S02.E10: Hollywood Ending

[Cthulhudrew]

Did Jack Thompson just become Schrodinger's Cat?

[Guest]

This season definitely didn't capture me as much as the first.

 

The characters were the only thing that saved this season for me. 

 

I thought the actual plot took a really bad turn very early on.  The early episodes with the lady in the lake and the transmittable freezing had potential.  Whitney, (mad) scientist movie star, had a lot of potential.  But they didn't use it.  Instead they introduced Zero Matter and had it make Wilkes non corporeal and Whitney lose all agency.  She was completely uninteresting as a villain because she was basically a tool of the Zero Matter.  And if that wasn't 'true' then the show failed to get that across to me.

[EyewatchTV211]

I'd like to know what they were thinking with the anti-climatic confrontation with Whitney.  Seriously, after slowly chasing them out of a building, Whitney spends half of the episode writing equations in her room before getting lured to the movie studio and depowered one, two, three.  That's how you have your main villain defeated?  That's how you resolve the zero energy storyline?  Did they just say **** it when it came to right this resolution and decide to resolve it in the quickest and easiest way imaginable?  That resolution really reflects badly on the writing staff and showrunners there.

I can see people being disappointed that the finale didn't include Peggy kicking ass all over the place and tons of action, but I think the take down was appropriate to the villain. You weren't going to beat Whitney Frost by fighting her when she had the zero matter in her, and without the zero matter she isn't any sort of trained fighter (unless she happened to have training for a movie character she played). Her thing was smarts, and she had to be beaten with smarts. The team was able to work together and create a plan and figure out/steal/adapt highly technical scientific information. Last season, the psychiatrist guy was similarly taken down by targeting his signature move - Sousa wore ear plugs to prevent the hypnosis, pretended to be hypnotized, and was able to easily knock him out. Dottie's thing IS crazy ass fighting, so you needed to take her down that way. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with stopping someone by using intelligence. I never really got into the show, but I've heard fans of Doctor Who talk about how they like that he beats the bad guys with his intelligence, not with fighting or violence usually. If I watched this show only for the action, I would have been more disappointed. However, I found there were many different aspects to enjoy. I love Peggy beating people up, but it isn't the only thing.

 

I think the overarching story for this season may have been slightly weaker than the first, but I still found each episode to be excellent and highly enjoyable. I was able to get caught up in the episodes every week and come away happy, and that doesn't happen with that many shows. I will be highly disappointed if it does not come back in some way, and I am very disappointed that it wasn't better promoted and that more people weren't watching.

[snarktini]

Did Jack Thompson just become Schrodinger's Cat?

 

Schrödinger's Squint

[stealinghome]

I think I like Howard better than Tony... which is odd because they're so much alike that Tony could easily be a clone.

Oh, I like Howard WAY more than I like Tony. Howard's far less self-righteous and he doesn't have self-destructive tantrums that also endanger others. He's a better team player than Tony and I don't want to say he's less narcissistic, but I don't find his constant egocentrism as grating/OTT as Tony's. Plus, I think because of the war, there's a groundedness or maturity to Howard that Tony doesn't have.

[MisterGlass]

 

Plus, I think because of the war, there's a groundedness or maturity to Howard that Tony doesn't have.

 

I think it's because it's so clear that Howard worked for everything he's got.  Tony has a strong sense of entitlement, though he's grown up a lot in the course of the movies.

[xqueenfrostine]

I think it's because it's so clear that Howard worked for everything he's got.  Tony has a strong sense of entitlement, though he's grown up a lot in the course of the movies.

 

I completely agree.  Howard grew up poor, so he knows what it's like to be "the little guy" and I think that shows in the way he perceives and interact with other people.  I mean he clearly has a giant ego and thinks he's amazing, but you don't get the sense that his inflated sense of self comes at the expense of what he thinks about other people.  And I think that makes him less smug and less smarmy than Tony.   Tony was born to tremendous wealth and was surrounded by people who knew he'd be handed the reins of Stark Industries one day.  That kind of environment doesn't breed humility.  

