S01.E01: From The Ashes Of Tragedy

[elzin]

A very interesting take on the case is Dominic Dunn' s book called the Another City, Not My Own. It's fictionalized, but barely. I know this series is based on different source material, but there is so much detail about celebrity and the la culture during that time in his book.

 

It was such a good book, and I've read many about this case. I am half hoping to see a Dunne lookalike somewhere. If I were a producer, I'd throw him in, even non-speaking. RIP, you incredible man.

 

Speaking of, a lot of the participants in this have since passed so it gives it another layer of grimness.

 

The bath stuff was supposedly true, from what I've read. The most logical theory is that Nicole wanted to hit on Ron or have OJ *think* she was and it just went horribly wrong.  I've lit candles when I took a bath, but like one, maybe two.  But if I wanted to seduce a younger guy, maybe I might go a little overboard.

 

I really liked this episode. Sure, not everyone is a doppelganger, but I think the actors do a fine enough job that they get the basics right. Like you can see what they're going for. It's more of an impressionist painting than a photograph and for me it works.  The actor playing Nicole's sister (Lisa?) looked so much like her I thought they were using archival footage.

 

I didn't watch the trial entirely (really, it was impossible!), but I followed it closely. I think he did it (or in the unlikely scenario he didn't, it was someone acting on his behalf and he was involved). I was devastated by the verdict.  I too have served on juries that involved exponentially FAR LESS evidence and trials that took days, not months, but it took us longer in real time to deliberate, much less proportional time. I can't imagine how awful it must have been for the jurors, but it doesn't mean they came to the right conclusion.

 

I'm having a real 90s nostalgia year so far in 2016. Watching OJ on tv, new X-Files episodes, Hillary and Bernie (I lived in VT) everywhere, some old friends finally joining facebook, Law & Order reruns on tv all the time again... I need to go dig up some flannels and wear them with some velvet Mary Janes.

[VCRTracking]

A very interesting take on the case is Dominic Dunn' s book called the Another City, Not My Own. It's fictionalized, but barely. I know this series is based on different source material, but there is so much detail about celebrity and the la culture during that time in his book.

 

I remember his articles about the trial in Vanity Fair. I think it was either Dunne or Dunne quoting someone who said about Nicole Simpson's funeral "I've never seen so many black miniskirts at a funeral!" I also remember the picture of him in the courtroom and his jaw hanging down in shock at the "Not Guilty" verdict.

Edited February 3, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Constantinople]

When OJ was in Kim's bedroom with the gun, and Bob comes in and begs him to not shoot himself in her bedroom... Wtf dude.. You don't want him to shoot himself in your daughters bedroom, but you're OK with him screwing his gf in your daughters bed. Ick.

 

To be fair, there were posters of Jonathan Taylor Thomas and Joey Lawrence on the wall.  Probably the most effective abstinence devices known to humankind

[Anela]

^^ Me, too. :)  (elzin.) I suddenly have the urge to watch My So-Called Life. 

[VanillaBeanne]

This did not happen. Fuhrman never admitted to planting evidence.

In the Fuhrman tapes, he admitted to lots of police misconduct over the course of his career, including beating the crap out up blacks, pulling over blacks for no reason and it's been 20 years but I recall he also said planting evidence. If he didn't say planting evidence specifically, every other act of gross police misconduct he bragged about allowed the defense to make the case that key evidence at the Simpson home was found by a rogue dishonest and racist cop who had a history of playing fast and loose with the law to get "n------s". Furhman pled the fifth when asked if he planted evidence. Johnny Cochrane did not make Mark Furman out to be anything that Furhman did not already admit to being... on tape.

The prosecution didn't refute this - only argued he was boasting and making it up.

Edited February 3, 2016 by VanillaBeanne

[Kbilly]

I heard the completely unnecessary "Kourtney, Khloe stop running" from the Evil Kris Jenner character and I was out.

 

I hated the "Not in Kimmy's bedroom!" line just as much! Sad that Kris and Faye knew so much about the abuse...

 

I liked it and like everyone has said, it totally brings you back. It's so insane how big of a deal it was--I remember they put the verdict on live on all the TV's at my Catholic high school. And the yearbook staff took reaction shots of classrooms and they were in the yearbook! Can't imagine something similar happening now. It's unreal. 

 

I kind of thought Evan Peters would play Kato since he does all the American Horror Stories.

 

This has already become a "Did that really happen?" as someone said upthread, launching me into endless google searches!

 

 

[Tunia]

Er...what? That makes no sense. Robert Kardashian was OJ's defense attorney. And like it or not, Kris was close friends with Nicole. How could there be a movie about the OJ crime/trial and not have the Kardashians involved?

 

...not to mention there are still persistent rumors that OJ is Khloe's real father.

 

With regard to the call out of Kourtney and Kim's names in the funeral scene, I'm giving production some leeway b/c that's a pretty standard way of establishing characters in an early episode.  In case a viewer had not already figured out that was "Kris" at the funeral, she was defined by calling out to the girls.  It's much like the scene where Shapiro takes the phone call at the restaurant and announces "This is Robert Shapiro".  I've seen this done in many "true life" shows where it's important that you recognize the characters early on, and it's an easy method of confirming who they're supposed to be.

 

That having been said, I think most of the characters are well portrayed other than Cuba Gooding as O.J. and Travolta as Shapiro, for the same reasons others have already mentioned.  I think Steve Carell would have been a better fit for Shapiro, and find Travolta's look very distracting.  My vote for the best portrayed is Sterling Brown as Darden, and I'm looking forward to Nathan Lane's appearance as F. Lee Bailey.

