S03.E08: Breaking Down Barriers

[rab01]

Thanks HumblePi, that explains a lot to me. It's only human nature to call someone out for perceived hypocrisy harder than their other flaws.

 

I figure that everyone who goes on shows like these is doing it primarily to be noticed, to be seen, to be semi-famous for at least a few weeks and to feel what it's like to be the center of attention.  So, it's really strange to me that people would go on the show and then shut down and close off from the process (as everyone is saying about Ashley). If the whole point is to show people the version of yourself that you want them to see, why wouldn't you make a special effort to seem "game" and adopt the persona of someone who is willing to try new things? As a side note, a true introvert would never agree to go on this or similar shows so I would never believe anyone who claims that as a defense. (I was once walking through Union Square in Manhattan when I was approached by a production assistant asking if I wanted to go on a clothing makeover show and I said "no" with a quickness.*)

 

Because everyone on the show chose to be there, I don't think that Neill can really be the "pet rock" that he's made to seem. I bet that he's just been approaching this whole thing with two thoughts uppermost - 1) what should I do or say for the benefit of the person with whom I've been stuck, and 2) how will what I do look to the other people. I bet he just hasn't give himself time to think about his own preferences because, in the end, this is just 6 weeks.

 

* For those wondering just how terrible I must have looked, I was a man in my 20's back then, tallish, average build and wearing ordinary jeans and a t-shirt - I'm guessing/hoping they thought "blank slate"

Edited January 20, 2016 by rab01

[Vinyasa]

I am exhausted over these people.  Everyone except Tres.  He's hopeful, sweet, lovable, and just plain nice.  I don't get any playboy vibes from him.

 

Oh I agree. Vanessa doesn't really bug me and I do like Tres but the others drain the life out of me.

 

I already know what to expect next week-same ole, same ole.

 

What is to happen next week? I swear it feels like they filmed all of these episodes at the same time.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Vinyasa

[Neurochick]

Neil - Dear, pet rock Neil.  Stick him in a corner and he'd probably stay there until you told him to come out.  Forgive me to those who think he's precious, but IMO he is pathetic.  Even more so than David, who at least has a spine.  He was totally taken aback when Logan asked him what HE wanted and was looking for in a mate.  He said in wonderment 'I never thought about it'.  Of course not because he never has any opinions about anything.  He never considers his feelings as important enough.  I would venture to guess he didn't have a lot of "deal breakers" as far as the perfect mate.  His threshold for happiness is so low he truly thinks they are making progress.  Wow.

-Vanessa - She should have married a plumber because she sure runs hot and cold fast.  I feel sorry for Tres.  Every word or action on his part is scrutinized.  She's going to ruin it, plain and simple.  She said she'd tried everything to find the right one, and was willing to go this route.  So how about backing off for a bit and allowing Tres in a little.  Geez.  I need these two to work out.  They're our only hope.  Any suggestion at the end of 6 weeks that anyone else in this group is going to make a go of their union is clearly fictitious, and any similarity to Ashley and any person living or dead is merely coincidental.

 

 

I'm not sure Neil is a pet rock, I do think he's in a state of shock; he can't believe Sam is a real person and not a cartoon character.

 

I get Vanessa, I really do.  Her father abandoned the family when she was a teenager.  Also, I do not know about Vanessa's friends and if they have relationships with their fathers.  If her friends have no relationships with their fathers and Vanessa's dad left the family, it could be very possible that she has issues with men.  To her men don't stick around, they're always looking for the exit and you can't trust them.  That's what I believe Vanessa thinks.

[moonxyz]

I get Vanessa, I really do.  Her father abandoned the family when she was a teenager.  Also, I do not know about Vanessa's friends and if they have relationships with their fathers.  If her friends have no relationships with their fathers and Vanessa's dad left the family, it could be very possible that she has issues with men.  To her men don't stick around, they're always looking for the exit and you can't trust them.  That's what I believe Vanessa thinks.

 

And the experts thought that it would help to match her with a (former/not so former IMO) playboy with commitment issues that likes to party? Brilliant idea. 

[henrysmom]

 

And the experts thought that it would help to match her with a (former/not so former IMO) playboy with commitment issues that likes to party? Brilliant idea.

 

Right on par with pairing an introvert with an extrovert so they'll "balance each other out".  And two "quirky" people because...well, heck I don't know.  Because nobody else was available?

[HumblePi]

I'm not sure Neil is a pet rock, I do think he's in a state of shock; he can't believe Sam is a real person and not a cartoon character.

 

I get Vanessa, I really do.  Her father abandoned the family when she was a teenager.  Also, I do not know about Vanessa's friends and if they have relationships with their fathers.  If her friends have no relationships with their fathers and Vanessa's dad left the family, it could be very possible that she has issues with men.  To her men don't stick around, they're always looking for the exit and you can't trust them.  That's what I believe Vanessa thinks.

Vanessa and Tres share commonality in the fact that both suffered parental losses at a young age. Vanessa was a teenager when her parents divorced and her father left her life. Tres lost both his mother and father at around the age of 3 and was raised by his paternal grandmother and aunt. They've both had some stigmas growing up without a parent(s) so they've probably found it a bit easier to open up and relate to each other because they have shared the same type of traumas. But they're 29 and 27 respectively and Vanessa is mature enough to be able to put her big girl pants on and place her trust in someone. Either she does or she blows the chance to be a life partner with probably the best man she'll ever meet. Even if the very worse thing imaginable happens, there's life after breakups too. If Vanessa doesn't realize that Tres is possibly the most serious, stable, centered man she'll ever meet, then she's making a big mistake. Not only that, but he's a cutie-patootie to boot. What's so bad about that? He's the total package.

