"Oh HELL No!": TV Moments That Make You Irate

[Rosiejuliemom]

On 5/28/2019 at 7:44 PM, tennisgurl said:

Speaking of characters doing awful things that no one finds out about, Regina from Once Upon a Time is generally one of the most detestable characters on television that we are supposed to root for and sympathize with, but one of the most frustrating things she got away with was the rape and murder of Graham AKA the Huntsman. In the fairytale world, she tried to force him to kill her step daughter Snow White (because Snow White story) and when he instead helped her get away, she ripped his heart out, which she used to control him, and its very heavily implied that she went on to use her power to rape him several times before she enacted the dark curse and dragged them all to Maine (...dont even ask) where she AGAIN had control of him, and re-wrote his personality so that they were sleeping together, again, against his will. Then when main character Emma, who has a bit of thing going on with him, starts to piece things together, he starts to get his real memories back, but before he can tell Emma, she crushes his heart and he died. Emma at the time thought it was a heart attack, but later on she finds out who Regina is and what she is capable of, but...she never puts two and two together. Regina soon becomes the goodest good guy who has ever been good and the shows resident main hero and Mary Sue who all the heroes and former victims worship and is considered totally forgiven and an amazing hero, BUT she never tells anyone what happened to Graham. She and Emma supposedly become besties and she is so sorry and is so awesome and good now, but she never bothers to tell her supposed friends what she did to the man who saved Snows life TWICE and who Emma was starting to fall for. It just never comes up again, and its so awful, and while its probably not the worst thing Regina is (she just destroyed SO many villages) its by far the most frustrating.

I will never not be salty about Regina getting away scot-free with what she did to Graham AND that absolutely no mention of him was made in the Underworld. They could show Regina magically healing a horse but couldn't throw us a bone and show Graham's tombstone at least?

[Spartan Girl]

I hate it when despicable characters never get the comeuppance they deserve too.

Case in point: I nearly rage-quit South Park because Gerald got away SCOT-FREE with all the chaos his trolling caused in town and driving one of his victims to suicide, not to mention the fact that he was willing to frame his toddler son for all his crimes.  It's been two years and I'm still not over it. 

Part of me hopes that Trey and Matt are going to bring it up in the future so that he's exposed for his crimes and gets the justice he deserves...but the cynical part of me doubts it.

[Blergh]

Spartan Girl,

 Don't disagree re your assessment but re that show and its creators: consider the source! 

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I hate it when despicable characters never get the comeuppance they deserve too.

So do I. I still hate the Regina and Rumple never got theirs. 

[Spartan Girl]

22 hours ago, Blergh said:

Spartan Girl,

 Don't disagree re your assessment but re that show and its creators: consider the source! 

I'm well aware of that.

I guess what makes me angrier about the whole thing is that it officially turned Kyle into a massive hypocrite.  He has no problem with morals and ethics if it was anyone else causing all that chaos -- especially if it's Cartman.  But when it's his dad, he'll bend over backward trying to cover for him, even after Gerald deliberately let him and Ike take the fall just to save his own ass.  So now when Kyle makes a sanctimonious speech -- even if he's in the right -- I just roll my eyes and go, "Talked to your dad, aka skankhunt42 lately, asshole?!"

[shang yiet]

Arya killing the Night King. Thats a hell, no from me. The kill should have gone to Jon and Bran.

[Spartan Girl]

Stranger Things (season two): Dustin getting his cat killed by the "little" Upside-Down monster he decided to adopt.  After what happened to Will and Barb by the full-grown version, he really should have known better.  

[Chaos Theory]

While I agree about Rumple the  entire series was about the redemption of Regina.  I am not going to get into it because I like a good redemption story just as much as I like a good downward spiral.  I find them fascinating.  Regina tried to change hit and miss.  Rumple kept making the same mistakes even knowing the cost.

[Wiendish Fitch]

8 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Stranger Things (season two): Dustin getting his cat killed by the "little" Upside-Down monster he decided to adopt.  After what happened to Will and Barb by the full-grown version, he really should have known better.  

The Dustin/Dart storyline is one of things that turned me off Stranger Things. I know Dustin's just a kid... but for God's sake, it's hard to be that understanding when this is something Dustin should have know would happen! Dustin's an adolescent, not a baby!

[Shannon L.]

This has nothing to do with the story line and everything to do with the writers.  We are watching Lucifer and are mostly enjoying it (there are a few episodes and characters that we haven't liked, but for the most part, it's a lot of fun) and were looking forward to the episode when Chloe discovers that Lucifer has been telling her the truth the whole time.  At the end of that episode, she sees who he really is, and it ends with her saying something to the effect of "OMG, it's true".  I was looking forward to the fallout from that, her reaction, his reaction to her, maybe their friends who knew the truth helping her through it, etc.  but instead, we get a regular episode like nothing had ever happened.  Then, the season finale (just 2 episodes later) was a fantasy about what if they'd never met (or met under different circumstances).  Are you freakin' kidding me with this?!  I see that the description of the season 4 premiere says that Chloe insists that she's ok with who Lucifer really is.  It really ought to be more complicated than that (even if only for one or two episodes).  I hope it is, but even so, waiting two episodes and over a summer hiatus, must have weakened the effect.

(We don't binge and sometimes it takes us days until have time to watch another episode, that's why I don't know for sure, yet, how it turns out).

