Disney Films

[starri]

6 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I'm excited because Howard, the documentary about the true mastermind behind the Disney Renaissance, Howard Ashman, is on Disney+ today. Anyone else watching it?

I've blinked back tears a few times.  "Somewhere That's Green" always, ALWAYS gets me.

[Scarlett45]

@ruby24 & @starri Howard Ashman was a genius and it’s so sad we lost him when we did!

[Brn2bwild]

More observations from watching Disney Golden/Silver Age movies:

• Maybe I'm just biased because I was actually alive when the Renaissance movies came out, but I find them to be superior in every way to most of the earlier era movies.  Not only great animation, but actual defined plots and characters.  A lot of the older movies I just find to be irritating (looking at you Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland, and parts of Snow White and Cinderella).  Just a lot of filler and screwball antics that probably appeal to many, but I prefer a plot.
• Cinderella was actually the best Disney princess before Ariel.  I know a lot of people knock her for being bland, but to me she was the only Disney princess with an actual personality.  Snow White and Aurora were ciphers.  Cinderella was meek, but seemed like a nice person who resented her situation.  There was that one scene where she is mopping the floor while her stepsisters are practicing their singing, and she tells the dog: "I'd better go interrupt their music lesson," with such snark that I almost clapped.

[Constant Viewer]

50 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Cinderella was actually the best Disney princess before Ariel.  I know a lot of people knock her for being bland, but to me she was the only Disney princess with an actual personality.  Snow White and Aurora were ciphers.  Cinderella was meek, but seemed like a nice person who resented her situation.  There was that one scene where she is mopping the floor while her stepsisters are practicing their singing, and she tells the dog: "I'd better go interrupt their music lesson," with such snark that I almost clapped.

Totally agree! For a while I was dismissive of Cinderella, but re-watching it recently I agree that she is kind, but has sense of humor. Snow White just always struck me as very, very young. I do like Aurora, but the fairy godmothers steal the movie.

Maybe they didn't expect princesses to have much personality. I feel Alice and Wendy (both voiced by Kathryn Beaumont) were less bland.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Constant Viewer

[Brn2bwild]

2 hours ago, Constant Viewer said:

Totally agree! For a while I was dismissive of Cinderella, but re-watching it recently I agree that she is kind, but has sense of humor. Snow White just always struck me as very, very young. I do like Aurora, but the fairy godmothers steal the movie.

Maybe they didn't expect princesses to have much personality. I feel Alice and Wendy (both voiced by Kathryn Beaumont) were less bland.

Agreed about the fairy godmothers in Sleeping Beauty!  And true, Alice and Wendy were less bland, but none of the Disney women (including the pets) had much agency or personality.  Even Lady in Lady in the Tramp was passive (though I loved her interactions with her human family).  I think the first active female heroine might have been Bianca in the Rescuers!

[ruby24]

That's why I always defend Ariel from the people who complain that The Little Mermaid is sexist. She was the first Disney princess who drove the plot of her own story, rather than being reactive. SHE wanted something, SHE went after it, SHE made the choice, even the bad choice- it was hers. She wasn't really tricked by Ursula when she gave her that deal, she laid out those harsh terms candidly and Ariel ACCEPTED them fully conscious of what she was gambling on.

I hate it when people say stuff like she's too selfish or not a good model for young girls because of the choice she made to give up her voice, etc. That is the STORY! These decisions were part of her personality in service of the story being told- does every female heroine in these movies have to be perfect? Have to make the right decisions, have to be completely selfless- do they all HAVE to be role models and innocent victims that things just happen to? Her character was that of a selfish, stubborn teenager and her decisions are what drive the plot of the movie, and that's why I still love it.

Edited August 9, 2020 by ruby24

[Luckylyn]

4 hours ago, ruby24 said:

That's why I always defend Ariel from the people who complain that The Little Mermaid is sexist. She was the first Disney princess who drove the plot of her own story, rather than being reactive. SHE wanted something, SHE went after it, SHE made the choice, even the bad choice- it was hers. She wasn't really tricked by Ursula when she gave her that deal, she laid out those harsh terms candidly and Ariel ACCEPTED them fully conscious of what she was gambling on.