[paigow]

Note to Recapper: Steve Rogers did not save New York by crashing into Antarctica......

[Bec]

One of the big missteps if they wanted Peggy and Sousa to be endgame was setting it up with love triangles/polygons. They should have just focused on developing the two of them instead of sticking in some throwaway relationships to “get in the way”. There was so much manufactured drama with “who will she choo-choo-choose?” and then Sousa sort of winning by default because he didn’t hold a gun on Peggy, I stopped caring before they even got together.

 

Why do writers insist on putting love triangles in romantic subplots? Seeing a couple get together can be nice. However, I would imagine for most people, nothing kills romance faster than having a third person in the mix (or fourth, or fifth, and so on). Unless you’re into the whole sister-wives thing (or other poly arrangements).

 

Anyway… I was pretty amused how Thompson did the task of taking the lunch orders so happily. Yes I will take your lunch orders! *big smile*

 

Also amusing: his little “wasn’t me” *shrug* when the waste management facility blew up before he pressed the button. Though I was getting impatient with him being all “you wouldn’t shoot me” to Peggy - less talking more blowing! (Okay, that came out sounding kind of gross. Hee!)

 

I like the frenemies dynamic between him and Peggy.

 

Thompson hasn’t checked out yet, someone who works at the hotel is going to come kick him out of the room any minute and get a nasty surprise.

 

I think he was shot a little too far to the right for the bullet to have hit him in the heart, so he might still be alive. Yep, this is me getting into “those entrails couldn’t have been his” level of analysis. I didn’t even know that I cared this much.

 

Started off thinking he was a jackass, but he really grew on me this season.

 

Come on, we’re getting season 3. If crappy Agents of SHIELD can stay, this can get at least 10 more episodes.

[Julia]

Note to Recapper: Steve Rogers did not save New York by crashing into Antarctica......

Yeah, he kinda did. The plane was on its way to New York to blow up, and it was the only way to stop it Steve had time for.

[benteen]

I like the actress who played Sousa's fiancé but yeah, that was a ridiculous subplot that went absolutely nowhere and was a poorly thrown-up roadblock by the show.

[Sandman]

Howard? Mature? I ... don't think so.

[Anthea]

Oh I agree, the triangle/quadrangle was unecessary, it rarely does any favours to characters (I always say that it takes away from them instead of giving them something); there are tons of ways to build a relationship without using it. But well, it happened so we have to deal with it. I give kudos to the writers for a thing: Violet was gracious and had self worth enough to walk away from something in which she was second best. And they didn't turn her into someone evil or jealous. I also think Daniel was genuinely attached to her, he loved her, but he also loved Peggy more, and what can you do about it?

Same goes for Jason Wilkes. I think he had an interesting character arc and he could have fit the story without having any romance with Peggy. Peggy & Co would have helped him anyway, because he was an intelligent and innocent man, victim of the Zero Matter. I was absolutely delighted that he freed himself from the ZM and that Howard Stark saw his value and hired him.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Anthea

[Kip]

In the increasingly unlikely event of a third season I would like them to make better use of their setting in the Marvel universe. Make use of a golden age super hero (Like the android Human Torch). Show the founding of SHIELD. How about we see some of those paperclip scientists. Bring Angie to Hollywood, she really should have been in this season. More Mr. and Mrs. Jarvis (they should totally be Thin manning every adventure). Would be nice if we can get Stark to stick around during the season. Finally, I would also want at least an episode of Peggy and Dottie doing Midnight run.

[Trini]

 

Note to Recapper: Steve Rogers did not save New York by crashing into Antarctica......

Yeah, he kinda did. The plane was on its way to New York to blow up, and it was the only way to stop it Steve had time for.

Steve crashed in the Arctic.

[bosawks]

Started off thinking he was a jackass, but he really grew on me this season.

 

Me too, he ended up being such a fun jackass that I refuse to believe Thompson could be dead.