 

ETA:

I loved the 1st episode, and I believe all throughout this series im going to ask "did that really happen?". Off the bat, when the guy walking his dog saw the other dog with blood all over its paws and followed it to the crime scene.

 

This was actually how Nicole and Ron were discovered.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Tunia

[RemoteControlFreak]

Speaking of, a lot of the participants in this have since passed so it gives it another layer of grimness.

Isn't it just Johnnie Cochran and Robert Kardashian who have died?  That's not "a lot of the participants."  Am I missing someone?  Does Nicole's father count?

[GHScorpiosRule]

That having been said, I think most of the characters are well portrayed other than Cuba Gooding as O.J. and Travolta as Shapiro, for the same reasons others have already mentioned.  Travolta's look is very distracting.  My vote for the best portrayed is Sterling Brown as Darden, and I'm looking forward to Nathan Lane's appearance as F. Lee Bailey.

 

This. Just as Gooding, Jr. doesn't have the timbre of Simpson's voice, Travolta has also failed at Shapiro's, who also has a deep, baritonish voice. Travolta sounds like...Travolta. But they got the eyebrows right, so yay?

 

I also remember Marcia Clark not giving a fuck who Simpson was when Garcetti announced that they were going to prosecute Simpson. I can't wait to see that in the show, to see it; we've already seen she holds him in contempt in the early stages, and shallow note, I love how Paulson smokes the cigarettes here. She really is fantastic.  I remember her from waay back on Law & Order mothership, where she played a naive 17-year old, seduced by her murderous and murdering stepfather, who had killed her mother.

[RemoteControlFreak]

In the Fuhrman tapes, he admitted to lots of police misconduct over the course of his career, including beating the crap out up blacks, pulling over blacks for no reason and it's been 20 years but I recall he also said planting evidence. If he didn't say planting evidence specifically, every other act of gross police misconduct he bragged about allowed the defense to make the case that key evidence at the Simpson home was found by a rogue dishonest and racist cop who had a history of playing fast and loose with the law to get "n------s". Furhman pled the fifth when asked if he planted evidence. Johnny Cochrane did not make Mark Furman out to be anything that Furhman did not already admit to being... on tape.

The prosecution didn't refute this - only argued he was boasting and making it up.

Nope.   He was convicted of lying when asked if he ever used racial slurs during his career as a cop.  He never admitted to planting evidence in the Simpson case or in any other case.

 

I'm not defending him, just stating what happened.

 

I was a full grown adult during the trial and got sucked into following extremely closely. I worked at TV station at the time and the coverage was on all day. 

 

I was skeptical of this series because I'm not a big Ryan Murphy fan and a lot of the casting seemed stuntish.  But I was impressed by a lot of the performances.  Gooding may be smaller and has a higher voice than Simpson, but he nailed the nuances of his behavior.  Schwimmer (sp?) also while a lot taller than Kardashian seemed to get the deer in the headlights demeanor that Kardashian displayed at the time of the Bronco chase.  

Edited February 3, 2016 by RemoteControlFreak

[PrincessSteel]

Cuba has the entitled asshole thing down but he is just too small. His stature made the tantrum scenes borderline camp rather than menacing. When the verdict was read all those years ago I developed an instant, searing migraine and took to my bed for a day so I have no idea why I am subjecting myself to this all over again.

[elzin]

Isn't it just Johnnie Cochran and Robert Kardashian who have died?  That's not "a lot of the participants."  Am I missing someone?  Does Nicole's father count?

Writing about Dominick Dunne reminded me, and he passed almost unnoticed the day Ted Kennedy died. He was a very well-known commentator on the case. And maybe it is just the 3 of them, but I thought it was more. And 2 of the defense lawyers is a lot... even if there were about 384 of them.

 

Too bad Ron Silver is also dead because his Dershowitz was amazing.

[VanillaBeanne]

I never said he admitted to planting evidence in the OJ trial. I was referring to the furman tapes where I thought he did. If he didn't specifically say planting evidence, he admitted to police misconduct so egregious towards blacks that the defense could conceivably and reasonably argue that the glove was planted by him.

It's been 20 years so the planting evidence detail might be technically wrong but all the other other admissions of racially motives police misconduct in the furman tapes were just as damning. Not just because of the racism but because Furhman admitted to breaking the law as a cop.

Edited February 3, 2016 by VanillaBeanne

[KenyaJ]

I too have served on juries that involved exponentially FAR LESS evidence and trials that took days, not months, but it took us longer in real time to deliberate, much less proportional time. 

 

On the flip side, I served on a jury for two weeks and when we got back to the deliberation room, it took us 20 minutes to reach a verdict because we all felt the same way about the evidence that had been presented to us. The OJ jurors had months to form their impressions of the evidence and the case and if there wasn't much disagreement among them when they took their first guilty/not-guilty poll, they weren't going to have a long deliberation, regardless of whether the verdict was guilty or not guilty.

 

I've spent 5 years working as a law clerk in the federal system, and of all the criminal cases before the judges I've worked for, I can only recall two in which the juries took more than 6 hours to deliberate. Both of those involved white collar crime. Based on my experiences, I don't find it at all surprising that the OJ jury came back so quickly.

[RemoteControlFreak]

I never said he admitted to planting evidence in the OJ trial. I was referring to the furman tapes where I thought he did. If he didn't specifically say planting evidence, he admitted to police misconduct so egregious towards blacks that the defense could conceivably and reasonably argue that the glove was planted by him

Yes you did, in a post that you've since edited or deleted.

