The Duggars: In the Media and TLC

[Missy Vixen]

If Josh is/had continued to molest anyone, I think there is a duty to let people know.

We have no idea if Josh has continued to molest, because he's never had any type of meaningful counseling from a licensed professional. Considering the fact that the New York Times published a recent article stating that there were 20 instances of molestation, not the "5-8" Jim Boob and his child bride admitted to, nobody outside of that household has any idea what the true number of incidents might be and when they happened.

 

Josh Duggar has a five-year-old daughter living in the home with him. His wife is about to give birth to another daughter. If his last name wasn't "Duggar", his kids would be under supervision by DHS at the least and perhaps removed from the home.

 

He's never had help and he continued to molest after the stated timeline, according to various media reports.

[MrsChappy]

I live by a simple phrase: if you don't want no shit, don't start no shit. Michelle, in particular, has not lived this and therefore her family is getting shit. 

[pennben]

 

The Daily Mail pays nicely, from what I understand.

 

I've heard that too.  However, for whatever it is worth (I guess to be fair and balanced:)), a quote from the article:

 

 

Barnfield, who was raised a Baptist, added: 'I have not profited one penny from this. I was just standing up for something I believe in.'

[Missy Vixen]

I am wondering at bravado vs. fact. 

 

 

I think In Touch's lawyers (as well as the National Enquirer's lawyers) insisted on multiple sources and that the story was air-tight before they went to publication. I don't think it was an accident that the editor interviewed by The Advocate mentioned there was a "team" working on this story and they had reporters going door-to-door in Tontitown/Springfield gathering facts.

 

Tabloids have been successfully sued before, but in this case, the story was huge and they wanted to leave no possible avenue for the Duggars to sue over the information reported. In Touch wanted to get it right the first time. They also wanted to make sure that those who would scream "persecution" wouldn't have a leg to stand on re: the facts reported.

 

I also don't think they're done with the Duggars. I think they continue to gather facts. And I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[truthtalk2014]

I agree. AFAIK anything said by the police chief and the mayor has been true, and InTouch hasn't lied about the facts either. The city touched all the legal bases when responding to FOIA requests. Nothing to see here, move along.

 

I was writing some thoughts about what the locals think of the Duggars, when Oldernowiser's post above popped up. Well said!

 

I get such a Jerkmaster vibe from JB that I figure he's not generally beloved by the locals. In my experience, people in a small community have fewer "secrets" than they may think they do. But most people are too busy with their own lives and have too much of a "live and let live" or MYOB attitude, to stir up a shitstorm about their neighbors' business. Until said neighbor does something extra-jerky, or offensive beyond the norm - and then, as noted, somebody from the media shows up and asks.

 

Somewhere around here there was an excellent post about JB's hubris, and I think that's what got things to the tipping point for the Duggs. IIRC, the InTouch reporter on this story, said that over the years they'd had some tips about the Duggars, but finally got enough - and enough specifics - that they decided to pursue the story. Let's see:

 

• Groom your son for politics by hauling him around the statehouse when he's a kid.
• Take big bucks to be reality TV stars on a series full of your talking heads about all your righteous family specialness.
• Haul your whole fam damily around making personal appearances and speaking about how to be a godly family, and throw in some family stumping for political candidates who are all about personal righteousness and religion. 
• Sit there as your son takes a highly visible outreach job with a DC lobby group where he'll be out making speeches bashing same-sex marriage.
• Have your wife rev up her Minnie Mouse vocals to record a local robocall raising the specter of CHILD MOLESTATION in public restrooms, in a campaign to repeal an equal rights ordinance. 
• To ONCE AGAIN remind the world that you are a manly studly man, and your spouse is hot hot hot for you, and you're both still righteously humping for Jesus all the time? Start a social media thing of people kissing at your property, and be SURE you delete pics of same sex kissers. (BTW, did they check the credentials of hetero couples kissing, or did they let unmarried - gasp! - couples KISS and post their liplocks too?)

 

And do all of this when you have the skeleton of child molestation - of FIVE little girls - rattling rather loudly in a closet in the TTH. And plenty of locals know.

 

What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

 

EDITED to add: I've rarely had so much fun beating a dead horse. Sigh. I'll control myself better in future, I promise.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading the beating of the dead horse.  

[truthtalk2014]

I'm not sure if this has been posted before- if so mods can delete it.

 

Interesting article that I think the Duggars should have read before they signed up for a reality show.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sandy-malone/25-realities-to-consider-_b_5180926.html

 

#6 is really interesting.  

 

"6) Don't sign up to make a reality show if you have a lot of freaky skeletons in the closet that TMZ can find. No, seriously. The networks do background checks (theoretically) but they're mostly checking criminal history and bad credit. But IF your show is successful and you've been living a lie, you WILL get busted and it won't be pretty. If it's embarrassing for the network, you can be sued for non-disclosure. If it's juicy, they'll play it up and you'll wish you'd never heard of reality television. By then, of course, it's wayyy too late."

Edited June 13, 2015 by truthtalk2014

[cmr2014]

 

Exactly. You cannot constantly dehumanize and bully and persecute a group of people and then affect outrage when they finally bite back. Gay and transgender people are dying - either at their own hands or others' - thanks to people like the Duggars. So someone snapped. It was about time. I wish the secret had been about something else, that innocent girls hadn't been affected, but the root of all that blame once again goes back to the Duggars, not their LGBT victims who finally became fed up.

 

I disagree with this. To me, this is a central concept of Christianity -- just because someone does you wrong doesn't mean you have to bite back. What's sad in this context is the fact that the Duggars hateful and bigoted opinions don't spark outrage in the "Christian" community. It's unfortunate that a religion that is founded on love, and specifically about love for the weak and the outcast, should so loudly rail against the rights of the LGBT community -- but that's a post for another thread.

 

The Duggars weren't (and shouldn't have been) outed because of their stance against LGBT rights. They have every right to express their opinion just as I have every right to express mine.

 

The Duggars nasty little secret is now public knowledge because they 1) chose to become public figures and make themselves of interest to the media and 2) because they did the wrong thing and didn't handle the situation properly when Josh was a minor, and there is now a police report regarding an adult.

