S03.E14: Final Decision, Pt. 2

[Gigi43]

Neil and Sam... I don't think they should be together, but I'm torn about how this went down. Like Neil, I too consider Sam's horrible behavior outweighing the bad. I don't think he ever lead her on, he was constantly trying to get through the days, and they did have some good times, so in Sam's 'all about Sam' mind I can see her seeing something "there" more than him (where as with David and Ashley, David there was never anything there, she gave you nothing, there was nothing to continue.) However, I thought Neil's delivery of "I'm committed... to divorce", to be, so... not okay. I guess this is part of why I could never ever be on a show like this, but, even though as I said I don't think Neil mislead Sam in the weeks leading up to it, I'm so turned off to the idea of knowing you were going to break up with someone in front of cameras and not privately give them a heads up that's how it was going to play out. So, I was feeling a bit bad for Sam. But then in the meeting at the house the next day she was back to refusing to actually listen to him and did her bits, which reminded me of all the times this season he did try to really tell her his issues with the relationship and she freaked out/left, and, perhaps if she had listened, at all, this would have went differently in terms of her realizing more he was not going to stay? I also kind of wonder if Sam saying Yes first was almost a test to Neil to see if that would make him go along with saying Yes, since, she seems to see him as a pushover. But his delivery still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. In any event, if those two have gotten back together I think it's a mix of Neil feeling guilty over how this played out and Sam looking to rehab her image... it won't last.

 

Tres and Vanessa, this was a real toss up. I wasn't entirely sure how they would decide. They're the only ones who, if one said yes, and the other said no, I would really, really, say the other one shouldn't have seen it coming a mile a way because it seemed like there was a mix of good and bad and the good did look pretty sweet at times, which the other couples didn't have at all. Whether that 'good' was all a front for the cameras I guess we'll find out next week.

 

David never should have expected Ashley to say Yes one tiny bit. But still, good for him exiting like that.

 

I'm not sure if I'll watch another season. Not even because of the "experts." The first season seems to in my opinion be a mix of perhaps better matching since it was the first season, and having found people clearly committed at least to making more TV. Even the people on the show, of all seasons, who I think were ready to genuinely be set up, for all everyone talks about how they take marriage so seriously, I've come to just find it hard to believe a high level of commitment to the concept of 'A Marriage Is Forever' if you are willing to do a show like this were you get married blindly with a divorce option set up in 6 weeks. 6 weeks isn't enough time to know someone enough to just move in without that marriage tie and those 6 weeks in this setting is basically playing house. As Tres rationally pointed out, they both had leases, he didn't say the show was providing the living arrangements but it's pretty obvious. They're left on their own in the 6 month period, and if the previews are how I think they are, that's a setting for implosion having to deal with merging with someone you still don't know very well in that kind of way; and look what happened with Ryan D and Jessica when left 'on their own.'  Considering the show is "Married at First Sight", there's really no way to change those ultimate issues with the process as a whole. So where do they go from here?

Edited March 2, 2016 by Gigi43

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Married At First Sight Couples Make Their Final Decisions...For The Second Week In A Row!
The final two couples decide whether to stay or go. Whose Decision Day is the most traumatic?

[izabella]

This is going to be a very unpopular opinion but Neil is a punk. Sam for all her faults is at least honest.

I don't get not discussing the decision beforehand, unless he wanted to publicly humiliate her. His decision was the right one but he should have remained a class act till the end. Instead he comes across and petty and vindictive. I don't even like Sam but Neil was an asshole.

 

Neil has learned to keep things to himself when it comes to Sam.  If he tells her he hates people touching his face, she immediately rubs her hands all over his face.  Had he been honest and told her he wanted a divorce, she would have used it against him in some way and he knows it. 

 

Ugh I can't believe we had to suffer through Ashley being like "ummmmmmm" about everything they were packing up in their house in a monotone voice. She talks so slow and is so painful. I did like how David basically did a "talk to the hand" to her and walked out when she was trying (in her cold dead fish way) to explain herself. Ha!

 

I couldn't believe she reverted back to that blank dead fish stare as soon as they got to the house. It's like her face is frozen when she's alone with David.  Glad he wasn't interested in hearing her.

[psychoticstate]

My guilty pleasure is over for another season. I really think that this was the weakest season, because it took place in Atlanta.  The people involved simply weren't as sophisticated or interesting as were the couples in the previous seasons in New York. Next one is supposed to take place in Miami...that should have more energy. Other than Sam the loon, the rest were boring and at times whiney. Things worked out the way I figured them.  The most intriguing person was actually the dour Ms. Ashlee. To her credit, she was very rational and correct about her final decision. That guy was just to needy.  Needy is never attractive....However, she was a real cold fish. What tipped me off about her coldness and lack of humor was at her bachelorette party. She took the joy and fun out of the room when she refused to let the male strippers perform.  You could see her friends were disappointed.   Being married to Ashlee would be a dreary life indeed. A lot of apologizing and stony silence.

 

So Atlantans aren't as sophisticated or interesting as those in New York or Miami?  That's an insulting statement. 

 

If this season was weak, it had nothing to do with the locale.  The "experts" failed.  David and Ashley clearly were never going to make it and Sam was horrid to Neil, making it very difficult for viewers to root for them to make it.   While I'm happy that Vanessa and Tres decided to stay together, I don't think any of the relationships were ultimately that healthy.

[Paddywagon]

Amazing how much Neil was able to express himself once Sam stopped her abuse. I admire how he handled things and that he didn't get sucked into her extreme mood swings or her selfish agenda. He seems like a pretty awesome guy.

I thought Sam's words were fake and her tears were for herself. I hoped I would feel for her but just couldn't buy into it. Even more so when the very next day she says, "I'm in a better place right now..." In less than a day she's over it after that huge emo breakdown? By the end of the show all I could think is 'that chick is scary unstable.' And yay, only one more episode of seeing Sam talking down her nose with that 'oh so superior' 'tude. I'm actually pretty tired of seeing up her nostrils.

Vanessa screwed up a lot but she touched my heart with her inner struggles. Tres has so much social finesse compared to her but her emotional clumsiness made her so vulnerable I felt for her this whole season! I hope they make it.

