S11.E10: The Devil In The Details

[Tara Ariano]

Lucifer offers Sam a way out of the cage, but it comes with a steep price. Meanwhile, Dean and Castiel look into the angel smiting that could have killed Amara.

[catrox14]

For MickLady....3....2.....1....

 

 

 

It's Wednesday somewhere!

 

 

[SueB]

I was just coming to give a countdown! I'm late to the party. Sorry. Dang West Coast travel.

I'll be left coasting between now an early March. *sigh*

[lmdreamer]

is anybody else getting a basketball game on the cw right now?

[lmdreamer]

i turned it to the cw to find northern iowa vs. wichita state basketball apparently it started at 7 pm.  anybody else seeing this?

[AwesomO4000]

No, but I'm in Georgia, so it could be a regional thing.

[thesupremediva1]

I've marathoned seasons 1-10 since Christmas and am enjoying my first live ep since 2006!

Loved Sam telling Lucifer that his big bro is going to bust him out and he's always bet on Dean. Feels <3 I've suffered through enough Winchester withholding crap recently (season 8, cough cough) that I'm stupidly excited when we get genuinely brotherly moments.

Colin Ford! He's still a perfect young Sam. He's aging...far too well. He's so Jared-like it's scary.

Random thought: Someone on YouTube must have Rowena makeup tutorial. Ruth Connell is pure alabaster beauty.

Sam's and Crowley's voicemails were perfection. Equal parts banter and angst is a good formula for this show.

The Coke commercial with the two bros... Pretty sure the younger one played young Sam fairly recently (when they had a flashback that Colin Ford was too old to play). Nice synergy there.

Wow, even Lucifer is calling out Sam on not looking for Dean in season 8! Thanks, Lucy. Glad we are having this chat. It's long overdue. I don't care that the Winchesters would rather let the world burn than lose each other - it's who they are and that's the core of their souls and the show.

Mark Pellegrino rocked this ep. He's perfectly calibrated his demeanor to reach this magnetic combination of dark, smarmy, charming, and sarcastic. He's that guy you meet in a bar who you'd like to take shots with if he was slightly less reminiscent of Charles Manson.

MISHA AS LUCIFER! That man is a gifted actor. I knew who he was instantly. He nailed every single one of Mark Pellegrino's mannerisms. I need to fan myself, it's getting hot in here.

Is Rowena dead?! Is Cas ok?

I have no memory of how it feels to wait for plot resolution. This could be a long week.

[Demented Daisy]

If I didn't know better, I would think that episode was written to piss off as many factions of the fandom as possible.  *sigh*  

[Jediknight]

Castifer killed Rowean, now there will be no Mega-Coven.  Screw you Castifer, the world needed that name.  Don't know how they expect us to believe that Rowena didn't see that coming though.

 

See Dean, you're a dumbass, all you had to do was say "Yes" to Michael and this wouldn't have happened.  Michael would have also been free to mop the floor with Amara.

[redfish]

Knew Rowena was going to die as soon as she made that confession because that is the kind of closure that is the end for a character. By confessing all that, Crowley got just enough that resolves his relationship issues with his mother. 

 

Also. ARHHHHHHGGG! Why Castiel? Expendable? No. Dumb? Yes yes yes! Does this guarantee his death in the season finale? Crap. Also ITA, Dean should go to Michael. Is that why Lucifer/Castiel killed Rowena to guarantee no one breaks Michael out?

 

That lightning bolt. Was that from Heaven or God/Chuck?

[7kstar]

If I didn't know better, I would think that episode was written to piss off as many factions of the fandom as possible.  *sigh*  

For some reason I suspect a thread will be very busy or some will stop watching for a bit.  Why do I feel this is a train wreck.  Maybe Carver feels that if we all shout at each other, we will eventually turn on the one that deserves it...Carver???

 

I don't know how I feel.  Castifer I guessed before the reveal.  I was hoping I was wrong.

 

Rowena must be stupid.  She couldn't see her reward a mile away???

