S06.E12: Not Tomorrow Yet

[LadyMustang65]

This episode was amazing.  So tense and so heartbreaking at the same time.  I understand where Morgan is coming from when he asks about talking to them first, but after the Governor and Terminus and the Wolves and those folk at the hospital, our gang has figured out that in this world you don't mess around with people like that.  Darryl's, Abe's and Sasha's run-in with that group made it beyond clear that these are evil, sadistic people who are not to be trusted.  The plan was, as someone else said, elegant in its simplicity.  And it was heartbreaking to see the look on Glenn's face when he killed the first man (how has he not killed a human before?  He was with them through the Governor and Terminus - I didn't realize he had never killed anyone other than walkers before), and I loved him so much for saving his companion from that.  Incredible.  I am saddened and bothered by Carol's apparent loss of bad-ass-itude.  I fear she's becoming soft.  And I was flat-out annoyed by her attitude towards Maggie.  Maggie is pregnant and early days still (so that a large stomach is not affecting her ability to move and fight).  She's not sick.  She's not disabled.  And she's not suddenly become an idiot.  Maggie has proven herself time and time again to be a capable fighter and an asset to the group.  It was her decision, as it should have been, to go on this mission, and she didn't need Carol to babysit her.  Yes, she's going to be a mother, and in true mother fashion, she was doing what she felt she had to to make the world her child would inhabit a better place.  Give her some respect, Carol.  Maggie knows there will come a time when she will be physically unable to contribute, and she wants to do what she can while she can.  Abraham can die.  That was just cold.  Gabriel stepped up - I never hated him as much as many did, but he was never a real favorite.  But he's growing on me these days.  Morgan needs to come to grips with the fact that while life is precious, extreme circumstances like this can forever change some people and cause them to completely lose their humanity.  That's one of the things I love about our group.  They've seen and done some horrible things, but so far for me anyway they have never lost their humanity.  Even Rick, who can seem pretty far gone at times, clearly did not kill in cold blood easily.  You could see he had to force himself to kill - he did what he had to do but he doesn't like it.  He's pragmatic and realistic, but not heartless. 

 

Our family also believe that was just one of possibly many outposts and clearly Negan was not there.  I'm not ready to lose any more of our little group.  I'm hoping all the conjecture is wrong, and we are not about to lose any of our main group.  Well, Abraham can bite it. 

[Eyes High]

Did he really exclaim "WHY ARE DINGLEBERRIES BROWN?!" while walking out on his girlfriend on his way to a murder siege? He's so cartoonish it's impossible to be moved by any storyline featuring him.

 

It was like AMC meets Lil Abner. So weird.

[maystone]

I was wondering if you were trying to quote someone further up the thread with the 'is it really immoral to kill others who want to kill you bit'. It's the exact few sentences from another post so I thought you were trying reply to the quote but ATM it just looks like a post without the quotation box so it's a bit confusing.

 

I was trying to quote. My browser froze (or maybe it was PTV) when I tried to post, so I copied it, refreshed the screen, and then pasted the response. Looks like it dropped all of the formatting when I did that. Thanks for pointing it out. I'll see if I can edit it to make it more clear.

[ghoulina]

Speaking of ridiculous, Abraham. Did he really exclaim "WHY ARE DINGLEBERRIES BROWN?!" while walking out on his girlfriend on his way to a murder siege? He's so cartoonish it's impossible to be moved by any storyline featuring him.

 

Exactly. They've really turned a lot of potential into such an unlikable character. The minute he used dingleberries to relate why he was breaking up with me, I would have realized he just did me a HUGE favor. 

[jsbt]

I think what the crew had to do was awful but it was also necessary. After the Governor, Terminus and that hospital I don't see the alternatives, especially given Negan and the Saviors' introduction into their lives. That's the reality of the world they now live in, where things are breaking down into these feudal cells or communities. I don't think it makes Rick the Governor and I think he's come back a lot saner and healthier from where he was at the end of last season - they made a point of that with the second half of this season and his epiphany. He's dangerous but I don't think he's inherently corrupt, cruel or evil - I think he's a good man. The difference is that he's now learned to pull back and be dangerous when he has to be as opposed to simply when it's easiest.

 

I think most of the minor development Rosita has gotten outside Abraham is in the little B and C-plots they scattered through the last season and a half or so, stuff with Eugene, Tara, etc. I liked her a lot there and I still do, and it feels like they've stretched to develop her (and maybe even Abraham, who I sometimes like and sometimes still deeply dislike) way more than the comic. She's not just a bombshell in short shorts with an AK, and Abraham is a pretty soulful character with stuff going on beneath the surface even when he is a dick.

[Slovenly Muse]

Their plan was sheer elegance in its simplicity.

 

Rick and Co.: Fighting Evil, So You Don't Have To!

