S06.E13: The Same Boat

[Trillian]

She was kissing it. Kinda like when you meet the Pope, you kneel and kiss his ring if you're a Catholic. It's a sign of devotion to Jesus Christ/God.

Some Catholics will kiss the Crucifix on the rosary but not try to gobble down the beads the way Carol was. Mileage can vary, of course, but it struck me more as playing feeble so they wouldn't take it away rather than a sign of reverence.

[Jal]

One of the best episodes of the show (I was really wavering there for a couple of seasons, but the current one has me back) featuring one of the best characters of the show, Carol.

 

Maggie and some of the others were great too, but this was all about Carol.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Jal

[catrox14]

Rick shooting the guy in the head in front of Carol and Maggie after they were clearly traumatized like it was nothing at all just cements how much he's really not thinking this whole thing through.

 

Hopefully the followup episode will not be yet another one of those where characters fail to relay important pieces of information, like say, they all claim to be Negan and you killed this guy without bothering to see if you could get any more information out of him.  Sure, the guy seemed hardly inclined to cooperate, but it was at least worth a try.  You still don't know what Negan looks like or if he's got more people or where they might be.  You have only one incident on the road and the word of the Hilltoppers, who you met all of 5 minutes ago, to go on.  And that's before you throw in that multiple members of your team are really having a hard time with coldblooded murder and may hesitate or freeze and get themselves or other team members killed as this only gets bloodier.  

 

"Only ONE incident" that was going to end up with the murders of Abe, Daryl and Sasha....yeah no big deal.  That's 3 members of Rick's group. That's no small matter.

 

I'm way out on a limb here, but I thought that Rick didn't necessarily believe him.  I think Rick was done with him either way. If he was Negan, mission accomplished. If he wasn't Negan, IMO Rick figured he was never going to give up the information and wasn't going to risk him escaping and killing anyone else. 

Edited March 15, 2016 by catrox14

[SpaghettiTuesdays]

I may be in the minority, but I actually liked the Saviors. Not Donnie or the bikers, but the the lady trio. I thought they were badass but didn't seem cartoony villainous like others have. They made me like them, then they died. I regret they only had one and a bit episodes before biting it.

 

Maggie, Maggie, Maggie!! You a beast! Love it. Carol needs this breakdown, but I fear it means her death is the season finale. I do love Carol's maternal instincts but no one in their right mind should leave her alone with a child. Fight against the bad guy hurting the kids? Yes. Actually interact with the kids? HELL NO!

 

After they said "we're all Negan" or whatever, I had a fun time creating acronyms.

[TigerLynx]

I'm way out on a limb here, but I thought that Rick didn't necessarily believe him.  I think Rick was done with him either way. If he was Negan, mission accomplished. If he wasn't Negan, IMO Rick figured he was never going to give up the information and wasn't going to risk him escaping and killing anyone else.

 

 

Also, Carol was right when she said she should have shot the Savior guy instead of just wounding him.  If you are going to attack another group who has threatened to kill your people, and who beat a 16 year old kid to death, you go for the kill, you don't keep them alive hoping they might tell you something useful or want to make friends.  Over and over again anytime Rick and Company tries to play nice with someone they know is dangerous, it backfires and innocent people end up dead.

[Ohwell]

But they do have reason to trust Jesus:

• Jesus has been to the armory and seen - and had access to - everything in it.
• That includes the pistols with suppressors.
• Which means if Jesus had so chosen, he could've capped Rick - and Michonne - and everybody else in the ASZ - in their sleep, nobody would've been the wiser, and the Hilltoppers could just roll in and take all the ASZ's shit.
• ...but Jesus didn't.

 

But Jesus could be playing a long con.  I still wouldn't trust any dude who called himself Jesus.  

[Eyes High]

But Jesus could be playing a long con.  I still wouldn't trust any dude who called himself Jesus.  

I wish Jesus was playing a long con. It would make him much more interesting if he was trying to trick the Saviours and Team Rick into destroying each other so that the Hilltop group could take over both groups, all while holding himself out as friendly and unassuming.

[Ohwell]

There's just something incredibly sneaky-looking about him.  I would have shot his ass right on the spot after the truck full of food sank.

[diebartdie]

I dont think Carol was faking anything nor do I think she was putting on an act at all this time. Think about it, in the time we've known Carol, she's been through a lot of hard things but she's never been taken hostage, at least since Ed's been dead. The way I saw it, when Carol was hyperventilating, she really was having a panic attack, I think she was having an intense flashback to a time when Ed tied her up. In that moment, that long, agonizing, choking moment all of Carol's facade's fell apart and what we were left with was just Carol, bald faced Carol, scared to death. All the bad ass super hero warrior princess facades, all the sneaky stepford wive facades all the heartless terminator facades all evaporated, she was there, defenseless yet knowing she knew how to kill knowing she could kill but not knowing if she would.