 

Now Dean's in trouble as he doesn't have a weak back up angel to call on anymore.  If Dean doesn't figure it out...then he'll be the dumb idiot when he can't see Castifer  just isn't Cas. 

[Frost]

I still hold out hope that Michael will come into play somehow.  I don't remember any mention whatsoever of Adam.  Did I miss it?

Edited January 21, 2016 by Frost

[catrox14]

I have to watch again before I comment.

 

Many thoughts to form.

[AwesomO4000]

I am still processing, but I can at least say one thing...

 

Yay! I was wrong! I was so worried that Sam was going to be just about to cave in and have to get saved by Dean and Cas, so it was a relief to see him say "No" and really mean it. Yay Sam, though of course as usual - and as Sam knows - that kind of thing generally gets you punched in the face.

 

Dean should've let Cas in on the plan, but then again he had no idea that Cas was having inadequacy problems. But I guess this show wouldn't be Supernatural if there weren't some miscommunication issues.

 

Poor overconfident Rowena. Lucifer's an asshat. She learned that lesson too late.

[auntvi]

Did anyone predict that even Lucifer would call out Sam on not looking for Dean? I couldn't help screaming "WTF?!" at the TV.  I mean, seriously?

[2Old2BAFangirl]

I'm so happy Dean is back that I'll forgive how bored I was the whole episode.

Why do angels fight with their fists like humans? It's never made sense to me although I know it's because there wouldn't be any fight scenes otherwise.

I won't miss Rowena, she was to OTT for me. And even I saw her being dead by the end of the episode after her "I'd have to love you" speech!

What I didn't see coming was Cas saying yes to Lucifer. I should have but I didn't. I kinda like it for right now. At least Misha has something different to do for a bit. I hope it doesn't mean he dies at the end of the season like someone else mentioned.

Didn't love all the Sam stuff but oh well. Dean is back on my screen again - I'll ride that feeling for awhile before I become bored of all the angst again.

[Ferniesfreckles]

So the part about waiting for thousands of years to get the perfect combination of Sam and Dean was crap??

FUCK YOU Carver.

I'm sorry, but, Collins looks ridiculous trying to imitate Mark Pellegrino. He looks constipated and drunk. He cannot do Pellegrino's mannerisms. I'm embarrassed for him.

Horrible ending. Up until that moment I had enjoyed the episode immensely.

I, too, love Rowena's make-up. Beautiful.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Ferniesfreckles

[Eliza422]

I'm sorry, but, Collins looks ridiculous trying to imitate Mark Pellegrino. He looks constipated and drunk. He cannot do Pellegrino's mannerisms. I'm embarrassed for him.

Horrible ending. Up until that moment I had enjoyed the episode immensely.

.

It looked like he was having a stroke! I couldn't stand it. I'm sure he's glad to be able to play another character, but pull ***way back*** on the imitations. I hope now he'll stop doing that and play the character in his own way.

Not that I'm happy about this - it totally blows....ug....

[Advance35]

I'm not surprised at this turn or the particular character beats for Castiel, I even think it makes sense.

 

The angels loathe him.  Castiel (due to the show's history) is one of the most prominent angels (and unfortunately for him) one of the most childish as well.  He's very short-sighted and mix that in with his near-worship of Dean Winchester and you have someone that is probably viewed as a massive liability.    It's not at all surprising that powerful figures like Amara, Lucifer, Rowena and even Crowley view Castiel as Dean's (and Sam's) pet angel.

 

That said, it's always good to see Castiel interact with Crowley because you get the sense that just looking at Castiel makes Crowley want to tear his own hair out.   Though he has that effect on just about everyone (Dean and Sam love him as much as they can anyone not possessing the surname Winchester).   Each time Castiel does anything on his own it usually leads to disaster, he's like the penelope pitstop of angels (I say that with love).

 

I only see Cas dying if this is in fact the final year.   I can't see them not using him if the show is going to continue in any capacity.  Though I just realized that in universe I don't think there is anyone that would mourn him.   The Angels hate him, The Demons/Crowley view him as "that idiot angel", and the Reapers don't seem so keen on him either.   I'd imagine the universal shunning is hard on someone that's spent millennium as part of a group that was top of the pyramid.

