S05.E14: Devil's Due

[YaddaYadda]

Was Jane purposely trying to make a connection between Rumple deciding Milah's future fate for her by choosing to give up the child without asking her about it first, and Emma deciding Hook's future fate for him by choosing to split her heart and share it with him without asking him about it first? Or am I just reaching here?

I'm pretty sure it's leading somewhere. Emma has made some choices fornHookmthat he wasn't exactly down with, and he didn't lookmall that thrilled with the heart splitting when she mentioned it.

I guess we'll know what's going on in his head next week.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Let me guess - our intrepid heroes will find a way to release everyone who's been dumped into the River Styx/Ectoplasm central only to have Rumpelstiltskin kill Milah a third time?

Can we stop pretending Rumple is worth redeeming now that he's murdered his wife twice?  Or am I still supposed to feel sorry for this unrepentant murderer because his evil schemes backfired.

I can already hear the writers: "But he did it for twu wuv! And wee little Bae 2.0! He was being noble! He had to sacrifice Milah to save his new family!" Ugh.
 

The horse clearly represents purgatory...no wait they're already in purgatory...its represents Regina's mother...but we just saw Regina's mother...it represents that horse running around in the opening credits of Deadwood...because that represented something...I need to sleep on it.

Now I'm picturing Bullock and Swearengen striding in, shooting Hades, and then leaving without either uttering a word.

 

It was great to see Hook swooping in to keep the guy at the bar from groping Milah under the guise of helping her. I just wish that Hook had been able to see her before Gold pushed her into the green goop. Heh, and I bet part of Gold wishes that could have happened too, just to see the awkwardness of Milah and Hook hugging hello while Emma stood off to the side feeling awkward as hell.

[Worsel]

 

I don't feel any more sympathy towards Milah than before this retcon.  Of course Rumple wouldn't have been able to stab that guy.  Why not do it herself?  Then she could have been there to provide input on the deal.  I suppose this retcon wasn't the worse they could have done, but meh...  Rumple had to face this horrible deal, yet he proceeds to demand other people's children as the Dark One.  Because...?

 

Milah wanted to go with them, because "I have my reasons..." which were what exactly?  And then she proceeds to stay with the boat to keep an eye on Rumple.  Was her main reason that she didn't trust Rumple and wanted to make sure Emma saved Hook then?  I did like that she showed real remorse for her abandonment of Baelfire and taking out her anger on him.  

I agree I'm not sure why Milah didn't try to steal the snake venom cure herself, it appeared like she was doing a lot of work herself because of Rumple's leg; pushing Rumple to do it when she knows he is cowardly didn't make much sense.  

I think Rumple was obsessed with saving Bae, which extended to children in general and his experience with Fendrake made him want to relive it over and over but with him as having the power over the deal instead.  Maybe he believed parents who made bad deals were not trustworthy parents or that they were unable to look after their kids properly and thought he was actually doing the kids a favor.  

I think Milah had two reasons to stay with Rumple.  One was she really didn't trust him not to abscond with the boat.  The other was the need to complete her unfinished business, I think she wanted to explain how she felt to Rumple and make him understand that she was remorseful for abandoning Bae.

[Mari]

Why was Emma's baby bed in her house?

Maybe it's a bit of Emma's unfinished business?  It could be a symbol of her issues with feeling abandoned and having an unloved childhood?

 

Milah's Underbrooke life tied in with her regret, as did Cora's, in a way.

 

3. So is Hades just lazy or does he have some master plan? He doesn't seem to want to do his own work. He wants Hook or Rumple to do things. He has other creatures torture Hook.

It could be he gets extra pleasure out of making them do it--forcing someone to do something against their will would also cause pain.

 

Or maybe he just likes watching?

 

 

 

It makes sense they skipped Robin in the Regina and Snow look for Daniel scene.  Daniel really is a Snow/Regina thing, and is how their whole relationship started.

 

Plus, if you have Robin there, you have obvious questions about why isn't Robin looking for Marian, which would lead back to "Robin--you've slept with women who killed me in both timelines?  Really?"  questions.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Mari

[KAOS Agent]

 

Milah wanted to go with them, because "I have my reasons..." which were what exactly?