[RedheadZombie]

I'm to the point that I don't want any of CDB to die.  But I'm probably least attached to Rosita, so even though I don't wish for her to die, I'd prefer it over someone like Carol, Maggie, or even Tara.  Out of the Alexandrians, Aaron was my favorite, but he irritated me last night.  The ones I'm most rooting for are Denise, followed by Tobin and Heath.  I was rooting for Sasha's IRL hubbie, but he seems to have disappeared.

 

There were anvils of doom landing on Carol, Tara, Rosita, and possibly Glenn, Maggie, and Abe.  Obviously they're not all going to die.  What makes me think it will be Rosita is the ridiculous way Abe dumped her.  I've never thought they were anything other than fuck-buddies.  They've never shown (outside of bed) the affection that even Rick and Michonne have had.  Now we're made to think that Rosita was in love, and was dumped by the cruel and hateful Abe.  To me, this is to give Abe something else to feel tormented about after her death.  He frightened his stupid wife into her stupid decision that left her and her children dead, and now Rosita dies after he's hateful to her. 

I didn't really have a problem with Maggie going on this mission.  After all, she's in a first trimester pregnancy, and she's one of the best and seasoned fighters - who left behind could have taken her place?  But I now see the problem (plot contrivance).  It wasn't Maggie's inability to fight, it was the inability of those around her to not be distracted by concern.  I'm sure CDB is concerned that Carol was captured, but it seems to me that Rick reacted stronger to Maggie being captured.  I understand it, but it pisses me off that Carol isn't quite as precious since her uterus is retired.

 

Exactly you have to take into account everything that the group has experienced and been though, especially Rick, Darryl, Carol etc.

 

All of CDB experienced Terminus (although Carol's experience was unique).  I love Rick, he's in my top three, but he's no longer what I would consider one of the level-headed members.  Daryl will always follow Rick, and Carol is as militant as Rick.  In my opinion, Glenn, Maggie, Michonne, and some of the others weren't crazy about the plan.  I wish they would have a little more input into what goes down.  Sure Rick gave them an opportunity to speak, but who's going to object after the reception that Morgan always receives?  I was really irritated that kind gentle Aaron is suddenly a killing machine who doesn't react to killing.  It didn't ring true to the character, IMO.  But the show had to make sure that Morgan could be singled out as the out of touch peacenik.

 

And while I will always root for CDB over any other group, I don't believe they are the only group in the entire country with good intentions.  I know that the group has experienced enough and suffered enough to become so tough, but I'm tired of their enemies being psychopathic monsters.  They had a five minute experience with Negan's group that showed the audience Negan is probably no good.  But really, I think it's the level of spoiling on Negan that makes the viewer not mind that an entire group of people were murdered in their own home, and even in their sleep.  The threesome that attacked Daryl/Sasha/Abe came off as the three stooges, and were easily killed.  That leaves Jesus and the Hilltoppers as the source of info on Negan. 

 

My point is - If I wasn't spoiled on Negan, I would be really nervous about the coldness and extreme nature of "kill them all".  Now CDB doesn't have the luxury of reading the comic, so I would like to have seen just a little something that shows it's not always so black and white.  Not one person was given a chance to surrender.  I feel like our group should have been given something to make them think.  Maybe they would come upon a child/teenager, or a pregnant woman.  I really thought we would see some friendly fire after Glenn and Heath shot a hundred rounds blindly through the door (not that I would have faulted them).  Instead, the bad guys were absolutely carbon-copy bad guys.  And they were all men.  It's just way too simplified, IMO.  Add to that the pictures of beaten heads, so that it guarantees the audience saying - well it's obvious CDB did the right thing.  Look at those pictures.

 

I know that CDB and the Wolves are as different as night and day.  But how different were their attacks?  They both stormed a group's home and safety, offered no negotiation or chance to surrender, and went in with the intentions of killing 100% of the group. I'm still not completely disagreeing with what they did, I just wish one thing happened to make them think.  Sure Maggie and Carol were caught, but it looks like the show is going to pin the fault on Carol.

 

[slf]

Frankly, I blame Carol. "The pregnant lady shouldn't have been there." Oh screw that. They don't live in a world with maternity leave. Maggie is a capable fighter and they needed everyone (if that attack failed they had every reason to expect retaliation, which Alexandria couldn't withstand). Maggie was there for the perimeter and Carol prevented her from doing her job, and over what? Second-guessing what she's done? Her own personal demons? When this is over Carol needs to get smacked, assuming she's still alive.

[maystone]

And about Tobin/Carol...that night that of the big meeting (in "Conquer") when Deanna was deciding whether Rick should be allowed to stay in Alexandria or not, Tobin stated that "if keeping my family safe means getting rid of...." before he was interrupted. Does that mean that he has/had a wife and kids? Or was he referring to the Alexandrians in general? For some reason, even back when he offered to teach Carol how to shoot I'd thought to myself at the time "Isn't he married?" 