[scarynikki12]

30 minutes ago, Shannon L. said:

I was looking forward to the fallout from that, her reaction, his reaction to her, maybe their friends who knew the truth helping her through it, etc.  but instead, we get a regular episode like nothing had ever happened. 

Chloe finding out was originally intended to be the season finale but they aired episodes out of order which is where the disconnect comes from. I wish Netflix and the dvds would put the episodes in the correct order so that it flows properly. Season 4 does start dealing with the fallout so they didn't ignore it.

[Shannon L.]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

Chloe finding out was originally intended to be the season finale but they aired episodes out of order which is where the disconnect comes from. I wish Netflix and the dvds would put the episodes in the correct order so that it flows properly. Season 4 does start dealing with the fallout so they didn't ignore it.

Thank you! I wonder why they did that? It was really maddening.

[scarynikki12]

Just now, Shannon L. said:

Thank you! I wonder why they did that? It was really maddening.

They'd done something similar in earlier seasons but they chose stand alone episodes and inserted them into the next season. But they chose appropriate times to insert the episodes rather than place them directly after cliffhangers. I don't know what they were thinking in season 3 but I said that a lot that year so the episode order didn't really phase me.

[Spartan Girl]

The way Steve Urkel strung along Myra and never hesitated to dump her for Laura will never not piss me off. And the fact that the writers decided to write Myra off as the "crazy ex" while poor Michelle Thomas was fighting cancer makes me want to have a rage stroke. That final season of Family Matters was almost as bad as the final season of Game of Thrones. Almost.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[Wiendish Fitch]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

The way Steve Urkel strung along Myra and never hesitated to dump her for Laura will never not piss me off. And the fact that the writers decided to write Myra off as the "crazy ex" while poor Michelle Thomas was fighting cancer makes me want to have a rage stroke. That final season of Family Matters was almost as bad as the final season of Game of Thrones. Almost.

I hear ya. It goes to show nerds can be just as guilty of "toxic masculinity" as jocks. It doesn't matter where you are on the social stratosphere; if you believe you entitled to a girl, and that she better reciprocate your feelings, come hell or high water, you are officially a toxic asshole. I would love to see a Jordan Peele-style romantic satire/deconstruction/horror film about the psychological toll being "worn down" by the dogged Nice Guy can have on a girl, and how she fights back.

I'm actually sort of amazed that there aren't more think pieces on what a creep Urkel really was. 

Now, can female characters be guilty of this? Oh, absolutely, don't think for a second they can't be, but they tend to be called on it more often. Gonna go ahead and show my advancing age here, but on The Torkelsons, our teenaged protagonist Dorothy Jane lusted after classmate Riley, even though it was painfully obvious that he was not interested in her at all except as a friend. One episode dealt with the emotional fallout of Dorothy Jane confessing her feelings and being rejected (she later tried playing the bimbo to win his interest, but it backfired). Then, when the show became Almost Home, Dorothy Jane, convinced that Riley didn't say goodbye because he was heartbroken over her moving away, called him to inquire why he didn't say good-bye. The brutally honest answer?

He forgot she was moving away.

And the beauty of this arc? Dorothy Jane sadly accepts the cold, hard truth that Riley was never interested in her, he never will be, and this definitely concludes this chapter once and for all. Dorothy Jane moves on (later to a jock played by a young Ben Affleck!), and Riley is never brought up again after that.

I wish more stories ended like this.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

I hear ya. It goes to show nerds can be just as guilty of "toxic masculinity" as jocks. It doesn't matter where you are on the social stratosphere; if you believe you entitled to a girl, and that she better reciprocate your feelings, come hell or high water, you are officially a toxic asshole. I would love to see a Jordan Peele-style romantic satire/deconstruction/horror film about the psychological toll being "worn down" by the dogged Nice Guy can have on a girl, and how she fights back.

I'm actually sort of amazed that there aren't more think pieces on what a creep Urkel really was. 

Now, can female characters be guilty of this? Oh, absolutely, don't think for a second they can't be, but they tend to be called on it more often. Gonna go ahead and show my advancing age here, but on The Torkelsons, our teenaged protagonist Dorothy Jane lusted after classmate Riley, even though it was painfully obvious that he was not interested in her at all except as a friend. One episode dealt with the emotional fallout of Dorothy Jane confessing her feelings and being rejected (she later tried playing the bimbo to win his interest, but it backfired). Then, when the show became Almost Home, Dorothy Jane, convinced that Riley didn't say goodbye because he was heartbroken over her moving away, called him to inquire why he didn't say good-bye. The brutally honest answer?

He forgot she was moving away.

And the beauty of this arc? Dorothy Jane sadly accepts the cold, hard truth that Riley was never interested in her, he never will be, and this definitely concludes this chapter once and for all. Dorothy Jane moves on (later to a jock played by a young Ben Affleck!), and Riley is never brought up again after that.

I wish more stories ended like this.

So do I.

[Spartan Girl]

6 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Now, can female characters be guilty of this? Oh, absolutely, don't think for a second they can't be, but they tend to be called on it more often.

Exactly, and that's what pisses me off more about how they vilified Myra just to make way for the undeserved Steve and Laura endgame. Myra got called on her spying and sabatoging, and yet Urkel got not nothing but sympathy for his.

Not to mention Urkel never got called out how he used Myra. Long before that hideous final season, he STILL tried to make countless passes on Laura WHILE HE WAS DATING MYRA. And yet the prick still felt entitled to give his big locker room speech on how he "respects women" because he's still a virgin. Hypocrite.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Exactly, and that's what pisses me off more about how they vilified Myra just to make way for the undeserved Steve and Laura endgame. Myra got called on her spying and sabatoging, and yet Urkel got not nothing but sympathy for his.

