S04.E04: Lights of Winter

[radishcake]

Norman and his new friend have an adventure; Norma experiences her first taste of real happiness in some time during an annual festival in White Pine Bay; Dylan becomes caught between two families.

[Spartan Girl]

I can't believe that stripper made it out alive. That scene with Mother making out with the stripper is officially the most messed up scene on this show. So far.

But that last scene with Norman breaking down in front of the Doctor broke my heart. Remember that moment...it might be the last shred of lucid humanity we'll see in him.

Two weeks until the next new episode?!!!! What the hell?!

[Chaos Theory]

Mother in a strip club. That is everything I never knew I always wanted. Best scene ever.

The last scene with Norman breaking down was heartbreaking.

[Frisson]

I don't know, Spartan Girl. Norma practically making out with Norman a couple of episodes ago to try to keep him from hurting her was pretty messed up. The great thing about this show is there are so many messed up moments to choose from!

[truthaboutluv]

Well guess that answers the theory of Julian not being real. You know you're pretty crazy when batshit Norman keeps looking at you like you're a nutjob, as he kept doing to Julian when they escaped. I'm not surprised Julian had an episode at the club because he was so clearly in a manic state. Kudos to Vera and Freddie for that scene with the stripper - the way the two actors sold it as it interspersed between Norman and "Mother" was really great. 

 

Man sucks for Norma. You can tell that as much as she's trying to resist, she's really feeling like she may have finally found a good one but it's obvious Alex's dealing with Bob and that whole mess is going to come back on him and her by proxy. Meanwhile, it's weird, I loved Alex and Norma's chemistry and relationship in prior seasons and the slow build. But I have to say I'm kind of not loving them as a pairing. Honestly, I'm kind of bored by them to be honest. I'm more interested in when the shit is going to hit the fan with all this money stuff. 

 

When Emma asked Dylan to come to Seattle with her, I swear I could hear the yells of the Dylan fans and Dylan/Emma shippers saying, "run Dylan, run far, far away". Sadly that scene just convinced me that poor Dylan or hell even Emma may not be long for the world. Either way, they're definitely not getting that happy ever after ending. Unless the writers have just decided that they don't really know what do with them anymore and figure it'd be nice for someone to get a happy ending since we all know that's not going to be the case for Norman, Norman and likely Alex. 

 

Speaking of Norman, I felt for him in the end. I do believe he is genuinely confused and doesn't really understand what is wrong with him. Don't get me wrong, he's a total psycho who needs to be locked away so he doesn't kill anyone else but unpopular opinion, I don't believe he is and was always just this monster. I think he's a really, really tragic story.

 

I can't believe that stripper made it out alive.

 

Definitely thought she was a goner when they kept focusing on the ice-pick. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[AlwaysWatching]

My goodness!  They must have told Vera Farmiga  ( or she told herself, being an EP) to go all in on that stripper scene.  Her great acting helped me get over the awkwardness I thought would happen when you realized where the scene was going. 

 

I had just been thinking that the show gets just a tiny bit boring when we don't have any Norma/Norman together time. But Bates Motel knows how to make every episode interesting. Norman breaking down at the end was like a big case of the sad monster. I felt sorry for him, but only a little. I'm also really getting into the "love is in the air" vibe with Norma and the Sheriff,  even though I do realize this is the calm before the storm. 

 

On rewatch:

Dang Vera, your acting never ceases to amaze me. She actually way out-butched Norman with that stripper. 

[thuganomics85]

Norman at a strip club.  Well, it at least ended with less blood then I expected, but it was still pretty insane.  All the shots of it flipping between Norman and the stripper and then "Mother" and the stripper, were perfect.  Vera Farmiga clearly was going all out in those scenes.  And then it all ending with Norman actually having awareness and begging the doctor for help was a nice moment.  Too bad it's destined to not work in the slightest.

 

Oh, Norma.  Still awkward and getting use to being "married" to Romero, but slowly coming around to it.  Too bad Romero is caught in the middle of a shit storm, thanks to Rebecca/former flame being involved in the money laundering with Bob, and Romero himself, killing Bob.  And I'm guessing their house being broken into has something to do with this.  Rebecca clearly seems to know he killed Bob, despite his denials.

 

Emma's dad wants to move her to Seattle, and she wants Dylan to come along.  Do it, Dylan!  Be free!  I mean, sure, if iZombie is to be believed, you might have to deal with the occasional zombie attack and drug dealers played by David Anders, but it is still safer then what will likely happen once Norman goes full-blown "Mother" on everyone.

 

I wonder why there isn't a new episode next week?  It next Monday some kind of holiday or is A&E airing something special?

[Jade Foxx]

 

I don't know, Spartan Girl. Norma practically making out with Norman a couple of episodes ago to try to keep him from hurting her was pretty messed up. The great thing about this show is there are so many messed up moments to choose from!

 

Wasn't there a scene where Norma and Norman slept in bed together, cuddling until dawn?  That would be my vote. lol

 

 

But that last scene with Norman breaking down in front of the Doctor broke my heart. Remember that moment...it might be the last shred of lucid humanity we'll see in him.

 

Agreed, but I just kept thinking to myself -- is this proper protocol? A psych patient escapes the facility, hasn't been taking his meds...and he's allowed to be driven back to Pineview in the doctor's private Mercedes?

 

And if I hadn't seen the previews, I thought Doc was gonna get the screwdriver in the neck FOR SURE!

