S05.E14: Devil's Due

[InsertWordHere]

Or, more likely, the citizens of Underbrooke are always alerted of new arrivals, and the Pen was one.

Milah wasn't aware that Killian was in the Underworld, but that could be because he was being kept in solitary confinement and not general population. Milah also didn't seem to know that Neal had moved on. Did he ever go to Underbrooke in the first place and she missed him or did he just not pass go not collect $200 and go straight to the nice place?

[YaddaYadda]

I think Neal went straight to his happy place.

 

From what I understand, the UW doesn't really let you resolve your unfinished business.

 

Milah should have moved on a long time ago because she figured out what her unfinished business was, and even took up that crossing guard job to try and redeem herself, but she was still there. Maybe knowing that Neal had moved on was all that was missing, but that's a pretty shitty deal since she would've never found out.

[Camera One]

I kind of expected her to rise up to the light after she was thrown into the river, since essentially her unfinished business was finished... she acknowledged her mistakes, sacrificed herself for the greater good, and learned that her son forgave a monster, so clearly would have nothing against her.

[kitticup]

Camera One I was hoping that would happen.

I did a partial rewatch, and in the scene were hook confronts Rumple. It seemed that rumple showed a bit of remorse. Usually, he would be snarky and gloat, but instead he was subdued and even acknowledged Hook's position. Rumple seemed affected by the great harm he did to Milah and the one person who loved her, Hook.

Did anyone else read the scene that way?

Edited March 27, 2016 by kitticup

[Camera One]

I'll have to rewatch to see.  I was kind of distracted by the casual-ness of it... all I was thinking was how the Writers were obviously trying to sweep everything under the rug in two lines.

[AudienceofOne]

Rumple always feels guilt for his actions right after those actions fail to get him what he wants. If he'd succeeded, he wouldn't give a fuck. He only cares when he can't justify the behaviour as being necessary to achieve his objectives.

 

Because he is the WORST.

[KingOfHearts]

Rumple is an insult to the audience's intelligence. The writers try their hardest to make it look like he's got redemptive qualities (and fail at it), then plot twist! It's still a conniving twit for the 50th time in a row!

[janett snakehole]

Hello, everybody! Long time listener, first time caller. I think the episode was good overall. I thought it was engaging even if it was a tad boring for how big the stakes are. But I am happy to watch an episode and not be angry throughout like I was during most of 4B. Except about Milah's fate, that did make me pretty angry. I hope they address it later in the season and help her move on, but I'm not holding my breath. 

 

positives 

- I loved Emma and Milah's interactions. I think they were written/acted really well. 

- The episode did a great job in fleshing out Milah as a character and as someone who didn't really like her before the episode, I would consider myself a fan now (acknowledging that she is a grey character who has made mistakes).

- Finally Emma and Killian are reunited. 

- Someone got the best of Rumple, gotta love that. 

- While it was a bit boring, I thought it was the most entertaining episode of the three so far. 

- Loved seeing Milah and Killian's first meeting. Wasn't something I knew I wanted until we got it. 

 

negatives 

- Regina was weirdly utilized. Her storyline stuck out as not fitting with the rest of the episode. 

- I think her finding Daniel's grave needed to happen as his death was her motivator for so many year, but I'm not sure if should have happened this episode. 

- The horse. What even? I guess it was supposed to be her horse that she tried to use to enact the curse, but that wasn't made clear in episode. As was her having an issue with her magic which only popped up to be resolved a few acts later.

- While I am glad that Emma and Killian are reunited, I found the scene to be anti-climactic. She seemed weirdly sunny while he looked like all he wanted to do was sleep for 100 years. I think that scene deserved a bit more time or better writing? It just didn't resonate with me which is a bummer because they're my favorite characters. 

- Again, super angry about Milah's fate. If I thought she would be saved later it wouldn't bother me as much, but I think this will be the last we see of her. 