 

Rowena came to a fitting end.  Causing all the trouble she could for the entire cast before getting her just desserts.

 

Interested to see what Crowley's role is going to be for the rest of the Season.

[HunterHunted]

I don't know who to thank Santa or satan, but thank someone Rowena is dead.

[missbonnie]

Oh for fucks sake show!!! I was a faithful viewer until you guys had Castiel go off the reservation with his delusions of being God. So I quit, and then over this summer I got sucked back in and now you do this shit??? I can't even begin to express how pissed off I am. Blah, I think that I am out again.

Edited January 21, 2016 by missbonnie

[Mick Lady]

Feeling like crap right now, but my God, I LOVE you guys! I'll know much more on Monday, and I'll post in "Small Talk" as soon as I can.

 

Had to post now though. When Lucifer said to Sam he should "Noodle it", Mick and I looked at each other and yelled "catrox!"

 

Each and everyone of you mean so much to me. I can't thank you enough. Bless you all.

[catrox14]

Okay my 1st complaint is WTF was that horrible song in the THEN?? I have never heard it before and I hated it a lot.

 

I called Rowena being in cahoots with Lucifer WAY back.

I called Amara putting the message on Cas

I called Cas becoming Lucifer (along with ERRYONE ELSE)

 

I HATED the visual of Rowena being in a fucking collar and then have her neck broken by Casifer.  Fuck you for that SPN.

 

So Amara can suck any type of soul, human or demon and angel grace in the universe if she so chooses and we still don't get to find out why she didn't touch Dean's?

 

Why is Amara experiencing 'smiting sickness'?

 

Is Dean going to have smiting sickness for the rest of season?

If Dean and Sam don't realize it's not Cas in like one episode I'll be pissed.

 

Michael is just a blithering idiot that masturbates in the corner?  Fuck you for that SPN.

 

The one fucking thing I hoped for ....was Dean's return to Hell being addressed. But NOPE.  I am choosing to believe that I saw a moment of hesitation and fear with  Dean steeling himself before going down those stairs because Jensen remembers that Dean was in Hell for 40 years and he would not be happy about going back. But you know, whatever show.

 

i give up thinking Dean has any fucking thing to do this season.

 

Sigh. :(

[catrox14]

ETA:  Heh, given our discussion in the Bitterness thread about Sam not looking for Dean..he was still fucking quick to defend his position (see also Carver defending his choice) went to "WE MADE A PROMISE" that was never kept before.

 

LOL. Fuck me.

 

I swear, sometimes I wonder if the show is trying to kill itself so we'll stop watching and they can call it a day. Like maybe the loyalty to the audience and the audiences loyalty to it has become dysfunctional. Maybe we just can't let each other go and they have to burn down the show to make us go away. 

 

I'm not totally sure I'm totally kidding here.

And another thing!

 

I totally didn't realize that the show just jabbed "Lucifer" on Fox with Lucifer saying "Move to LA and solve crimes" ...OH MAN...the shade.  That part was fun....

 

No wait..make it another, another thing:

 

So Michael and Lucifer were not actually in the Cage together so Sam wasn't actually tortured by both Michael and Lucifer? I'm confused on that point...

Edited January 21, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

i give up thinking Dean has any fucking thing to do this season.

 

I would think that Dean has got to be the main person behind saving Castiel. And there's still something with Dean and Amara.

 

Why is Amara experiencing 'smiting sickness'?

 

Wild Ass Guess only: Accountant angel was a "biological weapon?" (Her whole thing about being "expendable." Maybe she was supposed to get "eaten" if Amara was till around?) Yeah... as I said WAG.

 

he was still fucking quick to defend his position (see also Carver defending his choice) went to "WE MADE A PROMISE" that was never kept before.