 

Again, I'm defending the truth, not Mark Fuhrman, but he never admitted to planting evidence in this case or any other.

Edited February 3, 2016 by RemoteControlFreak

[VanillaBeanne]

Look at the time stamps. I have not edited that post after you questioned it above. In fact my post was quoted by the next poster and you can see I did not change the first sentence.

The sentence could have been clearer. I'll admit that. I said he admitted to planting evidence. I was referring to the tapes where he admitted to doing so in the past, you read that to mean he admitted to planting evidence on OJ. That is not what I meant. But it's also not what I said.

If furman admitted to planting evidence on OJ, this would all be moot because the evidence would not have been admissible.

Edited February 3, 2016 by VanillaBeanne

[elzin]

Oh! I remembered another one! I bet Kato the dog is probably long gone.

[VanillaBeanne]

Not afraid to admit I was wrong on the facts.

Per this link, furman did admit to planting evidence in the past. http://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/25/opinion/the-fuhrman-tapes-and-the-lapd.html. "Mr. Fuhrman is heard boasting of routine gatherings of police officers to celebrate beating up citizens, and speaking of planting and fabricating evidence as though numerous colleagues had been involved."

However, Ito did not allow those statements in to argue that furman planted in the past and thus planted here - he only allowed the uses of the n word to undermine furmans credibility. So the jury did not hear those statements about prior planted evidence. I thought they did but it's been 20 years.

Nevertheless Furman was asked at trial if he planted evidence and he pled the fifth, which was pretty damning. I stand by my point that the defense did a very good job of portraying furman as a rogue cop whose evidence finds could not be trusted.

Edited February 3, 2016 by VanillaBeanne

[poeticlicensed]

I think for me the major issue was how the collection and handling of the blood evidence was presented by the defense. Their spin was beyond dishonest and misleading but wasn't pushed back hard enough by the DAs and ended up being acceptable because of all the racial landmines planted by the defense. Mishandled blood evidence would either degrade and no longer be of use or, if still viable, the results would be inconclusive. Improper collection, handling and storage would not, could not, and did not result in DNA "framing" an innocent person, ie: false positives. Just ask OJ's lawyers Scheck and Neufeld, who founded The Innocence Project. Oh, wait ...

 

If there was one positive that came out of the acquittal, it's that the LA crime lab had a bright light shone on it and was forced to clean up their abysmal procedures. My understanding is that after the trial, there was a major overhaul and housecleaning

Edited February 3, 2016 by poeticlicensed

[Milk-Eyed Mender]

So does David Miscavige keep whatever remains of John Travolta's acting ability in a box under heavy guard at Gold Base or something? Because Travolta's Shapiro was...surreal. In the very worst way. What is it about Scienos that they insist on casting themselves in roles beyond their skill set? Kudos to the poster who noted David Schwimmer's portrayal of Robert Kardashian as a deer in headlights. Perfect description!

[OSM Mom]

To be fair, there were posters of Jonathan Taylor Thomas and Joey Lawrence on the wall. Probably the most effective abstinence devices known to humankind

Good point.

[Cara]

Not afraid to admit I was wrong on the facts.

Per this link, furman did admit to planting evidence in the past. http://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/25/opinion/the-fuhrman-tapes-and-the-lapd.html. "Mr. Fuhrman is heard boasting of routine gatherings of police officers to celebrate beating up citizens, and speaking of planting and fabricating evidence as though numerous colleagues had been involved."

However, Ito did not allow those statements in to argue that furman planted in the past and thus planted here - he only allowed the uses of the n word to undermine furmans credibility. So the jury did not hear those statements about prior planted evidence. I thought they did but it's been 20 years.

Nevertheless Furman was asked at trial if he planted evidence and he pled the fifth, which was pretty damning. I stand by my point that the defense did a very good job of portraying furman as a rogue cop whose evidence finds could not be trusted.

He told stories about planting evidence as ideas for a screenplay. That was what was on the tapes. They may or may not have been based on an actual event. If I remember correctly he plead the 5th to every question he was asked when he was recalled to the stand. Which is what his lawyer advised him to do I'm sure. If you answer some questions but plead the fifth to others you run the risk of forfeiting you 5th amendment privilege and being held in contempt of court.

[BW Manilowe]

Got to love the irony of Johnnie Cochran saying that money is the only way to get justice.

Cuba Gooding Jr is definitely bringing the crazy as OJ. The funeral scene made my skin crawl. And if it's true that the guy had a statue of himself in his backyard, what an egomaniac.

I like Sarah Paulsen as Marcia Clark so far. But I hate that people wrote her off as a bitch, especially if that was a factor. Yes she might have been too intense but she was DOING HER JOB. It shouldn't be a popularity contest. People thought OJ was the nicest guy in the world, look how that turned out.

And I just need to get this off my chest: "Juice" is a STUPID nickname.

All the police brutality references made me angry, especially given that dislike against the police was basically the reason why the jury acquitted him. They didn't strike a blow for race relations, they let a murderer walk...and basically caused even more racial tensions.

Maybe "Juice" is a stupid nickname, maybe not. But I get how it probably started--with him being called by his initials, "OJ", which many people use as a short form for "orange juice", instead of his given name, "Orenthal James". And, seeing as we don't actually know him, "Juice" could perhaps be indicative of other things/characteristics about him too. But I always figured "Juice" came from his first & middle initials being "OJ".

[Maharincess]

Er...what? That makes no sense. Robert Kardashian was OJ's defense attorney. And like it or not, Kris was close friends with Nicole. How could there be a movie about the OJ crime/trial and not have the Kardashians involved?