 

Milah said that she was stuck in the Underworld because she had been selfish in leaving Bae. Once she was told he'd already moved on, she knew she wouldn't have a chance to put it right unless she moved on too. She thought by going along with them and doing something generous and helping Emma save Killian, she might be able to move on herself and be able to tell Bae in person how sorry she was for leaving him.

 

 

Rumple had to face this horrible deal, yet he proceeds to demand other people's children as the Dark One.  Because...?

 

I think Rumpel is just all about power and he's so in love with the rush it gives him that he screws other people just for fun. Do you ever wonder what exactly Rumpel does with these kids he's taking? We know he handed James off to King George, but what was his plan for Cinderella's baby? 

[BoPeeps]

Some entertaining moments as usual, a handful of good lines and ( it's about time) character revealing but still a massive mess of holes and nonsense plot. Honestly, I am resigned to watching it recorded after the fact because I am not invested anymore in what they are offering above and beyond the shallow but still potent visual kicks of seeing Colin act far above the level of stuck -in- a- rut writing.

And hopefully they will allow him to wash off the highly gratuitous gore.

It used to be a lot more fun.

The negatives are annoying and pervasive and I am tired of spouting them...you all have covered most of them...so just the positives:

Milah/Emma lines were amusing. They handled it well.

Rumple is a total prick but has great delivery timing. He is also effortlessly talented no matter what they throw at him.

Killian casually decking the threatening abuser and the charming chemistry between he and Milah.

Emma and Killian's very short but seriously sweet lover's bantering.

Milah's attitude towards Rumple's crap.

Edited March 21, 2016 by BoPeeps

[Lii]

This episode was entertaining. Rumple is a piece of shit. And I have NO IDEA what Hades is even trying to do. To be fair, though, if I had blue CGI flame hair I'd probably be a bit of a douchelord too.

[Curio]

I don't always get to watch on HD, but today I did, and the words on the arch "Abandon All Hope Ye Who Come Here" looked like they were just typed on top in post-production.  They didn't even try to make it look etched on.  

 

The CGI was especially terrible in this episode. I wish this show had just a quarter of the special effects budget Game of Thrones has, it would make a lot of their scenes feel more real and emotional. It's hard to connect to Emma saving Hook when all that pops into my head is, "I wonder how they felt having to film such an emotional scene completely surrounded by green walls and floors."

[DeLurker]

I'm totally ok with Rumple continuing to be a douche - I love him.

 

Milah getting some more texture was interesting, but she still wanted her husband to kill someone.  I suspect Milah and Rumple had not been having sexy times since Bae was conceived so giving up the 2nd child did not seem like a big loss. I also did not see where there was anything compelling between her and Hook in the pub.  YMMV...

 

Graham's headstone would have been cracked or whatever to indicate he went on to a worse place.  Well, Jamie Dornan's at least since he's in Fifty Shades of Hell.

 

I'm liking Hades and his suit - it is like Ally McBeal in Hell.  Whenever they do the horrid CGI blue flame, I think of the Heat Miser's song.

Edited March 21, 2016 by DeLurker

[Arnella]

Not that continuity matters to the writers AT ALL but I was struck by a timing issue.  Rumple is supposed to have lived for "centuries" before the dark curse so he was human at least 235 years ago when married to Milah and he first met the medicine man.  The dark curse was enacted 35 years ago and Regina was around 30 at the time meaning that Rumple met Cora about 35 years before that. 

So that means that Dark One Rumple went to kill the medicine man at least 150 years after first meeting him and he didn't look a day older so was this guy supposed to be immortal?

Edited March 21, 2016 by Arnella

[KateJones]

Was Jane purposely trying to make a connection between Rumple deciding Milah's future fate for her by choosing to give up the child without asking her about it first, and Emma deciding Hook's future fate for him by choosing to split her heart and share it with him without asking him about it first? Or am I just reaching here?

This is what I think. Thus the less than pleased look on his face. Emma doesn't know how to be in a relationship because she's been on her own her entire life. I love CS but it's not a perfect relationship. It's very real. And he needs some power again.

