S03.E08: Breaking Down Barriers

[Sowkkat]

Sam. Sam, Sam, Sam. I read her twitter feed before watching the show. She seemed to justify the argument with Neil by saying that he was "name-calling." Huh? What is her version of reality? Because truly, she called what he was saying "fake,' and then he reciprocated by saying he learned it from her. He wasn't calling her fake.

And maybe I need a reality check, but who here on this board that has yelled at anyone, a stranger, an acquaintance, as significant other, that they are being fake and to go f@CK themselves? Because, I don't know if I'm just extremely docile, but I never have. She is in need of some major therapy, stat.

[okerry]

I really am amazed at Sam and can't fathom how these "experts" allowed her on the show. Sure, anyone can have a bad moment, but she has shown herself to be a complete and total nutcase from the wedding day itself in virtually every scene she's in. I hope she enjoys watching herself make monkey faces, because nobody else does. And I hope Neil runs far away and never gets near her again. Have to wonder how many other men would ever take a chance with her now. Maybe her roommate will.

[Neurochick]

I like and understand Vanessa, but marriage isn't the place to deal with your issues.  If she's been affected that much by her father's abandonment maybe she should see a therapist.   

 

But many women will take a little longer to make up their minds about a man. It isn't always yes/no right away the way it so often is for men. That's where "courtship" comes into play - being willing to patiently draw the woman out, rewarding the smallest response, and staying with her until she can decide whether she actually likes the man or not.

The worst thing to do with a woman like this is exactly what David does: Bitch and whine that her responses aren't good enough and immediately go for more and more and more. Huge, huge turnoff, but he'll never believe that.

There are huge numbers of angry, frustrated men out there who are blaming women for being "cold fish" when in reality, the men are behaving like David. They have the power to change this if they'd only think it through. I mean, how well is it working to be whiny, bitchy, and pushy? How bad could it be to offer the girl some encouragement instead?

 

 

Those are interesting points; but I don't think that's what's happening here.  Ashley will NEVER be attracted to David no matter what he does because he's not her type.  I'm sure if David were more Ashley's type in looks, she'd be all over him.  

 

Courtship is important because it's the only way a person can find out if the other person is compatible.  But in this case they're already married; in an arranged marriage there's no need for courtship.  If that's what Ashley wanted she should not have signed up for this show.

 

Also, regarding courtship, does Vanessa need to be courted as well?  

Edited January 21, 2016 by Neurochick

[qtpye]

i HOPE Neil runs, but at this point he seems so passive that I would not be surprised if Neil still wants to stay married after 6 weeks.

[rab01]

I have absolutely no doubt that David was just joking around, but putting myself in her shoes, if a guy I wasn't attracted to had done that it would NOT have endeared him to me more. I agree that Ashley is giving 10% to David's 110% to this ~experiment~, but at this point why does David STILL need to be told point blank that she's not attracted to him? Deep down he knows it, and the fact that he does that kind of stuff anyway means that he either is a) in denial or b) letting his frustration be more important than her comfort level.

If I were him I would need her to say it out loud so that (1) I could write off the relationship permanently in my head, and (2) leave the relationship without either person having to feel guilt about its end. If it's left unstated, she can later blame me for something I did or didn't do. Also, within another 3 weeks, they have to make it official that they are not staying "married." It seems to me like everything should be on the table before announcing that to the camera. Sure, if this weren't an artificial situation with an artificial deadline, allowing her to just do a fade-away would be a much more normal resolution.

[BonnieLass]

Ashley was using a tear dabbing technique I've only seen used by Southern women. They tuck the tissue right into their eyes while simultaneously drying upper and lower lashes. It's a little bizarre, but apparently effective.

As a Southern woman, I feel I can explain this one.

 

It's to keep your eyeliner/mascara from smudging. You can 'dab up' the tears before they fall and possibly save your eye makeup in the process!  :)

Edited January 21, 2016 by BonnieLass

[seasick]

First of all, I couldn't believe dumb Dr. C telling Neil he communicates well!  Yes, Neil is intelligent and rational in his speech, but is clueless about recognizing his feelings and communicating them.  "Neil is analytical" .  Yes he is--to the extreme.  Very often being "analytical" is a defense against emotion.  Analytical types can tell you what they Think, but often not how they Feel.  Neil is extremely slow on the uptake and recognition of his feelings, and clueless on how to share them..esp. if they are negative. .  

 

Neil is also clueless on how to deal with an aggressive, rude, abusive and selfish personality such as Sam.. (not easy I agree)   But I've been frustrated with Neil's cerebral approach to everything and how he distances himself from reality.   However it never excuses Sam's abuse.

 

I would NEVER credit the 'experts' with formulating this match with any wisdom or foresight, but I do hope that because the insults are so blatant that Neil is forced to acknowledge his feelings and confront rude and abusive Sam appropriately.   Yeah--he needs to "grow a pair!"  .  In many ways he's taking the easy way out.

 

I agree with redheadzombie  that Neil can be 'passive aggressive" .(Of course Sam is Totally P/A)    On their honeymoon Neil purposely started a fight with Sam by calling her "fake" in order to  confront her on her "pussy" comments.  I guess it was a clumsy start for clueless Neil in confronting an issue, but he retreated immediately and bought into her deflection about timing and bullshit about not Sam not realizing she was insulting..

 

The sad (but typical) part is now Sam has never let Neil forget that 'fake" remark and has beaten him with that same stick since..  ("Camera Neil, "that was fake" and I'll bet there's been more)   But before Sam called Neil "fake" just for over emphasizing his willingness to look for a house,  Sam does her whole P/A , fake sarcastic act  that  crazy chicken mentions above by throwing her head down in disgust, and through her mop of hair says how "She's So all in...."  (It DOES take one (fake) to know one!! )  Neil's a 'nice guy' but he seriously backward in dealing with his feeling and other people.  

 

I'm also confused by Neil's  "what just happened???"  cries after he insults Sam.  I don't buy that he believes that Sam would not be insulted just because she herself is so rude and insulting.   Gotta call Bullshit on that.  I don't blame him--but at least own it.  Say "you can sure dish it but you can't take it huh?"  or something.  He seriously seems to feign complete cluelessness.  He really is learning bullshit   "from the best".!    I feel bad for Neil, but he's got some growing up to do as well.

 

So many great posts and insights here.  Way too many to quote.!  I'll be back to rip on the rest of the players later.

[Soup333]

I like and understand Vanessa, but marriage isn't the place to deal with your issues.  If she's been affected that much by her father's abandonment maybe she should see a therapist.   