[Avaleigh]

I've never seen Norma so happy and one of the key differences is that Norman is gone. She has a husband who loves her. Her eldest son is in a good place and she's happy for them. Their relationship is seemingly repaired. Norman is getting help and it's at a place that he's lucky to have been admitted to. She has the time to attend the festival in town and she has the good instincts to put Norman's photo in the drawer. (No doubt this move is going to bite her in the ass with Norman when he comes home but it's healthy in terms of her trying to extract herself from the unhealthy thing she has going with Norman.) She even had a moment where she was going through her wardrobe and was realizing (I think) that she needs to go shopping and live a little. I'm pretty sure that it's all downhill for her from here so I'm happy that she had this episode where things were reasonably good for her.  

 

I thought it was odd that they didn't ask Norman or Julian for ID at the strip club. Norman might have a state issued ID but we know that he doesn't have a driver's license. I wondered if it was some sort of fantasy but then we get confirmation that Julian does exist and has apparently been at the facility for 4 years. (Does that speak well of their track record or does the guy have even more serious issues than he's admitting to?) 

 

I think Julian is going to kill the doctor. At first I thought that it would be Norman but I think there's a reason Julian was introduced. If he isn't an alter ego of Norman's (and I think this episode very much leaned towards him being real) then I think he'll somehow be instrumental in Norman getting out of Pine View.

 

When Emma was talking about how she and Dylan came together and how they just sort of "saw each other one day" I felt like Norma was thinking that her situation with Romero was similar. I think half of the reason she's being positive about Dylan and Emma is because she and Romero are doing well.

 

I can't believe that Romero's ex would trash his house like that. I feel like the writers are reaching here.  

 

Can someone refresh my memory? Does Norman end up with the money that Marion Crane stole? The reason I ask is because I wonder if he ends up with the money that Romero has in addition to the three million his ex mentioned. For some reason I can totally see Norman having a bunch of money and still being cool with living at the hotel and keeping up the facade that his mother is still alive. 

[Spartan Girl]

Regarding the scene with Norma putting Norman's picture in the drawer...did it seem like Norma was kind of writing him off in that moment? I know she's done all she could for him (too little, too late IMO), but he's still her son. Then again, it's a bit inappropriate to have pics of him in her bedroom in the first place. Thoughts?

[BonnieD]

Sidenote - the winter carnival scenes were so pretty. I loved the see-through parasols with the lights, like walking snowflakes. And Norma's coat was perfect for the setting. How does this poor, barely-keeping-things-together mother always have such beautiful, perfect outfits for every occasion LOL.

 

I don't think that was a DEA agent on the phone at all, but one of Parris's associates/enemies, trying to find the whereabouts of the key. Why do people always lie about relationships when questioned? The connections are always revealed. Better to say, "Yeah, I had a fling with this person but she meant nothing to me, why do you ask?"

 

The end scene was beautifully shot with the light shining on the raindrops on the window. Poor, sweet, messed up Norman. You can't help feeling the feelz for him.

[queenanne]

I don't think that was a DEA agent on the phone at all, but one of Parris's associates/enemies, trying to find the whereabouts of the key. Why do people always lie about relationships when questioned? The connections are always revealed. Better to say, "Yeah, I had a fling with this person but she meant nothing to me, why do you ask?"

 

You could be right, but I thought he was shown and in a uniformy-type deal.  

 

On the plus column for your theory, it is curious that we heard from one person, yet we're still waiting for "a law enforcement official" to respond to Norman's plaints.  Was Dr. Edwards lying?

[Snaporaz]

Can someone refresh my memory? Does Norman end up with the money that Marion Crane stole? The reason I ask is because I wonder if he ends up with the money that Romero has in addition to the three million his ex mentioned. For some reason I can totally see Norman having a bunch of money and still being cool with living at the hotel and keeping up the facade that his mother is still alive.

Norman never even knew about Marion's $40,000. He unwittingly put it in her car with the rest of her things (and her body) before sinking the car. "These were crimes of passion, not profit." Edited March 29, 2016 by Snaporaz

[Snaporaz]

Regarding the scene with Norma putting Norman's picture in the drawer...did it seem like Norma was kind of writing him off in that moment? I know she's done all she could for him (too little, too late IMO), but he's still her son. Then again, it's a bit inappropriate to have pics of him in her bedroom in the first place. Thoughts?

I just thought that Norma was reacting to Emma's advice, that Norma had done the right thing by getting Norman help and now she could breathe and focus on herself.

It's sweet that Emma is all about breathing!

[Timetoread]

I was surprised at how "hot" that scene with Norma and the stripper was.  I think that was a master class in acting because it said so much.  It showed the amped up level of eroticism that Norman has both FOR his mother and THROUGH his mother.  He experiences arousal TOWARD her and  AS her with another woman, but when he snaps back to himself and is aroused on his own regard, MOTHER becomes jealous.  Wow, just wow.  I bow to you Kerry, that is all KINDS of messed up, and freakin brilliant!

 

When Emma asked Dylan to come to Seattle with her, I swear I could hear the yells of the Dylan fans and Dylan/Emma shippers saying, "run Dylan, run far, far away".

 

That was me you heard.

[Luckylyn]

It's wonderful to see how the Norma/Dylan relationship has been repaired.  She's genuinely pleased that Dylan is happy with Emma but at the same time it showcases one of the ways Norma's closeness with Norman was a problem.  Norma was never able to be happy about Norman showing romantic interest in anyone even Emma who she really likes.  Is Norman's issues with sex because of Norma's influence and how opposed she was to him growing up to have those sort of feelings or was that always going to be an issue as a byproduct of his mental illness?

 

It's nice to see Norma/Romero so happy, and it's sad that that happiness could only have happened with Norman gone.   That 3 million dollars is going to cause a world of pain to Romero/Norma.  Is the ex the only one who knows about that money?  At this point, he'd be better off anonymously mailing the key to his ex and washing his hands of the whole thing. 