[daxx]

This is what I think. Thus the less than pleased look on his face. Emma doesn't know how to be in a relationship because she's been on her own her entire life. I love CS but it's not a perfect relationship. It's very real. And he needs some power again.

Pretty sure this will be addressed next episode. She'll have to let him choose to stay or go instead of making his choices for him.

[Mari]

I think Rumpel is just all about power and he's so in love with the rush it gives him that he screws other people just for fun. Do you ever wonder what exactly Rumpel does with these kids he's taking? We know he handed James off to King George, but what was his plan for Cinderella's baby?

Since the Guest Wizard wanted a baby, too, there might be some sort of power you can get from babies, provided your conscience is sufficiently squashed. I also wondered if Rumpke was hoping to have a baby or two stashed, just in case that deal became an issue.

Since the Guest Wizard is of indeterminate age, maybe you can transfer the baby's potential years onto you somehow and extend your life?

I would also like to add that it was particularly rewarding to see "Magic comes with a price." finally taking a nice, healthy chunk out of Rumple.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Mari

[Panopticon]

I've never particularly cared for Milah. I want to but I just don't.  Meanwhile, my sympathy for Rumple lingered on for a couple of seasons more than is strictly reasonable. Even in this episode's flashbacks, I wasn't too bothered by the deal Rumple made. He didn't have any time to think it over or consult with Milah while Bae was at death's door-- and Milah was the one who had delegated dealing with the medicine man to Rumple. The deal was the surest way to save his child. There was no guarantee that an attempted murder would have been successful. And another Rumple/Milah child was an extreme long shot, as repulsed as she was by him.

 

That said, I couldn't get over how dark the second murder of Milah was. There's just nothing understandable or redeemable about it. It was so bad that for a second I thought it was a fantasy sequence and he hadn't actually gone through with it. It doesn't matter how well Robert Carlyle delivers a witty one-liner or makes a woobie face. Rumple just isn't useful as a character at this point.

[Curio]

I think I'm going to start a weekly post of Offscreenville Moments You Missed In Tonight's Episode:

• Emma giving Killian his hook back
• Emma telling Killian about how Rumple tricked him to become the Dark One again and his reaction
• Emma and Hook somehow managing to cross that balance beam, even with Hook's crazy injured condition
• Whatever the hell David and Robin were doing
• Henry's potential search for the murdered pen (I can't believe I have to write that sentence)

[CheshireCat]

KingOfHearts, on 21 Mar 2016 - 02:24 AM, said:KingOfHearts, on 21 Mar 2016 - 02:24 AM, said:

Oh I forgot to mention. I love how "Underbrooke" is canon now.

 

It bothered me they were in English. Wouldn't Greek be more appropriate?

 

Maybe the words can be seen in the language the people who enter speak so they understand? It's the Underworld after all.

 

 

KAOS Agent, on 21 Mar 2016 - 12:22 AM, said:KAOS Agent, on 21 Mar 2016 - 12:22 AM, said:

 

 

- Still really confused about the Regina magic plot that went nowhere. It wasn't an issue and then it was resolved.

 

Matt on TV Line thinks it was supposed to be tied to Regina finding Daniel and getting closure on that. Considering the timeline of the episode it sounds plausible.

 

Serena, on 21 Mar 2016 - 05:04 AM, said:Serena, on 21 Mar 2016 - 05:04 AM, said:

Italian would be appropriate, since it's from the Divine Comedy. It's from a Christian underworld story, not a Greek myth. But I don't expect the writers to do the basic research to know that.

 

You mean the line is from an Italian comedy? Because Hades is definitely the Greek God of the Underworld. (And the backdrop is Greek style, too)

Edited March 21, 2016 by CheshireCat

[scenicbyway]

Did it seem like Hook was less than thrilled about the heart splitting, or was he just overwhelmed from all he's been through?

I think he was overwhelmed.  But there's also the point of Emma repeatedly not giving Hook a choice when it comes to death.  He asked to be let go in Camelot and she couldn't, he asked to let him sacrifice himself in Storybrooke and she did but then when she found out what Gold did, she couldn't let him go.  Now in Underbrooke, he's told her again that she should've let him go (which is odd because last episode he seemed happy to know she was there and looking for him) and I'm guessing his worried look about splitting her heart sets up the drama for the next episode with Liam.