 

 

Those are interesting points; but I don't think that's what's happening here.  Ashley will NEVER be attracted to David no matter what he does because he's not her type.  I'm sure if David were more Ashley's type in looks, she'd be all over him.  

 

Courtship is important because it's the only way a person can find out if the other person is compatible.  But in this case they're already married; in an arranged marriage there's no need for courtship.  If that's what Ashley wanted she should not have signed up for this show.

 

Also, regarding courtship, does Vanessa need to be courted as well?  

 

I agree about Ashley never being attracted to David, but not that courtship isn't important in an arranged marriage. These people don't know each other from a can of paint. I think in this case they should be trying to court each other instead of leaving it all on one party. I think Ashley might play along and go on the date night and enjoy the dinner he made for her, but she wouldn't make a genuine attempt to do something for David. She simply doesn't want him and the sooner he realizes and accepts that, the better.

[okerry]

Courtship is important because it's the only way a person can find out if the other person is compatible.  But in this case they're already married; in an arranged marriage there's no need for courtship.  If that's what Ashley wanted she should not have signed up for this show.

 

Also, regarding courtship, does Vanessa need to be courted as well?  

Oh, I will completely and totally disagree. By "courtship," I don't mean "dating." Women ALWAYS need "courtship," and by that I mean the actions her man takes to let her feel safe and comfortable and wanted. It's even more important in an arranged situation, because most females don't immediately want to have Sex at First Sight - and if they do, it probably won't end in a long-term relationship. Just ask Monet and (the one from Season 2 who filed the restraining order on her now-ex-husband.) 

 

Courtship is very, very important in a marriage or other long-term relationship, so of course Vanessa needs courtship as well! It looks to me like both Tres and Season 2 Jason had some clue about this, and as far as we know might actually have real marriages. 

 

If anyone - bride or groom - is coming into this with the idea that "no courtship is needed because this is an arranged marriage, there's supposed to be free and instant sex!" - Well, that would sure explain David, wouldn't it? And even Monet. But even though the head might believe that, the heart does not. Several of the failures on MAFS can be explained by exactly this, IMHO.

 

I find this sort of thing very interesting to discuss, so all of y'all please feel free to respond!

[Snarklepuss]

Yup. Guys like David are utter failures at what used to be called "courtship" and have absolutely no idea how to go about it - and even worse, don't want to go about it. They want exactly what he said he wanted: A female who is immediately receptive and all over him so he doesn't have to make any effort. That's what "not good at dating" means when David says it.

 

Unfortunately, yes, many many men are just like David. They assume that women are just like men when it comes to attraction. Men generally like what they see right away and want to go for it, or they leave. Simple.

 

But many women will take a little longer to make up their minds about a man. It isn't always yes/no right away the way it so often is for men. That's where "courtship" comes into play - being willing to patiently draw the woman out, rewarding the smallest response, and staying with her until she can decide whether she actually likes the man or not. 

 

The worst thing to do with a woman like this is exactly what David does: Bitch and whine that her responses aren't good enough and immediately go for more and more and more. Huge, huge turnoff, but he'll never believe that.

 

There are huge numbers of angry, frustrated men out there who are blaming women for being "cold fish" when in reality, the men are behaving like David. They have the power to change this if they'd only think it through. I mean, how well is it working to be whiny, bitchy, and pushy? How bad could it be to offer the girl some encouragement instead?

 

Excellent points, only again I have to put myself in David's shoes and imagine that the rejection factor is giving rise to some of his behavior.  I know that if I were married to a guy on this show and he went on for weeks like a brick wall with the "I just don't find you attractive" excuse and made zero effort to even try to find me a little attractive, I might act a little bit like David too.  In fact, most women I know would feel so rejected they'd probably act out even worse than David by dressing in sexy lingerie, attempt to get him drunk and fall at his feet or in some cases outright leave in a huff.  I'm not saying it's perfect behavior or that it would help the situation, but I would find it understandable under the circumstances. 

 

In my experience, there really is no encouragment for a person like Ashley.  The only thing David can constructively do is just back way off and hope that one day she'll see the light about him.  But is that realistic to expect from him under these very uncommon circumstances?  Probably not, especially because they're living together and even sharing a bed (as far as we know), so David can't pull far back enough for Ashley even if he tried unless he were to go live somewhere else and just date her.  If they weren't already married with a six week deadline over their heads about making a decision to stay married or get divorced in a few weeks, I'd say yeah, he should back off and see what happens, but that's not the case here. 

 

The rules of the show itself are sabotaging any feelings from developing in Ashley all by themselves whether or not David was acting pushy at this point.  If what Ashley said is true about herself and it takes her that long to come around about a guy then David was F#%$-ed from the start no matter how he acted.  There just isn't enough time allowed based on the show rules to work with Ashley's timetable.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[Jack Sampson]

If anyone - bride or groom - is coming into this with the idea that "no courtship is needed because this is an arranged marriage, there's supposed to be free and instant sex!" - Well, that would sure explain David, wouldn't it? And even Monet. But even though the head might believe that, the heart does not. Several of the failures on MAFS can be explained by exactly this, IMHO.

 

I find this sort of thing very interesting to discuss, so all of y'all please feel free to respond!

That's quite a leap. David has repeatedly said that he doesn't expect sex, but it would be nice to have a wife who would hug him or even give him a high-five without having to ask for it.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Jack Sampson

[Drogo]

At this point, David would settle for "a wife that doesn't cringe and recoil if I try to comfort her when she's crying." 

[NerdilyDone]

I registered just to say this: stop being so hard on Ashley.  Nothing she's done warrants anger on this level.  It's not David's looks that are necessarily unattractive, it's his personality.

 

I've met people like David before, and they are extremely clingy, highly expectant types.  It's clear even from the first episode that David wanted a full wife right away, when realistically, no matter who he was paired off with, there would have been initial reluctance and the need to work things out. David's puppy-like behavior clearly indicates that he just wanted intimacy right off the bat.  He's a "teleporter", willing to go directly from stranger to spouse.  Ashley's more of a staircase, who needs all those intermediary steps.

 

Take for example the ferris wheel bit.  Ashley started warming up when they were just hanging out and being friends.  Unfortunately, he then attempted to jump past friends immediately.  Honestly, if David would have just stopped with all the "she's my wife" expectations and just concentrated on being friends with her, things would have worked out better.  Ashley did warm up to him when he was simply friendly, and they could have taken it from there.  But no, David somehow feels like Ashley is wrong for wanting to take things slow.  The tackle?  Ugh, what an idiotic maneuver.  How he expected that to work on anyone not completely in love with him is beyond me.