 

Things are going so smoothly for Dylan/Emma that I'm left wondering if this is the writers way of getting them out of the way of danger or if it's just the calm before the storm.  So many things could go wrong for them. There's Emma health which could still go badly, Norman's reaction to his brother dating his ex, the death of Emma's mother, and Chick wanting revenge for what Caleb did to him.  It occurs to me that Caleb referring to himself as Dylan's father instead of Uncle to Chick is eventually how Romero finds out the truth about Dylan's paternity. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by Luckylyn

[Avaleigh]

I realize this is basic cable but I can't help but laugh at how covered up these strippers are. 

[Tech Noir]

I love this show so so much.  BUT.

 

No way in a billion years would those two baby faced teens made it into a strip club without being carded. Are they 21? They are not. Did they even have ID on them at all? It just would NOT happen.

 

The stripper seemed to have hurt feelings that Norman wasn't into her at first. What? Pretty sure the only hurt feelings she should be having are about the total absence of actual cash in the room. Unless stripping is quid pro quo these days.

 

Also! I'm sorry, but the second that screwdriver came out of his pocket she would have been out the door/beaded curtains. That's a weapon! Oh I have no cash but let me just put this effing screwdriver on the table here while you take your bra off. NO RED FLAGS THERE.

 

I enjoyed the rest and Norma/stripper was hot, but the stripper and the club was so unrealistic, I actually thought it was a dream sequence for a while.

 

[truthaboutluv]

Norman did have money. Julian gave him some of his before he went off with the other stripper and I'm pretty sure the stripper who went off with Norman saw when Julian handed him the wad. 

[Avaleigh]

Regarding the scene with Norma putting Norman's picture in the drawer...did it seem like Norma was kind of writing him off in that moment? I know she's done all she could for him (too little, too late IMO), but he's still her son. Then again, it's a bit inappropriate to have pics of him in her bedroom in the first place. Thoughts?

I thought it was one of the healthiest things she's done in a long time. She made Norman her entire world for such a long time instead of also having her own life. Now she's starting to live a little and be happy and I don't think Norman is going to like it. 

 

Norman didn't react well when Dylan moved, he was terribly jealous, and there was no sexual component the way that there is now with Norma and Romero. My only question is how everyone's eyes aren't going to automatically go to Norman after the murders given his history. 

 

I don't actually think it's impossible that Dylan and Emma will live.  

 

I am at least pretty confident that Emma and Dylan will live through the season because I think they're going to be around to witness Norman's full blown descent into madness. 

 

No way in a billion years would those two baby faced teens made it into a strip club without being carded. Are they 21? They are not. Did they even have ID on them at all? It just would NOT happen.

Yeah, I brought up the same point upthread. That's what made me think it was a dream or a hallucination because we know that Norman doesn't even have a license. (Perhaps he has a state issued ID but it would still reveal that he's a teenager.)

 

Also! I'm sorry, but the second that screwdriver came out of his pocket she would have been out the door/beaded curtains. That's a weapon! Oh I have no cash but let me just put this effing screwdriver on the table here while you take your bra off. NO RED FLAGS THERE.

I thought Julian handed Norman cash for the night once they got inside. The cash is another thing that supports Julian being real because where would Norman get that money? Regarding the screwdriver, I thought that was weird too and found myself wondering if those rooms have security cameras because yikes. 

[Timetoread]

Norma was never able to be happy about Norman showing romantic interest in anyone even Emma who she really likes.

 

She was happy but Norman was using Emma to try to make her jealous and Norma told him that he better not hurt that sweet girl.  That was one of my favorite Norma moments because she was defending Emma from her own son.  It was that moment that confirmed for me that the sexualization of their relationship was coming strictly from Norman.  Norma was treating her son like a teddy bear - a baby she wouldn't let grow up.  Norman, however, treated his mother like his woman.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Timetoread

[Chaos Theory]

I have no problem with them being let in one of the less reputable strip clubs. My brother and his friends got into a strip club when they were 17 all they needed was cash in hand.

The screwdriver is another matter. The second a weapon came out so does a bouncer. That being said I let it go for plot purposes. It's a semi minor nitpick.

[Peanut6711]

You could be right, but I thought he was shown and in a uniformy-type deal.  

 

On the plus column for your theory, it is curious that we heard from one person, yet we're still waiting for "a law enforcement official" to respond to Norman's plaints.  Was Dr. Edwards lying?

When Romera got the call from the DEA agent I thought that was going to be about Norman's accusation regarding Norma.  Then I kept thinking all episode he was going to get the call. They sure were slow to move on that. Although Romera now being married to Norma would make him investigating the case unethical. So maybe the state police will come into play.  All for another episode apparently.

 

I love this show so so much.  BUT.

 

No way in a billion years would those two baby faced teens made it into a strip club without being carded. Are they 21? They are not. Did they even have ID on them at all? It just would NOT happen.

 

The stripper seemed to have hurt feelings that Norman wasn't into her at first. What? Pretty sure the only hurt feelings she should be having are about the total absence of actual cash in the room. Unless stripping is quid pro quo these days.

 

Also! I'm sorry, but the second that screwdriver came out of his pocket she would have been out the door/beaded curtains. That's a weapon! Oh I have no cash but let me just put this effing screwdriver on the table here while you take your bra off. NO RED FLAGS THERE.

 

I enjoyed the rest and Norma/stripper was hot, but the stripper and the club was so unrealistic, I actually thought it was a dream sequence for a while.

