S03.E15: Wick'ed

[Tara Ariano]

A Los Angeles candle shop needs help creating a product with mass appeal to break into the market.

[Primetimer]

And other not-quite-burning (GEDDIT?!) questions from the Wick'ed Candles episode of The Profit.

Read the story

[Gregg247]

Mark is a pretty stubborn guy.  On the positive side, that's why he hasn't given up on the business over the past 5 years.  On the negative side, he refuses to listen to anyone who disagrees with him.  That's just the way he is, and I don't think Marcus' pseudo-psychological intervention is going to change that.  The guy is 35 years old and still wearing a nose ring; he ain't gonna change his life after a 5 minute counseling session with Marcus!

 

My experience with candles involves lighting the 2 that I have in my house every time the power goes out.  I had no idea that candles sold for so much money.  However, I would think that candles would be the most "commodity" product that there is.  In fact, I'll bet that candles were maybe the first item "mass produced" (relatively speaking) by ancient man.  Soap may be a close second.  It's got to be hard to differentiate yourself in that product class.

 

I didn't like Mark's new design for the candles, and while Marcus' suggestion of fading out the color helped, it still looked like a box of Kleenex to me.

 

That "kitting" thing that Marcus showed them was pretty amazing and, once again, showed why Marcus is MUCH more than just a large check and some TV cameras.  He really knows his stuff; he's going to make that couple (and himself) very, very rich.

[eddy]

We'll, I don't know about anyone getting rich off this deal.  There's nothing proprietary about the product(s).  Anyone can make scented candles as demonstrated by the minimal equipment in the start-up garage. They have to sell the candle for $7 so the distributor can sell it for $14 so the store can sell it for $28.  I thought the guy at the production facility was quoting close to $7 to make the candle.  I just don't see the potential for a commodity product like this in a high-competition market.

 

I saw this episode as one made for the TV audience as opposed to one made for TV + Marcus's empire.  But I did enjoy him giving a garage-based start-up a lesson in business and a possible chance to go big.  I just didn't see it as a good investment.  Maybe a future update episode will prove me wrong.

[Gregg247]

The candle costs $7 to make.  Mark then sells it for $14 (the wholesale price) to a retailer, giving him a 50% margin.  The retailer then sells it to the consumer for $28, which gives him a 50% margin as well.

 

My only question is about that guy at the end of the episode who agreed to help get the candles to the various retailers.  I assume he gets some kind of commission, but I don't know how much, or how that works exactly.

 

I'm pretty sure that Mark and his wife get the difference between the $7 cost of the candle and the wholesale price of $14.

[eddy]

The info graphic in this episode showed they were using Keystone pricing.  The price doubles every time the product changes hands in the supply chain.  So yes, the "guy at the end", AKA the distributer does get a commission: $7.    The retail store makes $14.  The candle company makes $7 minus the cost to produce & overhead. 7 + 7 + 14 = $28 retail sell price.

[cooksdelight]

Who buys candles the most? Women, I would guess. So when his wife was telling him they needed a stronger scent, and he flatout refused.....there's your problem. He's done no focus group testing, how the heck does he know who's buying them and why? If I'm going to spend $28 for a candle, it had better scent my entire house.

[PepperMonkey]

I don't know why Marcus was so enamored of this business. I liked the wife a lot and Mark was not horribly objectionable, but it's candles.

 

After all the folderol, all the "will Mark be able to change? I don't know", all the other usual Lemonis insistences, the last product they produced was just like every other scented candle with "kitting" that's out on the market AND I've never heard of it before.

 

While some of his artsy fartsy stuff was a little too "inside" and precious, I LOVED those drip candles to death. I haven't seen those in ages and I don't remember seeing any that well done, ever. It's like they just abandoned those, though, because I'm pretty sure the manufacturer they got for the scented candles can't do those custom-looking drip jobs.

 

I'm a Marcus fan, but I do sometimes question who he chooses to help and why.

[stormy]

My favorite thing from this episode.  Sam

[qtpye]

I didn't like Mark's new design for the candles, and while Marcus' suggestion of fading out the color helped, it still looked like a box of Kleenex to me.

 

 

When I saw the picture with the recap.. I thought it was a box of Kleenex at first.  I have not seen the episode yet, so I was thinking (since Marcus is a much more astute business person then myself) personalized Kleenex boxes must be the next big thing.