Edited January 21, 2016 by HumblePi

[Drogo]

I think Tres is a great match for Vanessa. There are plenty of men who were raised by a single/abandoned parent who would never do that to their own spouses and families because they've seen the cruel reality of it. I'd know.

Also, she can't use the "he doesn't understand what I've been through" as an easy out as she's probably done in the past.

I don't agree with the assertion that Tres is a playboy. The guy's good looking and he's had good fortune with the ladies - doesn't mean he can't settle down with one woman.

[JapMo]

Couldn't agree more, Humble Pie.  While Vanessa is freaking out that Tres MIGHT not be ready for marriage, she's making him totally fed up.  If he leaves, then she will be sorry.

[bichonblitz]

Did anybody else notice that last week Sam said she wanted to get out of that house because it was creepy, falling apart, she didn't like it, they rushed in to the decision, blah blah. She was really negative about the house and of course David went along with it to pacify her. I'm sure the owner of that house was pleased to hear her bashing it. Then, this week she said the only reason she wanted to move was because of the long distance to work. Nothing more said about how she hated that house. She is a liar. She has no fucking idea who she is or what she wants. I despise her. She has not one ounce of class!

Oh, and hey there, Sam, your townhouse is nothing special. Your furniture is beat up and it probably smells like dirty dogs in there. Neil's place was much nicer.So get over your simple self.

*Disclaimer: I have a dog and love dogs.

[Soup333]

What is to happen next week? I swear it feels like they filmed all of these episodes at the same time.

 

Predictions:

 

Tres drinks wine at a bottles and brushes date night and Vanessa, as per usual, makes a big deal out of it. 

 

David may or may not finally be fed up. Either way, Ashley stares off into the distance with a blank expression on her face and complains about him being a stranger. Belle continues to be a cockblock, though not of her own volition.

 

Sam finds yet another way to emasculate her husband. Neil grovels for some imagined slight and then assures the camera that he feels they are making progress. 

[Gigi43]

Did anybody else notice that last week Sam said she wanted to get out of that house because it was creepy, falling apart, she didn't like it, they rushed in to the decision, blah blah. She was really negative about the house and of course David went along with it to pacify her. I'm sure the owner of that house was pleased to hear her bashing it. Then, this week she said the only reason she wanted to move was because of the long distance to work. Nothing more said about how she hated that house. She is a liar. She has no fucking idea who she is or what she wants. I despise her. She has not one ounce of class!

Oh, and hey there, Sam, your townhouse is nothing special. Your furniture is beat up and it probably smells like dirty dogs in there. Neil's place was much nicer.So get over your simple self.

*Disclaimer: I have a dog and love dogs.

 

Yeah, I caught that immediately last night. Neil had a interview scene last week where he went into how much they both (supposedly) hated the house. I can't help but wonder how much is Neil and David really willing to give Ashley/Sam leeway, and how much is them feeling a need to cover in order to "perform" and make sure they can't get accused of not complying with the contract/rules because the women can't seem to get there are certain things that should be done in order to save themselves from that aspect of it. They probably don't know what the others say in their interviews so Neil and Sam may have talked about saying they hate the house, but then Sam ended up giving a version of the truth at some point in time. I thought Neil's excuses last week for hating the house were a bit random, at one point he said "there's a basement"...which... what?! That's stuck in my head because of how strange I found it. Unless Ryan R from last season came with it, I don't get what a big deal about just a basement is.

[HumblePi]

Predictions:

 

Tres drinks wine at a bottles and brushes date night and Vanessa, as per usual, makes a big deal out of it. 

 

David may or may not finally be fed up. Either way, Ashley stares off into the distance with a blank expression on her face and complains about him being a stranger. Belle continues to be a cockblock, though not of her own volition.

 

Sam finds yet another way to emasculate her husband. Neil grovels for some imagined slight and then assures the camera that he feels they are making progress. 

The moods of Vanessa when she becomes silent and non-communicative with Tres makes me wonder which comes first in a relationship, particularly those depicted in these scenarios. It's sort of a which came first, the chicken or the egg question.

 

What comes first, true acceptance of each others shortcomings that evolve into feelings of love, or feelings of love that eventually develop into acceptance of shortcomings?

[Sunnyside]

Poor Neil. This experiment has turned him into a robot.

Sam is a roach. I'd like to get a can of RAID and spray her off my TV.

Vanessa needs to chill and enjoy the ride. so what if it doesn't work out. At least you had a good ride.

Tres, just try to stay sober please, for your own sake.

[okerry]

I want to play Devil's Advocate (or maybe Ashley's Advocate, lol) for just a moment.

 

I do agree that she is incredibly shut down and not really giving David a chance. But as I mentioned elsewhere on one of these threads, David's approach is really, really clumsy and he's actually not helping things at all.

 

I just watched the scene again where he puts his arm around her (and she does not object) and gives her a tiny little kiss on the Ferris Wheel. Now, she doesn't kiss him back, but does go along with the arm around the shoulder and the peck on the cheek. For her, this is progress. But what does David do? He immediately bitches that it's not good enough.

 

And I understand that it isn't. But that was not the time to say so. If he had given her a little squeeze, or told her how nice her perfume smells, or how much he was enjoying being up on the Ferris wheel enjoying the view with her, it would have been another small step towards getting her to relax.

 

But David never does that. He's either:

 

1) attempting some small intimacy and then blowing up and stalking off if it's not returned fast enough. The clock is always running.

2) getting a little response (like her allowing the arm around her shoulder, or a hug) and immediately pushing for more (a kiss, or tackling her onto the bed,)

3) complaining that whatever response he does get isn't good enough (the kiss.)

