S02.E10: Palindrome

[SoCal Mema]

Whoops! Well that clears that up. Since no one else in this thread mentioned a particular one, I thought Alcatraz was the only one. But, now that you mention it, I have heard of the other one.

 

While I guess the answer would be clear if the kid was shown with one or no shoes, I didn't notice it. I guess it could have been his shoe, after all. So, I guess that would sort of make the porch decorations ironic. Kinda.

I believe the prison referred to was not Alcatraz, but Pelican Hill.

[cpcathy]

Unless Peggy did not know Alcatraz had closed, that's my guess and it seems likely.

[ChipBach]

Unless Peggy did not know Alcatraz had closed, that's my guess and it seems likely.

 

I think Alcatraz had been closed for long period of time before 1979.  I believe the native american occupation of Alcatraz took place between 1969 to 1971.  I don't think Peggy was badass enough to be sentenced to Pelican Bay Prison.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelican_Bay_State_Prison

[Stratego]

I think Alcatraz had been closed for long period of time before 1979.  I believe the native american occupation of Alcatraz took place between 1969 to 1971.  I don't think Peggy was badass enough to be sentenced to Pelican Bay Prison.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelican_Bay_State_Prison

Pelican bay didn't exist in 1979--so, no that's wrong.  I think it's just another Peggy "California Dreamin' fantasy"--a prison with ocean views--and for the inmates!  The only prison I know of with ocean views for prisoners is in Monaco.

[ChipBach]

Pelican bay didn't exist in 1979--so, no that's wrong.  I think it's just another Peggy "California Dreamin' fantasy"--a prison with ocean views--and for the inmates!  The only prison I know of with ocean views for prisoners is in Monaco.

 

If she was found competent I doubt she'd serve more than five years for manslaughter.  She was forced to participate in what happened to be a botched police sting and lost her husband in the process.

[Nutjob]

 

She was forced to participate in what happened to be a botched police sting and lost her husband in the process.

She wasn't forced--in fact, Lou told her and Ed exactly how to get out of the sting, and she dismissed him immediately and went along with it. IMO, she considered it another part of the "adventure." 

[becauseIsaidso]

Having been born in January of 1950, I was 29 in 1979 and I became acquainted with three distinct types of men...there were the ones like  my ex (operative word being 'ex') who blamed 'goddam wimmin's lib' for EVERYTHING that was wrong in their narrow little worldview...Then there were the men who were 'HELL YES!!!!! You want your part of all this responsibility, then HELL YES, let's share.'..and then there were the clueless ones...the ones who (like all the rest us of, actually) grew up in Leave It To Beaver, Father Knows Best, Happy Days post WWII America and the established gender roles therein and had NO idea there was any segment of the population (women, blacks, hispanics, you name it) who weren't totally thrilled with the American Dream as it was then....These clueless guys struggled to reconcile what they were hearing from women, from other racial/ethnic groups, with the America they had grown up in, the one they had been led to believe would always be the same...and sometimes they got it, sometimes they stumbled, but the thing I loved about them the MOST was that they TRIED...that is how I see Lou...

 

...from what I have seen in this season, I view Lou as a man who is working within that transition, who does recognize his wife's intelligence and capabilities, even if he has no clue what to do with them....and I have seen Lou as a cop, as a guy who (no doubt) enlisted to serve (rather than wait for the draft/lottery to get him or to join those running to Canada to avoid the draft, or go the more dubious (though the morally correct but emotionally daunting route of trying to prove they really were 'Conscientiously Objectors')...so when I saw Lou in the prowler with Peggy at their last scene, I saw a cop, a man who believed in the law and in the responsibility to either follow that law, or accept the consequences of not doing so...I did not see overt sexism, although in 1979 America, there was almost certainly an ingrained sort of sexism at play..

 

I have never liked Peggy....from the start she has seemed to me to be a narcissistic, arrogant POS who will do whatever it takes (be it brains or her cute, blonde appearance to succeed in the pursuit of her own agenda - no matter what the cost....I can see her panic and confusion when she first struck Rye - which, (having watched the first episode again today) I am having a little trouble with as there seems to be a LOT of time between Rye standing in the middle of the road, first watching the 'UFO', then the oncoming headlights, but also that surely she MUST have seen him - I wonder what else her attention could have been on....but...nonetheless....from that point on she behaved in what I can only describe as 'depraved indifference' (a term I have heard used in a variety of criminal court cases), she told Ed she took the back roads home, and outlined how they could pass the whole thing off as a deer versus car accident, NEVER ONCE providing any details as to exactly HOW Rye's remains were to be disposed of...she left that nasty little detail up to poor, stupid Ed. Nor did she ever exhibit ANY CONCERN WHATEVER that she had caused, however unintentionally, such physical suffering in a fellow human.
 