 

All the mirror dance with Paula all just ended on the one question, not would Carol kill (she did it in an instant when she got close enough to the woman threatening Maggie), the only question Carol had, the only one a person broken down so far has, "will I kill to safe myself" am I worth it? Do I deserve to draw another breath? She answered yes and yes again twice over. Carol needs a break though, needs to give it a rest and just be herself for a while. Cook food for folks, get cuddly with Tobinbear, shoot the shit with her bestie Daryl. She's so tired of war, so tired of killing and killing, tired of wearing so many masks, getting lost trying to remember who she is.

[DearEvette]

But Jesus could be playing a long con.  I still wouldn't trust any dude who called himself Jesus.  

 

Yeah, that is true.  Just because Jesus didn't kill them doesn't mean he is trustworthy.  it only means he needs them alive for some other purpose.  Killing the Alexandrians would have only resulted in them being dead.  It would not have necessarily solved whatever problems/issues Jesus & his crew have with the Saviors.  I can't help but feel their desperation for food, aided in them being manipulated some by the Hilltop community.

[RedheadZombie]

Yeah, that is true.  Just because Jesus didn't kill them doesn't mean he is trustworthy.  it only means he needs them alive for some other purpose.  Killing the Alexandrians would have only resulted in them being dead.  It would not have necessarily solved whatever problems/issues Jesus & his crew have with the Saviors.  I can't help but feel their desperation for food, aided in them being manipulated some by the Hilltop community.

And the constant reference by posters of the tortured and killed 16 y/o comes exclusively from the Hilltoppers. I believe Jesus is a good guy because comic readers seem to trust him. But I still don't get how quickly Jesus has entered the inner sanctum.

I think a little ambiguity was added by the fact that the Saviors kept to the bargain and returned the guy in exchange for the head. It also seems like the women are treated as equals. Paula was in charge and had no problem laying Ronnie out. 'Chelle's finger was amputated for stealing, but it seemed to be unrelated to her gender.

I'm not sure yet that Negan's any worse a leader than Gregory. At least he isn't portraying himself as a plantation owner, and his followers are the slaves. Time will tell.

[morgankobi]

Was I the only one who got a weird vibe when 'Chelle was describing her "boyfriend," who ended-up being one of the fried Saviors? She seemed to not like him at all, as if maybe they are assigned mates and didn't have a choice. Just me?

[Samsnee]

I mean, if you're going to do an evil mirror twin episode, at least give them some evil goatees.

[Pete Martell]

The group is emotionless about killing. At least Carol had a moral crisis, Rick had no reaction to shooting a man in the head.

 

Moral crises in this instance just make the characters freeze up, as happened to Carol several times. In Rick's mind, the guy was an enemy, and of no use to them. If he had any doubt about it he'll keep it to himself. It took a sustained series of losses and someone being in her ear over and over about how she was wrong for Carol to start to break down, because she knew she couldn't be distracted. I have a feeling she would have done the same as Rick most of the time.

First of all, I would have given the side-eye to anyone who called himself Jesus who was not Hispanic.  I mean, why would anyone in their right mind have trusted or believed this guy in the first place?  Second, I'm not convinced that Hilltoppers were telling the complete truth either.  For example, CDB simply took their word for it that the Neganites killed the 16-year old.  They knew that Sasha, Abraham and Darryl were attacked by some bad guys but that's all they've got of any solid evidence that there was this dangerous group out there.  

 

He said his friends called him Jesus, probably because of his looks, more than actually thinking he's a messiah. He also told them his real name. They could call him "Paul" if they wanted.  

 

There is no strong reason to believe him, but given their lack of food and that pretty much everyone they've met in the world has been as evil, or even more evil, than they could have imagined, I can see why they decided to believe him. 

[ACW]

But Jesus could be playing a long con. I still wouldn't trust any dude who called himself Jesus.

He called himself Paul, but noted that his friends call him Jesus. (And what a friend they have in Jesus!)

[missy jo]

Timetoread, thanks for mentioning the "motherhood" angle. Even though TWD doesn't always portray the mothers as stronger or more motivated, I still noticed it. Also, in society in general, it seems like women are more valued if they are mothers, when they should be equally as important regardless.

[Pete Martell]

Rick shooting the guy in the head in front of Carol and Maggie after they were clearly traumatized like it was nothing at all just cements how much he's really not thinking this whole thing through.