 

And, I find it interesting that these people who assume that every minute of their lives is micro-managed by God, haven't even considered that it might have been God's will that their secret should be revealed. No, they only see only bad people with an "agenda" and evil liberal media.

[bound for glory]

Nobody deserves to have their moral hypocrisy kept under wraps. I also don't have a problem with outing viciously anti-LGBT legislators, even though I'm otherwise against the practice.

 

And as far as Josh being under 18 goes, well, that goes back to the Duggars then, doesn't it? Because if they had followed proper procedure and reported this when they should have, then all of those records would have been sealed and no one would have been the wiser. 

 

 

Exactly. You cannot constantly dehumanize and bully and persecute a group of people and then affect outrage when they finally bite back. Gay and transgender people are dying - either at their own hands or others' - thanks to people like the Duggars. So someone snapped. It was about time. I wish the secret had been about something else, that innocent girls hadn't been affected, but the root of all that blame once again goes back to the Duggars, not their LGBT victims who finally became fed up. 

if someone, gay, straight or otherwise kills themself, i would like to think it was more to do with deeper issues than just "because the duggers".

[Happyfatchick]

19kac has a page on TVtropes, for those that've never seen it:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Series/NineteenKidsAndCounting

I went there, and down low where it has snark words and sort of definitions, it mentions jessa doing a spot on imitation of Jill in love, season 8. I tried to find it but can't. Anybody have a clue? I sure don't want to watch the whole season just to find a clip...

[wilsie]

Happyfatchick, it starts around 4:25:

[Happyfatchick]

but thats their beliefs. its on them to live anyway they want. thats the american way. i fought to protect that right in afghnistan.

this is america. some people will think different than you and me. there is no need to attack someone elses belief system because we don't like it...

Thank you very much for your service, and I mean that to the middle of my soul. Armed forces in the U.S. a) do a service that most of are neither willing enough nor brave enough to do, leaving your families behind when necessary (or dragging them from post to post - military families should be held in high regard as well for THEIR sacrifice), and b) provide us not only with freedom to move about without hindrance, earn a living, and pursue happiness, but to speak truth without retribution. You are amazing and I applaud everything you've done for your country.

Thank you for your post. I am not a Christian myself but I can only imagine how heartbreaking it must be to see all of the beautiful things you believe completely bastardized this way. You're right, there are lots of people who super ready to lump all religious people together and dismiss them, and it's just as wrong. It's another level to this that I'm not experiencing so I haven't really thought about it until I read your post. Sounds to me like you're quite secure in your faith, unlike some other people we come to this forum to discuss. :) Thank you for sharing your perspective!

. Thank you, Aja! For this thoughtful insight. I AM Christian, and I can't begin to tell you the times I've recently cringed when I've heard (even close family members, referring to Duggargate) "...and THATS why I just don't even bother with religion anymore."

I'm almost embarrassed to identify as Christian at this point (thanks Duggs!!!). I am not a cookie cutter version of fundamentalism, and part of me resents the stereotype. I try to be gentle, kind and open minded, (and we've never had molestation issues - there is that...). However, I guess, as others have pointed out, America is generally looked upon as a "Christian" society, and I AM a Caucasian woman in America... I guess, honestly, if I feel the sting of some form of discrimination, it's probably my turn...

A side note: I KNOW my family members. We've met. Duggargate (and anything like it) is soooo NOT why they don't bother with religion. In my up-close opinion anyway...

Edited June 13, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[merylinkid]

I can see the FOIA request taking a little longer than usual because they had to check with the lawyers to see if a report of a minor molesting other minors could be released.    No attorney is going to rush that opinion.   I also can see them notifying the family -- not to protect Josh -- but hoping the family would actually try to prepare the girls for the release and the fall out there from.    Too bad it became all "poor Joshie being picked on by those evil liberals."

 

As for the defamation suit, the Duggars accused the Mayor of taking bribes.   Ummm, that was either malicious or a reckless disregard for the truth just because they were pissed at this coming out.   Rather than own that they covered it up and maybe didn't handle the situation well at the time, they blamed the city officials for it coming out.  They didn't just accuse, they accused the Mayor of corruption in official duties in releasing the report.  That is pretty serious.   Yes, it could hurt the Mayor.   What about running for office again?   What if the Mayor loses because people believe this person took bribes to out a controversial family?   I think this is a reasonable case to bring -- based on information at this time.

[ChocolateAddict]

if someone, gay, straight or otherwise kills themself, i would like to think it was more to do with deeper issues than just "because the duggers".

 

That isn't what people are saying.  People are pointing out that, particularly young, LGTBI individuals are more likely to attempt and commit suicide (the statistics are appalling - something like being 14 times more likely to attempt suicide ).  And this is a consequence of ingrained discrimination and religious "damning" that has created a culture where LGBTI individuals have difficulty expressing who they are without fear of judgement, or in extreme cases, retribution. 

The Duggar's are part of this - they loudly and clearly advocate for the removal of LGBTI rights which contributes to the toxic discrimination that does drive people to suicide. 

When the Duggar's say that homosexuality is a sin/ all homosexuals are going to hell/we should try to cleanse the earth of LGTBI people on a public platform with a large audience they make it that much harder for a kid who isn't sure of who he or she is but is too afraid to confess to their parents and friends.  It makes it that much worse for someone who is struggling with discrimination and bullying and who already has thoughts of self-harm.  

The Duggar's have used their high profile to advocate for their own political agenda and their words can have far-reaching consequences.  Think of the straw that broke the camels back; the Duggar's and their anti-homosexual rants aren't a massive log but they are another small stick that might push someone towards the edge.  

While no-one would directly blame the Duggars (or any other hate group) for an individual's suicide, it is attitudes like theirs that are contributing factors. 

[mbutterfly]

It was obvious the lesbian couple were the instigators from the very beginning. They were very pleased with themselves.

I said it before but I still can't believe how practically giddy they were about getting this information out. As collateral damage, it's basically "ruined" the girls lives. As much as I don't like the Duggar beliefs, I still believe this shouldn't have come out. No one deserves this. Sad for all the children within the upheaval.

I highly doubt they would be able to prove it wasn't with mal intent.