All in all, I really liked this season - especially Betsy's little journey into what the future would bring...I loved the detail of Lou clearly limping at Molly's High School graduation photo scene, I loved the family dinner with Molly and Gus and Lou and the two kids and am very much looking forward to what Fargo will bring to my screen next season. In the mean time, I plan to rewatch every episode as often as I can.

[Hobo.PassingThru]

 

I am having a little trouble with as there seems to be a LOT of time between Rye standing in the middle of the road, first watching the 'UFO', then the oncoming headlights, but also that surely she MUST have seen him - I wonder what else her attention could have been on....

Now that you mention it, of course!

 

Yesterday, I brought up how she must have seen Rye and maybe even intentionally hit him. But, you reminded me that she could have been distracted by the UFO. Duh.

 

If she was distracted by that it would explain why she was so non-chalant about seeing a second one at the motel, when Ed was entranced by it.

 

Ha! Maybe if it had been mentioned or shown that she definitely saw it, why she hit Rye would have been clearer.

 

Thanks!

[Catherinewriter]

As much as this show is about skewed realism, I really like, so much, the family scenes that are very realistic. Good emotional connections among Wilson, Danson, Milioti (sp?) etc.

 

Will miss, you., Fargo. Must we wait another year, or is this show a half-year/half-year series?

 

Ed should have lived - he was so much less destructive than Peggy.

 

 

[Hobo.PassingThru]

 

Ed should have lived - he was so much less destructive than Peggy.

I agree with the first part but he did kill two people. While I guess both instances were self-defense, he did do it.

 

On further consideration, it was kill or be killed. There were at least four characters who served in a war.

Given what the series covered and how it was covered, did the final episode seal any sort of Vietnam metaphor, or a war metaphor in general? There are parts of the series which outright has a war between KC and the crime family.

 

Also, unrelated, someone previously asked how the motel room Mike and those Kitchen brothers stayed in must have been blood stained. And, the motel would have known something was amiss. Wasn't there a news paper headline which mentioned something about that motel, Milligan specifically, or KC mafia in relation to that motel, specifically?

Edited December 18, 2015 by Hobo.PassingThru

[ChipBach]

I agree with the first part but he did kill two people. While I guess both instances were self-defense, he did do it.

 

On further consideration, it was kill or be killed. There were at least four characters who served in a war.

Given what the series covered and how it was covered, did the final episode seal any sort of Vietnam metaphor, or a war metaphor in general? There are parts of the series which outright has a war between KC and the crime family.

 

Also, unrelated, someone previously asked how the motel room Mike and those Kitchen brothers stayed in must have been blood stained. And, the motel would have known something was amiss. Wasn't there a news paper headline which mentioned something about that motel, Milligan specifically, or KC mafia in relation to that motel, specifically?

 

That was probably the only part of this series I didn't like; the Mike Milligan headline.  If the press knows where you are, must be tough to 1) kill people in your room, and 2) why would the undertaker choose to whack Mike in a place that was obviously being watched by the media?  Seemed a bit clumsy.  I guess that was the only way they could figure how to connect Ed to Mike...  There had to be a better way.

[AuntiePam]

Will miss, you., Fargo. Must we wait another year, or is this show a half-year/half-year series?

 

 

Spring 2017, so a little over a year.  [sad face]

[Stratego]

That was probably the only part of this series I didn't like; the Mike Milligan headline.  If the press knows where you are, must be tough to 1) kill people in your room, and 2) why would the undertaker choose to whack Mike in a place that was obviously being watched by the media?  Seemed a bit clumsy.  I guess that was the only way they could figure how to connect Ed to Mike...  There had to be a better way.

I doubt the Undertaker was sent to kill Mike.  First, if that was KC's intention they certainly wouldn't tell Mike that the Undertaker was coming.  Second, since the Undertaker is purportedly KC's #1 mechanic, he would have planned an ambush rather than casually walking in announced (and without guns drawn!).  i believe this was like one baseball pitcher replacing another.

