S02.E18: Versus Zoom

[Trini]

Equipped with the tachyon device, Barry believes he is fast enough to stop Zoom and wants to open the breaches to catch him. Harry strongly advises against that plan but after Barry convinces him, Harry reveals that Cisco has the power to re-open the breach. Meanwhile, Hunter Zoloman's (Teddy Sears) painful story on Earth-2 is revealed.

 

I'm sure it's supposed to be Zolomon, but that's how it's spelled in the press release.

 

https://youtu.be/VmwADoRz1Lk

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

 Ok, so.........

 

Zoom is E2's Zolomon.  He killed E2 Jay Garrick, E2's Flash.  Still doesn't answer who the man in the mask is though........ (at least going into this upcoming episode)

[phoenics]

Ok, so.........

 

Zoom is E2's Zolomon.  He killed E2 Jay Garrick, E2's Flash.  Still doesn't answer who the man in the mask is though........ (at least going into this upcoming episode)

So if Zoom is E2's HZ, and Jay Garrick that died was E2's Flash, then that leaves another Flash and HZ somewhere, right?

Maybe it's an E1 Jay Garrick since we already saw E1's Hunter Zolomon?

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Its impossible to tell, phoenics.   The writers have done decent work of setting it up so that it could be any of those, or even ones not mentioned, &  it'd still be at least somewhat believable*.

 

 

* - within the realm of the "reality" of a science-fiction based TV show

Edited April 17, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[zannej]

So, now I'm thinking

either there are 4 guys played by Teddy Sears-- OR there are only 2 and the guy in the iron mask is someone completely different and it was Zoom talking to Caitlin while pointing out Hunter Zolomon and there never really was a Jay Garrik (unless it was Hunter's father) and the one that died was Earth1 Hunter who was asked to fill in for Zoom temporarily.

I hope we get some sneak peeks before the episode airs.  It needs to be Tuesday already!

[Trini]

Clip with Wells and Joe:

 

[bettername2come]

Another clip:

[nksarmi]

Ok did I miss it?  Did they get Wally back or did they just give Hunter all of Barry's speed and let him run off with Caityln?

 

These people need Eobard Thawn back - he was at least smart and cunning.

[CocoaGoddess]

EXCELLENT plan as always Barry!

 

*slow clap* 

[coolbeans3131]

That made no sense. Sigh

[bettername2come]

Ok did I miss it?  Did they get Wally back or did they just give Hunter all of Barry's speed and let him run off with Caityln?

 

These people need Eobard Thawn back - he was at least smart and cunning.

They got Wally back first. 

 

They were really trying to go for drama on this one. Were they making a new Vibe theme song? That sounded new in the he opens a breach scene. Like the Barry/Cisco bromance, like Caitlin and Iris comparing shattered love lives, like Joe and Wally scene, like Cisco expanding powers, please give Caitlin something to do besides cry, nice change to see Wells in the West house and the Wests in the time vault. 

 

God, Barry, I thought you might secretly be bluffing. You had me all excited. So I guess kidnapped Caitlin and getting his powers back keeps Barry from getting to Laurel's funeral? And did he visit Supergirl Earth and not tell anyone on that test run?

 

I'm in for the Caitlin kidnapping plot next week. Dammit, why am I such a sucker for kidnapping plots? 

[CocoaGoddess]

They got Wally back first. 

 

They were really trying to go for drama on this one. Were they making a new Vibe theme song? That sounded new in the he opens a breach scene. Like the Barry/Cisco bromance, like Caitlin and Iris comparing shattered love lives, like Joe and Wally scene, like Cisco expanding powers, please give Caitlin something to do besides cry, nice change to see Wells in the West house and the Wests in the time vault. 

 

God, Barry, I thought you might secretly be bluffing. You had me all excited. So I guess kidnapped Caitlin and getting his powers back keeps Barry from getting to Laurel's funeral? And did he visit Supergirl Earth and not tell anyone on that test run?

 

I'm in for the Caitlin kidnapping plot next week. Dammit, why am I such a sucker for kidnapping plots? 

 

It's really the only kind of plot happening on The Flash. All courtesy of Barry and his incompetence. 

[Gizmo321]

Ok....well ...that happened.

 

Talk about a hot mess.

 

Let's talk this through....when last we saw "Jay".....Zoom kills him as the last breach closes. Zoom then speeds dead "Jay" to his "secret" lair / prison...dumps the dead "Jay" in front of the man in the iron mask and says "well, that complicates things". (if I remember correctly).

