S06.E05: Season 6, Episode 5

[Macbeth]

What is going on JF's life that he has needed to have at least 1 female character acting like a shrew.   We had that teacher in past seasons now it is both Violet and Daisy.  That nice relationship Daisy had with Mr. Mason - JF is just blowing that up.

 

And Violet - always been a favorite of mine - always guaranteed to say one witty thing per show.  Not this season at all.  Everything coming out of her mouth is about that awful hospital mess.  Violet has been completely out of sorts.  Robert bankrupting Downton Abbey didn't get this reaction.

 

It reminds me of Shonda Rhimes taking out her hostilities on some of the blonde women at Grey's Anatomy after Heigl left.  Teddy and Arizona (at the beginning) could be quite shrewish.

[AndySmith]

The clothing and hairstyles of the twenties have really suited her.

 

I have to disagree. I don't find the 20's hairstyle suiting Laura Carmichael at all. I do think Michelle Dockery is able to pull off that look, as does Elizabeth McGovern. But Laura...not so much.

 

Which is a shame, because looking at Laura out of role, she is a very lovely woman. She looks good with her hair long, short, long and wavy, in a nice up do, etc. As long as it's a contemporary style. That short crunchy wavy thing just does her no favors whatsoever.

[Ohwell]

The short, wavy hairstyle on Laura Carmichael just highlights her long nose.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Ohwell

[Roseanna]

What I took from the scene was the very end of it with Mary looking to me like Tom had made a point that she needed to seriously consider.  Her declaration about not marrying someone "beneath" her was countered by Tom's explanation that he and Sybil were equals, they had balance. 

 

I think you have found what was central in the scene: not what Mary says (as she said to Matthew, she often says what she doesn't really think) but what Tom says to her. Tom is one of the few people who can make her mind. And she has changed about him and his marrying with Sybil.  

[SoSueMe]

I am confused about the Mason/Daisy farm dynamic. I see it mentioned that Daisy stands to inherit Mr. Mason's farm but isn't he a tenant on the former Drewes' tenancy? What does that mean? He wouldn't actually own that farm, would he?   

[Roseanna]

What is going on JF's life that he has needed to have at least 1 female character acting like a shrew.   We had that teacher in past seasons now it is both Violet and Daisy.  That nice relationship Daisy had with Mr. Mason - JF is just blowing that up.

 

Of course the writer can take something of his own experiences and prejudices, but even more important are conventions and rules in the soap. One of those is that the audience needs also characters whom it can hate, get annoyed and look down at. Another is that a relationship can be happy only a short time, after that there will be again obstacles, disagreements and crisis.     

[Artymouse]

I am confused about the Mason/Daisy farm dynamic. I see it mentioned that Daisy stands to inherit Mr. Mason's farm but isn't he a tenant on the former Drewes' tenancy? What does that mean? He wouldn't actually own that farm, would he?   

 

I think Daisy is meant to take over Mr. Mason's role in the tenancy. She can't inherit the farm because, as I understand it, the farm is owned by the estate or the Crawleys.

I am confused about the Mason/Daisy farm dynamic. I see it mentioned that Daisy stands to inherit Mr. Mason's farm but isn't he a tenant on the former Drewes' tenancy? What does that mean? He wouldn't actually own that farm, would he?   

 

I think Daisy is meant to take over Mr. Mason's role in the tenancy. She can't inherit the farm because, as I understand it, the farm is owned by the estate or the Crawleys.

[meep.meep]

 

Allen Leech looked a bit heavier than he does now, when he made his PR round for "The Imitation Game" last spring, but not as nearly as heavy than he looks at the show. I think the heavy tweet and the Make up is adding to it. Here's picture of him in April (with his parents, btw), when they were filming the episodes we're currently watching: http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/allen-leech-with-parents-david-and-kay-attending-the-downton-abbey-picture-id471683264

 

I think Leech bulked up for his part in The Imitation Game and then started filming this right afterwards.  The tweed suit doesn't help, especially with full waistcoat.

 

Everytime I see Michelle Dockery, I want to spoon feed her whipped cream.  

[proserpina65]

I have to disagree. I don't find the 20's hairstyle suiting Laura Carmichael at all. I do think Michelle Dockery is able to pull off that look, as does Elizabeth McGovern. But Laura...not so much.

 

Which is a shame, because looking at Laura out of role, she is a very lovely woman. She looks good with her hair long, short, long and wavy, in a nice up do, etc. As long as it's a contemporary style. That short crunchy wavy thing just does her no favors whatsoever.

I feel the exact opposite.  I liked Edith's hairstyle and think Mary's looks terrible on her.  Ah well, chacon a son goute.

[skyways]

I'll settle this dispute once and for all. It is DENKER who looks best in her coif! - so symetrical, so sleek, so eye-catching, so...............................

[jnymph]

Well, they are going to have a heck of a time getting the blood out of that tablecloth.

Time for an American Horror Story crossover.   The Crawleys need to hire the laundress from "Hotel"

 

[AndySmith]

Oh Lord I think she trumps Edith/Laura in The Nice Looking Women Who the "Downtown Look" Fugs Up category. Granted, it's probably intentional in her case.