I hate it when people say stuff like she's too selfish or not a good model for young girls because of the choice she made to give up her voice, etc. That is the STORY! These decisions were part of her personality in service of the story being told- does every female heroine in these movies have to be perfect? Have to make the right decisions, have to be completely selfless- do they all HAVE to be role models and innocent victims that things just happen to? Her character was that of a selfish, stubborn teenager and her decisions are what drive the plot of the movie, and that's why I still love it.

I never saw Ariel’s choices as sexist.  “Part of Your World” establishes that Ariel’s desire to learn about the human world was about her personal interest.  I never saw Ariel as giving up her voice for Eric.  I saw Ariel as unhappy with her life and willing to make sacrifices to achieve her goal to experience the human world.  Ariel’s motivations are more about feeling stifled by her father and her own curiosity about the human world than they are her feelings for Eric.  She makes the mistake of trusting Ursula but that doesn’t invalidate Ariel’s desires.  Making mistakes is part of her growth as a person independent from her father.  I never saw her as giving up the sea for a man at the end.  I saw her as someone who was unhappy at home, wanted to live a new life, made sacrifices to achieve that goal, and found happiness.  Eric was part of it but not the whole reason for it.  He’s like the icing on the cake for Ariel.  I worry that the new Little Mermaid will overcorrect something that I never saw as wrong in the first place.  

[Spartan Girl]

I agree with everything said about Ariel, and would like to add that Triton pretty much drove Ariel right into Ursula's path by refusing to listen to her and coming down hard on her by destroying her grotto. 

[starri]

10 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Maybe I'm just biased because I was actually alive when the Renaissance movies came out, but I find them to be superior in every way to most of the earlier era movies.  Not only great animation, but actual defined plots and characters.

I run into issues of the classic movies where not only does it bug me that the princesses don't really have any agency--or when they do, it's almost entirely predicated on chasing men--but looking back on the early movies knowing more about animation and film generally, it's REALLY obvious that a lot of them are heavily if not entirely rotoscoped.  This is not the say that Walt Disney didn't make a lot of technical innovations, but SNOW WHITE lost a lot for me when I realized that she's an actress that's been painted over.

And that's before you get into what happened to the animation quality after Walt died.  Leaving aside the recycled assets in some of the movies (ROBIN HOOD is particularly notorious for this), but the actual images are barely a step above the straight-to-video sequels from the late 90s.  I love THE RESCUERS, but if you subtracted out the fantastic performances and the story, the visual stuff is borderline unwatchable.

[scarynikki12]

So many focus on Ariel giving up her voice as payment but miss the part where Eric adored her from the moment they met on the beach and was going to propose had Ursula not cast that spell on him. In other words, Ariel not only won but she won ahead of schedule! Ursula had to cheat to get what she wanted since her ultimate goal was to take down Triton. If Ursula hadn't been watching and had just relaxed for those three days waiting for Ariel to fail then Ariel's voice would have returned, Eric would have assumed that she lost it due to a bad cold (or would have believed her if she'd told him the truth), and they would have lived happily ever after.

I also agree on Cinderella. She lives a shit life and makes the best out of it but she wanted one night to dress up and have some fun.

I'm not a fan of Snow White but I lay the blame on the voice actor. That high squeak makes me want to break things so I have a hard time watching that movie.

I love Aurora and I will argue that the fairies are the main characters so I'm ok with her supporting role. Sleeping Beauty has been my favorite Disney movie my whole life and it's because of the fairies. Flora, Fauna, Merryweather, and Maleficent are just outstanding and I applaud the creative team at Disney for how well crafted they are. And Maleficent will always be my favorite Disney villain. She's perfect.

[kathyk24]

16 hours ago, ruby24 said:

That's why I always defend Ariel from the people who complain that The Little Mermaid is sexist. She was the first Disney princess who drove the plot of her own story, rather than being reactive. SHE wanted something, SHE went after it, SHE made the choice, even the bad choice- it was hers. She wasn't really tricked by Ursula when she gave her that deal, she laid out those harsh terms candidly and Ariel ACCEPTED them fully conscious of what she was gambling on.

I hate it when people say stuff like she's too selfish or not a good model for young girls because of the choice she made to give up her voice, etc. That is the STORY! These decisions were part of her personality in service of the story being told- does every female heroine in these movies have to be perfect? Have to make the right decisions, have to be completely selfless- do they all HAVE to be role models and innocent victims that things just happen to? Her character was that of a selfish, stubborn teenager and her decisions are what drive the plot of the movie, and that's why I still love it.