 

Why would Zoom bother saying that if he knew that the dead "Jay" was nothing more than a speed remnant and that killing said remnant was always part of the plan. If that was the plan... how did it complicate things?

 

*blink* *blink* *blink*

Edited April 20, 2016 by Gizmo321

[Rai]

I've actually found Teddy Sears kind of lackluster as Jay Garrick, but watching him be all evil?  I don't know.  Now I'm here for that.  He's kinda hot when he's all psychotic.  I was convinced he was going to kill Caitlin when he dropped Barry, but even still, I jumped when he rushed her away.

 

And the way Zoom's scary voice says "Flaaaaaaaaaaaaash" gives me chills every time.

[CocoaGoddess]

Teddy Sears has me sitting on my couch uncomfortable as hell when he gets all intense and ragey. I don't know how Caitlin isn't feeling conflicted right now, because dude is hot.

 

I was also musing about that line Jay uttered after he killed his doppleganger. How does it complicate things if it was all part of the plaaaan? How Jay? 

 

Going back in time and murdering your own "remnant", eh? Playing fast and loose and nonsensical and this isn't possible according to every well written time travel story ever. They better stop playing and give us the real story.

 

"Who's the man in the iron mask?"
 

"You wouldn't believe me if I told you."

 

Grade A trolling right there from the showrunners. 

[nksarmi]

1. I think he did see Supergirl on that test run and didn't bother to tell any of them. Which means there might have been away to get to Earth 2 without Cisco but oh well.

 

2. I'm glad they got Wally back at least.

 

3. I really thought at least Wells was faking but it all looks really real.

 

So yea, I'm having a lot of issues with this whole plot. I will ignore the time remnant twinsey thing and just say ok whatever. Let's talk about what Barry did this episode. On Earth 2, Zoom is dying. Yes he has a mysterious prisoner who would probably like to be rescued, but other than that - he will eventually die. Once the shut the breaches, he has limited access to speedsters - thus speeding up his death.  So while there is always a chance that he will cause some pain and suffering before he dies - there is still an end in sight.

 

So what does Barry do?  Barry opens up a portal to Earth 2. Does Barry stay on Earth 2 and fight him there?  No, no, no.  He brings him to Earth 1 where he can escape and reek havoc and find someone to kidnap that Barry will do anything to rescue. Good plan!  Excellent plan.  WTF Barry!?!?!?!

 

Why didn't Barry and team fight him on Earth 2 where he wouldn't endanger the people he loves? I mean he already got Earth 2 Joe killed and Earth 2 Iris and Barry are on Atlantis with Aquaman so they should be good. Fight him there. Take him down there.  That way if you happen to fail, you can probably still make it back without getting yourself into a blackmail situation where you have to give up your speed!

 

Oh and if Barry is so much faster than Zoom anyway - why didn't he go to Earth 2 to rescue Wally!?!?!?!?!

 

But bottom line - Earth 2 now has a super powered Zoom who can kill anyone he wants and isn't due to die anytime soon and Earth 1 has no Flash.  Yea!  Well done heroes!

[Lantern7]

Sucks if you're a fan of Jay Garrick, whether it's the guy in Earth 2 or the canon guy in the sweet helmet. So there was never really a "Jay," but rather a psychopath with speed powers who posed as a hero to take away hope from people. And I'm ignoring the "time remnant" talk because I don't think anybody on The Flash or Legends of Tomorrow can write a proper time-travel story. Seriously . . . Eobard-as-Harrison terrorizes Barry, and Eddie kills himself in order to negate Reverse Flash's existen- . . . see, I can see all of you trying to shake off the headache. It's a mess.

 

At least Wally and Joe got to bond before Wally got kidnapped. I think the odds are even that Wally will be inducted into Team Flash by the finale. At least he's not as bothersome as he was when he first arrived on the show.

 

Hard to believe that Warner Brothers doesn't have Star Wars the way Cisco was talking about it. I've always regarded him as a putz, but he was never a whiny little snot like Anakin was in the prequels. Now he needs to figure out Reverb's offense-minded powerset. To the DVR with Agents of SHIELD! Nobody tell the lawyers!!

 

I'm going with canon and saying that Wally-2 is Iron Mask.

[KirkB]

Barry is dumb.

 

I mean, he had a good plan. Messing with Zoom, keeping him off balance enough to zap him, and then...what? What was he planning to do after that? Did he think he could talk Zoom down? And just giving him time to recover, that was stupid. Now Zoom is lose on their Earth, and of course he went straight to Joe's because all the people there were both important to Barry and vulnerable. It just happened to be Wally, it could have just as easily been Iris or Joe.