[cooksdelight]

Biren & Co. is what pops up when I type in thewickedcandle in a search for their website. Did I miss the part where they decided to change the company name?

[Amarsir]

So Marcus gave them a new name, a new product line with a new theme, a new recipe, new production facility, and new retail connections. Mark has a talent for design, but Marcus also overruled the choice on the jar and on the box.

 

Is the theme of the show still about other people's businesses?

[Amarsir]

Ahhh.  In case any of us were thinking there's not enough crossover, found this on their website:

 

[sugarbaker design]

Biren & Co. is what pops up when I type in thewickedcandle in a search for their website. Did I miss the part where they decided to change the company name?

 

Yup, there was a conversation between Marcus and the couple where ML requested a brand name change using Mark's actual last name (in honor of his father), ergo Biren & Co.  When I heard it, I envisioned Byron & Co.

[selhars]

First about candles, then about Marcus and this episode…..

1) I AM a candle buyer, and will pay luxury price for them…why? I'm a sucker for 1) packaging, and 2) scent. If you can get me with those two you're half way to a sale. In the high end candle market -- $28 is a CHEAP candle. At stores like Nordstrom and Bloomingdales I've bought the brands Diptyque (French) and Jo Malone, 2.4 ounces for 32.00, 6 oz for 80.00, and Jo Malone (London) 7 oz for 65.00. Also Elton Joh candles (by Nest) -- and a lot of other brands -- aren't cheap.

 

Obviously scented candles are a completely optional or lifestyle kind of purchase. Like other products they're totally discretionary. So FIRST, you have to have a potential customer that's open to buying candles for reasons other than need….THEN you have to get them by packaging and scent. AND for health or environmental reasons they may want not a cheap paraffin wax candle…they may want a soy or beeswax candle which is NOT going to be at a Dollar Store Walmart price point.

 

2) Now as for the show….(in no particular order)

a) Sure Marcus toned down the packaging, but was it REALLY that much of a difference. I like Mark's Idea and Marcus'.

b) It wasn't clear whether they totally abandoned their special pre-drip look…which I DO think there's a market for. They just needed more promotion. With the right promotion, you can sell ice to Eskimos. The guy in the store even said they did sell. It was the "artistic" story candles that didn't sell that much. But if you lower the price and get them in the RIGHT shop they'd sell. NEVER in BIG numbers but I see all kinds of shit in gift shops The one with the Victrola on it should be in a music shop. But again that's NOT mass market.

 

b) Kitting and having other products is great….but how are they any different from any other company I see at Marshals, TJ Maxx or Ross everyday already? This is not to say don't go into that market, and branch out. But with so many options already….personally I don't see any reason to by them versus something else -- OTHER than where I started packaging and scent.

 

They already had clients such as Urban Outfitters and others. I got the impression MARK didn't know how to hang onto the big accounts he had.

 

c) Lord knows I'm not an entrepreneur and certainly have never wanted to be in sales. But if I were I want to be in the toilet paper business. Sure there's lots of competition, but at least you know it's a product people have to buy…they'll come to YOU to buy it. As for candles it's no secret that when the recession hit, discretionary spending is a major category in a person's budget that gets slashed -- and depending on your clientele LUXURY discretionary spending really gets cut.

 

d) as a potential customer -- who is a candle buyer, personally I'm about ingredients…so I prefer a beeswax (or maybe soy) candle which burns cleaner than cheaper waxes….and lotions and soap with no glycerin alcohol etc. So if his new line is cheaply made with cheap ingredients -- like any other has market line….I can't say I wouldn't buy it for a gift fro someone else…but again how is that any different from 5 hand creams in a gift pack at Walgreens for 10.00?…that's HALF PRICE after Christmas. Or the real cheap knock-off stuff at the Dollar Store?

 

As a show viewer this I loved seeing Marcus' business mind at work. I liked to see that he's not just picking business to make a gazillion bucks and make every deal and mega deal.

Edited December 9, 2015 by selhars

[Josiah Bounderby]

This ep seemed to be good casting for the show and a rather unexciting business venture for Marcus.

"But everyone can relate to candles!" said the excited producer. "And the wife is good looking enough to be a somewhat successful tv host!"

"Hmmm" says the trusted person from the Marcus empire.

"She has a really expressive smile!"

"Eh..."