[AuntiePam]

Stratego, good point.  If Mike understood it this way -- and he should have -- why did he kill the Undertaker?  You don't think Mike felt physically threatened? 

[shapeshifter]

There were at least four characters who served in a war.

Given what the series covered and how it was covered, did the final episode seal any sort of Vietnam metaphor, or a war metaphor in general? There are parts of the series which outright has a war between KC and the crime family.

Ooo, good point. I missed the parallel between the Vietnam War spoken of in the show and the mob war portrayed in the show. For one thing, if we look just at geography, Mike and his lot came up from the south to invade the north. So does that mean the show's war is a mirror image of Vietnam? Or maybe it's still the early part of the war? Regardless, both had a North/South thing going on. And then after Vietnam was all over, with the Communists/VC "winning," didn't they just all become Capitalists? Like Mike in his cubicle?

This show could be the basis of a semester long, multi-disciplinary college course. Students could be given a list of suggested topics to write on or choose another.

Vietnam symbolism, metaphors, and parallels could be one, but also, I'd love to see a comparison of Peggy with Betty from the film Nurse Betty. Betty didn't kill anyone, and the audience had a chance to see what caused her psychosis, and, most importantly, she was "cured," which made mental illness seem like a disease--albeit unrealistically portrayed. Peggy's was probably more realistic, but didn't elicit too much good will from the audience--which is also realistic of real life mental illness, especially for the criminally mentally ill.

Edited December 18, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Ottis]

i believe this was like one baseball pitcher replacing another.

Stratego, good point.  If Mike understood it this way -- and he should have -- why did he kill the Undertaker?  You don't think Mike felt physically threatened?

 

 

I think Mike was hell bent on moving up, and wasn't about to allow some over-the-hill replacement to stop that. His ambush was planned, so while he may have felt threatened, his decision was made before The Undertaker arrived and so it wasn't a physical threat. If he did whack The Undertaker because he wasn't accepting a replacement "pitcher," it makes his "reward" that much more devastating.

[Stratego]

Stratego, good point.  If Mike understood it this way -- and he should have -- why did he kill the Undertaker?  You don't think Mike felt physically threatened? 

Threatened?  I'm not sure what you mean.  I perceive it's like a contractor who was hired to do a job, but failed.  It is unlikely that the KC mob would ever "lease his services" again if Mike fails in this "Fargo job".

[AuntiePam]

Okay, I get'cha.  He killed the Undertaker for job security, not for his personal security. 

[shapeshifter]

Okay, I get'cha.  He killed the Undertaker for job security, not for his personal security. 

Or maybe both, depending upon mood, conversation, etc.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

I think Mike understood all-too well that the Undertaker was to take care of him after the mission was complete, and that the Undertaker was to take charge of the mission.  My conviction is that Mike knew darn well that the big boss was racist and I also think he inferred that he would be blamed for Bulo's death.  As we saw, Mike was, above all else, a survivor.  

[Mumbles]

 

Maybe I'm the only one who thought the finale was a let down. The series went out with a whimper. Mike's ending was amusing but made little sense. Hank's "communication pictures" didn't explain what was in the room. The meaning, or perhaps existence, of the UFO is unclear. Peggy is a despicable, self-centered nut.

 

I liked Betsy's vision, that was the best part of the episode. I also liked how the show eventually always showed us who died.

 

I'm kinda with you on this. I thought the Mike storyline was just a little on the nose. Reagan's coming and with him a new era - greed is seen as good, corporations are criminals. But it was a poignant contrast - earlier in the episode Mike was doling out punishments and rewards. After all that, he's been reduced to "About Schmidt."

 

And excuse me while I dodge all the boos and hisses, I did not like the Betsy Solverson character throughout the series. Just something martyr-y about her. And I did not like her line to Noreen (who I really liked as a character - she has intellectual curiosity) about Camus not being a mother with a kid - I hate it when anyone just hijacks  a conversation or cuts down an argument with "as a mom..." stuff.  I'm a monster for disliking a young mother with cancer, but sue me. (It also doesn't help that I'm not wild about that actor.)

 

And the UFO stuff still kind of annoys me.

 

I liked last season better because Malvo (and Billy Bob) was so evilly charismatic, Molly was so easy to root for, and Martin Freeman so fantastic, going from pitiable to despicable so naturally.