 

Tobin has a son who's Carl's age.  We haven't seen much of him since the episode where Carl first meets the teens of the AZ, but I'm assuming he survived the walker horde. I don't believe that Tobin's married; the only other women I've seen him around are Francine and Natalie (?) - the woman who was in charge of the armory and the food stores. Go for it, Carol! He is a nice guy and probably the closest thing we've seen to an Everyman since the show started. (Well, him and Jim.)

[MV007]

I really don't have a problem with wanting to protect an unborn child.  With that said, its really Maggie and Glenn's choice not Carols so she can eff off.  I've never been a big fan of Carols so I wouldn't be too broken up if we lost her.

[Pete Martell]

All of CDB experienced Terminus (although Carol's experience was unique).  I love Rick, he's in my top three, but he's no longer what I would consider one of the level-headed members.  Daryl will always follow Rick, and Carol is as militant as Rick.  In my opinion, Glenn, Maggie, Michonne, and some of the others weren't crazy about the plan.  I wish they would have a little more input into what goes down.  Sure Rick gave them an opportunity to speak, but who's going to object after the reception that Morgan always receives?  I was really irritated that kind gentle Aaron is suddenly a killing machine who doesn't react to killing.  It didn't ring true to the character, IMO.  But the show had to make sure that Morgan could be singled out as the out of touch peacenik.

 

I thought they did show Aaron react to killing - he was shaken when he stabbed the man and was just numbly repeating what Rick had told them. 

 

Aaron had already killed several people before he ever met the group. I don't think that made it any easier for him, but I think he felt he had to push down his mixed feelings because his naivete with taking the photos with him on scouting missions helped bring slaughter to Alexandria.

 

I think a lot of people had mixed feelings - even Rick himself looked somewhat uneasy before his first kill - but they decided they had no real choice, with such high stakes. 

Tobin has a son who's Carl's age.  We haven't seen much of him since the episode where Carl first meets the teens of the AZ, but I'm assuming he survived the walker horde. I don't believe that Tobin's married; the only other women I've seen him around are Francine and Natalie (?) - the woman who was in charge of the armory and the food stores. Go for it, Carol! He is a nice guy and probably the closest thing we've seen to an Everyman since the show started. (Well, him and Jim.)

 

Olivia?

 

I miss Jim...

[AngelaHunter]

My heart broke for poor Rosita, who has always appeared to be more in love with Abraham than vice versa. Remember the "dolphin-smooth" trip in the church bus?

 

Maybe she thought he was the last man on earth too, well except for Eugene. Same thing. Personally, even if Abe (who apparently thinks he's a catch) were the last male person around - no thanks. I'd take super-stinky Daryl, or anyone, over him.  I can see now why his wife offed herself, rather than spend eternity in isolation with him.

 

Go for it, Carol! He is a nice guy and probably the closest thing we've seen to an Everyman since the show started.

 

I agree!

 

Frankly, I blame Carol. "The pregnant lady shouldn't have been there."

 

I agree with that too.Maggie - no matter her decisions - is a grown woman well past the age of majority and can do as she pleases. If she wants to go on commando raids while pregnant that's the concern of only two people - Maggie and Glenn.

[Pete Martell]

I'm sure CDB is concerned that Carol was captured, but it seems to me that Rick reacted stronger to Maggie being captured.  I understand it, but it pisses me off that Carol isn't quite as precious since her uterus is retired.

 

My point is - If I wasn't spoiled on Negan, I would be really nervous about the coldness and extreme nature of "kill them all".  Now CDB doesn't have the luxury of reading the comic, so I would like to have seen just a little something that shows it's not always so black and white.  Not one person was given a chance to surrender.  I feel like our group should have been given something to make them think.  Maybe they would come upon a child/teenager, or a pregnant woman.  I really thought we would see some friendly fire after Glenn and Heath shot a hundred rounds blindly through the door (not that I would have faulted them).  Instead, the bad guys were absolutely carbon-copy bad guys.  And they were all men.  It's just way too simplified, IMO.  Add to that the pictures of beaten heads, so that it guarantees the audience saying - well it's obvious CDB did the right thing.  Look at those pictures.

 

We barely saw most of Rick's reaction - he just had one at the end. I imagine he would be concerned about them both. I've never felt like he puts Maggie above Carol.

 

I think the reason they didn't put more focus on ambiguity is because they'd already done that with The Governor (pushing the idea that he was just like Rick), and Terminus (having various people look on horrified, showing the flashback to how they'd been brutalized). This time we still saw various moments where several characters were traumatized by what they were doing, and it led to another question - is it somehow good or easier to kill just because you are more justified in doing so? 