I LOVE the Rhett Butler comparison for David's exit. OMG lol...perfect!

Wtf is Ashley dressed in for the reunion show preview...and with all that makeup? Was there a streetwalker reality show audition next door?

.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Paddywagon

[Racj82]

This show is finished if a majority of contestants can't stay together

Haven't been watching the Bachelor at all I see.

[Racj82]

Lol. I have to admit I felt bad for Sam. Granted, she reacted badly and didn't handle the situation of being married to a stranger well... but to be dumped like that? Nobody deserves to be blindsided like that. Part of me thinks that she thought she had more time to sort things out, holding on to Neil's pronouncement that he was in it for the long haul.

On a different note, I personally don't understand why the women this season got all the flak. David appeared to be needy and pushy while Tres was clearly overcompensating with all that gift-giving. And Neil, well, he never really got around to expressing himself to his partner when it really mattered. He, in fact, had the same expression on his face every time he was interviewed throwing words like "exciting" and "commitment" all throughout the show.

All of those things have been pointed out. The men haven't gotten off Scott free. There issues are just way less troublesome on the whole and just easier to deal with as a viewer. At the worst, you have a guy who REALLY wants his marriage to work, a guy working extra hard to show he's committed to this process and a guy who has a hard time talking to a weirdo like Sam. Meanwhile, you had two women that barely tried to make the marriages work and another women who let her insecurities harm a good thing she has going (although not permanently)

[eclectic]

I'm surprised at all the Sam-hate.  She has changed.  She's actually been good for Neil but he's so analytical he can't really sort out his emotions.  Ashley looked like a street prostitute with all that make up.  And I'm sick of her "at the end of the day" and "umm, umm" I was really glad that David finally gave her the heave ho.  Took her by surprise I think.  Dr. Schwarz had her number from the first week.  I am really, really sorry for Sam and not at all surprised she came back the next day (or whenever) her old can't hurt me self.  Sometimes I really don't get Neil.  I don't think he knows what he wants.    But Sam changed.  Give her credit.  She fell in love with the guy.  That's not going to happen often to him. 

[cherry slushie]

Although I agree that Neil's divorce proclamation was a little harsh, it was nothing compared to the way she rejected, bullied and ridiculed him for the better part of 4 weeks. She started to warm to him when he started to pull away, as he should have after being called a pussy, being told to get out of her house, and made to feel like an irrelevant intruder during their stay there, replete with no closet space or key.

 

In the last two weeks, I do believe she grew attached to having him around, (rather than anything truly romantic), and as mentioned above, the more he pulled away from her, the more she chased him. BUT, had he agreed to stay married, it wouldn't have lasted because once the cameras were gone, her bullyish nature would have eventually reared its ugly head again, and he knew it.  Who would want to spend their life with someone who could be so

cruel and emotionally abusive?

 

Having said all that; to the poster who compared David's exit to Clark Gable's in GWTW, right on!  Oh how I wish he phrased it that way when Ashley was whining that she wanted to explain.  "Frankly, Mizz Ashley, I DON"T GIVE A DAMN!". That would have tapped off the end perfectly, although I did like his 'talk to the hand' approach. You could tell it bugged her by the way she stood there in a brief shock twirling her hair, her ego slightly chipped.  

 

Maybe if David had stopped chasing her and pulled away like Neil did, she may have kissed his cheek without being asked to.

 

Tres and Vanessa - Zzzzzzz.  If you put two gorgeous, non-volatile, down-to-earth people together; the likelihood that they will be into each other rises by like 1000%. 

Edited March 2, 2016 by cherry slushie

[Jack Sampson]

Congrats to David and Neil.

Not sure about Tres and Vanessa.

Don't care about Sam and Stashley.

This season was horrible and unforgivably boring. I didn't even watch the last 3 episodes.

[Kareem]

Congrats to David and Neil.

Not sure about Tres and Vanessa.

Don't care about Sam and Stashley.

This season was horrible and unforgivably boring. I didn't even watch the last 3 episodes.

You were missed!

[Snarklepuss]

If she actually understood her mistakes she wouldn't have been repeating them over and over and

been a bully on SM as well when she didn't like what was said to her.

I don't blame him for withholding a thing from her...if he did. People like her don't want to hear anything about how you feel or think. It is suppose to be all about them and nothing more. They don't give you a chance to put the effort you normally would into things unless its how they want it done. Narcissistic bullies know how to put on the tears also when they need to so they get that pity as needed and if its about someone else to make you think that other person is so bad for making you cry. I never want to see people miserable but there is a time when some get what they deserve. If you want to be a bully all your life and get it back one day I don't pity what happens if it gives you a taste of your own medicine. Sometimes it can be the only way to get it across to a bully and sometimes they just will put on the pity me guilt trip and play victim to those that will give it to them. Let me just add that people like her make you want to shut down and not feel a damn thing around them so you don't give anything for them to come at you with. 

 

I would agree with you about Narcissistic bullies in general, but one thing I feel strongly about is that individual people are rarely consistent with textbook definitions.  It seems to me that Sam actually has a soft side and Neil somehow got through to it by not being pushy (which is one reason why she said he got her to change) - Unfortunately it also meant he wasn't into her whatsoever.  I actually don't think that if her earlier behavior was better he would have wanted a relationship with her anyway.  Not that I think I have extra special powers or anything but I tend to be good at telling the BS from a genuine reaction and while Narcissists can be great at fake crying I felt this went beyond that into a full blown out-of-control sobbing session in which for those moments she was totally in the grip of genuine emotions.  It was only LATER that she snapped back into her narcissist act by going to the house the day after and acting like everything was just fine, peachy keen, no residue of emotions left to see.