So the line reminding us that Kourtney and Khloe Kardashian were at the funeral was necessary? It wasn't to me.

Everybody who knows anything about this case knows that Robert K. was involved, but we didn't need the reminder about the daughters.

May not make sense to you but it makes perfect sense to me and it is also my opinion.

[OSM Mom]

Nevermind. Nothing to see here.

Edited February 3, 2016 by OSM Mom

[toodles]

It's interesting to me how polarizing the OJ case still is.  After all this time, so many different viewpoints and perspectives on a 20 year old case.  It certainly keeps the conversation lively.

[VanillaBeanne]

Cara, let's agree to disagree. The tapes were for a screenplay, yes. He was asked to talk about his experiences as a cop. He was not asked to embellish. He was not a screenwriter and not interviewed to make stuff up. He was interviewed to bring true life experiences to a screenplay.

He said he made it up. I and many others disagree.

From Wikipedia:

"Screenwriter Laura McKinny was interested in writing a screenplay and a novel about the experience of women police officers. After learning that Fuhrman was a Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) officer and had strong views about the employment of women as LAPD officers, McKinny engaged Fuhrman as a consultant to provide background information about the reality of the experiences of LAPD officers and to serve as a technical advisor in the development of a screenplay. Furhman and McKinney began meeting for taped interviews in February 1985 and continued meeting until 1994.[1]

[2]. Sorry to anyone who read the second paragraph from wiki. Didn't mean to quote that one.

Edited February 3, 2016 by VanillaBeanne

[BW Manilowe]

I had the same question but I also took it as a suggestion that Nicole had been setting the stage for a romantic encounter with Ron. I don't know if it was ever determined that there was a previously existing sexual relationship between the two but I'd always heard that idea posited.

Cuba is doing a great job but I still think his size and voice are an uphill battle for this portrayal. I'm actually enjoying Travolta. I don't have any memory of Shapiro's voice, only his appearance, and Travolta is selling it for me.

The Kourtney/Khloe thing was superfluous. Did Kris and Faye really where hats to the funeral? Seems a little dramatic.

Sarah Paulson is doing great. Her terrible wig is actually better hair than Marcia Clark's real hair at the time. I like the insight into her life and, even more so, into Darden's.

Her wig really is terrible. It's short in front & long in back, but comparison pics of the real Marcia Clark at the time of the trial show her real hair as being just the opposite--long in front & short in back.

[Jade Foxx]

 

 

That said, it was a travesty of universal and moral justice that Oj got off and I am ecstatic that he's in jail now.  I think people who refuse to see the real, systemic problems with the Lapd that were on display in the oj case are as myopic as those who think Oj is innocent. I'm not trying to convince anyone but I just want to put out there that not everyone who agreed with verdict thought OJ was innocent. It's just my viewpoint. I'm not trying to make it any one else's.

 

Seconded. Scooch over.

 

Just a little background: I was 25 at the time, raised in Los Angeles, and newly married to a rookie LAPD officer. We're both black, both knew OJ was guilty as hell, but understood the verdict.

 

With the way the LAPD operated - its terrorism in communities of color, systematic racism and brutality going all the way back to Darryl Gates - I knew the jury was gonna throw a huge "fuck you" to the Prosecution, even if it was in favor of a moron like OJ.

 

I didn't/don't agree with it, but I completely understand why it happened.

 

Now, on a superficial note - this series is the perfect mash-up of camp and true crime story, and I'm all the way in!

[drivethroo]

 

I don't think Furhman framed an innocent man.

 

I think it's very possible he planted evidence to further the case against a guilty man. And I don't think the state should ever be allowed to put a finger on the scales. It's better to let 10 guilty men go free then convict one innocent.

 

Black people didn't care about OJ prior to 1994. OJ Simpson was the 1990s version of Stacy Dash & Raven Symone.  OJ was white people's hero & go to black celebrity. 

 

Racial tensions were already high b/c of the Simi Trial/LA Riots.  The media added to this by portraying/suggesting OJ Simpson as a BLACK savage who killed his beautiful white wife (for example, the TIME magazine cover).  Having a detective who was a known racist on a case involving a black defendant involved in an interracial relationship didn't help either.

 

Everyone blames the jury & thinks they were stupid or out to save their hero OJ.   But if there's the possibility that a known racist, who might not like interracial relationships, framed a black defendant & that suggestion is made in court, they have to consider it & if there's reasonable doubt, they have to acquit.

 

The PROSECUTION didn't (to my recollection) portray OJ as a black savage going around killing the good white folks but the media with all of its talking heads did.

 

White folks felt very let down by OJ Simpson, they took him into their homes & hearts & thought he was "one of the good ones" and he turned out to savagely kill his white wife.  But he didn't kill her because he was a black savage coming for white people, he killed her* because he was an abusive asshole.  Perhaps if the media had framed it like that, he may have been found guilty.  Or maybe not because Robert Blake killed his wife a year or so later and got acquitted too, but we don't go around saying the white jury in the Blake case was stupid or out for revenge.

 

I wasn't going to watch this show until this scene:

 

Cop: Mr Simpson, your ex-wife has been killed.

 

OJ:  OMG! IS SHE DEAD??!!

 

David Schwimmer is going to play Robert Kardashian as like "Huh?" the entire series, I think.  I didn't even realize it was Jordana Brewster playing Nicole and Malcolm Jamal Warner playing AC.

 

*I remember people theorizing that perhaps OJ's oldest son Jason was the killer & OJ was taking the fall for his son.  He was a chef so he knew his way around a knife.  It had been rumored he had rage issues.  Jason also always laid low during the trial; you saw Arnelle but you never really saw Jason.  That theory kinda faded after OJ kept acting a fool.