 

This is such a clumsy show but for once I thought they got the moral dilemma just right.

[slf]

It's not that she can't defend herself, everyone knows she can and if she wasn't pregnant then she absolutely should be there, she's a lethal weapon. But the fact is that she needs to (and the group need to) protect her unborn child and yes, I understand that this is protecting the child in the long term but if she gets killed in the skirmish it's all for naught. The other factor is that a pregnant woman raises the stakes for the entire group because of the natural human instinct to want to protect a pregnant woman - if you think of any awful news report such as when a woman is murdered, raped, etc, the story is made infinitely worse and the outcry is louder when it is a pregnant woman. So now we have Carol not wanting to leave a pregnant Maggie alone (although I think Carol simply didn't want to go to a slaughter) and now pregnant Maggie is hostage which has given the Saviours a lot of power, nobody wants anything to happen to a pregnant woman. This isn't about equal rights in our world, this is about practicality in the TWD world.

 

I just find this so paternalistic. If they're willing to prioritize her because she's pregnant then they should have stayed home (especially since more than a few of those guys were neither seasoned or reliable). I can go back through episode thread after episode thread without encountering a single criticism of Rick continuing to take his child into dangerous situations (a child that has been shot twice now). Maggie being pregnant is no different. This is the world they live in.

[Ohwell]

So am I the only one who hates the idea of Tobin and Carol?  She finally gets a love interest, and he has all the stunning good looks and vibrant personality of boiled white rice.  And he's STILL a weenie, and admits it.  "I can't do what you do".  Twirp.  Aaron and Heath can man up to go protect their community, and Heath as NEVER killed a person before.  But Weenie Man can't be asked?  He's the type of person that if walkers were to come back, he'd toss Carol in front of himself so that they'd eat her and not him.  He's a weenie.

Looks-wise, I think he and Carol are traveling at about the same speed.  I mean, he's not gorgeous, but neither is she.  I've never gotten any kind of vibrant personality from her either, but that's understandable given the ZA.  However, I'd give kudos to Tobin if he did toss her to the walkers. 

[RedheadZombie]

Something that wasn't 100% clear to me - what exactly did Carol tell Rosita to be quiet about regarding Morgan?  I thought it was that Morgan held the wolf captive, but when they mentioned the people who knew, I thought Denise was excluded.  So then I thought it was the fact that Morgan had knocked Carol out.  Many found Morgan doing that justified, but CDB would most likely side with Carol.

 

Why exactly was Jesus in disguise?  They planned to kill everyone, so why hide him.  I found his disguise a little giggle-worthy, and actually thought he was Maggie at first when he saved Glenn and Heath.  It reminded me of Hershel's time to rob the stagecoach look.

 

Carol's sudden mourning about the bad things she's had to do is too contrived though. They should have prepared for this turn better, but it was still a good showcase episode for Carol, as it was a welcome return to her more vulnerable side. The thing with Tobin came out of nowhere too though. And those actors don't have any chemistry whatsoever. I'd rather see her bond with Morgan. Btw. it looks almost as if even Lennie James is bored by Morgan too.

 

I found it very keeping with Carol's character that she would know how many people she killed, and feel conflicted.  Carol's been conflicted since she killed Karen and David.  The more she pushed away Mika and Lizzie, the more she cared about them - Sam, too.

 

I agree that Carol and Tobin had little chemistry, but maybe he's Carol's Jessie.  Seems to me that Carol and Morgan will end up together.  He's seen through her act from the beginning, and possibly gets her more than any other character.  That used to be Daryl, but it seems that he and Carol are forbidden to share a scene.  What a waste.

 

O/T - Now that the video ads are back, my laptop constantly freezes on this sight.  It's almost impossible to read and post.

Edited March 7, 2016 by RedheadZombie

[BananaRama]

I have no issue with Rick and company killing the Saviors.

 

I've said it before because the Saviors already fucked with Daryl, Abe and Sasha. They said they wouldn't kill them if they gave up their guns, then toyed with them and were going to kill them until Daryl blew them up.

 

IMO that right there is the Saviors making the first strike, showing they cannot be trusted. I'm all for them going on the offensive here.

I agree.

[slf]

Something that wasn't 100% clear to me - what exactly did Carol tell Rosita to be quiet about regarding Morgan?  I thought it was that Morgan held the wolf captive, but when they mentioned the people who knew, I thought Denise was excluded.  So then I thought it was the fact that Morgan had knocked Carol out.  Many found Morgan doing that justified, but CDB would most likely side with Carol.

 

It was about the Wolf. They mentioned Denise because she worked with Morgan to treat that guy. Carol and Rosita don't hold that against Denise though, they probably figure either she was persuaded to do it by Morgan or that her being taken hostage was punishment enough. They know Rick might not respond well to learning Morgan spared several Wolves.