 

It's often a classic dynamic between romantic couples that when one acts overly distant the other suddenly finds feelings for them.  I think this was the case with Sam.  He was so distant it made her able to step back and without pressure look at him more objectively which allowed her to let him into her heart.  Unfortunately, as I said above, his distance was due to him not being into her whatsoever.  When he said he didn't feel anything when he kissed her and "that was a problem", I was like "Uh oh", because usually in my experience men can separate that physical chemistry from a woman having been a bitch to them.  Like at least he could have found her attractive in that physical way.  But I kind of doubt that would have been there anyway.  I don't know what that says about Neil, but it's not something I'd say is typical for a guy.  Actually I wouldn't be as blunt as Sam was about it but in some ways in the back of the unevolved side of my brain I have at times thought that "pussy" applies to him.  Sorry if that offends anyone, it's just a gut reaction, as I'm sure it was with Sam.

[Neurochick]

This is going to be a very unpopular opinion but Neil is a punk. Sam for all her faults is at least honest.

I don't get not discussing the decision beforehand, unless he wanted to publicly humiliate her. His decision was the right one but he should have remained a class act till the end. Instead he comes across and petty and vindictive. I don't even like Sam but Neil was an asshole.

 

You know what Neil did IMO?  he gave Sam a taste of her own medicine and she couldn't deal.  Sam can dish out the shit, but she can't take it. 

 

Having said all that; to the poster who compared David's exit to Clark Gable's in GWTW, right on!  Oh how I wish he phrased it that way when Ashley was whining that she wanted to explain.  "Frankly, Mizz Ashley, I DON"T GIVE A DAMN!". That would have tapped off the end perfectly, although I did like his 'talk to the hand' approach. You could tell it bugged her by the way she stood there in a brief shock twirling her hair, her ego slightly chipped.

 

 

I was hoping David would pull a, "My dear, I don't give a damn," (what Rhett says in the book) on Ashley.  

 

Every time Ashley tries to justify her actions with the "social media" whatever, I want one of the experts to play the clip of Ashley in the ladies room ON HER WEDDING DAY saying, "I don't like him."  From day one that's how Ashley felt and her feelings never changed.  So she needs to stop with the social media/I can't trust him bullshit.  I'm not buying it.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Neurochick

[Meowwww]

Notice Sam said she ran out crying because she "was embarrassed". Not because she was sad or hurt.

I have eight years of (awful) experience living with someone just like Sam. Sure, they can "change" for days or weeks in order to get their goal....but once that's accomplished, it's back to same old narcissist. So good on Neil for getting out.

I too had learned to become emotionless in my relationship, but let me tell you....when you walk on eggshells for so long, it feels REALLY good to get a little zinger out, like Neil did with his committed statement. He knew the end was near and could finally feel free enough to fight back with emotions and words. I have been there too.

So, maybe my life experience leads me to read into it....but maybe not. But I see so much of my ex in Sam, even down to the words about "cherishing" Neil.

[Straycat80]

I knew how this was going to end because I read a spoiler on another board. This was a sad and boring season, I DVR the show and fast forwarded through a lot of it.

I am more interested now in watching next week to see what happens at the six month reunion. Have not read any spoilers on this so we'll see if Neil and Sam are still together as well as Tres and Vanessa. I think we all know David and Ashley were done even before they started.

[AussieBabe]

I'm all for forgiveness and giving people second chances, but your first impression is the lasting impression. I'm glad she has awareness now, but she was nasty towards him for weeks. There's no denying that. He may have forgiven her like a person forgives a cheater, but that doesn't mean you need to be with that person after they've hurt you. I'm human and make mistakes. That doesn't mean I'd expect someone to want to stick by me when I've treated them like shit as if that's all they understood. She might have sincerely cared towards the end, but damn, she shot herself in the foot. As I stated last week, her off-screen behaviour might have played an even more massive role in their downfall than the little glimpses we saw. I don't think she was acting like that for the camera, so is it possible that she acted even worse when the crew left? If so, then divorce probably was for the best. And she had to get to Costa Rica? Unless she booked the flight after his decision, that trip had to have been planned, right?

I think his response was edited chopped and screwed. This season was a bust and dear Lawd how much makeup did Ashley have on? She went from a nude/natural face to looking like the Vamp of Savannah. Geez.

Edited March 2, 2016 by AussieBabe

[sleekandchic]

Notice Sam said she ran out crying because she "was embarrassed". Not because she was sad or hurt.

I have eight years of (awful) experience living with someone just like Sam. Sure, they can "change" for days or weeks in order to get their goal....but once that's accomplished, it's back to same old narcissist. So good on Neil for getting out.

I too had learned to become emotionless in my relationship, but let me tell you....when you walk on eggshells for so long, it feels REALLY good to get a little zinger out, like Neil did with his committed statement. He knew the end was near and could finally feel free enough to fight back with emotions and words. I have been there too.

So, maybe my life experience leads me to read into it....but maybe not. But I see so much of my ex in Sam, even down to the words about "cherishing" Neil.

Yes! And if I am remembering correctly, once Sam left the couch and went outside to "sob," we never actually saw her face again. It was dark out, and she turned her back to the camera and dropped to her knees as Dr Schwartz spoke and consoled. Was Sam crying real tears? I have my doubts, based on other times that Sam "cried" on camera.

My overall impression of that scene told me that we, the audience, were being manipulated and that Sam expected and really didn't care about Neil's rejection. In fact, her audible sobbing at one specific moment sounded truly artificial and inauthentic to me.

I was glad Neil didn't chase after Sam; and I also thought that Pepper, though superficially kind in her consolation, was about as generic as one can be under those type of circumstances.

A quick ETA re the elephant in the room: notwithstanding Sam's kissy hands-on in the car on the way home from Savannah, I don't believe she was ever physically attracted to Neil or wanted sex. If they had remained married, sex was out of the question, imo. More likely, Sam wanted to milk the next six months for a payday.

Edited March 2, 2016 by sleekandchic

[Vinyasa]

Every time Ashley tries to justify her actions with the "social media" whatever, I want one of the experts to play the clip of Ashley in the ladies room ON HER WEDDING DAY saying, "I don't like him."  From day one that's how Ashley felt and her feelings never changed.  So she needs to stop with the social media/I can't trust him bullshit.  I'm not buying it.

 

All she has to make her look like the victim is the "social media" that broke her trust. Cry me a river!! 

 

She had ZERO interest in him from the first second. I said it before and I'll say it for the last time, if he looked like Brad Pitt the "social media" would have been a the best idea ever.