 

To be honest, I very much distrust David, and I don't blame Ashley for feeling unsafe around him.  David has no social competence, and his expectations and creepy affection are the primary problems in the relationship.

[BunnySlippers]

I actually don't think this is fair to David.  He didn't ask to be paired with someone who wasn't on board with his advances, nor should he have expected to be.  The guy is a total extrovert and would have been better matched with a less picky extrovert rather than socially constipated, picky to the max Ashley.  If he were paired with someone who was as receptive to him from the get-go as Vanessa was to Tres', nobody would be calling him "clumsy" and "overly aggressive".  JMHO.

 

Pairing David with Ashley because they hoped he would "break through her barriers" or whatever bullcrap Cilona was spouting the other day was totally unfair to David. Pairing someone like Ashley with an outgoing guy like David, on top of the fact that she's only attracted to guys with dark features, doomed their marriage from the beginning. He would have had much more success with someone like Jaclyn from S2. I think she would have laughed at his jokes and would have come to like him for his easygoing personality and sense of humor - like she did with Basement Ryan - and if he'd done the "tackle onto the bed" move with her, she probably would have loved it. But I still think it was not the right thing for him to do with Ashley, since she's so uncomfortable with him already.

 

 

Did anyone else see the 5 minute clip last night right before Cocktails with Chloe (I refuse to pander to the Kardashian "K" fetish)?  It was a new clip about next week's show...not the one where Tres is holding a bottle of wine and a canvas.  Anyway, it only showed Neil and Sam.  Nobody else.  They decide to do something on a list that was suggested by one of the experts.  It's that surefire marriage fixer...the one where you sit very closely to each other and look into each other's eyes without looking away for a certain amount of time.  Well, if you didn't see it, Sam reverts to her ridiculous behavior at their wedding.  Neil is serious and trying, and then all of the sudden she crosses her eyes, sticks her tongue out, and just keeps laughing.  In the voiceover Neil is not happy.  He is upset that she didn't take the assignment seriously.  But, yet again, he doesn't tell her that.  I got the distinct impression that was a turning point for Neil. 

 

I saw it last night. There was a rerun of the show on FYI (unfortunately, they only showed 1 hour instead of the original 1 hour 15 minutes, so I still didn't get to see everything), and afterwards, they played that preview. It was so typical of Sam to make a joke out of it, and IMHO it was also very, very typical of Neil to - apparently - not say anything to her about how he disliked her behavior. I don't like how she steamrolls him about everything and how afraid he is to speak up. And BTW, that quip she got so pissed off about ("I learned from the best") didn't sound like a joke to me. I thought he was coming back at her for her hypocritical behavior. But when she got angry, he quickly backpedaled and said he was just joking. I really hope they don't stay together in the long term, because his life would become living hell with someone like Sam, to whom he just can't stand up.

 

Maybe he's just trying to be polite and save face in front of the cameras, or maybe it's because he's been taught that when you're married, you stick it out, no matter what, but a marriage like this would destroy him. Somebody mentioned how bad he looked in one of the clips, and I noticed that, too. And that was only after about 2,5 weeks.

[stuckin60s]

  If Ashley truly knew it takes 2 - 3 months before she feels comfortable with someone, and had seen this show, she knew she only had 6 weeks to make it work.  

 

I feel for David.  He is just trying to find some common ground for them to start.  Even on the honeymoon she didn't want to talk in the car ride, she didn't want to go to the pool. etc. I have said it before, she may not find him her type.  that does not mean she wants to hurl when he comes into the room.  she is a professional student.  She could have looked at this like a case study.  she could have enjoyed herself (keeping her comfort space) and learned about another human being.  she could have gone to some cool restaurants and learned how to cook some new meals. she could participate in home gatherings etc.  But she chose to freeze herself, stay in her room, closed off from everything except for the cash at the end.

[okerry]

Excellent points, only again I have to put myself in David's shoes and imagine that the rejection factor is giving rise to some of his behavior.  I know that if I were married to a guy on this show and he went on for weeks like a brick wall with the "I just don't find you attractive" excuse and made zero effort to even try to find me a little attractive, I might act a little bit like David too. 

 

Yeah, I feel kind of sorry for David, too, because he really does have at least some power to change this situation but has no idea how. And I still think that when Ashley says, "I'm not attracted to you," what she means is - at least, in large part - is, "I don't like your approach," but she doesn't know how to tell him that.

 

She could show him what she'd like - and just flat-out tell him that, for example, just holding hands on the Ferris wheel with no other pressure for more would be okay - and if he'd go along with that, they might make some progress. So, yes, she could help that, too. Or just pack up and go if it's that bad, but from what we've seen, I don't think it is. She did try to hug him in the bedroom, after all. I still think it's his approach that's souring the deal more than anything.

 

And with the amount of whining, complaining, and pushing he does in front of the camera, I can only imagine what he does when they're off. He may even be ignoring her completely, as in "If you're not going to respond the way I want you to, I won't touch you at all," and then getting all whiny and pitiful again when the cameras are there, thinking he'll get sympathy from the audience that way. So far, it's been working, but I for one am not buying it.

 

Man up, David. You will never get any female by acting like this. Ever. 

That's quite a leap. David has repeatedly said that he doesn't expect sex, but it would be nice to have a wife who would hug him or even give him a high-five without having to ask for it.

That's what he says, sir, but I can tell you as a female that his actions are far different. There's nothing wrong with a man wanting sex, but using whining and begging  and complaining as foreplay is just not the way to get it - not with a girl who's already holding back to a serious degree.

At this point, David would settle for "a wife that doesn't cringe and recoil if I try to comfort her when she's crying." 

And I still say that if he stopped complaining about her responses - and she does have them, however small - he WOULD have a wife who didn't recoil from him at any time. But if men want to listen to other men on this, instead of to women, feel free! I mean, it's been working great so far, right?

[Jack Sampson]

There's nothing wrong with a man wanting sex, but using whining and begging  and complaining as foreplay is just not the way to get it - not with a girl who's already holding back to a serious degree.

What foreplay would work?

[okerry]

What foreplay would work?

The Kind That Gives Her Room To Respond.

 

I gave some examples above. Start by just holding hands, for example, with no pressure to go further. If she seems okay with that, leave it at that for the time being. Don't immediately jump in and try to kiss her or (gawd) tackler her and throw her on a bed. Let her enjoy what he's doing Now, even if it is just holding hands - and leave her enjoying that and maybe hoping it'll happen again. Which it will. 

 

Watch the signals. She'll give them, if you're at all tuned in. Proceed at her pace. Do a little less than she seems to wand (and yes, that is possible.)