[scenicbyway]

 

I think I'm going to start a weekly post of Offscreenville Moments You Missed In Tonight's Episode:

• Emma giving Killian his hook back
• Emma telling Killian about how Rumple tricked him to become the Dark One again and his reaction
• Emma and Hook somehow managing to cross that balance beam, even with Hook's crazy injured condition
• Whatever the hell David and Robin were doing
• Henry's potential search for the murdered pen (I can't believe I have to write that sentence)

 

How did Emma even get the Hook?  I know Hades showed it to her but he must've given it to her?  Why?

To be fair, it did take them for ever to get back the boat, but why didn't she just poof them back to her house?  I suppose she wanted to check on Milah?  It did make sense that Emma explained why she was there, she had let him go but then found out that Rumple betrayed his sacrifice so all bets were off.

 

My headcanon is that David, Robin and Henry were having a nice lunch at the Italian place in Underbrooke followed by darts at Grannys.

 

So will Henry just steal the pen their writing orders with at Grannys or will he find the pen's headstone in the cemetery?

[Curio]

Matt on TV Line thinks it was supposed to be tied to Regina finding Daniel and getting closure on that. Considering the timeline of the episode it sounds plausible.

It's bad when even Mitovich admits a Regina scene was pointless.

I’m sure the “message” was that it was impaired by her “unfinished business” of sorts with Daniel, but yeah, it was kind of a weird 1/2-scene plot point.

I'm now waiting for the emotional, Emmy-nominated scene where Rumple happens upon a snail crossing Main Street, and he kneels down while a single tear falls from his eye. The snail is injured. Rumple uses magic to heal the snail and the tiny thing slowly slugs on to a better life. At last, the audience will be happy to know the snail moved on to the light, because that's what we've all been hoping for in this Underworld plot.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

 

I think I'm going to start a weekly post of Offscreenville Moments You Missed In Tonight's Episode:

• Emma giving Killian his hook back
• Emma telling Killian about how Rumple tricked him to become the Dark One again and his reaction
• Emma and Hook somehow managing to cross that balance beam, even with Hook's crazy injured condition
• Whatever the hell David and Robin were doing
• Henry's potential search for the murdered pen (I can't believe I have to write that sentence)

 

 

Don't forget Snow going off screen to practise a dance routine or to do a chemical analysis of the orange haze in the air or whatever while Regina had a private moment at Daniel's grave.  

 

I know Emma and Rumple was going off to rescue Hook.  But shouldn't everyone else be looking into how they might escape from the Underworld?  Instead of even more visits to the cemetery, and cleaning up the apartment.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

This show's wonky morality makes it really hard to tell what message we're supposed to be getting (and the writing isn't deep or ambiguous enough for it to be a case of "you draw your own conclusions"). Initially, it seemed like they were going for "poor woobie Rumple and his evil shrew wife" when Milah made him go kill the healer, and it looked like Rumple was being shown as a good man for not being able to go through with it.

 

But on the other hand, the healer was apparently no saint. He was willing to let a child die out of greed/power. I don't think he was obligated to just give away something that required skill/knowledge and possibly rare ingredients to make -- even today, antidote for snake venom is incredibly expensive. But even in today's screwy American medical system, if someone comes into the ER with a snake bite, they get the antidote and their life is saved, and they worry about the money stuff later. It seems to me that a good person who's a true healer wouldn't have been able to look at the parents of a dying child and just send them away because they couldn't afford the high price. They would have tried to work something out and would have been primarily concerned with saving a life. That makes me wonder if the high price (they said it was what they'd earn in a lifetime) was designed to drive the next-born child deal, like he didn't really want the gold, but wanted that price to be so high that they'd be desperate enough to take another offer. And the lack of kids at his place suggests that either he uses the babies for magic or brokers them to other people. Or else he uses the deal as leverage -- you can keep the kid, but I own you, and you have to do what I say or I can always take your kid. So, basically, I can't feel too awful about taking him out, especially since Rumple ended up killing him anyway. If he'd done it in the first place, there would have been no second baby deal and it's possible that Milah might have been turned on enough by him taking action that she'd have forgotten about that pretty pirate she met. I would suspect that some of her disgust toward him about the deal was the way he painted it as such an awesome triumph, like "woo hoo, I've solved all our problems." How effective is the birth control in that world? Because it seems kind of risky without good birth control to count on not having another child. Though I suppose that "Hey, honey, I sold our second-born child" is perhaps the most effective birth control of all.