[BunnySlippers]

Re Ashley: I loved how, in her little chat with Jamie, she kept trying to look like she was oh-so-innocent and how it was all David's fault, and when she complained about David not showing a "united front" as they supposedly had agreed, and Jamie asked if Ashley had told David what her decision was going to be, she started to stammer, and again, she blamed that on David, too, because he should have known, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see it, etc. etc. So yeah, she hadn't told him, because she never wanted to actually talk to him. She is so fake. I thought that little scene really showed how insincere she is. And Jamie ate it all up. Big smiles, bobbing head, everything.

 

And I totally agree about her makeup. She looked horrible. Stiff and fake, not only in her answers and her behavior, but in her looks, too.

Edited March 3, 2016 by BunnySlippers

[Kareem]

I'm all for forgiveness and giving people second chances, but your first impression is the lasting impression. I'm glad she has awareness now, but she was nasty towards him for weeks. There's no denying that. He may have forgiven her like a person forgives a cheater, but that doesn't mean you need to be with that person after they've hurt you. I'm human and make mistakes. That doesn't mean I'd expect someone to want to stick by me when I've tried them like shit as if that's all they understood. She might have sincerely cared towards the end, but damn, she shot herself in the foot. As I stated last week, her off-screen behaviour might have played an even more massive role in their downfall than the little glimpses we saw. I don't think she was acting like that for the camera, so is it possible that she acted even worse when the crew left? If so, then divorce probably was for the best. And she had to get to Costa Rica? Unless she booked the flight after his decision, that trip had to have been planned, right?

I think his response was edited chopped and screwed. This season was a bust and dear Lawd how much makeup did Ashley have on? She went from a nude/natural face to looking like the Vamp of Savannah. Geez.

Agree with you wholeheartedly once again, Aussie. Mistakes are putting on the wrong color socks. Sam's behavior is deliberate and a way of life to her; the epiphany she claims to have had is not all that evident.

She's been an animal in SM and managed yet another parting shot post-dump

. I hope things improve for her down the road, especially if Neil chooses to go back for Round 2.

[Vinyasa]

Does anyone remember when Sam and Neil did the "knees touching" thing, where they had to look at each other and keep their knees touching?

 

They were sitting on this brown sofa and the room had brick wall and were at Sam's house. At the time, I kept thinking "where would that be in her house??" because the living room had this beige sofa.

 

Well they showed the brown sofa last night in the room with the brick wall and it was the second house that they moved in. Yet, the "knees toughing" thing was done early in the season before they even moved to the second house.

 

The production is so bad on this show!!!! And I'm even worse for caring about it!

Edited March 2, 2016 by Vinyasa

[HumblePi]

I think that when there's absolutely zero chemistry, and in Samantha and Neil's case, close to revulsion, there's little chance of getting any spark of tender feelings for each other.

 

It was pretty clear from the wedding that Tres and Vanessa had an attraction and were going to last despite Vanessa being a little hormonal bitch every now and then. Thanks to Tres's perseverance, patience and consideration, they made it work. Vanessa needs to grow up more and put Tres over herself once in a while.

 

Everyone knew that David and Ashley were poorly matched from the start. I LOVED that David just turned his back entirely to Ashley. She seemed to be a little taken back by his rush to leave the cozy nest. She needs to wax off that mustache and start practicing how to smile if she wants to find a man. Ashley can go back and put all the blame on David for the 'social media thing' but she'll never take one iota of responsibility herself.

 

It was also predictable that Neil and Samantha wouldn't make it. The only surprise was when Neil said at the last minute "I am committed" then dropped the divorce bomb onto Samantha. Yes, she made an effort the last couple of weeks to be less of a turd to Neil but those first few weeks confirmed to Neil that Samantha could be a difficult, sulky, immature child. I think Samantha really believed that a man like Neil who is so dignified would take her abuse laying down then ask for more by staying married to her. Watching her crumble and run into the night was funny, I replayed that three times. Maybe she'll think twice before she mocks another guy's manhood in the future. That's a big 'no-no' especially for a man like Neil who has a lot of pride and is extremely intelligent. Samantha will have to lower her bar of expectations in any man if she wants to snag one. And yes Samantha, you did deserve it.

Edited March 2, 2016 by HumblePi

[operalover]

I really wish I knew the real things that Niel was thinking. We can only speculate based on what we saw and what he says. But he is probably thinking things like

1. I can't stand the smell of those sugar gliders so no fucking way

2. I hate her clothing

3. Her housekeeping is lousy

4. She has so many annoying habits that no matter what she says I could never spend a lifetime with her

 

I am SURE he has many more details about things about her that he despises and has since the start which he has not shared with us nor with her. Maybe his best buddies when the camera is off. He is polite so he kept his disgust in. I'd love to get the real scoop. Sure he can stick with "you were mean to me at first" "the bad outweighed the good"....but that is not it. 

 

I think Tres and whatshername are sticking it out so neither one of them looks like a phony. I think Tres is lying and does not want to stay married but he is afraid of the fallout and looking like the bad guy and a liar and a player if he asked for a divorce. He figures he can keep up the charade for awhile longer. He is miserable, it is NOT going to last. 

[Snarklepuss]

I think Neil may have brought Sam some moments of clarity and genuine feeling, but that doesn't also mean I think he should have stayed with her nor that she has been miraculously "cured" of her psychological dysfunctions.  I definitely don't think any epiphanies she claims to have had because of Neil are going to change her permanently, either.  It may have some effect but not as much as she thinks.  I just now see both sides of the story with Neil and realize he was given a break with his public image being matched with her because his issues have been pretty much hidden from view while she has let everything bad about her hang out for everyone in the world to see.  I personally think that if she were that much of a narcissist she would have made more of an effort to hide that from the public.  I think one of the reasons Sam was upset with Neil about his "on camera" and "off camera" personalities is that she realized that he was hiding the potentially damaging stuff about him from view of the public, while she wasn't, and she realized that would probably make her look like the "bad guy" to the audience.  I actually can't blame her for that nor chalk it up to narcissism, because we all know how damaging having the TV viewing public label you the bad guy when the truth might be somewhere in between.  She must have been thinking to herself, "Here I am making myself look like an ass on national TV and he gets off Scot Free!"  The more I think about Neil, the more I see that he has big passive aggressive tendencies that he was hiding behind that cold facade of his.  I am just not willing to let Neil get off "Scot Free" when there's just as much about him that was flawed from the start in that relationship.