 

Yeah, I wasn't a fan of that. Carver just can't let it go, can he, so he's gonna drag Sam along with him. And have Lucifer call Sam out on it, too. *le sigh*

[Zanne]

I totally didn't realize that the show just jabbed "Lucifer" on Fox with Lucifer saying "Move to LA and solve crimes" ...OH MAN...the shade.  That part was fun....

 

 

I thought they were referring to Angel, Buffy's ex-boyfriend (and the name of his show!) who moved to LA to solve crime...Lucifer is an angel and Angel was named Angel.

 

But I was a huge Buffy fan, so it all comes back to Buffy.

[catrox14]

 

I would think that Dean has got to be the main person behind saving Castiel. And there's still something with Dean and Amara.

 

I'm not that optimistic anymore.  I think he'll get sidelined once he admits to Sam that she's a problem for him. I think Sam will think he's responsible for Cas' demise and he'll need to set that right but he won't trust Dean to be able to be objective about Amara once he learns about his connection to her (see Ruby flip around from s4 and Sam not believing Dean when he said he was handling the Mark last season). 

I thought they were referring to Angel, Buffy's ex-boyfriend (and the name of his show!) who moved to LA to solve crime...Lucifer is an angel and Angel was named Angel.

 

But I was a huge Buffy fan, so it all comes back to Buffy.

 

An 'Angel' reference now would be unlikely, but maybe. 

 

I still think it was a shot at "Lucifer" because "LuciferIsComing" was used in the Lucifer promotions by Fox recently and it's being filmed at the same studio as SPN.

[HunterHunted]

I thought they were referring to Angel, Buffy's ex-boyfriend (and the name of his show!) who moved to LA to solve crime...Lucifer is an angel and Angel was named Angel.

 

But I was a huge Buffy fan, so it all comes back to Buffy.

I'm almost positive that it was a jab about Lucifer on Fox. The premise of the show is that Lucifer is bored with hell, leaves it, goes to LA, becomes a police consultant, and helps to solve crimes.

[SueB]

Working off my cell tonight so I'll keep it quick.

Loved:

- Cas playing Doc

- Billie tormenting Dean with the password. I need her to come back.

- Those voice messages! (SAMs and Crowley's)

- Amara commenting on God taking a personal interest in Cas. I think this is important.

- Sam standing firm against Lucifer.

-the music que

- The twist (Luci in Cas). I have 100% faith Cas will be okay and be relevant in stopping Amara.

-Amara getting smiling sickness. I hope that means something.

- The Cage fight. Loved the tag teaming.

I liked

-Lucifer correctly identifying that Sam's failure to look for Dean was damaging to Sam (no matter how much Sam protested).

-Flashback with Colun Ford.

- Crowley working with Dean.

Did not like:

-Rowena's hate stemming from being a woman scorned

-Rowena dying

-Cas being told he's expendable

- Failure to mention that this was not Dean's first time in hell

Not sure what this means:

- I am coming

More after I rewatch.

Edited January 21, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

 

Wild Ass Guess only: Accountant angel was a "biological weapon?" (Her whole thing about being "expendable." Maybe she was supposed to get "eaten" if Amara was till around?) Yeah... as I said WAG.

 

OH! I like this theory. I adopt this as a reasonable answer. 

 

I'm now wondering if Amara took Cas' grace too which is why Lucifer could possess him?

[catrox14]

 

See Dean, you're a dumbass, all you had to do was say "Yes" to Michael and this wouldn't have happened.  Michael would have also been free to mop the floor with Amara.

 

You know this brings up a point I have NEVER understood.

 

No one else wanted Dean to say yes and Dean really did say yes to Michael in the Green Room and was on his way to Dean when Dean killed Zachariah and Michael took Adam instead. So it's really Michael that opted out on Dean in the end, right?

 

ETA: Re the Sam and Lucifer discussion this little tidbit was a full on retcon

 

Lucifer : Dean? You're betting on Dean?

Sam:  I always have....

 

...except for all the occasions when Sam didn't bet nor trust him...like in S4..and s5....when Sam said Dean was not strong enough even NOT under a spell or controlled. Or S8 when you didn't look for him, or s9 when you said you wouldn't save him because he as so selfish...or s10 when you didn't believe him when he said he could handle the Mark or the other times Sam didn't bet on Dean.