 

This backstory counts to me as "good retcon" in that it not only doesn't contradict what we know but explains or gives additional meaning to what we know. Not only does it give more nuance to the relationship between Milah and Killian, so she didn't just run away on a whim with a guy she met in the local Ye Olde Tavern franchise, but she met him and turned him down and only considered leaving her husband when he made that kind of deal behind her back, but I think it also adds another layer of meaning to Rumple later being willing to kill to save his son when he killed to become the Dark One. He was doing them what he was unable to do earlier.

 

I liked that Milah killed the snake so quickly and efficiently and had the presence of mind to take it with them to the healer to identify it. But Bae trying to pet the snake just shows he was always a Darwin Award candidate, and unfortunately he did reproduce and Henry seems to have got that particular gene.

[Curio]

This backstory counts to me as "good retcon" in that it not only doesn't contradict what we know but explains or gives additional meaning to what we know.

 

If this show is going to stubbornly stick to the flashback formula, this is how you do it. It not only showed us a new period of time we've never explored before (yes, that is a jab at Snow vs. Regina), but it was a twist on an event the audience was aware happened in the past, but didn't know the exact details. The audience already knew Milah and Hook must have hit it off in the tavern at some point if she was willing to ditch everything and join his crew, but we never got to see that on screen. Even though the Snow flashback last week was cute and explored a new time period, it also seemed like a stretch to include because no one could have ever guessed before the episode aired that Snow and Hercules might have been friends in the past. Compare that to this flashback, where it's possible the audience already wrote some mental fan fics about this kind of scenario happening. So including Killian and Milah's first meeting, and showing Milah's tendency to already act like a darker pirate around Rumple (doing physical labor because her husband was too lazy, quickly killing the snake, buying a dagger and forcing Rumple to commit murder, etc.) before she even met Killian made this a good retcon.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Curio

[DeLurker]

 

Did it seem like Hook was less than thrilled about the heart splitting, or was he just overwhelmed from all he's been through?

In the words of Fezzik:  He's been mostly dead all day.

[Daisy]

In the words of Fezzik:  He's been mostly dead all day.

 

 

(laugh). I did like someone's point that Maybe Hook is just irritated that Emma is once again not allowing him to decide for himself. He was okay with his end being his end (I am really wondering if he's in Underbrooke because of Emma/Rumple's interfering his sacrifice became unfinished business. he's suffering because of them). 

[legaleagle53]

CheshireCat, on 21 Mar 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

You mean the line is from an Italian comedy? Because Hades is definitely the Greek God of the Underworld. (And the backdrop is Greek style, too)

 

Dante borrowed heavily from Greco-Roman mythology when he wrote his Commedia (a three-part epic poem, not a "comedy" in the sense that we think of them) in the early 14th Century, especially the first part of the trilogy (Inferno).

[RadioGirl27]

This was a good episode, except for the pointless horse scene with Regina, Milah's second death and Rumbelle's baby. The CS reunion was sweet but short, and so was the moment when everyone was reunited. Oh, and Killian is definitely not happy with the heart splitting and Emma taking away his agency again. I guess that's going to be the reason for the conflict we saw in the promo for next week. Hades is a great villain, but they should stop with the blue hair. It's awful. And I love Cruella and her furs.

[FormerMod-a1]

Was this really a 2nd death for Milah, though?  She's dead already.  It's horrible, being thrown into the River of Lost Souls, but is it really "death" if she's dead already?   Not calling it death doesn't make it any less horrifying, to me.  I do hope they can free her soul so she can get closure and move on. 