 

Edited February 2, 2016 by AndySmith

[Andorra]

I think Leech bulked up for his part in The Imitation Game and then started filming this right afterwards.  The tweed suit doesn't help, especially with full waistcoat.

 

No, there was more than a year between filming the Imitation Game and the filming of Downton Abbey. He filmed TMI in the fall/winter 2013. It was released in the fall/winter 2014 and he filmed season 6 of Downton from April to August 2015. 

Edited February 2, 2016 by Andorra

[helenamonster]

Yes, but it would difficult even to date someone as we have seen. One usually wants one's family get to know and like one's intended but to Robert no woman wouldn't be good enough. Although Mary had promised to support Tom, his marriage would make her lonely if she didn't marry herself.

 

I'd like to think the family could find a way to be supportive if Tom decided to start looking for a wife. He's a young man and while he obviously would have preferred to grow old with Sybil, it's unfair to expect him to remain a chaste bachelor single dad forever. It doesn't have to be someone as awful as Sarah Bunting but if the family makes him feel like he's unable to ever move on from Sybil, that's pretty shitty.

 

wrt to Marigold, I don't think that Anna "knows" ... rather she and other people have guessed ... so to repeat that suspicion to Mary, even at her requests, would be "gossiping" ... a mortal sin. Pretty sure, Robert and Cora do know because Edith confirmed to them, also Rosamund and Violet having been part of the initial "off to Switzerland" maneuver.  Interestingly Mrs. Drewe actually saw the birth certificate, but apparently is keeping Edith's secret for present (until out of frame at least).  I'm not sure if Tom and Edith have had "the conversation" rather than her passively not-denying, but I may be forgetting her confirming his suspicions.

 

Oh, Anna knows. She never got official confirmation but she's not a dummy. She put 2 and 2 together.

 

English version viewers seem to comment on something medical Carson said that made him look stupid. – did we see that scene and I just forgot it?  Can’t figure out what they’re referring to.

 

He heard that that Robert got a gastrectomy and when a servant asked what that was, he didn't want to appear like he didn't know so he just said that it was none of their business.

 

Those clips of the dinner scene & with the actors talking about show how very thin Elizabeth McGovern has become. I hadn't noticed that before.

When I see photos of women from the 20's, they seem more rounded & soft than Cora & Mary, who are both so rail-thin.

 

That might just be an unfortunate side-effect of being an actress these days. Sure, they spend six months out of the year filming Downton and could probably afford to put on a couple pounds for reality's sake, but they both do other projects when they're not working on Downton and God forbid any actress be larger than a size 0. SNL's Kate McKinnon had a great comedy bit with the line, "Pick a weight. If you've watched TV at all in the past 50 years, you know that working actors come in 2 sizes: extremely small and extremely large. Either one is fine, but you have to pick." It's barely an exaggeration. I wouldn't be surprised if they faced pressure from the industry to remain thin.

 

It is worth noting that the actors on this show, specifically the women, have been instructed not to do certain kinds of workouts. Like Michelle Dockery has been told not to do any kind of arm workouts because Lady Mary wouldn't have toned biceps. Joanne Froggatt has said that on the other hand, she can get away with doing her normal workout routine because she just wears a shapeless sack most of the time.

 

Do people find Andy hot? I think he looks like a young Mr. Bean.

 

Laura Carmichael does, since she and the actor who plays Andy are dating lol.

 

I also think anyone who has seen Thomas' darker side would never entrust him with a secret or want to risk his sharp tongue and imperious manner being his remedial education student. Let's just hope Thomas is a whiz as an teacher reading and writing and that Andy's illiteracy is not the product of extreme dyslexia ... 

 

I know they're going for a redemption arc with Thomas, but this would be a great opportunity for Molesley. He missed his calling as a teacher and teaching an adult to man to finally read could be really fulfilling for him. I hope he gets brought in on it somehow.

 

So I'm very interested to see what she says and does next, not only with Edith, but with all her family. I screamed at the TV when this episode ended with Mary looking into the mirror. I have to wait another week (or is it two? Please tell me the Super Bowl isn't causing PBS to skip airing DA next Sunday) to see what happens there, and it's easily the thing I'm most interested in this season.

 

They're not skipping it, they never do. I think for the past few years it's still been the second-highest rated program on Super Bowl Sunday. Miles behind the SB, obviously, but they still manage to pull in the viewers.

 

I think it's interesting that Carson and Mrs. Hughes are trying to make a semi-regular thing of eating by themselves in their cottage, as Anna and Bates, except for a few exceptions, have eaten every meal in the servants' hall since they got married. They even made a comment this episode about not wanting to be late for breakfast. They make do with other moments in the day to spend time with each other, like before the dressing gong or when they're polishing shoes. Maybe the Carsons should look to them for some advice on this?

[Llywela]

What I took from the scene was the very end of it with Mary looking to me like Tom had made a point that she needed to seriously consider.  Her declaration about not marrying someone "beneath" her was countered by Tom's explanation that he and Sybil were equals, they had balance.

Yes - in that scene, Tom pointed out to Mary that there's more than one way in which a husband and wife can be equal, and she seemed to take that point to heart in a way she never really has before. Social equality has always trumped everything, in her eyes - that's how she was raised. But times are changing - and perhaps Mary is beginning to realise that there's more to life (and love) than social equality, or that the lack of social equality need not stand in the way of a couple who are well matched in other ways.

