S06.E16: Last Day On Earth

[Sighed I]

I totally get that.  I agree that of course a lot of fans were not going to enjoy the episode or the cliffhanger.  I really enjoyed it, and I think others enjoyed it as well, but I get the general "WTF!!??" 

Your reaction, I can understand.  To me, it's a more normal reaction to a television show.  It's some of the other, more "emotional" reactions that I can't get, although I do get mileage varies. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to anyone.  But I do have a right to put that out there as much as someone has a right to say they hope Gimple gets fired because he left them feeling disrespected as a fan because of this or that.  And I stand by believing the majority of viewers are not reacting that way.  It's just that the angriest are the most vocal.

.

The main point of what I was trying to say in my initial post (and perhaps I didn't do it very well) is that I don't think a majority of fans are going to get that emotionally invested about their disappointment in the cliffhanger/season finale/show-- the genuine feelings of anger, betrayal, getting FU'd by the show, etc.  I don't connect with reactions and responses of genuine rage and disgust, even when I'm disappointed by the show.  And believe me, I've been disappointed a few times.  It's going to happen.  I even stopped watching here and there.  It's going to happen.  I mean, it happened to me watching The Sopranos and Breaking Bad.  Two, IMO, fantastic series that had it's slow moments, it's dumb moments, and it's WTF moments, but overall are still two of my all-time favorite shows.

 

I can't emphasize it enough-- I'm really not trying to be disrespectful.  I just want to put it out there that hey-- not all of us feel this way and while some of us didn't like the finale and/or cliffhanger, we also don't think the show shit on us as people. 

 

From the showrunners' perspective, I see what they did and why.  The finale was a HUGE topic in the media last night and still today, and will continue to be discussed and picked apart until the October opener.  DId they "mess" with viewers to achieve this?  Sure.  Many shows do, love it or hate it.  Will it pay off in October?  Many are insisting no, but I think they will be fine and that yes they will have the large numbers of viewers tuning back in, love it or hate it.  Will it pay off?  I don't know yet.  It's up to them to deliver on the promise of the story they say this will develop into.

I can respect this point of view, and agree you and anyone else has the right to disagree and voice your opinion, even if it may be an unpopular one, about anything which happens in this show and any other. And perhaps you are right, and after the initial uproar dies down, those of us who are unhappy about the way they handled the build up to Negan and/or how they ended the finale will be in the minority.

 

However, and I am not saying it is you who said this (I don't have time at the moment to search for specific posts), some people have characterized others fans' strong negative reactions to the finale as overly emotional or "butt hurt". And that, IMO, is disrespectful.

 

Yes, I suspect the vast majority of us, myself included, will get over it eventually because our love for the show outweighs our disappointment. But it is just as valid to feel as though you have been manipulated and strung along all season only to discover they intend to string us along for another six months (or more). At least for me, it feels like a cheap publicity stunt, not a valid narrative choice. And right now, some of us need to vent.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a big fan of a show pandering to its audience. I do want them to tell the story they want to tell. At times I, too, have felt some viewers have been overly critical about the show's faults, perceived or otherwise. But after all the hype, all the months of trusting the show runners' repeated assertions that "the wait would be worth it", in the end, at least for me, this whole season-long "here comes the Dreaded Negan and the Saviors" story line [bum bum bum] felt like nothing but a long con and it's left a bitter taste in my mouth.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Sighed I

[peach]

"X"

He was being marked for death to mess with CDB's heads.

 

I thought it was so the audience would remember who the hell it was.  THIS IS THE GUY FROM THE ROAD.  HE'S DEAD NOW.  lol  And of course SEAL Team 6 just stood around exposed and confused again.  Gah, I hated this episode.

[Boofish]

The Saviours knew because they had Daryl, Glenn, Rosita and Michonne - there's no way somebody is not looking for them.

 

Why is everybody so mad at Carl over Enid?  I agreed with what he did.  Enid has seen horrors but she has NEVER experienced the horror of a psychopath doing his worst.  Carl watched as the Governor chopped off Hershel's head.  Carl was in the train car waiting to be eaten.  Carl saw Bob's missing leg and was in the church when the cannibals called out his name and that of his baby sister.  Carl killed a Wolf (Enid was with Glen at the time).  Carl didn't want his woman anywhere near that.  She was being insistent and wouldn't stand down and he didn't have time to convince her so he locked her in.  I get it.  I would have done it too.  At least she'll be alive to hate him.  The ones who went with him, not so much.

Yeah I saw a few caveman, just like your worthless daddy comments and I don't get it either. He didn't push her or force her in. All he did was lock the door. She is in the arsenal someone will come by and let her out. Didn't see it as that big of a deal.

 

Also, Sasha bought up that point in the van. She too expressed bewilderment as to how they knew which direction they were headed. There are only so many roads leading out of Alexandria. These blockades were probably set up after the massacre only no one until now had ventured that far out 

[Ohwell]

Why is everybody so mad at Carl over Enid?