 

Hopefully the followup episode will not be yet another one of those where characters fail to relay important pieces of information, like say, they all claim to be Negan and you killed this guy without bothering to see if you could get any more information out of him.  Sure, the guy seemed hardly inclined to cooperate, but it was at least worth a try.  You still don't know what Negan looks like or if he's got more people or where they might be.  You have only one incident on the road and the word of the Hilltoppers, who you met all of 5 minutes ago, to go on.  And that's before you throw in that multiple members of your team are really having a hard time with coldblooded murder and may hesitate or freeze and get themselves or other team members killed as this only gets bloodier.  

 

When Rick gave the group the choice about whether to go after Negan, he mentioned that the situation wasn't really going to change, the main difference is they'll just slowly become weaker. I think that also entails how the group will react to cold-blooded murder. Most of the group manages to deal with it. Those who can't, in his mind, probably either have to get over it, or can stay out of the way and help with other matters. 

 

I think there have been too many times of Rick not getting anything but the worst result for him to not go with his base instinct. That's what he did with Terminus, what he wanted to do with the cops at Grady, etc. It's not always true - he had a feeling he could trust Jesus, so he spared him - but mostly he just seems to not care anymore about ambiguity or hesitancy. 

[Pete Martell]

The other thing with Rick is that many times he didn't want to make the bleakest choices, he would be told how wrong he was (whether by Shane, or by Carol herself, who basically cast herself as the "strong" one who had to do things he couldn't or wouldn't). He was also shown many times what horrors would happen when he didn't make the bleakest choices. In his mind, he probably thinks if he'd shot every prisoner on sight when they got there, Lori would still be alive, if he'd killed The Governor when they met in season 3, Hershel would still be alive, etc.

 

I think in the past some in the group may have pushed back more, but the attacks on Alexandria and the not-so-distant memories of Terminus, the Governor, etc. have worn down their resistance. 

[Eyes High]

He called himself Paul, but noted that his friends call him Jesus. (And what a friend they have in Jesus!)

To be fair, he did introduce himself to Carl as Jesus, not Paul.

[catrox14]

To be fair, he did introduce himself to Carl as Jesus, not Paul.

 

He introduced himself to Rick and Daryl first. 

 

"What's your name"

"Paul Rovia. But my friends used to call me Jesus.  Your pick "

 

When Carl put a gun to his head, he said "I'm Jesus".

 

But Rick and Daryl know he's Paul Rovia

Edited March 15, 2016 by catrox14

[nachomama]

If Jesus was playing a long con, what about the two bumbling idiots, known as Rick and Daryl, who he easily stole their truck, easily escaped their bonds to ride the top of the truck, played chase with a truck in a field and who ultimately sank the truck of sorely needed provisions would make him choose them to go kill Negan?? Nothing about them would strike anybody as competent. 

 

The prosthetics they had on Alicia's Witt's face for her initial bite were terrible. Every once in a while their make up effects are super cheesy, but her face eaten off set up was oddly awesome. 

 

And perhaps I've forgotten but did they even get the exchanged brother? And was he worth it?

[lulee]

If Jesus was playing a long con, what about the two bumbling idiots, known as Rick and Daryl, who he easily stole their truck, easily escaped their bonds to ride the top of the truck, played chase with a truck in a field and who ultimately sank the truck of sorely needed provisions would make him choose them to go kill Negan?? Nothing about them would strike anybody as competent.

The prosthetics they had on Alicia's Witt's face for her initial bite were terrible. Every once in a while their make up effects are super cheesy, but her face eaten off set up was oddly awesome.

And perhaps I've forgotten but did they even get the exchanged brother? And was he worth it?

Yeah, the prosthetics were bad. It was like instead of human cheek muscle, she had grape taffy.

The brother was rescued last week and scurried out quickly. It was easy to miss given everything else that happened.

[nachomama]

thanks, I couldn't remember the exchange, if they got him before the fit hit the shan or what. I know they sent  the Hilltoppers back and said something along the lines of "do we still have a deal"? to which I was like, why are you negotiating with them? You're doing the dirty work. anywho...I'm safe in the ZA because I aint got no brains left to munch. 

[LeeMoon]

After the attack on Alexandria, there was a time jump which seems to have been a relatively peaceful time.

 

Just like Rick and Michonne started nesting, It doesn't surprise me that Carol started having doubts once she didn't have to fight every day. In all previous seasons, they had to move on after a big fight because they would always lose their home. This is the first time they fight and stay and deal with the consequences their actions have on other residents in Alexandria. This is the first time they aren't moving around, but have a home base that offers relative comfort and companionship.

 

Carol had to change her attitude in order to accept people outside of her core group. She started to see the gray again after a long time of fighting for her little group against the world. I don't see that as a bad thing that she is readjusting her worldview to get a better handle on who is an enemy that should be shot on sight, and who is someone that should be dealt with in a different way.