I think Daisy is meant to take over Mr. Mason's role in the tenancy. She can't inherit the farm because, as I understand it, the farm is owned by the estate or the Crawleys.

Yes. The way the great estates were traditionally run, the freehold always remained in the possession of the landowning family, but the tenancy of the farmers would be passed down from father to son through multiple generations. I believe Mr Drewe mentioned that Yew Tree Farm (tenancy thereof) had been in his family since Waterloo, so over a century. Mr Mason could probably say similar for his old farm.

[Artymouse]

On the subject of how Anna knows the truth about Marigold: I seem to recall that after the fire, Anna and Mrs. Hughes were cleaning the burned-up mess of Edith's room and found a photograph in the bedclothes. It looked like a child's photo, so I assumed it was Marigold.

[caligirl50]

 

 

I hear you, but I think he's cute -- er, and so does Laura-

http://www.dailymail...on-romance.html

 

Wow...that's news....I think Laura Carmichael is gorgeous.  This is so off topic.  :0]

[caligirl50]

Did anyone else see the PBS special that ran the week before the first episode?  A lot of what is being speculated here tells what is to come of Mary's storyline.  

 

Oh Lord I think she trumps Edith/Laura in The Nice Looking Women Who the "Downtown Look" Fugs Up category. Granted, it's probably intentional in her case.

 

Not even this tops O'Brien's wig. :0]

 

On the subject of how Anna knows the truth about Marigold: I seem to recall that after the fire, Anna and Mrs. Hughes were cleaning the burned-up mess of Edith's room and found a photograph in the bedclothes. It looked like a child's photo, so I assumed it was Marigold.

 

I didn't think Anna stumbled with her answer.  Her answer sounded truthful.  I know that is not what was said here.

Edited February 2, 2016 by caligirl50

[Llywela]

On the subject of how Anna knows the truth about Marigold: I seem to recall that after the fire, Anna and Mrs. Hughes were cleaning the burned-up mess of Edith's room and found a photograph in the bedclothes. It looked like a child's photo, so I assumed it was Marigold.

Yes, it was a photograph of Marigold that Edith had been crying over and kept under her pillow. Anna also caught a glimpse of the Marigold handover on the train, after Edith had run off with her to London and then she was brought back and returned to the Drewes so that the Crawley's could then take her from them as part of the new cover story of adopting her as a ward. Between the two incidents, Anna knows enough to suspect the truth - and has talked to Mrs Hughes about both, so she knows too.

[iMonrey]

In fairness to Barrow, there's really a pretty limited selection of people to hang out with, and every other male servant is coupled up.  So while I agree it doesn't hurt that Andy is young and attractive, it's not like there is much choice.

 

He's burned his bridges with both Bates and Molesly, and he's never going to be buddies with Carson, so who else is left for him to be friends with? Seems like we see the random hall boy now and then but even among the servants there must be a class division; an under-butler is never going to hang out with a hall boy.

 

Do people find Andy hot? I think he looks like a young Mr. Bean.

 

Bwah! He really does, now that you mention it.

 

I am confused about the Mason/Daisy farm dynamic. I see it mentioned that Daisy stands to inherit Mr. Mason's farm but isn't he a tenant on the former Drewes' tenancy? What does that mean? He wouldn't actually own that farm, would he?

 

Your confusion probably stems from the fact that we were led to believe Daisy would one day take over Mr. Mason's farm (or at least, so he hoped) back in Season 1 or 2. Fast forward to Season 6 and now it appears she never really had that option since he's only a tenant farmer on someone's estate - her ability to take over the tenancy would be dependent on the estate owner approving it. 

 

I meant that I thought the B&B part would be after she retired, but I don't have last season to check, so I will fully admit that I could be wrong.

 

It was Anna and Bates who got the idea of running some sort of B&B or inn. They keep getting side-lined by their legal woes. Mrs. Patmore inherited a little money from a relative and decided to invest in a small house she could retire to eventually, and rent out in the meantime.

 

However - it was Mrs. Patmore's plan that inspired Mr. Carson to do something similar, and invite Mrs. Hughes to go in on it with him, which initially suggests they meant to find a place they could either rent out or run as a B&B or inn - I don't remember which. It wasn't something they meant to live in together when they first started talking about it, since marriage hadn't come up yet at that point. And I still don't understand what became of that plan.

[jschoolgirl]

I agree it would not be right, but this is Mary we're talking about. Such things as rightness or fairness don't really enter into her thinking, especially not when it comes to her ego where men are concerned. I have no doubt that Matthew will always be the great love of her life. I think she's just fine marrying someone she doesn't love as much or in the same way as she did Matthew. But I just cannot see her marrying a man for whom she isn't the great love of his life. Fair or not. Especially not a man whose great love of his life is her sister. It would always bother her because she never wants to be second-best.