- They should all know Emma's heart can't be taken. Why was that a surprise? 

 

Sorry if these are a retread, just wanted to share my thoughts. :D

[KingOfHearts]

I saw some viewers wondering about whether a time jump would be necessary for the Belle pregnancy. Zelena gave birth after only 13 weeks at the most, so it wouldn't have be a very big jump. (5 weeks + 1 week + 6 weeks + 1 week)

Edited March 27, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Maybe it depends on what Hades wants to do with the baby?

 

Emilie gave birth a week ago (2 weeks?), so it's not like them writing it in was a necessary thing. Guess it's gonna depend on the storyline they're looking at, which given these writers is probably going to amount to a big fat nothing.

 

I think a time jump would do wonders for the show, especially Jared Gilmore. Since this show loooooooves moving from one crisis to the other without a break, I doubt they'll do a time jump anything. 

Edited March 27, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[RachelKM]

Dear Show,

 

We never cared about Daniel.

 

Sincerely,

The Audience

[Dianthus]

I don't remember seeing it commented on (and maybe it's just my faulty memory), or maybe it just got subsumed into general outrage at Rumple's dickish-ness, but not only was he trying to stir up trouble between Emma and Milah, he was slut-shaming Emma to do it. Never mind that it was Emma who suffered on account of his douchebag son! 

[Camera One]

I didn't catch this gem until my rewatch of this episode.  In the flashback, Milah said killing the Healer will give Rumple a chance to be BRAVE.  Get it?  The writing on this show is amazing on so many levels.

[KingOfHearts]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I didn't catch this gem until my rewatch of this episode.  In the flashback, Milah said killing the Healer will give Rumple a chance to be BRAVE.  Get it?  The writing on this show is amazing on so many levels.

Well, let's be real. Merida probably got "brave" by killing someone too. 

[KingOfHearts]

This episode touches on a lot of nice elements when it comes to Milah's character. If more time was taken to explore them, it would have been wonderful. The main issue is that there's no satisfying conclusion to her story and it's cut short. Rumple hijacks her centric and it ultimately becomes about his contract with the Healer. Milah is secretly an awesome character, but she (like in her married life) is constantly pushed aside to make way for Rumple's daddy issues.

I understood the Regina subplot better on rewatch. It did feel like it was missing a scene or two. Regina's magic is usually useless anyway, so her getting back it really meant nothing.

[Curio]

The Regina subplot was completely unnecessary. In hindsight, knowing that

Spoiler

the writers never allowed Hook and Milah to have a final goodbye and they never properly resolved Milah getting dumped in the river

, it would have been a lot more satisfying to give Regina's horse screen time to just one scene between Milah and Hook.

[orza]

12 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

This episode touches on a lot of nice elements when it comes to Milah's character. If more time was taken to explore them, it would have been wonderful. The main issue is that there's no satisfying conclusion to her story and it's cut short. Rumple hijacks her centric and it ultimately becomes about his contract with the Healer. Milah is secretly an awesome character, but she (like in her married life) is constantly pushed aside to make way for Rumple's daddy issues.

I understood the Regina subplot better on rewatch. It did feel like it was missing a scene or two. Regina's magic is usually useless anyway, so her getting back it really meant nothing.

This episode was not a Milah-centric story, it was a Rumple-centric episode. Milah is a minor supporting character whose narrative function is to advance Rumple's story and character development. She was Hook's off-screen girlfriend for a while but that was just to set up the big feud between Hook and Rumple. Not every minor recurring character needs to have their own story with backstory and meaningful connections to other characters.

The whole point of the episode was to show how the ill-advised deal with the healer was really the pivotal moment that set Rumple on the path to becoming the Dark One and losing his son and was now threatening to ruin the life he had now in the present.

I liked that the episode also explained why Rumple and Milah's marriage fell apart so quickly. Meeting a pirate in a tavern who was nice to her was not a believable reason for Milah to ditch her whole life and abandon her child. There had to be more to it than that and we finally saw what that was. The events of this episode took place immediately before the events of The Crocodile and it provides context for what we saw in that episode.