[Boofish]

How do you run a con game before you know your target? How was Jesus to know Rick and his group were just as crazy as The Negans? What type of con includes taking people to your compound and allowing them to keep their guns? What con man escapes and waits for you to get dressed and come down to the table for a talk? Do you trust a guy who send teams on the road to murder and steal or trust the guy who had a gun to your head but was using it to save your life? I hope he is a good guy because he is a sorry azz con man.

[Ocean Chick]

Some Catholics will kiss the Crucifix on the rosary but not try to gobble down the beads the way Carol was. Mileage can vary, of course, but it struck me more as playing feeble so they wouldn't take it away rather than a sign of reverence.

 

Well, Carol wasn't Catholic, so maybe she wasn't well-versed on the "how-to"s regarding rosaries and their usage.  Heh.

 

I think Carol was at least mostly playing a con and not having a real panic attack.  She made the decision to leave a trail for Daryl to follow as they were being marched to the vehicle.  And when she started hyperventilating she shot a look to Maggie that seemed to indicate that she wanted Maggie to play along.  And if you watch her face you can see she's noticing things that she can use to her advantage.  If she were having a real panic attack she would not be noticing anything but her fears.

 

I know that Carol doesn't like killing.  That's been a theme all along, and especially in her arc with Morgan.  She doesn't like doing it, even though she will in order to keep the group safe.  She's tired of it now, and wants to be able to at least slow down and let some people live.  Hence her practically begging Paula to run away instead of forcing Carol to kill her.  Carol doesn't want to become Paula, killing without feeling it, coldly and off-handedly. 

Edited March 15, 2016 by Ocean Chick

[Captain Asshat]

I'm way out on a limb here, but I thought that Rick didn't necessarily believe him.  I think Rick was done with him either way. If he was Negan, mission accomplished. If he wasn't Negan, IMO Rick figured he was never going to give up the information and wasn't going to risk him escaping and killing anyone else. 

There's also the fact that, per their agreement with Gregory, they were to take out all of the Saviors. Isn't that why they raided the compound and killed a group of them as they slept? Regardless of whether this guy was actually Negan, CDB was "obligated" to kill him.

[Eyes High]

I love how Gabriel has gone from zero to badass. Did you see at the episode how he and Rosita moved in with their rifles with military precision to make sure the hall was clear behind Carol and Maggie? Loved that.

[Iguessnot]

This was an excellent episode.  However, the writer's really have a huge problem with the evolution of these characters.  Carol never used to hesitate at all when it comes to killing people.  Now, out of nowhere, she becomes apprehensive when it comes to killing people.  Where the heck did that come from?  No transition in her belief system.  Just out of nowhere, she has doubts about what she is doing.   Maggie was acting much more like Carol used to act, and that came out of nowhere as well.   I had the same problem with the Abraham  character a few weeks back.

 

Overall, this is a great series and this was one of the best episodes that I have seen, but I am really starting to get distracted with the horrible character development.  Yes, people do evolve, but not out of nowhere.  The writers really need to show the evolution of who these characters are becoming, and why, what or whom is causing them to change.

At least they showed Carol doing head counts, indicating that she was bothered by her previous actions. Maggie was a bit of an anomaly. Besides the constant teary face, what I remember most was her expression of disgust when the rest of CDB were bludgeoning the Termites. Even when she was negotiating with Gregory she seemed out of her element and I wondered why Rick designated her.

 

However I really liked Maggie this episode. Actually it's the first time I felt anything for her. I don't know where her ferocity came from, but it was blazing. 

[Iguessnot]

Well, Carol wasn't Catholic, so maybe she wasn't well-versed on the "how-to"s regarding rosaries and their usage.  Heh.

 

Her movements with the beads were so strange that I really thought she was going to eat them and spit them out like bullets like the anime Parasyte.

[LeapDayBaby]

When I first saw the smoker gal, I thought Roseanne Barr was making a guest appearance.

 

I'm probably dating myself here, but my first thought was, "Wow, she looks like Daisy from 'Keeping Up Appearances'."

 

[AngelaHunter]

Carol never used to hesitate at all when it comes to killing people.  Now, out of nowhere, she becomes apprehensive when it comes to killing people.  Where the heck did that come from?

 

I think it could be from her time in Alexandria, in a normal setting, doing things like making cookies and wiping down counters. In that setting, there's time to think about what has gone before and have some "Did I really do that? Was that really me?" thoughts. When they were on the road, hungry, in constant danger and just trying to survive another day there would be no time for that sort of introspection and self-examination, only time for action and reaction.

[nachomama]

I think it could be from her time in Alexandria, in a normal setting, doing things like making cookies and wiping down counters. In that setting, there's time to think about what has gone before and have some "Did I really do that? Was that really me?" thoughts. When they were on the road, hungry, in constant danger and just trying to survive another day there would be no time for that sort of introspection and self-examination, only time for action and reaction.