 

Will it take time? Yes, but how's it going with David's approach? At least there would be progress, and wouldn't take as long as David thinks. 

 

See, I was reticent like Ashley, too, and dismissed by guys as an "Ice Queen." The truth was, their pushy, whiny approach was just like David's and it was a huge turnoff. They guy who knew what to do - even as a college student - was an Alpha-type who knew how to take his time. Let me think it was my idea. I'm still with him and never want to leave, and it's been a long time.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Eating Domino's In Bed, And Yet More Things Married At First Sight's David Will Never Get To Do With His Wife
The couples continue to work on 'intimacy' (gross), with a little help from Dr. Cilona. Who came out on top this week?

[rab01]

But many women will take a little longer to make up their minds about a man. It isn't always yes/no right away the way it so often is for men. That's where "courtship" comes into play - being willing to patiently draw the woman out, rewarding the smallest response, and staying with her until she can decide whether she actually likes the man or not. 

Like I said upthread, I'm here for the forum conversation, not these particular unfortunate couples.  You've made some really interesting points that ring true to me except the implication in this one that it's a gendered expectation. Allowing the other person the time and space to come around to their own feelings about the relationship are important from both sides.  Also, something about what you said made it sound goal-oriented and that is sort of ... skeevy. I know that's not what you meant but that's how it hit me. When someone likes a gesture you've made and responds do it with moderate warmth, that should NEVER be the cue to try to go immediately to burning passion. "Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile" is not a good look on anyone.  (ETA - it's a particularly bad look on a man because if a woman goes to maximum emotional volume immediately, there is usually no element of potential physical danger for the man and the same cannot be said for a woman in the reverse situation.)

 

There are a zillion different cues that we all give off and read from others that go into dating and it sounds like David has not been reading them well. Now, those cues are tricky and you can turn someone off by showing too little interest just as easily as showing too much interest -- but, if someone doesn't want to hug you, you probably shouldn't expect them to love being tossed on a bed. To me, that kind of thing only works between people who are firmly friends (without benefits) or already attracted to each other. Near strangers sizing each other up for a relationship don't often react well to that.

 

Also, I don't know if this is the proper thread for it but this conversation has strongly reminded of Linda Holmes' articles about Married by America back before she was on NPR and just writing for TWOP. Anyone here who hasn't read them would probably enjoy it even if none of us really remember that precursor to this show. (ETA - honestly, the write-ups are hilarious and insightful plus there is one couple on that show that had the same dynamic as David and Ashley)  http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/show/married-by-america/

Edited January 21, 2016 by rab01

[henrysmom]

From David's muted reaction when the expert told them to take any expectation of intimacy off the table, I think he's pretty much given up.  At least I hope he has because this is obviously going nowhere.

 

And I don't think it is necessarily any one person's fault.  Ashley is the type of person who needs time.  She's said this over and over again  And she's matched with an impulsive, incredibly needy guy who wants immediate affection.  This was a disaster from the first moment the experts decided these two could make a go of it.

 

For those more adept at reading social cues/reactions on a reality show than I am, what did you make of Ashley's "oh really?" reaction when David pretty much immediately agreed to any expectation of affection.  Was she surprised? Disbelieving?  I'd like others' opinions because I can't really decide.

 

 

[Drogo]

I was reticent like Ashley, too, and dismissed by guys as an "Ice Queen." The truth was, their pushy, whiny approach was just like David's and it was a huge turnoff. They guy who knew what to do - even as a college student - was an Alpha-type who knew how to take his time. Let me think it was my idea. I'm still with him and never want to leave, and it's been a long time.

 

An Alpha is exactly what Ashley needs, but MAFS men are the furthest thing from that.  Not surprising since Alphas have great luck with women and usually have plenty of options.   

 

Question for you- if you hadn't met your guy and were still single, would you have ever signed up to be on a show like this one, where you have no control over who you're going to play house with for six weeks?  My frustration with Ashley is that knowing who she is (someone who admittedly needs months to open up) she went out of her way to be on a show where she'd be expected to make major romantic decisions within weeks.

[lids]

High five to whoever pointed out that Sam and Sammie had a bong when Neil came back to apologize for calling Sam fake. Sam's behavior makes a lot more sense if we know she's a weed head. The need to be at HER house (she probably didn't want to smoke in the rental place or at Neil's), the constant wax melts to freshen the room, saying she had to go to Sammie's room (her sanctuary - where the camera can't catch her smoking), her bloodshot eyes, her jittery demeanor, her irritablenes (I know that's not all weed smoking. Maybe she's ADD and self-medicating), her weird attachment to Sammie who's her smoke buddy.

Also, the stuff about Sam and Neil's ex. Ohh, I remember that from the wedding. Sam claims that she can't be fake but when Neil introduced his ex at the wedding, Sam put on the kindest sweetest demeanor she has ever used and told the ex they would be friends and would spend a lot of time together. I could totally tell that was code for: I want to get you ex as close as possible so I can stab you in the eye with a fork. And Sam started to turn on Neil right after that. I can't believe Sam is STILL whining about his ex. At least she is smart enough to admit that her jealousy of the ex makes her realize she has feelings for Neil. I'm still Team Ex though. How bad could she be compared to Sam?

I'll join in on the courtship discussion. I think that what Ashley is asking for is the removal of courtship. Courtship has an end result, a reward. What Ashley is asking for is a friendship with no expectations, at least for now. To her credit, she did seem to realize that asking for that would be unfair and possibly cruel to David who she said complains to her that he's not getting any chance for romance. Although her tears were self-serving and kind of "poor me," she did seem to feel guilt for how things were going with David. As a woman, you are just expected to show appreciation for a kind and loving man by being willing to be pawed by him period. If you don't, people call you frigid or unappreciative. This was the first time I kind of thought that Ashley must realize how bad she comes off to the audience.

The whole admittance of non-attraction scene was sooo complicated. Dr. C and Ashley could have gotten that out in 2 sentences. "I am not attracted to you. I would prefer if you not touch me at all for right now." But the way they left it, David was like, " ???? I am surmising that Ashley doesn't really find me attractive?" Dr. C and Ashley, "(((crickets)))" If they wanted to put the man out of his misery, just. say. it. That's why I felt bad when Ashley started crying and David reached over to comfort her, she looked around like, "Did he not just hear what I said?" Yes, he heard you, but you were about as clear as mud. Finally Dr. C got blunt and said touching was off the table.