"And the husband has a personal problem from his childhood that he NEVER SPEAKS ABOUT because it is SO PAINFUL! And we can get him to share it in exchange for Marcus' money. It has something to do with HIS PARENTS DIVORCE!"

"Not child abuse?"

"Oh, God, no."

"Ok, fine. We can pitch it to Marcus."

[toodles]

Enough with the crying and the sob stories. This show is still interesting, but tell me why I should buy these candles instead of the hundreds of other candles on the market.

I miss the Amazing grapes type of show. I learned something, but this? Not so much.

Eta-my Kindle is wonky this morning.

Edited December 9, 2015 by toodles

[mojito]

 

While some of his artsy fartsy stuff was a little too "inside" and precious, I LOVED those drip candles to death. I haven't seen those in ages and I don't remember seeing any that well done, ever. It's like they just abandoned those, though, because I'm pretty sure the manufacturer they got for the scented candles can't do those custom-looking drip jobs.

I was kind of bummed that the drip look was gone. I never buy candles but was interested in them.

 

Based on what we saw of this couple, I nominate Sam as the best spouse so far. She seemed to be at once supportive of him, able to speak honestly about him (in his presence, no less), supportive of Marcus' opinions without seeming to jump on an opportunity to criticize Mark, upbeat, willing to work, and interested in learning. She even complained (expressed her concerns) well. 

 

I loved the original design of the candle and the more-educational-than-usual aspect of this episode, but for me, the standout was Sam (and I could care less about her appearance).

[rehoboth]

I didn't get this episode at all.  Did Marcus really need the Birons?  Because Marcus seemed to be doing all the work.  All of it.

 

First of all Marcus wanted the candles outsourced for price and so that the guy (whats-his-name?) could spend his time doing what he was really good at which was being a graphics designer.  But what I saw was Marcus over-ruling the 'expert' and changing his design.  Then Marcus told them what kind of scents he wanted.  Next, Marcus showed them how to branch out and sell additional related products and how to get them distributed.  What did the Birons bring to the table?  It looks like Marcus could have done this on his own, if he wanted to get in the candle making business.

[eddy]

I agree - What Marcus did to "fix" this company is analogous to fixing a broken car by lifting the radiator cap and driving a new car underneath.

[ethalfrida]

I agree - What Marcus did to "fix" this company is analogous to fixing a broken car by lifting the radiator cap and driving a new car underneath.

I know it's just me but what does that mean?

[eddy]

It means Marcus did not keep much of the company assets / product design / process / branding.  He invested and then replaced just about everything to "fix" the company.  Much like "fixing" a broken car by replacing it with a new car.

[ethalfrida]

It means Marcus did not keep much of the company assets / product design / process / branding.  He invested and then replaced just about everything to "fix" the company.  Much like "fixing" a broken car by replacing it with a new car.

Okay. thanks...

[tehach]

Ugh, not sure why he would value that guy's hobby at $600k other than for charity's sake. Nothing proprietary, losses mounting, eclectic goth style, dubious creativity, "we're branded" type owners...Nothing to see there, but of course, I don't buy $28 candles.

 

Did notice the piles and piles of shipping boxes in and outside the factory marked Wicked Candles, pre-dripped candles, and Made in Vietnam. Didn't fit the narrative so guess it just wasn't mentioned.

[qtpye]

I have not watched all the episode yet, but did anyone demonstrate how they made the candles?  I just saw people loading them in a box.  It would make sense that they were actually made somewhere else, since how can 2 maybe 4 people fulfill orders on that scale?

 

I have a fascination with candle making and carving and that would be really cook to see.  The Wicked people (including the two friends) were quite photogenic.

Edited December 15, 2015 by qtpye

[peppergal]

I have not watched all the episode yet, but did anyone demonstrate how they made the candles?  I just saw people loading them in a box.  It would make sense that they were actually made someone else, since how can 2 maybe 4 people fulfill orders on that scale?

 

 

It was sort of blink and you miss it, but yes there was a scene where the guy demonstrated how he made a candle.  It was where Marcus first questioned how much fragrance was in the candle and stated that he didn't think it was enough.

[woodscommaelle]

I didn't like the packaging pre-Marcus and I didn't like it post-Marcus.

Sam was so excited by everything. Loved her. What great energy!!