I think Disney female characters who are independent are unfairly called brats. Lilo from Lilo and Stitch and Merida from Brave get treated badly by some fans. I never understood why Merida's skill in archery was considered to be negative. 

[Spartan Girl]

Just now, kathyk24 said:

I think Disney female characters who are independent are unfairly called brats. Lilo from Lilo and Stitch and Merida from Brave get treated badly by some fans. I never understood why Merida's skill in archery was considered to be negative. 

Weeeeell, in Merida's case more people were mad about her rashly calling her own mother a beast and then basically poisoning her with that tart the witch gave her. Granted, she probably didn't think that it was going to hurt her mother and certainly didn't intend for her to get turned into a bear, but still.

But in fairness to Merida, she owned up to her actions in the end, realized that Elinor though strict did love her, and understood what she was trying to teach her. And Elinor, in turn, once she saw that Merida could lead in her own right, decided that tradition could be tweaked a little so Merida wouldn't have be be rushed into marriage.

[chitowngirl]

21 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Cinderella was actually the best Disney princess before Ariel.  I know a lot of people knock her for being bland, but to me she was the only Disney princess with an actual personality.  Snow White and Aurora were ciphers.  Cinderella was meek, but seemed like a nice person who resented her situation.  There was that one scene where she is mopping the floor while her stepsisters are practicing their singing, and she tells the dog: "I'd better go interrupt their music lesson," with such snark that I almost clapped.

There’s that little pause with raised eyebrows and amused look just before she says “music lesson”!

[shoregirl]

Howard was very good. I loved hearing him sing on demos . 

   many of the songs he wrote are among the greatest Disney songs of all time. Part of that World may be my favorite Disney song ever so the fact that ( I think) Jeffrey Katzenberg wanted to cut it is crazy. Poor Unfortunate Souls is my favorite villian song too. 

  

16 minutes ago, kathyk24 said:

I think Disney female characters who are independent are unfairly called brats. Lilo from Lilo and Stitch and Merida from Brave get treated badly by some fans. I never understood why Merida's skill in archery was considered to be negative. 

 Maybe  that's changing a little. Moana is independent and I don't think she was called a brat.

 

[kathyk24]

9 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Weeeeell, in Merida's case more people were mad about her rashly calling her own mother a beast and then basically poisoning her with that tart the witch gave her. Granted, she probably didn't think that it was going to hurt her mother and certainly didn't intend for her to get turned into a bear, but still.

But in fairness to Merida, she owned up to her actions in the end, realized that Elinor though strict did love her, and understood what she was trying to teach her. And Elinor, in turn, once she saw that Merida could lead in her own right, decided that tradition could be tweaked a little so Merida wouldn't have be be rushed into marriage.

Elinor should have let Merida be herself instead of trying to force her to be someone she wasn't like Ariel and Triton

[Annber03]

23 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I love Aurora and I will argue that the fairies are the main characters so I'm ok with her supporting role. Sleeping Beauty has been my favorite Disney movie my whole life and it's because of the fairies. Flora, Fauna, Merryweather, and Maleficent are just outstanding and I applaud the creative team at Disney for how well crafted they are. And Maleficent will always be my favorite Disney villain. She's perfect.

Sleeping Beauty has long been one of my mom's favorite Disney movies, alongside Cinderella :). 

Maleficent kinda scared me a little when I was a kid. Which just further proves how great a villain she was. 

[Trini]

7 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

7 hours ago, kathyk24 said:

I think Disney female characters who are independent are unfairly called brats. Lilo from Lilo and Stitch and Merida from Brave get treated badly by some fans. I never understood why Merida's skill in archery was considered to be negative. 

Weeeeell, in Merida's case more people were mad about her rashly calling her own mother a beast and then basically poisoning her with that tart the witch gave her. Granted, she probably didn't think that it was going to hurt her mother and certainly didn't intend for her to get turned into a bear, but still.

But in fairness to Merida, she owned up to her actions in the end, realized that Elinor though strict did love her, and understood what she was trying to teach her. And Elinor, in turn, once she saw that Merida could lead in her own right, decided that tradition could be tweaked a little so Merida wouldn't have be be rushed into marriage.

I mean, even if Merida was truly a "brat", the whole point of the movie is her character growth.