 

BUT I still really like this season, grousing aside. It took a little longer to get in but the middle-to-last episodes were fantastic.

[AuntiePam]

And excuse me while I dodge all the boos and hisses, I did not like the Betsy Solverson character throughout the series. Just something martyr-y about her. And I did not like her line to Noreen (who I really liked as a character - she has intellectual curiosity) about Camus not being a mother with a kid - I hate it when anyone just hijacks  a conversation or cuts down an argument with "as a mom..." stuff.  I'm a monster for disliking a young mother with cancer, but sue me. (It also doesn't help that I'm not wild about that actor.)

 

No boos or hisses from me, but a rationalization: Do you think her comment to Noreen could be seen as Molly finally showing a little bit of anger about her cancer?  She's dying, and here's this teenager, her whole life ahead of her, spouting nihilistic philosophy.  Easy for you to say!

 

I kept waiting for Molly to lose patience with someone, not be so freaking stoic, maybe be a little bit selfish, but she was Minnesota Nice all through.  For her to criticize Noreen's comments was her version of snapping.

 

The only other time she "slipped" was in the doctor's office, when she was slightly snarky with the doctor. 

 

I totally agree with you about people who play the Parent Card, but in this instance, I think it was justified.

[Pathetica]

San Quentin State Prison overlooks San Francisco Bay.

[Milburn Stone]

What was the evidence that the reconfigured Hanzee is Malvo? I think it's a cool idea, and my hat's off to anyone who was able to get this, if the show indeed contained an indication that it is so. I just want to know what I missed, because I didn't pick up on it. 

 

Also, as to whether the dialogue between Lou and Peggy in the car was sexist: Maybe, but if so, it was the believable unconscious sexism of two people in the Midwest of 1979, not a sexist agenda being perpetrated by Noah Hawley. If anything, it showed how well he understands and feels for his characters, their time, and their place. It's not a bug, it's a feature.

[ToastnBacon]

What was the evidence that the reconfigured Hanzee is Malvo? I think it's a cool idea, and my hat's off to anyone who was able to get this, if the show indeed contained an indication that it is so. I just want to know what I missed, because I didn't pick up on it. 

I didn't pick up on anything either. Other than the wolf-like way they were portraying him stalking about.

Then there was his new identity of Mr. Tripoli, and that seems to run contrary to Malvo.

 

Also, as to whether the dialogue between Lou and Peggy in the car was sexist: Maybe, but if so, it was the believable unconscious sexism of two people in the Midwest of 1979, not a sexist agenda being perpetrated by Noah Hawley. If anything, it showed how well he understands and feels for his characters, their time, and their place. It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Exactly.

I think that rant upthread against Noah Hawley was over-the-top and very misplaced.

Being hypersensitive to the point that you brand a writer a sexist for a mere portrayal of sexism doesn't seem healthy.

[WearyTraveler]

Hanzee is not Malvo.  He get got a new Social Security card toward the end of the episode that had Trippoli for a last name.

 

Trippoli was a mob boss that Malvo killed in Season 1.

[Dev F]

I didn't pick up on anything either. Other than the wolf-like way they were portraying him stalking about.

Then there was his new identity of Mr. Tripoli, and that seems to run contrary to Malvo.

 

Yep, yep. Though I think it makes sense that Lou might've thought Malvo might be Hanzee when he met him at the end of season 1 -- hence his questions about whether he'd ever been to Sioux Falls. Perhaps Lou had followed the FBI hunt over the years and knew that Hanzee was never apprehended, and maybe there were even some whispers that he'd undergone plastic surgery to change his appearance. So when a similarly creepy older guy shows up sniffing around another case involving the Fargo mafia, Lou might have reason to wonder if it's his fugitive.

 

It's also significant, I think, that it turns out not to be him -- that the vicious prime mover in one memorable crime would turn out to be just a doomed redshirt in the next one. Malvo likes to pretend that he's some immortal force of ancient evil -- "Haven't had a piece of pie like that since the Garden of Eden," he tells Lou -- but in reality it's only the evil that's immortal; he's just the latest dude to revel in it for a while before collapsing and falling into the sea.

[kieyra]

My vague take on the sexism scene:

They wrote a little soliloquy for Peggy that very much described the desperation of being a modern woman (even now) and trying to do "everything", and then Kirsten Dunst acted the hell out of it, so much so that some of us who have experienced that felt it in the gut and believed it as part of her actions. After all, everyone cheered when she got to beat up misogynistic Dodd, right?