[twoods]

Poor Milah. I always hated that she left Bae behind, but the backstory was good. It was nice to see charming Killian back- he's been such a mess lately. I can see why she left Rumple, but he's way past the point of being redeemable. I was hoping for her to get her closure so she can move on and be with her son. Maybe Belle deserves him after all the blinders she has had on for him.

I was a weepy mess by that very short CS scene, but they are finally back on my screen! It's been way too long.

I agree that Hades works better without that ridiculous blue hair. I can see doing it initially so we know who he is, but stop already! At least he's a great villain.

Maybe Cruella is lying and a tipped headstone means that Daniel can never be saved? It would give Regina something to do, and I would get Daniel back on my screen (miss him from Nikita). Poor Robin had nothing to do, as does Charming.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Hell Is For Children On Once Upon A Time
More long-dead characters return, more CGI scenery gets chewed, and -- surprise! -- the Underworld gets a little dark.

[Serena]

You mean the line is from an Italian comedy? Because Hades is definitely the Greek God of the Underworld. (And the backdrop is Greek style, too)

It's not from a comedy, it's from the book The Divine Comedy (which is not a comedy; it's an epic poem from the 14th century). The original line, as written by Dante Alighieri, is "Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch' intrate.". It's also known as "Dante's Inferno" by Hollywood scriptwriters who can't do basic research. It features some Greek characters (like Cerberus!) but it's a Christian story (the unbaptized and non-Christians are in Limbo - but a Pope is in Hell!).

[Mathius]

Was this really a 2nd death for Milah, though? She's dead already. It's horrible, being thrown into the River of Lost Souls, but is it really "death" if she's dead already? Not calling it death doesn't make it any less horrifying, to me. I do hope they can free her soul so she can get closure and move on.

It's kind of death in that her personality is erased and she becomes a mindless soul floating aimlessly for all eternity, never moving on to a better or worse place. Edited March 21, 2016 by Mathius

[HoodlumSheep]

Realized I never gave my thoughts on the episode:

--liked how the flashbacks filled in holes of the story.

--Milah didn't deserve that and Rumple needs to go die in a fire. Poor Belle.

-the regina plot was a waste of time

-Poor Bambi's mother

-still liking Hades; i still giggle at his blue hair

-next week's episode looks like it's going to hurt

-can't believe Emma and Killian Believed Rumple's story. Killian might be too emotionally and physically exhausted at the moment to be thinking straight though.

-emma forgot that her heart can't be taken?

I've been liking 5b so far. I just wish they were utilizing Charming and Robin better.

Edited March 21, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Camera One]

When Rumple pleaded with Milah that having Bae would be enough (not needing to have a second child), it reminded me of Cora realizing that Regina would have been enough, and now Milah realizing the same thing in the underworld.

[Camera One]

This show's wonky morality makes it really hard to tell what message we're supposed to be getting (and the writing isn't deep or ambiguous enough for it to be a case of "you draw your own conclusions"). Initially, it seemed like they were going for "poor woobie Rumple and his evil shrew wife" when Milah made him go kill the healer, and it looked like Rumple was being shown as a good man for not being able to go through with it.

 

If they were going for the "poor woobie Rumple" interpretation, they pretty much failed considering most of the sentiments expressed on this topic so far seems to be Team Milah.  Part of that of course is due to Rumple throwing Milah into the deadpool, but a lot of people sided with her in the flashbacks as well.  

[KingOfHearts]

They retconned Rumple's need for Cora's baby. First it was because it was prophecized her daughter cast the curse. Now he just needed it satisfy the healer. How does that work exactly?

[maryle]

I saw and loved it!

Loved Cruella and her sass!

Loved R.C acting in the fb and the present he soldats it!

I loved Hades and Hook scene but I hope Hades has a hidden agenda. The the hope talk is good but Hook was already tortured before the visitor screw up is perfect Word.

I loved Milan and Emma the way they handle a delicate situation for both of them. It show that woman çan be mature and not always fight against each others. Good exemple show!

But I cannot said that Milan really grew on me I saw het like before a selfish person in a bad relationship.

I like that she seems mature a lot

Rumple for me has entered in big bad of the serie territory and hope the writer dosent try to white wash everything because Rumbelle.

