening and closing.  That's another reason why Killian wanted her to leave.  She would have stayed for him, but he wanted her back with her family, and Henry needed her too.  I thought the reasons why she had to leave were valid, and so I didn't feel it was a betrayal at all.  It's why it was so heartbreaking actually.

I also liked that final scene with David and Emma.  Everyone had gone through the portal, and David was about to go through, Emma hesitated and started to turn back, and he grabbed her.  I liked how he encouraged her that she did everything she could, and that David stayed with her, supporting her through it all and making sure she came back home through the portal.  

It was an emotionally satisfying episode for all the things I love about OUAT, but I have to admit that leaving Killian behind was a devastating ending to the episode, but it was poignant.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Bishop

[Primetimer]

Almost no one is feeling fine, especially viewers who might be trying to make sense out of this hodge-podge of mythology.

View the full article

[jhlipton]

So.... with 3 or so episodes to go, they are right back at where they started this season.  Yay?

 

13 hours ago, AmeliaBedelia said:

Emma's mentor did not have to die. That was a bit much.

Agreed.

 

3 hours ago, paulvdb said:

You may have been joking, but I actually thought they would go there two weeks ago with Dorothy/Toto until they pulled out the Dorothy/Ruby.

That would have been a better TLK than what we got.

[RadioGirl27]

8 hours ago, Souris said:

I can't really talk about the ep too much or I might have an aneurysm, but suffice it to say I'm amid the wreckage of many, many tables. I think it utterly destroyed what was magical about CaptainSwan for me. In effect, they gave up on their love and hope and just let each other go. Yeah, super romantic and special. That's not the message I signed up for. As laughably ruined as TLKs are these days, their TLK moment was rushed and lacking in impact. And it wasn't about THEM so much as it was about HER. All that angst and pain this season for ... that?

This is the absolute worst show in terms of payoff I've ever had the misfortune to be emotionally invested in. Any saving of Hook will have absolutely nothing to do with Emma or their love. It'll be some meaningless random randomness.

 

4 hours ago, Selina K said:

I have to say, I was a little surprised to come here and see a good bit of praise for the episode.  As a CS shipper, I am so pissed off.  If I take the episode as a stand alone, maybe it works better - good pacing, interesting backstory, and JMo was a boss in the scene where she got the jacket.  But, for Captain Swan, what the fuck is the message here?  Follow your true love through Death and Ha Ha!  Too bad! He can't really leave.  You went through literal Hell (I know - it's not hell, blah blah) and the big bad of the arc gets a TLK that frees him and random side characters we saw for one episode get a TLK that releases their spell, but you people who have had an actual developed relationship? Screw you!  Stuck in the Underworld.  just because JMo and Colin knock it out of the park on those scenes doesn't mean you make them do it three times in a single season.

ugh, so mad.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels like this. After everything they've been through, I think Hook and Emma deserve something better that this poor man's version of an act of true love, that was completely meaningless, rushed and not even something that involved both of them. The acting was amazing but everything else was rather poor.

The best part of the episode were, by far, all the Rumple/Pan interactions.

I feel so bad for Robin as a character and for Sean as an actor.

Edited May 2, 2016 by RadioGirl27

[Curio]

I haven't been able to watch the episode yet, but just by reading a few of the comments here...

Did Zelena and Hades actually have a legitimate True Love's Kiss? Like, with an exploding rainbow burst and everything? If so, that means Ruby/Dorothy and Zelena/Hades got rainbow-exploding, curse-breaking kisses before Emma/Hook, Robin/Regina, and Belle/Rumple. That's just... wow.

[Selina K]

2 hours ago, profdanglais said:

I get where you're coming from in not liking CS's angst in this episode, but really, there was never any way that Emma was going to be able to get Hook out of the underworld with her ill-thought-out heart-splitting plan and lack of foresight in not even trying to preserve his body. Her decision to take such a drastic step with so little planning showed that even though she accepted that he had to die to stop the Dark Ones, she hadn't really let him go and hadn't ever truly allowed him the agency to choose his fate. Now she has, fully, and it seems like she won't (I hope hope hope she won't) feel any guilt or responsibility for it. That's an important development for her.  

I understand your perspective, but i am seriously sick of Emma having to hit every developmental point while people like Regina and Rumple laugh through their redemption arcs.  I would like to see balance - make Regina and Rumple work a little harder, and Emma work a little less.  Emma has had more bullshit than anyone on the show and yet she needs to keep learning lessons on what love really is and letting people go?  First the lesson was she had to let down her walls and accept love and being vulnerable.  Ok, done.  Oops, he's in deathly peril, so she makes the choice to save him.  Sorry, that was wrong, so now she needs to accept letting that love go and letting him make the choice to die?  Ok, done, at the end of the last arc. When he died.  Oh, you want to save him from death  that iss apparently not love, to go to the Underworld to save him, so now she needs to really accept that he is choosing death and that they're true love, (which by the way, I didn't see the rainbow pulse so I'm not sure I'm buying in that was THE true love win) and then still let him die forever for realz?  I just cannot see the sense in that story.