 

HOLY RETCON BATMAN....

Edited January 21, 2016 by catrox14

[Commando Cody]

The part about Sam not looking for Dean always bothered me. Dean and Cas disappeared. How was Sam supposed to know where to look? 

 

When Lucifer and Sam were at the fight, I kept waiting for "What happened to Adam" or Michael. Either one would have worked. Instead, later on, we get a depiction of Michael whacking off in a corner. 

 

I've been waiting for Rowena to die since the day she arrived. Although, I knew Cas was Lucifer immediately and that typical TV trope - as soon as someone admits  that they are the only one that knows/can do something, they die. 

 

...Stay dead, Rowena. 

[catrox14]

Oh geez.  I just had a terrible thought.

 

Could we end up with Lucifer!Cas fighting Michael!Dean.

 

The show would do that wouldn't they? Oh every Destiel shipping heart would be broken. :(

[MilkCartonReject]

I implore anyone who has anything bad to say about this episode or this season in general to go enjoy a lifetime of rewatching the last two seasons of missed oppoortunities, lazy writing, and outright nonsense at times. 

 

Everything about this episode was pitch perfect. The laughs were there. The action was there. The writing was solid. All I have been asking for is the great moments where they throw back to the past and remember where they came from and Sam telling the devil to shove it showing that he has grown as a character is huge. We were in danger of this season becoming a cover song of season 5 and we are now nowhere near it. The midseason finale was good, not great, felt it was rushed and they could have stayed a bit on certain beats but they totally nailed the landing here.

 

The twist was absolutely amazing at the end of it despite Cas being put on the sidelines yet again and really showed a weakness to him that is unfortunate but going through all that he has it's no suprise he is starting to crack under the weight of everything. I can't really think of anyone else on this show being more of an unsung hero than Castiel is. The angel on angel possession was unexpected up til the point Cas was in the cage and then I figured he was either going to get left in hell or exactly what happened. I wonder if he is still in there or if Lucifer has completely taken over his body? The rules changing on possession are getting a lot more murky which is unfortunate. But the rules aren't really written so what are you gonna do?

We all know this show needed this kick in the pants. Everyone has been wondering how long this show can last but if they can keep up this level of execution then I am fine with it going for as long as the ideas keep coming.

 

Rowena died a great death at the hands of the perfect person to do it. Now I wonder if she will come back as a demon? This show may have taken the long way around but we are back at the level of writing this show was at season 4 and 5. I am so happy I could punch the air for hours!

The shots fired at LUCIFER on FOX was amazing. I laughed and rewound that part 5 times because I have said all along that might have been a great comic book but as a show it's stupid, redundant, and worthless.

 

Man I have been longing for the weeks where I used to say "I can't wait for Supernatural" and ending that sentence with " to come on" and not "to end" and now I can say that with pride! WELCOME BACK BOYS! BRAVO!

[AuntTora]

That episode where Sam tells Dean, yeah -- he was building something with a girl, and also there was a dog, showed up on the Tivo the other day and I watched it while doing dishes. I got annoyed all over again. I'm glad TPTB recognize what a big deal it was. Not so much Sam's actions, but the way he expressed it to Dean, still rankles.

[catrox14]

 

implore anyone who has anything bad to say about this episode or this season in general to go enjoy a lifetime of rewatching the last two seasons of missed oppoortunities, lazy writing, and outright nonsense at times.

 

Respectfully, I have watched all seasons multiple times. That doesn't make this episode free of lazy writing, and outright nonsense.  I personally, despite the frustrations of demon!Dean early truncation thought s9 and s10 were pretty good compared to s8.  My jury is still out on s11.  As always Mileage Varies Wildly. and Widely.