I just had a weird flash to "Walking Dead: The Musical" and Carol is the Baker's wife, "was that really me? Did I kill him? and Kill him and kill her?"

[BasilSeal]

I hope CDB realizes that they didn't wipe out all the Saviors.  If Paula was talking to some guys who weren't killed in the last episode there are likely others around.  Don't feel safe yet!

 

 

They'd have to be pretty dim not to realise that it's highly likely there are more saviours, and that the guy Rick shoots clearly isn't Negan, but then they've done equally dumb things in the past so, you know. I hope they don't do this as it's just a mark of lazy writing to make the characters temporarily stupid to facilitate the desired plot outcome, which a modicum of thought could have easily avoided, but it's something that the TWD writers have resorted to many times in the past, TBF they've not done it so much of late.

 

I'm way out on a limb here, but I thought that Rick didn't necessarily believe him.  I think Rick was done with him either way. If he was Negan, mission accomplished. If he wasn't Negan, IMO Rick figured he was never going to give up the information and wasn't going to risk him escaping and killing anyone else.

 

 

Rick kills him because killing Negan is the deal he's made with the hilltop community, that's why he apologises before shooting him. It's a really dumb move because: A. He's not Negan. and B. he was the only one who could have told them about the nature of the threat that now faces them. I have a sneaking suspicion that despite clear evidence to the contrary they'll assume that this is mission accomplished. which would be disappointing for the reasons i stated above.

Edited March 15, 2016 by BasilSeal

[catrox14]

 

Rick kills him because killing Negan is the deal he's made with the hilltop community, that's why he apologises before shooting him. It's a really dumb move because: A. He's not Negan. and B. he was the only one who could have told them about the nature of the threat that now faces them. I have a sneaking suspicion that despite cleave evidence to the contrary they'll assume that this is mission accomplished. which would be disappointing for the reasons i stated above.

 

I think it's open to interpretation.

 

I don't happen to think Rick is quite as stupid as others might. I think Rick realized the guy wasn't going to give up any information and whether he was Negan or not the deal was kill Negan and the Saviors. At least that's how I understood it. 

 

My read on Andy's acting in that scene was that Rick was just done with asking and didn't believe that he was Negan. He side-eyed him like 'Really?" Only time will tell what Rick was thinking.

Edited March 15, 2016 by catrox14

[Pete Martell]

This was an excellent episode.  However, the writer's really have a huge problem with the evolution of these characters.  Carol never used to hesitate at all when it comes to killing people.  Now, out of nowhere, she becomes apprehensive when it comes to killing people.  Where the heck did that come from?  No transition in her belief system.  Just out of nowhere, she has doubts about what she is doing.   Maggie was acting much more like Carol used to act, and that came out of nowhere as well.   I had the same problem with the Abraham  character a few weeks back

 

While it was laid on a bit thick, I don't think it came out of nowhere. She was badly shaken by what she had to do in JSS - the Rambette Carol in some quarters of fanon would have coldly stabbed dying neighbors in the brain, instead of having a difficult time processing what she was doing. Even in season 4, when Carol was doing everything she could to cut herself off emotionally, after she killed Lizzie, she chose to tell Tyreese about Karen and David, and chose to make the highly emotional decision of giving him a gun if he wanted to kill her as her penance.

 

I think in the back half of last season we saw so much of hardened Carol, super-Carol, etc. and they didn't have quite enough moments that showed the person under the mask. This season, again I think it's been a little overbaked (the writing, not the acting), but I think it makes sense.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Pete Martell

[Pete Martell]

Rick kills him because killing Negan is the deal he's made with the hilltop community, that's why he apologises before shooting him. It's a really dumb move because: A. He's not Negan. and B. he was the only one who could have told them about the nature of the threat that now faces them. I have a sneaking suspicion that despite clear evidence to the contrary they'll assume that this is mission accomplished. which would be disappointing for the reasons i stated above.

 

Given how not-so-subtle the writing is, if they thought this was it I think they would have had Rick or Maggie say something like, "It's over."  But who knows. 

 

I'm not really sure if he could have done anything to help them, or if he would have. 

[TigerLynx]

Jesus' real name might not be Paul Rovia either.  It's not like anyone can do a background check on someone else in the ZA.  Team Rick made a deal with a shady character, Gregory, and his followers to kill a group they know threatened to kill some of their people (Darryl, Sasha and Abe).  The story of Negan's group beating a 16 year old kid to death to keep the Hilltoppers in line sounds believable because the Negan group Darryl and Company met on the road told them they usually killed someone right off the bat in order to keep others in line.  Of course that means, unless they were being restrained, the Hilltoppers stood by and watched a 16 year old kid get beat to death, and didn't try to help him.  Just like the Alexandrians used to leave people behind rather than risk harm to themselves.  With all of Jesus' mad ninja skills why didn't he do something about Negan, and why put up with Gregory the jackass.  The explanation of the other Hilltoppers liking Gregory seems far fetched considering what a jerk Gregory seems to be 24/7.