 

I was rewatching the scene in which Mary overhears about Marigold, and I noticed that it also seemed to strike her particularly that Edith was the one Violet asked to call her with news of Robert. Violet asked Edith to do it, took her hand and kissed her on the cheek, and completely ignored Mary. I still don't think Mary is angry now or going to be angry, I think she's struck with a realization of how she's actually rather isolated from everyone. Her precious Anna won't be honest with her about Marigold; Violet is favoring Edith; her mother obviously knows about Edith and Marigold; Tom is calling her Queen Mary (even if one feels that he meant it with a positive connotation, there's still something distancing in his choice to refer to her that way, and I believe we were meant to take it that way given the shot we got immediately after of Mary standing all alone in the hall). Mary was deep in thought at the end of this episode, and during her deep thinking she's going to remember the way everyone carried on when Marigold went missing at the fair and realize that her father knew too, all the servants knew or had guessed. She's head of Downton and she didn't know a damn thing.

 

And even though this other thing that she complained about in this episode is of a much smaller scale than the Marigold secret, it's very similar at bottom: In the Yew Tree matter, Mary was most bothered by the way the family made the decision without her that Mr. Mason would get Yew Tree. Cora deliberately took advantage of Mary's absence to get the rest of the family on board, because she didn't think even appeals to Sybil's memory would work on Mary, and Tom is the one who said it would be best to present Mary with a fait accompli, because really, he didn't think appeals (to Sybil, or to William) would work either. It's the same with both these things, the family (and Anna) don't trust Mary to be a decent person (to Mr. Mason, to Edith, to Marigold) and consequently they purposely arrange things without her knowledge and tell her only what they must, when they must. She has Downton Abbey, her son will inherit Downton Abbey, and those are the things she's cared about most, but on a fundamental level she's quite alone. Somehow despite being head of Downton she's out of the inner circle.

I'm confused. What does an appeal to Sybil's memory have to do with Mr. Mason and the farm?

[SusanSunflower]

The issue of what Anna actually KNEW (as opposed to surmised) is important as to what she might tell Mary ... IMHO, she would not dare spread "gossip" (supposition) repeating anything she didn't actually know for certain. Others did know -- because Edith had confirmed their suspicions.-- Tom and Cora and Robert. (I had forgotten Edith's and Tom's frank conversation about many Marigolds). Everyone downstairs might think they know at this point, based on gossip or supposition, nothing that wouldn't be considered gossip and gossip mongering if repeated. 

 

If Mrs. Drewe had told anyone that she had seen the birth certificate (assuming Edith was listed as mother) that would be as close to proof as anyone was going to hear, except from Edith herself or Rosamund or Violet (as if) -- since they knew about the pregnancy, Switzerland, leaving Switzerland and the Drewe Saga ... 

Edited February 2, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

I'm confused. What does an appeal to Sybil's memory have to do with Mr. Mason and the farm?

 

Sybil had a good heart and she helped the maid Gwen to become a secretary in S1. Meeting Gwen again made Cora ask "what would Sybil have done" and it was clear to Tom that she would have given the farm to Mr Mason. 

Edited February 2, 2016 by Roseanna

[Mrsjumbo]

I'd like to think the family could find a way to be supportive if Tom decided to start looking for a wife. He's a young man and while he obviously would have preferred to grow old with Sybil, it's unfair to expect him to remain a chaste bachelor single dad forever. It doesn't have to be someone as awful as Sarah Bunting but if the family makes him feel like he's unable to ever move on from Sybil, that's pretty shitty.

Oh, Anna knows. She never got official confirmation but she's not a dummy. She put 2 and 2 together.

He heard that that Robert got a gastrectomy and when a servant asked what that was, he didn't want to appear like he didn't know so he just said that it was none of their business.

That might just be an unfortunate side-effect of being an actress these days. Sure, they spend six months out of the year filming Downton and could probably afford to put on a couple pounds for reality's sake, but they both do other projects when they're not working on Downton and God forbid any actress be larger than a size 0. SNL's Kate McKinnon had a great comedy bit with the line, "Pick a weight. If you've watched TV at all in the past 50 years, you know that working actors come in 2 sizes: extremely small and extremely large. Either one is fine, but you have to pick." It's barely an exaggeration. I wouldn't be surprised if they faced pressure from the industry to remain thin.

It is worth noting that the actors on this show, specifically the women, have been instructed not to do certain kinds of workouts. Like Michelle Dockery has been told not to do any kind of arm workouts because Lady Mary wouldn't have toned biceps. Joanne Froggatt has said that on the other hand, she can get away with doing her normal workout routine because she just wears a shapeless sack most of the time.

Laura Carmichael does, since she and the actor who plays Andy are dating lol.

I know they're going for a redemption arc with Thomas, but this would be a great opportunity for Molesley. He missed his calling as a teacher and teaching an adult to man to finally read could be really fulfilling for him. I hope he gets brought in on it somehow.

They're not skipping it, they never do. I think for the past few years it's still been the second-highest rated program on Super Bowl Sunday. Miles behind the SB, obviously, but they still manage to pull in the viewers.

I think it's interesting that Carson and Mrs. Hughes are trying to make a semi-regular thing of eating by themselves in their cottage, as Anna and Bates, except for a few exceptions, have eaten every meal in the servants' hall since they got married. They even made a comment this episode about not wanting to be late for breakfast. They make do with other moments in the day to spend time with each other, like before the dressing gong or when they're polishing shoes. Maybe the Carsons should look to them for some advice on this?