I may be confused but I think the malicious intent discussion was about Michelle slandering the Chief of Police. 

[frenchtoast]

I disagree with this. To me, this is a central concept of Christianity -- just because someone does you wrong doesn't mean you have to bite back. What's sad in this context is the fact that the Duggars hateful and bigoted opinions don't spark outrage in the "Christian" community. It's unfortunate that a religion that is founded on love, and specifically about love for the weak and the outcast, should so loudly rail against the rights of the LGBT community -- but that's a post for another thread.

 

The Duggars weren't (and shouldn't have been) outed because of their stance against LGBT rights. They have every right to express their opinion just as I have every right to express mine.

 

The Duggars nasty little secret is now public knowledge because they 1) chose to become public figures and make themselves of interest to the media and 2) because they did the wrong thing and didn't handle the situation properly when Josh was a minor, and there is now a police report regarding an adult.

 

And, I find it interesting that these people who assume that every minute of their lives is micro-managed by God, haven't even considered that it might have been God's will that their secret should be revealed. No, they only see only bad people with an "agenda" and evil liberal media.

As for the bolded part, the issue, for me, isn't their opinion, it's that they tried to legislate their opinion, religion and morality into laws that would affect all citizens be they Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or atheist. For me it comes down to they do not have a right to discriminate in a public sphere because of religion. If groups hate, be prepared for some backlash, too. The Duggars, and vocal hate spewing religious leaders, cannot hide behind the Constitution when people disagree with them. We are all accorded free speech which includes vehemently criticizing the Duggars.

 

That last paragraph? Agree entirely. Spot on. I would love to see their faces if someone dared make that comment to them. As in, I want a video because I think Michelle's eyes would actually pop out of her head.

[galax-arena]

To me, this is a central concept of Christianity -- just because someone does you wrong doesn't mean you have to bite back.

But they're not dealing with Christians, no? After all, it's a common refrain among evangelicals/fundies that one cannot be gay and Christian at the same time. So why should they expect these evil godless homosexual heathens to abide by a Christian concept? That Barnfield lady says she's a Christian, but... pfsht. /sarcasm

 

In all seriousness though, if that's what the Duggars really thought - that "turn the other cheek" should have provided them an out - then they can STFD.

 

The Duggars weren't (and shouldn't have been) outed because of their stance against LGBT rights. They have every right to express their opinion just as I have every right to express mine.

They were outed due to their hatemongering. The Daily Mail interview - I know, it's the Daily Mail, aka the Daily Fail - makes that clear. The woman who spilled the beans to InTouch was motivated due to Michelle's transphobic robocall.

 

And, once again, no one's saying that the Duggars don't have the right to express their opinions. Absolutely no one. What people are saying is that they don't have the right to never be criticized. Or to not have their own hypocrisy come to light - provided that no laws are being broken in revealing said hypocrisy, of course*. What rights are being violated here? Unless one believes that the report was released illegally, the Duggars weren't unfairly screwed over at all.

 

if someone, gay, straight or otherwise kills themself, i would like to think it was more to do with deeper issues than just "because the duggers".

My point is that the Duggars' bigotry does its part in contributing to the hostile environment that many LGBT people find themselves in, resulting in so much violence and hate.... along with everyone else who has done their level best to discriminate and bully and persecute. So the Duggars alone are not solely responsible, but are they part of the bigger problem and therefore morally culpable to a degree? Yes, absolutely.

 

And yes, studies have indeed shown that LGBT suicides and/or mental health issues are due in large part to outside/external factors - e.g. how society treats them - than due to some intrinsic problem with their sexual/gender identity.

 

* For example, I would love it if all the "the only moral abortion is my abortion" pro-lifers could be exposed as well, but that couldn't be done without completely violating medical ethics and doctor/patient confidentiality, which makes it wrong IMO. But to reiterate, unless one believes that the Duggar police report was released illegally, nothing similarly unethical happened here. 

Edited June 13, 2015 by galax-arena

[andromeda331]

And, I find it interesting that these people who assume that every minute of their lives is micro-managed by God, haven't even considered that it might have been God's will that their secret should be revealed. No, they only see only bad people with an "agenda" and evil liberal media.

 

 

I love this comment. And considering how many people knew about it and the attempts that others made to expose it. The rumors and stuff, the canceled interview maybe God was trying to. They believe it about everything else in their life except this.

[Fuzzysox]

I don't know where to put this article on Huckabee. Ewww 

 

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/co-author-of-mike-huckabee-books-accused-of-child-molestation/

[Churchhoney]

Sorry if this has already been posted. I didn't see it, so here it is (perhaps again). Paul Petersen (who as a kid actor played Jeff on the Donna Reed show many many many many many years ago, and who, through his organization, A Minor Consideration, has been an angry voice for a long time about the problems of kids in the entertainment industry) has some Facebook posts on the Duggar situation and related matters. To wit, some excerpts:

 

https://www.facebook.com/minorcon/posts/893526584044294

 

"This Society persists in believing that children participating in the media are a protected Class; that a portion of their income is protected, that their work hours are limited, and their education is provided by their employers. It’s just not true.

....Here’s the rub. In Arkansas where the Duggar Family is produced there are Laws on the books that might have prevented the filming of this highly suspect family. But the Laws were ignored and went unenforced to this day. ....Where are the work permits, because they’re required? What are the terms of employment and what official reviewed them?

 

"...This is official neglect.
If the minimal protections we imagine are extended to the most visible children in our culture had been present in the real Arkansas world then even a cursory background check of the Duggar family would have revealed the tawdry truth about this holier-than-thou example of reality television’s unceasing need to focus on the 'unusual, the freakish, the abnormal.'

"Did we learn nothing from the deliberately fabricated broadcasts of “John & Kate + 8?” How many times do we have to witness the unraveling of a famous television family before we demand common-sense action?

"...The First Amendment was not crafted to protect the parent and producers involved in collaborative products that utilize minors. A novelist, a painter, a sculptor or a pamphleteer is, as an individual, by definition protected in his or her right to free expression. Not so the parent who sells their off-spring into the maw of popular entertainment. Not so the people involved in the wide-spread dissemination of the culturally-biased portrayal of childhood.