The pointless award moment goes to Regina with the horse. Just do Not understand any of it!

[Mathius]

They retconned Rumple's need for Cora's baby. First it was because it was prophecized her daughter cast the curse. Now he just needed it satisfy the healer. How does that work exactly?

No, that wasn't what was remotely said or shown. He needed Cora's baby for the curse, then Cora got him to alter the deal so that it would be his and Cora's baby. Doing so meant that he needed the healer out of the picture or he'd try to take his curse-casting baby away, so he went and killed him. Rumple never had any intention of "satisfying" the healer at all.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

No, that wasn't what was remotely said or shown.

I looked at the transcript. There was so much whispering this episode by Rumple and Hades it was hard to tell who was saying what. So those two instances do intersect, so it was shown that those two events were connected. Hades explicitly states it. He did need Cora's baby to satisfy the healer, but he chose to kill him so that wouldn't be the case. So while it was close to being a retcon, the solution keeps it from the danger zone.

 

Rumple said Neal forgave him. I guess he did on his deathbed? But I suppose that's just what Rumple wants to believe. That dynamic was so unexplored (and has been retconned so much), I tend to side-eye whenever Neal is referenced.

Edited March 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[oliverwendell]

 

Now in Underbrooke, he's told her again that she should've let him go (which is odd because last episode he seemed happy to know she was there and looking for him)

 

I thought that at first, too, but on rewatch I see that it was Hades' taunts that changed his mind. Hook was happy to be rescued until Hades started threatening to keep the people who'd come to save him trapped in the Underworld, and then to hurt them as well. Now he thinks it was a mistake for them to come and risk their lives for him. It was how Hades fucked with him, taking away his hope and joy at possibly being saved. 

Edited March 21, 2016 by oliverwendell

[Serena]

I looked at the transcript. There was so much whispering this episode by Rumple and Hades it was hard to tell who was saying what. So those two instances do intersect, so it was shown that those two events were connected. Hades explicitly states it. He did need Cora's baby to satisfy the healer, but he chose to kill him so that wouldn't be the case. So while it was close to being a retcon, the solution keeps it from the danger zone.

But he didn't need Cora's baby to satisfy the healer. He wanted a baby with Cora, because Cora's child would cast the curse. But he knew if they had the baby, the healer would have a claim to it, so he decided to kill him first.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But he didn't need Cora's baby to satisfy the healer. He wanted a baby with Cora, because Cora's child would cast the curse. But he knew if they had the baby, the healer would have a claim to it, so he decided to kill him first.

Well he would need the baby if he didn't plan on killing the healer. But he did, so he didn't.

[Rumsy4]

Ummm what? lol

[Chaos Theory]

I think shades picked the people he picked because it keeps everyone in Underbrook. Even if you discount the split heart thing and say David can live with his half a heart he is never going to leave without Snow. Emma and Hook are trapped and won't leave without the other. And Robin won't leave without Regina. So Hades picked the exact right people.

[Helena Dax]

Ugh, Rumple's the worst, he went too far this time. And I'm glad Hades is going to make him suffer, although it would be better if I didn't have to worry about that baby now. I mean, it's not his fault that his father's disgusting and his mother is dumber than a ton of bricks. And I don't think Hades would be nice to him, so...

 

Poor Milah. If the writers forget about her, I'll be pissed. 

 

Why would Hades torture Hook so much? And I hope there's a reason for his evil behaviour, because right now, the only reason seems to be that the writers equate Hades=Satan, which is wrong. If he's jealous, like Disney's Hades, well, I'd like to know. 

 

Brilliant things: Rumple introducing Emma to Milah, the flashbacks, Cruella and Bambi's mother, Hook and Emma together again, Rumple becoming Hades's bitch...

[Tiger]

I never thought I'd say this but I really hope Henry uses his author's pen to free Milah. Milah does not deserve Rumple. They can save Regina's sycophantic father, who abetted Regina's murderous acts, but not Milch - that is ridiculous.