[Vinyasa]

And if I am remembering correctly, once Sam left the couch and went outside to "sob," we never actually saw her face again. It was dark out, and she turned her back to the camera and dropped to her knees as Dr Schwartz spoke and consoled. Was Sam crying real tears? I have my doubts, based on other times that Sam "cried" on camera.

 

Sam seemed to recover nicely. The next day she was just fine and had  tickets to paradise (Costa Rica) that I guess she just got by magic.

 

All is good once you get your hair straightened!

[operalover]

I do agree that Neil is passive aggressive. He is the very definition of passive aggressive. He is passive and his doing nothing actually causes harm. And usually this is on purpose. It's hard to really examine him or hate him because of that - we don't have an actual example of something horrible that he did to her. 

 

Whoever put the preview together for the next show did a smash up job of finding clips that make it look like Tres and Vanessa had a huge fight and are breaking up and that Neil and Same may be getting back together. Re-watching the preview clip, it seems like they are discussing and old fight. But kudos to the editors.  I'm on the edge of my seat.

[Snarklepuss]

Maybe if David had stopped chasing her and pulled away like Neil did, she may have kissed his cheek without being asked to.

 

I've wondered about that myself.  I think you might be right.  The problem is that Ashley was so cold and distant that it made David pursue her even more ardently, which only further alienated her.  But I don't think he would have stood a chance anyway, and his behavior only cemented that even more.  Unfortunately it's only natural for one partner to pursue when the other one is cold and distancing, and usually it is only self-defeating behavior.  The best response to someone who is cold and distant when you would otherwise be warm and accepting, is to be cold and distant - If there's ever any chance of them turning around on you, that's the only way to find out.  The corny old expression about setting something free and if it comes back to you it's yours and if not it never was is actually very true.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[Stinamaia]

So much of the breaking up drama was producer driven in my opinion. Nothing will ever convince me that David wanted to stay married to Ashley, but his saying he did not only fit in to his need to be perceived as a good guy, but also the producers' need for conflict. I would have been horrified to have been matched with David. He repulses me in pretty much every way. I don't agree with how Ashley handled it, and she will forever remain a myster to me. It almost seems that both adopted personas for the purposes of the show because in real life neither of them makes sense.

As for Neil and Sam: Neil's "committed to divorce" speech seemed producer crafted, but Neil was happy to deliver it. Of course, Sam like David should have known that Neil was not going to continue. At the end, Neil said something about holding grudges and how he wasn't going to do that anymore, but I think he did hold a grudge against Sam and that is the reason he was willing to go along with the committed to divorce dialogue. I certainly do think he made the right decision to break up with her, As for Sam, I'm not sure. Maybe she does fall for guys who withhold their emotions from her. I do think she was sincere when she said that if Neil said he wanted a divorce, she would deserve it. I doubt she is that good an actress.

I wish Tres and Vanessa all the best. They seemed like fairly normal people to me. Both have really good qualities and both have failings. We will see how it goes.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Stinamaia

[okerry]

Narcissistic bullies know how to put on the tears also when they need to so they get that pity as needed and if its about someone else to make you think that other person is so bad for making you cry. I never want to see people miserable but there is a time when some get what they deserve. If you want to be a bully all your life and get it back one day I don't pity what happens if it gives you a taste of your own medicine. Sometimes it can be the only way to get it across to a bully and sometimes they just will put on the pity me guilt trip and play victim to those that will give it to them. Let me just add that people like her make you want to shut down and not feel a damn thing around them so you don't give anything for them to come at you with. 

THIS, 100%. Sam flipped into full-blown victim mode and made it all about herself, and it worked - she's getting loads of sympathy now from message boards and SM.

 

Many are saying, "Yes, but she changed! She was being so nice to Neil for the last few shows! See, she changed!" 

 

Kids - what Sam was doing in those last few shows is called "love bombing." Narcissists will do this when they've decided you're useful to them and want you on their side. You know, like when you're about to be on national TV and have already made a complete ass of yourself.

 

She was hoping he'd stay with her after she "changed." Not because she cares about him, but because she needs him to not make her look bad on TV. Apparently she's still love-bombing him on SM, but we'll see what happens after the attention dies down and nobody's paying attention any longer. That's when she'll show her true colors (not that she already hasn't.)

[Liberty]

It was sadly interesting to watch as both Stashley and Samantha attempted to portray themselves as the victims.  Truly they demonstrate a lack of  understand about how their actions are received by the rest of the world.

 

The scene with Samantha sobbing outside as she squatted by the fence (which resembled prison bars) was striking.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Liberty

[BBDi]

I think Neil may have brought Sam some moments of clarity and genuine feeling, but that doesn't also mean I think he should have stayed with her nor that she has been miraculously "cured" of her psychological dysfunctions. I definitely don't think any epiphanies she claims to have had because of Neil are going to change her permanently, either. It may have some effect but not as much as she thinks. I just now see both sides of the story with Neil and realize he was given a break with his public image being matched with her because his issues have been pretty much hidden from view while she has let everything bad about her hang out for everyone in the world to see. I personally think that if she were that much of a narcissist she would have made more of an effort to hide that from the public. I think one of the reasons Sam was upset with Neil about his "on camera" and "off camera" personalities is that she realized that he was hiding the potentially damaging stuff about him from view of the public, while she wasn't, and she realized that would probably make her look like the "bad guy" to the audience. I actually can't blame her for that nor chalk it up to narcissism, because we all know how damaging having the TV viewing public label you the bad guy when the truth might be somewhere in between. She must have been thinking to herself, "Here I am making myself look like an ass on national TV and he gets off Scot Free!" The more I think about Neil, the more I see that he has big passive aggressive tendencies that he was hiding behind that cold facade of his. I am just not willing to let Neil get off "Scot Free" when there's just as much about him that was flawed from the start in that relationship.