Julian gave Norman cash though.  For all we know Julian also had fake ids. Or maybe he just flashed money when they came in. Either way it's certainly possible it wasn't a reputable place.  One nod in that direction was how Norman's stripper kept stressing she'd do anything.  Plus she didn't even bat a fake eyelash at that screwdriver. A more reputable strip bar would have limits in place for the protection of the girls. 

[truthaboutluv]

She was happy but Norman was using Emma to try to make her jealous and Norma told him that he better not hurt that sweet girl.

 

That was the third season when Norman attempted to finally date Emma. When Norma first met Emma in Season 1, she gave her a critical once-over, rudely asked her about her life expectancy and basically seemed to accept her when it was clear one, she was likely going to keel over at any time and two, more importantly, Norman was not interested in her because Norma was well aware that Norman was hung up on Bradley at the time.

 

Yeah by the time Norman and Emma attempted dating in Season 3, Emma had been working at the motel long enough for her and Norma to have developed something of their own friendship. And yes Norman tried to use Emma to make Norma jealous in some weird, creepy feelings he had for but that didn't just happen and was always there. Because he was very much into Bradley and even Cody and it had nothing to do with Norma. It's just that by the time he and Emma started dating, he was already full on the path to crazy town, helped in parts by his unhealthy relationship with his mother for years. 

 

It was that moment that confirmed for me that the sexualization of their relationship was coming strictly from Norman.  Norma was treating her son like a teddy bear - a baby she wouldn't let grow up.  Norman, however, treated his mother like his woman.

 

Except Norma treated Bradley like a girl she was competing with in Season 1. She hated her instantly, creepily went around town semi-stalking her and cattily talked to Emma about her and she was a grown woman. And Bradley's only sin then was that Norman liked her. And let's not forget her rage and guilt trip on Norman for being off with Bradley the night she got arrested for murdering Keith. And then there was Season 2 when Norman shut her out and quite literally shut his door in her face and she went off and had a revenge fuck with Michael Vartan's character. 

 

No, I don't think Norma consciously wanted to have sex with Norman but I do think she had little boundaries that allowed something very creepy and unhealthy to manifest between them. And I don't buy that it was just purely seeing him as some baby bear she didn't want to grow up. Back in the first season, there was a scene of Norma changing her shirt in front of Norman. Norman looks away uncomfortably and like he clearly felt that it was inappropriate at his age to see his mom that way. Norma scoffed and made some comment about it not being a big deal. But interestingly that came after Norman started hanging out with Bradley and clearly being interested in her. I remember that it felt like Norma's creepy way of controlling him without entirely crossing any lines. Like he didn't need Bradley because he had her, even when it came to seeing a woman's body. 

 

Again, I get that the writers have certainly done a 180 on Norma in some respects in the later seasons and yeah she's a little funny at times in her kookiness but as someone who has been watching this show since the Pilot, I don't agree that Norma didn't do her part in cultivating that very, very creepy and disturbing relationship with Norman, complete with weird sexual undertones. I do think she was highly inappropriate at times with him and she did cultivate an unhealthy, "us against the world" mentality in him and a very disturbing attachment and co-dependency. And it happened in some formative years of his life that has contributed to his very fucked up view and feelings towards women. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[RCharter]

Shocked that Julian was actually real!

 

Awww....Norma and Romero......and Boo.....crazy ex-gf :(

Edited March 29, 2016 by RCharter

[RCharter]

Well guess that answers the theory of Julian not being real. You know you're pretty crazy when batshit Norman keeps looking at you like you're a nutjob, as he kept doing to Julian when they escaped. I'm not surprised Julian had an episode at the club because he was so clearly in a manic state. Kudos to Vera and Freddie for that scene with the stripper - the way the two actors sold it as it interspersed between Norman and "Mother" was really great. 

 

Speaking of Norman, I felt for him in the end. I do believe he is genuinely confused and doesn't really understand what is wrong with him. Don't get me wrong, he's a total psycho who needs to be locked away so he doesn't kill anyone else but unpopular opinion, I don't believe he is and was always just this monster. I think he's a really, really tragic story.

 

I think that is the beauty of the show is that it has me questioning myself.  I wonder if it was the writers intention for the audience to wonder if Julian was ever real.  I feel like they dropped enough hints about him being imaginary....at the start of the episode almost no one else acknowledged his presence at all.  Even the guard at the door could have just moved away in response to Norman heading towards the stairs since he didn't directly acknowledge Julian either.  It really wasn't until the driver of the car said "you guys have a good time" that anyone really confirmed Julian's existence.

 

I just have to wonder if the writers want the audience to sort of feel like they are on the crazy train with Norman too, or to experience some part of his confusion in figuring out whats real and whats not.

 

Regarding the scene with Norma putting Norman's picture in the drawer...did it seem like Norma was kind of writing him off in that moment? I know she's done all she could for him (too little, too late IMO), but he's still her son. Then again, it's a bit inappropriate to have pics of him in her bedroom in the first place. Thoughts?

I just thought she was taking Emma's advice and at least doing something for herself.  When Norman is in her world, he is all consuming because they are all the other had for so long.  In a way he was the "man of the house" and so Norma did all those semi-wifey duties for him....now she has a new guy to cook for and spend time with.  I suspect she feels super guilty about it, which was part of the reason she pushed Romero away in the first place.

 

There are times, IIRC when Norma would just cook for Norman and take joy out of watching him eat and enjoy the food....and I see her doing the same with Romero....which I think is very sweet.  

[BatmanBeatles]

 

Does that speak well of their track record or does the guy have even more serious issues than he's admitting to?

I think it's the latter. I believe his parents might be afraid of him.