 

 

Her wig really is terrible. It's short in front & long in back, but comparison pics of the real Marcia Clark at the time of the trial show her real hair as being just the opposite--long in front & short in back.

 

Marcia Clark's hair was atrocious.  The wig on the actress is 100x better than Marcia Clark's real hair was.

Edited February 3, 2016 by drivethroo

[Jade Foxx]

 

Isn't it just Johnnie Cochran and Robert Kardashian who have died?  That's not "a lot of the participants."  Am I missing someone?  Does Nicole's father count?

 

Johnny Cochran - died of a brain tumor.

Robert Kardashian - dead from head and neck cancer (nasty business)

F. Lee Baily - disbarred

Robert Shapiro - son died of drug overdose or committed suicide

 

Feel free to add on...

[poeticlicensed]

Marcia Clark's hair was atrocious.  The wig on the actress is 100x better than Marcia Clark's real hair was.

 

In defense of Marcia Clark's hair, let me say that the permed poodle thing was definitely not out of the ordinary for  the 80s to mid 90's. I myself used to get perms, hell my husband got perms. Everybody wanted curly hair. 

 

We wanted it to look like this:

 

http://www.harpersbazaar.com/beauty/hair/g5777/iconic-perms/

 

Unfortunately, most people ended up with Marcia Clark hair, lol. 

Edited February 3, 2016 by poeticlicensed

[Lisin]

Too bad Ron Silver is also dead because his Dershowitz was amazing.

 

I have Ron Silver so conflated with real life Dershowitz in my mind that I often have to remind myself that the real Dershowitz is, in fact, still alive. After Ron Silver died my brain just filed Dershowitz into that category as well. You'd be surprised how often I end up looking it up. 

 

I am just so all in for this series. I would have been regardless of quality because I'm a true crime junkie who was in high school when this was happening. I worked part time at a non-profit legal association during that time as well and I remember none of us got any work done for what seems like 2 years because all we did was talk about the murders and OJ and all of that. I'm certain that we did do actual work at some point, but all I remember from that job is OJ. 

[Slider]

 

But this is making me nuts...someone help... I know I've seen the limo driver in something else, but I couldn't find him in the IMDb cast list.  Anybody got a clue?

 

 

That would be the one and only Shawn Donahue (real name: Beau Wirick) from The Middle.  Nancy Donahue must be relieved that he's finally gotten over his free spirited college years to become a limo driver! 

[Umbelina]

Absolutely - the insight into Darden's role is what I want to see more of next week.

 

Yeah, I read Darden's book as well.  He broke my heart, watching him in the trial (completely out of his depth, he was in no way ready yet for a trial like this) and all the "Uncle Tom!" stuff.   His book is worth reading.

I think for me the major issue was how the collection and handling of the blood evidence was presented by the defense. Their spin was beyond dishonest and misleading but wasn't pushed back hard enough by the DAs and ended up being acceptable because of all the racial landmines planted by the defense. Mishandled blood evidence would either degrade and no longer be of use or, if still viable, the results would be inconclusive. Improper collection, handling and storage would not, could not, and did not result in DNA "framing" an innocent person, ie: false positives. Just ask OJ's lawyers Scheck and Neufeld, who founded The Innocence Project. Oh, wait ...

 

The jury didn't care because they didn't want to care. Marcia Clark was a white bitch. Chris Darden was an Uncle Tom. Nicole was a white bitch who stole a brother from his pregnant black wife. A black man who yells at and hits his woman doesn't kill. The white LEOs who beat black Rodney King were acquitted. The white LAPD had a history of racial prejudice against blacks. Cochran needed protection so he was escorted to court by the Nation of Islam which at that time was fervently anti-white. (All of those opinions/factoids are from jurors who were willing to speak, or jury selection consultants, or then-current articles/books and radio/tv interviews/discussions). 

I didn't get it at the time, but I do now.  OJ was acquitted quite simply as a response to the unfairly treated black men of the past.  There was no chance they would ever convict him. 

 

A very interesting take on the case is Dominic Dunn' s book called the Another City, Not My Own. It's fictionalized, but barely. I know this series is based on different source material, but there is so much detail about celebrity and the la culture during that time in his book.

I like true crime stories and I find this one endlessly fascinating. I've been waiting for this show since the ads started last fall. So yeah, I'm all in.

Loved his book as well, but especially his Vanity Fair coverage of the trial, no one really conveyed the circus as well as he.

 

This did not happen. Fuhrman never admitted to planting evidence. 

Not the entire house but multiple candles in the bathroom.  Was, literally, Nicole's entire house filled with lit candles?

Yes, the house was full of candles, and it was used in a "blame the victim" way, the little tart.  Very subtlety used, and she was divorced. 

 

Cuba has the entitled asshole thing down but he is just too small. His stature made the tantrum scenes borderline camp rather than menacing. When the verdict was read all those years ago I developed an instant, searing migraine and took to my bed for a day so I have no idea why I am subjecting myself to this all over again.

 

He really is just too small, and I hate saying it, but it's true.  I was hoping they could pull it off, but they didn't even lower the coffin a bit for him.  OJ towering over everyone and that deep voice, his physical power, was part of the story.  Cuba's acting is fine, but he is miscast.  He's about Nicole's size.