It's showed that despite the difficulties we had previously seen, Rumple and Milah's marriage was still pretty solid and she still loved him up until he point when he sold out their future. Milah gave Rumple a heartfelt kiss when she him sent off to kill the healer and when he came back Rumple made a reference to the fact that they had an active sex life and needed to be careful not to get pregnant again. Milah clearly wanted more children and was devastated Rumple had made a deal that made that impossible now.

[YaddaYadda]

43 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I understood the Regina subplot better on rewatch. It did feel like it was missing a scene or two. Regina's magic is usually useless anyway, so her getting back it really meant nothing.

They cut everything in regards to Regina's magic not working properly. In 5x13, they had Emma poof them to Snowing's loft, and I was wondering why that was, so they just cut that stuff, but they kept the horse scene, and it make absolutely no sense at all.

[KAOS Agent]

This episode on first watch was interesting. I liked the Rumpel/Milah flashbacks. It was something we hadn't seen eight million times before and offered more context to the relationship between Milah & Rumpel as well as her beginning with Killian. The Emma/Milah team up was really enjoyable. I liked how both barely tolerated Rumpel and were silently bonding over their utter disdain for him.

That said, knowing how this season plays out, the way characters with relatively minor bad choices (in the scheme of this show at least) are treated vs ones with truly horrific actions is extremely upsetting. Milah's fate is particularly maddening. Yes, Milah left her husband and child behind to run off with a pirate. There are reasons why I think this was not necessarily a bad choice for everyone involved, but it still involved her abandoning her child, so it's a flawed choice. However, Rumpel has tortured, murdered, destroyed the lives of countless people. Same with Regina and Cora. These don't even remotely equate with Milah's actions and yet she's consigned to be a mindless husk while some truly horrific villains will no doubt never suffer anything even  close to her eternal one. People will often take comfort that surely evil will suffer in death even if they don't do so in life. There's a reason why some sort of heaven and hell exist in many different faiths. That the show is now in the afterlife and continuing with its wonky morality of villains winning while average flawed humans suffer eternal torment is hard to deal with. 

Justice for Milah!

[Camera One]

At this late stage, villains (in this case, Rumple) are still committing horrific crimes that none of the characters ever find out about.  Forget fixing the Graham situation... they're creating new ones.

Spoiler

And to think Rumple still deserved a happy beginning with Belle after this, or that the audience would still want Belle saddled with him, is beyond disgusting.

One positive of this arc is the setting was unique enough to generate some cleverness and they also managed to bring some of the humor into the situation.  The scenes with Emma, Rumple and Milah were amusing.

Spoiler

Whereas Season 6 and even 7 were rather humorless.

[KingOfHearts]

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

Spoiler

even 7 were rather humorless.

Spoiler

I thought S7 was hilarious, actually. But for all the wrong reasons.

[Shanna Marie]

This is another one I kind of like. I would have liked to have seen more of Milah, and especially of the Milah and Emma team. It makes sense that they'd get along since I think they have a lot of personality similarities. Hook definitely has a type. He likes women who are smart, brave, and adventurous. It's also a pity that Milah didn't get to meet her grandson. One thing I loved that I noticed on this viewing: When Rumple first confronts Milah, her face and eyes are cold and hard, but the moment he mentions Killian, her whole expression softens. It's very subtle, but it's definitely there. Nice bit of acting.

But I hate Rumple here. He's such a sleaze and he keeps doing such terrible things. And yet we're not supposed to think Belle is delusional when she talks about how he's changed and is a better man.

18 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

That said, knowing how this season plays out, the way characters with relatively minor bad choices (in the scheme of this show at least) are treated vs ones with truly horrific actions is extremely upsetting.