 

My only question was whether he told anyone else.  Otherwise, she'd probably just die in that closet.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Ohwell

[Ronin Jackson]

For all the grief I've been dishing out to the writers over this cliffhanger, I will point out that on occasion, the show has it's moments, and the entire scene leading up to the Lucille moment was generally very well done (save for some not very good attempts at toning down Negan's dialogue). JDM is perfectly cast and he already seems like a much more dynamic villain than The Governor. They did a great job of building up the tension. But that's what makes the way the scene concluded all the more shameful. It completely undermined the power of the scene. This should have been one of the most iconic moments in the show, and it was presented with a cheesy post production blood effect and a cut to black? That's the creative equivalent of fumbling at the one yard line. 

 

But anyway, even though that ending was so bad it doesn't deserve much analysis, it seems to me that if the recurring POV shots of the light coming through the door is connected to the final After Effects Bloody Cheez Whiz POV shot, the person who got Lucilled must have been one of the four characters held captive at the beginning... which likely narrows it down to Glenn or Daryl. Rosita wouldn't have much impact and while it could be Michonne, I doubt they go there. Honestly though I'm more inclined to believe the writers hadn't made up their mind yet.

 

I do think I'm done with this show. I'll read a recap of the season premiere in Oct. to satisfy my curiosity over who was killed. I'm definitely not picking up again with Fear the Walking Dead.

[catcory]

So are we thinking that Carl and Enid are now boyfriend/girlfriend because when she said, "what will I do if something happens to you", I was like WTH was that all about, did I miss something.

[Jordan61]

Yup, if he killed Maggie it would certainly demonstrate that he will never show any mercy BUT it would also prove him is weak by picking on the least threatening member - the same would go if he killed Carl. Not that it's necessarily a great show of strength to kill someone on their knees but he'd be best to take out who he thinks is the biggest physical asset which on looks alone and given he rose up to meet him would be Abraham. I also would be disgusted to see that happen to Maggie, it would be my line in the sand, it's too grotesque.

While I agree with this to a point, killing Maggie also makes sense. I don't know if Negan knows she's pregnant, but he probably knows she's the one doing the wheeling & dealing at with Gregory at Hilltop. As far as they know, she is high up in the hierarchy.

Edited because while to me it makes sense, I really don't think they will go there.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Jordan61

[RustbeltWriter]

The Saviours knew because they had Daryl, Glenn, Rosita and Michonne - there's no way somebody is not looking for them.

 

Why is everybody so mad at Carl over Enid?  I agreed with what he did.  Enid has seen horrors but she has NEVER experienced the horror of a psychopath doing his worst.  Carl watched as the Governor chopped off Hershel's head.  Carl was in the train car waiting to be eaten.  Carl saw Bob's missing leg and was in the church when the cannibals called out his name and that of his baby sister.  Carl killed a Wolf (Enid was with Glen at the time).  Carl didn't want his woman anywhere near that.  She was being insistent and wouldn't stand down and he didn't have time to convince her so he locked her in.  I get it.  I would have done it too.  At least she'll be alive to hate him.  The ones who went with him, not so much.

 

Okay, I can see that but then you'd think mustache guy would ask Rick if they were looking for their missing people. Rick didn't even know the Saviors had them because he didn't ask after them. If mustache guy just said, "Hey, are you looking for the chick with the sword and bleeding Daryl?" we would have been saved 45 minutes of watching the RV back up.

[peach]

One of the most disrespectful things about this scenario is that the show runners seem to think that all the fans care about is who is getting killed, like it's some morbid wheel of fortune. But I believe that while of course we want to know who dies because we will be sad/angry if it is our favourite character and will be sad for the rest of the crew having to group with to witness it, the more interesting thing is the reaction to that death.

 

This is where the show has been falling down for me all season long.  They waste so much time on stuff I don't care about, while not showing me stuff I do. 

 

Glenn goes missing, and Maggie's reaction is whispered down on a street corner while the show focuses on Deanna.  Carl gets his eye shot out, then next episode is suddenly 2 months later?  Wtf?  Carl's made one sad comment about it, but the reaction to this life altering event is never discussed.  This is how they ruined the whole season of Fear The Walking Dead : 

"nine days later..."

 

Now they have killed a core character...and AGAIN we don't get the reaction.  As God as my witness, if they start next season with a time jump, I will break something.  It's not because I have to know who it is, it's because I want to see what happens to everyone else!

[slade3]

Look, I'm supposed to be working but I had to throw this in because I've been in deep thought about it.  First of all I always love when AL shows Rick crumbling under pressure.  His breakdown over Lori left me in stunned silence, becuase I've never seen a man on tv or movies cry like that.  And it was AWESOME.  Well now we have this scene and I've loved the point by point explanations of it.  I want to add a little something though.