[Raven1707]

The Sunday Cable Ratings are in for "The Same Boat":

 

“The Walking Dead” dipped a little bit on Sunday, hitting a season low in adults 18-49 with a 6.0 rating (which was still by far the biggest 18-49 rating of the day, cable or broadcast). [Total: 12.350 million viewers]

 

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2016/03/15/sunday-cable-ratings-march-13-2016/

 

And here are the Live + SD Ratings for Season 6 so far:

 

10-11-15 "First Time Again" 14.633 million viewers
10-18-15 "JSS" 12.183 million viewers
10-25-15 "Thank You" 13.143 million viewers
11-01-15 "Here's Not Here" 13.339 million viewers
11-08-15 "Now" 12.440 million viewers
11-15-15 "Always Accountable" 12.871 million viewers
11-22-15 "Heads Up" 13.224 million viewers
11-29-15 "Start to Finish" 13.981 million viewers

 

02-14-16 "No Way Out" 13.742 million viewers
02-21-16 "The Next World" 13.483 million viewers
02-28-16 "Knots Untie" 12.794 million viewers
03-06-16 "Not Tomorrow Yet" 12.816 million viewers
03-13-16 "The Same Boat" 12.350 million viewers

[SoSueMe]

I dont think Carol was faking anything nor do I think she was putting on an act at all this time. Think about it, in the time we've known Carol, she's been through a lot of hard things but she's never been taken hostage, at least since Ed's been dead. The way I saw it, when Carol was hyperventilating, she really was having a panic attack, I think she was having an intense flashback to a time when Ed tied her up. In that moment, that long, agonizing, choking moment all of Carol's facade's fell apart and what we were left with was just Carol, bald faced Carol, scared to death. All the bad ass super hero warrior princess facades, all the sneaky stepford wive facades all the heartless terminator facades all evaporated, she was there, defenseless yet knowing she knew how to kill knowing she could kill but not knowing if she would.

 

All the mirror dance with Paula all just ended on the one question, not would Carol kill (she did it in an instant when she got close enough to the woman threatening Maggie), the only question Carol had, the only one a person broken down so far has, "will I kill to safe myself" am I worth it? Do I deserve to draw another breath? She answered yes and yes again twice over. Carol needs a break though, needs to give it a rest and just be herself for a while. Cook food for folks, get cuddly with Tobinbear, shoot the shit with her bestie Daryl. She's so tired of war, so tired of killing and killing, tired of wearing so many masks, getting lost trying to remember who she is.

Great post! Waayyyy insightful, you've convinced me.

I dont think Carol was faking anything nor do I think she was putting on an act at all this time. Think about it, in the time we've known Carol, she's been through a lot of hard things but she's never been taken hostage, at least since Ed's been dead. The way I saw it, when Carol was hyperventilating, she really was having a panic attack, I think she was having an intense flashback to a time when Ed tied her up. In that moment, that long, agonizing, choking moment all of Carol's facade's fell apart and what we were left with was just Carol, bald faced Carol, scared to death. All the bad ass super hero warrior princess facades, all the sneaky stepford wive facades all the heartless terminator facades all evaporated, she was there, defenseless yet knowing she knew how to kill knowing she could kill but not knowing if she would.

 

All the mirror dance with Paula all just ended on the one question, not would Carol kill (she did it in an instant when she got close enough to the woman threatening Maggie), the only question Carol had, the only one a person broken down so far has, "will I kill to safe myself" am I worth it? Do I deserve to draw another breath? She answered yes and yes again twice over. Carol needs a break though, needs to give it a rest and just be herself for a while. Cook food for folks, get cuddly with Tobinbear, shoot the shit with her bestie Daryl. She's so tired of war, so tired of killing and killing, tired of wearing so many masks, getting lost trying to remember who she is.

Great post! Waayyyy insightful, you've convinced me.

[RedheadZombie]

I don't see how Rick's people could erroneously think that they are involving themselves between two feuding groups when Daryl, Abraham, and Sacha encountered Negan's men on the road. They were going to steal everything from them, they claimed everything that they owned belonged to Negan, and they were going to kill one of them to show that they were serious and boasted that this is how they always do things. Only Daryl killing Negan's man and taking out the others with the RPG saved their lives. What Daryl, Abraham, and Sacha experienced is consistent with what the Hilltop people told them about Negan. In fact, Rick would be foolish to come to any other conclusion than Negan is dangerous and should be stopped before he comes for them.

 

Responding to bold:  And when negotiations went south at Hilltop, Rick stated that they weren't leaving empty handed.  Which implies, IMO, there would be violence and stealing, unless the Hilltoppers saw things Rick's way.