Ha ha! When Anna said they had to get to breakfast I thought she meant the CRAWLEY'S breakfast. Meaning she better hurry to get ready Mary's breakfast tray before she woke up.

And I thought Edith had a photo of Gregson the night of the fire. Guess I need to rewatch episodes!

[ShadowFacts]

The issue of what Anna actually KNEW (as opposed to surmised) is important as to what she might tell Mary ... IMHO, she would not dare spread "gossip" (supposition) repeating anything she didn't actually know for certain. Others did know -- because Edith had confirmed their suspicions.-- Tom and Cora and Robert. (I had forgotten Edith's and Tom's frank conversation about many Marigolds). Everyone downstairs might think they know at this point, based on gossip or supposition, nothing that wouldn't be considered gossip and gossip mongering if repeated. 

 

If Mrs. Drewe had told anyone that she had seen the birth certificate (assuming Edith was listed as mother) that would be as close to proof as anyone was going to hear, except from Edith herself or Rosamund or Violet (as if) -- since they knew about the pregnancy, Switzerland, leaving Switzerland and the Drewe Saga ... 

 

I agree that Anna would tread lightly regarding gossip and supposition.  Also she makes a smart move in answering only the question asked which was something like "what are the servants saying about Marigold", and narrowly tailoring her answer to actual things that have probably been said, that she is a lucky little girl, etc. 

[Constantinople]

I really like Tom's evolution. Younger Tom in an earlier season would have started a fight with the health minister at dinner about the way the government is oppressing its people (heh, although I suppose Violet had "contentious dinner fight" covered) and then after Robert was taken away he would have scampered off. Now he feels comfortable sending off a government official and even chatting with him to find out how Violet got him to come to Downton in the first place.

 

 

Well, I do not like how Tom has been tamed.

No kidding.

I'm glad the series is ending because the last thing I want to see is a Season 7 Tom running to be the Parliamentary member for Ripon or Thirsk and Malton as the Conservative & Unionist nominee.

[whatsatool]

I giggled when Tom wrote her from Boston. If he hadn't returned, I think it might have taken Mary a year to reply to him. No letter writer she.

I do think Mary has shown more Interest in her pigs, than her suitors.

Edited February 3, 2016 by whatsatool

[WatchrTina]

These discussions prompted me to go back and re-watch Season 1.  Damn, this show was extraordinary -- a real home run right out of the starting blocks.  It's so interesting to watch those episode, knowing how things will turn out.  The inter-play between Mr. Carson and Mrs. Hughes in episode 4 (where her former beau returns and proposes to her) is really interesting in light of knowing that they end up marrying in Season 6.  And seeing Lady Sybil meet Branson . . . <sniffle>.

 

It is funny, though, to see the recycled story lines.  Mr. Carson's former partner in the Cheerful Charlies (who kips in one of the cottages and is smuggled food by Carson, only to walk through the front door demanding money) seems an awful lot like the hotel maid that tried to blackmail Lady Mary in the first episode this season (Lord Grantham gets rid of both with a token payment followed by a threat) as well as Spratt's nephew hiding out in the potting shed.  And the arguments over the way the local hospital ought to be run that began in episodes 3 and 4 of Season 1 (Isobel wins a victory with the dropsy patient, then misdiagnoses poor Mosley only to have Violet figure out the problem) are back at the fore-front for this, the final season.  It really does look like it's time for the show to end if nothing original is going to happen.  I suppose one could argue that Robert projectile vomiting blood on the dining table is original but I can't say it's a step in a direction I like.

Edited February 4, 2016 by WatchrTina

[helenamonster]

I kind of like how the whole thing with Robert was handled relatively calmly. Sure there was shock when he was literally vomiting blood everywhere but usually on tv when things like this happen everyone gets into such unrealistic hysterics. I feel like for the most part in real life, even in an emergency, people are generally able to stay calm and do what needs to be done. It also helped that Dr. Clarkson was there to give instructions. There's a quick moment where Violet asks if she should get water for Robert and Dr. Clarkson told her that giving it to him would be dangerous, so his presence definitely helped things.

 

And then someone mentioned Cora having her "Jackie Kennedy" moment, going to the hospital still in the bloodstained dress. I really liked that. Sometimes it's really hard to relate to this show because I'm assuming most of us here have no idea what it's like to have that kind of wealth and lot of the Crawley family problems either seem insignificant or outdated and irrelevant to us, but that was very grounded and real. Not taking the time to change, just going with her husband to the hospital and "standing by her man." After the dramatics of the blood it was just such an understated, realistic way to go about things. I'm just really impressed with how the whole aftermath was handled.

[Roseanna]

Absolutely. At a certain point, if everyone treats you a certain way, you are the common denominator and the problem is most likely you, not them. Even Tom thinks Mary is someone who needs to be "handled" - that's really not a flattering thing (or one that bodes well for a romance, which is another reason I have trouble seeing Tom/Mary as a couple - he talked about his marriage to Sybil being one of equals, and if you're "handling" your partner, you don't see that as a relationship of equals, you see that as your partner being a juvenile, not an equal). Even Anna won't tell her the truth and she's probably the one Mary has been the nicest to. Even Cora, the acknowledged nice one (the one Sybil took after, the one who is the nicest now that Sybil is dead) who dislikes secrets, has no problem being secretive and underhanded where Mary is concerned because she really thinks Mary is horrid enough that it's necessary. Meanwhile Edith, the once forgotten third-best sister, now sits in the inner circle.