[LadyMustang65]

Agreed. It went down way too fast. They should have spent a few weeks monitoring the place and finding out who comes and goes, and where they go to. That's what the Guv would do. He was watching CDB for awhile, figuring out the logistics and who was in charge, etc. Okay, he still lost in the end. But this was done way too hastily. And then they didn't even fully clear the building, as evidenced by the guy escaping on the bike. 

 

My two cents' worth on that is that I don't think they had a few weeks for reconnaissance.  The 'Saviors' were holding the Hilltop guy and waiting for Gregory's head in order to release the Hilltopper.  I'm thinking the Saviors weren't going to wait too terribly long before they killed the guy just for spite. 

[peach]

Regarding Father Gabriel, I think he's participating in the raid because he feels he owes penance for stabbing CDB in the back.

[Canada]

Oh, what a big shock... Rick's group encounters new people, and then death ensues.  They should come with a warning.

[GreyBunny]

My two cents' worth on that is that I don't think they had a few weeks for reconnaissance.  The 'Saviors' were holding the Hilltop guy and waiting for Gregory's head in order to release the Hilltopper.  I'm thinking the Saviors weren't going to wait too terribly long before they killed the guy just for spite. 

 

True, they might not have had a couple of weeks but they should have taken longer than half a day.  A couple days of surveillance at least and a few scouts checking the nearby area beyond the one road to the compound they were already on.  A team mission for Daryl and Aaron.

 

I'm going to call it - I think Abe, Tara, and Glenn are toast.  I think Glenn saw his future in those photos.

 

As for Maggie, it was her choice.  The only one she needed to have a discussion with is Glenn and even so it was her decision in the end.  If she were feeling morning sickness or whatever she probably would have stayed behind. 

 

Carol should have butted out; her timing with confronting Maggie with something that is none of her damn business was worse than Abe's.  Arguing with Maggie during a commando mission when they should have been paying attention to their surroundings was an idiot mistake that probably got them both captured and now Maggie and Peanut are both in more danger than before.  Way to protect the baby, Carol.

 

Edited March 7, 2016 by GreyBunny

[Eyes High]

Even though I suspected it was coming, the slow pan to Eugene standing, calmly watching the proceedings, chewing his cookie like a cow chewing its cud, wearing his (hilariously ironic under the circumstances) "Virginia is for Lovers" shirt, made me laugh out loud. I guess it could be criticized on the basis of undermining the drama and brutality of Abraham breaking up with Rosita, but I laughed anyway.

 

Personally, even if Abe (who apparently thinks he's a catch) were the last male person around - no thanks. I'd take super-stinky Daryl, or anyone, over him.  I can see now why his wife offed herself, rather than spend eternity in isolation with him.

I'd take Eugene over Abe, and Lord knows I do not say that lightly.

 

Why did Carol wait until they were already in the field, until it was too late to do anything about it, to throw her hissyfit over Maggie being there in the first place? If this was such a big deal to her, she should have brought it up back at Alexandria.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

I think what the crew had to do was awful but it was also necessary. After the Governor, Terminus and that hospital I don't see the alternatives, especially given Negan and the Saviors' introduction into their lives. That's the reality of the world they now live in, where things are breaking down into these feudal cells or communities. I don't think it makes Rick the Governor and I think he's come back a lot saner and healthier from where he was at the end of last season - they made a point of that with the second half of this season and his epiphany. He's dangerous but I don't think he's inherently corrupt, cruel or evil - I think he's a good man. The difference is that he's now learned to pull back and be dangerous when he has to be as opposed to simply when it's easiest.

 

I so agree. Frankly, I don't buy into the idea that the Zombie Apocalypse turns good people into psychopaths. Rick and those people in his group are fundamentally good people. Being good does not mean that you do not experience moral quandaries even when your world is stable or when it falls apart. Being good means that you struggle, make the hard decision, and still hold onto your humanity. Rick and his people have done exactly that time and time again. IMO, only society (laws and other consequences) was holding back people like Shane, Phillip, Joe, Dawn, and Gareth from inflicting their brand of evil on everyone around. The Zombie Apocalypse let them get their freak on.

My two cents' worth on that is that I don't think they had a few weeks for reconnaissance.  The 'Saviors' were holding the Hilltop guy and waiting for Gregory's head in order to release the Hilltopper.  I'm thinking the Saviors weren't going to wait too terribly long before they killed the guy just for spite. 

 

I had forgotten about the guy being held hostage so they only had so much time to act. No wonder they did not do the necessary reconnaissance. 