But then we were swiftly told those feelings were stupid.

After all, murdering mobsters decided to get more murdery because of her.

They chose to write the dialogue, they chose to direct Kirsten Dunst that way. I'm not sure what to make of the reasons for those choices, but yes, it left me feeling annoyed. They could have had her find another way to make excuses for her feelings of mediocrity, or perhaps Dunst could have used the slightly dopey-er set of acting tools she used when talking about being actualized. Because that speech didn't feel like delusion to me, and I doubt anyone here would question the racism experienced by Mike and Hanzee as being part of the makeup of their choices.

All this said, I'm a person who hasn't been super enchanted by this franchise, and had to FF through a lot of the speechifying in the final few episodes, so perhaps I am suffering from confirmation bias.

Edited December 20, 2015 by kieyra

[Conan Troutman]

Even a week or so after the fact... I still love that family dinner scene. Everybody should have a Ted Danson as their grandfather.

[ToastnBacon]

My vague take on the sexism scene:

They wrote a little soliloquy for Peggy that very much described the desperation of being a modern woman (even now) and trying to do "everything", and then Kirsten Dunst acted the hell out of it, so much so that some of us who have experienced that felt it in the gut and believed it as part of her actions. After all, everyone cheered when she got to beat up misogynistic Dodd, right?

But then we were swiftly told those feelings were stupid.

After all, murdering mobsters decided to get more murdery because of her.

They chose to write the dialogue, they chose to direct Kirsten Dunst that way. I'm not sure what to make of the reasons for those choices, but yes, it left me feeling annoyed. They could have had her find another way to make excuses for her feelings of mediocrity, or perhaps Dunst could have used the slightly dopey-er set of acting tools she used when talking about being actualized. Because that speech didn't feel like delusion to me, and I doubt anyone here would question the racism experienced by Mike and Hanzee as being part of the makeup of their choices.

All this said, I'm a person who hasn't been super enchanted by this franchise, and had to FF through a lot of the speechifying in the final few episodes, so perhaps I am suffering from confirmation bias.

How were we told that Peggy feeling societal pressures of "having it all" is stupid?

Lou was terse with her when he reminded her that "people died" but that was directed at her leaving the scene of an accident with a person lodged in her windshield.

Her feelings about being torn between family and career are valid, but they are certainly not an excuse to leave the scene of an accident with a person stuck in your windshield.

Or are you merely objecting that they portrayed a female character in a negative way?

I'm having trouble grasping the point of your post.

Edited December 20, 2015 by ToastnBacon

[Inquisitionist]

I'm in a quandary about Lou's Viet Nam timing.  He was there for the fall of Saigon, which occurred in the spring of 1975, and he'd previously mentioned an incident that happened on a river patrol in 1974.  The season is set in 1979 and Molly is referred to in Ep. 2-1 as being 6 years old, which would make her birth year 1973.  Lou is played by 40something Patrick Wilson, but maybe is supposed to be more like 34-ish.  Would Lou have gone to Viet Nam for the first time in 1972, post-Molly's-conception, when he was already married and in his late 20s?  Did he go earlier but then come home on leave to marry Betsy?  The timing doesn't make sense to me, even though I loved the story about the family in the Chinook.

 

After rewatching Ep. 2-3, The Myth of Sisyphus, last night, I have a bit more clarity.  Lou said he did two tours in Viet Nam with the Navy.  So it is plausible that he was home between tours at the time Molly was conceived.  :-)

Edited December 20, 2015 by Inquisitionist

[ChipBach]

How were we told that Peggy feeling societal pressures of "having it all" is stupid?

Lou was terse with her when he reminded her that "people died" but that was directed at her leaving the scene of an accident with a person lodged in her windshield.

Her feelings about being torn between family and career are valid, but they are certainly not an excuse to leave the scene of an accident with a person stuck in your windshield.

Or are you merely objecting that they portrayed a female character in a negative way?

I'm having trouble grasping the point of your post.

 

I don't recall thinking Peggy's monologue was stupid - I did think it was given at an inappropriate time.  Lou has just spent three days under a tremendous amount of pressure, remember - he went from a face down with KC killers, right to the lynch mob at the police station, discovering a crime scene, into a total blood bath that ended with his ultimate failure to protect the people he tried to protect.  And oh yeah, the father-in-law he loves has been critically injured and the love of his life is dyin of cancer.