Edited March 4, 2016 by bosawks

[Leia1979]

I finally got a chance to watch! This finale definitely wasn't as big or grand as last year's finale, but I think that may stem from the writers working on the assumption that this was a one-off miniseries last year, while this year we're open to a possible season three. I do wish we could have somehow tied to the very end scene from last season (with Dr. Zola). 

 

I did turn into a Peggy-Sousa shipper this season, which I was surprised by. I thought Sousa was nice but bland last season, but I think he got a chance to show a bit more personality this season. I do wonder if his immediate attempt at self-sacrifice was meant to parallel Steve Rogers throwing himself on a grenade in Captain America. I also liked that Sousa pointed out Peggy's double standard regarding self-sacrifice.

 

Thompson's fate was surprising--whether he stays dead or not, I wasn't expecting the (attempted or actual) execution. I have to laugh at his phone conversation about Peggy taking more vacation. But really, how is that going to work? It's not like Peggy can work for Sousa unless we have a third season where they attempt to hide their relationship. I guess Howard Stark had better hurry up with S.H.I.E.L.D.

[MisterGlass]

 

Howard? Mature? I ... don't think so.

 

Compared to Peggy? No.  Compared to Tony? Yes.  I grant you it's a low bar.  Very low.  Three inches above the floor.

[bosawks]

Compared to Peggy? No.  Compared to Tony? Yes.  I grant you it's a low bar.  Very low.  Three inches above the floor.

 

And a sub-floor at that...

[FurryFury]

Haven't seen the last two episodes. I was really really disappointed with this season (other than Whitney Frost who's awesome and Dottie who's also awesome), and the Peggy/Sousa forced romance with the kiss and everything makes me want to skip them. (Jack's death isn't something I'm particularly looking forward to either - I didn't hate him). So... is there enough Howard in the finale? Because as much as I love Jarvis, he's just not enough for me to overcome the horridness that is Peggy/Sousa. Maybe it's just better to pretend that the show ended with s1, because it was sheer perfection from start to finish.

Edited March 5, 2016 by FurryFury

[Zuleikha]

I am going to be on a lonely island of one probably, but I think it's worth seeing at least the penultimate episode for Thompson. He's surprisingly awesome in it. I ended up this season in the weird position of disliking Peggy quite a bit and really liking Thompson. I don't believe he's killed at the end; the writers are interviewing very specifically about how they showed him shot rather than killed.

 

There is a good amount of Howard in the finale episode, and he's fairly awesome. I think it's worth finishing up, although I agree the Peggy/Sousa was both not good and very unnecessary.

[Raja]

I am going to be on a lonely island of one probably, but I think it's worth seeing at least the penultimate episode for Thompson. He's surprisingly awesome in it. I ended up this season in the weird position of disliking Peggy quite a bit and really liking Thompson. I don't believe he's killed at the end; the writers are interviewing very specifically about how they showed him shot rather than killed.

 

There is a good amount of Howard in the finale episode, and he's fairly awesome. I think it's worth finishing up, although I agree the Peggy/Sousa was both not good and very unnecessary.

Not one but I see no need to fight the general opinion of this specific site. If it is Howard Stark you want to see then this is the episode of the second season to watch.

[justjoan]

Re: Howard compared with Tony- On a Doylist level, Howard benefits by being a supporting character with little room for deeper character work. Adding up all of his various appearances, young and old, does he have even an hour of screen time? We're getting a highlight package. And on a Watsonian level, Howard benefits by not having been raised by Howard.

[catrice2]

I think it should be renewed. It is different.  I personally like Peggy and Thompson's dynamic a lot more than I do with Sousa.  I actually think he dragged down the action a bit.  I would like to see the scientist continue to work with Stark.  Not sure if they mentioned what he would be doing.  I thought the mobster's love for Whitney was endearing and a shame that she ended up so crazy that she could not appreciate it. 

 

Did they explain fully how he and Stark knew each other?  This is certainly not the worst thing on television! 

 

I am hoping it is renewed and Thompson is not dead.  I'd hate to see a whole season of trying to figure out who killed him.  Maybe the actor did not want to return?