 

But, in fairness to Mary - nobody except Tom knows about what she did for Anna in the previous episode. They would all think better of her if they knew that, but she kept Anna's private issue to herself. I don't think it would have had quite as much impact as if she'd stood up for Mr. Mason on her own, because Anna is Mary's own maid and she's partial (after all, Tom knew about Anna and still said that it would be best to just make Mr. Mason a fait accompli, so he wasn't that impressed) - it's not as easy to imagine Mary doing the same for any other maid in the house, whereas Sybil would gladly help anyone, not just those she liked best. But still, it's something. I'm really hard on Mary, but she certainly isn't all bad. I think her problem is that over the years her family has gotten so used to only seeing her cold, snarky side that they've forgotten that's not all there is to her.

 

I think the crux of the matter is in the last sentence. Mary has long had a habit to behave in a certain way, so the family didn't give her even a chance to prove otherwise.

 

In this matter, there was at least a chance that "what would Sybil have done" could have made her change her mind. We saw (but her family didn't) that she really pondered that  Sybil was a much better person that she is. Unfortunately Anna, like a good servant she is, said automatically: "Don't be so hard to yourself." I don't mean that Mary hasn't positive sides which Anna knows best alongside with Tom, but in this kind of situation when a person looks at herself and honestly faces her bad sides, it's not the right way at once to belittle them.

 

To be fair to Mary, it's really hard to change when one is used to react automatically in a certain way. And when one tries to change, the others doesn't often believe that one is sincere. So one often gives over trying.   

[Artymouse]

I agree, Roseanna. In families, kids seem to get labeled a certain way as kids -- the brainy one, the funny one, the the pretty one or whatever -- and it can be hard to break out of those roles. So since Mary is seen as the cold, unemotional one, she behaves that way, just as she has a hard time seeing Edith as anything other than the less-attractive, less-socially-adept sister who annoys her and can be bitchy.

[Constantinople]

Mary: I don't mean to sound snobbish, but I won't marry down.

Tom:  Was Mr Matthew Crawley so very special in that way?

Mary: Matthew was the heir to the earldom and estate. I don't want to be grander than my husband.

 

I guess that answers the question as to whether Mary would have wed Matthew had O'Brien not deliberately left the soap next to Cora's bath.

 

I agree with those who say Mary will either have to marry down(ton) or remain a widow.  Any lateral or up marriage would mean moving away, and Mary will never leave the Hotel California.

 

But the real reason I'm writing is because I've been watching Seasons 1 and 2 again -- even Season 2 is head and shoulders above the last several seasons -- when I saw this scene between Mary & Violet talking about what Rosamund witnessed between Richard Carlisle and Lavinia Swire:

 

Violet: I still think it's a peculiar way for a gentleman to speak to a lady.

Mary:   At least you think him a gentleman.

Violet: The point is, do you think he's a gentleman?

Mary:   I'm not sure it matters much to me.

 

Apparently it does.  Either that or the times, as they say, are a changin'

[KLovestoShop]

Personally, I'd prefer Denker and Spratt to be married instead of Carson and Mrs Hughes.  Can you imagine the love fights between Denker and Spratt?  

 

The look on Mary's face when they were talking about Marigold was something else.  You know she's going to use this information in a very bad way at some point in time.  No way will she allow such a secret about her "hated" sibling to go without mention.  Sorry, but IMHO, when it comes to Mary, she's a total bitch with anything about Edith.  Seriously, if Robert could figure it out with regards to Marigold, why didn't Mary?  Probably because she's so wrapped up in her own life that she can't think about anyone but herself.

 

As an aside, Edith and Andy, in real life, are seriously dating and have been since they filmed this season.  They make a cute couple.  Saw photos of them in a London newspaper.  

[Roseanna]

I guess that answers the question as to whether Mary would have wed Matthew had O'Brien not deliberately left the soap next to Cora's bath.

 

No it doesn't. People sometimes say something and act otherwise. And we can never know for sure how a person (including oneself) acts in a certain situation until the situation has happened. 

 

One must remember that the original reason why Mary didn't accept Matthew straightaway was because she wanted tell him about the Pamuk, i.e. that she was no longer a virgin but was afraid how he would react, i.e. whether he would still like to marry her (that he wanted it after the war having longed for her years, doesn't prove that he would have had the same opinion before the war). Then when Cora was pregnant, it was Rosamund who asked whether she would really thrive as a lawyer's wife and Mary who said that Matthew could become Lord Chancellor. 

 

I don't blame for Mary that she took time to think what she wanted - choosing a man a woman chose her way of life. 

[Roseanna]

Sorry, but IMHO, when it comes to Mary, she's a total bitch with anything about Edith.

 

Yes she is but why she is such? 

 

It was easier to understand in S1 that someone who had "nothing" (Edith) envies a person who had "all" (Mary). But why didn't Mary simply ignore Edith as she was never a real competitor?

 

Also, it would also been more understandable if their hatred had would have intensified in S2 but instead it happened in S5, when there was no "real" reason, unlike in S1.