 

Look, we all know that Negan is going to be the big bad.  The point many are attempting to make, is Rick's gang is working on second and third hand knowledge, did absolutely no reconnaissance, and involved more fighters than CDB could stand to lose if things went bad.  It is the first time that CDB has decided to proactively kill people, to kill 100% of the people, to attack in their own home while they are sleeping.  It's a scorched earth tactic.  And they are doing it on less than in depth knowledge of Negan and his people.

 

In comparison, look how suspiciously Rick treated Terminus.  And even with his caution, they almost died.  Look at how suspiciously Grady was treated - Rick ran down and killed a man who was running for his life with his hands handcuffed behind his back.  Look at how suspicious Rick was of Alexandria - he had a full blown breakdown that was only ended by Michonne's fist. 

 

It is within reason that many people are out there using Negan's name to intimidate.  They have no way of knowing if the group they demolished is actually related to Negan, and/or the three stooges that Daryl blew away.  It was relatively easy to get CDB to agree to attack and kill an entire group of people, whilst leaving their own territory in Alexandria with minimal protection.  Yet it seems that none of this was talked through or even considered.

 

And lastly, why are some so insistent that there was absolutely no way that the people we killed were innocent?  Daryl was with the Claimers for a time.  He wasn't tied up when he slept, he wasn't handcuffed.  Did he deserve to die simply because he was with a group of child raping murderers?

[TigerLynx]

The deals being made during the ZA are something human beings have been doing for centuries.  They would make alliances with people they didn't necessarily trust in order to survive.  Aaron (I think that's his name) brought Team Rick to Alexandria in the first place because while Alexandria had people and provisions, they lacked people who knew how to fight and survive.  It seems the Hilltop may have the same problem.

 

In World War II, FDR and Churchill joined forces with Stalin (a man they did not trust or like) to stop Hitler and the Nazis who they believed were a much worse threat.

 

Down the road, Gregory may be just as bad or worse than Negan.  As far as CDB, I think most of them are still trying to do the right thing, but it's a slippery slope.

[SimoneS]

Responding to bold:  And when negotiations went south at Hilltop, Rick stated that they weren't leaving empty handed.  Which implies, IMO, there would be violence and stealing, unless the Hilltoppers saw things Rick's way.

 

it is this kind of false equivalency that I simply don't understand. The situations are clearly not the same, yet you and others are attempting to make them so. When exactly did Negan's people negotiate with Daryl, Abraham, and Sasha? Yes, Rick stated that they weren't leaving empty handed, but they were willing to take the time to negotiate so they could work things out. And yes, of course, Rick should have done more reconnaissance, but he felt pressed for time because rescuing the kidnapped guy was part of the deal. I am uncomfortable watching them attack Negan's people, but I honestly cannot take the stance that they are doing the wrong thing here. If they kill him, they save a lot of lives. I think about how many lives could have been saved if Rick had killed Phillip at their first meeting. If they don't kill Negan, he comes after them, but he was going to come after them eventually so at least they are prepare. It is a risk/reward situation. 

 

I don't pick apart Rick and his people like others is because the events on the show unfold in all sorts of unpredictable ways and because they are making decisions in desperate and dangerous situations, some work out, others don't. It is this drama that makes me love this show.  

 

I will never agree with this insistence that Rick and his people are no different from the villains they encounter. Whatever flaws they have or the darkness that touches them, they are fundamentally good people whose survival I root for. 

Edited March 15, 2016 by SimoneS

[Ohwell]

Look, we all know that Negan is going to be the big bad.  The point many are attempting to make, is Rick's gang is working on second and third hand knowledge, did absolutely no reconnaissance, and involved more fighters than CDB could stand to lose if things went bad.

 

 Also, CDB simply can't afford to go around looking for people to fight; there simply aren't enough of CDB to do that.  Even if they defeat Negan & Co., I'm sure there are other "bad" groups out there.   Will CDB go hunting for those groups too, just because someone else told them that the group was bad?

[Pete Martell]

In comparison, look how suspiciously Rick treated Terminus.  And even with his caution, they almost died.  Look at how suspiciously Grady was treated - Rick ran down and killed a man who was running for his life with his hands handcuffed behind his back.  Look at how suspicious Rick was of Alexandria - he had a full blown breakdown that was only ended by Michonne's fist. 

 

It is within reason that many people are out there using Negan's name to intimidate.  They have no way of knowing if the group they demolished is actually related to Negan, and/or the three stooges that Daryl blew away.  It was relatively easy to get CDB to agree to attack and kill an entire group of people, whilst leaving their own territory in Alexandria with minimal protection.  Yet it seems that none of this was talked through or even considered.