I thought Sam's issue with Neil is that he was more open and engaging with her off-camera (maybe to the point of challenging her on stuff) but then would be extremely neutral or at least very diplomatic on camera. She said she liked the "real" version better. So I dont think the issue was that he was an awful person offscreen.

I wonder if he saw even more crazy offscreen than we did onscreen? Maybe he just saw so many red flags in her behavior that when she started being nice to him and liking him it just didn't matter. Seems like he was constantly playing defense and trying to work around her for the first few weeks. That doesn't leave much room for building a relationship when you are just trying to "manage" the other person.

Not to excuse him or say he's flawless. I don't think his communication skills are great.

Edited March 2, 2016 by BBDi

[jamblastx]

Say what you want about Ashley, but you guys know she had a point. David is more in love with the fantasy of being married then he's in love with Ashley. He fought so hard for a women who made it clear she didn't want him. What kind of self respecting man would be all over her the way he was after all that rejection. If people want to praise Neil for growing a pair, we have to look over and realize how David sill has yet to.

Oh I HATE to admit that Ashley is right about anything but yes, I do believe that she was correct that David is in love with the fantasy of being in love and looking for something that clearly was never there.  HOWEVER, this astute observation by Ashley could have been communicated to him at anytime during the course of the six weeks rather than her just being silent.  She is the type of person who expects people to understand and empathize with her feelings because they are supposed to read her mind rather than her bothering doing the work of forming words and sentences in order to communicate her feelings.

 

Ironically enough, most people cannot fault her for not being attractive to David (to each their own), for not bonding with him (even though she didn't even bother trying) and for making the observation that she thought that David couldn't truly be into her because of what she projected to him (which is less than nothing).  But what we can fault her is with the horrific way she acted and shut down for no reason and for not taking ANY ownership of where this went wrong.

[bichonblitz]

The decisions were all correct in my opinion. Trey and Vanessa have a shot, good for them for wanting to try it for real and away from the camera's. It will be interesting to see if they last. 

 

Neil and Ashley- they both have those awful blank stares, they barely even blink, and they  talk soooooo slooooowly. I can't stand it! 

 

Neil and Sam- it's just a case of too little too late. Lesson learned, Sam. Treat people the way you would want to be treated. From the start. 

 

I was laughing the whole time David was packing and ignoring Ashley. Walked out the door and left her standing there all alone. Loved it!

[Cherrio]

Say what you want about Ashley, but you guys know she had a point. David is more in love with the fantasy of being married then he's in love with Ashley. He fought so hard for a women who made it clear she didn't want him. What kind of self respecting man would be all over her the way he was after all that rejection. If people want to praise Neil for growing a pair, we have to look over and realize how David sill has yet to.

This post and Sistercouch's point about David and his ridiculous pledge to his next wife.  He is talking to air. He is talking to his idea and fantasies, not a real person. So, yes Ashley was 100% correct in her assessment of David. Not to mention his betrayal , his anger issues and immaturity and delusional thinking. I think its clear, at least to me if a person (on television no less) can expose so many character flaws and potential mental disorders in such a short time, the real David is probably a very messed up person.      I got that vibe from him instantly.    I think besides the total lack of physical attraction, Ashley may of felt the same way. She probably felt early on he could be potentially explosive and that determined a lot of the way she acted.   There were cameras and lots of people around , but not every single minute, so she could of been frightened.    She still may be frightened.    Of course, she never should of continued with the show.

             Who the heck knows what goes on really , we don't, but I guess it basically always comes back to anyone who ends up on a reality show, I think they all have something wrong or lacking that they need to do it.

              I got very creepy vibes from David from day one and all the way thru the show.  He is scary imo. He should be seeking serious help, not a girlfriend. 

                                    The whole show is stupid.     The premise is they get married and are supposed to find love, trust, togetherness and friendship.  Right? Then of course they should be talking about the future.     But, then there would not be a show.    The whole decision day makes all these marriages a joke.  If there are problems or concerns, then a proposal might be turned down or someone may love someone deeply, but not ready for marriage.

                     I think Neil is one of these people who has a need to be different and wants everyone to know it. The huge beard, the anti-social personality, the silly footsie pajama's.    Those are not girl magnets.     They are look at me, I am going to do everything I can to be a turn off, but expect the best, then be silent or act indignant when a woman reacts negatively. Passive aggressive at its best.      I think if I had seen Neil in those stupid pajama's, I would of call room service for a crib and then left.

    I don't think Neil is a bad person, but I think he has self esteem issues. He knows he is a unusual looking man, not considered handsome in a traditional way. But he could certainly be a catch if he could be real and let his personality come out.

       As for Vanessa and Trey, I do not see a future.   I never once say any depth to either of their personalities.  They do not seem able to have a real conversation.

       Even their physical attraction seems very luke warm.

[Jax7917]

Neil is totally sheldon cooper all the way.. Lack of emotion, no personality or affection ... BUT I still do not blame him for not wanting to be with Sam. She honestly repulsed me and her personality was so hostile and aggressive. The last straw for me would have been when she wouldn't give him a key to her house and when she kicked him out for god forbid making a joke as if she NEVER makes nasty jabs at him. Her personality is so up and down that I would personally be petrified of her and would feel the need to tip toe around her feelings all the time. Sam's personality is not lady like and not many guys would want someone like her so really, he can't be blamed. I do admit the committed thing was weird though followed by " I want a divorce".

 

Thank god Ashley's cold cake face will be off my screen after next week. I truly hope she dates a guy who treats her the same way she treated David.

 

Tres and Vanessa- really not surprised by the ending. they really had no real reason to divorce

[operalover]

Neil never really said anything bad about Sam to the camera. Hardly ever so we really don't know what he really thinks of her. He was very calculated in the presence of the cameras.

[jamblastx]

Tres and Vanessa - Ok they stayed together...whatever.  Let's move this along....nothing to see.....move it along.....