[Olivia Y]

Is it weird to say that I really love (most of) the characters on this show but didn't really like the season as a whole? There were good moments here and there, but the overarching story was just...meh.

I was especially disappointed that they introduced not one but two love triangles of the most cliched variety, without either one being that convincing.

Also, why do so many people automatically assume Jack Thompson got killed off? If that's what they wanted to convey surely it would've been more obvious - like Matthew Crawley's last shot on Downton Abbey - whereas the stinger was obviously set up to be ambiguous. It doesn't make sense from a storytelling point of view to off a character you've spent so much time giving development to, although perhaps it gives them an out in case they can't afford the actor next season.

[romantic idiot]

I thought it was a clever cliffhanger, myself. If the series is cancelled, it is done so with Thompson's life in balance which aren't that high stakes, IMO - of the main (or supporting cast) he's the only gray character left. If they don't get renewed, it is only Thompson after all. 

 

Similarly Peggy / Sousa. It's only a kiss for the detractors of the pairing - and it's a hot kiss for the shippers. It still leaves them open to go either way if the next season occurs. 

 

I have to say I loved this season. The tone was different but it worked for me because it made logical sense for Peggy to have to fight less with these particular people. I liked Sousa getting more to do because Enver to me was criminally underused in the last season. An interesting villain in Whitney Frost (and her destruction of the 'council' was hilarious). All in all a lovely show. 

[Julia]

I wasn't as in love with Whitney's characterization -she struck me as more Gloria Swanson in Sunset Boulevard than Hedy Lamarr, at least at the end - but the actor acted the hell out of it.

I've been thinking about it, and I think whoever above said that Whitney was screwed because she met her mother's dream man, someone who genuinely cared about his illusion of her and wanted to keep her like a pampered pet, was dead on. How horribly sad that the husband who took credit for her work and tried to kill her was the one she clung to in her madness because he at least wanted to use her mind.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Julia

[FurryFury]

So, I did decide to watch the 2 final episodes, and I didn't regret it. There was way less Sousa than I had feared, knowing about the hook-up. But there were lots of fun things, some of which I seriously didn't expect.

 

Like, say, Thompson. This is probably the most I've ever liked Thompson - he actually felt like a full-fledged character. I never really hated his jerkish behaviour (it wasn't that jerkish for me anyway), but one of the things I was disappointed by in s2 was basically making him recurring and barely involved. And also Vernon's puppet, and I didn't really care about Vernon at all. So, these two eps redeemed Thompson in my view and I can safely say I would enjoy watching him in the future (in the unlikely event the show's not going to be canceled and he survives). Also, I want to believe that Michael Carter (jeez, it's so obvious) is connected to Hydra, because why not? Maybe he's an early version of the Winter Soldier. Could be so cool.

 

I'm also glad that Wilkes got redeemed. I was very put off by his sudden and out of character turn in ep 8 - not that I liked him that much, but it wasn't set up really well (and the romance with Peggy was absolutely unneeded), so I was glad he got a good ending.

 

I really enjoyed Ken Marino as Joseph. I've always liked this actor, and really, he was born to play sleazy mafiosos. In his first episodes, he felt like a plot device to give Whitney some muscle, but he really shined in the finale. Hell, I bought Joseph/Whitney more than Peggy/Sousa, and the last one has had two seasons. (God, why does Sousa have to be such a personality-free character? Hell, I'd take Peggy/Thompson over them any day. I'd take Peggy/Dottie! And I won't even speak about Peggy/Steve, even if I'm actually not such a huge fan of Steve. Any of these relationships are more interesting than Peggy/wet blanket).

 

Always great  to see Howard. Too little Howard/Peggy friendship, though (did love the "not thinking any unsavory thoughts" bit - yes, a part of me still ships them in a "what could have been in another world" way). Some great Howard/Jarvis, though. God, I love Howard. Way more than Tony, although I do love Tony too (especially written by Joss Whedon).

 

As much as i dislike Peggy/Sousa, I do think that the whole "Peggy done with losing her loved ones" thing was set up pretty well and made a lot of sense. I just wish it was anybody else but him. I mean, her friendships are so awesome and interesting - why should her love life be so generic?