 

I think Rick really was breaking but I also think that it was strategic breaking.  Negan wanted to punish HIM.  He didn't care about the others - they are just new slaves.  But he was going to make Rick pay for his actions.  It was the first thing he said.  I think if Rick stared him down like Carl, Michonne and Abe he would have killed every last one of them.  He dared Rick to defy him.  Just like Joe and the Claimers, Rick was told that his punishment would be to watch the people he loves killed in front of him FIRST.  Negan wanted a show of bravado.  Rick instead showed him his belly.  Why do I think that was calculation?  Because in the moment of your death, when you are actually with the people closest to your heart, you look at them.  You die with their image in you retinas.  That's instinct.  That is natural.  But notice Rick looked at the ground, he never once looked at Michonne, never once at Carl.  He didn't want Negan to know which death would hurt him the most.  That was strategy - to make Negan pick rather than showing him who to choose.  To the bitter end Rick protected who he could the only way he could.

 

Which leads me to who I think Negan chose.  I think he chose Glenn.  The reason is because Negan is a calculating sadist.  He knows that Carl's death would hurt Rick the most but there is wisdom in keeping Carl alive.  For starters, if he killed the child, NONE of the adults would ever comply and he would lose the whole crop.  And knowing that he is going to keep Rick breathing in order to torture him, he knows that he will be most tortured by the POSSIBILITY of harm to Carl.  If Carl died, Rick would most likely simply be suicidal and utterly useless and impervious to threats.  So knowing that, my guess is that Negan went for the most impact.  He needed to SEE somebody devastated by the death of a loved one - not just a friend.  Glenn's outburst showed him that Maggie was his woman and most likely this love is reciprocal.  He was with three separate couples but he did not know that because our awesome CDB played the poker game to the last card.  So my guess is that he wanted to hear somebody really scream and really cry and the best bet would be Maggie for Glenn.  Not a spoiler, just my guess.

Really well said. I have to take this to the spoiler/speculation thread though because I have a theory on it, too.

 

ETA: I alos agree with you about Rick's reaction/AL's acting when he learned Lori died. That was such an excellent scene.

Edited April 4, 2016 by slade3

[Happy Harpy]

Michonne needs to be the leader of CDB. Rick can be First Lady.

What, it wasn't already a done deal? :D Rick would be so turned on by Leader Michonne. Scratch that, he already is.

 

I just had lunch with a friend who is a huge TWD, but never visits the forum and hardly goes online to find out about the show. I braced myself for her being angry about the cliffhanger or disappointed in the episode instead it turned out that she loved it and had no problem with the cliffhanger. We spent the whole of lunch discussing the plot and debating who Negan killed. She cannot wait for next season. I realized then that I am right not to get caught up with the opinions of online fans who are a tiny minority of the whole viewing audience.

My hairdresser is a fan and 100% offline (she doesn't even speak English). Today, she wasn't angry about the cliffhanger, but she said she had enough of shows "not having balls shit" and asked me if TWD was going to become "as boring as GOT", which she got tired of at the beginning of S5 (her opinion, certainly not mine). TWD won't be appointment TV for her (and her BF) anymore.  I do agree that online fans can't represent the whole audience, and in particular instances are a vocal minority. But one offliner doesn't represent the whole offline opinion either.

 

When a negative reaction is as widespread as it seems to be about this season finale, especially when it isn't about a character or a ship in particular, themes that tend to strongly mobilize online fandoms, imo it has better chance to reflect offliners opinions, too. I mean, I remember  assertions that  offliners just loved loved loved Gizzie on Grey's Anatomy as opposed to internet meanies (and yet, it's now an example of what not to do) or how offliners weren't upset about the HIMYM ending (and yet, the showrunners still have to get another show whereas CBS cares about money and nothing else). There are instances when a tiny minority happens to reflect quite faithfully the general opinion (aka polls).

 

Just in case, I don't mean to imply that people who didn't like the finale are right and those who liked it are wrong. I just think it's a bit too early to know if it's solely an internet phenomenon or if it affects a larger audience.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[Sighed I]

All the discussion about who was brave and the Rick-analysis is so interesting.   I tend to think 50-year old women with disarming grey hair aren't the only people who would do well to hone "subterfuge" as another weapon in the arsenal.

 

I might just be sadly deficient in pride, but "spit in his eye and die" seems like the wrong tack.  Remember how great it was when the door slammed shut on train car A and Rick growled, "They've fucked with the wrong people"?  To paraphrase a popular Oprah self-defense tip:  Make sure you get taken to the second location.  Proceed to regroup.

 

Maybe/probably Rick was in crisis, but I'd be happy if he were deftly demonstrating the wisdom of not antagonizing the dude with the bat.

********

 

Oh, crap, I just realized I'm speaking Enid.  Just Survive Somehow.

 

 

Sighed I, on 04 Apr 2016 - 2:23 PM, said:

   

I liked this as well. Michonne and Abe stared down Negan too, and were far braver than I would have been (likely catatonic in a fetal position, lying in a pool of vomit and excrement) but Carl was cold as ice, the embodiment of "don't ever let them see you sweat."

   

I agree there was some foreshadowing there. I think Carl's unwavering defiance impressed Negan. What better way to break Rick's will than to take his son and turn him against his father?

 

I think I messed up the formatting here a bit, but since you quoted me I wanted to clarify my comment.