[InsertWordHere]

3 minutes ago, Curio said:

Did Zelena and Hades actually have a legitimate True Love's Kiss? Like, with an exploding rainbow burst and everything?

Yes. Emma got to watch. Pan wisely chose to teleport before it happened. Hades' heart started beating again.

1 hour ago, Bishop said:

For those who feel it was wrong or not true to CS that they "gave up," I didn't see it that way at all.  Hades told them that Hook's body was decaying the whole time above in Storybrooke, which is why the heart split won't work.  I think the Storybrooke characters are so use to relying on magic that they felt his "death" could be fixed. Some things can't.

I agree. As someone who thinks dead should stay dead, I wanted them to make it nearly impossible to bring Hook back, so when he hopefully turns up again, it will be even more emotional and hard won. As Hook said, they already had more time than they should have. He was talking about Camelot, but really, they should never have met. Hook had centuries of time. Unfortunately, only a fraction of it was spent with Emma and most of that was running around facing the crisis of the week, but he was not someone who got a rotten deal and died too young. If it was a choice between saving the living, including her son and (as far as she knew) a baby, I would have hated to see Emma not choose the living. 

Now, the TL moment was awful. As cute as CO'D and JMO were in that scene, it couldn't make up for the fact that Emma would perform that service for Regina or Grumpy or any random storybook character. Unfortunately, it only proved that Hook would want Emma to save herself instead of him, which we already knew, and that Emma has "A heart filled with True Love," which isn't exactly newsworthy considering she is the product of true love. I'm sure that's not what they were going for, but once again, Captain Swan's true love status remains ambiguous IMO. It is all too easy for people to explain away, especially for Emma, with her savior status. 

[Bishop]

53 minutes ago, RadioGirl27 said:

 

11 hours ago, twoods said:

No matter how many times CS have their goodbye scene, I still turn into a blubbering mess. This one may have affected me the most because Hook was crying a lot. Why can't they have their happy ending? 

 

I don't get tired of the Hook/Emma moments probably because both actors just sell it so well, and this time, as you said, Killian was crying with Emma - which hasn't ever happened before and so it made their goodbye scene even more emotional.  I guess I just don't get all "Why can't they be together right now?" because once that happens, they are just going to turn into Snow and Charming - which is boringly happy.  I'll take the angst because it's so well done and satisfying.  I have no doubt the happily-ever-after is coming too, but I can wait.

9 hours ago, Souris said:

This is the absolute worst show in terms of payoff I've ever had the misfortune to be emotionally invested in. Any saving of Hook will have absolutely nothing to do with Emma or their love. It'll be some meaningless random randomness.

I don't understand what you mean here.  How will "any saving of Hook have nothing to do with Emma or their love?"  Everything Emma is doing is about her love for him and vice versa.

58 minutes ago, RadioGirl27 said:

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels like this. After everything they've been through, I think Hook and Emma deserve something better that this poor man's version of an act of true love, that was completely meaningless, rushed and not even something that involved both of them. The acting was amazing but everything else was rather poor.

 

12 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

Now, the TL moment was awful. As cute as CO'D and JMO were in that scene, it couldn't make up for the fact that Emma would perform that service for Regina or Grumpy or any random storybook character. Unfortunately, it only proved that Hook would want Emma to save herself instead of him, which we already knew, and that Emma has "A heart filled with True Love," which isn't exactly newsworthy considering she is the product of true love. I'm sure that's not what they were going for, but once again, Captain Swan's true love status remains ambiguous IMO. It is all too easy for people to explain away, especially for Emma, with her savior status. 

I don't agree at all.  I don't see it as a poor man's version of an act of true love.  Heck, a kiss at this point is kind of boring to show TL since it's been done to death AND it's not like kisses between the two haven't already been good.  So would a TLK be all that at this point in the game?  It's not like people don't already know that Emma and Killian are true love already.  For me, I liked the way it played out last night, and I don't think it was rushed or meaningless or something that didn't involve both of them or something she would have done for Regina or anyone else.  Emma had no way of knowing what would happen to Killian if she didn't do something.  She had no idea why her heart "wasn't working" as an act of true love.  She was in pain; he was in pain, and in that final moment, she thought "If he's going to die or perish, I'm going with him.  The hell with my heart.  I'll die with him."  So she abandons her heart (and life) and joins him. Now if that ain't an act of true love, I don't know what is.  I really liked.