Not to mention Urkel never got called out how he used Myra. Long before that hideous final season, he STILL tried to make countless passes on Laura WHILE HE WAS DATING MYRA. And yet the prick still felt entitled to give his big locker room speech on how he "respects women" because he's still a virgin. Hypocrite.

Same here. He treated her like crap, I kept waiting for her to dump his ass like he deserved. Then of course they decide to put Steve and Laura together which I hated. Laura didn't want him. She made that clear a million times but Steve would never take the hint. He took anything she said that was nice as a "sign" that she wanted him when it never was. He shouldn't have won by ending up with Laura. Honestly, he really should have been dumped by Myra and left single or at least until he learned to treat women better. Myra ends up doing exactly what Steve to Laura for years. But when Myra does it she was a villain. When Steve was he wasn't. But yeah he respects women.

[Spartan Girl]

What really kills me about Urkel was that there were a million opportunities in the show for him to wake up and take the hint. Him chasing Laura should have ended the second he hit puberty. The writers could have easily had him grow up and get over Laura while continuing the "annoying neighbor who won't leave angle" because he hero-worshipped Eddie and Carl (and because his own parents were neglectful jerks), though why the Winslows never thought to just lock their door is beyond me. Sitcoms, amirite?

I wanted more of the Steve Urkel that helped out the homeless janitor and raised a bone marrow drive for the school bully when he got cancer. I liked THAT Steve. Now, unfortunately, its hard to separate him from the creep Steve.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[Blergh]

Also, what infuriated me about how they treated Laura was that all she ever did was try to spell out she was not interested in Urkel. Period. 

 She NEVER was deliberately mean or snotty to him (and likely would have been okay with him as a platonic friend who she'd occasionally see) yet the studio audience (at the directors' urging, I believe) kept booing her attempts at mere self-defense and objecting to him refusing to listen to her! 

 Yet, like Mary Richards before her had had happen with Ted,Phyllis and Sue Ann, she was expected to always pity and feel sorry for  impossible, obnoxious bullying clods (yes, Urkel, Ted, Sue Ann and Phyllis were ALL bullies) and belittled& guilt-tripped whenever she attempted to merely stand up for herself.

Yeah, that part made me mad! 

[Wiendish Fitch]

4 hours ago, Blergh said:

Yet, like Mary Richards before her had had happen with Ted,Phyllis and Sue Ann, she was expected to always pity and feel sorry for  impossible, obnoxious bullying clods (yes, Urkel, Ted, Sue Ann and Phyllis were ALL bullies) and belittled& guilt-tripped whenever she attempted to merely stand up for herself.

Speaking of which, I hate the episode where Mary and Ted take a creative writing class together... and the episode ends with Ted plagiarizing Mary's story! Yes, it's played for laughs, and Mary is visibly, justifiably miffed and is about to raise well-deserved hell, but it ends before we see any real consequences! 

[Blergh]

20 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Speaking of which, I hate the episode where Mary and Ted take a creative writing class together... and the episode ends with Ted plagiarizing Mary's story! Yes, it's played for laughs, and Mary is visibly, justifiably miffed and is about to raise well-deserved hell, but it ends before we see any real consequences! 

At least the viewer could imagine that there might have been consequences for Ted when that scene ended (though it would have been FAR more satisfying to have actually had that depicted oncamera).

A worse example, IMO, was in 'Sue Ann Gets Canned' in which WJM dumps Sue Ann's show so Lou decides that Mary needs to decide whether to hire Sue Ann for a spot on the 6 O'Clock News. Lou explains that since he had had a tryst with Sue Ann, he himself didn't feel comfortable making any decisions in that regard. However; when Mary weighs all of Sue Ann's qualifications and whether she'd be a good fit for their program, Mary decides Sue Ann would NOT be the best candidate to fill their vacant slot. Lou then spends the rest of the episode nagging and pestering Mary into  changing her mind (even dragging Mary to Sue Ann's less desirable temp spots around WJM). Then when Sue Ann openly asks Lou to intervene on her behalf, Mary is about to tell them for the last time Sue Ann's not hired- when Mary takes pity on Sue Ann's pouting and hires her. THEN Lou tells Mary she did 'the right thing' and further guilt trips her by pointing out that he'd taken a chance hiring HER seven years ago despite Mary having no previous experience.

 How I wish Mary had told him that there's a BIG difference between giving an unknown quantity the chance to prove themselves via sinking or swimming and hiring someone with a proven history of discord and troublemaking over an actual qualified applicant AND that since he gave her that task, he needed to accept that HER decision was final even if he didn't like or entirely understand it and she'd learn to accept his not being happy over it. It would have been a BIG leap for Mary not just re how she conducted herself as a potential manager but ALSO in letting to let those who try to manipulate through guilt trips to stew in their own!  Oh, and like the Ted's plagiarizing Mary's story, it happened in the Final Season when everyone KNEW they wouldn't  be back for another season so they COULD have shown Mary standing up for herself and not backing down instead of getting walked on via guilt-tripping for the umpteenth time! 

Yeah, those two episodes were infuriating to me! 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Blergh

[Spartan Girl]

The fall finale of The Good Doctor.  Shaun is pressured to visit his abusive asshole dad because he's dying, and he gives him a spectacular fuck-you speech, only to have his mealy-mouthed mom and friends to preach to him about forgiveness and stuff.  And when Shaun finally finds it in himself to forgive him, Abusive Asshole Dad just yells at him from his deathbed, and his friends and his stupid mom do NOTHING to stop it.