 

I think everyone in CDB was scared shitless, Carl included. But his reaction, along with Michonne and Abe's, were in stark contrast with the others. I read it more as they all knew one of them was going to die, but (in Abe's case) he was willing to sacrifice himself to protect Sasha (and perhaps the others). In Michonne and Carl's case I think it was more of a "if you are going to kill me I will not cower and let you take my dignity as well." In Carl's case, I suspect there was also some (teenage) anger and defiance mixed in there.

 

The gang's reaction fascinated me because it brought to mind the Kobayashi Maru test from Star Trek. How do you conduct yourself in a no-win situation? Some cowered and pleaded with their eyes (Eugene), some avoided eye contact and knelt, back straight, tears streaming down their face (Sasha), some seemed to dissociate completely (Rick). I was less surprised by Michonne and Abe's stoicism, because it was very much part of their character. But Carl surprised me.

 

Why did Negan choose the person he did? Did the way each individual responded in that moment have anything to do with it? It may be an interesting angle to ponder, once we find out who he killed.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Sighed I

[NorthstarATL]

So much yes to your whole post.  They've been screwed before.  Rick watched the Governor lop off Hershel's head right in front of him.  He's been tied in front of a trough while people had their throats slit 3 feet away from him. Beth got her brains blown out within arm's reach.  He's been kidnapped, outnumbered, outgunned, beat almost to death, and literally brought to his knees before this.  They're hopeless, helpless, and stuck at the moment, and they're going to lose someone, but cowering like a dog is not something that's in him, or at least this particular scenario wasn't enough in my mind to produce that. 

 

The only thing that makes any sense to me is that he wanted to present himself that way in order not to draw harm upon Carl.  I will at least make that my head canon, and that his kernel of psycho is still burning bright to kill the hell out of everyone twice for this.

Also, Rick has had downtime now where he has established a new relationship, showered and shaved, and began to get a little too big for his britches in thinking that his group was not only safe but "badass" enough to remove the bullies from the block. Seeing that all go to pieces and then sharing that moment of almost certain death with his son, lover, and friends no doubt was even harder than before, when survival was an everyday struggle.

[Anela]

I think it was Glenn, just because this guy comes across as the sort of dick who would tell someone they're safe, "the first one is free" and then kill them anyway. 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Anela

[Dodginblue]

I think I messed up the formatting here a bit, but since you quoted me I wanted to clarify my comment.

 

I think everyone in CDB was scared shitless, Carl included. But his reaction, along with Michonne and Abe's, were in stark contrast with the others. I read it more as they all knew one of them was going to die, but (in Abe's case) he was willing to sacrifice himself to protect Sasha (and perhaps the others). In Michonne and Carl's case I think it was more of a "if you are going to kill me I will not cower and let you take my dignity as well." In Carl's case, I suspect there was also some (teenage) anger and defiance mixed in there.

 

The gang's reaction fascinated me because it brought to mind the Kobayashi Maru test from Star Trek. How do you conduct yourself in a no-win situation? Some cowered and pleaded with their eyes (Eugene), some avoided eye contact and knelt, back straight, tears streaming down their face (Sasha), some seemed to dissociate completely (Rick). I was less surprised by Michonne and Abe's stoicism, because it was very much part of their character. But Carl surprised me.

 

Why did Negan choose the person he did? Did the way each individual responded in that moment have anything to do with it? It may be an interesting angle to ponder, once we find out who he killed.

I'd like to believe that Rick had pulled in his force field and was desperately trying to think through a way out of this.  Which doesn't mean he wasn't scared, I think they all would be terrified and that a fair number of the people behind Negan would be frightened, too.  

 

i think Rick has courage, more than anything, certainly more than brains.  I don't think it's deserted him now, and I think he knows how to manage his fear, I hope so anyway!

[GaT]

So I guess Carol is going to come to the rescue again, just like she did at Terminus.  

I think we'll see her riding in on horseback with all the "knights" in armor & Morgan.

[lmsweb]

OK, can't remember who said JDM wasn't intimidating because he is "just a little guy" but JDM is a solid 6'1, 6'2

[Sighed I]

I'd like to believe that Rick had pulled in his force field and was desperately trying to think through a way out of this.  Which doesn't mean he wasn't scared, I think they all would be terrified and that a fair number of the people behind Negan would be frightened, too.  

 

i think Rick has courage, more than anything, certainly more than brains.  I don't think it's deserted him now, and I think he knows how to manage his fear, I hope so anyway!

 

I would like that too, and he really is at his best when the shit hits the fan. It seems like he acts on instinct; maybe it's the cop in him.

 

I've just never seen him looking so pale, frightened and impotent. Even in Terminus, when they had them kneeling over that trough, he didn't appear panicked. He was getting out of that situation, period. In the current situation, however, I fear this may be the first time where Rick is out of his depth. Of course I have faith they will ultimately prevail. :) It'll just take much longer, with a lot of bitter pills to swallow along the way.

 

I will have to rewatch the episode and see if my interpretation of his reaction changes. I was so pissed off about the cliffhanger, for the first time I didn't watch the episode twice the same night. LOL

Edited April 4, 2016 by Sighed I

[Dodginblue]

I think we'll see her riding in on horseback with all the "knights" in armor & Morgan.