 

I also kind of thought Barry and Wells were tricking Zoom somehow. Or rather, that Wells was up to something. Which he could still be, I guess, but right now Zoom is faster than he's ever been and there is no one on Earth who can stop him.

 

Yes, Barry went to Kara's world and didn't tell anyone. That was the going into one portal coming out another thing, and why he asked how long he'd been gone. It didn't seem to register with any of them though. Barry's ability to travel between worlds on his own wouldn't be of much use for getting back to Earth to on his own. He can't do it on purpose and he can't aim it. I also don't get why he didn't at least say something like "You guys won't believe where I've been."

Edited April 20, 2016 by KirkB

[kirinan]

God, Barry, I thought you might secretly be bluffing. You had me all excited. So I guess kidnapped Caitlin and getting his powers back keeps Barry from getting to Laurel's funeral? 

 

Who's Laurel? Did I miss something?

 

P.S. I love Barry, but he's the worst superhero ever. Always getting beaten up and outwitted.

Edited April 20, 2016 by kirinan

[Gizmo321]

Meanwhile....couldn't Wells have laced the needle with some kind of tranquilizer or poison so when Zoom injected himself he was instantly dealt with?

[benteen]

Good lord, Barry actually GAVE Zoom his powers just like that?  I thought he had a plan but then I realized I was a fool to believe that because Barry Allen is a complete and utter fool.  I said last episode I like flawed heroes but Barry is just too stupid to live.

 

Evidently, Iris and Caitlin's only role in this episode was to talk about their relationships.  Keep doing an amazing job with your female characters, writers.

 

Only plus side is Teddy Seals is a lot more fun when he's playing Evil Jay.

[cambridgeguy]

And that's why you don't gloat over your fallen opponent until after you've tossed him into a secure prison cell. 

 

Zoom actually GAVE them Wally back and trusted Team Flash to be stupid enough to keep their word.  Then they actually did it!!!  Even though the new and improved Barry might have been able to beat him, especially since they were meeting on his home turf!  Being the good guy doesn't mean you can't lie once in a while.

 

There are probably real world legal reasons for Barry keeping his mouth shut about Supergirl but I cannot believe he wouldn't instantly tell Cisco about the superpowered alien he ran into.

[Trini]

A time remnant?? Okaaaayyyy.

It bugged that they still kept calling him "Jay" after they learned Zoom is Hunter Zolomon.

So was there ever a hero Jay Garrick Flash on Earth-2? ::confused::

 

Obvious side-eye to Barry's planning, but I'm also side-eyeing Zoom's plans. He killed Reverb and was just counting on Barry/Team Flash to re-open a breach?

 

I'm hoping Wells didn't actually drain 100% of Barry's Speed Force. If he has a little left, they can figure out how to increase it, right? Right??

 

Poor Wally. Kidnapped the minute he moved into the West house. (How many bedrooms in that place?)

 

... Evidently, Iris and Caitlin's only role in this episode was to talk about their relationships.  Keep doing an amazing job with your female characters, writers.

 

I didn't mind that scene so much because I've been waiting for it for the entire season; but your point still stands.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Trini

[Actionmage]

Whew. Not just me dismayed at the lack of an end run (as it were) from this group of best-and-brightest. *sigh*

 

Barry, hon? You do not have a weaponized degree in psychology or psychiatry ( that was Our Iris once upon a dream), so quit thinking being earnest or whatever will turn every criminal "back" into a neutrotypical citizen. The populace of your Earth would appreciate it.

 

Wally? You thought King Shark and moody Barry was as nuts as it got? Surprise! Welcome to the chaos! The headache reliever of your choice is in the bathroom for you already.

 

Iris. At least she's being verbal about what thoughts on West-Allen she has. I am glad for that, but this could have happened while Barry was dating Patty, maybe.  Or we could have had Eddie being the reason why Iris/Scott doesn't mesh  earlier in the season and then the Earth-2 shenanigans happen.

 

Harry asking Joe to find Jessie? Joe could not find his rehab-escapee wife with a half-hearted search. Jessie is supposed to be much smarter than Francine, even if Jessie doesn't have the ready cash.  Still, I'm glad Joe spoke truth about Barry having a better chance with Harry.

[benteen]

And that's why you don't gloat over your fallen opponent until after you've tossed him into a secure prison cell. 