 

He just might be a bit overwhelmed to demonstrate the proper empathy at that exact moment from a woman who earlier blamed him for the entire deal as he was trying to give her protection/advice that she ignored...  Honestly, if they did write him quoting Gloria Steinem, I would have been a bit dubious.

[Cosmocrush]

... but Lou's interminable anecdote about the dude trying to land the fucking Chinook--although I hoped the reference to the "Chinook" was some sort of Alberta shoutout--and half-baked musings about the "burden" and "privilege" of, well, male privilege, was also egregious, as well as being sexist. (It also seemed that even though he was talking about a Vietnamese man trying to save his family, Lou when talking about the "rock" was talking about white male privilege, and it's no coincidence that he identified with Ed in this respect, another white male: I'm sure Hanzee and Mike, two previously marginalized POC treated like subhuman garbage unworthy of anything other than lackey status, would have been completely sympathetic towards Lou's discussion of the "burden" of being powerful because of the responsibility it entails.)

 

Moreover, none of it was interesting, witty, or profound. Some of it (Lou's monologue) was fucking offensive. If you're going to subject your audience to long-winded speeches, there had damn better be something worthwhile for making them suffer through it. You've got to be interesting enough, profound enough, or witty enough. It was 0 for 3 in this episode, over and over and over again.

I didn't find it offensive or long-winded.  Lou told an amazing story that happens to actually be a true story.   I think he made the point - not about "male privledge" but about what he's seen men do to save their families. 

 

There's an excellent documentary, I think it's called "Last Days of Vietnam" that shows the fall of Saigon. There is footage of the helicopter/chinook rescues which are exactly as Lou described.

Loved the finale, especially the happy, for now, Solverson family.

Yes!  I recognized the Lou's story as one of the amazing true stories shown in Rory Kennedy's riveting documentary.   Lou described it perfectly, putting his character on the USS Kirk, something I can totally see our Lou Solverson doing.  

 

It was completely out of a Mission Impossible movie only actual life and death. 

 

Here's the story of the USS Kirk, including the dropping of babies into the crew's arms:  http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129484369

 

And here is the story of Ba Van Nguyen as shown on Last Day's of Vietnam and told by Lou on Palindrome:   A father goes 'badass' to save his family

Edited December 23, 2015 by Cosmocrush

[AuntiePam]

I'm looking forward to the DVD, with commentary.  I'm curious about the choice to show Lou and Molly in the future, using the actors who played them in S1.  It didn't work for me.  Patrick Wilson won't ever look like Keith Carradine, not even with 25 additional years on him.  If there had to be people in her vision, they could have been shown from behind, or with their faces kinda fuzzy.  Betsy speaking, telling us about the future she saw, was enough for me.

[shapeshifter]

What was the evidence that the reconfigured Hanzee is Malvo? I think it's a cool idea, and my hat's off to anyone who was able to get this, if the show indeed contained an indication that it is so. I just want to know what I missed, because I didn't pick up on it.

Hanzee is not Malvo.  He get got a new Social Security card toward the end of the episode that had Trippoli for a last name.

 

Trippoli was a mob boss that Malvo killed in Season 1.

I can't recall the way this played out, but is there any way Hanzee as Tripoli killed Malvo, and then took Malvo's identity and buried Tripoli?

[Inquisitionist]

I'm rewatching S2 now as my husband watches it for the first time.  It's holding up very well the second time through, and my husband is impressed and liking it more than S1.  On rewatch it is interesting to see certain images used early on that made an impact later.  For instance, in 2-4, there is a shot of Simone lying on her back on the bed after sex with Mike Milliigan in which her hair is fanned out around her head and she has a quasi-beatific look on her face.  This image is repeated when we see Simone for the last time in the finale. 

[Stratego]

I can't recall the way this played out, but is there any way Hanzee as Tripoli killed Malvo, and then took Malvo's identity and buried Tripoli?

The final clue provided that Hanzee became the future Fargo mob boss killed by Malvo was when Hanzee used the exact line about his targeting the KC mob that the Fargo boss used when he sent his two hired-guns (Wrench and ?) to kill Lester.  So, No, Hanzee did not become Malvo.