[andromeda331]

On 12/1/2019 at 6:56 AM, Wiendish Fitch said:

I hear ya. It goes to show nerds can be just as guilty of "toxic masculinity" as jocks. It doesn't matter where you are on the social stratosphere; if you believe you entitled to a girl, and that she better reciprocate your feelings, come hell or high water, you are officially a toxic asshole. I would love to see a Jordan Peele-style romantic satire/deconstruction/horror film about the psychological toll being "worn down" by the dogged Nice Guy can have on a girl, and how she fights back.

I'm actually sort of amazed that there aren't more think pieces on what a creep Urkel really was. 

Now, can female characters be guilty of this? Oh, absolutely, don't think for a second they can't be, but they tend to be called on it more often. Gonna go ahead and show my advancing age here, but on The Torkelsons, our teenaged protagonist Dorothy Jane lusted after classmate Riley, even though it was painfully obvious that he was not interested in her at all except as a friend. One episode dealt with the emotional fallout of Dorothy Jane confessing her feelings and being rejected (she later tried playing the bimbo to win his interest, but it backfired). Then, when the show became Almost Home, Dorothy Jane, convinced that Riley didn't say goodbye because he was heartbroken over her moving away, called him to inquire why he didn't say good-bye. The brutally honest answer?

He forgot she was moving away.

And the beauty of this arc? Dorothy Jane sadly accepts the cold, hard truth that Riley was never interested in her, he never will be, and this definitely concludes this chapter once and for all. Dorothy Jane moves on (later to a jock played by a young Ben Affleck!), and Riley is never brought up again after that.

I wish more stories ended like this.

They really need to do this type of story and more often. Its really common among teens. Have a crush on someone and take anything a sign their crush feels the same way. Even though its clear they really don't. Its not surprising. But almost every book, TV show or movie that feature the same thing always show it working out. Getting the guy or girl. Riley wasn't in love with Dorothy Jane which was clear but she never got it in her head. Even when she finally does tell him her feelings. She thinks she was rejected. Well no not really because Riley was never interested in her and had made that very clear. She built it all up in her head and refused to see the truth. It would be nice for it to be shown and the person getting it that person never loved them back. Steve Urkel took any sign from Laura, her being nice to him, saying something nice, anything as a sign that she loved him. Even though it was clear she wasn't. In Laura's case she made herself very clear dozens of times that she was not interest in him. He refused to listen. Even when he moved on to Myra he still never really did. He treated her badly and still took every time Laura being nice as a sign she wanted him.  They are wasting all their time and energy on someone who is not interested and move on.  In Steve's case he found someone who loved him and loved him for who he was. And he didn't care. He wasn't happy or grateful. He chose to treat her like crap. Because she wasn't Laura. A better message would be Dorothy Jane, Steve and all the others to realize their crush is one sided, accept their crush doesn't feel the same way and move on. That's one that really needs to get out. Dorothy Jane's was close but in the end she never realize Riley was never interested.  It would have been so much better if she had realized that. 

[Wiendish Fitch]

36 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

 Dorothy Jane's was close but in the end she never realize Riley was never interested.  It would have been so much better if she had realized that. 

I think she did realize it in that episode of The Torkelsons (I mistakenly thought it was an Almost Home episode) when Riley told her (offscreen, over the phone) that he just forgot to tell her goodbye (when he left for college, not that she was moving; again, my mistake). That's when Dorothy Jane finally-finally!-got it in her skull that Riley was never, ever interested in her, and he never would be. After that, she finally moved on, and I don't remember Riley ever being mentioned after that. 

[Spartan Girl]

Man, I would have loved a moment that was anything like The Torkelsons moment on Family Matters. Well, there was, but with Myrtle and Eddie. Say what you want about Myrtle, but even she finally woke up to how she was debasing herself chasing a guy who did not want her.

Honestly, that whole last season did Laura a great disservice too. Like everyone else said, she was always crystal clear that she had no interest in Steve. Then after a DRUNK kiss she's suddenly lusting over him and having an open dating arrangement both him and Stefan because she's so torn between the two? Ugh. Laura was NEVER that wishy washy.

TVOne aired a holiday marathon of the show with a cast reunion (minus Jaleel White). It made me happy to see them give the late Michelle Thomas her due, talking about how funny she was. But then Reginald VelJohnson remembered how she was in tears the last time he saw her because she told them she had cancer. That got me mad all over again. Imagine having a health crisis while finding out the character you put your heart and soul into is getting screwed by the writers to make way for a crappy endgame. I'm sure that's something Emilia Clarke could easily relate to...

It will never cease to frustrate me how nice people like Michelle Thomas can get cancer and die while pukes like Bill Cosby stil breathe.

And on THAT note, the fact that The Cosby Show reruns are still airing enrages me. I know the other cast members deserve their residuals, but I never want to see that rapist's face on TV again unless it's in an open casket ready for the long line of his victims to spit on.

[Spartan Girl]

Speaking of another shitty male character who didn't deserve his happy ending -- or in this case, it was more bittersweet than happy -- I hated the way Jon Snow treated Dany in the final season of Game of Thrones.  The end of the previous season had her offering her help in fighting the Night Queen, no knee-bending required, after Viserion died, and he bent the knee anyway.  But the way he revised history to Sansa, he "had no choice" but to bend the knee.  WTF, Jon?  You couldn't tell the truth because you were afraid of looking worse to the North?!