 

Zoom actually GAVE them Wally back and trusted Team Flash to be stupid enough to keep their word.  Then they actually did it!!!  Even though the new and improved Barry might have been able to beat him, especially since they were meeting on his home turf!  Being the good guy doesn't mean you can't lie once in a while.

 

There are probably real world legal reasons for Barry keeping his mouth shut about Supergirl but I cannot believe he wouldn't instantly tell Cisco about the superpowered alien he ran into.

 

Good God, yes!  Zoom was allowed to escape because Barry absolutely cannot resist spiking the football in the faces of his enemies.

 

It's time Barry's so-called friends start standing up to him and stop treating him like a dictator/cult leader that they cannot disobey.

[Jazzy24]

So did Earth 2 ever have a Flash and who was it if they did?

[Ruby25]

Ok, so...if Hunter Zolomon is a famous serial killer, how did everyone on Earth 2, including Wells, believe he was Jay Garrick? And is there no such person as Jay Garrick (they wouldn't fuck with canon that much, would they?)

 

I liked the Barry/Cisco stuff. I still don't understand why it had to take Iris this long to suddenly have feelings for Barry again. And so, Iris doesn't live in the West house anymore? Even though she did in the last episode? Seriously, what the hell is that about?

 

Gotta admit, Jay's a lot better as a villain. A LOT better.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Ruby25

[foreverevolving]

They should have gone with the twins theory, they really should have!

This episode made me stop and wonder: Why am I still watching this show? Like I like Iris, I love Joe and Harry, Cisco is still cool and I enjoy how they are growing his character, I am getting pissed off that every Caitlin Iris interaction is about a man or their love life, I realized this episode I am growing impatient with Caitlin.

Seriously at least on Arrow I have Felicity and Diggle and Thea and Olicity (well not right now), I also get John Barrowman and Mama Smoak and Nyssa on occasions- which is a nice perk, the fact that they finally killed Because Comics ought to fix about 55% of the show come next season (hopefully the first thing will be the stunts!).

I am no longer sure why I am watching the flash..? I like Barry in general but tonight episode was one of the low points, seriously we have an issue when the best thing about this episode was the villain back story!

 

I second whoever said Sears was hot as crazy Hunter/zoom.. I guess he is like Katie Cassidy? can only do one type of character really good.
On the other hand Jay being a remnant of Zoom may explain why Jay was wooden, he was trying to be someone, something, he is not: i.e. a non sociopath individual!

 

Any way, so are we all in agreement now that since my twin theory is dead the man in the iron mask is most likely Barry's dad?

 

I'm thinking i'll watch till the end of the season but i'm growing tired with the show antics.

[JasmineFlower]

I'm so confused about why The Flash is creating a problem where one doesn't exist.  My main issue is that there was no current threat to the team, nothing actually happening and yet Barry is super intense about ending Zoom, even though the portals were all closed. So, he finds a way to breach them, pushing Cisco further than he probably should (I liked Cisco standing up to him and saying no, too bad he folded and went along with a terrible plan). It didn't make a lot of sense to be that intense when Zoom wasn't having an influence on their or other lives on Earth. So, Barry puts everyone in danger when everyone was safe with no threat of them being in danger because Zoom didn't have a way to get back over without Barry's intervention.

 

Doesn't make sense. So Wally gets taken, Barry loses his speed and Caitlin's been kidnapped. All because Barry was uncomfortable with there being no current threat on Earth? I don't get it. Why couldn't they just be happy for a bit, take the win they achieved while there was no current threat and have a regular life for a bit, that's what used to happen in Central City and needs to get peppered back in here a bit.

 

Also, not loving how they copied Superman losing his powers, felt like a total rip even though for all I know this is from the comics and it predates Superman's version. I think it was the way it happened too that felt too close to Superman's, like the process and the agony of losing it. And maybe I'm putting too much faith into Caitlin and Cisco, but why oh why couldn't they have simulated taking Barry's speed and given Jay/Zoom some instantly debilitating poisonous toxin that can't be worked out of a system that would kill him? Like the kind that would put down 50 gorillas at once if necessary. And don't they have something like that around, wouldn't even have to concoct it because of Grodd? Felt like the Flash's speed was handed over way too easily after already securing Wally. It wasn't like there was a gun to his head at that point.

[phoenics]

That episode was kinda like eating candy... kinda enjoyable while you watched because ACTION!, but afterwards when you're trying to make sense of all the sugar, you are filled with regret.

I just don't get the whole Jay/HZ thing. So - no twins? Just HZ pretending to be Jay Garrick? Didn't anyone on E2 see that he looked just like HZ? No one thought that was weird?