 

These are all things that ARE under his control. Yes, she's a cold fish, but I'm sorry - David's approach stinks. I have been around guys like this. They expect instant return on whatever they do; you quickly learn that if you DO respond at all, they will IMMEDIATELY push for more and more and more; and if they do get a response, they are never complimentary but instead just whine that it's not enough.

 

David: If you have a shy girl, and she finally hugs you (which Ashley did do, however hesitantly,) the LAST thing you should do is literally throw her on the bed - which is exactly what he did! You are confusing "frustration" with "patience." They're not the same thing. Draw her out. Give her a chance to respond. Trust me: You can make any woman shut down by behaving like this. Better luck with the next one!

[HumblePi]

I want to play Devil's Advocate (or maybe Ashley's Advocate, lol) for just a moment.

 

I do agree that she is incredibly shut down and not really giving David a chance. But as I mentioned elsewhere on one of these threads, David's approach is really, really clumsy and he's actually not helping things at all.

 

I just watched the scene again where he puts his arm around her (and she does not object) and gives her a tiny little kiss on the Ferris Wheel. Now, she doesn't kiss him back, but does go along with the arm around the shoulder and the peck on the cheek. For her, this is progress. But what does David do? He immediately bitches that it's not good enough.

 

And I understand that it isn't. But that was not the time to say so. If he had given her a little squeeze, or told her how nice her perfume smells, or how much he was enjoying being up on the Ferris wheel enjoying the view with her, it would have been another small step towards getting her to relax.

 

But David never does that. He's either:

 

1) attempting some small intimacy and then blowing up and stalking off if it's not returned fast enough. The clock is always running.

2) getting a little response (like her allowing the arm around her shoulder, or a hug) and immediately pushing for more (a kiss, or tackling her onto the bed,)

3) complaining that whatever response he does get isn't good enough (the kiss.)

 

These are all things that ARE under his control. Yes, she's a cold fish, but I'm sorry - David's approach stinks. I have been around guys like this. They expect instant return on whatever they do; you quickly learn that if you DO respond at all, they will IMMEDIATELY push for more and more and more; and if they do get a response, they are never complimentary but instead just whine that it's not enough.

 

David: If you have a shy girl, and she finally hugs you (which Ashley did do, however hesitantly,) the LAST thing you should do is literally throw her on the bed - which is exactly what he did! You are confusing "frustration" with "patience." They're not the same thing. Draw her out. Give her a chance to respond. Trust me: You can make any woman shut down by behaving like this. Better luck with the next one!

That was extremely insightful okerry and I agree. The full blown attempts David makes at thrusting himself towards Ashley is possibly the reason she's so put off by it. I think I would probably respond the same. I don't like overly aggressiveness from any man. I just don't think David knows any other approach. I do think that Ashley would feel a little more comfortable if she didn't feel the pressure to connect so intensely. Maybe if David had hung back a little and waited patiently for Ashley to step out of her comfort zone a little more without being pulled out of it, it might be a different Ashley we'd see.

Edited January 21, 2016 by HumblePi

[okerry]

I don't like overly aggressiveness from any man. I just don't think David knows any other approach. I do think that Ashley would feel a little more comfortable if she didn't feel the pressure to connect so intensely. Maybe if David had hung back a little and waited patiently for Ashley to step out of her comfort zone a little more without being pulled out of it, it might be a different Ashley we'd see.

Yes. He probably doesn't see it as aggression, but that's what it feels like to be on the receiving end. I agree that he's a nice guy that doesn't know any other way to approach a woman because men are rarely taught better.. Begging and pressuring are not foreplay, and they're not courtship, but an awful lot of men are convinced that they are and then get extremely frustrated when (of course) that approach doesn't work.

 

And IMHO, he wouldn't have to just hang back, but gently draw her out by encouraging any small sign she shows instead of whining that it's not enough or, even worse, immediately pushing for more. No guarantees, of course, but men who are smart enough to gently encourage a shy girl get a lot farther than the guy who finally gets a small hug and them immediately throws her on the bed! No, no, and no!

 

Edited to add: I think we should send Dr. Sexologist a bill for the advice! If we can see this at home, why can't she??

Edited January 21, 2016 by okerry

[sisterscouch]

I feel that Jessica from season 2 and David would make a great pair. She craves love and affection and he seems more than willing to share both of those things. I feel like she would appreciate his approach, however "clunky" as it may be, than Ashley ever would.

Sam getting a promotion is what's wrong with corporate America.

[Sunnyside]

I agree with the above posts about David's failed attempts and why. He is treating this like a task at work to just get it done, or maybe he's just too impatient to put the real ground work To allow time for anything to grow, or to face and accept the consequence that the chemistry may not show up show up at all, spite the effort. Signing up for this doesn't guarentee a wife-for-life. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's a crap shoot. David will need to grasp a big lesson if he chooses, on how to just let go and move on.

[still hoping]

Yikes....I think we have been played.

 

The "secret" of season 3 might be that 2 "submissive" men were put with their ideal "mistress" - there to use and abuse them

 

Ice queen Ashley has David at her beck and call....maybe the "cut" scenes involve her in leather and him wearing a dog collar?

 

Sam might be in latex catsuit as she and the sugar gliders keep Neil in check ...maybe her roomie joins in? When she told him something about

Betty Crocker the kitchen? are me missing scenes of him in a maid outfit at her beck and call? Hey some men love that stuff so maybe 

if we have a mistress and submissive the experts were right? Match made in heaven/purgatory?