Then after the big revelation that he's the true Targaryen heir, instead of explaining his conflicted feelings about the incest to Dany or even accepted her as his birth family if nothing else, he just did the "You're my queen" lip service and then recoiled from her kiss as if she was shit he was trying to scrape off his shoe.  Not to mention he blabbed about his birthright after Dany begged him not to, knowing that everyone would immediately try to overthrow her in favor of a male heir.  And that's pretty much what happened.

Jason Momoa was so right: he could've loved her a lot better.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[proserpina65]

On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 12:27 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Then after the big revelation that he's the true Targaryen heir, instead of explaining his conflicted feelings about the incest to Dany or even accepted her as his birth family if nothing else, he just did the "You're my queen" lip service and then recoiled from her kiss as if she was shit he was trying to scrape off his shoe.  Not to mention he blabbed about his birthright after Dany begged him not to, knowing that everyone would immediately try to overthrow her in favor of a male heir.  And that's pretty much what happened.

I don't agree with this part.  It simply wasn't in Jon's nature to keep that kind of secret from the people he loved.  He didn't blab it; he told his family, and only his family, and did ask them to keep it secret.  And his recoiling from her kiss - if I remember correctly, wasn't that after she asked him to keep his heritage secret?  If so (and I will stand corrected if my memory is wrong), I don't blame him.

Jon made a lot of mistakes, and I'm with you on the first paragraph, but in the end he was right to tell his family.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

And his recoiling from her kiss - if I remember correctly, wasn't that after she asked him to keep his heritage secret?  If so (and I will stand corrected if my memory is wrong), I don't blame him.

Nope. This is how it went down: she initiated the kiss while lamenting how she didn't love Ser Jorah the same way she loved Jon, and then he broke off the kiss. The request not to tell anyone was later and there was no kiss involved.

The next time it happened was in the following episode when she told him that she didn't have anyone that really loved her in Westeros (since most of her true friends were dead at this point) and he gives her the "You're my queen" bullshit. She asks, "Is that all I am to you?" and kisses him...and instead of trying to explain his feelings or at the very least saying something like "Of course not: we're blood too" or anything even remotely comforting, he just backs away like she has cooties. Which brings her "All right then: let it be fear."

I stand by what I said: season 8 Jon was an asshole. Then again so was everyone else.

[juno]

I loved The Rookie until they killed the Captain who was one of my favorite characters. I thought it was completely unnecessary and for the first time in my life gave up on a show at the moment she died.

[Dr.OO7]

I agree with everyone's "Steve/Laura" posts. The Stalking Is Love trope as well as the double standard about it infuriates me--when a woman does it, she's pathetic and crazy, when a man does, he's sweet and romantic.

An even worse example is seen in Sex And The City--a show about women, geared towards women, and presumably written by women. Anytime Carrie acted in a pathetic, crazy, clingy way, she was treated like. . .she was pathetic, clingy, and crazy and got dumped. When Big flat-out STALKED her for several weeks--after he was married, no less--culminating in him forcing himself on her, it's presented as sexy and romantic. Nevermind that she repeatedly tells him to leave her alone, even outright pushing him away and telling him "Fuck you" (In other words, "NO") when he grabs and kisses her.

Same thing with Steve and Miranda. She makes it clear after their one-night-stand that she wants nothing more. His response? To show up at her apartment uninvited and unannounced, actually threatening to make a scene if she doesn't let him in--and she does instead of, you know, CALLING THE POLICE, and continuing to follow her around. By the episode's end, she's decided that he's a really sweet guy who must really like her if he won't give up on her, instead of an obsessed psycho who she needs to file a restraining order against.

What a great "How we met" story to tell their son and grandchildren!

(This one really strikes a chord with me because I was stalked by an ex for a full year after I broke up with him and the "Awww, shucks, he really loves you!" attitude from everyone was even more upsetting than what he was putting me through)

Edited December 17, 2019 by Camille

[Zahdii]

Does anybody remember Luke and Laura from the daytime soap 'General Hospital'?  

I don't know all the details, but it's 1979, and a lot of the girls at my school were obsessed with them.  After a lot of OTT stuff where they were attracted to each other but couldn't be together, Luke gets drunk in the disco he either owns or manages.  It's after hours, and no one else is there except Luke and Laura.  He gets her to dance with him.  Party ball overhead, loud music playing, Luke pulls Laura to the floor out of frame, as she's begging him to let her go - the music gets louder, and fade to commercial. 

People were pissed, but the teenaged audience girls loved it.  The rape was suddenly presented as a forced seduction, later on as simply seduction.  Girls across the nation phoned radio stations requesting they play "the rape song".  

(It really was a more modern and edgier version of a Barbara Cartland book, where the 1800's era young woman meets a handsome man who is older, wealthier, titled, has issues from his past that have left him damaged and determined to never marry; and has no interest in her.  Cartland was actually more restrained in her books.  The protagonists realize they're attracted to each other, but they fight against it because they both feel they're unsuited or not worthy of each other, and talking about their feelings just wasn't done back then.  Yet circumstances always throw them together.  The man dominates the woman (always referred to as a girl) and controls everything until something happens to bring things to a climax (snerk).  The stunningly beautiful, chaste, naive, yet surprisingly intelligent young lady never gets raped.  The girl might get kidnapped, held hostage by her horrible family, or be beset upon by scofflaws with evil intentions, or any number of things.  But she's powerless to do anything more than protect her virtue and has to wait until the man saves the day.  If she doesn't fall willingly into his arms after that, he forces a kiss on her and she suddenly realizes that this is LOVE, and all she has to do is relax and let the man take control.  They pledge their undying love for each other, admit that this is what they've always wanted, and wander off to get married and live happily ever after.)