 

"...Children in reality television deserve more protections than their counterparts in professionally- produced entertainment product, and as we’ve proven beyond any reasonably doubt, professional children are deliberately, woefully, dangerously under-protected."

[cmr2014]

 

As for the bolded part, the issue, for me, isn't their opinion, it's that they tried to legislate their opinion, religion and morality into laws that would affect all citizens be they Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or atheist. For me it comes down to they do not have a right to discriminate in a public sphere because of religion. If groups hate, be prepared for some backlash, too. The Duggars, and vocal hate spewing religious leaders, cannot hide behind the Constitution when people disagree with them. We are all accorded free speech which includes vehemently criticizing the Duggars.

 

I agree that there is nothing wrong with criticizing the Duggars, and their beliefs, I'm just stating that they have a right to those beliefs, and a right to try to influence public opinion.

 

I am no fan of the Duggar parents. I think that they are bad parents and bad Christians -- and generally just kind of unpleasant people.

 

But, if the person who is responsible for "outing" the Duggars and their nasty little "secret" did so because of robo-calls that it was beyond petty. This war is over and the LGBT community has won. There isn't going to be immediate acceptance in all quarters, and the Fayetteville ordinance may have passed, but the reality is that the tide has turned and the public overwhelmingly supports equal rights for everyone.

 

I can understand the desire to hurt the Duggars, and to see this particular smarmy, self-righteous family brought down a peg, but I would be genuinely upset to learn that someone tipped off the media for such petty reasons. If it was a case where one of the adult Duggars had committed adultery, or been seen with prostitutes, or, better yet, same-sex prostitutes, I could see outing them -- and feeling some glee about it -- but there are children involved here who are innocent victims.

 

[galax-arena]

it was beyond petty.

I wouldn't say that reacting to the defeat of an anti-discrimination ordinance is petty. These are people's civil rights we're talking about. People's lives being destroyed due to the sort of ignorance and hate that the Duggars peddle. 

 

This war is over and the LGBT community has won.

No, we haven't. The war for same-sex marriage is over, but same-sex marriage =/= LGBT civil rights for everyone. That war will (largely) be over when gender identity and sexual orientation are added to the list of federally protected classes* and considering the makeup of the government, we are a long way away. I don't think you can say that the war is over when the anti-discrimination ordinance in question was repealed, or when kids like Leelah are still killing themselves and there is still a lot of hate crime violence out there. 

 

* And maybe not even then. After all, race is a federally protected class and yet it seems to be open season on black people from the police. 

Edited June 13, 2015 by galax-arena

[GEML]

The Duggars kept their secret for 10 years while doing their TV show. If they would have stayed out of politics, they could have had their show and maintained their secret. They took the first shot at the gay and transgender communities. When you go after someone, you have to understand that they may come back at you. If Michelle didn't make her robocall and Josh didn't join the FRC, I don't think this crisis would have happened to them.

I do think this is true. There still might have been a scandal, but there wouldn't have been people who weren't as aware of the show delighting in their downfall. (I am basing my opinion on people delighting in their downfall on my FB feed, and mostly by people who have never watched a single episode. It does NOT apply to anyone here, where even the snark has been very civil, and predominantly show oriented.)

[Cherrio]

Sorry if this has already been posted. I didn't see it, so here it is (perhaps again). Paul Petersen (who as a kid actor played Jeff on the Donna Reed show many many many many many years ago, and who, through his organization, A Minor Consideration, has been an angry voice for a long time about the problems of kids in the entertainment industry) has some Facebook posts on the Duggar situation and related matters. To wit, some excerpts:

 

https://www.facebook.com/minorcon/posts/893526584044294

 

"This Society persists in believing that children participating in the media are a protected Class; that a portion of their income is protected, that their work hours are limited, and their education is provided by their employers. It’s just not true.

....Here’s the rub. In Arkansas where the Duggar Family is produced there are Laws on the books that might have prevented the filming of this highly suspect family. But the Laws were ignored and went unenforced to this day. ....Where are the work permits, because they’re required? What are the terms of employment and what official reviewed them?

 

"...This is official neglect.

If the minimal protections we imagine are extended to the most visible children in our culture had been present in the real Arkansas world then even a cursory background check of the Duggar family would have revealed the tawdry truth about this holier-than-thou example of reality television’s unceasing need to focus on the 'unusual, the freakish, the abnormal.'

"Did we learn nothing from the deliberately fabricated broadcasts of “John & Kate + 8?” How many times do we have to witness the unraveling of a famous television family before we demand common-sense action?

"...The First Amendment was not crafted to protect the parent and producers involved in collaborative products that utilize minors. A novelist, a painter, a sculptor or a pamphleteer is, as an individual, by definition protected in his or her right to free expression. Not so the parent who sells their off-spring into the maw of popular entertainment. Not so the people involved in the wide-spread dissemination of the culturally-biased portrayal of childhood.

 

"...Children in reality television deserve more protections than their counterparts in professionally- produced entertainment product, and as we’ve proven beyond any reasonably doubt, professional children are deliberately, woefully, dangerously under-protected."

Paul retired from the organization he created a couple of years ago.

[bluebonnet]

It might be relevant to point out these two women did not provide new information to the press.  These are rumors that have been around for years, even mentioned in near perfectly accurate detail on a forum.  That the media ignored this for nearly a decade is a separate issue.  

 

And it's absolutely not petty for them to have directed the media to these details and rumors.  It's unfortunate that there are children involved, but the Duggars decided to put their children in the public eye.  I think any of us who are concerned about the children are likely also very interested in supporting a cause that protect children in the entertainment business.  But guess what.  There are children involved on the other side, too, and for them it's not a matter of whether or not they will get to be on tv but whether or not they will get to be treated like human beings with equal protections under the law. The LGBTQIA community is nowhere near winning the 'war' and we're not all adults.  What people like the Duggars do to us is devastating and extremely harmful.  It is not even close to petty to do anything one can to knock someone off their platform, especially when it's in service of protecting other humans, which includes children.  

Edited June 14, 2015 by bluebonnet

[Julia]

But, if the person who is responsible for "outing" the Duggars and their nasty little "secret" did so because of robo-calls that it was beyond petty. This war is over and the LGBT community has won. There isn't going to be immediate acceptance in all quarters, and the Fayetteville ordinance may have passed, but the reality is that the tide has turned and the public overwhelmingly supports equal rights for everyone.