My feeling is that David is a "nice" guy. Nice guys are kind and giving to women, but don't really see them as people. This is why David is able to pretty much carry on the whole relationship with Ashley without her reciprocating. She doesn't want to hold hands? David smiles and says she's a great wife. She doesn't want to answer intimacy questions? David reasons that he's falling in love with her. He's not actually paying attention to Ashley the person at all. He's having a relationship with himself. She could light herself on fire and run around the neighborhood naked and he would say he could see her as the mother of his kids. Now the only way to anger a "nice" guy is to outright reject them. This makes them angry because they feel like they deserve the woman because they earned her by being nice. We'll see how David responds. From the preview it does not look good. He knows that he's been sent to the friend zone for now and really, who would want to be friends with Ashley? But this is good for him. He needs to figure out if he likes her personality. Non-spoiler prediction: The answer is nooooo.

[Jack Sampson]

The Kind That Gives Her Room To Respond.

 

I gave some examples above. Start by just holding hands, for example, with no pressure to go further. If she seems okay with that, leave it at that for the time being. Don't immediately jump in and try to kiss her or (gawd) tackler her and throw her on a bed. Let her enjoy what he's doing Now, even if it is just holding hands - and leave her enjoying that and maybe hoping it'll happen again. Which it will. 

 

Watch the signals. She'll give them, if you're at all tuned in. Proceed at her pace. Do a little less than she seems to wand (and yes, that is possible.)

 

Will it take time? Yes, but how's it going with David's approach? At least there would be progress, and wouldn't take as long as David thinks.

How long do you think it would be reasonable for him to wait? Considering who he's waiting for.

See, I was reticent like Ashley, too, and dismissed by guys as an "Ice Queen." The truth was, their pushy, whiny approach was just like David's and it was a huge turnoff. They guy who knew what to do - even as a college student - was an Alpha-type who knew how to take his time. Let me think it was my idea. I'm still with him and never want to leave, and it's been a long time.

It sounds like your advice is for David to trick Ashley into thinking sex is her idea. That's an interesting approach.

[BunnySlippers]

From David's muted reaction when the expert told them to take any expectation of intimacy off the table, I think he's pretty much given up.  At least I hope he has because this is obviously going nowhere.

 

And I don't think it is necessarily any one person's fault.  Ashley is the type of person who needs time.  She's said this over and over again  And she's matched with an impulsive, incredibly needy guy who wants immediate affection.  This was a disaster from the first moment the experts decided these two could make a go of it.

 

For those more adept at reading social cues/reactions on a reality show than I am, what did you make of Ashley's "oh really?" reaction when David pretty much immediately agreed to any expectation of affection.  Was she surprised? Disbelieving?  I'd like others' opinions because I can't really decide.

 

To me, it seemed like she was both surprised and disbelieving. Which made me wonder how many unwanted advances David had been making, and made me realize that that is probably one of the things that makes Ashley uncomfortable about him.

[okerry]

An Alpha is exactly what Ashley needs, but MAFS men are the furthest thing from that.  Not surprising since Alphas have great luck with women and usually have plenty of options.   

 

Question for you- if you hadn't met your guy and were still single, would you have ever signed up to be on a show like this one, where you have no control over who you're going to play house with for six weeks?  My frustration with Ashley is that knowing who she is (someone who admittedly needs months to open up) she went out of her way to be on a show where she'd be expected to make major romantic decisions within weeks.

Yes, that's a good point - and no, I cannot imagine signing up to marry a man I've never met! 

 

But since Ashley did sign up, I do feel bad for David, and guys like him, because there are things he can do that would help. Girls like Ashley don't need just "time." They needs gentle encouragement from the man they're with so they can learn to relax and enjoy being around him. I know that's not what most guys want to hear, but it really does work - and nothing else is, in this case!

When someone likes a gesture you've made and responds do it with moderate warmth, that should NEVER be the cue to try to go immediately to burning passion. "Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile" is not a good look on anyone.  (ETA - it's a particularly bad look on a man because if a woman goes to maximum emotional volume immediately, there is usually no element of potential physical danger for the man and the same cannot be said for a woman in the reverse situation.)

That's exactly what I was trying to say about David, and that's why his approach ain't workin'. From what he's said about being "bad at dating," and from seeing that he signed up for MAFS for pete's sake, I seriously doubt that Ashley is the first woman who's shot him down. And that's unfortunate, because he'd probably be an okay guy if he'd just change his style a bit.

[lids]

For those more adept at reading social cues/reactions on a reality show than I am, what did you make of Ashley's "oh really?" reaction when David pretty much immediately agreed to any expectation of affection. Was she surprised? Disbelieving? I'd like others' opinions because I can't really decide.

I think Ashley is used to being the one in the relationship who has to "catch up" with the other person's need for intimacy. So I think she's been in previous relationships where the men pushed her for sex and affection. Really that probably happens to most women. I think Ashley's, "Oh really" was a sign of disbelief because of that. But also relief that he didn't immediately attack her.

Also in the social media thread, someone said that in an interview, David did say he got a couple of kisses goodnight. (In this episode, while with his friends, he said he got no kisses.) So maybe he was pushing her more than what we see on camera.

[okerry]

High five to whoever pointed out that Sam and Sammie had a bong when Neil came back to apologize for calling Sam fake. Sam's behavior makes a lot more sense if we know she's a weed head. The need to be at HER house (she probably didn't want to smoke in the rental place or at Neil's), the constant wax melts to freshen the room, saying she had to go to Sammie's room (her sanctuary - where the camera can't catch her smoking), her bloodshot eyes, her jittery demeanor, her irritablenes (I know that's not all weed smoking. Maybe she's ADD and self-medicating), her weird attachment to Sammie who's her smoke buddy.

 

*****You win the Internetz today. I'll bet you're spot on.

 

 As a woman, you are just expected to show appreciation for a kind and loving man by being willing to be pawed by him period. If you don't, people call you frigid or unappreciative. This was the first time I kind of thought that Ashley must realize how bad she comes off to the audience.

 

*****You win again with this!

 

My feeling is that David is a "nice" guy. Nice guys are kind and giving to women, but don't really see them as people.

 

*****Third win for this! An awful lot of guys honestly think that women operate like vending machines: They put in enough money, gifts, compliments, begging, guilt trips, whatever, and the women dispense sex. They really think that's how it works and David sure seems to be one of them. It's sad. Wouldn't they rather learn a better way to get what they want?

 

This is why David is able to pretty much carry on the whole relationship with Ashley without her reciprocating. She doesn't want to hold hands? David smiles and says she's a great wife. She doesn't want to answer intimacy questions? David reasons that he's falling in love with her. He's not actually paying attention to Ashley the person at all. He's having a relationship with himself.

 

****Exactly. It's a total fantasy relationship, not a real one.

 

She could light herself on fire and run around the neighborhood naked and he would say he could see her as the mother of his kids.