 

[Dandesun]

I mean, we can break down the princesses:

Snow White: She is such a product of Golden Age Hollywood what was popular at the time it's extremely difficult to take that voice as anything other than a rather grating museum piece. She's not especially strong willed but she does manage to work the domestic servant aspect to the hilt. She's obviously super sheltered to the point where she doesn't know of the existence of dwarves and somehow thinks the house she stumbles upon in the woods is populated by children and decides to make herself useful by cleaning the place? At least they only had her fall for the Witch/Queen's poison the one time as opposed to the multiple attempts in every fairy story of Snow White I've ever read. (Seriously, she should have been allowed to die out of sheer stupidity.)

Cinderella: She does get a bad rap. Maybe she is a bit passive but, then, is she really? If we want to talk reality in terms of story, she had no rights and could not fight back. Ever. She was her step-mother's property until she wed and then she would become her husband's property. She took care of three selfish twats and just wanted one night at the ball... that was clear in inviting her as well as her step-sisters. My mother has always loved Cindy because 'she was so good.' Good isn't easy. What's more, she lost faith and that's when the Fairy Godmother showed up at last. That whole tale is basically a 'good things come to those who wait... and are good themselves' trope. Fine, whatever, but I'm not going to look down my nose at Cindy for coming up with a way to survive her daily abuse the only way she knew how.

Aurora: She had some snap to her... but she's basically treated like the MacGuffin in her own story. Still, she can take care of herself (dark fairies aside) and isn't royally spoiled. Then she falls in love and discovers 'Oh, well... we've been lying to you for your entire life. Everything you know? It's going away. Now. You're going to the palace where all of the skills you've actually got are going to be useless because you'll have a fuckton of servants. Oh, you're getting married to someone you've never met, too. Surprise! Why aren't you happy?'

Ariel: Curious, strong-willed, rash decision maker... still extremely likable and able to roll with the punches. So well, in fact, that the person who made the deal didn't much like it and cheated her ass off in order to win. In a lot of ways, it doesn't surprise me at all that Ariel ended up falling for the prince who didn't like statues made of him, jumped on flaming boats to save his dog, took in the naked weirdo he found on the beach because she kind of looked familiar and his dog liked her, and ended up stabbing Cthulu in the chest with a risen shipwreck. These two were made for each other!

Belle: Belle is perfect. I will hear nothing else.

Merida: Had the misfortune of taking after her father more than her mother in a society that didn't much like that. Her entire story was a hero's journey where she had to realize she couldn't just do whatever she wanted but that she also didn't have to do exactly as her mother wanted either. It was a coming of age story and a story about a parent and child dealing with the child's independence over what was 'expected' and they came out the other side all the better for it.

Elsa: Merida opened the door for hero's journeys. Elsa had to be able to accept this power she was born with despite getting the worst advice from her parents EVER. And that what she was born with wasn't an inherent danger to her sister. There is a reason the queer community identifies with Elsa so much. 'Conceal don't feel' her being who she is hurt Anna, running away was the only time she felt free to be herself. It's pretty powerful.

Anna: She just needed to interact with more people and the world around her to realize that the first guy she meets isn't the love of her life. (That would be the second guy she meets.) But also, she needed to rebuild the bonds between her and her sister in order to take care of their home.

Moana: She also had a hero's journey. She got to make mistakes, make discoveries, and ultimately triumph and save her home. Moana's awesome.

I didn't include Mulan or Megara or Tiana as they didn't start out at princesses. (Megara's status at the end is questionable because I don't know what Hercules is considered at that point other than Hero.) And I didn't include Pocahontas because they kind of fucked that whole movie up anyway.

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

I didn't include Mulan or Megara or Tiana as they didn't start out at princesses. (Megara's status at the end is questionable because I don't know what Hercules is considered at that point other than Hero.) And I didn't include Pocahontas because they kind of fucked that whole movie up anyway.

What about Rapunzel and Jasmine?

[dewelar]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

What about Rapunzel and Jasmine?

Also, since you're including Pixar, there's Atta.

(Also Eilonwy, but nobody remembers her.)

Edited August 10, 2020 by dewelar

[Dandesun]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

What about Rapunzel and Jasmine?