[peach]

I so agree. Frankly, I don't buy into the idea that the Zombie Apocalypse turns good people into psychopaths. Rick and those people in his group are fundamentally good people. Being good does not mean that you do not experience moral quandaries even when your world is stable or when it falls apart. Being good means that you struggle, make the hard decision, and still hold onto your humanity. Rick and his people have done exactly that time and time again. IMO, only society (laws and other consequences) was holding back people like Shane, Phillip, Joe, Dawn, and Gareth from inflicting their brand of evil on everyone around. The Zombie Apocalypse let them get their freak on.

 

Thank you!  Seriously, even now there are plenty of murdering psychopaths in the world.

[qweenB]

I'm predicting Carol to die next week. I hope not but that's the vibe I'm getting.

The past couple seasons I've been bored to death

[Haleth]

I hope Maggie gets killed so Carol can say "Told you so."

Someone needs to set up a poll re who we think will get killed be the end of this season.

[Ocean Chick]

Carol, like Sasha before her, is suffering from PTSD.  It shows in her timing to argue with both Morgan AND Maggie, as well as in her flirtation with Tobin.  She's desperately trying to get back to "normal", all the while knowing that normal will never be a thing again.  Oh, how much easier it was, being a simple housewife - cooking and cleaning and popping out-of-joint shoulders back into place.  She didn't have to kill people back then, though she probably dreamed of killing Ed once in a while.  We've seen Sasha work through her problems, and now we'll watch Carol work through hers. 

[TattleTeeny]

I thought Carol would suggest that! I wondered if she'd added something to the cookies, until she offered them to everyone else. 

 

I also wanted her to put on her old clothes.

Yeah, they would eat it and some would die, and then when others came back all "what's the big idea?!" Rick, et al, could ambush them!

Edited March 7, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[maplebrew]

They had a five minute experience with Negan's group that showed the audience Negan is probably no good.  But really, I think it's the level of spoiling on Negan that makes the viewer not mind that an entire group of people were murdered in their own home, and even in their sleep.  The threesome that attacked Daryl/Sasha/Abe came off as the three stooges, and were easily killed.  That leaves Jesus and the Hilltoppers as the source of info on Negan.

My point is - If I wasn't spoiled on Negan, I would be really nervous about the coldness and extreme nature of "kill them all".  Now CDB doesn't have the luxury of reading the comic, so I would like to have seen just a little something that shows it's not always so black and white.  Not one person was given a chance to surrender.  I feel like our group should have been given something to make them think.

 

 

So true. I am still concerned though that Rick has too quickly put so much faith in the Hilltop story about the Saviors, even if what Jesus says about them is gospel truth.

[CrashTextDummie]

I felt Carol's motive re: Maggie being there was pretty clearly more complicated than "pregnant women should stay home".

 

And really, the stupid part was not that she was there, but that she was supposed to protect a perimeter by her lonesome. What perimeter? Even with her and Carol together, it basically seemed to be two chicks in the middle of a forest.

[Pete Martell]

I hope Maggie gets killed so Carol can say "Told you so."

Someone needs to set up a poll re who we think will get killed be the end of this season.

 

Given that Carol arguing with her in the woods probably helped alert the Saviors, I'm not sure that would be her reaction.

[Enero]

I had forgotten about the guy being held hostage so they only had so much time to act. No wonder they did not do the necessary reconnaissance.

Yep. And not only that, Negan killed most of the Hilltoppers that went to deliver food, then sent back the one guy with a "message" to Gregory which was swift stab to the gut. So yeah, considering the circumstances they had no time to surveillance etc. They needed to act fairly quickly.

[Caelicola]

I felt Carol's motive re: Maggie being there was pretty clearly more complicated than "pregnant women should stay home".

 

And really, the stupid part was not that she was there, but that she was supposed to protect a perimeter by her lonesome. What perimeter? Even with her and Carol together, it basically seemed to be two chicks in the middle of a forest.

 

Oh yeah, it went way beyond that, but I'm still annoyed that she couldn't just talk to her and went instead to Rick, like Maggie is suddenly incapable of thinking for herself and needs the big strong men to tell her what to do. I get Carol's motivations, I get that she doesn't want anyone else that she loves to have a notebook full of names she can't even bring herself to write out in full, and I really feel for her; I don't like the way she went about it. But bygones, it's a small annoyance, and it rests more on the writers than on Carol the character.

 

As for your second point, you're absolutely right; but as peach pointed out, baby steps, having someone "guard the perimeter" (which does sound more like buzzwords than an actual task) is still a unexpected level of forethought for CDB.

A day may come when they'll craft a real well thought-out plan, but it is not this day.

[peach]

I felt Carol's motive re: Maggie being there was pretty clearly more complicated than "pregnant women should stay home".