[AwesomO4000]

ETA: Re the Sam and Lucifer discussion this little tidbit was a full on retcon

 

...except for all the occasions when Sam didn't bet nor trust him...like in S4..and s5....when Sam said Dean was not strong enough even NOT under a spell or controlled. Or S8 when you didn't look for him, or s9 when you said you wouldn't save him because he as so selfish...or s10 when you didn't believe him when he said he could handle the Mark or the other times Sam didn't bet on Dean.

 

HOLY RETCON BATMAN....

 

It's not really a retcon if you look at the statement as Sam has always bet on Dean to save him (Sam specifically). I don't doubt that at all.

 

As for not trusting or betting on Dean, I'll give you season 4, but season 5? In my opinion, no one had more faith or trust in Dean than Sam in that season, including Dean himself. Sam backed Dean's "We keep saying 'no'" plan all the way from episode 1 (when he almost died for Dean's plan). When Dean lost faith in himself, Sam was the one that trusted Dean to make the right choice in the end when even Bobby and Cas gave up on Dean. Not only that, Sam had this faith in Dean even though Dean had no faith or trust in Sam. (Of course, I might be a little biased since "Point Of No Return" is one of my favorite episodes of the series.) I never understood why Sam is accused of having no faith in Dean just because Sam didn't all of a sudden roll with Dean's suicidal change in plan on a dime when he'd previously been backing Dean's plan the entire time... and in comparison, Dean's new plan seemed both reckless and suicidal, and Dean never even explained his reasoning behind it either... also Michael was a dick who cared only about one thing: killing Lucifer no matter how many people got killed in the process or what happened to earth after that.

[catrox14]

 

It's not really a retcon if you look at the statement as Sam has always bet on Dean to save him (Sam specifically). I don't doubt that at all.

 

That's fair.  I wasn't thinking of it that way.

[ae2]

Billie the Reaper was reading "Death: The Time Of Your Life" by Neil Gaiman.

That is all.

[Trisan]

Well, the level of ranting is strong with this thread.

 

Personally, I loved the episode. Except for Misha's acting of Lucifer that felt waaay over the top. 

[NoWillToResist]

What I didn't see coming was Cas saying yes to Lucifer.

 

Can someone perhaps explain how this is possible?

 

I mean, there was such fucking ballyhoo back in S4 or S5 or whatever the fuck about how Lucifer HAD to have Sam because of his special properties and whatnot. Yet he can just jump into a fascimile of Jimmy Novak now? Jimmy who was only good for a lesser (no offense, Cas. I love you) seraph?

 

Did the cage weaken him and demote him somehow? Why can he now possess a lesser vessel, which, as I understand it, isn't even a vessel anymore since Jimmy left the building and his original body doesn't even fucking exist anymore. And, more importantly, is there even a chance that the show will address this sudden reversal of canon?

 

Oh geez.  I just had a terrible thought.

 

Could we end up with Lucifer!Cas fighting Michael!Dean.

 

The show would do that wouldn't they? Oh every Destiel shipping heart would be broken. :(

 

The moment I heard the speculation that Cas would be possessed by Lucifer, I assumed that would be where we would go. I'm thinking Lucifer is critical to getting rid of the Darkness and then Dean finds Michael and cuts a deal that Michael can possess Dean to get rid of Lucifer. And hopefully Cas will survive the encounter somehow? I think I'd be on board with the concept, but with this show, I don't have much faith in it being executed well.

[catrox14]

I think the TRUE VESSEL thing mattered for the fight between Michael and Lucifer (well, it mattered until Adam sufficed,,) but I don't think it matters for this battle against Amara.

 

Sam wouldn't have been strong enough to contain Lucifer for very long either this time around either since he hasn't been demon blood doping to build his strength like he did in s5.

 

I think Cas is his own meatsuit now. Jimmy is dead, he no longer occupies that space anymore which was confirmed before Cas got his own grace back. So my head!canon is that Cas having restored his grace into his own meatsuit makes it strong enough to contain Lucifer for the time it takes to take down Amara. 

 

That said, I'm not convinced Lucifer is done trying to get into his True Vessel again. I worry that he will use Cas' meatsuit to convince Sam to let Cas possess him when it's really Lucifer using Cas to get into Sam.  