Just completely forgot them is all:

Rapunzel: It's weird because you can say that Rapunzel is another version of Aurora... except this time, she's not sleeping for a significant part of the story. Rapunzel also has the chance to come to terms with the fact that she's been lied to her whole life. While she's allowed to escape, experience the world somewhat, interact with people, realize that not everyone is out to get her, etc, she also has to share her story with Flynn/Eugene, Rapunzel has been lied to and manipulated by the one raising her much like Aurora... except in Aurora's case, it was skipped over and done to protect her as opposed to protect what she could do for the antagonist. We also got to see that Rapunzel developed a lot of skills while she was locked in her tower. Rapunzel is Aurora done right. She's an active participant in her own emancipation as opposed to a piece that gets moved by others more than her own will.

Jasmine: When you look at the movie alone, Jasmine doesn't really get much. She's smart and physically capable (if her pole vaulting moment is any indication) but also deeply sheltered. She doesn't like being bartered for someone else to take the throne and only being seen as her title. Ultimately, she gets to make her own choice about who she wants to be with and that's... it. She takes one for the team by suggesting she was magicked into lusting for Jafar so she proves she's quick on her feet. I mean, it's more Aladdin's movie than hers and she gets way more development in the series. But she does have a tiger as her bestie and that's more than anyone else can say.

[starri]

3 hours ago, Dandesun said:

And I didn't include Pocahontas because they kind of fucked that whole movie up anyway.

I'm not the biggest fan of Lindsay Ellis, but she did a great video about how Moana worked and Pocahontas didn't despite basically telling the same story.

 

 

[Spartan Girl]

23 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Jasmine: When you look at the movie alone, Jasmine doesn't really get much. She's smart and physically capable (if her pole vaulting moment is any indication) but also deeply sheltered. She doesn't like being bartered for someone else to take the throne and only being seen as her title. Ultimately, she gets to make her own choice about who she wants to be with and that's... it. She takes one for the team by suggesting she was magicked into lusting for Jafar so she proves she's quick on her feet. I mean, it's more Aladdin's movie than hers and she gets way more development in the series. But she does have a tiger as her bestie and that's more than anyone else can say.

Which is why I liked that she got to do more in the live action version. Giving her political ambitions and her own solo song was a good move. She does get to do more in the animated sequels and TV series too.

[starri]

I'm going to say something controversial:  I liked the live action Aladdin.  A lot.

[ruby24]

I would still argue that even though Aladdin is Aladdin's movie (obviously), Jasmine still gets a lot of screen time and relative agency for being a love interest. Even compared to the next one, The Lion King, she has way more to do and is a much bigger part of the movie than Nala, for example, whose only dialogue in the whole movie practically is about pushing/encouraging Simba to take his place and save the day, etc. At least Jasmine has her own desires and wants.

[Spartan Girl]

38 minutes ago, starri said:

I'm going to say something controversial:  I liked the live action Aladdin.  A lot.

I did too. And it doesn't mean I liked the original any less.

[Ravenya003]

The criticism of Merida in Brave always bugged me, because when you get down to it, what exactly is she railing against? Oh right, she doesn't want to be married off to a complete stranger (with all that entails). As soon as all the obnoxious loser suitors show up, I want to grab Elinor's ear and say: "really? You want to give away your lovely daughter away to one of THESE duds?" 

I feel that the movie wanted to do a "both sides were wrong/both sides had a point" sort of story, but as soon as you step back and look at what Merida objected to, then the argument is over. Forcing anyone to marry against their will is bad; always has been, always will be (I know the response to this is "that's how it was back then", but c'mon, it's a DISNEY movie. No one would have respected Merida if she'd meekly given herself up to one of those losers, and I feel like the script deliberately made Merida more bratty than she needed to be in order to garner sympathy for Elinor).

It's a pity, since the entire thing would have worked better if Merida was fighting against becoming a future leader/queen/heir to the throne because she was too wrapped up in her own interests and refused to take the responsibility before her. That would have been something I could sympathize with Elinor over, since we've all gotta grow up sometime. 

And it's worth pointing out that Merida had no idea the cake was going to turn her mother into a bear; she believed it would simply let her see Merida's side of the situation, which is not at all unreasonable. 

I also think that Tiana (not Merida) deserves SO MUCH credit for introducing the concept of a princess who had a very discernible FLAW that worked against her. In Tiana's case, it was her determination to run herself ragged in pursuit of a goal to the detriment of her own health and happiness, which very much paved the way for the personality flaws found in Merida, Rapunzel and Elsa, whose stories are just as much about overcoming their own internal obstacles as their external ones. That wasn't possible until Tiana came along. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Ravenya003

[Spartan Girl]

All good points @Ravenya003!