[skyways]

Seasons 1 - 3 are the best of Downton. Repetitive story lines became the norm after that.

[Constantinople]

Mary: I don't mean to sound snobbish, but I won't marry down.

Tom:  Was Mr Matthew Crawley so very special in that way?

Mary: Matthew was the heir to the earldom and estate. I don't want to be grander than my husband.

I guess that answers the question as to whether Mary would have wed Matthew had O'Brien not deliberately left the soap next to Cora's bath.

 

 

No it doesn't. People sometimes say something and act otherwise. And we can never know for sure how a person (including oneself) acts in a certain situation until the situation has happened. 

 

One must remember that the original reason why Mary didn't accept Matthew straightaway was because she wanted tell him about the Pamuk, i.e. that she was no longer a virgin but was afraid how he would react, i.e. whether he would still like to marry her (that he wanted it after the war having longed for her years, doesn't prove that he would have had the same opinion before the war).

Exactly. Mary had no objection to the marriage based on Matthew's status when he was the unquestioned heir.

 

Then when Cora was pregnant, it was Rosamund who asked whether she would really thrive as a lawyer's wife and Mary who said that Matthew could become Lord Chancellor.

Mary had plenty of time to talk to Matthew about Pamuk after Cora's pregnancy became known. When Mary & Matthew argued about why she hadn't given him an answer to his proposal, she remained silent on the subject of Pamuk.

[lulee]

I just saw Downton Abbey yarn for sale. The yarns have names like "Dusty Mauve Lady Sybil" and "Slate Blue Branson." Sadly, there is no "Dinner Party Red Robert."

Edited February 3, 2016 by lulee

[AndySmith]

Sorry, but IMHO, when it comes to Mary, she's a total bitch with anything about Edith.

Yes she is but why she is such?

 

Because, well, it's Edith. I mean, I know we're supposed to support the Triumph of the Underdog, but whatever, this is a TV show. Crush her Mary!

Edited February 3, 2016 by AndySmith

[caligirl50]

You would think JF would want to smooth out the rough edges in this last season but he is not doing so for Mary.  

[3 is enough]

I don't understand the continuing coldness between Mary and Edith.  Lots of siblings do not get along as children, but grow closer as they grow up.  Considering that they lived through WWI and then lost Sybil, and you would think that they would grow up and put aside their differences. It has been 12 years since the Pamuk incident.  Both of them have loved, lost, and had a child since then. Both are starting careers in traditionally male fields. They are more alike than they realize.

 

Yet Mary continues to make snide remarks to Edith every chance she gets.  I just don't get it.

 

And I am pretty sure her newfound knowledge of Marigold will cause Edith some trouble down the line.

Edited February 3, 2016 by 3 is enough

[helenamonster]

Apparently it does.  Either that or the times, as they say, are a changin'

 

At the time Mary was with Richard, though, she was more desperate to lock a husband down. The Pamuk situation was still bubbling and she wasn't the hot young thing she was in 1912 (by that time's standards, anyway, Michelle Dockery has remained gorgeous, imo). But now she's been married, has her heir, has Downton...she can afford to be more picky now because she doesn't need a husband in the same way that she did back then.

 

I don't understand the continuing coldness between Mary and Edith.  Lots of siblings do not get along as children, but grow closer as they grow up.  Considering that they lived through WWI and then lost Sybil, and you would think that they would grow up and put aside their differences. It has been 12 years since the Pamuk incident.  Both of them have loved, lost, and had a child since then. Both are starting careers in traditionally male fields. They are more alike than they realize.

 

Yet Mary continues to make snide remarks to Edith every chance she gets.  I just don't get it.

 

Conversely, there are many siblings who don't get along as children and never get over that growing up. As has been stated before, the problem might just be space. Edith and Mary would probably get along a lot better if they only saw each other at holidays and the odd trip up to London. But they've been living together for 30+ years, and while Downton is by no means a shoebox, it's what they're used to and proximity makes it easier for them to get on each other's nerves. We don't get to choose our family and some people are just not wired to get along. Mary and Edith both have their positives and negatives but their negatives really clash...imo of course, Mary's least becoming trait is her snobbishness/condescension, while Edith's is her perpetual self-victimization. Someone who likes to make others feel small and someone who sometimes seems to go out of her way to feel small? Recipe for disaster. Edith finally moving into her flat will be the best thing for their relationship (I assume this is happening eventually).

[sark1624]

When Mary didnt want to marry cousin Patrick was totally ilogic, we must remember that including dukes, marquesses, earls, viscounts, etc it may be 200 men with the tittles, those, about 50 are earls or heirs to an earlom, so basically the pool from Mary must chose is very reduced. In 1912 Mary had 22 years, 3 or 4 seasons, so, with the logic of that time she was in the limit. Any woman of that time, would have chosen inmediatily the marriage with her 3rd cousin, those relations were extremely pragmatical and many said that she is pragmatical. Even after the death of Patrick came Napier, another excelent prospect but she didnt want him. That was the Mary of pre war.