Edited January 21, 2016 by catrox14

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

Can someone perhaps explain how this is possible?

 

I mean, there was such fucking ballyhoo back in S4 or S5 or whatever the fuck about how Lucifer HAD to have Sam because of his special properties and whatnot. Yet he can just jump into a fascimile of Jimmy Novak now? Jimmy who was only good for a lesser (no offense, Cas. I love you) seraph?

 

Did the cage weaken him and demote him somehow? Why can he now possess a lesser vessel, which, as I understand it, isn't even a vessel anymore since Jimmy left the building and his original body doesn't even fucking exist anymore. And, more importantly, is there even a chance that the show will address this sudden reversal of canon?

 

 

The moment I heard the speculation that Cas would be possessed by Lucifer, I assumed that would be where we would go. I'm thinking Lucifer is critical to getting rid of the Darkness and then Dean finds Michael and cuts a deal that Michael can possess Dean to get rid of Lucifer. And hopefully Cas will survive the encounter somehow? I think I'd be on board with the concept, but with this show, I don't have much faith in it being executed well.

Sam is his best and true vessel. However he can possess anyone for a limited time. You saw him in Nick-and you saw what happened to Nicks vessel as time went on. I guess he figured Sam won't say yes, I will take what I can get :-)

[KirkB]

As I recall, Lucifer wanted Sam because Sam had been designed to contain him and not burn up like normal human bodies. Strictly speaking the same would probably apply to Dean since he was built for Micheal. But the body Cas was in isn't a normal human body. It's not technically even Jimmy's anymore. It's built to contain an angel so it should suffice, at least for a while, and Lucifer may be thinking once he's dealt with Amara he has all the time in the world to tie up Sam and torture him until he finally says yes.

Edited January 21, 2016 by KirkB

[SueB]

Well, the level of ranting is strong with this thread.

 

Personally, I loved the episode. Except for Misha's acting of Lucifer that felt waaay over the top.

I'm with you. I think it was an EPIC episode. There's bits I didn't like (like Rowena dying) but that doesn't mean I didn't like the episode. In the case of Rowena, they made a meal out of her character when I suspect they were planning for her after just a few episodes. So, giving Crowley some emotional peace and going out at the hands of Lucifer is a pretty 'good' ending for a villain. And as much fun as she was, she was still a villain. I'll miss the snark, like A LOT. But for her to hang around, she'd need some redemption and I just don't think that would have worked. So... It was maybe a half season early but she had a meaty role in these last two episodes. As Jared said, they were doing things in the mid-season that is season-ending class. So... I'm okay with it.

Why Cas can hold Lucifer:

- God personally crafted Cas a new vessel 3 times (end of S4, end of S5, and early S7). I'll take that as a sign that he's now capable of holding Lucifer as long as needed.

Amara's mistake:

- Amara has said that she gets the individual's memories when she eats them. It's why she immediately knew who Castiel was. Subsequently (and this is a ROOKIE ERROR!), she took on the attitude that the Angel-she-ate had: Cas was expendable. And yet she KNEW Cas was special to God and just shrugged it off that God had poor taste in men. Ha! Was this foreshadowing or what?! God is putting his faith in Cas, Dean, and Sam. God has EXCELLENT TASTE. By letting Cas live, she left a major "God-player" on the board. BIG BIG MISTAKE.

I have faith in Cas:

- So why did Cas say "yes"? Maybe it's just because he's feeling useless, maybe because he thinks he can overcome Luci. IDK. I do know that this is going to workout for Team Free Will. I'm like 100% positive on this. Either Cas will power-up from Lucifer and take control eventually OR they will free Cas and Cas will have the knowledge of how Amara was defeated.

No way, no how, does "Cas" permanently die IMO.

3+ year plan:

- I think we revisited Amelia as part of the old plan Carver had. He wanted to show Sam WAS deeply traumatized by what happened and that he was now strong enough to tell Lucifer to shove it. Sam has grown SO MUCH as a human.