 

And lastly, why are some so insistent that there was absolutely no way that the people we killed were innocent?  Daryl was with the Claimers for a time.  He wasn't tied up when he slept, he wasn't handcuffed.  Did he deserve to die simply because he was with a group of child raping murderers?

 

The man running for his life with handcuffs had just knocked Sasha out, and refused to listen to Rick ordering him to stop.

 

Daryl was with the Claimers for a brief period of time on the road, when he knew little about them other than they said "claim" and sometimes got violent. At the time, until they stumbled onto Rick/Michonne/Carl, the main guy actually seemed to have something of a code of honor.  If Daryl was living with the Claimers in areas stashed full of goods he knew they got from raping and murdering, then I'd say yes, he would have deserved to die. 

 

There would have to be an incredibly complex plot for Jesus and Hilltop to manage to set up an innocent group of people for slaughter. At some point I imagine Rick and the group just trust their instincts.

 Also, CDB simply can't afford to go around looking for people to fight; there simply aren't enough of CDB to do that.  Even if they defeat Negan & Co., I'm sure there are other "bad" groups out there.   Will CDB go hunting for those groups too, just because someone else told them that the group was bad?

 

The main reason CDB went along with it is because they are desperate for food. Negan's group being bad was another reason, but the food was a big part. I imagine if they were supplied, and felt they were safe, they wouldn't go out marauding.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Pete Martell

[Caelicola]

And lastly, why are some so insistent that there was absolutely no way that the people we killed were innocent?  Daryl was with the Claimers for a time.  He wasn't tied up when he slept, he wasn't handcuffed.  Did he deserve to die simply because he was with a group of child raping murderers?

You make a lot of valid points, but to be fair, if the Claimers had had a bunch of pictures of people they clobbered to death taped to a wall like a macabre installment of modern art, Daryl would not have spent a moment more in their company. Were there prisoners or hostages in there? Possibly, but if they were in there they weren't secured in any way, and did not attempt even once to make their presence known. Three people were knifed in their sleep, Abraham then got distracted making eyes at Sasha and the alarm got rung. Two of those people willingly slept in a room decorated with exploded heads. After that, it was gunfire hell, and if I had been a prisoner that would have been the moment when I would have at least tried to escape.

Maybe not prisoners, but non partecipating bystanders? Well, are bystanders to PEOPLE GETTING THEIR HEADS FREAKING DISINTEGRATED all that innocent, in the end? The pictures on the wall were purposely crude, to show us -and the characters- that these people don't only kill people, they revel in absolutely butchering them and taking mementos of it.

 

 

In comparison, look how suspiciously Rick treated Terminus.  And even with his caution, they almost died.  Look at how suspiciously Grady was treated - Rick ran down and killed a man who was running for his life with his hands handcuffed behind his back.  Look at how suspicious Rick was of Alexandria - he had a full blown breakdown that was only ended by Michonne's fist. 

I also think Rick learned (I know, right? Will wonders ever cease?!) from that, mainly one thing: trust Michonne's nose, girl knows what's up. Michonne hated the Governor; she was right. Michonne was suspicious of Terminus before they even got there; she was right. Michonne thought they needed to get off the road; she was right. Michonne trusted the Alexandrians not to be bad people; she was right. Michonne trusts Jesus? She's probably right. Rick was ready to take the supplies by force, Michonne stopped him and said they could wait, he listened to her. She knows.

[Ohwell]

The main reason CDB went along with it is because they are desperate for food. Negan's group being bad was another reason, but the food was a big part. I imagine if they were supplied, and felt they were safe, they wouldn't go out marauding.

Too bad they didn't dispose of Jesus from the get go, then they would have had the food truck.  

[AngelaHunter]

if the Claimers had had a bunch of pictures of people they clobbered to death taped to a wall like a macabre installment of modern art

 

I felt I had been clobbered over the head with those pictures. Can't have even a whisper of ambiguity here, lest we the audience, consisting of dullards and morons don't get it.

 

"See, audience? Do you get it? These people are bad bad bad, each and every one of them. Bad to the bone. PUre EVIL, do you understand? They have no redeeming qualities."

 

*Aside: "Do you think our audience gets it? Do you think we need to make it more obvious?"*

[Caelicola]

Oh, they looove their anvils. My personal favorite was Jessie's death, the LOOK! she's a symbol of hope and innocence and light AND NOW RED! HER FACE IS RED! LIKE HER BLOOD! GET IT?! RICK NOW SEES HER COVERED IN BLOOD! BLOOD!! BLOOOOOOD!!!

 

Gah, what a horrible page opener this comment is.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Caelicola

[Pete Martell]

Too bad they didn't dispose of Jesus from the get go, then they would have had the food truck.  

 

They're getting a lot more than just the one food truck though.