I liked the episode but didn't love it. I've always felt that Rumple was a manipulative cowardly jerk even as peasant Rumple. He uses his weakness to control Milah. I've always said if she didn't leave him she either would have drank herself to death or killed him. I have no sympathy for Rumple. I hope Hades takes his kid. He should have to experience what he has done to others. Ii like that. Belle shouldn't complain since she is fine with rumple.

I feel cheated of a CS reunion and really wish Hook could have seen Milah. I like that he still cares for her and that she and Emma worked well together.

At the end when Rumple was making his woobie face, I said outloud "suck it, bitch!".

RC is a great actor, but the character is so tired at this point. Making Rumple 'The Dark One' again and pretty much negating the admittedly awful 5A was not a wise move. Rumple should have either become truly good or died.

[ParadoxLost]

I think shades picked the people he picked because it keeps everyone in Underbrook. Even if you discount the split heart thing and say David can live with his half a heart he is never going to leave without Snow. Emma and Hook are trapped and won't leave without the other. And Robin won't leave without Regina. So Hades picked the exact right people.

 

This is what is making me frustrated with Hades.  Why does he need to pick three names.  Its his realm.  Its his rules.  Its the natural order of things to have people move on.  So, he wants to keep everyone.  I get that.  He wants to punish Hook by making him pick three people in trade.  I get that even though I don't get why he's torturing Hook in particular.  So why did Hades constrain himself by picking three people? He can say everyone has to stay since Hook won't choose.  He's not limited to picking three names.  He would have to be worried about Zeus or something if he's trying to keep up the pretense of following rules. around an even trade.

 

Since Hades seems to have control over Cora's and Pan's magic, I was thinking that Regina losing her magic might have something to do with Hades.  That Regina got it back and Hades needs leverage over Rumple makes me think the living in Underbrooke have a measure of power that the dead don't.

 

I also thought Emma finding and rescuing Hook was way too easy.  Either Hades let it happen because it serves his purposes and he was working the deal with Rumple or something else is going on there.

 

Generally I'm finding that Hades powers and motivations seem to be as hard to follow as the show's application of magic.

Edited March 22, 2016 by ParadoxLost

[Dianthus]

As awful as Rumple was in this ep., at least there was that bit of schadenfreude at the end. I was, like, "Who's made of fail now, Asshole?!?"

There's an old song by England Dan & John Ford Coley called It's Sad to Belong (Yes,It's sad to belong to someone else when the right one comes along). That's what came to my mind after Milah met Killian. I'm still not sure how/why she jumped over seduction/thievery to murder, but her son was dying. I guess killing the healer seemed the most direct way to get what the cure to save Bae.

Add my name to the list of those who hope they can save those poor, lost souls.

[Shanna Marie]

If they were going for the "poor woobie Rumple" interpretation, they pretty much failed considering most of the sentiments expressed on this topic so far seems to be Team Milah.  Part of that of course is due to Rumple throwing Milah into the deadpool, but a lot of people sided with her in the flashbacks as well.

That's why I wish I knew what they wanted us to think. There was a lot of "poor woobie Rumple," but then Rumple threw Milah into the River of Souls and screwed over the others, and we also saw him go back and kill the healer. I can handle ambiguity, but this show has a bad tendency to show us something and then give the totally opposite impression in how we should view it, or else to show something that looks ambiguous and later make it out to be as though it was clear-cut. I could imagine this show justifying what he did to Milah out of concern for his unborn child, as surely an unborn, living child takes priority over a woman who's already dead. He's just being a good father, like he was when he made the deal in the first place.

 

But given everything else he's done, it's hard to drum up that much sympathy.

[Camera One]

That's why I wish I knew what they wanted us to think. 

 

I'm sure Eddy will enlighten us in some interview in 6 months.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I could imagine this show justifying what he did to Milah out of concern for his unborn child, as surely an unborn, living child takes priority over a woman who's already dead. He's just being a good father, like he was when he made the deal in the first place.

 

Except he didn't know the baby was in any danger at that point. He just wanted to go home to the little woman right now. It wouldn't have been difficult to not kill Milah. He could have just kept her frozen, destroyed the boat and then given her a magical memory wipe. He consigned her to being a mindless tortured husk for all eternity because he's an asshole. There is no redemption there. He's not human. A baby won't fix that.