While on the subject of crappy parenting, there's one moment of Moana that's always bugged me: the way her dad bit her head off when she suggested sailing out to find more food for the island since the fish was running out and crops were going bad. He acted like she was being selfish and using it as an excuse to leave the island when that wasn't true at all. At that point she was taking her role as future ruler seriously and trying to help their people. Her suggesting to venture out for more resources was practical, and her father was just being a control freak.

Don't even get me started on Miguel's family in Coco -- not a Disney princess movie, but still fits the pattern.

[tennisgurl]

4 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Don't even get me started on Miguel's family in Coco -- not a Disney princess movie, but still fits the pattern.

Even by the standards of the many, many over the top overprotective, controlling, obsessed with making sure their kids live only by the standards their parents live by Disney parents, Miguel's family was a lot. At least most of the obsessively overprotective parents were trying to protect their kids from what they saw as an actual threat to their lives, while Miguel's family has been running on Footloose logic for generations and are trying to keep him away from the terrible evil that is...music. Something bad happened that was tangentially connected to music before most of the still living relatives were even born, so now they hate all forms of music, even as simple as letting this poor kid buy a cheap guitar. 

In general, Disney parents have a bad tendency to overreact, and be so overprotective that it backfires and tends to lead to the very problems that they were trying to prevent in the first place. That or they are so insistent that their kids conform to societal expectations that when they dont, it, again, just creates even bigger problems. Triton wont let Ariel learn about the human world? Ariel runs off to make a deal with a sea witch. Ana and Elsas parents keep them locked up to keep Elsa from accidentally losing her powers? Elsa becomes so repressed that she never learns how to use her powers and they go haywire, and Ana is so sheltered that she gets engaged in five seconds to the first guy she meets who her family doesn't employ, who turns out to be a villain. The Sultan wont let Jasmine leave the palace? She has no idea how the world works so she almost gets her hand chopped off after leaving for two seconds because she doesn't know how money works. Miguel's grandma smashes his guitar and tells him that he cant ever so much as hum? He runs off with the guitar he grabbed and falls into the afterlife. Moanas parents wont send anyone out to sea to look for more resources when she points out that they need to and she wants to go? She grabs a boat that she can hardly steer and goes out into the ocean on her own. This also tends to be most prominent with parents of Disney princesses, but not exclusively. There are exceptions of course, like Maurice, who is nothing but supportive of Belle in his quirky way, but its a really specific pattern when it comes to Disney parenting, even if the parents always learn a lesson by the end about letting their kids live their own lives. Or they die, because Disney. 

Interestingly, you could see Gothel from Rapunzel as a sort of deconstruction of the overprotective Disney parent archetype. Much like several Disney parents, she kept her "daughter" locked up and isolated from the world, ostentatiously for her own protection, she blows off her "daughters" desire to explore the world with a quick "its dangerous and bad and no because I said so" and this leads to her "daughter" being so sheltered that she has no clue how the world works and this leads to problems for her later on. Of course, Gothel is a full on villain who is called out as an abusive parent who is only hiding Rapunzel for selfish reasons after kidnapping her, her keeping her from the outside world isn't really to protect Rapunzel, its to keep Gothel getting magical re-charges, and while Rapunzels lack of knowledge about the world and cheerful cluelessness is often played for laughs, its also played for sadness that she has been so lonely for so long and how that affected her self esteem. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

While on the subject of crappy parenting, there's one moment of Moana that's always bugged me: the way her dad bit her head off when she suggested sailing out to find more food for the island since the fish was running out and crops were going bad. He acted like she was being selfish and using it as an excuse to leave the island when that wasn't true at all. At that point she was taking her role as future ruler seriously and trying to help their people. Her suggesting to venture out for more resources was practical, and her father was just being a control freak.

He seriously overreacted but at least they gave him a reason with the backstory about his best friend drowning. I thought that was a big improvement over previous overprotective parents. 

[Mabinogia]

12 minutes ago, Dani said:

He seriously overreacted but at least they gave him a reason with the backstory about his best friend drowning. I thought that was a big improvement over previous overprotective parents. 

This is true and it did make it about Moana's safety in that he was terrified that she would drown like his friend did. So his over-protectiveness felt grounded in a way Ana and Elsa's parents, who clearly just didn't want to deal with the issue of Elsa's powers, or Merida's mother who just wanted her to do as she was told didn't. 