 

*****LOLOL! And probably true!

 

 

Now the only way to anger a "nice" guy is to outright reject them. This makes them angry because they feel like they deserve the woman because they earned her by being nice. We'll see how David responds. From the preview it does not look good.

 

*****Yup, that's the "vending machine" approach that I mentioned above. It looks like his response was to text another woman to see if he could make Ashley jealous and make her want him that way. Uh, no. Just try some good old gentle affection, David. For some reason, guys will try absolutely anything but that.

How long do you think it would be reasonable for him to wait? Considering who he's waiting for.

 

*****That's entirely up to him. Is she worth it to him, or not? He's the only one who can answer that.

It sounds like your advice is for David to trick Ashley into thinking sex is her idea. That's an interesting approach.

 

*****Uh, no. It's not "tricking" someone into sex. I was trying to say that my guy allowed me enough space, and used enough gentle encouragement, that pretty soon I was looking around for him and wanting to go a little further myself. Just a small joke to say he let me think it was my idea, but there is some truth to it. And no, it was not a "trick." It was Courtship. You know - the one thing men just don't want to have to do!

To me, it seemed like she was both surprised and disbelieving. Which made me wonder how many unwanted advances David had been making, and made me realize that that is probably one of the things that makes Ashley uncomfortable about him.

Yes. I can only imagine how he behaves when the cameras are *not* around, and it may be one reason why Ashley leaves when they're not filming. Not saying it's a good thing, but it might explain it.

[ctbabe]

Hmmmmm... I thought Ashly's friend said he ignores her. How can he be forcing himself on her when he doesn't acknowledge her? Pleaseeeeeee

[okerry]

Hmmmmm... I thought Ashly's friend said he ignores her. How can he be forcing himself on her when he doesn't acknowledge her? Pleaseeeeeee

Coldly ignoring her off camera, as punishment for not responding to him the way he wants, is a distinct possibility. And it's guaranteed to only make things worse once the cameras do return.

[BunnySlippers]

Hmmmmm... I thought Ashly's friend said he ignores her. How can he be forcing himself on her when he doesn't acknowledge her? Pleaseeeeeee

 

And how do we know the friend was telling the truth?

Also in the social media thread, someone said that in an interview, David did say he got a couple of kisses goodnight. (In this episode, while with his friends, he said he got no kisses.) So maybe he was pushing her more than what we see on camera.

 

If that's the case, then it's infuriating that we never got to see that on the show. Unless she only did it when the cameras were not there. But, if that's what happened, then David is a lying liar for telling his friends he got no kisses.

Edited January 21, 2016 by BunnySlippers

[Neurochick]

Oh, I will completely and totally disagree. By "courtship," I don't mean "dating." Women ALWAYS need "courtship," and by that I mean the actions her man takes to let her feel safe and comfortable and wanted. It's even more important in an arranged situation, because most females don't immediately want to have Sex at First Sight - and if they do, it probably won't end in a long-term relationship. Just ask Monet and (the one from Season 2 who filed the restraining order on her now-ex-husband.) 

 

Courtship is very, very important in a marriage or other long-term relationship, so of course Vanessa needs courtship as well! It looks to me like both Tres and Season 2 Jason had some clue about this, and as far as we know might actually have real marriages. 

 

If anyone - bride or groom - is coming into this with the idea that "no courtship is needed because this is an arranged marriage, there's supposed to be free and instant sex!" - Well, that would sure explain David, wouldn't it? And even Monet. But even though the head might believe that, the heart does not. Several of the failures on MAFS can be explained by exactly this, IMHO.

 

I find this sort of thing very interesting to discuss, so all of y'all please feel free to respond!

 

But courtship doesn't work if one party is Ashley, who's like, "no fucking way" when it comes to David.  

 

The problem with Monet wasn't the sex, it was that she wasn't what Vaughn was looking for.  Vaughn was like Ashley, he said he was into women who looked like Alicia Keys and Beyonce; if those experts had been smart they would have realized he meant lighter skinned women. Monet wanted marriage with Vaughn but he wasn't into her.  And my point is that courtship means nothing when one party is just NOT invested.

 

See, I was reticent like Ashley, too, and dismissed by guys as an "Ice Queen." The truth was, their pushy, whiny approach was just like David's and it was a huge turnoff. They guy who knew what to do - even as a college student - was an Alpha-type who knew how to take his time. Let me think it was my idea. I'm still with him and never want to leave, and it's been a long time.

 

 

But it sounds like you were attracted to the man you're with now, and no offense but that sounds like a mind game.  I mean if you like someone, you like them.  Part of the issue is the double standard; if a woman is attracted to a guy and wants to sleep with him, she's seen as "loose" and "easy."  So she's forced to put the man through all these bullshit games because she doesn't want him to think she's cheap.  Too bad people don't get that life's too short for bullshit games.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Neurochick

[rab01]

If that's the case, then it's infuriating that we never got to see that on the show. Unless she only did it when the cameras were not there. But, if that's what happened, then David is a lying liar for telling his friends he got no kisses.

It may just be a timing thing. They may have started kissing goodnight at week 5 or 6. Or it could be a context issue; that his friends meant something other than a "good night and go away" kiss.

[JapMo]

I guess I'm missing something, o'kerry, but I don't see all this whining and complaining that you claim David is doing constantly.  I think at the wedding, on the wedding night, on the honeymoon, and through most of their time together he has been more than accommodating to her touch-me-not behavior.  But above everything else, I and many posters feel something happened either right before or right after the wedding with Ashley and the producers that made her unwilling to even try.  It could be that she took one look at David at the altar and said "no way" and the show pushed, prodded and promised that everything would work out but soon,probably during the honeymoon, she felt she'd been tricked.  I think her real anger is with the show, and while she's not attracted to David, he's caught in the middle because she won't capitulate and she and the show are at an impass.

[Neurochick]

I guess I'm missing something, o'kerry, but I don't see all this whining and complaining that you claim David is doing constantly.  I think at the wedding, on the wedding night, on the honeymoon, and through most of their time together he has been more than accommodating to her touch-me-not behavior.  But above everything else, I and many posters feel something happened either right before or right after the wedding with Ashley and the producers that made her unwilling to even try.  It could be that she took one look at David at the altar and said "no way" and the show pushed, prodded and promised that everything would work out but soon,probably during the honeymoon, she felt she'd been tricked.  I think her real anger is with the show, and while she's not attracted to David, he's caught in the middle because she won't capitulate and she and the show are at an impass.