This really has to be the worst afterlife ever. It's so unfair and arbitrary. We don't really have a lot of say in whether or not we have unfinished business since we generally have no say in when we die. By the standard they seem to be showing, the serial killer who kills all the people he needs to complete his "pattern" would have no unfinished business and go straight to "heaven" while the victim who didn't get around to telling someone he loved them because he got killed by a serial killer first would be trapped in the Underworld, and he wouldn't have a chance of moving on until or unless the person he loved also ended up in the Underworld so he could tell them.

I feel like there was a missing scene somewhere because where did they establish that Regina's magic wasn't working? And then suddenly Cruella's taunting her about her magic not working and there's a whole scene in which she gets her magic back by healing a horse (was that supposed to be the horse whose heart she crushed in her first attempt at casting the curse, or was it the horse she put under a sleeping curse?). That's two scenes that made no sense after they cut what led into them, and that's time they could have spent on Emma and Milah working together.

[Camera One]

49 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

was that supposed to be the horse whose heart she crushed in her first attempt at casting the curse, or was it the horse she put under a sleeping curse?). 

Both of those scenarios have such symbolic and emotional significance that it's hard to choose.  I'm guessing it's the horse whose heart she crushed because she clearly loved it and that would parallel how she got to say sorry to daddy.  I don't think we're supposed to care any less about Snow's prize pony.

[KAOS Agent]

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

But I hate Rumple here. He's such a sleaze and he keeps doing such terrible things. And yet we're not supposed to think Belle is delusional when she talks about how he's changed and is a better man.

Considering Belle conceived this baby the night she came back to town because Rumpel was such a "hero" and they totally deserve a second chance now when he had really negated Hook's sacrifice to end the Dark One forever and took on the evil entity of his own free will because power is the best, the only option besides delusion is that Belle gets off on fixing Rumpel and acting as his leash allows her to act out her hero fantasies. 

Rumpel is nothing but trash. I loved Rumpel in earlier seasons, but now he's just an ass who needs to die.  Rumpel slut shaming Emma in his introduction to Milah is such a dick move. I wish for once they would let someone take some swipes at Rumpel where we're not supposed to sympathize with him because people are being mean to him. Call him out for being an awful person beyond his Dark One-ness. I'd even take a what the hell were you thinking? from Emma to Milah.

[Camera One]

This was probably when I began hating Rumple actively and Rumbelle became a total farce.

[Shanna Marie]

It's also gross that Rumple and Hades know Belle is pregnant before she has the slightest inkling.

16 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I wish for once they would let someone take some swipes at Rumpel where we're not supposed to sympathize with him because people are being mean to him.

And I'm tired of the sad face to show he's "conflicted" about his evil.

[tennisgurl]

Rumple really is such a total asshole this episode, its one of those episodes that makes it really hard to root for him as the series goes on. He is just such a slimy piece of shit here, and not in the fun way he used to be, when he was more of a wild card with questionable loyalties, the guy is just a garbage person. And it really goes on to make Rumbelle even more of a sham, and just makes Bell look like an idiot for staying with him. 

Spoiler

And we never even get to see her get out of the river, or Rumple face any consequences for what he did to her! Its so fucked up, she never deserved that, and its yet another decent character treated horribly by the villains and destroyed on a whim and no one cares. 

I do like getting to know Milah more, and I wish we got more of her, as she is a really interesting character. She wasnt the nicest woman, and she clearly made a mistake leaving her son, but she was also very sad and lonely, and when we meet her she is clearly wracked with grief and regret over Bae. She actually is a complex character in ways that people are not really allowed to be at this point in the show...so of course she needs to be subjected to a fate worse than death. Rumple has done a lot of awful things (like killing Milah the first time) but this really stands out as one of his lowest moments. 

I do enjoy the Emma/Rumple/Milah stuff until that ("you slept with my son...and my former lover...") all goes down, and an acknowledgement of all the weird ass connections people here have with each other are both funny and make you remember how ridiculous this freaking show is. It is at least funny and has done decent dialogue. And we finally get Hook and Emma back together!