It is interesting to look at the progression from Snow White, who was basically a pretty little girl that things happened to but her prettiness and sweetness meant she got a prince to Moana who doesn't end up with even a hint of a love interest and was being actively groomed to take over as ruler of her people. 

I love Moana's parents for never once suggesting she had to get married so there was a male ruler of her people. Exactly the opposite of poor Merida whose parents never even thought could rule on her own merit but needed to hook up with some loser for political reasons. Now, one could say it's because Moana's people were isolated so there were no apparent neighboring kingdoms to politic with, but I think it is also a part of Disney's natural progression towards figuring out girls can be more than pretty objects who just react to their world. 

[kathyk24]

On 8/10/2020 at 7:31 PM, starri said:

I'm going to say something controversial:  I liked the live action Aladdin.  A lot.

I hate the live action remakes because I think its lazy storytelling. Disney has created some interesting animated movies so I don't understand why live action movies have to follow the same formula.

[Athena]

This video was probably linked earlier in the thread but it's a good one about Cinderella and feminine traits in female leads in general:

 

It highlights her strength is her feminine traits.  I love Mulan and other female leads who become independent and take on more traditional masculine traits of physical strength. However, protagonists who display kindness and perseverance are strong as well especially in the face of adversity and abuse. 

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Athena said:

This video was probably linked earlier in the thread but it's a good one about Cinderella and feminine traits in female leads in general:

 

It highlights her strength is her feminine traits.  I love Mulan and other female leads who become independent and take on more traditional masculine traits of physical strength. However, protagonists who display kindness and perseverance are strong as well especially in the face of adversity and abuse. 

I love that video.

[ruby24]

I watched Howard today! Definitely teared up. I could have seriously watched a whole other hour of it going through every detail that went into the making of Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast and Aladdin (although there's other documentaries that go into it, like Waking Sleeping Beauty, and the docs on the special features of TLM and BATB blu-rays).

I really believe he's someone who deserves the full biopic treatment, because overall he's still so little known (even if his work isn't). And every time I hear another interview from someone who recalls working on one of the movies with him, I hear something new about just how much in control he was of those films. People don't quite realize that enough. I saw one once with Peter Schneider, the former animation VP who said that Howard liked being at Disney because they had actually given him complete creative control, which is pretty rare. I'd go so far as to say the Disney Renaissance never would have happened had he never come to Disney. And that's a big deal, because Disney wouldn't be what it is today, if not for the Renaissance launching them back from the dead, basically.

[Guest]

Kelly Marie Tran on being the first Southeast Asian actress to lead a Disney animated film

 

[Spartan Girl]

Yes! Kelly Marie Tran becoming a Disney Princess is what she deserves after all the crap the toxic racist Star Wars fans put her through!

Edited August 28, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[starri]

Wait, I thought Cassie Steele was the star.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, starri said:

Wait, I thought Cassie Steele was the star.

She was. There wasn’t any explanation given but they also changed the creative team behind the movie. There are now two new directors in charge. One of the original directors is now listed as a co-directors and the other is no longer involved. They also added a co-writer. 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Guest

[Spartan Girl]

So I watched the new Mulan last night and it got me thinking about the original cartoon. The new one is a completely different story and that was fine, I didn't want a repeat of The Lion King.

Let's answer this once and for all: does anyone really think Shang was bisexual? Because despite what the internet thinks I really didn't see it. He didn't even like "Ping" all that much until "he" got better at fighting and saved his life. Yes, he was pissed when he found out Mulan was a woman, but that's because he was the commanding officer and as the Emperor's douchey little assistant kept reminding him, any antics among the soldiers in his squad would be a reflection on him. Yes, he felt betrayed and deceived etc etc, but I never got the impression that he had feelings for "Ping" that were more than respect and friendship...at least before he knew about Mulan's identity. That's just my opinion.

Of course I'll always love how completely lost he was trying to talk to Mulan afterward. "You...you fight good." Classic.

[Dandesun]

On 9/5/2020 at 5:27 AM, Spartan Girl said:

So I watched the new Mulan last night and it got me thinking about the original cartoon. The new one is a completely different story and that was fine, I didn't want a repeat of The Lion King.