 

I agree with this.  I think Ashley took one look at David and thought, "nope."  To her that was that, no compromise, nothing.  Maybe she told the show the type of man she's normally attracted to and they gave her the exact opposite.  

 

My issue with the common definition of courtship and wooing is that there is a goal to it, the goal is marriage, relationship or sex.  If Ashley is dead set against either, then David has not chance, no matter what he does, she will not respond.  So all the talk of courtship and let Ashley have her space and just hold her hand and let her respond won't work, because she's just not attracted to him, end of story. 

 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Neurochick

[izabella]

Why didn't they ask the couples what happened with the fish bowl conversations?  I was waiting for David to say that Ashley shut down all discussion - THAT is something the experts need to hear about.

 

Ashley may need time to warm up to people, but there is no "getting to know you" if she won't actually TALK and tell David something, anything about herself.  She is not interested and has shut this whole thing down, yet the experts are still going on about how David is supposed to break down barriers like he is a psychiatrist or something. 

[ctbabe]

And how do we know the friend was telling the truth?

If that's the case, then it's infuriating that we never got to see that on the show. Unless she only did it when the cameras were not there. But, if that's what happened, then David is a lying liar for telling his friends he got no kisses.

I think they were goodnight pecks not kisses.I could be wrong though

[suzeecat]

Watching Neil's talking heads, it would appear that from the neck down he is built like an 8 year old.  I wish he would bulk up his shoulders a bit (or a lot) - I think it would enhance his masculinity a great deal.  I know this is superficial, but, well, yeah, it is.

[Waterlilly]

I noticed that even though Ashley objected to a large gathering of David's friends because she wasn't comfortable with that and isn't comfortable with sexy fishbowl questions or David touching her, she had no problems wearing those short ass shorts in front of his friends or Dr.C. not that they were that bad but they didn't go with what she tries to project. Lastly, I Bet she wouldn't wait two months to jump David's friend Marc's bones. Sorry, but she may be a great girl IRL but we don't see that. I mean I can be anti social and I have a huge comfort zone but, after three weeks I believe I could communicate that I need you to back up. I realize that all we see is what is edited, but even with Jamie and Davina we saw some personality and emotions. Ashley frustrates me and I would probably not try very hard to even form a friendship with her.

[henrysmom]

 

My issue with the common definition of courtship and wooing is that there is a goal to it, the goal is marriage, relationship or sex.  If Ashley is dead set against either, then David has not chance, no matter what he does, she will not respond.  So all the talk of courtship and let Ashley have her space and just hold her hand and let her respond won't work, because she's just not attracted to him, end of story.

 

And really, if Ashley encouraged David in any way, even with handholding or a few hugs, it would just be cruel.  She is clearly not into him and is just waiting out the six weeks so this can end and she can go back to school.  I think once David accepts that, he can move on too.  If he did get the occasional kiss or gesture of affection, it would just keep his hopes up and that wouldn't be a fair thing for Ashley to do.

Edited January 21, 2016 by henrysmom

[Waterlilly]

If David is faking "nice guy" and Ash is uncomfortable with him, why doesn't she call him on it like Davina did with fifty shades of Sean? What's the worst that could happen, we won't like her? Maybe she did with Dr. C. And it was cut out. I don't think so though.

[seasick]

.

The reason *I* commented on Ashley's looks (read: moustache) is because *she* is concerned with David looks. She is basing her dislike of him on physical appearance. That opens her up to a critique of her own looks. Live by the sword, die by the sword. 

I would agree to fair is fair,  but truthfully, Pityfree,  Ashley has never picked apart David's features, flaws, body parts etc. She has simply said she is not attracted to him, and later admits she has a very narrow view of what she finds attractive.  In fact I haven't heard Ashley criticizing David at all (except saying that he didn't have her back in fishbowl) or blaming him for her feelings like Sam does.. 

 

Now don't get me wrong she throws a deep freeze.   And my God that 'death glare' she gave him when talking with Dr. C !!  

 

But she's entitled to her feelings despite the fact that she signed up for a one in a million chance that she would get an attractive (to her) mate.  A person's attraction is not determined by where THEY are on the beauty scale.  It just is or isn't.. It's a shame for her but not really arguable. .  

 

I REALLY take issue with the experts on this. They knew how impossibly closed-minded she is.and what a long-shot this was.  They used David as a Lab-Rat strictly to see if they could get Ashley to open up, with absolutely NO consideration for David  who did want a match and wanted to be married.  This wasn't a "match" it was an 'experiment".  A disaster for both their "specimens" ..   

[ClareWalks]

Watching Neil's talking heads, it would appear that from the neck down he is built like an 8 year old.  I wish he would bulk up his shoulders a bit (or a lot) - I think it would enhance his masculinity a great deal.  I know this is superficial, but, well, yeah, it is.

 

I don't agree, but then again there isn't much you can do if you have a narrow frame. You can't just pack muscle onto muscle onto muscle. Also he is built like a runner, which is appropriate because he is one.

[okerry]

But courtship doesn't work if one party is Ashley, who's like, "no fucking way" when it comes to David.  

 

The problem with Monet wasn't the sex, it was that she wasn't what Vaughn was looking for.  Vaughn was like Ashley, he said he was into women who looked like Alicia Keys and Beyonce; if those experts had been smart they would have realized he meant lighter skinned women. Monet wanted marriage with Vaughn but he wasn't into her.  And my point is that courtship means nothing when one party is just NOT invested.

 

 

But it sounds like you were attracted to the man you're with now, and no offense but that sounds like a mind game.  I mean if you like someone, you like them.  Part of the issue is the double standard; if a woman is attracted to a guy and wants to sleep with him, she's seen as "loose" and "easy."  So she's forced to put the man through all these bullshit games because she doesn't want him to think she's cheap.  Too bad people don't get that life's too short for bullshit games.

It wasn't a mind game at all. I liked him, just wasn't sure I wanted to get serious - sleep with him. His very patient and encouraging approach changed my mind about that. Let me know he cared about me as a person, not solely as a sex partner. It makes me sad to think that my holding back out of genuine uncertainty, but then being happy when he stepped up, would be seen as a "mind game." It's anything but.

[Vinyasa]

I think Ashley took one look at David and thought, "nope."  To her that was that, no compromise, nothing.  Maybe she told the show the type of man she's normally attracted to and they gave her the exact opposite.

 

She decided at first sight this was never gonna happen. But I swear she also said she told the experts looks didn’t matter.

After she didn’t see Brad Pitt at the altar it was done!

[henrysmom]

I thought she told the experts that she always dating guys for their looks, and that wasn't working out for her, so she was up to trying something different.  Is that how others remember it?