They really should have done the twin thing.

Now I have no clue who is under the mask.

The time remnant thing made no sense... and Barry should have just left the breach closed - eventually Zoom would have died. Barry should have gone into E2 and stolen one of those cages to put Zoom in on E1 and THEN gone after Zoom.

Or you know - just not gone after him at all.

I knew Zoom was going to take Caitlin.

This season has had some issues for sure.

Oh and crazy psychotic Teddy Sears is hot as hell. Finally some life in him.

Edited April 20, 2016 by phoenics

[blugirlami21]

Wtff was that ending? They actually gave him Barry's speed? Seriously? What kind of stupid nonsense is that? This is why we don't tell everyone but your family your secret identity Barry. Wally should have been with you guys to avoid this very situation.

So you guys had time to talk but not time to take him out? I wish this was the Walking Dead and Barry was Rick cause Jay would have been out of commission instantly. Why are we having a chat instead of taking care of business?

He was a terror before and you just gave him even more power and then you let him kidnap your friend. I just don't understand the thought process behind this plan. I just don't.

This is the first time I have ever thought Barry deserved the guilt that he is going to be wallowing in the next couple of episodes. Which I'm dead tired of fyi. You had a half ass plan to capture a dangerous serial killer and it blew up it in your face.

The episode was amazing before that. So much good character scenes and people acting smart and sensibly. Iris not going on her date and acknowledging her feelings for Barry. Harry deciding to join the team. Wally calling Joe dad. That ending tho.

[Jenesis]

Two points right off the bat:

- They really went ahead and gave Zoom Barry's speed? After I got Wally back, I would have been like "Well, here's a speed bullet in the forehead, Jay!" Stupid Team Flash!

- Reverse Flash is Faster than Zoom? Jay/Hunter said doing a speed mirage was beyond him, but Thawne did it more than once. But Thawne couldn't get up enough Speed Force to time travel, which Barry can do and Barry's slower than Zoom. I can't keep up. The Speed Force has no rules!

[Trini]

Was Zoom not a big enough mystery? I don't understand the purpose of the Man in the Iron Mask. With this 'time remnant' reveal, I don't even know if I want to bother guessing anymore.

[Whodunnit]

Barry, Barry, Barry. Your plan started off ok with its psychological aspects, but assuming it would go off without a hitch and just standing there and gloating? Also, as people have pointed out it should either have taken place on Earth 2 or he should have found a way to make sure that every one Jay knew about was safe, not just the ones who were in on the secret.

Dr. Wells was 100% correct, and I thought at the time that he was being a pessimist, but apparently Barry has never heard of a plan B so when plan A went haywire...

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

-  I realized something I should have before now... its usually the bad guy who stops to gloat and the good guy ends up ruining his plans, but Barry is about as good at monologuing to his detriment, when he has a bad guy 'in his grasp'.   If he had of just done whatever to make sure Zolomon was contained 'for good', instead of being all "haha, got ya now, sucka!", maybe that all ends differently.

 

-  So, is this The Flash or Full House? (sorry, I guess its Fuller House now, isn't it?)  Wally moves in, Barry and Iris are still there, or at least sometimes.   And sorry, but they made Joe come off as both stupid and insensitive there when he didn't even make an offer for Wally to crash in his home, when it first came up that he was out of a living arrangement.  You mean he has went through all the trouble of trying to connect with the kid, being his son and all, but doesn't stop to think the kid could use a place to stay, at least temporarily?

 

-  Their gonna make E2-HZ 'obsessed' with Caitlyn, aren't they?  After her plea to not kill Barry, he's gonna believe are their own "one twue wuv".  And then she'll feel sympathetic for him because of his life's sob story.  Blech, whatever.

 

-  Finally some true acknowledgement of the WA from Iris' POV.   Later is preferable to never, so there is that, writers.    

Edited April 20, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Actionmage]

And so, Iris doesn't live in the West house anymore?

 

From how the room looked, Wally's room may be part of the attic/ a converted attic. The sloping roof gave me that feeling. I was guessing that the other bedrooms are on the second floor. So Joe, Iris and Barry may be on the second floor.

 

I love that Cisco is actually cautious about his powers. His fears about becoming like Reverb only prove ( to me, at least) that he won't. Maybe Francisco stayed bitter over his brother and let it eat away to where working with a murderer was cool, as was making his own criminal empire, but that isn't our Cisco. Fran probably never had a qualm about doing much of anything. Cisco does, even when he really shouldn't. Wished I could hug him.