I, of course, have no idea what's going to happen but I really hope this is not what happens and I'm fairly sure it couldn't happen.  Carol is an emotional mess and she has three gunshot wounds.   And the guys who rescued her seem to be armed with spears, not exactly the kind of ordnance you need to take on the Saviors.

[AngelaHunter]

In Carl's case, I suspect there was also some (teenage) anger and defiance mixed in there.

 

I've always seen Carl as a future "Mad Max" - no education to draw on, no memories of normal life, nothing but kill or be killed, dog eat dog, no mercy and the strongest survives. He doesn't have the norms of civilization in his memories and nothing shocks him anymore.

 

If mustache guy just said, "Hey, are you looking for the chick with the sword and bleeding Daryl?" we would have been saved 45 minutes of watching the RV back up.

 

If we took out all the backing up, all the eye-fucking in the van, all the endless, pseudo-deep, yet ultimately meaningless dialogue we'd have been left with precious little. Really, Rick could have comforted Maggie with fewer words. I never thought I would FF during a finale of any show, but I just had to this time.

[peach]

I would like that too, and he really is at his best when the shit hits the fan. It seems like he acts on instinct; maybe it's the cop in him.

 

I've just never seen him looking so pale, frightened and impotent. Even in Terminus, when they had them kneeling over that trough, he didn't appear panicked. He was getting out of that situation, period. In the current situation, however, I fear this may be the first time where Rick is out of his depth. Of course I have faith they will ultimately prevail. :) It'll just take much longer, with a lot of bitter pills to swallow along the way.

 

Well, the show keeps insisting that Negan is so much worse than what they've encountered before, but I feel like his only advantage is numbers.  Which is an advantage, to be sure.  But there's nothing particularly extra about Negan, IMO.

[SoSueMe]

My only question was whether her told anyone else.  Otherwise, she'd probably just die in that closet.

It was the gun closet wasn't it? At some point she could load up and blast her way out, maybe?

[scrb]

Enid is using her hidden walkie talkie to radio ahead to the Survivors that the RV is coming.

[Dodginblue]

I've always seen Carl as a future "Mad Max" - no education to draw on, no memories of normal life, nothing but kill or be killed, dog eat dog, no mercy and the strongest survives. He doesn't have the norms of civilization in his memories and nothing shocks him anymore.

 

If we took out all the backing up, all the eye-fucking in the van, all the endless, pseudo-deep, yet ultimately meaningless dialogue we'd have been left with precious little. Really, Rick could have comforted Maggie with fewer words. I never thought I would FF during a finale of any show, but I just had to this time.

He does have empathy.  Carl helping Spencer, driving Deanna towards him so he could put her down.  Which, I know, that's what passes for care and consideration in the ZA, kind of funny but also sort of terrible at the same time.

 

Mad Max is a good example, I think, except maybe not a loner.  

[Sighed I]

Well, the show keeps insisting that Negan is so much worse than what they've encountered before, but I feel like his only advantage is numbers.  Which is an advantage, to be sure.  But there's nothing particularly extra about Negan, IMO.

Very true. There's been much discussion about Rick's overconfidence and hubris, but my guess is that is applicable to Negan, tenfold.

 

Negan's weakness is ruling by terror. It's been working for him in a big way thus far, and the Saviors we've encountered appear to have drunk the Kool Aid, but his people aren't loyal to him because he's family.

 

He's never come across the likes of Rick and Co. before, though. He has no idea what they've been through, not to mention they are motivated by love for family. That alone gives them a major advantage over Negan. History has shown having something to fight for can overcome seemingly impossible odds. In the end, the Saviors will rue the day they fucked with CDB, assuming any of them will be left to tell the tale.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Sighed I

[Watcher0363]

That's why he locked her in a closet.  lol  Carl doesn't have a lot of social experience.  I think he and Enid can work past this. 

I seriously doubt it. There is only one way this story could play out. JSS girl, has truly taken the somehow to heart. I know an Anakin when I see one, especially one who knows how to read the Brothers Grimm's.

 

As for Carol, the writers have really done your character well. Because, despite all the things you have done the past 3 seasons, you are fundamentally the same person you were in season 1. A self loathing, woe is me victim, constantly on the look out for a pity party. All her actions past and future, no matter the route, all are in pursuit of the ultimate pity party. Having said that, your journey is very entertaining.

[peach]

I seriously doubt it. There is only one way this story could play out. JSS girl, has truly taken the somehow to heart. I know an Anakin when I see one, especially one who knows how to read the Brothers Grimm's.

 

Seeing as it's fiction, there are plenty of ways it can play out.  They're 16, I seriously doubt she's going to hate him forever for not letting her go on the brain bashing field trip, especially if it's Glenn's head that was eradicated.  But maybe she and Carl can have a gender studies seminar when he gets back.

[meep.meep]

"From Seinfeld: Don't you hate "to be continued" on TV. It's horrible when you sense the "to be continued" coming. You know, you're watching the show. You're into the story. There's like five minutes left and suddenly you realize, "Hey, they can't make it." Timmy's still stuck in the cave. There's no way they wrap this up in five minutes. I mean the whole reason you watch a TV show is because it ends. If I want a long boring story with no point to it, I have my life."