[CaribQ]

High five to whoever pointed out that Sam and Sammie had a bong when Neil came back to apologize for calling Sam fake. Sam's behavior makes a lot more sense if we know she's a weed head. The need to be at HER house (she probably didn't want to smoke in the rental place or at Neil's), the constant wax melts to freshen the room, saying she had to go to Sammie's room (her sanctuary - where the camera can't catch her smoking), her bloodshot eyes, her jittery demeanor, her irritablenes (I know that's not all weed smoking. Maybe she's ADD and self-medicating), her weird attachment to Sammie who's her smoke buddy.

Also, the stuff about Sam and Neil's ex. Ohh, I remember that from the wedding. Sam claims that she can't be fake but when Neil introduced his ex at the wedding, Sam put on the kindest sweetest demeanor she has ever used and told the ex they would be friends and would spend a lot of time together. I could totally tell that was code for: I want to get you ex as close as possible so I can stab you in the eye with a fork. And Sam started to turn on Neil right after that. I can't believe Sam is STILL whining about his ex. At least she is smart enough to admit that her jealousy of the ex makes her realize she has feelings for Neil. I'm still Team Ex though. How bad could she be compared to Sam?

I'll join in on the courtship discussion. I think that what Ashley is asking for is the removal of courtship. Courtship has an end result, a reward. What Ashley is asking for is a friendship with no expectations, at least for now. To her credit, she did seem to realize that asking for that would be unfair and possibly cruel to David who she said complains to her that he's not getting any chance for romance. Although her tears were self-serving and kind of "poor me," she did seem to feel guilt for how things were going with David. As a woman, you are just expected to show appreciation for a kind and loving man by being willing to be pawed by him period. If you don't, people call you frigid or unappreciative. This was the first time I kind of thought that Ashley must realize how bad she comes off to the audience.

The whole admittance of non-attraction scene was sooo complicated. Dr. C and Ashley could have gotten that out in 2 sentences. "I am not attracted to you. I would prefer if you not touch me at all for right now." But the way they left it, David was like, " ???? I am surmising that Ashley doesn't really find me attractive?" Dr. C and Ashley, "(((crickets)))" If they wanted to put the man out of his misery, just. say. it. That's why I felt bad when Ashley started crying and David reached over to comfort her, she looked around like, "Did he not just hear what I said?" Yes, he heard you, but you were about as clear as mud. Finally Dr. C got blunt and said touching was off the table.

My feeling is that David is a "nice" guy. Nice guys are kind and giving to women, but don't really see them as people. This is why David is able to pretty much carry on the whole relationship with Ashley without her reciprocating. She doesn't want to hold hands? David smiles and says she's a great wife. She doesn't want to answer intimacy questions? David reasons that he's falling in love with her. He's not actually paying attention to Ashley the person at all. He's having a relationship with himself. She could light herself on fire and run around the neighborhood naked and he would say he could see her as the mother of his kids. Now the only way to anger a "nice" guy is to outright reject them. This makes them angry because they feel like they deserve the woman because they earned her by being nice. We'll see how David responds. From the preview it does not look good. He knows that he's been sent to the friend zone for now and really, who would want to be friends with Ashley? But this is good for him. He needs to figure out if he likes her personality. Non-spoiler prediction: The answer is nooooo.

I logged in just to give you a slow handclap regarding your analogy of a 'nice guy'.  She is an object.  By skipping the dating/courting stage, he doesn't have to get to know the actual person. David's needs are first in his mind. I sensed that somewhere during the honeymoon but thought I was being to sensitive.Human instincts are nothing to sneeze at.  Maybe deep down Ashley senses that and feels smothered. Not to excuse her snotty behavior though.  But I have been with a 'nice guy'.  It usually means you are an object of their control issues.

[Jack Sampson]

I thought she told the experts that she always dating guys for their looks, and that wasn't working out for her, so she was up to trying something different.  Is that how others remember it?

Yes. She told every lie possible to get on the show for...reasons.

[Lola16]

At this point, David would settle for "a wife that doesn't cringe and recoil if I try to comfort her when she's crying." 

Doubt it.  David would be happy with that for about 30 seconds.  Then he'd go in for a sloppy St Bernard kiss.  The man is anything but smooth.

 

During the wedding, Ashley seemed to warm up to David when he didn't kiss her as the guests were clanking on the glasses.  You could see the relief and then appreciation in her eyes and manner.  As another posted mentioned, as soon as she starts to thaw, David literally pounces.  He's a clumsy oaf.  He makes quick aggressive moves.  She is not attracted to him.   To me, it seems like she's wary of him.  Like they discuss things, agree to no contact, let her go at her pace and then he pounces.  Picking her up and throwing her down on the bed and he tries to get on top of her?  Fans of his will say that's playful.  At best, it's misguided.  Does Ashley seem like she wants any intimacy initiated on camera?  No.  David doesn't care.

 

Ashley met his friends at the wedding. 2 come over, both talk to her, both hug her and she responds with upper arm contact only (no full body hugs).  She wears short shorts.  Well, that's what was in the stores last year and she wears them around everyone, not just his thinner more in shape more attractive friends.  What do his friends say about her?  That she's attractive and good for David for getting a good looking wife.  Shows you what they value.  David talks about her looks.  Yet Ashley is the shallow one because doughy David doesn't rock her boat.

 

This is a 6 week show.  David should start sleeping around because Ashley hasn't put out at 3 weeks?  Then he's not ready for marriage either.  I get that they all signed up for this.  Why?  Money?  Fame?  Boredom?  Dunno.  But they all did and some aren't putting much effort into it.  2 seem like huge fakes to me.  I do think they could suck it up for the 6 weeks and all be polite with each other.  The fact that Sam can't manage that -- means she ain't ready for anything.  Neil can't handle rejection or someone who acts like she's still in JR High. He needs to work on that and use this time to learn to communicate and not snark back. David isn't good at dating?  No shit.  He wants to sit in bed with a wife that his friends find pretty, eat Dominos (ugh), drink beer with his friends, have some one to fight his fights with him and be ready to get down when he is.  He ain't ready either.

[Kareem]

Jaclyn wanted no part of Basement Ryan initially, but she was civil, friendly and open-minded. Ashley can manage none of these things yet yammers that she doesn't think he's a bad guy. She's entitled to her opinion re sparks v. no sparks with him, but she loses points for being icy, difficult and indifferent from the jump, from the wedding on. David isn't perfect but he started out with patience, which was more effort than she ever put into it. Mommy and step-daddy defending what we've seen is equally disturbing. Her mother initially said she doesn't have much fun in life. Geez, wonder why... Will be interesting to learn the true story of these two.