[MedievalGirl]

I don't believe TLK has been cheapened. Snow and Charming had not been together much when they did it. These are high level characters now and always facing things that require the big guns such as a true love's kiss. BTW @Curio Belle and Rumple did have their TLK    and he chose power instead. 

I loved Emma's flashback. Cleo being tough and still helping was cool. I like when she slugged Emma in the records office. The time stamp was wonky but I find they get messed up on many shows. 

As for Emma and Hook, well played actors. I like the illogic of fairy tale and mythological adventures

[Curio]

5 minutes ago, MedievalGirl said:

BTW @Curio Belle and Rumple did have their TLK and he chose power instead. 

I was talking about the very specific TLK where a rainbow explodes and a curse is broken. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember a rainbow explosion for Belle and Rumple's kiss, his skin complexion just turned back to normal. I'd put that kiss on a similar level as Emma and Hook's Promethean flame kiss where it was enough to make something magical happen, but it wasn't an epic rainbow-exploding kiss. They make it seem like the rainbow explosion is the highest level kiss you can achieve on this show, so it's weird that they've now given it to two rushed couples in the past three episodes.

[YaddaYadda]

I thought what they gave Captain Swan as far as the whole TL thing went was fitting for the couple, and in a season that has been made of them sacrificing for each other. She sacrificed her soul for him, he sacrificed his life, she went to the Underworld to get him back, and was willing to lose her heart to save him.

I thought the message behind the act was simple. This is what they have been doing all season long, choosing the other consistently, and sacrificing for the other, and whatever failed true love kisses they might have had, that moment for me when she tackles him to try and save him  told me that they have been true love all along, they just didn't know, or care to know. They love each other, and that was always enough for them.

I'm assuming they'll get rainbows at some point if just because the flashes of light, and whatever else.

But as far as things go for me, all I can think about is that the moment was fitting with the season we've had for them so far. Plus nothing has been easy for Emma and Killian. They've had to fight like hell for everything.

I'm okay that she couldn't bring him back with her, because dead is dead, and Killian shouldn't be some special snowflake. And they closed that loophole they opened. No one can come back from the Underworld, and the only thing that might have worked, Hades destroyed centuries before. 

And honestly, after seeing Zelena and Hades TLK, I just didn't want it. When Snowing had their TLK, and even Rumbelle and Ruby/Dorothy, there was zero expectations from that. Charming wanted to kiss Snow goodbye, and Belle as well as Ruby thought they'd give it a try not knowing the outcome, but Hades has been fishing so hard for that kiss, and it bugs the hell out of me that his ass didn't burst into flames.

Edited May 2, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[DeLurker]

3 hours ago, babyPhat279 said:

And lol @ Rumple's kiss not working on Belle. Haha, suckers. You both deserve this fine mess you're in.

 

But he knew it wouldn't work so he needs to get her back to Storybrooke for her Dad to kiss her.

The only thing I can come up with about why Pandora's Box is necessary is because they'll use it in next season's storyline? 

So somehow they got a message to Robin and he show's up on time so they can turn Pistachio over to Zelena and he can "take a moment" so Rumple can faux rip out his heart?  What cell service do they have?

Rumple crossing over Pan was unexpected and unfortunate - I want more Robbie Kay!  The Neverending Land story went on way way too long, but I think Pan (as played by Robbie Kay) was the best villain since S1.

[Mathius]

1 hour ago, InsertWordHere said:

Now, the TL moment was awful. As cute as CO'D and JMO were in that scene, it couldn't make up for the fact that Emma would perform that service for Regina or Grumpy or any random storybook character. Unfortunately, it only proved that Hook would want Emma to save herself instead of him, which we already knew, and that Emma has "A heart filled with True Love," which isn't exactly newsworthy considering she is the product of true love. I'm sure that's not what they were going for, but once again, Captain Swan's true love status remains ambiguous IMO. It is all too easy for people to explain away, especially for Emma, with her savior status. 

No, the inscription said BOTH people needed to have TL for each other for it to happen.  Emma being made from TL doesn't automatically mean everything she feels for everyone is TL, otherwise the original TLK to Henry is cheapened as it would be automatic rather than a result of her actually developing those feelings toward him.  And while it's likely Emma would do the same for anyone in Hook's position here, only a handful of people (Snow, Charming, Henry, Hook) would want her not to do so and save herself instead.  Imagine if it was Regina: she'd totally want Emma to save her instead of saving herself....or if the positions were reversed, Regina would totally go for her heart rather than help Emma.  Regina may be good now, but she still puts only herself and sometimes Henry and Robin Hood first and foremost.