 

Sam and Neil - I am all for redemption and I myself have given people the benefit of the doubt and second...and third...and fourth chances.  But yes while I would love to have bought into Sam's transformation, it did seem hollow.  Especially where when it comes time for her decision and she knows that she will need to fight for him due to her self admittedly awful behavior, all she does is talk about herself.  "I have changed...I have come a long way...I have learned from this experience...I I I I Me Me Me Me Me'  Any mention of Neil was how he affected her in her metamorphosis and not how she felt about him.  As usual, Neil's manner of speaking and choice of words was odd.  'I am completely committed to this....I want a divorce'....What?  Not the best way of saying it...usually when someone states that they are committed to something, they mean it in a positive way and not a preface for something negative.

 

Ashley and David - Yes David is too needy and too much in love with being in love but how he acted with her when moving out of the house was....perfect.  Give the robot a taste of her own medicine...or oil...or microchips.  And I am glad he realized that he had lost the game before he ever had a chance to play it.  And seriously Ashley...now you want to talk?  For the entire six weeks before that it was just too hard to talk and express yourself...wahh...too late.  You got what you wanted other than being exposed on national television as an awful human being, so move on.

 

The Production - I cannot stress enough how much I hate these reality show productions...with the 'cliffhanger' before every commercial and the recap of what we just saw two minutes earlier before the commercial.  But they also did a disservice by showing Sam running out of the room during various promos over the last few weeks.  Anyone who saw that got a VERY good impression that Neil was going to say no.  While it wasn't a 'spoiler' in the true sense, it might as well have been.

[JaggedLilPill]

I think Neil is by nature a non-confrontational person. I'm not either and people mistake it as me not caring enough, that I'm not bothered, etc. And yeah, of course some of it is on me. I know people aren't mind readers, but I keep thinking back to the honeymoon when they were playing tether ball and Sam's response was that since Neil didn't tell her she upset him at the exact second it happened, she wouldn't apologize.

I didn't realize there was a statute of limitations on telling someone they hurt your feelings. I'm not advocating hold it in and against them forever, because that isn't healthy either, but it had been like earlier in the day. Sometimes people need to process it, sometimes it's not the appropriate time to bring it up, etc.

I agree that his communication skills aren't the best, but in the end, someone as quiet as Neil is not a good match for someone as outspoken and volatile and who easily flies off the handle like Sam. And I'm not even sure how she would have reacted had he told her how he was feeling. I kind of think she would have deflected it back to him and what he did wrong. And if that is what happened, I can understand him him kind of giving up and just not bothering anymore.

[sarkygal]

Neil and Sam: The use of the word "committed". It seems all couples were coached into giving a long preamble before stating  their decision, so we could build up some suspense. Vanessa even used the word but, so I am inclined to think that Neil's unfortunate word choice was just that. Unfortunate. I think the blow back on Neil being cruel or vindictive is unfair. Reverse their actions for a minute and we would all be in arms calling Neil abusive and demanding production rescue Sam from a man who belittled and humiliated her constantly. But because Neil was the subject of that, there's less sympathy. Sam's turnaround IMO was temporary, and defensive. If he'd stayed, he would be called a masochist or a wuss. He may not be traditionally attractive, but that doesn't mean Sam was the best he could do. Even the chat after decision day, her attitude was that she was over it all. I think in Sam's mind, Neil should be grateful she ever entertained him for a second. And that exactly is why I am happy he removed himself from her toxicity.

 

Tres & Vanessa: The smile on Vanessa's face when Tres said he wanted to stay married was really sweet. I heard him say he was falling for her. I'm still not sure if they make it past 6 months if they don't truly discuss their expectations of a partner instead of making assumptions. I think Vanessa's more ambitious and sophisticated than Tres, as well as having watched too many romantic movies. I just realized we never saw them share a real kiss; it was always quick pecks. I hope they were more affectionate with each other than we saw on camera and could just make it work. 

Edited March 2, 2016 by sarkygal

[LennieBriscoe]

I agree with the posts about "first impressions."

Tres of Vanessa: Beautiful woman! Woot!

Vanessa of Tres: Fiiiiine.

David of Ashley: Lovely girl! I can live with this choice! Woot!

Ashley of David: WTH?! Why did I bother telling the "experts" that I had a definite "type" and a slightly-overweight light-haired guy ain't it?!

Neil of Samantha: Attractive person, but WTH is up with that weird dance spasm thing coming up the aisle? Getting an odd vibe here.

Samantha of Neil: The 98-pound googly-eyed weakling with bad hair who gets sand kicked in his face. Fuhgeddaboutit.

At the end, some egos might have been bruised (particularly because...TV), but I don't think any of the above changed for real.

Except maybe with David. Awesome exit, Buddy!

Edited March 2, 2016 by LennieBriscoe

[bichonblitz]

Neil is totally sheldon cooper all the way.. Lack of emotion, no personality or affection ...

 

 

Except Sheldon Cooper is funny (even though he doesn't try to be) and Neil is not. I don't blame him one bit for wanting a divorce but that guy is a total bore. No personality at all. 

[BunnySlippers]

I wonder if he saw even more crazy offscreen than we did onscreen? Maybe he just saw so many red flags in her behavior that when she started being nice to him and liking him it just didn't matter. Seems like he was constantly playing defense and trying to work around her for the first few weeks. That doesn't leave much room for building a relationship when you are just trying to "manage" the other person.

Not to excuse him or say he's flawless. I don't think his communication skills are great.

That's a good point. Maybe she was even worse off camera. We don't know what happened when they were alone.

 

I was laughing the whole time David was packing and ignoring Ashley. Walked out the door and left her standing there all alone. Loved it!

 

What did Ashley even want to talk about at this point? I don't get it. All this time, she gave him the silent treatment (unless there was something she could hit him on the head with, like the 4th July party or the "Social Media thing"). Her just standing around, looking all forlorn and rejected was ridiculous. Maybe she was trying to play the role of the victim. Look, how nice I am! Wanting to talk to him, but he walks out on me!

 

I agree that his communication skills aren't the best, but in the end, someone as quiet as Neil is not a good match for someone as outspoken and volatile and who easily flies off the handle like Sam. And I'm not even sure how she would have reacted had he told her how he was feeling. I kind of think she would have deflected it back to him and what he did wrong. And if that is what happened, I can understand him him kind of giving up and just not bothering anymore.

 

True, maybe that's what would have happened.