 

I am still on the bus that Earth-Not1Wally is the Iron Mask'd person. I'm okay if I'm wrong, but Man in the Iron Mask seemed discouraged when he couldn't get through to Wally with his code. Since no one else tried to free MitIM, we in the audience don't know if that's a speedster for sure or not. (Someone else trying to break the guy free would have been semi-helpful.)

 

Question: Wasn't Wally out with the group in the bar when Trajectory breezed through? If he was, Jessie was the only one told not to drink, iirc, so Joe must feel close to his biological son. Joe keeps beer downstairs and/or in the garage, but an of age college student isn't allowed any in his room? Granted, Joe's house/rules, but it sounded like absolutely none upstairs.  Which is weird, if he is allowed to keep it in the kitchen/garage. Then again? It's Joe! (Tuesdays, 8PM/7 Central, on The CW!)

 

its usually the bad guy who stops to gloat and the good guy ends up ruining his plans,

 

I wish I could put clips in posts; there's a great Black Adder clip (from its second series) that fits with this sentiment perfectly!

Edited April 20, 2016 by Actionmage

[ottoDbusdriver]

How did Zoom get back to Earth 2 to imprison Wally along with the man in the iron mask ?

 

So, has Wells known all along that Zoom was Hunter Zolomon ?  And never mentioned it before now -- WTF ?  

Because that would be important info to know that they were dealing with a serial killer.

 

But, but, but ... didn't Wells know that Jay Garrick was a known scientist --- BEFORE -- the particle accelerator explosion ?  Or was that also a time remnant ?  This is so confusing.

Edited April 21, 2016 by ottoDbusdriver

[Commando Cody]

Is this how it's going to be every week? Barry making irrational decisions while everyone else tells him to stop? What a mess he made. 

[Whodunnit]

So the whole time remnant thing... does that mean that Zoom and Jay are Austin Powers and Austin Powers Ten Minutes Ago?

How is Zoom even able to kill His younger self/Jay without creating a temporal paradox?

*Repeats MST3K mantra to herself.*

[benteen]

I think a case can be made for Barry going after Zoom.  Until that situation is resolved, the specter of Zoom would always be lingering over him and his friends.  I doubt Zoom have given up on trying to get back to Earth-1 to steal Barry's powers either.  So I can understand wanting to get to Zoom first before Zoom get to him. 

 

But not killing or knocking out Zoom immediately after capturing him so that Barry could basically swing his **** in his face in celebration?  Not having a Plan B and just giving Zoom his powers?  Being too concerned with Earth-2 and using that as his justification for his actions?  None of that makes any sense to me and is just stupid.

[benteen]

I'll also add that Caitlin has pretty much been reduced to Fay Wray opposite Zoom's King Kong.

[Primetimer]

Jay gets a backstory -- and a third name. Can Barry and the gang take him out once and for all, or is the end for The Flash?

Read the story

[Lady Calypso]

Well, that sucked.

 

Honestly, none of it made sense, and every single person had to be stupid in order for the end to happen.

 

Barry, Barry, Barry. You had the breaches closed. It would have taken Zoom a while to find a way back to Earth 1, seeing as he's still after your speed. Why would you open the breach up without having a better plan? Maybe build a cage to trap him in. Maybe find a way to steal his speed, or slow him down further. Then keep shooting him. 

 

Hunter's explanation made no sense. Twins would have been a much better explanation. 

 

Having everyone actually accept Zoom's deal to switch Wally for Barry's speed is fine. But when he actually handed Wally back first, YOU SHOULD HAVE HAD A PLAN B, C, AND D! Yet, nothing! And now Barry's speed is gone. 

 

Cisco worrying about himself becoming Reverb was the only thing I liked about the episode (besides Iris talking to Caitlin). 

 

So what? There was no Jay Garrick ever? Just Hunter Zolomon? And what, did he feign being a hero after the particle accelerator exploded on Earth-2? Because we saw The Flash, and that was Jay....or I guess Hunter? Why would he waste time pretending to be some sort of hero? 

 

Why would Hunter say that we would never believe who the Man in the Iron Mask is? Unless it's him from the future...or the past...or from another Earth....or a guy actually named Jay, I doubt we'll be surprised. I guess the only other option that would surprise me would be Earth-1 Eddie. 