Since Luke and Laura were more modern, they had a more difficult time coming to terms with what had happened.  Luke was anguished and tried to redeem himself.  Laura sought help to deal with the rape, but she refused to tell who raped her.  Circumstances and other people got in the way.  In 1981, they finally got married in the most watched soap opera episode of all time.  Thirty million viewers tuned in, most of them female.  The VCR was still pretty new, only the rich people had them in the US at that time.  If you wanted to see the wedding, you had to be in front of your television to watch it.  Many viewers skipped work or school to watch.  Some fans gathered together for viewing parties, complete with decorations, and cake.  Some even dressed up as if they were guests at the wedding.

[proserpina65]

18 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Nope. This is how it went down: she initiated the kiss while lamenting how she didn't love Ser Jorah the same way she loved Jon, and then he broke off the kiss. The request not to tell anyone was later and there was no kiss involved.

The next time it happened was in the following episode when she told him that she didn't have anyone that really loved her in Westeros (since most of her true friends were dead at this point) and he gives her the "You're my queen" bullshit. She asks, "Is that all I am to you?" and kisses him...and instead of trying to explain his feelings or at the very least saying something like "Of course not: we're blood too" or anything even remotely comforting, he just backs away like she has cooties. Which brings her "All right then: let it be fear."

I stand by what I said: season 8 Jon was an asshole. Then again so was everyone else.

I stand corrected about the timing of the kiss.  But we'll have to agree to disagree with how we interpreted his reaction, and pretty much everything else about that scene.

Edited December 17, 2019 by proserpina65

[GHScorpiosRule]

35 minutes ago, Zahdii said:

Does anybody remember Luke and Laura from the daytime soap 'General Hospital'?  

I don't know all the details, but it's 1979, and a lot of the girls at my school were obsessed with them.  After a lot of OTT stuff where they were attracted to each other but couldn't be together, Luke gets drunk in the disco he either owns or manages.  It's after hours, and no one else is there except Luke and Laura.  He gets her to dance with him.  Party ball overhead, loud music playing, Luke pulls Laura to the floor out of frame, as she's begging him to let her go - the music gets louder, and fade to commercial. 

People were pissed, but the teenaged audience girls loved it.  The rape was suddenly presented as a forced seduction, later on as simply seduction.  Girls across the nation phoned radio stations requesting they play "the rape song".  

I'm not defending what happened, but the reason why it was changed to "seduction" was because the show decided to keep Anthony Geary (Luke) on the show after all--due to the amazing chemistry between him and Genie (Laura). He was originally slated to be killed off. So, for worse and worse, the writers had to cobble and force a story to keep them together. Even after, when they had Laura saying "when we made love", Luke was flat out admitting he'd raped her, and they couldn't be together because of that. There's a clip of that out there on YouTube.

[Annber03]

3 hours ago, Zahdii said:

Girls across the nation phoned radio stations requesting they play "the rape song". 

....wow. 

Luke and Laura was before my time, but I've certainly heard about them, of course, and their crazy history. Yeah. Definitely not a storyline that would fly so easily today, I doubt. 

I've heard people talk about how a lot of stories in which a woman falls in love with her rapist/the forced seduction thing are the result of women trying to find some way to come to terms with their own sexual desires. So many women grow up being told that "good girls" save themselves or don't throw themselves at men or things of that sort. So they write and/or read stories in which the woman is lured into this relationship against her will. That way, if she does wind up falling for the guy and enjoying the intimacy, since she was lured into it, that can allow her to absolve herself of any guilt over her own sexual desires, or something to that effect. 

If that's the case, I can see where there'd be some truth to that. Sure does speak to just how warped society's attitudes about women and sex are, though. 

[Irlandesa]

5 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Luke and Laura was before my time, but I've certainly heard about them, of course, and their crazy history. Yeah. Definitely not a storyline that would fly so easily today, I doubt. 

I don't know that I agree.  It probably wouldn't be the huge phenomenon it is but shows haven't stopped putting in moments of very questionable consent if not moments that are written precisely how you'd write a rape scene but then act like viewers are crazy for seeing it that way.  And I'm not just talking about soaps either (I see you, Game of Thrones.) Fifty Shades of Gray was also huge and while in theory it was about dom/sub, from what I understand, it came off as more abusive than consensual kink. Yet it sold like gangbusters. 

It wasn't just girls who got into Luke and Laura either.  I think it makes some feel better to think it's girls (because hey, what do they know?) or uses that idea to dismiss what many women like but many mature women also got into Luke & Laura, Twilight and 50 Shades. Women who do have experience.

I'm always confused where I stand on these issues.  On one hand, a rapist and his victim is a no go for me but then again, eh, it's fiction. And yet, I want to pull my hair out when I see people defending Joe from You on Twitter.  He is written to be a psycho.  Period.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Irlandesa

[Annber03]

15 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I don't know that I agree.  It probably wouldn't be the huge phenomenon it is but shows haven't stopped putting in moments of very questionable consent if not moments that are written precisely how you'd write a rape scene but then act like viewers are crazy for seeing it that way.  And I'm not just talking about soaps either (I see you, Game of Thrones.) Fifty Shades of Gray was also huge and while in theory it was about dom/sub, from what I understand, it came off as more abusive than consensual kink. Yet it sold like gangbusters. 