[TimetoShine]

The only thing I got from this episode is that I hate the look of pre-dripped candles. Don't get it.

[JasminePhyllisia]

I don't know why Marcus was so enamored of this business. I liked the wife a lot and Mark was not horribly objectionable, but it's candles.

 

After all the folderol, all the "will Mark be able to change? I don't know", all the other usual Lemonis insistences, the last product they produced was just like every other scented candle with "kitting" that's out on the market AND I've never heard of it before.

 

While some of his artsy fartsy stuff was a little too "inside" and precious, I LOVED those drip candles to death. I haven't seen those in ages and I don't remember seeing any that well done, ever. It's like they just abandoned those, though, because I'm pretty sure the manufacturer they got for the scented candles can't do those custom-looking drip jobs.

 

I'm a Marcus fan, but I do sometimes question who he chooses to help and why.

Besides women, I think it's props people for TV and film sets. Pretty much every show or movie, when there is a romantic scene, has candles everywhere, whether it's the bedroom or around the bathtub. I can't imagine that's realistic, total fire hazard plus what pain to put them all out.

 

I really liked the dripped candles, but just for show, I would imagine they would like messy when they burned down.

[RemoteControlFreak]

I was kind of bummed that the drip look was gone. I never buy candles but was interested in them.

The drip candles are still part of their line.  http://birenandco.com/collections/frontpage

 

The story focused on the flowered box line, which was Marcus copying what the Candle Delirium told him was their best seller.

[qtpye]

I really liked the dripped candles, but just for show, I would imagine they would like messy when they burned down.

 

 

No, that was what was so cool about them.  You had the drip, but the owner said the candles burned clean, so there was no mess.  I liked them, too.

[Kiss my mutt]

I was kind of confused about the manufacturer. It seemed like to me that every candle they made looked the same except for the brand's boxes. I really think Mark's graphic design work is where his talent lies. Candles are everywhere so it seems like there wouldn't be enough market share to really make a dent.

I don't think this company needed a whole redesign. I think they just needed better business practices.

[caligirl50]

Did I miss something? Marcus is now involved with a candle company titled Biren. Did he change Wick'ed's name?  He's at the NY Gift Show at the Javits Center and he posted a photo of their booth over the weekend...before the Show started.

[citychic]

Did I miss something? Marcus is now involved with a candle company titled Biren. Did he change Wick'ed's name?  He's at the NY Gift Show at the Javits Center and he posted a photo of their booth over the weekend...before the Show started.

It looks like he did change the name. 

http://www.theprofitupdates.com/2015/12/the-profit-wicked-candle-company-update.html

 

The Deal From The Episode Plus Post-Show Updates (this will be updated continually):

    The Deal - $200,000 for 33% of the business.  The money will be for inventory, new designs and packaging and to pay Mark's dad back.  Marcus is also 100% in charge.

    The company was renamed to Biren & Company and the Wick'ed website has been updated with the new name.

    On the website, there is a Sweet Pete's Line of Candy Candles.  Sweet Pete's is a business that was also on The Profit.

 

Some of Marcus' decisions confuse me, I guess there is probably a lot we don't see on the show but if I had poured my heart and soul into a small business with a name that meant something it would be hard to let it go. A lot of what he ends up with looks very commercial and trendy.

 

Edit to add that I think the new candle box design is absolutely horrible. It reminds me of every smelly perfume my grandmas wore combined in one bottle. It also reminds me of that chevron rug Mary Mcdonald put in her office.

Edited February 2, 2016 by citychic

[caligirl50]

Well the booth was really good and the products looked great. Depending on the fragrances, I could see this working, IF the original owners work with him.

[nobodyyoucare]

Well the booth was really good and the products looked great. Depending on the fragrances, I could see this working, IF the original owners work with him.

You still have the Wicked candle line with the pre dripped ones. The other stuff is new and interestingly has a burn time of 100 hours. I am curious enough to order one and see how it smells. 

[hatchetgirl]

They totally copied the best seller at that Candle Delirium store. That was lame. I think the packaging would have looked nicer with a clean cream box, the logo and then a single flower. It didn't need that black and white and it definitely didn't need old lady floral wall paper.

Mark was a putz. Especially going to the distributor meeting with a still black eye. His wife couldn't hide that with a touch of makeup? He just looked hideous with yellow bruise, untucked plaid shirt, and backpack. So not professional.