 

As for Trey and Vanessa= here we can witness a nice fun guy who goes along with anything....gee thanks for the tickets to the game....sure I can come to the party....get married? well I thought it was a dating show but yeah, why not? "My wife is so pretty" (if I can remember her name)

I do like Vanessa but I hope she keeps it "light" cause I have a feeling Tres will give up very very easily at the first sign of real problems. 

 

I wonder how long before Ashley give's David's pal a call? Will she wait till the "day of decision" or if she is truly sadistic, maybe she snagged his number that night?

[ketose]

I feel that Jessica from season 2 and David would make a great pair. She craves love and affection and he seems more than willing to share both of those things. I feel like she would appreciate his approach, however "clunky" as it may be, than Ashley ever would.

Sam getting a promotion is what's wrong with corporate America.

I think Ashley may actually be a replicant based on Jessica from S2. The programmers did a poor job. I think if Stalker Ryan was put with Ashley, the police would have been called before the honeymoon was over.

 

It's possible David has been edited as more aggressive with Ashley than he was. David claims that he had a little more contact with Ashley off camera. I think maybe David is getting the "secret creeper" edit this season. The only way I get on Ashley's side on this is if:

1. David ignores Ashley and it drives her crazy.
2. Ashley agrees to have sex with David just to boost her self esteem.
3. David parties with strippers anyway.

 

I have to cut Neil a little slack. He could stand up to Sam, but then she would shoot him with one of her Dad's guns and Neil would be dead. I vote for Neil to keep himself alive.

 

I think it was pretty clear from the casting episode that the show wanted a Black couple and Tres was one of the fewer decent Black guys who didn't want to date outside his race.

[Jack Sampson]

There is a fine line on how aggressive a man has to be - but he does have to be aggressive. Otherwise he'll end up in a perpetual state of being friendzoned.

It's like others have said, she's just not ever going to be into him. It's got nothing to do with being too aggressive, it's all about not being handsome enough for her. She made up her mind walking down the isle. If he was her type, throwing her on the bed would have ended in sex.

David's only winning move is to find another woman...quickly. Staying around Ashley will destroy his self esteem.

Frankly, I think David realizes this. I think the "aggression" we're seeing from David is a last push for something to happen. The man has reached the end of his patience and he's giving it one last chance before moving on.

And really, so what if she eventually responds, the woman just isn't worth the wait.

[RedheadZombie]

I'm not team Sam, but I saw a little of what frustrates her about Neil.  He wasn't just teasing back with his comment.  His tone said he meant it, and then he whined when he got a response.  He seems passive aggressive - at least in that exchange.  I think Sam is very literal, and obtuse.  He will have to spell everything out clearly.  He can't expect her to just guess, or predict what his response really means.  Yes, most of us would balk at getting no closet space and no house key.  But Neil says, "ok", then sulks.

 

Dave: Belle isn't the cockblock, it's Ashley keeping her between you. She can't jump that high. That watch inscription wasn't telling you to keep waiting for her, now you're digging on desperation.

 

I think we've finally seen why Ashley keeps Belle front and center.  She capitulates to a hug, and BAM - David picks her and leaps onto the bed with her.  When Ashley pulls away, he comes up red-faced, panting and frustrated.  Then he calls her dog a cock-blocker.  He acts like she initiated sex and then changed her mind after he put the condom on.  I've felt sorry for Dave this whole time, but his pushiness would put me off. 

[Sunnyside]

I think it was pretty clear from the casting episode that the show wanted a Black couple and Tres was one of the fewer decent Black guys who didn't want to date outside his race.

Tres stated in his TH during the wedding preparation episode 1 "I've said from the beginning, any race you put out there is going to be fine with me." I think the others only preferred to date outside their race according to the experts and Tres was open.

[BunnySlippers]

I think one reason why David is getting pushy might be that he feels like he has to save face in front of his friends. When they went out for a drink, they asked him if they'd kissed, and the friends didn't like it very much that they hadn't. I wonder if David feels like he has to show that he's man enough to win this woman over. And, since the clock is ticking, he's getting more and more desperate to move things forward. Also, in the beginning, he said something like the reason he hadn't had much luck with dating was that he's always too quick to take the relationship seriously. I think he really, really wants to be married, and he's afraid that if he can't win Ashley over, then he'll be back to square one.

 

Unfortunately, his impatient pushiness has the exact opposite effect of what he wants to achieve. I get it that he wants to move forward, but I also get it that when you're not attracted to someone, constantly trying to force intimacy by trying to bully you into kissing them or throwing you on the bed will just make things worse.

Edited January 21, 2016 by BunnySlippers

[still hoping]

Although I might snark there are some things about Ashley that I can sympathize with : since it is season 3 she has watched the show and she knows she "can't win"..\

 

she just is not attracted to David. So what to do....jump into it and have friends, family, classmates see and then break up?  Live a lie for cameras and z list fame?

 

 One gal in UK dropped right before the "wed"....family, friends pressure. Maybe Ashley was on the verge of that? I think at some point she shut down and has a lot of regrets. Really very few people come out of this show looking good IMHO. 

[izabella]

I don't get why David wants to move forward.  He's seen how Ashley is, so what has he seen that makes him want to keep trying so hard to be with her?

 

Same with Neil.  Sam couldn't be more clear - her actions in moving back home and wanting Neil to be a guest are very clear.  I think he's checking out, but hasn't quite yet.

 

Vanessa, no husband can fix your abandonment issues.  That's on you, and until you fix those, you'll keep being disappointed.

Edited January 21, 2016 by izabella

[RedheadZombie]

Should Ashley's eye make-up have run a bit more during her tear-filled encounter with Argosy University's finest Psy. D.?