 

I think we're supposed to know that Barry's being stupid, as nobody was initially on his side of his stupid ass plan, but they all went ahead with it anyway? It seriously would have been better if Hunter overpowered Barry and found a way to take his speed himself. But no, of course it has to be Harry to take the speed and give it to Hunter. And look, Caitlin's kidnapped because....Hunter has a thing for Caitlin and this is almost like the Eddie kidnapping all over again, including the part where they think they defeated him, then he tricks them and gets what he wants. 

 

I'll stick around still, but I am truly disappointed with how awful this episode was. I mean, unless someone can actually explain things better that make more sense, because I feel like I'm missing everything. 

[Cthulhudrew]

I suppose it's possible that they could somehow mumbo-jumbo their way to explain why Hunter killing his past version didn't somehow erase his present version...

 

If only they hadn't disposed of the villain from season one by having his ancestor kill him before he was even born.

 

C'mon, guys! Are we just supposed to forget how things were established with time travel in season one (such as they were)?!?!?!?

 

(Plus, all the usual not being impressed by Teddy Sears/Jay Zolomon Zoom and his whole silly story. Not to mention them deciding to gloss over Barry not mentioning that he traveled to another Earth with the tachyon device and instead pressuring everyone else to find some other way of reaching Earth-2).

 

Maybe we'll find out on Legends of Tomorrow that our intrepid time travelers under the oh-so impressive leadership of Rip "Trust Me, I'm Really A Time Master. No Really" Hunter that they screw up the timelines so severely with their antics that Zoom's silly timey-wimey doppelganger stuff is not only possible, but routine.

[Cthulhudrew]

How did Zoom get back to Earth 2 to imprison Wally along with the man in the iron mask ?

 

I'd forgotten about that. Yeah, yet another thing that didn't make any sense. I think the writers are hoping we all have short-term memory. Or maybe they just have Leonard Shelby on staff.

 

I will say Teddy Sears did do a better job of playing flat-out evil Hunter than he has anything else this season.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I will let J. Jonah Jameson do the talking for me when it comes to expressing myself over the absurdity of Barry just giving Zolomon his Speed Force, and there being no invented fail-safe for such a situation between a combined team of very smart scientists and computer whizzes of Barry, Wells, Caitlyn & Cisco.....

[twoods]

It makes more sense to have a Jay from another earth to be that doppelganger.

I can see why team Flash didn't turn on Zoom and try to fight back. Zoom would have killed them all with one swoop. People seem to forget he can do that. Why double cross a psychopath?

I cried when Barry lost his speed. He looked so sad, and then Caitlin's speech- poor girl has such bad luck with love. Damn this show for making me care about the characters and causing me to turn into a blubbering crybaby every episode.

No matter how dumb Barry is, I will keep coming back for more. Bring on hot, crazy Hunter and Caitlin next week. And maybe throw us WestAllen fans a bone or two about her comforting him that he's "just a human?" I did like how Iris finally had a conversation about her and Barry- should have happened during the Patty stuff but I will take it.

Edited April 20, 2016 by twoods

[quarks]

Whoa, what a mess of an episode.

 

Good things:

 

1. I don't know if anyone else noticed, but HEY, in the middle of all of the "This makes no sense," NEW SETS!  THREE OF THEM!  Including a potential new hospital set so that more than one person on Flash and Arrow can get injured at the same time! THAT WAS VERY EXCITING.

 

(Just me? Ok. Moving on.)

 

2. Iris was wearing some really amazing outfits tonight. And we saw her working with Team Flash and joining the plot. Which begs the question of why she wasn't doing this before, but I'll take it.

 

3. And the show sorta remembered that Caitlin was a doctor, kinda.

 

4. I love Cisco's world hopping shades. Very cool.

 

5. Also, Cisco comparing himself to Anakin Skywalker. Hee. And Barry finally encouraging someone else, rather than needing a pep talk.

 

Questionable things:

 

1. I'm sure this was more the fault of CBS than anyone else, but really, Barry comes back from a third Earth, where he's met aliens, and doesn't think this is worth mentioning to his team?

 

2. And speaking of Team Flash, we saw, very clearly, that Barry zipped into a portal and out of another portal while three people were supposedly monitoring him and yet completely failed to notice that he'd vanished. Great job, Team Flash!

 

3. How big is the West house and how many people are staying there? And Joe, if you and Barry can drink a beer or two, Wally can have one too. He's in college. He's drinking. Let him drink in the safety of his new bedroom.

 

4. Are cardboard cutouts of your murdered mother and murdered father really all that upsetting when you are a sociopath serial killer?