[cpcathy]

I made the attempt to watch on FX Now, but it has commercials! Ugh! I think I will wait for the DVD in all its commercial-free, HD glory! I hope there are extras!

[Cosmocrush]

The final clue provided that Hanzee became the future Fargo mob boss killed by Malvo was when Hanzee used the exact line about his targeting the KC mob that the Fargo boss used when he sent his two hired-guns (Wrench and ?) to kill Lester.  So, No, Hanzee did not become Malvo.

 

Right.  Hanzee became Tripoli and Malvo killed Tripoli.    So no chance that Hanzee becomes Malve, even though that would make more sense to me.  

[shapeshifter]

Right.  Hanzee became Tripoli and Malvo killed Tripoli.    So no chance that Hanzee becomes Malve, even though that would make more sense to me.  

If this were a book, it would be easy to retcon it so that it was the opposite.

It just seemed to me that if Hanzee had used plastic surgery to change his identity once, he might do it again.

But I believe plastic surgery in 1979 was not perfected for such purposes, so it might make even more sense that he would not want to do it again--at least not to try to look like someone else in particular--just maybe to look like a better version of his new self. (I refrained from saying "the best Tripoli he could be," heh.)

[WearyTraveler]

I can't recall the way this played out, but is there any way Hanzee as Tripoli killed Malvo, and then took Malvo's identity and buried Tripoli?

 

I don't think so.  Taking into account the events of S1 and S2, the chronology goes something like this:

 

1) Hanzee gets a SS card with the name Tripoli

2) Malvo shows up in S2

3) Malvo kills Tripoli

[AuntiePam]

Any thoughts on the plastic sheeting we saw in several episodes?  We saw it in the typewriter store, in the conference room at the Pearl where Floyd met with KC, again in a hallway at the Pearl, and then we saw pieces of it on a chainlink fence in the alley where Lou followed Ed and Peggy. 

 

I get why it was there but I don't know what it means.  It must mean something. 

[MrWhyt]

Any thoughts on the plastic sheeting we saw in several episodes?  We saw it in the typewriter store, in the conference room at the Pearl where Floyd met with KC, again in a hallway at the Pearl, and then we saw pieces of it on a chainlink fence in the alley where Lou followed Ed and Peggy. 

 

I get why it was there but I don't know what it means.  It must mean something. 

 

It means those sets were meant to be in various states of renovation/construction.

[John Potts]

Well I enjoyed it as a series. I was glad that - for the most part - the "good guys" made it out alive and that virtue was its own reward. The idiot cops didn't survive, but those that stood up and do their duty actually made it out with honour (including mustachioed cop, whose name I'm blanking on, who - finally! - earned his promotion there).

 

To wade into the choppy waters of discrimination (and I should fess up that I'm a middle class white male, so... make of this what you will): the lesson this episode teaches is not that blacks/Indians/women weren't discriminated against in 1979, it's that for all her talk of "Becoming Actualised" she never actually DID anything to change her status. It was implied that she was taking the pill to avoid getting pregnant, but she never TALKED to her husband about it (and given he was prepared to mince up a dead body she brought home, I think he might have understood her not wanting kids!). Unlike Mike (who saw his opportunity to get ahead AND TOOK IT) she liked to complain but when presented with the opportunity to flee she didn't take it (which would admitedly have left her husband in the shit). She's like somebody who wants to get fit so she joins a gym - but never actually gets any exercise.  Similarly, compare our Camus reading teen to Betsy Solverson: it's all very well saying life is a meaningless struggle, but that doesn't achieve anything - if there is no God (as I think Camus would claim) then the only meaning is what we make for ourselves, simply saying life's a joke achieves nothing.

 

Stratego I doubt the Undertaker was sent to kill Mike.  First, if that was KC's intention they certainly wouldn't tell Mike that the Undertaker was coming
 

But Mike may not have felt he could take that chance (be really embarassing to die going, "Oh, so you WERE sent to kill me - I wasn't sure!"). And now he's the living embodiement of the Peter's Principle (Workers rise to their level of incompetence). I would feel sorry or him if he wasn't a cold blooded killer.

 

islandgal140 Sounds like Hank invited emoji!! A true visionary.

Yet he dies before he sees his vision coming true. Don't know whether that's a good or a bad thing!

 

Eyes High Was the Gerhardt flag with the black eagle supposed to suggest that they were Nazis?