 

I was really disappointed by Whitney Frost, sadly. She basically lost her personality and agenda in the finale and got controlled by the zero matter. Yeah, it was her goal, but it just didn't work without an actual exploration of the zero matter (remember the "voice" bit earlier? Why wasn't it developed?) I mean, I tend to watch TV for characters and relationships (and dialogues) first and foremost. Doesn't mean I don't care about logic and mythology, too. As for her ultimate fate... Holy shit. Heartbreaking. I think the actress did great with her material, though. It did touch me Joseph still loved her.

 

Jarvis begging Peggy to stay felt almost romantic, and I'm saying as a person who really loves Jarvis and his wife. Great chemistry between the actors, though. Absolutely great.

Edited March 6, 2016 by FurryFury

[xqueenfrostine]

Did they explain fully how he and Stark knew each other?  This is certainly not the worst thing on television! 

 

I thought it was implied that Manfredi and Howard grew up together or least were from the same neighborhood in New York.

[Perfect Xero]

Compared to Peggy? No.  Compared to Tony? Yes.  I grant you it's a low bar.  Very low.  Three inches above the floor.

 

I don't really agree, in part because I think that being around Peggy and having a mission to focus on brings out the best in Howard, so the Howard we see on the show is probably more mature than Howard is the rest of the time.

 

Howard, circa Agent Carter, is a 30 year old man who seems to put most of his genius and fortune toward things like collecting exotic animals, making movies, and hooking up with as many women as possible.

 

Tony, circa the current MCU is in his mid 40s, is happily married, and dedicates most of his wealth and genius toward trying to make the world a better place.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Perfect Xero

[FurryFury]

I feel like Howard really benefits from a) being a supporting recurring character and b) having a strong platonic connection to Peggy. Tony was the lead when he appeared and he didn't really have any friendships aside from maybe Rhodey whom I personally don't care for much. Personally, I'm not a big fan of most of MCU male characters, so it's their relationships with females (like Howard/Peggy, Steve/Natasha, Clint/Natasha, Steve/Peggy... yeah I notice a trend, I love Peggy and Nat) that make me care. 

[Olivia Y]

I feel like part of the reason the Whitney Frost takedown felt so anti-climactic is that there was really no point where it seemed like their final plan wasn't going to work out. The device malfunctioned /after/ she was already defeated so all the danger came from the black hole itself, after she was sidelined. In last season's finale there was an element of danger in their final encounters with the enemy (Peggy vs Dottie was pretty evenly matched, Howard flying a toxic-laden plane into a crowd, Sousa appearing as if he might shoot Thompson), whereas here Whitney Frost never actually does anything in the final showdown. So while we've seen how dangerous she can be in previous episodes, it never really builds up to be this all-powerful threat it was set up to be.

[snarktini]

I have an ex-bf named Louis Joseph Manfredi. Every time Joseph Manfredi was on screen I thought of my ex. Except Ken Marino is a lot more compelling. :)

 

I liked them as an evil couple. Too bad she went cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

[MisterGlass]

I don't really agree, in part because I think that being around Peggy and having a mission to focus on brings out the best in Howard, so the Howard we see on the show is probably more mature than Howard is the rest of the time.

 

Howard, circa Agent Carter, is a 30 year old man who seems to put most of his genius and fortune toward things like collecting exotic animals, making movies, and hooking up with as many women as possible.

 

Tony, circa the current MCU is in his mid 40s, is happily married, and dedicates most of his wealth and genius toward trying to make the world a better place.

 

Fair.  Howard now is probably analogous to Tony in Iron Man 2.  Howard seems to have made a real contribution to the allied effort in World War II by this point, and continues to work as an (inconsistent) inventor and entrepreneur.  Both Howard and Tony have a tendency to be their own worst enemy through a combination of pride and stubbornness. 

[tennisgurl]

I really loved the swelling of the music when Peggy went in for the big kiss with Sousa. It felt very 1940s old Hollywood. 