Ashley was using a tear dabbing technique I've only seen used by Southern women. They tuck the tissue right into their eyes while simultaneously drying upper and lower lashes. It's a little bizarre, but apparently effective.

[Jack Sampson]

I don't get why David wants to move forward.  He's seen how Ashley is, so what has he seen that makes him want to keep trying so hard to be with her?

 

Same with Neil.  Sam couldn't be more clear - her actions in moving back home and wanting Neil to be a guest are very clear.  I think he's checking out, but hasn't quite yet.

I don't get that either. Maybe they're committed to the process, maybe they still really believe in the experts, maybe they just want to close the deal, who knows.

I said earlier in the season, the 3 date rule exists for a reason. If nothing happens after 3 dates, it usually never will. Following that guideline keeps you from dragging out a bad situation. In the real world, they would have moved on...at least David would, I'm not sure about Neil's options.

[Snarklepuss]

That was extremely insightful okerry and I agree. The full blown attempts David makes at thrusting himself towards Ashley is possibly the reason she's so put off by it. I think I would probably respond the same. I don't like overly aggressiveness from any man. I just don't think David knows any other approach. I do think that Ashley would feel a little more comfortable if she didn't feel the pressure to connect so intensely. Maybe if David had hung back a little and waited patiently for Ashley to step out of her comfort zone a little more without being pulled out of it, it might be a different Ashley we'd see.

 

I actually don't think this is fair to David.  He didn't ask to be paired with someone who wasn't on board with his advances, nor should he have expected to be.  The guy is a total extrovert and would have been better matched with a less picky extrovert rather than socially constipated, picky to the max Ashley.  If he were paired with someone who was as receptive to him from the get-go as Vanessa was to Tres', nobody would be calling him "clumsy" and "overly aggressive".  JMHO.

 

I think Ashley is David's worst nightmare.  He came into this saying he wanted to be married but wasn't good at "dating".  With him I don't think that means he is someone who is socially inept and just wants to dispense with social niceties.  I think it means he wanted to find someone who liked him right away, not someone he had to wait until she was "ready" to even kiss him on the cheek.  This would be a salesman's worst nightmare.  He constantly wants to "close the deal" but Ashley won't let him and so it brings out that pursuing behavior in him, like she's a customer he has to convince to buy his wares.  Don't tell me that if Vanessa wasn't totally taken by Tres from the get-go that he wouldn't also have pushed to "go for the close", because he wouldn't be such a stellar Audi salesman if he didn't know how to do that with clients.  We just didn't get to see Tres engage in that type of behavior with Vanessa because she was on team Tres from the very beginning.

[Snarklepuss]

I think one reason why David is getting pushy might be that he feels like he has to save face in front of his friends. When they went out for a drink, they asked him if they'd kissed, and the friends didn't like it very much that they hadn't. I wonder if David feels like he has to show that he's man enough to win this woman over. And, since the clock is ticking, he's getting more and more desperate to move things forward. Also, in the beginning, he said something like the reason he hadn't had much luck with dating was that he's always too quick to take the relationship seriously. I think he really, really wants to be married, and he's afraid that if he can't win Ashley over, then he'll be back to square one.

 

Unfortunately, his impatient pushiness has the exact opposite effect of what he wants to achieve. I get it that he wants to move forward, but I also get it that when you're not attracted to someone, constantly trying to force intimacy by trying to bully you into kissing them or throwing you on the bed will just make things worse.

 

I actually agree with you 100%, but after all this time and under the circumstances of being married to Ashley, I think he has a right to be frustrated and engaging in some pushy behavior with her even if it will backfire because she is just hopeless. 

 

Imagine being a car salesman and told that the next customer that comes in will definitely buy a car, sight-unseen.  Then they come in and sight-unseen sign the contract to purchase and put down the money.  Only thing is, once they see the car they act like they want to back out of the contract.  What would any good salesman do but remind the person that they just signed the contract and paid for the car so they can't exactly refuse delivery?  I can see this from David's point of view.  He took the contract part of the marriage very seriously and expected the person to follow through on the terms of that contract, which in his mind includes physical intimacy.  The deal is already closed, he feels he shouldn't have to continue selling himself to get to that point with her (and take delivery of the vehicle so to speak), so all of his behavior is just reminding Ashley that she is under contract and needs to accept delivery.   And looking at it from that POV, I can't really blame him for for the way he's acting with her.  Which brings me back to the question of why Ashley went into this if she wasn't sure she would follow through on the contract.  I get it that in reality no one could be sure in advance of how they would feel about a complete stranger, but if you're that picky perhaps this isn't the show for you and you have no business marrying a complete stranger either.  At least Ashley  could go outside her comfort zone to try David on for size before she rejects him.  Take the car out for a test drive before you say it's not for you, for Chrissakes!  I think she owes him at least that given that she married the guy.  If they were just dating I'd agree with the last several posts that David is being too pushy or whatever but they are not just dating, they are MARRIED, so it changes things somewhat.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[eclectic]

I laugh when I see Vanessa cuddling that dog.  Poor David, probably wishes he were the dog.  Rarely see Vanessa on the bed without that dog between her and David. It started to annoy me last night.  How much you wanna bet she's got extreme intimacy issues.  May have thought it would be easier if she just married a guy first. 

[Snarklepuss]

I'm not team Sam, but I saw a little of what frustrates her about Neil.  He wasn't just teasing back with his comment.  His tone said he meant it, and then he whined when he got a response.  He seems passive aggressive - at least in that exchange.  I think Sam is very literal, and obtuse.  He will have to spell everything out clearly.  He can't expect her to just guess, or predict what his response really means.  Yes, most of us would balk at getting no closet space and no house key.  But Neil says, "ok", then sulks.