Oh, true that the story could still be told in and of itself. I just meant more that it wouldn't be able to go by without a ton of think pieces and discussion about the message it might be sending along the way, similar to the kind of discussion Fifty Shades and Twilight and the like got. Was there any sort of major pushback against the Luke & Laura storyline when it originally aired? 

Quote

It wasn't just girls who got into Luke and Laura either.  I think it makes us feel better to think it's girls who just don't know any better but many mature women also got into Luke & Laura, Twilight and 50 Shades. 

I'm always confused where I stand on these issues.  On one hand, a rapist and his victim is a no go for me but then again, eh, it's fiction. 

Very true, and I think there's a valid point to be made there, too. There's plenty of women that love questionable/awful relationships in fiction that they'd never dare want in real life, and I do think sometimes there can be a tendency for some of the criticism of women's interest in this kind of stuff to come off rather patronizing, implying they can't separate fiction from reality, or that they need to be reminded of how bad this stuff is, or whatever. A lot of them already know that, and frankly don't care. They just want to enjoy a crazy story. Abusive relationships would happen with or without things like Luke & Laura, or Fifty Shades, or things of that sort, and so for people to point the blame at those stories as the reason for why women find themselves in bad relationships seems to me to simplify a lot of the deeper issues that lead to those kinds of relationships in real life. 

I also suspect that for some people, part of the appeal of these kinds of relationships in fiction is that it's a hell of a lot easier to shave off/overlook the bad aspects of a fictional guy than it is a real one. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Annber03

[Ohiopirate02]

17 hours ago, Annber03 said:

....wow. 

Luke and Laura was before my time, but I've certainly heard about them, of course, and their crazy history. Yeah. Definitely not a storyline that would fly so easily today, I doubt. 

I've heard people talk about how a lot of stories in which a woman falls in love with her rapist/the forced seduction thing are the result of women trying to find some way to come to terms with their own sexual desires. So many women grow up being told that "good girls" save themselves or don't throw themselves at men or things of that sort. So they write and/or read stories in which the woman is lured into this relationship against her will. That way, if she does wind up falling for the guy and enjoying the intimacy, since she was lured into it, that can allow her to absolve herself of any guilt over her own sexual desires, or something to that effect. 

If that's the case, I can see where there'd be some truth to that. Sure does speak to just how warped society's attitudes about women and sex are, though. 

You are not wrong about why forced seductions made their way into the romance novels in the 1970s.  Rape that turns into love is the plot of the first "bodice-ripper" Kathleen Woodiwiss's The Flame and the Flower from 1972.  Most romance novels that included sex scenes had consent issues for the next decade or so.  The idea that Laura fell in love with Luke after her rape was not out of the ordinary for the 70s.  

[andromeda331]

Your right they were very common. There was a lot of the only way a "good" girl could be shown in sex scenes was if she was raped. Then it could be "justified". Which is so completely messed up.  They couldn't simply watch or read a book about a "good" girl falling in love and having sex. Oh no that can't happen. But also it was a point of the Moral Guardians who got involved too. I think it was in the 30s they started flipping out over women in movies being show having consensual sex and lead to the Hays Code which most of it was crap. You could show a woman being raped. That was okay. But a woman deciding to have sex wasn't. 

[Spartan Girl]

Got another Urkel moment that pisses me off: "In A Thought In the Dark" Laura and her boyfriend first set up a blind date with him and Myra (she was the boyfriend's cousin) to get Steve to stop stalking them on their dates.  Steve's attitude is: "You're setting me up with another woman?!  Well, it's not going to work!" but agrees to go along with it anyway just to be around Laura.  And when the boyfriend shows up with his cousin, Steve literally barks and growls at him like an overprotective dog.

It was disgusting.  Even more disgusting was that the studio audience thought it was hilarious when it wasn't.  He was acting like a child at best and a psycho at worst.  It was no different than the boundary-crossing behavior exhibited by the likes of Gaston and Biff Tannen.  But they were bullies and he's a nerd, so I guess it's different -- NOT. 

[Spartan Girl]

I know I've already listed Xander's sanctimonious lecture to Buffy about Riley on this thread, but here's another dimension of shittiness to add to it:

Earlier in the season, Riley told Xander that Buffy didn't love him.  And Xander said nothing to her about it.  You could argue that it was none of his business and you'd be right, but the thing is Xander has never shied away from sticking his nose into Buffy's personal life, especially when it came to blabbing about her past with Angel to Riley and Faith behind her back.  So the one time it might have been okay to give a heads-up to Buffy -- "Hey, Riley said some weird things to me..." -- he keeps his trap shut and does nothing, only to later criticize Buffy about how she never saw the breakdown coming?!

I hate Xander.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[Bastet]

Even as someone who was only a casual fan for a few years, I saw enough of Friends to pay attention to discussion among those who stuck it out to catalog the myriad reasons Rachel and Ross utterly suck as a couple - including multiple ways they bring out the worst in each other.

I just stumbled across a new one in going around the dial and briefly stopping on a syndicated episode.  Rachel told Monica and Phoebe she and Ross were going out on their first date X night, and Monica reminded her she'd agreed to be the server at the dinner party Monica was catering (as she struggled to get this very new business off the ground and only got the party via a referral from her mom) that night. 