 

The audience can deal with big events occurring.  We just don't like to be played for fools.  And that's what Gimple/Kirkman did at the mid-season finale, and that's what they did with this real finale.  

 

And I bet they manage to stretch it out over the next three episodes before they reveal who got killed.  Over the next six if they're feeling really artistic.

 

Dial's full of shows, especially on Sunday night.  

[TigerLynx]

I've never read the comics so I don't know anything about how the SLs played out there.  I think on the show these SLs would be better if they didn't all seem to exist in their own little bubble.  Rick's group wanders around all over the place, and never encounters a group until it's time for their story, and then they run into them all the time.  It seems like Woodbury, the Claimers, Terminus, Alexandria, the Unfair Wolves, the Hospital psychos, Negan's group, Hilltop, the Knights, etc., would have had at least some interaction beyond hey we've all run into Rick's group, and either killed some of his people, got killed ourselves, or both.

 

I'm hoping Glenn wasn't the one Negan killed, but I think Glenn, Eugene or Abraham got Lucilled.

 

Carl locking Enid in the closet was all kinds of WTH.

[lulee]

I think we'll see her riding in on horseback with all the "knights" in armor & Morgan.

My speculation is that Carol's going to need significant time to recover and Morgan will hang around to be her guru. If they get in with the Knights of Tron community, then they could be part of that brigade, but I think the days of Rambo Carol are in the past.

[ShadowSixx]

I've never read the comics so I don't know anything about how the SLs played out there.  I think on the show these SLs would be better if they didn't all seem to exist in their own little bubble.  Rick's group wanders around all over the place, and never encounters a group until it's time for their story, and then they run into them all the time.  It seems like Woodbury, the Claimers, Terminus, Alexandria, the Unfair Wolves, the Hospital psychos, Negan's group, Hilltop, the Knights, etc., would have had at least some interaction beyond hey we've all run into Rick's group, and either killed some of his people, got killed ourselves, or both.

 

I'm hoping Glenn wasn't the one Negan killed, but I think Glenn, Eugene or Abraham got Lucilled.

 

Carl locking Enid in the closet was all kinds of WTH.

 

As I said I'm not worried about Rick, Carl, Maggie, & Michonne that much. Their percentage rate is very low on being Lucielle'd. 

 

Long running characters I think Glenn & Daryl are in trouble the most. There's not going to be much of anything if it's Sasha, Rosita, Eugene, or Aaron that gets the bat because they haven't left a mark on the group just yet. If it is one of them four it would be very bad storytelling. It needs to be someone that the whole group cares about in general.

 

I'll be happy and jump over the moon if it's Abe. I want him gone but if I'm going by history characters I always want dead never gets the axe and always characters I like that gets struck down.  

[SimoneS]

I've always seen Carl as a future "Mad Max" - no education to draw on, no memories of normal life, nothing but kill or be killed, dog eat dog, no mercy and the strongest survives. He doesn't have the norms of civilization in his memories and nothing shocks him anymore.

Except Carl does have lots of memories of the world before it fell apart. He is very compassionate and loving. Carl was forgiving to Ron after he tried to kill him. He gave Maggie the music box to comfort her when Beth died. He tried to help that guy who was being attacked and then ran to help Gabriel. He didn't give up on Gabriel despite Rick's skepticism. Carl certainly isn't a loner. He adores his little sister and he wants to do whatever it takes to protect his people. Carl is his father's son. I think he will grow up to be just like Rick and will have many of the same flaws. The only way I see Carl being different is that he will be less likely to debate and torment himself over killing the bad guys.

Edited April 5, 2016 by SimoneS

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

Well, the show keeps insisting that Negan is so much worse than what they've encountered before, but I feel like his only advantage is numbers.

 

I agree. For some reason, I actually found Joe much more terrifying and threatening from the very first time we met him.

 

Except Carl does have lots of memories of the world before it fell apart. He is very compassionate.

 

Yes, but he's very young. Maybe Mad Max had more compassion at that age, when he still had family and civlized people around him who cared for him and to whom he had attachments.

Edited April 5, 2016 by AngelaHunter

[Ohwell]

When Abraham was talking about making babies and looked over at Sasha, I threw up in my mouth a little.

[EllenC]

[Raises hand] :-)

I said guys in medieval knight/ Tron suits, but I think "Tron knights" or "Knights of Tron" work well. They're something to look forward to next season. Just from their scene with Morgan, they seem non-psychotic and resourceful.

Yay! I knew I should go back to the Live Chat and check -- but I've honestly spent WAY too much time on this show today as it is. 

 

In the midst of so much angst in TWD world, do you think the actors who portray Gabriel, Enid, Spencer, Tobin, etc. are going, "Hey, cool, we're gonna get some face time in the season 7 preview trailer!"

 

Or maybe it will only be Rick, Carl and Negan -- with a splash of Morgan, Carol, Jesus (remember him) and Gregory or whoever from Hilltop, Tron Knights etc.

When Abraham was talking about making babies and looked over at Sasha, I threw up in my mouth a little.