[designing1]

 

I realize this is basic cable but I can't help but laugh at how covered up these strippers are.

 

They looked like they were wearing custom made Dancing with the Stars costumes rather than Frederick's of Hollywood clearance items, which is more what I'd expect at an anything-goes strip club at the edge of nowhere. (And the DWTS dancers are often more naked than these strippers were.) I'm pretty sure the stripper saw the wad of cash but still find it hard to believe she wouldn't hightail it out of there and alert a bouncer the minute the screwdriver made an appearance.

[ari333]

I thought the stripper was toast when that screwdriver came out.

[MaggieG]

Norman made me laugh when he was wearing the feather boa thing.

[maczero]

I love this show so so much.  BUT.

 

No way in a billion years would those two baby faced teens made it into a strip club without being carded. Are they 21? They are not. Did they even have ID on them at all? It just would NOT happen.

 

The stripper seemed to have hurt feelings that Norman wasn't into her at first. What? Pretty sure the only hurt feelings she should be having are about the total absence of actual cash in the room. Unless stripping is quid pro quo these days.

Julian gave Norman cash though.  For all we know Julian also had fake ids. Or maybe he just flashed money when they came in. Either way it's certainly possible it wasn't a reputable place.  One nod in that direction was how Norman's stripper kept stressing she'd do anything.  Plus she didn't even bat a fake eyelash at that screwdriver. A more reputable strip bar would have limits in place for the protection of the girls. 

Actually that stripper seemed to imply that sex goes on in the VIP.  It's been awhile since I've been to a strip club but one of things I do remember was how strict they were on touching the girls.  Even lap dances, you were required to keep your hands off the girls.  Norman (or should I say Mother) is kissing and manhandling her so I'm guessing the club looks the other way on a lot of things.

[Fable]

I get the sense that the doctor didn't report to law enforcement what Norman said about Norma.  For one thing, he said he hadn't heard back from the sheriff (who now incidentally is married to Norman's mother), and I'm sure Romero what have brought it up if he had heard anything.  For another thing, the doctor never asked Norman who he thought his mother had killed.  It seems unlikely someone is going to call the sheriff's department without at least that much information.  What would law enforcement even have to base an investigation on?. 

 

I didn't really think Norman was going to kill that stripper, if only because it was in public place and would have been too easy to have been discovered.   Not that I think Norman, in his state of mind, would have cared.  I just didn't think the show runners would go there, so I had a feeling something was going happen to prevent it before it went that far.

[Chaos Theory]

I would have loved to see the casting call for the stripper roll: "Looking for young female to play stripper. Speaking part. Must be willing to flirt and kiss both Freddie Highmore and Vera Farminga."

[queenanne]

I think that is the beauty of the show is that it has me questioning myself.  I wonder if it was the writers intention for the audience to wonder if Julian was ever real.  I feel like they dropped enough hints about him being imaginary....at the start of the episode almost no one else acknowledged his presence at all.  Even the guard at the door could have just moved away in response to Norman heading towards the stairs since he didn't directly acknowledge Julian either.  It really wasn't until the driver of the car said "you guys have a good time" that anyone really confirmed Julian's existence.

 

I just have to wonder if the writers want the audience to sort of feel like they are on the crazy train with Norman too, or to experience some part of his confusion in figuring out whats real and whats not.

 

I just thought she was taking Emma's advice and at least doing something for herself.  When Norman is in her world, he is all consuming because they are all the other had for so long.  In a way he was the "man of the house" and so Norma did all those semi-wifey duties for him....now she has a new guy to cook for and spend time with.  I suspect she feels super guilty about it, which was part of the reason she pushed Romero away in the first place.

 

There are times, IIRC when Norma would just cook for Norman and take joy out of watching him eat and enjoy the food....and I see her doing the same with Romero....which I think is very sweet.  

 

I think you win, Carlton Cuse on the reappearance of Bradley last season...

 

http://www.designntrend.com/articles/49278/20150429/bates-motel-season-3-spoilers-bradley-real-just-figment-of-norman-imagination-watch-episode-9-promo.htm

 

While fans were thrilled about Bradley's return, they also couldn't help but wonder whether the Bradley Norman saw during the episode was indeed real or was just a figment of his imagination.

 

Series executive producer Carlton Cuse said that the ambiguity of Bradley and Norman's reunion was made on purpose.

 

"The ending of this episode is very much a part of wanting the audience wonder along with Norman, 'Is Bradley real? Is she actually here?' That was very clearly our intention," Cuse told Zap2it.

 

"One of the things that I think works really well on the show is if you're with Norman, he's a sort of unreliable narrator," Cuse added. "It's not always possible to know what is reality and what isn't, and that's what Norman is experiencing. We want the audience to be inside Norman's head at the appropriate times. I think we worked really hard over three seasons of the show to make the audience sympathize with Norman Bates."

 

As for Normero, I find it so sweet that we're clearly (IMO) watching Norma start to enjoy being treated like a cherished and protected love object for perhaps the first time of her life.

 

Aside:  Got to give props to the person last week who wondered if they had really seen Romero hiding his money in the furnace... unless it's supposed to be designed so that he can frizzle it up immediately in the case of a raid, that's pretty dumb, I agree it's probably Chekhov's Furnace.

[KaveDweller]

Julian gave Norman cash though.  For all we know Julian also had fake ids. Or maybe he just flashed money when they came in. 

 

They weren't drinking though, were they? If you are 18 can you not go into a strip club even if you don't drink?