 

And really, the stupid part was not that she was there, but that she was supposed to protect a perimeter by her lonesome. What perimeter? Even with her and Carol together, it basically seemed to be two chicks in the middle of a forest

 

And no way to contact anyone.  Seems like they should have had walkie talkies.

[CrashTextDummie]

It's actually bothering me more the more I think about it. The whole Maggie/Carol drama was pure plot contrivance to separate the two from the rest of the group and allow them to be captured.

 

Alas, even a great episode of TWD can't be without fault. I'll just blissfully ignore it upon re-watching.

[ShadowSixx]

I felt Carol's motive re: Maggie being there was pretty clearly more complicated than "pregnant women should stay home".

 

And really, the stupid part was not that she was there, but that she was supposed to protect a perimeter by her lonesome. What perimeter? Even with her and Carol together, it basically seemed to be two chicks in the middle of a forest.

 

I really thought that besides Carol and Maggie, that Tara, Gabriel, and Jesus were going to be watching all together and not be too far away from each other just in case.  The other Hilltop dude who brought the head to the base. They all sat in the car, why? They could have left that guy in the car and been out there in the field on guard having Maggie and Carol's back.

[mandolin]

I don't have time to read to the end - gotta work and pay bills and stuff - so sorry if I repeat some posts.  But here are my unpopular thoughts on the episode:

 

I wondered if they would put Tobin with Carol - as I have always liked Tobin and nobody will scream about age appropriateness.  He seems smart enough to eat and dish back out Carol's variety of snark.  And yet his "fear" shows that unlike Ed, he's not a brute.  He marvels at her strength.  I think a little real lovin is just the medicine Carol needs.

 

While I have grown to hate Morgan, I wasn't incensed by his suggestion to try to talk first and gave him credit for the balls to speak his mind when he was clearly the odd man out.  I think a proper jail is appropriate in a civilized society.  I also agree that it maybe something to consider that in this world not all people who do bad things are bad people. Kill if you must, but it shouldn't be plan A.  His suggestion wasn't bad, but the place that it comes from is.  Morgan still seems disturbed and antisocial.

 

That said, I don't fault this plan.  I think the culpability of the Saviors as a group has already been established.  I had no problem killing them in their sleep because once they wake up, they will be killing somebody else.  The biggest fault I had was that they needed more intel.  They don't even know what Negan looks like.  A looming problem is that I do.  I loves me some JDM and I'm going to have a hard time hating him while I am licking the television screen every time they show him.  Bracing myself...

 

I know I'm alone in this, but I do go to church regularly.  I find a lot of this very insulting in terms of how religious people are portrayed.  Father PP included.  Father PP especially.  A priest is just a man and can be driven to any behavior depending on circumstances and his own issues.  I can buy a priest killing someone to save Judith, for instance.  But something about that priest quoting scripture while holding an AR over a man and then coldly pulling the trigger rubbed me the wrong way.

 

Loved that our rag tag group has become Seal Team 6.  Not just in skill but in how they work with and understand each other.  They all truly have each other's back and fully understand all the angles and any one of them can take point at any time - not wait for the leader to direct them.  I loved that Tara sent the Hilltoppers home so that if things went south, there were still some game pieces left on the board.

 

I know everybody is mad at him but I really think Abe decided the cleanest way to get this breakup over and done with - in a situation where nobody will actually leave town and they are still basically family and will live and fight together - was to get Rosita to straight up hate him.  For her to feel that he is just awful, never loved her that and she doesn't want or need such a man.  I do believe he cares deeply for her, though.

 

Badass Rick is and always will be my favorite Rick.  I am scaring myself because when Jesus said that the nose was all wrong, I said aloud, "Break the nose", and then Rick did that.   Yeah, when you see eye to eye with Rick Grimes, it cannot be a good sign. 

Enjoyed your whole post. I also am a regular church-goer, so you aren't alone. ;) I think the show did well with Hershel's faith back in the day. It's scary having that represented by "Hollywood." I don't feel as strongly negatively as you do about how they are portraying FPP. I don't necessarily think they've made him weak because he's a priest, but he's just weak period. I thought (though I need to re-watch), that he was quoting Scripture to comfort himself. He knew what had to be done, and he didn't like it, but he was trying to hold onto what was important to him (even though he had made bad decisions before) in the midst of purposefully doing what he surely considers sin.

 

I also liked Carol and Tobin. I thought from the first time he offered to help her learn to shoot, the show would eventually do something with them. 

 

I dislike Morgan. I do. I don't want to, but how can I not? However, I am very sad for him. I loved him in the pilot and in Clear. He has had a rough time. He blames himself, and for most of it, he was alone. His wife was dead from almost the beginning. He has had a really bad apocalypse, and he only had the stupid cheesemaker to commiserate with him. He deserves better, but that's how this world works. I am sad for him, and for Duane, and his horribly acting zombie wife.