 

So what you're saying is that the Duggars successfully led a thoroughly slanderous crusade to take rights away from people who didn't deserve it for reasons, and it was in some way acceptable (or at least dismissable) discourse. For the people who were marginalized to fight back against the effects of that vote by showing that the people calling them predatory pedophiles actually went to great lengths to protect someone who molested children in a predatory manner, on the other hand, is petty?

 

I think that's a hard position to support.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Julia

[Churchhoney]

 

 

Paul retired from the organization he created a couple of years ago.

Oh, yeah, right. He's president emeritus or something now.

[cmr2014]

 

So what you're saying is that the Duggars successfully led a crusade to take rights away from people who didn't deserve it but for the people who were marginalized to fight back against the effects of that vote by showing that the people calling them predatory pedophiles actually went to great lengths to protect someone who molested children in a predatory manner is petty?

 

I don't think that the Duggars "successfully led" this campaign. I don't think that they are that powerful, or that committed to anything. I think that someone asked J'chelle to do the robo-call, and spoon-fed her the preposterous image of men pretending to be transgender in order to gain access to women's restrooms. 

 

The Duggars are small time religious cult members who have a following among like-minded right-wing religious zealots. Although they have a basic cable reality show, they don't talk about their beliefs on that show. I simply don't believe that they have any power outside of that community, and I don't think that they have ever had the moral gravitas to change anyone's mind about LBGT rights. 

 

I stand by my statement, though, if there was some petty tit-for-tat in this, then someone did the right thing for the wrong reason. This sort of thing simply plays into the hands of people who think that Christians are being "persecuted for their beliefs." I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but that's my opinion.

[Julia]

I don't think that the Duggars "successfully led" this campaign. I don't think that they are that powerful, or that committed to anything. I think that someone asked J'chelle to do the robo-call, and spoon-fed her the preposterous image of men pretending to be transgender in order to gain access to women's restrooms. 

 

And I think that's arguable, unless you accept the existence of celebrity culture, which is why the Duggars became commodities to begin with, and why they're millionaires.

 

Make what arguments you will, you're going to have to posit that their influence as secular celebrities had no influence on the political issues they used their influences to affect, which would beg the question: why was a political pressure group paying their eldest son, who probably wasn't eligible for an assistant manager's job at Hobby Lobby or WalMart, for a lobbying job prominent enough that his picture was taken with pretty much everyone who was even thinking about running for president on the Republican ticket?

 

It's doing the cause no service to claim that this isn't a really bad situation which outside parties are reporting on.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Julia

[Churchhoney]

They're so fearful and lacking in empathy. If you give people like that a bully pulpit from which to urge others to pass laws and make rules for communities and families, you end up with the Inquisition. Doing what you can to remove them from their position of extraordinary influence seems to me to be a perfectly proportionate response to the dangers they pose. And that goes double for the Duggars who've convinced so many that they're "sweet" Christians who do what Jesus would do, spreading "love that multiplies." That's the very opposite of what they spread, it seems to me. If they looked like the Grand Inquisitor, they'd be less dangerous. But Michelle's baby voice and JimBob's good old boy persona make them even more dangerous because it makes people think that their beliefs -- whose more dicey elements they go to great lengths to hide on the show -- are benign.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Darknight]

Maybe we should limit the number of kids one couple has. One child policy.. Since taking away other people's rights is ok

[truthtalk2014]

Maybe we should limit the number of kids one couple has. One child policy.. Since taking away other people's rights is ok

MEchelle's eyes have literally popped out of her head and her uterus is on the ground moaning.  Happy?  :)

[bluebonnet]

 

The Duggars are small time religious cult members who have a following among like-minded right-wing religious zealots. Although they have a basic cable reality show, they don't talk about their beliefs on that show. I simply don't believe that they have any power outside of that community, and I don't think that they have ever had the moral gravitas to change anyone's mind about LBGT rights.

If they have no power outside of their own small fundy following, then there wouldn't be any public interest in them beyond some minor blurb on Huff Post or something and we wouldn't even be having this conversation.  But that's not the case.  They have platforms that reach millions.  It's not just a tv show (which, btw, they always talk about their beliefs on that show, every single episode).  It's interviews with major news, magazine covers, major social media followings, book deals, political photo ops, retail, etc.  It's possible the be very aware of the Duggars and their beliefs without ever watching the tv show.

 

Let's say I'm an atheist gay white male and I need a new TV. I have zero reason to be interested in the Duggars.  I go to Wal-Mart where the display tvs are playing GMA, which has the Duggars on discussing their beliefs on women, men, god, family planning, marriage and more.  While walking to checkout, I see the bookshelves with Duggar books prominently displayed, again discussing their beliefs and lifestyle.  I get to checkout and I see several magazine covers again portraying the Duggars and their beliefs and lifestyles.  I get home and turn on the tv to the news to hear and see about another Duggar hobnobbing with major politicians and speaking for a well-known hate group.  All of this I've seen and learned about the Duggars and their message/ministry without even accessing the internet, reading a newspaper or watching tv.  

 

Pop culture currency can sometimes be a lot more powerful than even political currency.  The Duggars have A LOT of pop culture currency.  If they didn't, then the release of this information would be no big deal.  

Edited June 14, 2015 by bluebonnet

[Mindymoo]

If they have no power outside of their own small fundy following, then there wouldn't be any public interest in them beyond some minor blurb on Huff Post or something and we wouldn't even be having this conversation.  But that's not the case.  They have platforms that reach millions.  It's not just a tv show (which, btw, they always talk about their beliefs on that show, every single episode).  It's interviews with major news, magazine covers, major social media followings, book deals, political photo ops, retail, etc.  It's possible the be very aware of the Duggars and their beliefs without ever watching the tv show.