When Negan made his comment related to his own facial hair while looking at Abe, I wondered for a sec if he was thinking, "*$, what is up with this weirdo? I'm leaving him alive just to annoy viewers, I mean these other jokers. And well, he does look like he's capable of getting me a lot of stuff. And thangs."

[SharonH58]

And how did they know it would be that day?  I mean, I presume they were watching Alexandria and could have signaled ahead... wait, no, because then what's the point of the cat and mouse game all episode... you know what?   I'm already putting too much thought into it.

My work group and a review I read mentioned the theory that it was Enid.  That Enid had given Maggie something to eat before she cut her hair and had the stomach pains.  Assuming that Negan's group knew the poisoning was 'that' day.  We still haven't got an explanation for what she was about to say when the Wolves attacked,  'this place is too big to protect.  something about that is why "we" and then Carl cut her off.  He brought up that part again saying this place isn't too big to protect.

[mustbekarma]

  Negan is more powerful, but he doesn't fucking eat people.

Yet. If he hears the story of Terminus, that might give him ideas.

[Enigma X]

the writers make the plot determine the characters and not the other way around

 

This is exactly what my main issue with the show has been.

[ADawn05]

I think that they made a mistake going with a cliffhanger/breaking up the big scene.  All that build-up felt like it was for nothing because we'll never get that tension or feeling of first meeting Negan back again. Even if it picks up right where we left off it just won’t be the same. That being said, I like JDM and I thought he did a great job. I just wish things had ended a bit differently.  And I’m not even going to play the #Whoisit? game that they’re pimping because it’s pointless. It’ll be spoiled soon anyway.

[Dodginblue]

Yet. If he hears the story of Terminus, that might give him ideas.

Let's hope not

 

My work group and a review I read mentioned the theory that it was Enid.  That Enid had given Maggie something to eat before she cut her hair and had the stomach pains.  Assuming that Negan's group knew the poisoning was 'that' day.  We still haven't got an explanation for what she was about to say when the Wolves attacked,  'this place is too big to protect.  something about that is why "we" and then Carl cut her off.  He brought up that part again saying this place isn't too big to protect.

 

I think it's possible that treachery is involved but I also think that the Saviors didn't need to manufacture a reason for the ASZers to leave the compound.  They presumably have spotters watching for any activity and they may have had some of the various road blocks already set up, just needing to be manned or whatever.  I mean, it's not like they have much else to do but hang around the road waiting to see who shows up.  It wasn't clear to me if they even cared who was in the RV, they were just looking for ways to pick off the ASZ group whenever an opportunity presented itself.

[Snaporaz]

Jeffrey Dean Morgan doesn't do a thing for me, and he never has.

But that guy in the riot gear (I believe he has officially been dubbed "Tron Knight") offering help to Morgan and Carol? Yeah...he can stay. Please!

I don't normally mind cliffhangers, but it is a long, long time to wait...

[lookattheflowers]

Pretty good episode with the exception of the god awful cliffhanger.

AL did a hell of a good job, he actually made me feel what he was feeling.

I despise Comic Negan, I have a feeling that I'm also going to despise TV Negan. Way too cartoonishy already, they just omitted the f-bombs.

I actually enjoyed the Carol/Morgan storyline.

The endless Lucille speculation that is going to continue for another 7 months, makes me want to jump out of a window.

Did anyone else expect Katniss Everdeen to pop out from behind the trees when the whisteling started? No? Guess it was just me then.

[SimoneS]

But that guy in the riot gear (I believe he has officially been dubbed "Tron Knight") offering help to Morgan and Carol? Yeah...he can stay. Please!

Yeah, the Riot Gear Guy was pretty hot. I would accept a ride from him or the reverse. Ha.

I don't get the JDM thing and I don't think that he is a good actor, but Negan doesn't take much so he should be fine.

I also thought Danai was stunning last night. Fury looks good on Michonne.

Edited April 5, 2016 by SimoneS

[Dodginblue]

Honestly, I've been getting sick of this show a lot lately. It runs in circles, drags on endlessly, manipulates heavily, the writers make the plot determine the characters and not the other way around and the stories themselves have only been so-so. The few good moments that the show occasionally has have stopped making up for that, yet I will probably be back for S7, because I really like the actors on this show.

 

But this show needs new writers (and maybe stop forcing the source material so heavily into the show).

I know what you mean and I've thought that too but in a weird way it seems to fit with how life in a ZA would be like, chaotic and random and mostly pointless.

 

That said, I do think they have become too dependent on our willingness to suspend disbelief and not mind when they make the characters say and do inconsistent or ridiculous things because we're just so happy to watch them on-screen.

 

Whoever does the casting for this show deserves an Emmy.

[catcory]

One thing I was wondering about, do you think that Glenn was beat up, he looked like he could barely walk. I can also imagine that Michonne would put up a fight when they were cutting her hair and taking her vest. Rosita looked pretty tearful.

[Pete Martell]

One of the things that annoyed me about the last scene - more than the cliffhanger aspect (which I'd made peace with) - is how much it seemed like one of those old FMV games from the '90s, one of the "you died - game over" scenes. Even the blood running down the lens. 