Instead of simply saying, "Oops, sorry (Monica, my best friend) - I got so excited I blanked on the date.  Since Ross and I see each other every.damn.day, I'll tell him we need to reschedule," Rachel whines, "But it's our first date!" 

Fool, please. 

Most of what sucked about that relationship was Ross, and how stupendously awful he is as a boyfriend to her as it goes on, but, wow, this was an early bad look from Rachel.

[shireenbamfatheon]

About Game of Thrones, I actually found Dany's treatment of Jon to be infuriating. She spent eight seasons complaining about how her family was wronged, yet when she found out Jon was her nephew her reaction was to... tell him to lie about his parentage, let the world believe his real father, her own brother, was a rapist who kidnapped a young girl and raped her to death, pretend to be a bastard with all the stigma it carried in their world, and let his siblings (cousins) believe their father was unfaithful to their mother. All so she could recreate a dynasty that would die with her given that she was barren.

I've seen a lot of complaints about Jon's treatment of Dany but rarely the other way around. There's a part in episode four where Dany enters Jon's room when he's alone, asks him if he's drunk, starts kissing him when he confirms he is, complains about him telling her the truth when he breaks it off because he's uncomfortable, starts talking about how everyone loves him and not her (they don't know you), grabs his face when he's literally on his knees and pledging his loyalty, and tells him not to tell anyone so she can sit on the throne. When he tells her he can't lie to his family but that they "can all live together", her face immediately goes cold and she goes "we can, I just told you how" before walking off.

All I could think while watching this scene was that the dynamic would have been so obviously manipulative and abusive to anyone if the genders were reversed. Jon basically spent every episode trying to assuage Dany's worries and calm her temper because she kept holding his parentage over his head. He forced his own exhausted army to march on King's Landing following the battle at Winterfell to please Dany and reaffirm his loyalty to her. He consistently told her that he had her back, even when she threatened his own family to his face. Yet according to many, he's still to blame for Dany turning dark because he didn't continue to sleep with someone he didn't want to? And for telling the truth which has consistently been the one thing people have loved about him?

Imagine blaming a woman for her former lover becoming psychotic because she stopped sleeping with him, and expecting her to do everyone she was told to keep the man in line. 

[supposebly]

39 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Yet according to many, he's still to blame for Dany turning dark because he didn't continue to sleep with someone he didn't want to? And for telling the truth which has consistently been the one thing people have loved about him?

I find it hard to blame Jon or Dani for anything in the last 2 seasons since they didn't behave like themselves. I do however blame the shitty shitty writing for their OOC and exaggerated caricature behaviour.

[Zella]

I personally had thought Dany had been acting unhinged since season 2. I never understood the complaints that it came out of nowhere because to me she was clearly being foreshadowed as her father's daughter and in love with power and inept at ruling the people she conquered and arrogantly obsessed with her "birthright" since she was tearing up essos. 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Zella

[AimingforYoko]

45 minutes ago, Zella said:

I personally had thought Dany had been acting unhinged since season 2. I never understood the complaints that it came out of nowhere because to me she was clearly being foreshadowed as her father's daughter and in love with power and inept at ruling the people she conquered and arrogantly obsessed with her "birthright" since she was tearing up essos. 

If Dany had tore ass to The Red Keep after the bells rang, that would've been in character. She owed Cersei, rules of engagement or no. But she never killed innocents, she never targeted civilians.

[proserpina65]

On ‎03‎/‎17‎/‎2020 at 3:54 PM, AimingforYoko said:

If Dany had tore ass to The Red Keep after the bells rang, that would've been in character. She owed Cersei, rules of engagement or no. But she never killed innocents, she never targeted civilians.

She threatened to on more than one occasion, and had to be talked out of it.  Most viewers just glossed over it because it was in Slaver's Bay.  But the inhabitants of Astapor and Yunkai, both of which she threatened to destroy in season 6, contained far more slaves than masters.

[magicdog]

Do moments in TV movies count?

I caught a repeat of one of the Hallmark Christmas movies this morning, "December Bride".  On it's own, it's not bad as far as the genre goes (Aspiring interior decorator who always wanted to marry in December falls in love with a workaholic who's indifferent about the holiday season), but there's a secondary plot in which her cousin is constantly asking for her forgiveness.  Forgive her for what you ask?  She and the woman's [former] fiancee fall in love and marry!  Sure, later on in the film, it's mentioned the two were ultimately wrong for one another, but apparently we're supposed to hope that the bride and her cousin are all cool with each other since they are practically sisters and our heroine found a new love [eventually].   

I was so pissed off at this!  It reminds me of those real life stories you hear about in which someone in the family did you wrong but everyone (parents included) insist you forgive them for a serious transgression that really shouldn't be forgiven.  If someone I considered a friend or was a sibling or other close family member was screwing around with my boyfriend or husband BOTH of them would be out the door in a NY minute!   Not to mention forgiveness would be a foregone conclusion!  I could never forgive someone who would hurt me in such a way!   Even if I eventually married the best guy on Earth.  

[Wiendish Fitch]

People think Hallmark TV movies are all about insipid white people finding tepid romance during Christmas, but I will take it further and proclaim that they're actually about people who are either awful, boring, or both, but we're meant to think they're lovable because they're played by So and So from that TV show from the 90's you or may not remember!

[Bastet]

8 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

People think Hallmark TV movies are all about insipid white people finding tepid romance during Christmas,

You forgot in a small town.