 

I get the sense that the doctor didn't report to law enforcement what Norman said about Norma.  For one thing, he said he hadn't heard back from the sheriff (who now incidentally is married to Norman's mother), and I'm sure Romero what have brought it up if he had heard anything.  For another thing, the doctor never asked Norman who he thought his mother had killed.  It seems unlikely someone is going to call the sheriff's department without at least that much information.  What would law enforcement even have to base an investigation on?. 

 

That could have happened off screen. The last episode ended with Norman saying his mother killed people, I highly doubt the doctor didn't ask any follow up questions. Even if he didn't believe Norman he would ask them. It's kind of a cheat for the writers, but it gave them a more dramatic ending.

[Aquarius]

That was the third season when Norman attempted to finally date Emma. When Norma first met Emma in Season 1, she gave her a critical once-over, rudely asked her about her life expectancy and basically seemed to accept her when it was clear one, she was likely going to keel over at any time and two, more importantly, Norman was not interested in her because Norma was well aware that Norman was hung up on Bradley at the time.

 

Yeah by the time Norman and Emma attempted dating in Season 3, Emma had been working at the motel long enough for her and Norma to have developed something of their own friendship. And yes Norman tried to use Emma to make Norma jealous in some weird, creepy feelings he had for but that didn't just happen and was always there. Because he was very much into Bradley and even Cody and it had nothing to do with Norma. It's just that by the time he and Emma started dating, he was already full on the path to crazy town, helped in parts by his unhealthy relationship with his mother for years. 

 

 

Except Norma treated Bradley like a girl she was competing with in Season 1. She hated her instantly, creepily went around town semi-stalking her and cattily talked to Emma about her and she was a grown woman. And Bradley's only sin then was that Norman liked her. And let's not forget her rage and guilt trip on Norman for being off with Bradley the night she got arrested for murdering Keith. And then there was Season 2 when Norman shut her out and quite literally shut his door in her face and she went off and had a revenge fuck with Michael Vartan's character. 

 

No, I don't think Norma consciously wanted to have sex with Norman but I do think she had little boundaries that allowed something very creepy and unhealthy to manifest between them. And I don't buy that it was just purely seeing him as some baby bear she didn't want to grow up. Back in the first season, there was a scene of Norma changing her shirt in front of Norman. Norman looks away uncomfortably and like he clearly felt that it was inappropriate at his age to see his mom that way. Norma scoffed and made some comment about it not being a big deal. But interestingly that came after Norman started hanging out with Bradley and clearly being interested in her. I remember that it felt like Norma's creepy way of controlling him without entirely crossing any lines. Like he didn't need Bradley because he had her, even when it came to seeing a woman's body. 

 

Again, I get that the writers have certainly done a 180 on Norma in some respects in the later seasons and yeah she's a little funny at times in her kookiness but as someone who has been watching this show since the Pilot, I don't agree that Norma didn't do her part in cultivating that very, very creepy and disturbing relationship with Norman, complete with weird sexual undertones. I do think she was highly inappropriate at times with him and she did cultivate an unhealthy, "us against the world" mentality in him and a very disturbing attachment and co-dependency. And it happened in some formative years of his life that has contributed to his very fucked up view and feelings towards women. 

 

Absolutely agree.  There is some weird sexual overtone to Norma's interaction with Norman.  I think because of her history she has an issue separating emotions and sex.  I wish I could remember exactly what happened, but there was a time that Norman questioned some aspect of his relationship with her - admitted some attraction, I think - and her immediate reaction was to force him to get into the bed with her and put her forehead to his, and tell him that they are animals at their core, and adults, and some form of that chemistry between two adults of the opposite sex was expected.  But it's okay because they don't act on it.

 

No, no, NO - NOT OKAY! 

 

I've always maintained that Norma is engaging in covert incest with Norman.  She's made him into a surrogate lover, in the emotional sense.  It's created a situation that's beyond confusing for Norman.  Not that it caused him to become Psycho, but it certainly contributes to the form that it takes.

[queenanne]

Absolutely agree.  There is some weird sexual overtone to Norma's interaction with Norman.  I think because of her history she has an issue separating emotions and sex.  I wish I could remember exactly what happened, but there was a time that Norman questioned some aspect of his relationship with her - admitted some attraction, I think - and her immediate reaction was to force him to get into the bed with her and put her forehead to his, and tell him that they are animals at their core, and adults, and some form of that chemistry between two adults of the opposite sex was expected.  But it's okay because they don't act on it.

 

No, no, NO - NOT OKAY! 

 

I've always maintained that Norma is engaging in covert incest with Norman.  She's made him into a surrogate lover, in the emotional sense.  It's created a situation that's beyond confusing for Norman.  Not that it caused him to become Psycho, but it certainly contributes to the form that it takes.

 

Well, it's gonna be super interesting when once he gets out of the house, and realizes that he's been supplanted in Norma's bed, won't it?  I mean, I can remember at age 4 or w/e, when the designated favorite "nightmare-stopping" parent I had was working a night shift and I was expecting his presence -  I fell out, and might be clearly remembering the specifics of said tantrum 35+ years later.  Not only is it no longer an option, it'll never be an option, most likely, and Norma will have plenty of opportunities to "move beyond it", but Norman none until it's sprung on him as a fait accompli.

 

(BTW, the first and funniest moment of such sexualization I remember, was in the pilot when Norma/Vera drapes herself like Monroe-esque cheesecake over the hood of her car at the side of the road/rest stop.  I remembered thinking "Wow, that's an oddly inappropriate pose to take in front of your kid.")

Edited March 30, 2016 by queenanne

[Avaleigh]

That was the third season when Norman attempted to finally date Emma. When Norma first met Emma in Season 1, she gave her a critical once-over, rudely asked her about her life expectancy and basically seemed to accept her when it was clear one, she was likely going to keel over at any time and two, more importantly, Norman was not interested in her because Norma was well aware that Norman was hung up on Bradley at the time.