 

 

He told stories about planting evidence as ideas for a screenplay. That was what was on the tapes. They may or may not have been based on an actual event. If I remember correctly he plead the 5th to every question he was asked when he was recalled to the stand. Which is what his lawyer advised him to do I'm sure. If you answer some questions but plead the fifth to others you run the risk of forfeiting you 5th amendment privilege and being held in contempt of court.

I also read Fuhrman's book, which, again is worth a read.  I nearly threw up when those book transcripts came out in the trial.  Do I think he planted evidence in this case?  Oh hell no. 

 

Actually, just about the only books I didn't read at the time was Faye Resnick's, TWO books, the excerpts and endless covering of it was MORE than enough.  I don't like the casting for her either, and we'll see more of her next week.  Again, good actress, but to me doesn't look right for the part.

 

Most of the OJ books came to the dollar store within two years, and that's where I picked them up.  I haven't read the later books, such as the one inspiring this show.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Umbelina

[AndySmith]

Cop: Mr Simpson, your ex-wife has been killed.

 

OJ:  OMG! IS SHE DEAD??!!

 

Ha! That reminds of a lovely bit of dialogue from V (the 1980s TV series)...

 

Lydia: I've never been defeated in mortal combat before.

Diana: Idiot! If you had you'd be dead.

[Umbelina]

Well, we are only a few minutes in and already the errors are bugging me.  Kato was outside investigating the "bumps" when OJ's limo first arrived, and when OJ came out.  Personally, I think that's significant, actually everything that happened with Kato that night was significant, since OJ set him up to be his alibi.

 

What was shown in episode 1 is accurate, I believe.  The info about Kato going out to check on the bumps came out  later when he testified during Simpson's criminal trial. The police did wake him up when they came to Rockingham to try to find Simpson.

Nah.  Kato let the limo in the gate, asked the guy for a flashlight so he could check out the bumps, etc.  He was outside the whole time when OJ left (and in newer testimony during his civil trial) also when he got back from murdering Nicole.  It's a fascinating read.  http://simpson.walraven.org/index.html (Page down near the bottom for Kato's deposition.)  The others are interesting too, since no judge to stop questions and answers.

[helenamonster]

I loved the 1st episode, and I believe all throughout this series im going to ask "did that really happen?". Off the bat, when the guy walking his dog saw the other dog with blood all over its paws and followed it to the crime scene. I had just assumed a friend came to look for Nicole and thats how the bodies were found. And then the polygraph test, which he failed miserably. I think its very telling his own lawyers wanted to test whether he's a lying liar who lies.

 

The dog was how the bodies were discovered but I don't think it happened exactly as the show portrayed it. From what I can remember, a neighbor heard the dog barking and went outside to get it (I don't think they knew that it was Nicole's dog). The neighbor saw the dog covered in blood and at first thought that it might have hurt itself but couldn't find an injury. Then I think they tried to bring the dog back to their house but the dog was agitated so they took it for a walk and then the dog led them to the bodies. Someone feel free to correct me if I have it wrong but I think that's how it went.

 

Also I think that part with the daughter leaving the message (heartbreaking, btw) and the dialogue where OJ asks if Nicole is dead...after being told she was killed...are true.

 

I think what's impressing me most about Paulson in this role is that she was filming this series at the same time as American Horror Story: Hotel. Two completely different roles and she probably didn't get much sleep. I certainly admire her work ethic.

 

Part of me was wondering if this show is a little pointless, seeing as how even if you weren't around or too young to remember the actual trial, the whole thing has become an American legend and everybody knows about it. But then I kind of thought of it as like going back to rewatch a well-structured mystery movie or reread a mystery novel, and pick up on all the things that the author dropped as clues but that you didn't realize were clues because you didn't know how it all ended. This is kind of the same thing...this case should have been a slam dunk for the prosecution, so why wasn't it? And we're already starting to see the little mistakes that were made that would eventually snowball into the verdict, like getting OJ being cuffed on tape and the police letting themselves onto the property. Also, as I think someone else mentioned, when the actual trial was going on, most people were only privy to what was available on the news and, I guess if they had cable, the actual proceedings of the trial, not what was going on behind the scenes. There are so many factors in this case that I think it can only be valuable to look at all of them and how they interrelated.

 

For instance, it looks like besides the racial aspects that factored heavily into this case, we're going to be getting into gender politics as well with Clark. My mom talked a lot about how it was hard to take Clark seriously because of her personality (aka being a prosecutor simply doing her job) and how much her hair was made fun of. If the lead prosecutor was male, would people have been making fun of his hair, or calling him a "bitch" for trying to win a case? That's something I think should be considered too.

 

I'm in a screenwriting class right now and today before class started my professor asked if any of us had watched this last night and what we thought (from a writing perspective), acknowledging that we were all too young to remember it the way he did. Like my mom has told me the story a bunch of times about her being 8 months pregnant with me and laying on our living room floor watching...uh, what's about to happen with the white Bronco, and it's just starting to dawn on me that I was born in the midst of this madness and don't know of a world without this kind of constant media coverage. Like I have no concept of a pre-OJ murder trial existence and will probably never quite understand how the whole thing changed the media in the way that people that can remember the "before" times do. It's just wild.

 

My issue with the Kardashian involvement extends only to the kids, honestly. Obviously Robert Kardashian is crucial to this story, and even Kris Jenner helps round things out since she was such good friends with Nicole. But the children are superfluous to the narrative and that's why I hope they keep the shoutouts to them to a minimum. Don't we hear enough about them now?

[BW Manilowe]

Black people didn't care about OJ prior to 1994. OJ Simpson was the 1990s version of Stacy Dash & Raven Symone. OJ was white people's hero & go to black celebrity.