 

It's a shame that the controversy, as much as I understand it, will overshadow how good the cast was this week. I really have not seen Andrew Lincoln give a better performance than he did in that final 10 minutes, and that moment where Morgan shot the shit out of that guy, and you could see the pent-up anger and madness with every bullet, was superb work. 

 

It's always going to bother me that the cast gets no awards recognition. And I don't think it's down to the writing, as worse written shows than TWD at its worst have gotten truckfuls of awards. It's the genre and elitism. It's a shame. 

JDM was super-creepy. But he talked too much. His whole speech could have been cut down to five minutes and there still would have been enough tension. The fact that he actually talked for ten minutes straight made it just seem like he would go on forever and it took me out of the moment.

 

That didn't bother me as much as I thought it would. The dialogue got very repetitive very fast, but he sold it well. It didn't feel like ten minutes.

 

I do wish they had cut out the bit where Glenn freaked out when he threatened Maggie. It felt redundant to what we'd already seen when he came out of the truck.

 

Then again, if they hadn't had that, people would have said he was a wuss and wasn't defending his wife...

[Enigma X]

Jeffrey Dean Morgan doesn't do a thing for me, and he never has.

But that guy in the riot gear (I believe he has officially been dubbed "Tron Knight") offering help to Morgan and Carol? Yeah...he can stay. Please!

I don't normally mind cliffhangers, but it is a long, long time to wait...

 

I will admit that I find lead Tron knight hotter than JDM. grrrrowl!

[mandolin]

I don't have many original thoughts at this point (I was away from electronics all day and couldn't post!), but I'll throw in my 2 cents.

The episode did not need to be 90 minutes for what they did with it. I allowed myself to read spoilers during DumpsterGate because I hated it, but I stayed spoiler free for this finale. I am a comic reader, so I know what happens there. As soon as I could tell they were going to cliffhanger us, I was extremely disappointed. WHY do they keep attempting these cheap moments? I don't want to feel punked by this show all the time. The buildup went nowhere.

I enjoyed JDM's portrayal a lot. Really did. A bit too much speechifying, but what do I expect on this show? The grin he kept showing was perfect. I found him strangely attractive even. Good work, casting folks. I think they have the opportunity to do good things with him. But will they succeed? Questionable.

The biggest struggle I have with the show these days continues. I don't feel like anything ever actually happens, or that I don't really know the players anymore. Not like I did in seasons 2 and 3. Many people didn't like so much talkiness then, but that's when we learned what made them tick. They have so little downtime now, I feel events just rush by and things happen to these CHARACTERS not these PEOPLE. Even when they have downtime, they make stupid OOC decisions and trucks full of supplies end up under water.

As far as the show following the comics or not, I bring this up frequently, but NEVER FORGET the Grady storyline. Not from the comics in any way. They improve many things, but that story is the biggest blunder this show has ever made IMO.

I just wish they'd focus more on the people and less on things happening to them, and I could get to know the characters I fell in love with again. I'll watch many early episodes over and over, and there have been a few of those in recent seasons but not nearly with the consistency of the early days. I really started struggling when Gimple did the episodes focusing on small groups in season 4.

I don't understand what they thing they need 90 minutes for, really. My husband hate watches, and he agreed.

Edited April 5, 2016 by mandolin

[Persnickety1]

This was so unnecessary. This is more of a mid season move, not a season finale. Like people weren't going to tune in for S7 opening if they show who got Lucilled?

 

And anyway, it will be spoiled eventually, because I doubt they would leave the actors up in the air, only to let the poor bastard out of a job when it's too late to get casted for tv next season.

Personally, I don't care, if spoilers get out, I'll read them. I'm not gonna entertain the producers and their mystery bullshit writing.

 

I'll bet the "victim" knows who they are but none of the other cast knows who the victim is.

 

Dear gawd, that's such a butchery of grammar that maybe I should go kneel in front of Negan.

 

But I'd prefer to kneel in front of Jesus.  I was hoping for a Jesus sighting in the finale but...le sigh, no such luck.  

 

And I'll venture a guess that Abraham met Lucille last night.  He was the only one who wasn't showing any sign of fear and if I were an alpha male asshole like Negan, I'd want to take out the one who looked like they would be resistant and present a potential problem.  And that "taking it like a man" comment kind of cemented it as Abraham in my mind.

 

Well, that and the fact whoever Negan played Whac-A-Mole with didn't have any hair in their eyes, so that quickly eliminated everyone but Abraham and Eugene for me.

 

Yeah, I spend way too much time analyzing this show...but I loved the finale (those roadblocks and Rick's increasingly panicked reaction to them were fantastic).  

 

I'm all in for next season...but hoping to be spoiled before October.  

Edited April 5, 2016 by Persnickety1

[FishyJoe]

Yes, but he's very young. Maybe Mad Max had more compassion at that age, when he still had family and civlized people around him who cared for him and to whom he had attachments.

 

Mad Max was a police officer. His family was killed and he became unhinged. If anything, Rick is the one most like Max.