 

Yeah by the time Norman and Emma attempted dating in Season 3, Emma had been working at the motel long enough for she and Norma to have developed something of their own friendship. And yes Norman tried to use Emma to make Norma jealous in some weird, creepy feelings he had for but that didn't just happen and was always there. Because he was very much into Bradley and even Cody and it had nothing to do with Norma. It's just that by the time he and Emma started dating, he was already full on the path to crazy town, helped in parts by his unhealthy relationship with his mother for years. 

 

 

Except Norma treated Bradley like a girl she was competing with in Season 1. She hated her instantly, creepily went around town semi-stalking her and cattily talked to Emma about her and she was a grown woman. And Bradley's only sin then was that Norman liked her. And let's not forget her rage and guilt trip on Norman for being off with Bradley the night she got arrested for murdering Keith. And then there was Season 2 when Norman shut her out and quite literally shut his door in her face and she went off and had a revenge fuck with Michael Vartan's character. 

 

No, I don't think Norma consciously wanted to have sex with Norman but I do think she had little boundaries that allowed something very creepy and unhealthy to manifest between them. And I don't buy that it was just purely seeing him as some baby bear she didn't want to grow up. Back in the first season, there was a scene of Norma changing her shirt in front of Norman. Norman looks away uncomfortable and like he clearly feels that it was inappropriate at his age to see his mom that way. Norma scoffed and made some comment about it not being a big deal. But interestingly that came after Norman started hanging out with Bradley and clearly being interested in her. I remember that it felt like Norma's creepy way of controlling him without entirely crossing any lines. Like he didn't need Bradley because he had her, even when it came to seeing a woman's body. 

 

Again, I get that the writers have certainly done a 180 on Norma in some respects in the later seasons and yeah she's a little funny at times in her kookiness but as someone who has been watching this show since the Pilot, I don't agree that Norma didn't do her part in cultivating that very, very creepy and disturbing relationship with Norman, complete with weird sexual undertones. I do think she was highly inappropriate at times with him and she did cultivate an unhealthy, "us against the world" mentality in him and a very disturbing attachment and co-dependency. And it happened in some formative years of his life that has contributed to his very fucked up view and feelings towards women. 

Absolutely, 100%. 

 

Stressful situation or not, it was Norma's instinct to full on kiss her son on the lips at the end of season 2. She tried the same kissing tactic with him earlier this season. The nice girl Madonna/Whore stuff comes from the messed up ideas that Norma has about women. I'm certainly not putting all of Norman's issues with his sexuality on Norma but she totally contributed.

 

She hated Bradley even though she saw her being nice and sympathetic to Norman. She didn't see any of Bradley's positive qualities she only Bradley as a threat. Her attitude towards Bradley wasn't all that different from that rebellious friend of Norman's. I mention this because Norma at least had a legitimate reason to side eye that friend. With Bradley it seems like Norma disliked her mainly based on the fact that she was pretty and Norman was attracted to her. She treats both of these women as threats. Emma only got her foot in the door because Norma thought she was seriously ill. 

 

It was sweet that she was concerned about Emma's feelings being hurt by Norman when Norman was so obviously trying to make Norma jealous but to me there was another disturbing element to that scene that Norma chose to basically shrug off. She's more concerned about Emma getting her feelings hurt because there's a part of her that understands that Norman is using Emma. She gets that Norman is trying to make her jealous and isn't hugely disturbed by this. This doesn't make her take a harder look at their relationship. She still needs Dylan to tell her that Norman is way too freaking old to share a bed with her. 

 

I feel like the main reason that she's dialed back on her inappropriate behavior with Norman is because Norman is finally starting to scare her and she has a new relationship that makes her feel hope and that her life doesn't have to be all about Norman anymore. 

Edited March 30, 2016 by Avaleigh

[truthaboutluv]

I wish I could remember exactly what happened, but there was a time that Norman questioned some aspect of his relationship with her - admitted some attraction, I think - and her immediate reaction was to force him to get into the bed with her and put her forehead to his, and tell him that they are animals at their core, and adults, and some form of that chemistry between two adults of the opposite sex was expected.  But it's okay because they don't act on it.

 

 

Actually the funny thing about that scene is that at the beginning Norma was not being a weirdo. Norman was freaked out about a fantasy he had about her and she was trying to convince him he wasn't a freak and there wasn't anything wrong with him and that he was just a growing boy with raging hormones. Where she then took it to the left turn was when she then cuddled in the bed with him while telling him he was perfectly normal, complete with stroking his hair. 

[Mabinogia]

Norma herself has some really screwed up views about sex, probably from having a sexual relationship with her brother as a child. I think she doesn't quite know how to separate love from sex. I'm sure she heard a few time "you would if you loved me" and that is kind of all she knows. She is totally inappropriate with her son, but as a child her brother was totally inappropriate with her (and her with him depending on the story you choose to believe).

 

She doesn't have a healthy view on love or sex and has passed that on to Norman. I mean, just look at how often she throws herself at a guy to try to get out of trouble. I loved the scene, when she was trying to get Norman into the posh nuthouse, when the doctor just looked at her awkward flirty and flat out told her he was gay. She had no clue what to do with that, she is so used to using sexuality to get what she wants.

 

I know that she is a good part of the reason Norman is the way he is, but I can't hate her for it because I believe she is every bit as damaged as he is. She never should have had children, but I can see why she would latch on so desperately to one. It is what makes the whole thing even more tragic. She doesn't mean to be harming him so badly but she can't help it. I LOVE the route the show has taken with her. Not making her some belt swinging abuser but a damaged person who can't see the harm she is causing until it is far too late. And it is now far, far, FAR too late.