 

After Matthew and having the heir, the most intelligent thing to do is remaing single, she must run Downton, also if she gets married the husband controls the money of the wife, if she had another children her inheritance would be divided betwen George and his step brothers. Many woman of that time who were in a situation similar to Mary remained single but they had a active sexual life, the contraceptives were more comon, also one of the consequences of the war was the lack of men available, the death in the upper classes was much higger than in the lower ones; so Mary could have carried a active sexual life with discretion.  

[Darling Lily]

I also went back and recently finished watching Seasons 1-3 again.  I was shocked at how much I had missed, and how absolutely wonderful those seasons were!  I confess I stopped watching when I heard Matthew was to be killed off, and was unreasonably upset that Dan Stevens would want to leave such a great character so soon, oh well....

 

I finally saw just why Mary distrusts & despises Edith so much, for without Edith writing to the Turkish ambassador about how Pamuk really died, there would have been virtually no scandal for Mary to have to live down.  I would have been furious with her as well, had someone so close to me caused so many remorseful and regrettable moments for one indiscretion to go on for years.

 

On the other hand, I found that whole storyline to be slightly ridiculous, I don't think a young woman like Mary would have taken such a chance with a virtual stranger.  Someone early on suggested that the sex they had would have left Mary 'intact', but I hardly think someone having their first experience would have consented to THAT!  I know the story was based somewhat on a true incident Fellowes had knowledge of, but the lady in question could have been married, or a widow, or much older.  It didn't happen to someone like Mary, I don't believe.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Yet Mary continues to make snide remarks to Edith every chance she gets.  I just don't get it.

 

Far be it for me to psychoanalyze a fictional character, but here I go.  Sometimes when a person continually denigrates another, it is to make him/herself feel bigger.  Such a person may seem to be oozing confidence at all times, but in fact, harbor insecurity.  In Mary's case, I wouldn't be surprised if she felt like a commodity for a long time in her younger days, before marrying Matthew and having a child.  She may still feel a bit that way, and it threatens her that her formerly 'ugly duckling' sister has a world that is getting bigger, while hers maybe is not.  I think Edith may have even put it to her that way once. 

[awaken]

I watched the ep, but didn't see where Mary overheard a discussion about Marigold- when did that happen?  In fact, I was going to mention that her asking Anna at the end what the servants were saying about Marigold had come out of left field since there hadn't been any prior scenes regarding her to my knowledge.  It seemed like a strange thing to bring up after she'd witnessed her father's sudden medical emergency and stayed half the night at the hospital with him, and probably was exhausted and worried about him.  What did I miss?

 

I was also confused about the unsatisfactory meal Carson and Mrs. H ate.  They had a whole scene about Mrs Padmore making up the basket for them to take home for dinner...so why was the food terrible?  what where they trying to tell us?  Mrs P is in actuality a terrible cook after all?  Did she pack just raw ingredients, and Mrs H cooked them poorly?  

 

I also found it strange how Cora, Violet, et all were all discussing hospital stuff as they waited for the ambulance to carry Robert out after he spewed the table with blood- he could have been close to death for all they knew, and they're still harping on the hospital in a moment of emergency??  Similarly, last week, when Mr and Mrs Carson were walking down the aisle after being pronounced husband and wife, the family immediately started in on the hospital tripe!  

 

Also, not sure how true to life they're going to portray this, but if Robert really did have a full gastrectomy, he'd be in seriously terrible shape for life in 192whatever and wouldn't be sitting up in bed looking mildly like an invalid.  Even nowadays, that would be pretty serious and the person would probably lose a ton of weight and be seriously malnourished without IV nutrition, which they wouldn't have had back then.  (And yes, I"m actually a dietitian who works with gastric bypass patients after surgery :)  Although, since there's only 1 episode left, I guess there won't be enough time to see him waste away from malnutrition or post-surgical infection.  

Edited February 4, 2016 by awaken

[awaken]

I guess that answers the question as to whether Mary would have wed Matthew had O'Brien not deliberately left the soap next to Cora's bath.

 

Wow.  That makes my brain hurt.  I definitely need to re-watch from the beginning to be able to put all that together in my head!  So, if Cora had had a son (which, it might not have been...) he would have been the heir, and not Matthew, so Mary wouldn't have agreed to marry him?  I hadn't remembered that Cora's pregnancy became "known" to more than just a close few.  

[lulee]

Although I have not rewatched Season 1 lately, my recollection of my impression is that Mary truly was not sure of her feelings about Matthew - not enough to be sure that she wanted to marry him at the time he proposed. So much happened between them in Season 1 - in the first episode she thought the idea of marrying him ridiculous. It took a while for her to even like him, let alone love him. So the prospect of her having a baby brother also bought her some time, or at least she thought so. She might never have said yes, but she didn't want to say a definite no.

Edited February 4, 2016 by lulee

[SusanSunflower]

Cora's miscarried fetus was male ...  I take that to mean that, yes, Mary would not have married Matthew because he would no longer be heir presumptive, or heir (unless Cora's son died).  Matthew would have been a very attractive and intelligent middle class lawyer unfortunately not-equal-enough 

Edited February 4, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Artymouse]

To be fair, Mary was inclined to marry Matthew, whether or not Cora's baby was a boy, because she loved him and felt like they fit together, It was Rosamund who convinced her to wait until the baby was born before giving him an answer, so she could turn him down and not become "the wife of a country solicitor" if he wasn't going to be the heir after all,