I didnt even really realize Regina not having magic was much of a thing, but I guess she got her groove back yet again. God knows, Regina needs to get closure with every single freaking person she had. Was that the horse she killed to enact the dark horse? She didnt recognize it, was it Snows horse she put in a sleeping curse (but it was Snows horse, so I guess he deserved it?) or some other random horse she killed. Much like humans, Regina cant be asked to remember every one that she kills!

This afterlife is so freaking confusing and unfair. So if you have any unfinished business, you have to just hang out here for...ever? I mean, even in traditional Purgatory stories, you are supposed to be able to have your sins cleansed or work to deal with your issues and mistakes before you can get to heaven, but what about here? It seems like no one really gets to do anything to move on unless some random living people show up, so what happens to these people? What about all those kids, whats their unfinished business? Why dont they deserve heaven, what have they done in their few years of life that doomed them to this?!?

[KingOfHearts]

18 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

This afterlife is so freaking confusing and unfair. So if you have any unfinished business, you have to just hang out here for...ever? I mean, even in traditional Purgatory stories, you are supposed to be able to have your sins cleansed or work to deal with your issues and mistakes before you can get to heaven, but what about here? It seems like no one really gets to do anything to move on unless some random living people show up, so what happens to these people? What about all those kids, whats their unfinished business? Why dont they deserve heaven, what have they done in their few years of life that doomed them to this?!?

My theory is that it was originally intended to be a Purgatorial rehab, where people could work through their issues for closure before going into heaven. Hades probably rigged the system so they couldn't because (and I think A&E said this at one point), he was obsessed with having subjects in his own domain. He was jealous of Zeus and wanted his own dominion over people. It's why he wanted to keep people from moving on and why...

Spoiler

he chopped down the ambrosia tree so no one could escape. 

Theoretically, someone like Cora could spend centuries attempting to pay for their crimes before going to heaven, but they're being forced to stay longer because no one is pointing them in the right direction. Hades' job was most likely to help people deal with their issues.

[Shanna Marie]

On 5/27/2019 at 7:32 PM, tennisgurl said:

What about all those kids, whats their unfinished business? Why dont they deserve heaven, what have they done in their few years of life that doomed them to this?!?

They have unfinished business because they didn't live their lives and by dying so young they left everything unfinished. Or they're stuck in the Underworld because their parents' unfinished business is not getting to be parents because their kids died so young, so they have to wait until their parents die and can come be their parents in the Underworld. Because this is a show about hope!

My head canon is that those weren't real children. They were essentially set pieces for the Underworld so that Milah could serve her penance. Though I wonder what Milah was doing before the Underworld became Underbrooke. She's been there at least a century or so, long before Storybrooke would have been a glimmer of an idea, so she couldn't have spent all that time as a crossing guard.

[tennisgurl]

Oh @Shanna Marie dont you remember? Our questions are pointless!

[KAOS Agent]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

My head canon is that those weren't real children. They were essentially set pieces for the Underworld so that Milah could serve her penance.

That's a nice thought, but there's that poor mute kid that sits in Granny's alone and silent all day every day presumably forever. They added that random person to make the Underworld sad and creepy, but there was absolutely zero thought given to what it meant that people like that existed in this world they had created. If all dead people were trapped there, I could get past the hopelessness of the situation that the denizens of Underbrooke were in, but Neal, who we know had unfinished business, skipped purgatory to move on while other innocent randoms are stuck in hell because of some weird and unresolveable reasons. It's arbitrary and stupid. 

[Camera One]

28 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

there's that poor mute kid that sits in Granny's alone and silent all day every day presumably forever. They added that random person to make the Underworld sad and creepy, but there was absolutely zero thought given to what it meant that people like that existed in this world they had created.

"The show is dark, but it's never bleak.” - Adam Horowitz