 

I actually hope Thompson survives. Amazingly, the big lug has grown on me a lot. I like what they did with him this season, and I think there is still more he could do in the story, if we are blessed with a third season. 

[KaleyFirefly]

I really hope there will be another season. I love this show! 

 

I liked Peggy with Sousa, but I think she really has the best chemistry with Jarvis, although I would never want to see that as romantic. I just love that she and Jarvis have a true friendship and partnership.

[AudienceofOne]

I thought this was a fantastic end to a fantastic season. I loved every minute of it. Of course I did binge watch it and that considerably changes your perception of things but I enjoyed every episode from beginning to end.

 

I particularly liked what they did with Thompson and couldn't believe how much I was enjoying him in this episode - and then he was shot so I realised his 'redemption' was deliberate to make me care about his fate. Which I do.

 

I shipped Peggy and Sousa (I didn't last season but then last season I don't think I was supposed to) and I was glad to see them together. I liked that Wilkes bowed out gracefully and took responsibility for his actions rather than taking the easy 'Zero Matter made me do it' option.

[AudienceofOne]

Loved that very exuberant kiss at the end.  I can't help but think that Hayley Atwell ad libbed the kiss and took Enver by surprise LOL.

 

I simply adore this series and I want more.  Any suggestions who we can bombard with emails?  Letters?  Chocolates?  Puppies?

I vote for the puppy campaign simply because the idea of people dropping off puppies at a network tickles.

[Sesquipedalia]

I finally got around to watching the finale. Whitney was a great baddie through most of the season, but her take-down was anti-climactic, and the focus on science and zero matter at the end put Peggy way too much in the background. 

 

The season as a whole did not come close to living up to season 1 to me. The under-estimated female double agent concept, set in New York City, was perfection. The focus on love triangles this season held no interest for me. 

 

I still hope there's a season 3, though, and if so, I hope it recaptures more of the tone of season 1.

[fastiller]

I think it's safe to say that Peggy's brother was the guy at the end.

 

I hate to say this but I thought the episode, particularly the resolution of the Whitney Frost threat, was very anti-climatic.  It wasn't big enough for a season finale (which might sadly be a series finale).  The episode itself wasn't bad.  The ending was a lot of fun and the cast was all entertaining (very much enjoyed Ken Marino's character again).  But I can't help but feel "That's it?" when it comes to this finale.

It was against the weather?

 

I don't think production on Agent Carter would move back to NYC, though. My understanding is that they moved production to LA to cut costs this season. Given the show's ratings, if it comes back on whatever platform, it seems unlikely their budget would be bigger than it was this season, so I'd assume they want to stay in the cheaper place.

I'd love the show to move back to NYC, though, so I hope I'm wrong. The show really lost something by losing the noir-ish vibe the city provided, imo.

Was the series shot in NYC when the episodes were set in NYC?    I thought the entire production was done in LA, from the start.

[Sandman]

There were probably some exteriors shot in New York, though, right? I don't know how much that would have added to production costs in the first season. (More than the cost of making 21st century LA look like the Los Angeles of 1947? I have no idea.)

[Sandman]

Schrödinger's Squint

 

Just so you know, this is still making me laugh.

[fastiller]

There were probably some exteriors shot in New York, though, right? I don't know how much that would have added to production costs in the first season. (More than the cost of making 21st century LA look like the Los Angeles of 1947? I have no idea.)

None of the exteriors from the first season looked at all like NYC, even NYC dressed up for the 40s.

[Raja]

I assumed it was Universal Studios lot

[fastiller]

IMDb shows it is both Walt Disney Studios and Warner Brother Studios.  (And the more general "Los Angeles".)

[EyewatchTV211]

None of the exteriors from the first season looked at all like NYC, even NYC dressed up for the 40s.

I thought some of the exteriors were. I could swear I had read an article when they were changing the setting to LA for this past season about how it would be easier to add fake buildings or use some current existing places as opposed to removing the overly modern buildings from the NY scenery. That could have been a dream I had, though. Sometimes I don't remember the difference, lol.