 

I agree with you but I think it just illustrates that Neil is not a match for Sam.  Plus I think she was clearly doing that to him to put him in his place because she doesn't like him and she's trying to get rid of him.  I don't think that's lost on him.  I think he's just shutting down and saying "whatever" at this point because he doesn't want to be involved in a relationship that requires that of him.  And that's fine, he's just no match for her.  I don't blame him to be honest.  My own husband would want to shoot himself being put in that kind of situation in a relationship as to have to balk at such nonsense.  Ptooey, who cares?  I hope that what Neil is doing right now in going with the flow is just biding his time until the 6 weeks are up.  Sure, Sam, anything you want, Sam.  The house sucks because you find it creepy - No, because it's too far from work, yeah, that's the ticket!  I think he's just like, whatever, just as long as it ends up that they're not even in the same house anymore.  I personally think that Sam wanted to move back to her place because she's looking to make Neil as uncomfortable as possible hoping that he'll just go away.  And he does, he is not living with her at this point.  Of course, he's acting to the camera like this is just temporary and he's looking for a place for both of them, but that's just so that he can get the producers off his back about how they need to live together.  I don't think either of them cares at this point about living together.  I can't see him finding a place for both of them with only 3 weeks left until they have to decide to stay or divorce.  What's the point at this point when it's already obvious that they're not working out?  By the time he finds a place those weeks will be up or almost up and unless we've all been sold a bill of goods I see no reason to believe that either of them intends to stay married by that time.

[biakbiak]

Even if Neil agreed to move into the house for the rest of the time, which didn't seem to be the case, why wouldn't he speak up after the first day where he was told that there wasn't any space for him in HER room, he couldn't have a key, and he should play "Betty Crocker," while she goes and hangs out with her bff?

[glitterpants]

While Ashley is completely humorless is general, Sam seems to be all about "humor" until it's about herself, at which point it becomes unacceptable to act with her the way she acts with other people. Anyway Neil is right, they both in their own way have a tendency to make fakely nice statements (Sam with her forced "Yay!" and Neil with his low-key irony). It was hilarious how they both claimed the birthday dinner was such a good time – well yeah, because you barely had to interact with each other!

 

I've been Team David up until now but that tackle was not a good look at all. Honestly I'm surprised Ashley wasn't more bothered by it because it was inappropriate considering the status of their relationship or lack thereof. I wouldn't even consider them friends. 

 

I enjoy watching Tres and Vanessa when they're cute together (it's refreshing to see one of these couples interacting with genuine affection) but their problems are such a bore!

Edited January 21, 2016 by glitterpants

[Booger666]

I have a different definition of physical intimacy than some of you because I don't think David is pushing for physical intimacy at all. He seems focused on affection. He would be happy with hand holding, hugs or small kisses. He is not looking for sex. I don't think it is unreasonable at all to expect affection from his wife of three weeks knowing that in three more weeks they have to decide to stay together or break up. It is her responsibility to say, similar to Jaclyn last year, I'm not feeling it but let's get to know each other, try to become friends and see what happens. Ashley has not been open to that at all. I remember how stand offish she was throughout the wedding, but when David kissed her hand she thought it was charming. At that point I thought that she was open to seeing him as someone other than a guy she is forced to work with. But, then she slammed that door close and hasn't really even been open to being friends as evidenced by her not really wanting to talk to him or do things with him.

[Kareem]

While Ashley is completely humorless is general, Sam seems to be all about "humor" until it's about herself, at which point it becomes unacceptable to act with her the way she acts with other people. ...

I've been Team David up until now but that tackle was not a good look at all. Honestly I'm surprised Ashley wasn't more bothered by it because it was inappropriate considering the status of their relationship or lack thereof. I wouldn't even consider them friends.

I enjoy watching Tres and Vanessa when they're cute together (it's refreshing to see one of these couples interacting with genuine affection) but their problems are such a bore!

I'm with all of this except the last sentence. Sam's personality issues seem especially problematic lately, from throwing him out of the apartment to cackling through the visit with the sexpert, to the monkey faces she made through the Cilona visit to the roommate related rudeness. Her idea of funny isn't funny.

Too true about Ashley being pounced on by David. I audibly winced.

And re Vanessa and Tres, I think maybe her issues are enough to ruin it all while she forces him to read her mind. Curious to see how that approach works out for her.

[bichonblitz]

Even if Neil agreed to move into the house for the rest of the time, which didn't seem to be the case, why wouldn't he speak up after the first day where he was told that there wasn't any space for him in HER room, he couldn't have a key, and he should play "Betty Crocker," while she goes and hangs out with her bff?

Maybe he doesn't want to look like an asshole in front of the camera? And maybe Same is right that he is different on and off  camera. I get that, but the guy needs to grow some balls. Speak up, man!

[Soup333]

I'm with all of this except the last sentence. Sam's personality issues seem especially problematic lately, from throwing him out of the apartment to cackling through the visit with the sexpert, to the monkey faces she made through the Cilona visit to the roommate related rudeness. Her idea of funny isn't funny.

Too true about Ashley being pounced on by David. I audibly winced.

And re Vanessa and Tres, I think maybe her issues are enough to ruin it all while she forces him to read her mind. Curious to see how that approach works out for her.

 

Something is very wrong with Sam. She will never respect Neil. Not now, not ever. Once she saw that he would take her shit, it was over. If he stays in this "marriage" he'll be trapped in a cycle of abuse. Trying to please her, failing, apologizing - all the while being reminded that he isn't the man she wanted. Get out of this Neil, while you have any shred of self-respect left in you. Get out.