To the retcon complaining:

Not buying it. The characters are allowed to grow. They HAVE to be. If anyone went back to when I was in my mid-20's and held me to stay consistent in my opinions, I'd be horrified. Frankly, I can't remember all of them but I'm sure I'm a lot wiser now than I was then. So, for example, Sam having faith in Dean .... That's a well-earned character growth. S5 showed the strong faith (as AwesomeO said). Plus, if there is one this Sam could count on, it's Dean coming to get him. That's been Dean's raison d'etre since the age of 4.

[Primetimer]

The Darkness Looks like a dream date next to this guy.

Read the story

[Bessie]

So, for example, Sam having faith in Dean .... That's a well-earned character growth. S5 showed the strong faith (as AwesomeO said).

I would add that faith is not the equivalent of being a "yes-man". People question and doubt that which they put faith into all the time. It doesn't mean they lose their faith.

My biggest complaint is Collins' acting. If they are going to give him any significant screen time as Lucifer, they have got to reel him in. I was laughing during the Casifer scene. Lucifer should be menacing, not hilarious.

[Aeryn13]

Why the hell did they waste Jensen`s time with this piece of crap? He didn`t need to shoot the 2 or 3 days this pointless non-part probably took. Why not give him the week off? And if this is the mytharc to be, give him all the weeks off.   

 

Cas becoming Casifer was to be expected. And apparently his reason is wounded pride and wanting to be a hero. Groan. That didn`t endear Sam to me and it doesn`t work with Cas either.

 

Also, I hope Lucifer got out all of his tongue in time before he possessed Cas because it was so deep in Sam`s ass, I`m not sure some pieces aren`t stuck forever. This Season has been very, VERY heavy on the Sam-shilling but this episode took even that to the next level. 

 

The one thing I could identify with was Dean puking. With you there, man.  

 

 

So, for example, Sam having faith in Dean .... That's a well-earned character growth.

 

Even if I believed in such a character growth, you can`t magnaminously declare "I ALWAS have" if it`s a recent development. Always `doesn`t mean "whenever I`m not currently thinking he is weak, cowardly, selfish, clingy, sloppy etc". If you only have faith in someone ever third week or so, don`t throw words like "always" around. That was laughable. And I will still laugh at it when the next "you`re kinda weak, admit it" speech comes from Sam to Dean. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Omegamom]

Well, I liked it. There was humor, there was suspense (I really thought there was a moment there where Sam was going to say "Yes"), twistiness, and more.

Misha better tone his Mark Pellegrino-as-Lucifer down a bit. Scratch that -- make it a lot.

I like that Lucifer is embodied but Sam and Dean don't realize it. Though they'd better catch on real quick, or I will be vastly disappointed; they know and love Cas, and should recognize that something's off pretty damned quickly. Though, if Misha keeps over-the-topping, they'd better know it within seconds!

Lucifer almost had Sam. Almost. But Sam's grown, and is willing to believe in himself enough to say "No". Yay, Sam! Though I did like Lucifer's dig at Sam-and-Amelia.

Billie was under-utilized. We need more Billie.

I'm sad to see Rowena go, she made a fun villain. But, good lord, woman, how could you be so blind! Any person being asked a leading question like, "Are you the only one who can open the Cage?" should get spidey-senses tingling right away. And Rowena as previously written would have immediately picked up on that. Though she does have a hang-up about wanting to be acknowledged as being "special". Hmm.

Speaking of retcons...Rowena said previously that Fergus was conceived during a witches orgy. Now she's portrayed as being an easily-led innocent tanner's daughter who got conned into bed by the local nobleman's son, and not a witch at that point. Bah.

And Crowley in footies was Rowena's dream. Hah!

Must chew on this for a while.

[Ria]

With Rowena's mortal corpse lying there in Hell, I half expected her dead self to come walking through the door since where else but hell would her soul go?

I'm pissed at the writers that Cas is again making a stupid mistake. One of the many problems of having so few regulars is the same handful have to screw up over and over. But I've really gotten totally bored with it.