Let's answer this once and for all: does anyone really think Shang was bisexual? Because despite what the internet thinks I really didn't see it. He didn't even like "Ping" all that much until "he" got better at fighting and saved his life. Yes, he was pissed when he found out Mulan was a woman, but that's because he was the commanding officer and as the Emperor's douchey little assistant kept reminding him, any antics among the soldiers in his squad would be a reflection on him. Yes, he felt betrayed and deceived etc etc, but I never got the impression that he had feelings for "Ping" that were more than respect and friendship...at least before he knew about Mulan's identity. That's just my opinion.

Of course I'll always love how completely lost he was trying to talk to Mulan afterward. "You...you fight good." Classic.

While I can certainly see your point, I think I like the idea of Shang being bisexual better. No, he didn't like Ping at all because Ping was an obvious detriment to the unit. However, Ping proved himself repeatedly and even became a trusted member of said unit. I think I like the concept of Shang coming to admire Ping as a fighter, and an intelligent tactician, and possibly being attracted to him in some way more than the idea of Ping got good at stuff, ooh! A woman! Ummm... now I'm conflicted because I instantly want to bone her.

Shang feeling betrayed because someone he trusted was revealed to be deceiving him is normal. But then everyone's like 'Dude, go GET her now that it's totally heteronormative and stuff!' I just like the concept of Shang developing legit feelings for Mulan as Ping, feeling that betrayal, and then coming to terms with the fact that this person he felt so strongly for, and came to trust so deeply, didn't change at all, really. I think it's absolutely a way for those who identify as bisexual or trans to celebrate the concept of the genitalia doesn't matter, the person does.

[Spartan Girl]

54 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

While I can certainly see your point, I think I like the idea of Shang being bisexual better. No, he didn't like Ping at all because Ping was an obvious detriment to the unit. However, Ping proved himself repeatedly and even became a trusted member of said unit. I think I like the concept of Shang coming to admire Ping as a fighter, and an intelligent tactician, and possibly being attracted to him in some way more than the idea of Ping got good at stuff, ooh! A woman! Ummm... now I'm conflicted because I instantly want to bone her.

Shang feeling betrayed because someone he trusted was revealed to be deceiving him is normal. But then everyone's like 'Dude, go GET her now that it's totally heteronormative and stuff!' I just like the concept of Shang developing legit feelings for Mulan as Ping, feeling that betrayal, and then coming to terms with the fact that this person he felt so strongly for, and came to trust so deeply, didn't change at all, really. I think it's absolutely a way for those who identify as bisexual or trans to celebrate the concept of the genitalia doesn't matter, the person does.

Hey, I think it would have been great if Disney had been ballsy enough to establish more of a relationship between Ping and Shang as confidants, friends, etc before the big reveal, thus making the bisexual implications stronger. But it was 1998, so whatever.

Apparently in an early version of the movie Mulan and Shang were betrothed by their families and and briefly met before the war. Caught that little deleted scene on Disney+ and that Shang was an even bigger dork with women: his starstruck reaction to Mulan all dolled is "You're worth five pigs!" because that was her bride price her parents set. Needless to say, Mulan is not impressed. LOL.

But that's why I've come to love Shang, he's an adorkable guy trying to be a hardass.  

Edited September 9, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[Guest]

 

[Brn2bwild]

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I didn't love the Raya trailer.  Partly because it was the same "rubber Barbie" animation style that produced Frozen, etc., when the previous art made it seem like they might go with a more painterly 2D/3D merged style.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I didn't love the Raya trailer.  Partly because it was the same "rubber Barbie" animation style that produced Frozen, etc., when the previous art made it seem like they might go with a more painterly 2D/3D merged style.

Rubber Barbie?

[Brn2bwild]

11 hours ago, Dani said:

Rubber Barbie?

Where the skin doesn't seem real, etc.... obviously it's not real, just as 2D animation isn't.  I think that 3D animated characters--especially women characters--just stray more into the uncanny valley than 2D characters.  From the initial art, I guess I hoped they would be moving more in a 2D direction.

[BetterButter]

 

[BetterButter]

Raya and the Last Dragon headed directly to Disney Plus with Premier Access

[Guest]

They also announced Disney+ series based on Big Hero 6, Zootopia, Moana and Princess and the Frog. 

[Spartan Girl]

And a Lightyear spinoff with Chris Evans as the new Buzz! Upgrade!!!!!