 

5. I realize that on this forum, this is just me, but I loved the old Jay Garrick 1940s comics, so this is kinda a punch to the heart, Berlanti. I know you guys like to screw with comic canon, and usually I'm ok with this, but sniffle. I was holding out some hope that a good Jay Garrick was around somewhere.

 

6. Besides "because the script says so" how is Cisco able to vibe to where Zoom is and not someplace else on Earth 2, or, for that matter, Supergirl's world now that we know that world exists? Presumably those are both full sized Earths, so big places!

 

Bad Things:

 

1. Poll time, everyone! You have the choice to:

 

a. Leave Zoom, who will die without the Speed Force, on Earth 2 where he can't get any Speed Force.

 

b. Open up a portal to Earth 2, so that Zoom can come over to Earth 1 and get some Speed Force, thus living to terrorize and kill people for another day!

 

If you answered B, congratulations! You're Barry Allen!

 

2. Poll question number 2. You have superpowers. You have the choice to:

 

a. Try to rescue your friend who is now imprisoned by a serial killer thanks to your stupid decisions

 

b. Give your superpowers to the serial killer.

 

If you answered b, congratulations again! You're STILL Barry Allen!

 

3. Not one of the members of Team Flash, including supposed supergenius Harry Wells, doctor Caitlin, genius Cisco, long time cop Joe, or Iris had the sense to say, "Uh, Barry? Giving up your powers to the bad guy? Heroic, sure, but stupid. Do you have a plan B?"

 

4. And why on earth 1 or 2 did Barry believe that Zoom would hold up to his end of the bargain? The guy's a serial killer who spent months deceiving them.

 

5. Ok, forget Barry for a moment. None of the rest of this makes any sense.  How did Zoom get a Time Construct Double? Why did he want one? What exactly did the Time Construct Double do for him? How did Zoom figure out what his Time Construct Double was thinking and doing while on Earth-1 given that Zoom pretty much killed Time Construct Double the second they met up again, right? Were they having secret shady Time Construct Double meetings where Time Construct (the Jay we saw in the first half of the season) Double explained what he was thinking to Zoom, including things like, so yes, I took Caitlin off to a park and pointed out my Earth-1 Double which means now there's three of us around, which is very confusing so kill me quickly so I don't get a headache?   And wouldn't running fast enough to find and create a Time Construct Double deplete the Speed Force which supposedly is keeping you alive, therefore something you don't want to do?

 

And that's just the Earth-1 stuff. Over on Earth-2, was the Jay Garrick Flash Zoom or this Time Construct Double? In either case, why were Zoom and/or the Time Construct Double pretending to be a hero called Flash who was trying to take down Zoom? How was this helping either one of them get the Speed Force? Since Jay Garrick didn't wear a mask, why didn't anyone notice that Jay Garrick the Flash looked remarkably like Hunter Zolomon the troubled foster kid and serial killer?This all seems unnecessarily complicated even by supervillain standards.

 

6. Finally, Iris and Caitlin get to have a conversation. Which of course turns out to be about a guy. After which, Iris spends the rest of the episode getting coffee for people and reminding the audience that they are watching Barry and Zoom run around, and Caitlin, after a nice tearful please don't hurt Barry bit, gets to be kidnapped.

 

Hey, creative team, I watch your other shows, and they're all doing better than this - including "Hey, let's kill yet another woman!" Arrow and "Hey, let's keep the cool flying girl in a past life love triangle that pretty much defines boredom" Legends of Tomorrow. I'm not expecting any YAY GIRL POWER to rival Supergirl here, but something more than this, thanks.

 

7. Speaking of Caitlin, are we really expecting to believe that although she knows Barry and Team Flash are all about bringing down Zoom, she's failed to mention this rather important information about Jay's Earth-1 counterpart until now? We are? Why do you hate Caitlin, show?

[Actionmage]

Almost forgot! Iris was the first person to Barry's side after he fell off the Cosmic Treadmill! I'll take that as well as the talk with Caitlin. It doesn't buy the writers much, but it was appreciated.

[Ruby25]

I really want next season to have the main plot not have to do with someone trying to steal Barry's speed or constantly getting faster as the only goal. The Flash has a lot of other powers too, and they should explore those- there's SO much more they can do with time travel, obviously.

 

Random example: introduce Bart Allen by having him come to their time in an attempt to prevent some catastrophe that happens to Barry and co. in the future, the seeds of which are planted in the present day. That could easily turn into a season long, Back to the Future-esque arc.

 

There are also plenty of non-speedster villains they could use for the Big Bad.