 

Ashley needs a slow hand (unless you have dark features). She needed to be courted in a way that David probably can't really wrap his mind around. And no one should continuously foist themselves on someone who doesn't want them. It's hard to accept that someone is just not into you, especially when that person is your wife, but thems the cards he's been dealt. It's just not going to happen. Give it up, David. 

 

Vanessa can ruin this. I'm hoping she doesn't, but there's a good chance she might. At this point, there is no sense in her refusing to talk to her husband about her abandonment issues. They are there. He knows her father left. She knows his mother left. Don't get sad and refuse to talk to him about what is bothering you when he is the perfect person to talk to. No way would Tres say, "Get over it, Vanessa." If she doesn't communicate, how is he to know that he hadn't done something to upset her. Grow up, girl. Tres is Tres. He may not be the husband she idealized in her head, but he is her husband and he may not be too far off the mark. 

[stuckin60s]

A&D -  I have rewatched the tackle segment, there was humor before he tackled her.  We don't know what was going on and if it was appropriate or not.  I do think that D is trying to find something to start with. A is having none of it.  some have said she thinks she is too good, gold digger etc.  I agree there is something off.  Dr C reminded her that SHE said she always goes for the look and it doesn't work out for her and she was willing to TRY something else.  That's my problem with her.  She isn't willing to try.  Even Jaclyn from season 2 didn't like Ryan R. but said she was going to give it a try.  Maturity?  willingness to trust?  conceit? They both had seen the previous season so there shouldn't be a surprise. you have to go out of your comfort zone.

 

S&N - Next weeks episode shows them working on a task given from Dr C.  She acts like she did at the wedding.  Horrible, goofy where she shouldn't be.  Neil's TH said in the preview that they were still not living together, Its obvious that she turns to inappropriate humor when uncomfortable.  I think she moved home for comfort and didn't consider Neil's comfort.  (like Monet - she had a two bedroom apt but gave Vaughn only part of a closet to put his things. No space for his stuff.  she was glad to be in her house, with her stuff, and her pet) once he realized the situation he spoke up.  To her, it wasn't soon enough.

[Liberty]

...  I agree there is something off.  Dr C reminded her that SHE said she always goes for the look and it doesn't work out for her and she was willing to TRY something else.  That's my problem with her.  She isn't willing to try....

 

Let's hope the posers did not match Ashley's character based on being "willing to try".

 

A wedding is a ridiculous point in life to start to 'try something else', which as noted above, Ashley's character is not willing to do.  

Edited January 21, 2016 by Liberty

[Jack Sampson]

Ashley needs a slow hand (unless you have dark features). She needed to be courted in a way that David probably can't really wrap his mind around. And no one should continuously foist themselves on someone who doesn't want them. It's hard to accept that someone is just not into you, especially when that person is your wife, but thems the cards he's been dealt. It's just not going to happen. Give it up, David. 

 

Vanessa can ruin this. I'm hoping she doesn't, but there's a good chance she might. At this point, there is no sense in her refusing to talk to her husband about her abandonment issues. They are there. He knows her father left. She knows his mother left. Don't get sad and refuse to talk to him about what is bothering you when he is the perfect person to talk to. No way would Tres say, "Get over it, Vanessa." If she doesn't communicate, how is he to know that he hadn't done something to upset her. Grow up, girl. Tres is Tres. He may not be the husband she idealized in her head, but he is her husband and he may not be too far off the mark.

When David makes a move away from Ashley, she'll use that as validation that he was never committed and her frigidity was justified. All to try to salvage her image and claim it was about something other than looks.

Tres has too many options to tolerate a lot of nonsense.

[PityFree]

Ashley has yet to show David (or anyone) that she is worth the effort. Does she even have a personality? Of any kind? What on earth does she have to offer a husband? There are many, many prettier women who are nice, eat meat, are funny, are affectionate, are not professional students, etc. 

[Neurochick]

I've been reading posts saying that David

 

That was extremely insightful okerry and I agree. The full blown attempts David makes at thrusting himself towards Ashley is possibly the reason she's so put off by it. I think I would probably respond the same. I don't like overly aggressiveness from any man. I just don't think David knows any other approach. I do think that Ashley would feel a little more comfortable if she didn't feel the pressure to connect so intensely. Maybe if David had hung back a little and waited patiently for Ashley to step out of her comfort zone a little more without being pulled out of it, it might be a different Ashley we'd see.

I'm sorry, but no, no and no.  David isn't aggressive.  Here's the deal, if Ashley found David attractive she'd be having sex with him by now.  David isn't being aggressive, he's acting like a husband.  Ashley isn't shy, she's doesn't need patience, she's NOT attracted to David and never will be.  She doesn't even like being in the same room with him.  The only way Ashley would feel comfortable, is if David had the type of looks Ashley goes for.  

[glitterpants]

A&D -  I have rewatched the tackle segment, there was humor before he tackled her.  We don't know what was going on and if it was appropriate or not.  I do think that D is trying to find something to start with. A is having none of it.

 

I have absolutely no doubt that David was just joking around, but putting myself in her shoes, if a guy I wasn't attracted to had done that it would NOT have endeared him to me more. I agree that Ashley is giving 10% to David's 110% to this ~experiment~, but at this point why does David STILL need to be told point blank that she's not attracted to him? Deep down he knows it, and the fact that he does that kind of stuff anyway means that he either is a) in denial or b) letting his frustration be more important than her comfort level.