 

In a lot of ways Dylan was lucky she didn't want him around or he probably would be as screwed up as his brother, more so if the truth of his lineage came out sooner.

[Aquarius]

Actually the funny thing about that scene is that at the beginning Norma was not being a weirdo. Norman was freaked out about a fantasy he had about her and she was trying to convince him he wasn't a freak and there wasn't anything wrong with him and that he was just a growing boy with raging hormones. Where she then took it to the left turn was when she then cuddled in the bed with him while telling him he was perfectly normal, complete with stroking his hair. 

 

Yes, I believe during the entire scene Norma was trying to comfort him and convince him that there's nothing wrong with him, that's the messed up part.  That's her way of doing that.  It speaks volumes of how messed up her sense of boundaries are.

 

When she told him, in essence, it's totally normal to have feelings like that, because we are all animals at our core . . . well, that just kicked open a door in Norman's psyche to the idea that not only are his feeling normal, but she probably feels the same about him.  And as long as they don't act on it, well. . .

 

I don't hate Norma for any of this.  I don't even blame her, necessarily.  She's messed up and needs help herself, no doubt.  And yes, ironically, Dylan's having been rejected by her early on is the best thing that could have happened to him, considering.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Aquarius

[ganesh]

When Emma asked Dylan to come to Seattle with her, I swear I could hear the yells of the Dylan fans and Dylan/Emma shippers saying, "run Dylan, run far, far away".

 

I'm not really a shipper and I was saying it. RUN PLZ!

 

No way in a billion years would those two baby faced teens made it into a strip club without being carded. Are they 21? They are not. Did they even have ID on them at all? It just would NOT happen.

 

Since "Julian runs away a lot," and had a lot of cash on him, I'm going to wank that he knows them there and maybe slipped some cash to the right people regularly. There's no way a bouncer just opens the door for him like "o hai."

 

Still, the entire strip club adventure ended better than I thought it would. 

[backformore]

I may have missed something, but what did Julian do to piss off the guys at the strip club?  

[RCharter]

I may have missed something, but what did Julian do to piss off the guys at the strip club?  

No one said for sure....but I do know that in spite of what a stripper may tell you or imply there is absolutely, positively no sex in the champagne room.......

 

Please refer to this informative video on the subject

 

[queenanne]

Yes, I believe during the entire scene Norma was trying to comfort him and convince him that there's nothing wrong with him, that's the messed up part.  That's her way of doing that.  It speaks volumes of how messed up her sense of boundaries are.

 

When she told him, in essence, it's totally normal to have feelings like that, because we are all animals at our core . . . well, that just kicked open a door in Norman's psyche to the idea that not only are his feeling normal, but she probably feels the same about him.  And as long as they don't act on it, well. . .

 

I don't hate Norma for any of this.  I don't even blame her, necessarily.  She's messed up and needs help herself, no doubt.  And yes, ironically, Dylan's having been rejected by her early on is the best thing that could have happened to him, considering.

 

I agree it's certainly possible.  Aside:  Do we think that Caleb named Dylan "Dylan", after Bob?  Not that it overwhelmingly matters, but I don't see/recall Norma being particularly fond of music, and feel like Caleb tried to entertain Dylan with a guitar at some point.  

 

The literal reason why I wonder is, because that's a different and interesting slant if Norma accepted the name as given by someone else, especially her abuser; and secondly, because you would think the firstborn would be "Norman", if she knew that was a thing she wanted to have happen.  It's got the ring of Lorelai GIlmore naming her daughter "Lorelai" also; except stronger, because it hints that maybe Norma wishes she had more masculine attributes.

[truthaboutluv]

I'm pretty sure Caleb had nothing to do with the raising of Dylan, including naming him. The story was that when Norma realized she was pregnant, she convinced her high school boyfriend to sleep with her and then passed off the baby as his. She figured he would marry her if he knew she was pregnant with his child and he did. More importantly, he provided her a ticket out of town and away from Caleb and her nutty parents.

I think Caleb suspected the baby was his but didn't know for sure because Norma took off and they didn't see each other for years. As for not naming Dylan Norman, well Norma didn't really want the baby and half hated him for the longest time since he was a constant reminder of her brother's abuse and the product of incest. I think the only reason Norma kept the baby was because a way to get her boyfriend to marry her.

Edited March 30, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[ari333]

If Norma's first husband was normal, he probably would've nixed the name Norman, and chosen Dylan.  I think Norman is a creepy name and having his mother be Norma just makes it doubly creepy.  

 

Like Jada and Jayden and Will and Willa? :-)

[FurryFury]

I also doubt Caleb named the child, because he didn't even know Dylan was his. It was either Norma or (most likely) her first husband's decision.

 

By the way, I wonder if we'll ever see him - didn't they divorce? So he should still be alive.

 

Weird episode, the contrast between the two storylines felt a bit too jarring to me. But seeing Norma happy was absolutely heartbreaking. I can't even enjoy Normero being together because of how obvious the anvils are :(

Edited March 30, 2016 by FurryFury

[Rustybones]

I'd like to know who the hell is minding the store?  Or is the Bates Motel closed down?

[Dobian]

So Norman became a lesbian in this episode. That's a new one. I was sure that Julian was imaginary, especially with how he never interacted with anyone but Norman at the facility. But then that driver said goodbye to both of them. I thought it was kind of a lame fakeout by the writers, but whatever. I hope Dylan makes it to Seattle with Emma, but I fear one or both of them aren't leaving.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Dobian