 

I think Rosita will be fine; Abe was an ass, but what he said wasn't wrong.

[phoenix780]

The lack of friendly fire- they're really good at avoiding that.

I don't think Tara dies because I can't imagine watching her special run, so it wouldn't be shown. I figure Denise is toast. They have a real doctor in the other town. They're out of red shirts, though, so it'll get brutal however it plays out.

How do y'all remember so much? I honestly have no recollection of Tobin. At all. Maybe I've missed or forgotten all the best bits.

[Raven1707]

Well, that was tense. I kind of thought when Glenn and Heath were shooting through the door, we'd see ol' Abe on the other side. Or maybe I was just hoping. Hey, Rosita, darling - you can't expect to keep a man like that all to yourself. Just think how many other women he could make happy with his special charms. Don't be selfish.

 

I'm going to take a wild guess that I could count the number of women lining up for Abraham's "charms" on one hand, with a thumb and four fingers left over.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Raven1707

[mornnoch]

I loved how Tara reacted in the church to Rick's "We have to kill them all". Exactly what the governor said. She was in this situation before and couldn't handle it. Now she stays in the background but is willing to do whatever has to be done.

[TexasChic]

Question about Carol's kill count ledger...

I see:

R

K, D

L

Terminus/Courtyard 3 ?

Candle Woman 4

---

I can guess the K, D is Karen and David, the L is Lizzie, and Terminus is Terminus. What is the first R, and what appears to be "Candle Woman"?

Edit: I lost the quote, but someone said the R was Mika and Lizzie's dad.

Edited March 8, 2016 by TexasChic

[Caelicola]

Question about Carol's kill count ledger...

I see:

R

K, D

L

Terminus/Courtyard 3 ?

Candle Woman 4

---

I can guess the K, D is Karen and David, the L is Lizzie, and Terminus is Terminus. What is the first R, and what appears to be "Candle Woman"?

I think R is for Lizzie and Mika's dad, who I'm told was named Ryan, and Candle Woman is for Terminus Mary, whose name she never had occasion to learn and who she killed in the room of candles. I don't know why the 4, though.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Caelicola

[TexasChic]

Thank you Caelicola!

[catrox14]

I said last season that Rick had become the Governor, and I feel that even more now.  I can see that he's doing what he feels needs to be done, but it makes me like him even less than last season.  He is the Governor now.    

 

 

When Rick starts keeping his zombie child on a chain and keeps heads in aquariums and doesn't include the entire group in a big decision like this raid or sets up Gladiator battles between Walkers and humans, we can talk about Rick being the Governor. But until such time, I reject this notion 100%.

Edited March 8, 2016 by catrox14

[uoflfan]

In Father Gabriel's defense, he did quote some nice scripture before busting a cap in the guy's head. I love Seth Gilliam and he was perfect last night. FG may need to go with shorter Bible readings in the future, however. I'd recommend some Old Testament quotes, maybe "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord". POW.

[ShadowSixx]

I don't see Rick being like the Governor, he's more like Shane than he is the Governor.

[catrox14]

In Father Gabriel's defense, he did quote some nice scripture before busting a cap in the guy's head. I love Seth Gilliam and he was perfect last night. FG may need to go with shorter Bible readings in the future, however. I'd recommend some Old Testament quotes, maybe "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord". POW.

 

If it's good enough for Jules Winnfield!

[Ohwell]

I couldn't help wondering of some of the Alexandrians were scared to eat those damn cookies.  They don't even know Carol's history, yet they looked kind of wary, like they could sense something off about her.

When Rick starts keeping his zombie child on a chain and keeps heads in aquariums and doesn't include the entire group in a big decision like this raid or sets up Gladiator battles between Walkers and humans, we can talk about Rick being the Governor. But until such time, I reject this notion 100%.

Well go ahead then.  I wrote what I wrote.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Ohwell

[TexasChic]

Rewatching...

Carol seems to be actually defending Mogan to Rosita. "He doesn't want to kill."

Glen and Heath discussing being lucky to have never had to kill before, admitting to being nervous about it.

Rick: "They don't know who we are. Keep Jesus in the shadows. This is how we eat, this is how we eat."

Carol telling Rick Maggie shouldn't be out there. She'll stay with her. Rick argues but eventually says, "Okay". Carol: "Good".

Head stabbing, head stabbing, gross pictures of smashed heads showing these dudes deserve to die, Tara tells padre and Jesus about her girlfriend, and somewhere apparently there's a weed room. FPP goes all Samuel L Jackson.

Everyone thinks they're done because they're stupid. Morgan welds stuff. Bad chick says "Lower your guns Rick. We have a Maggie and a Carol, BITCHES!!!!"

Dun, dun DUN!!!!

Edited March 8, 2016 by TexasChic