 

Let's say I'm an atheist straight white male and I need a new TV.  I go to Wal-Mart where the display tvs are playing GMA, which has the Duggars on discussing their beliefs on women, men, god, family planning, marriage and more.  While walking to checkout, I see the bookshelves with Duggar books prominently displayed, again discussing their beliefs and lifestyle.  I get to checkout and I see several magazine covers again portraying the Duggars and their beliefs and lifestyles.  I get home and turn on the tv to the news to hear and see about another Duggar hobnobbing with major politicians and speaking for a well-known hate group.  All of this I've seen and learned about the Duggars and their message/ministry without even accessing the internet, reading a newspaper or watching tv.  

 

Pop culture currency can sometimes be a lot more powerful than even political currency.  The Duggars have A LOT of pop culture currency.  If they didn't, then the release of this information would be no big deal.  

Right you are. I've never watched a single episode of their stupid show. However, I know who they are, the platform of their beliefs, what they believe about "evil" atheist lesbians like me and my wife and my "perverted" trans friends because these people are everywhere. Even before the molestation story broke, they were in newspapers, on online newsmedia, and there were stories about them on the news programs I do watch on CBS, CNN and MSNBC. The media was saturated with them. Even entertainment newsmedia had stories about them. My 82-year-old Busia who never watched their show or Fox News knew who they were before the story broke because she subscribes to People Magazine and watches other news programs. (She also knows about Snookie, which I find hilarious.) These aren't some backwoods nobodies: these are people who actually did hold some power, who hung around with right wing politicians, who spread some really awful hate speech about people like me, friends of mine, and members of my family. And I knew all about this before we learned that Josh was a child molester.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Mindy McIndy

[Happyfatchick]

I don't think that the Duggars "successfully led" this campaign. I think that someone asked J'chelle to do the robo-call

The Duggars are small time religious cult members who have a following among like-minded right-wing religious zealots.

I stand by my statement, though, if there was some petty tit-for-tat in this, then someone did the right thing for the wrong reason. This sort of thing simply plays into the hands of people who think that Christians are being "persecuted for their beliefs." I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but that's my opinion.

And you have every right to your opinion, as do we all.

I don't have numbers to support my opinion, so I may be (probably am) speaking out of turn. Having been subjected to Gothard's teaching myself in my youth and early years of my first marriage, I'm going to say I don't find the Duggars small potatoes. I believe they all (including Mr. Gothard) found the show to be a way to present how brilliant it was to live like this. Many, many young couples eat this UP, and "purpose" to live this way without ever considering the downside. (And the downside can be gut wrenching, to which I speak from personal experience). I would like to see some numbers for myself what percentage of young Christians adhere to this teaching, what percentage stick to it for life, and what percentage eventually leave (and why, but that's an essay question). You really cannot LIVE a fail free, sin free life. It's not humanly possible. To expect to do so surely sets a family up for failure, disappointment and heartbreak; not to mention the individual grief over falling short of the glory of God EVERY.SINGLE.DAY.

About the robo call: I read* that MICHELLE paid for the call. I don't doubt that someone suggested it and she took it to heart. If she, in fact, PAID for it, I am not sure I can land on the side of it being a smallish decision. If she paid for it and wrote (and read) the script, she meant for it to have far reaching impact. There is the side of JB squeezing every penny until Lincoln screams - if they paid for it, it was because they understood fully their potential to get people out to vote. They were really no small influence. They don't "say" anything as an opinion... "Well, that's what WE believe and it works for us". Their statements come out as facts... "The BIBLE says..." They stand on the authority of Gods word and they extend it as fact. Yes, Michelle gets her opinion as well. And if she'd preceded her script with "this is what we believe, and we'd like to share it with you", the backlash may not have been so great.

Additionally, I read the script from yesterday's interview with the woman kissing her wife in front of the Duggar house. I don't think she launched a campaign to set fire to the Duggars. She states that her SISTER posted the picture the next day on her FB account, and it just rolled down the hill from there. She's not backing down from it, she owned it. But she didn't start it.

*i think the bit that Michelle paid for the call was in the same article with the kissing pic. I'll find it and come back.

All that said, everybody has an opinion, even me... And you know they say opinions are like armpits...

*edited because their, there and they're drive me CRAZY when wrong, and I wasn't about to leave that in my post!

Edited June 14, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[Seashell Lover]

http://www.famefocus.com/10-facts-about-the-duggar-family-you-never-knew-before/?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=10%20Unkown%20Facts%20about%20the%20Duggar%20Family%20%20-%20http%3A%2F%2F1b5o2o15x5updscm137hb14j9n.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F05%2Fmichelle-duggar-881x496.jpg&utm_campaign=OUT%20FME%2011

# 7 is so much Bullshit it says Clown Car does 40 loads of laundry a week.

[NikSac]

http://www.famefocus.com/10-facts-about-the-duggar-family-you-never-knew-before/?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=10%20Unkown%20Facts%20about%20the%20Duggar%20Family%20%20-%20http%3A%2F%2F1b5o2o15x5updscm137hb14j9n.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F05%2Fmichelle-duggar-881x496.jpg&utm_campaign=OUT%20FME%2011

# 7 is so much Bullshit it says Clown Car does 40 loads of laundry a week.

 

Is this on top of the 40 that Grandma also does? 

 

These little "factoid" things always crack me up. 40 loads of laundry per week?  That's roughly 2 loads per week per person living there, right?  Seems high.  And seriously, 15 large pizzas in one sitting?  Assuming all the kids are there and no one is visiting, that's still insane and seems extremely unlikely.

[Happyfatchick]

http://www.bostonnewstime.com/regional/107591-the-downfall-of-the-duggars-how-a-hate-filled-robocall-and-a-photo-of-a-lesbian-kiss-exposed-their-dark-family-secrets.html

Here is one article I read yesterday addressing how the robocall successfully nudged the sleeping bear, who paid for it, and how a picture taken as a "fun" idea went viral. I tried to copy and paste the significant parts, but I'm not that smart. I know it's DailyMail and that gets an eye roll around here, but it seems legit.

[kalamac]

Is this on top of the 40 that Grandma also does? 

 

These little "factoid" things always crack me up. 40 loads of laundry per week?  That's roughly 2 loads per week per person living there, right?  Seems high.  And seriously, 15 large pizzas in one sitting?  Assuming all the kids are there and no one is visiting, that's still insane and seems extremely unlikely.

Josh and Jim-Bob probably eat a couple of pizzas each, so....