[JapMo]

Maybe it wasn't the smartest move, but I don't think badly of David for pushing Ashley down on the bed.  Maybe there's a lot more of this kind of thing than we've seen, or maybe not, but just from what has been shown, I don't think he was overly aggressive.  Just frustrated.  Like Snarklepuss said, he is a salesman. He's got that charismatic personality that wins people over very quickly, and he's been shut down at the starting gate with Ashley and he doesn't know what to do next.  Remember on their honeymoon...he was in the bathroom, I think, and you could almost see him trying to figure out why she wasn't responding to anything.  If I fault him for anything, it's trying too hard.  He should have seen right away that he could not be with someone that closed off.  Even if Ashley opened up considerably, I don't think it's enough for such a fun-loving friendly guy like David.  She would always be a killjoy. 

 

Did anyone else see the 5 minute clip last night right before Cocktails with Chloe (I refuse to pander to the Kardashian "K" fetish)?  It was a new clip about next week's show...not the one where Tres is holding a bottle of wine and a canvas.  Anyway, it only showed Neil and Sam.  Nobody else.  They decide to do something on a list that was suggested by one of the experts.  It's that surefire marriage fixer...the one where you sit very closely to each other and look into each other's eyes without looking away for a certain amount of time.  Well, if you didn't see it, Sam reverts to her ridiculous behavior at their wedding.  Neil is serious and trying, and then all of the sudden she crosses her eyes, sticks her tongue out, and just keeps laughing.  In the voiceover Neil is not happy.  He is upset that she didn't take the assignment seriously.  But, yet again, he doesn't tell her that.  I got the distinct impression that was a turning point for Neil. 

[CaptainCranky]

1. Neil and David. Both of you guys need to grow some balls and split this fiasco.

 

2. I'm convinced the "experts" and producers have intentionally made these horrible mismatches to keep interest in the show.

[Soup333]

When David makes a move away from Ashley, she'll use that as validation that he was never committed and her frigidity was justified. All to try to salvage her image and claim it was about something other than looks.

Tres has too many options to tolerate a lot of nonsense.

 

Ashley will probably do just that, but it doesn't matter. It's a no win situation for David. She doesn't want him no matter what he does.

 

I can't see Tres sticking around long term with Vanessa shutting down like that and then alternately accusing him of being a drunk party boy. She has to let go of her issues or else that marriage won't last.

 

I saw the preview with Sam and Neil. She doesn't want that guy and I do not understand why he would want her. She's horrid.

[crazychicken]

I did not watch it but there is a 1 minute clip up on A&E from the scene

 

http://www.aetv.com/shows/married-at-first-sight/season-3/episode-9/sneak-peek-making-memories

 

Didn't Sam use the excuse this week that Neil was not taking the housing topic seriously as to why she threw her tantrum, yet next week she is back to her stupid childish humor and sees no problem with it. Sam is a huge hypocrite that is my biggest issue with her, she can act anyway she wants and Neil has to accept her 'quirkiness' yet if Neil does not act how she wants she throws a toddler tantrum.

 

Oh there is a clip up talking about how Neil came home with 'anger', to me I took Neil talking in the car as working up the courage to voice his opinion and hoping that Sam did not explode. The way he sat down and reeled off the reasons he thought they needed a place of their own to me was him bracing for the explosions and trying to get it out before she went off so when she bowed her head and said "I am so all in, lets do this, lets start looking right now' with her usual passive agressive tone he responded in kind.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qbV31au824

 

Sam also has an issue with Neil being friends with his ex which hasn't been mentioned on the show I think

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4y15244Cf4

[BBDi]

1. Neil and David. Both of you guys need to grow some balls and split this fiasco..

Keep in mind that the 6 week point has already passed and most likely at least 2 of the couples have already divorced. David and Neil have probably run.

Plus we have no idea during that 6 weeks how much time they actually spent together. I'm sure there are certain obligations they must all meet regarding getting certain footage and trying to make it look like things are up in the air - but no doubt most of the parties decided within the first days or weeks whether they were going to stay married.

Edited January 21, 2016 by BBDi
Duplicate.

[okerry]

I actually don't think this is fair to David.  He didn't ask to be paired with someone who wasn't on board with his advances, nor should he have expected to be.  The guy is a total extrovert and would have been better matched with a less picky extrovert rather than socially constipated, picky to the max Ashley.  If he were paired with someone who was as receptive to him from the get-go as Vanessa was to Tres', nobody would be calling him "clumsy" and "overly aggressive".  JMHO.

 

I think Ashley is David's worst nightmare.  He came into this saying he wanted to be married but wasn't good at "dating".  With him I don't think that means he is someone who is socially inept and just wants to dispense with social niceties.  I think it means he wanted to find someone who liked him right away, not someone he had to wait until she was "ready" to even kiss him on the cheek.  

Yup. Guys like David are utter failures at what used to be called "courtship" and have absolutely no idea how to go about it - and even worse, don't want to go about it. They want exactly what he said he wanted: A female who is immediately receptive and all over him so he doesn't have to make any effort. That's what "not good at dating" means when David says it.

 

Unfortunately, yes, many many men are just like David. They assume that women are just like men when it comes to attraction. Men generally like what they see right away and want to go for it, or they leave. Simple.

 

But many women will take a little longer to make up their minds about a man. It isn't always yes/no right away the way it so often is for men. That's where "courtship" comes into play - being willing to patiently draw the woman out, rewarding the smallest response, and staying with her until she can decide whether she actually likes the man or not. 

 

The worst thing to do with a woman like this is exactly what David does: Bitch and whine that her responses aren't good enough and immediately go for more and more and more. Huge, huge turnoff, but he'll never believe that.

 

There are huge numbers of angry, frustrated men out there who are blaming women for being "cold fish" when in reality, the men are behaving like David. They have the power to change this if they'd only think it through. I mean, how well is it working to be whiny, bitchy, and pushy? How bad could it be to offer the girl some encouragement instead?