Racial tensions were already high b/c of the Simi Trial/LA Riots. The media added to this by portraying/suggesting OJ Simpson as a BLACK savage who killed his beautiful white wife (for example, the TIME magazine cover). Having a detective who was a known racist on a case involving a black defendant involved in an interracial relationship didn't help either.

Everyone blames the jury & thinks they were stupid or out to save their hero OJ. But if there's the possibility that a known racist, who might not like interracial relationships, framed a black defendant & that suggestion is made in court, they have to consider it & if there's reasonable doubt, they have to acquit.

The PROSECUTION didn't (to my recollection) portray OJ as a black savage going around killing the good white folks but the media with all of its talking heads did.

White folks felt very let down by OJ Simpson, they took him into their homes & hearts & thought he was "one of the good ones" and he turned out to savagely kill his white wife. But he didn't kill her because he was a black savage coming for white people, he killed her* because he was an abusive asshole. Perhaps if the media had framed it like that, he may have been found guilty. Or maybe not because Robert Blake killed his wife a year or so later and got acquitted too, but we don't go around saying the white jury in the Blake case was stupid or out for revenge.

I wasn't going to watch this show until this scene:

Cop: Mr Simpson, your ex-wife has been killed.

OJ: OMG! IS SHE DEAD??!!

David Schwimmer is going to play Robert Kardashian as like "Huh?" the entire series, I think. I didn't even realize it was Jordana Brewster playing Nicole and Malcolm Jamal Warner playing AC.

*I remember people theorizing that perhaps OJ's oldest son Jason was the killer & OJ was taking the fall for his son. He was a chef so he knew his way around a knife. It had been rumored he had rage issues. Jason also always laid low during the trial; you saw Arnelle but you never really saw Jason. That theory kinda faded after OJ kept acting a fool.

Marcia Clark's hair was atrocious. The wig on the actress is 100x better than Marcia Clark's real hair was.

Jordana Brewster's playing Nicole's dark-haired, basically look alike, sister Denise Brown, not Nicole. They supposedly found an un to little known alleged look alike to play Nicole.

[RemoteControlFreak]

Johnny Cochran - died of a brain tumor.

Robert Kardashian - dead from head and neck cancer (nasty business)

F. Lee Baily - disbarred

Robert Shapiro - son died of drug overdose or committed suicide

 

Feel free to add on...

So really just two dead.

 

Shapiro's son was not part of the OJ Simpson trial, was he?  

 

This is how urban legends get started ...  "Tons of deaths among OJ Simpson trial participants!"

[BW Manilowe]

Johnny Cochran - died of a brain tumor.

Robert Kardashian - dead from head and neck cancer (nasty business)

F. Lee Baily - disbarred

Robert Shapiro - son died of drug overdose or committed suicide

Feel free to add on...

Robert Kardashian's Wikipedia page says he died of esophageal cancer, which is the same thing I've always heard. He died in 2003, only 8 weeks after being diagnosed.

[suomi]

I also read Fuhrman's book, which, again is worth a read.  I nearly threw up when those book transcripts came out in the trial.  Do I think he planted evidence in this case?  Oh hell no. 

 

Actually, just about the only books I didn't read at the time was Faye Resnick's, TWO books, the excerpts and endless covering of it was MORE than enough.  I don't like the casting for her either, and we'll see more of her next week.  Again, good actress, but to me doesn't look right for the part.

 

Most of the OJ books came to the dollar store within two years, and that's where I picked them up.  I haven't read the later books, such as the one inspiring this show.

 

Sounds like we read the same ones and skipped the same ones. Imagine my surprise when I looked for Toobin's book on Amazon today and found out that it was published in 1996. Whut?!? So I thought you and some others might like to know that.

[RemoteControlFreak]

Nah.  Kato let the limo in the gate, asked the guy for a flashlight so he could check out the bumps, etc.  He was outside the whole time when OJ left (and in newer testimony during his civil trial) also when he got back from murdering Nicole.  It's a fascinating read.  http://simpson.walraven.org/index.html (Page down near the bottom for Kato's deposition.)  The others are interesting too, since no judge to stop questions and answers.

Right. How is this inconsistent with what was shown in the episode?  There were only a few seconds of OJ outside his house and getting into the limo. There was no scene showing the limo driver getting through the gate.  I think the dialogue with the police officer about the thumps is enough to cover the fact that Kato heard thumps. 

[Jade Foxx]

So really just two dead.

 

Shapiro's son was not part of the OJ Simpson trial, was he?  

 

This is how urban legends get started ...  "Tons of deaths among OJ Simpson trial participants!"

 

True, true.  I was thinking more in terms of "tragedy befalling the so-called Dream Team"

[Umbelina]

Right. How is this inconsistent with what was shown in the episode?  There were only a few seconds of OJ outside his house and getting into the limo. There was no scene showing the limo driver getting through the gate.  I think the dialogue with the police officer about the thumps is enough to cover the fact that Kato heard thumps. 

Because to me, it looked like OJ was the first one to greet and talk to the limo driver, that OJ hadn't pretended to want to find out what caused the bumps.  Actually that's probably when the blood evidence at the front door and hall happened as well, OJ went in to get a flashlight.  Or said he was... Actually the most interesting thing is that Kato probably saw the bag holding the knife, near the Bentley, OJ rushed past him to get it when Kato started to pick it up.  It's OK, they have to cut some stuff, I get it.   I also wished they would have included one of the first things Kato said to the police when they woke him up, "Did OJ's plane crash?" 

 

It's my fault, I am absolutely riveted by Kato's civil deposition.  I can't get it out of my mind.... 