[cmr2014]

 

Right you are. I've never watched a single episode of their stupid show. However, I know who they are, the platform of their beliefs, what they believe about "evil" atheist lesbians like me and my wife and my "perverted" trans friends because these people are everywhere. Even before the molestation story broke, they were in newspapers, on online newsmedia, and there were stories about them on the news programs I do watch on CBS, CNN and MSNBC. The media was saturated with them. Even entertainment newsmedia had stories about them. My 82-year-old Busia who never watched their show or Fox News knew who they were before the story broke because she subscribes to People Magazine and watches other news programs. (She also knows about Snookie, which I find hilarious.) These aren't some backwoods nobodies: these are people who actually did hold some power, who hung around with right wing politicians, who spread some really awful hate speech about people like me, friends of mine, and members of my family. And I knew all about this before we learned that Josh was a child molester.

 

Knowing who they are, and caring what they think are two different things. Yes, people do know who they are in the sense that they are "those weirdos with all the kids." They appear on GMA, not because of their religious or political views, but because they seem like harmless weirdos with a bunch of kids.

 

I think that Snookie is an apt comparison (I'm making the comparison, I'm not implying that anyone else did). People may know who Snookie is, but no one looks to her for her political or social opinions.

 

I just don't see the Duggars as having any sort of moral authority (even before the scandal broke). The people who thought they were wonderful and Godly thought so because they already agreed with them (and probably didn't know a lot of their more extreme views). I simply cannot imagine the scenario where anyone, anywhere, under any circumstances would think "what would Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar do?"

[NikSac]

Josh and Jim-Bob probably eat a couple of pizzas each, so....

 

True... but the little kids?  I'm not sure when that stat is from but I have a hard time picturing, say, 3 year old Josie powering through a whole pizza. Then again maybe she gets her own, since she has that thing about slobbering on pizza toppings. Actually other than Josh and Jim Bob none of them really seem like they'd be big eaters to me. I always wonder who gets to make up those bogus sounding stats.

[galax-arena]

If they looked like the Grand Inquisitor, they'd be less dangerous. But Michelle's baby voice and JimBob's good old boy persona make them even more dangerous because it makes people think that their beliefs -- whose more dicey elements they go to great lengths to hide on the show -- are benign.

A sort of similar situation: Sometimes I read comments saying how unfair it is to compare the Duggars to the Westboro Baptist Church. Personally, I find the Duggars a lot scarier than the WBC. No one takes the WBC seriously, they're essentially Internet trolls come to life. Everyone, including other anti-gay Christians, agrees that they're crazy. To me they're a nuisance at best, about as annoying as a buzzing fly. I find them much easier to take than people like the Duggars and their soft-spoken hate being served to us with a smile and assurance that no, we really love our LGBT neighbors and that's why we're doing this because gosh darn it we just wouldn't be doing our Christian duty if we neglected to tell you that you were perverts and child molesters and this part of your identity is a sick, sick thing but it's okay, God can save you if you will only trust in Him, he can probably change your orientation if you pray hard enough and if you don't change it means because you didn't have enough faith, wait, what do you mean ex-gay isn't in vogue anymore, oops, sorry, now we're willing to grudgingly concede that you can't change your orientation but you still can't act on your desires because reasons, so you just have to stay celibate forever and it's totally not a damaging thing at all to tell you that you're not worthy of romantic love and destined to stay unloved for your entire life, and we the church will totally welcome you if you're struggling with same-sex attraction, but if you ever become comfortable in your skin and stop hating yourself and embrace your identity, then nope, you can't sit with us anymore because there's no room for unrepentant homosexuals in our church, we're so sorry you decided to throw away salvation for the carnal pleasures of the flesh. PRAISE GOD.

 

...I don't know why anyone would react badly to any of that! 

Edited June 14, 2015 by galax-arena

[JenCarroll]

True... but the little kids? I'm not sure when that stat is from but I have a hard time picturing, say, 3 year old Josie powering through a whole pizza. Then again maybe she gets her own, since she has that thing about slobbering on pizza toppings. Actually other than Josh and Jim Bob none of them really seem like they'd be big eaters to me. I always wonder who gets to make up those bogus sounding stats.

I wouldn't be surprised if the little kids don't get any. Was anyone else bothered by Jenny saying that the rehearsal dinner was "good" except that she didn't get anything, not even a drink of water. Followed by, "There was pie?!" It really sounded like no one got around to getting the kids fed (Jana was busy). Which I find depressingly plausible. This was shown on the crew episode; I don't remember which J'wedding it referred to. I do remember there was food at both the rehearsal dinners. You know, as opposed to the weddings.

ETA The pizza count probably included the crew's share. :-)

Edited June 14, 2015 by JenCarroll

[Happyfatchick]

I think that Snookie is an apt comparison (I'm making the comparison, I'm not implying that anyone else did). People may know who Snookie is, but no one looks to her for her political or social opinions.

I just don't see the Duggars as having any sort of moral authority (even before the scandal broke). The people who thought they were wonderful and Godly thought so because they already agreed with them (and probably didn't know a lot of their more extreme views). I simply cannot imagine the scenario where anyone, anywhere, under any circumstances would think "what would Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar do?"

But does Snookie have a horrible secret in her past that come out and kill her? I don't know much about Snookie, can we change the name to a figure I know? What about Michael Vick? He had EVERYTHING in the world going for him. Notoriety, money, fame, a lasting legacy and the potential to influence small children all over the entire nation. He came back, he plays (I guess he's still trying somewhere) but will never ever get past that one little area in his life that he probably would STOP if he knew. Erase the clock. Have a do-over. Or what if Tim Tebow had reached heights of (my man) Peyton Manning and then it came out he was a repeated CHILD MILESTER in his youth years??? I think you're asking to hide the past of people who USED their name and name brand to promote what they believe in - what they supposedly LIVE FOR.

you say you can't imagine the scenario where anyone, anywhere, under any circumstances would think "what would Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar do?

I can assure you cmr2014, there ARE those people. There are LOTS those well meaning, gullible people who believed with all their hearts that underlying every decision they made, every plan they laid, every THING they did was based on the very thought, "what would Jim Bob and Michelle do?" They exist, I can swear to it. It may not be you, and it's obviously not me, but they most DEFINITELY exist.