Quote

I'm assuming they'll get rainbows at some point if just because the flashes of light, and whatever else.

Rainbows will happen once an actual curse is present to break, neither character was cursed here.

Speaking of, Rumbelle didn't really have a TLK, they had an almost-TLK.  The full rainbow, curse-breaking effect was never reached.

And it's a shame...TLK was good and fine and "rare" prior to 3B (we just had Snow/Charming several times, Emma/Henry, Philip/Aurora, an almost case with Rumple/Belle before he pulled back from it forever, and Will/Anastasia in the Wonderland series.) But then we got Regina giving a TLK to Henry without her heart. And 5B just damaged it even further by having couples who barely knew each other (Ruby/Dorothy and Zelena/Hades) have it. TLK is nothing special anymore, it's just another plot device for the writers to use whenever it's convenient.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Mathius

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, PreviouslyTV said:

Almost no one is feeling fine, especially viewers who might be trying to make sense out of this hodge-podge of mythology.

View the full article

Just a note about the recap:  Hades is NOT a demigod.  A demigod is the offspring of a full-blooded god and a mortal.  A half-mortal, half-god, in other words.  Hercules is a demigod, Hades is not.  As the son of Cronus and Rhea, Hades is a full-blooded god.

Edited May 2, 2016 by legaleagle53

[Writing Wrongs]

I love how all of Robin's scenes now consist of him walking in mid-action with a scrunched up, confused look on his face and carrying a baby. 

I kept thinking about Rumple singing "It's my Belle in a box" to "Dick in a box".

The flashback was pointless. I already understood that the red jacket was Emma's armor. Of all the things that need explaining, they chose that? 

[maryle]

For me this episode totally redeem 5b for me because it gave me what I wanted. Hades is not solely about his love for Zelena but have his own plan. Gratefull for that!

But now I find him to be too similar to Rumple ( wants love and power) 

Actually I loved the Emma backstory and I found realistic that she was still acted like a girl who is searching not only for her family but a way to fit in this world without really be counscious about it.

I mean most girl with her background end up with worse fate. My only complain is she should be younger than 26 for to be almost on point.

I really loved the love quest and do not care about not be TLK!  TLK is a joke at this stade.

Colin and Jen are really great in this of scene but enough. 

Lastly Robin for once had a normal reaction he should make his own choice about his daughter.

[Stuffy]

7 hours ago, Hookian said:

We know this isn't the last we've seen of Hook. If it was we would be having interviews galore with Colin which we don't have. MRJ when he died got a plethora of interviews. Nuff said.

This is the same reason why I don't think the character on the blacklist is dead. No exit interviews not even the call in kind which would be easy. 

[InsertWordHere]

5 minutes ago, Bishop said:

I don't see it as a poor man's version of an act of true love.  Heck, a kiss at this point is kind of boring to show TL since it's been done to death AND it's not like kisses between the two haven't already been good.  

I didn't say it was a poor man's version of an act of true love, nor do I need a TLK, especially as I never needed CS to be confirmed True Love in the first place. I simply think it didn't do a good job of showing that Emma's act was about Hook, because Emma as the savior has special status and she has been shown to sacrifice herself repeatedly for just about anyone. I think Emma would have tackled anyone who was on fire, even if she endangered herself to do so. Take away the scale, and that act alone wouldn't prove True Love. So I guess it's a good thing the scale was there and now I've talked myself out of considering it awful.

3 minutes ago, Mathius said:

No, the inscription said BOTH people needed to have TL for each other for it to happen.

"Only a heart filled with True Love can pass" is a direct quote from Killian's translation in the episode. If the inscription reads BOTH, it was not stated in this episode and is dubious canon at best as the inscription was only shown very briefly. Emma interprets this to mean "I think I have to weight MY heart to see if MY love for you is true." Not that I think Hook hasn't proven time and again that he truly loves her. I think he'll prove it another time if and when he again returns against all odds.

14 minutes ago, Mathius said:

otherwise the original TLK to Henry is cheapened as it would be automatic rather than a result of her actually developing those feelings toward him. 

Graham regaining his memories from a kiss is what calls Emma's TL specialness into question, IMO, as I don't believe they were True Love. The TLK with Henry was not cheapened by the Graham kiss because it broke all the curses, not just Henry's. 

3 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

The flashback was pointless. I already understood that the red jacket was Emma's armor. Of all the things that need explaining, they chose that? 

They really didn't have to spell it out like that. Having Emma put on the jacket in NYC Serenade was perfect. This was overkill.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

It's The End Of The Underworld As We Know It (On Once Upon A Time)

Almost no one is feeling fine, especially viewers who might be trying to make sense out of this hodge-podge of mythology.