 

ETA "bag" not "bad."  oops

Also, in his testimony you can clearly see how completely out of character OJ was with Kato that night.  It was obvious he was going to use Kato as an alibi, that he was on his way to murder Nicole with the "hamburger" excuse, and Kata kind of screwed him up by very uncharacteristically asking to go with.  First time Kato ever went anywhere to eat with OJ, first time OJ had ever come to his room, etc.

 

ETA, Nicole, not FAYE above.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Umbelina

[RemoteControlFreak]

The dog was how the bodies were discovered but I don't think it happened exactly as the show portrayed it. From what I can remember, a neighbor heard the dog barking and went outside to get it (I don't think they knew that it was Nicole's dog). The neighbor saw the dog covered in blood and at first thought that it might have hurt itself but couldn't find an injury. Then I think they tried to bring the dog back to their house but the dog was agitated so they took it for a walk and then the dog led them to the bodies. Someone feel free to correct me if I have it wrong but I think that's how it went.

Pretty much.  The guy walking his dog found Nicole's dog barking and bloodied but didn't then come upon the crime scene.  It was another neighbor who followed the dog back to Nicole's house.  

 

source:  http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,3016,00.html

[ShadowHunter]

Ha! That reminds of a lovely bit of dialogue from V (the 1980s TV series)...

 

Lydia: I've never been defeated in mortal combat before.

Diana: Idiot! If you had you'd be dead.

Speaking of V Dominick Dunne's daughter Dominique was suppose to be in that but she ended up getting killed at the hands of her abusive ex boyfriend. He hardly did any time for the crime either since he wasn't charged with first degree murder. Sad to see the times the justice system messed up.

[lovinbob]

 But it was nice to see Cheryl Ladd.

She looked fabulous! 

[BW Manilowe]

Sounds like we read the same ones and skipped the same ones. Imagine my surprise when I looked for Toobin's book on Amazon today and found out that it was published in 1996. Whut?!? So I thought you and some others might like to know that.

I mentioned that upthread, when the thought was mentioned that the writers wrote this as if OJ has/had CTE--the only recently-discovered (or at least only recently making huge amounts of news) degenerative brain condition which has been found during autopsies of former (mostly NFL) football players (it can only be found, so far, in a post-mortem exam of the brain of someone suspected of having it). 1996 was, as I remember, way early for this brain condition--named CTE then, or not--to be in the news, & the thought (by the Dr. credited with discovering the condition/correlation between it & repeated head trauma suffered by football players--a man played by Will Smith in the recent movie Concussion, by the way) that OJ probably has it/had it at the time of the murders (because his behavior back then is the same as has been exhibited by those who are later found to have the condition) has only been in the news in the last couple of weeks before the premiere of this miniseries. So Jeffrey Toobin, the author of the source material, probably couldn't have written in his book about OJ having that specific condition. Depending on when this was written, in connection to when CTE, by whatever name/description, started making news, it's possible the miniseries' writers could've given that "OJ may have CTE" slant to their writing here.

Edited February 3, 2016 by BW Manilowe

[truelovekiss]

I just want to start out by saying I was two years old when the trial began, so I don't have any memory of this, and so I apologize if I get any details wrong.

 

I'll pay David Schwimmer $1 million dollars if he never says "The Juice" again.

Ugh, that was so annoying!  It just seemed so fake.  Like, Lady Gaga's name is Stefani.  Does Taylor Kinney call her "gaga" in private?  Probably not.  Calling him "Juice" once or twice might have been alright, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that OJ's personal friends probably called him by his name a majority of the time.  Especially in a very serious situation like this.  Calling him "Juice" made Robert Kardashian seem more like a fan than a friend.

 

I can't help but think OJ is getting the sympathy edit here. I hate the fact that spousal abuse took a back seat to racial issues.

I agree with this.  I'm hoping that as it goes on, it will get better.  I can also imagine them showing him getting cockier and more belligerent as the trial goes on.

 

I thought I was in for the long haul with this until the funeral scene and I heard the completely unnecessary "Kourtney, Khloe stop running" from the Evil Kris Jenner character and I was out.  There was absolutely no reason for that line to be in there. This is the story about the murder of 2 human beings, why the hell did they have to add that stupid line about that disgusting family?

I think I'm in the minority here, but I thought it was totally cheesy for them to have the Kardashian women shout out.  Yes, Kris and Nicole were friends.  Robert and OJ were friends.  It makes sense.  But how many friends did OJ and Nicole have?  I'm assuming a lot.  But they don't all get shout outs.  Even if they just kept it to Kris, I think that would have been more than sufficient.  Maybe it was just the delivery, it came across in a very over the top way like, "Ohhh myyy GAWD, it's the Kardashians!!1!!11!" as if no one would have picked up on that.

 

OMG. All of this. This is bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. Like a Lifetime movie but with a higher-quality talent pool slumming it for the paycheck.

This is exactly what I came here to say.  This whole thing SCREAMED Lifetime movie to me.  

 

 

Further thoughts: I am in the minority here, but I am not really impressed with this.  I actually thought the acting, costumes and really everything just seemed cheap and cheesy.  I agree with the general consensus that CGJ was absolutely not the right choice for OJ and John Travolta looks a hot mess.  I think I'm on a bench by myself when I say that I think David Schwimmer was laughable.  I thought he was really bad, sorry!  He just came off as more of an OJ fangirl than a friend of a man who lost his ex wife, and is being tried for her murder.

 

I hope this gets better.  I'm going to watch it until the end anyway, but it would be nice if it didn't suck.