We know he molested at least one child outside his family, and you knew his history. What if he molested YOUR daughter?

Would you still be able to convince yourself that this was all better swept under a rug? Because I am of the camp that he tried it and got away with it, tried it again and got away with it to the point he couldn't go sleep at night without trying it again and again like the disease it was... I think we only know the very minutest scratch on the apex of that glacier. The fact that the two sisters stepped forward to "take one for the team" (in order to deflect pain from those who weren't willing to step out) doesn't mean nothing else happened.

Petty vindictiveness is one thing. Erupting Mt. Vesuvius is another thing altogether. The lack of true admission, the absence of JOSH as this goes forward, the minimalization of his CRIMES IS ALL A PRODUCT OF THAT CULT. Collateral damage is unfortunate and uncomfortably messy, I agree. But if the tides were turned and JB had this knowledge on one of his friend's sons against his UNDERAGE SLEEPING CHILDREN, I imagine we'd be hearing quite a different war cry coming out the doors, windows and cracks of the Tontitown, Arkansas house.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[anony mouse]

The pizza thing doesn't seem too crazy to me. Fifteen pizzas is about 150 slices. Teenage boys eat a lot. If you count Grandma, plus Jill and Jessa and their spouses, I would order fifteen for that size crowd.

[cmr2014]

 

Would you still be able to convince yourself that this was all better swept under a rug? 

 

I think you misunderstand me. I don't think that incest or child molestation should be swept under the rug, but I don't know that it is tabloid fodder either (particularly when the names of the victims are known).

 

My point is that I was disappointed to hear that this was a "tit-for-tat" revelation by someone who was angry about the robo-call. Since this was apparently an open secret in NW Arkansas, I would say that it was those people who knew, and said nothing all of these years, who I would question. 

 

There is no high moral ground here. The Duggars have no high moral ground in trying to deny rights to the members of the LBGT community, but the person who made the disclosure has no high moral ground either if incestuous child molestation is only worth talking about when it is someone who has offended you who has done it.

 

 

[NikSac]

I wouldn't be surprised if the little kids don't get any. Was anyone else bothered by Jenny saying that the rehearsal dinner was "good" except that she didn't get anything, not even a drink of water. Followed by, "There was pie?!" It really sounded like no one got around to getting the kids fed (Jana was busy). Which I find depressingly plausible. This was shown on the crew episode; I don't remember which J'wedding it referred to. I do remember there was food at both the rehearsal dinners. You know, as opposed to the weddings.

ETA The pizza count probably included the crew's share. :-)

 

True, on the pizza count - they just make it sound like it's ONLY the "19 kids" plus JB and M.  Doesn't really matter I guess, but the numbers seem so inflated they drive me nuts.

 

Yes I felt so bad for Jenny on that episode! I was assuming none of the littler kids probably got anything.  When she said "there was pie?!?" I was thinking she might have been thinking more along the lines of sweet pie and was just confused, but no water even?  Sheesh.

[Julia]

I just don't see the Duggars as having any sort of moral authority (even before the scandal broke). The people who thought they were wonderful and Godly thought so because they already agreed with them (and probably didn't know a lot of their more extreme views). I simply cannot imagine the scenario where anyone, anywhere, under any circumstances would think "what would Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar do?"

and yet, the FRC hired Josh, so people who have a great deal of professional experience with promoting a conservative social values agenda politically disagreed with you about their influence to the point that they were willling to make Josh Duggar an executive and pay him an executive salary. Then pretty much everyone who's seeded in the Republican primary got a picture taken with him. One of the two presidential candidates the family has campaigned for in the past lent them his campaign manager during the runup to the primaries to handle their little incestuous molestation problem. Which local authorities and a cable network appear to have colluded with the family at various points in covering up. They appear to have the use of a private plane to ferry them to political appearances.

I don't think they're harmless weirdos, and I'm pleased that their private morals have caught up with their public influence. I'm a bit bemused by the argument that they should have been allowed to advocate for laws restricting the rights of their fellow citizens based on private, lawful, sexual activity unimpeded because it's somehow distasteful to intrude on their privacy as a family.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Julia

[GEML]

I think both people above are right and sort of wrong about the Duggars. I don't think they have political influence. I don't think they change anyone's mind about things. I think it's fair to roll your eyes and say "no one goes around saying 'What would Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar do?'"

But where they ARE useful is in a "get out the vote" GOTV campaign. They are there to make sure the people who ALREADY agree with them make sure they go and vote. Michelle's robocall was doing that at the local level, and Josh's job was to do that at the national level.

More elections than you think are decided by less than one percentage point, which might mean anywhere from a few dozen voters in a local election to a few thousand in a statewide one. Getting your voters to the polls is crucial.

So yes, the Duggars are very much political. But it's not really because someone saw their show or read the cover of PEOPLE. Celebrity endorsements are the LEAST valuable in politics. But being able to persuade people who are disillusioned by politics, non political, or just sort of apathetic but still on your side to get out to vote is worth everything. Presidential campaigns spend millions on it. Local Dem and Republican committees are always looking for ways to get it right.

[GeeGolly]

Yikers & wow.  Very charged discussion. I think the Duggar's influence, whether political or spiritual would only effect like minded folks. Like GEML said, famous people's opinions do not carry a lot of weight. What celebrities can do & do is bring awareness to a larger audience. I believe as many folks look at the Duggar family and think "Yup, nope" verses "How godly & wonderful they are".

 

As far as Robocall verses outing the Duggars, two expressions learned in childhood come to mind; 'do unto others as you wish them to do unto you' as well as 'don't dish it out if you can't take it'. 

[frenchtoast]

Ok, folks, we've let the discussion of the Duggar's influence and reasoning behind In Touch getting the lead go on for quite a while and, for the most part, it's been respectful as well as passionate. (A side note: THANK YOU! It's a joy to watch adults engage in discussion without devolving to name calling) However, we've reached the point where we are not going to change minds and started to enter circular, beating dead horse territory. Could we please move to another Duggars in the Media subject. Perhaps wait for something new to be released to the media.

 

Thanks!