It's the German flag - has been (with minor variations) since 1870. In fact, one of the few periods when it WASN'T the flag was under the Nazis (who used the Black Swastika on red). Doesn't mean they're not Nazis, but if they were, there' be more Swastikas around, you'd imagine.

[Ohwell]

For all Peggy's talk about becoming actualized, I don't think she wanted to venture out all by herself.  That would have been too much hard work for her.  I think she envisioned Ed going to California with her and getting a steady job so she could attend seminars and do whatever else she wanted to do.  Ed would be the one to actually take care of her.  

[AuntiePam]

It means those sets were meant to be in various states of renovation/construction.

 

I get that -- that's the literal meaning -- but was there a metaphorical meaning?  Maybe the metaphor comes in at the end, the scraps on the fence in the alley.  Building and changing and everything building to that end .  . .  scraps, blowing in the wind?   

[Stratego]

I get that -- that's the literal meaning -- but was there a metaphorical meaning?  Maybe the metaphor comes in at the end, the scraps on the fence in the alley.  Building and changing and everything building to that end .  . .  scraps, blowing in the wind?   

It could be a symbol indicating "times are a changin' ".  But since they 'were operating on a "cable budget" (sorry I don't have the link with the interview of Hawley) it could be to hide the rest of the scene.  That typewriter business might have doubled as the butcher shop, and so on...

[MaryPatShelby]

So I originally read the Buffalo guy's question to Mike, "who are you, Otto's kid by the maid," as just generic racism.

 

I did too and didn't, at the time,  consider it a Very Important line.  Mostly because, who can't tell the difference between an African American and an Indian?

 

I also got tired of the speechifying.  The worst was the guy going on and on and on about where he got the name Tripoli.  I'm sure someday that information will become important, but I thought it was completely unnecessary.

Edited December 23, 2015 by MaryPatShelby

[seacliffsal]

I just rewatched the entire series (yesterday and today) and I got so much out of the rewatch. I thought it stood out more that Floyd was in way over her head; Hanzee gave her an 'out' in the final episode by suggesting that she stay home, but she got very harsh with him with her 'are you giving me order?' and then blaming him for not finding Dodd earlier. It also stood out to me that just an episode or two earlier Floyd went on about all the children sleeping upstairs,yet when Mike and the kitchen brother go into the Gerhard home there's nobody there except the cook. Any ideas where all of the other family members went?

It was interesting in the final episode to see the montage of all of the Gerhard family members who died, but I kind of wish they showed the 'innocents' who died as a result of all of these actions.

I really recommend doing a binge watch as the story really unfolds and connections are stronger. Overall, I really enjoyed the series I did get a little tired of all of the pontificating that certain characters did (especially the guy at the end giving Hanzee a new identity). Now I want to rewatch the first season to look for the story continuities.

[kieyra]

To wade into the choppy waters of discrimination (and I should fess up that I'm a middle class white male, so... make of this what you will): the lesson this episode teaches is not that blacks/Indians/women weren't discriminated against in 1979, it's that for all her talk of "Becoming Actualised" she never actually DID anything to change her status. It was implied that she was taking the pill to avoid getting pregnant, but she never TALKED to her husband about it (and given he was prepared to mince up a dead body she brought home, I think he might have understood her not wanting kids!). Unlike Mike (who saw his opportunity to get ahead AND TOOK IT) she liked to complain but when presented with the opportunity to flee she didn't take it (which would admitedly have left her husband in the shit). She's like somebody who wants to get fit so she joins a gym - but never actually gets any exercise. Similarly, compare our Camus reading teen to Betsy Solverson: it's all very well saying life is a meaningless struggle, but that doesn't achieve anything - if there is no God (as I think Camus would claim) then the only meaning is what we make for ourselves, simply saying life's a joke achieves nothing.

This will be my final post on the topic, but I'll just point out that all these character beats could have been achieved without the character's final "smackdown" coming during what seemed to be a heartfelt speech about the difficulties of being a modern woman. Again, the writers chose THAT particular sentence for her comeuppance.

If it had been Hanzee in the car and he'd been explaining how racism was part of the piece of the puzzle that had turned him into a stone cold killer, and he'd been dismissed the same way, people would react much differently. Ditto Mike. Why is that? Is it because being a murdering mobster in the Fargo 'verse is inherently cooler than being a flaky, complaining woman?