 

About Sam looking all cool and collected when they met up in the end: I don't blame her for that. I think she had some time to cool off and think things over, and she didn't want to show her hurt again. What was she supposed to do? Sob and beg on her knees for him to take her back? I think saying she was okay was the right thing to do. So I'm not sure why people criticize her for that. I'm not a fan of hers, I think she was terrible most of the time, and I agree that everything was always about her and her alone, but I don't think she's just all evil.

Edited March 2, 2016 by BunnySlippers

[Jade Foxx]

 

Yes, she made an effort the last couple of weeks to be less of a turd to Neil but those first few weeks confirmed to Neil that Samantha could be a difficult, sulky, immature child. I think Samantha really believed that a man like Neil who is so dignified would take her abuse laying down then ask for more by staying married to her. Watching her crumble and run into the night was funny, I replayed that three times. Maybe she'll think twice before she mocks another guy's manhood in the future. That's a big 'no-no' especially for a man like Neil who has a lot of pride and is extremely intelligent. Samantha will have to lower her bar of expectations in any man if she wants to snag one. And yes Samantha, you did deserve it.

 

Thank you.

 

All these budding Sam apologists are astounding! For weeks we've watched her treat Neil like the modern day version of The Elephant man; she couldn't even manage her own heinous behavior long enough to treat him like a worthy human being. And that's just what we SAW ON CAMERA.

 

When decision day loomed and she made this miraculous "evolution," I was hip to her sneaky bullshit immediately. It was all about her saving face, not wanting to be embarrassed on national TV, all her mea culpas about "how she would deserve divorce" were just stealth manipulations to get Neil to stay on as her whipping boy. She doesn't even LIKE Neil. She thought she was such hot shit in her horrible hot shorts, and that Neil was the "lucky one" to be with her. Which shows me that most of her life she's been surrounding by people who tolerate, enable, or cheer her on in whatever horrible personality disorder she has. (that can't be fixed) Remember the way she snapped at her mother? Yeah. 

 

I don't take delight it another's pain, especially when it's authentic and understandable; I'm usually pretty empathetic. What I can't stand, have no time for, are manipulative, narcissistic bullies; I've come across more than a few in my time. They're clueless and dangerous at the same time.

 

Sam's "meltdown" was all about herself, her ego, her inability to control a person and/or situation.

 

And bitch had it coming.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Jade Foxx

[Vinyasa]

Whoever put the preview together for the next show did a smash up job of finding clips that make it look like Tres and Vanessa had a huge fight and are breaking up and that Neil and Same may be getting back together. Re-watching the preview clip, it seems like they are discussing and old fight. But kudos to the editors.  I'm on the edge of my seat.

 

Kevin Frazier and the three other experts aren't  showing up for the reunion! Is it only Dr. Pepper there.

 

 What gives??? It is going to be that boring?

[princelina]

The part that made me laugh was when Sam fled the room and the other three just sat there in awkward silence.  Then finally Pepper says, "I'll go, I'll go."  hehe

 

Before Neil dumped her, Sam said in a TH that she had gone into this with good intentions from the start and had always planned to make things work, even if she wasn't initially attracted to her partner.  So if that's true, then she really planned to make things work by behaving the way she did?  Interesting.  I'm of the opinion that if her tears WERE real, they were all about how sad she was for herself to be embarrassed on TV.  Although I do agree that she finally managed to act classy when they met up afterwards.

 

And now, based on the previews, we are going to be subjected to more of the fiction that D&A were doing great until David ruined it all by texting that other woman.  I really hope Dr P calls Ashley out on that one!

[BunnySlippers]

All these budding Sam apologists are astounding! For weeks we've watched her treat Neil like the modern day version of The Elephant man; she couldn't even manage her own heinous behavior long enough to treat him like a worthy human being. And that's just what we SAW ON CAMERA.

 

Just because I don't like how Neil phrased his divorce decision and I can see his faults as well as Sam's doesn't make me a "budding Sam apologist."

[bichonblitz]

 David to Ashley: Do you want this? Showing her a picture frame.

Ashley: Ummmmmmm,  Duuuuuhhhhh, I don't knooooow...staring blankly at frame...

David:Never mind

 

Make a decision, woman!

 

For those that said David was too needy,came on too strong,  in love with love, looking for the fairy tale, please. David didn't have a chance. Ashley decided the moment she walked through the doors and down the aisle that she wasn't gonna have any of that. Before he even had a chance to open his mouth. There is nothing she could possibly say that will make anyone think that she was "giving it her all".  Eat shit, Ash. 

[JaggedLilPill]

I'm all for forgiveness and giving people second chances, but your first impression is the lasting impression. I'm glad she has awareness now, but she was nasty towards him for weeks. There's no denying that. He may have forgiven her like a person forgives a cheater, but that doesn't mean you need to be with that person after they've hurt you. I'm human and make mistakes. That doesn't mean I'd expect someone to want to stick by me when I've treated them like shit as if that's all they understood. She might have sincerely cared towards the end, but damn, she shot herself in the foot. 

 

Yup! Forgive doesn't automatically equate to continuing a relationship with the person. It can mean you forgive them, but no longer want them in your life. Or, you can forgive them, still want them in your life, just not in the same way.

 

Unfortunate. I think the blow back on Neil being cruel or vindictive is unfair. Reverse their actions for a minute and we would all be in arms calling Neil abusive and demanding production rescue Sam from a man who belittled and humiliated her constantly. But because Neil was the subject of that, there's less sympathy.

 

 

100% agree with this. 

Edited March 2, 2016 by JaggedLilPill

[Vinyasa]

Holy crap! Ashley has soooo much make up on in the reunion preview. Yikes!

 

She really nailed the Morticia Addams look.

 

David looked so much better with out that beard in the after show with Jamie. Now for a little spray tan, a few less pounds and an orthodontist (sorry but his teeth bothered me).......no one is calling him a "stranger".

[Aethera]

Folks, I know this feels like the Finale, but we still have 6 Months Later coming up. Let's avoid the social media discussion, please. I'm going to go through and Spoiler Tag all mentions of social media, but going forward, take it to the Social Media thread.