B&B: What's Up Today at Forrester Creations? - Daily Chat

[Anna Yolei]

Maya 1.0 was one of the most boring Mary Sues that B&B had produced in a long while, and I say this as Hope worship was at its peak during this time.

Now, she's boring for a different reason: she gets Hope's level of worship, Taylor's level of class (see what I did there?) and Amber's level of pity parties for the heinous shit she does. I'm glad Maya is trans so we can be spared Nick's number of lost chances at parenthood,unless Bridget was brought on to Google up a way to insert a fake uterus. Given the Cricket Blair level of propping lately, that wouldn't be a surprise.

[Cupid Stunt]

I find Julius' reaction to Maya much more realistic than Rick's almost instantaneous acceptance. Some men, especially of his generation, put a lot of stock into having a son. Having this son be transgender would be a real blow to him. He would lose face.

 

Julius has tried to withhold or amend his true feelings about losing Myron into the "unnatural" and manufactured Maya. He hasn't been very successful keeping his opinions to himself because that is not how he runs his life or his family. Everything is about Julius, reflecting on his good name and character.

 

Maya, the "Hollywood" Forrester family and this farcical wedding all reflect badly on this honorable man of the Midwest. Julius can see the financial and practical benefits of Maya marrying into and working for the Forrester's, but it's all outside the norm of his correct Midwestern values and outlook, and always will be. His assumptions and attitudes haven't changed over the time he has been in L.A., he's been hedging his responses to appear civil, almost accommodating.  But now that the wedding is about to commence, all civilities have been set aside and Julius' opinion is out in the open -- As was his intention from the beginning.  

 

Julius came to Los Angeles to regain some small measure of vindication for what Maya did to the Avant family name and bloodline. He's winding himself into a righteous fury just before the wedding ceremony with impeccable timing ... announcing your disgust for the unwanted position Maya has forced you into, as you are about to walk her down the aisle.

 

 

As if $Bill begging Maya's forgiveness for his behavior wasn't bad enough, there has to be one more ham-handed opportunity by TIIC to prop Maya and Rick before the nuptials.

 

<blerg>

[catalogrrr]

Insert newer viewer questions: Is Eric a snob? Is there a reason he doesn't play golf? He seemed to be so rude to Julius, I actually started to feel sorry for him when Eric refused his (seemingly genuine) gift.

This wedding is entirely inappropriate. Poor dead Aly. I supposed it gives Rick another opportunity to talk about Maya's bravery. Sigh

Nicole is awful. I can't stand her.

[catalogrrr]

The point here is that two wrongs don't make a right. Maya's dad sucks for being a bigot, but she sucks, period, full stop.

EXACTLY!!

[Cupid Stunt]

Maya 1.0 was one of the most boring Mary Sues that B&B had produced in a long while, and I say this as Hope worship was at its peak during this time.

Now, she's boring for a different reason: she gets Hope's level of worship, Taylor's level of class (see what I did there?) and Amber's level of pity parties for the heinous shit she does. I'm glad Maya is trans so we can be spared Nick's number of lost chances at parenthood,unless Bridget was brought on to Google up a way to insert a fake uterus. Given the Cricket Blair level of propping lately, that wouldn't be a surprise.

 

Dear Goddess no!

 

I go into a glucose coma with Bridget's level of self-sacrifice for her immediate family. And Ashley Jones sucks.

[Anna Yolei]

Insert newer viewer questions: Is Eric a snob? Is there a reason he doesn't play golf? He seemed to be so rude to Julius, I actually started to feel sorry for him when Eric refused his (seemingly genuine) gift.

This wedding is entirely inappropriate. Poor dead Aly. I supposed it gives Rick another opportunity to talk about Maya's bravery. Sigh

Nicole is awful. I can't stand her.

I haven't seen the episode, but Eric never was a snob that I recall. Hell, Stephanie's family was considerably better off than his and her father gave him the seed money to start FC (and THAT in and of itself is a story of its own. But I digress).

Maybe Eric was bristling at Julius for his treatment of Maya, Saint of Goodness and Virtue now that we no longer have Taylor on the show?

Speaking of Julian, his behavior is the most earnest, realistic response anyone has had for Maya in all of this. I'm black and in our culture, there is a lot of social pressure among ourselves to stick to the status quo on how we live, what to wear, how women in particular do with their hair and from an early age we kids are taught that other people's opinion of our lives matter.

I can go on all day on this topic, being a Sci fi/anime nerd that does my hair up on the rare occassion that calls for it, don't feel the need to turn up and still had no clue who or what a Meek Mills is. I grew up hearing about what will this neighbor think or what white people will think if I had a temper tantrum or had a hair out of place. It was like who I was and what I wanted mattered less than what others thought me to be, and my mother to this day does not get the damage that did. But I digress.

I can totally believe Julius putting his neighbors and his pride ahead of himself and his wants and his daughters' happiness (that includes Nicole, too) because he's been taught to, and he's got even more pressure to do so being a man. As a tool to prop Maya, I hate this because nothing excuses her actions beginning with the classy way she exposed CaRidge and ending with her action being part of the reason Aly is dead. But as a characterization, it works.

[Joimiaroxeu]

I found this bonus scene and am wondering why TPTB chose not to air it. Rick does apologize to Thorne and somewhat acknowledge his treatment of Aly. Maya acknowledges hers too but again, she's conditional about it. It's not 100% what I would have wanted to see from those two self-centered love birds but I think it's a dramatic step up from what's been actually shown on the show. This is really puzzling to me unless someone behind the scenes wants to leave Maya looking bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDk-ti-WJF8

[hypnotoad]

I don't think that bonus scene makes Rick and Maya look much better. Liam is the one that steps up and spills the beans on the two of them and then Maya pretty much puts the blame back on Aly by saying she was always cheerful as we bullied her. Sure I'm paraphrasing there but that's essentially what she's saying. Plus, she isn't the least bit apologetic. In fact, she seems pretty put out that Thorne is even questioning anything. Rick might come off slightly better but that isn't saying much.

Edited August 8, 2015 by hypnotoad

[Joimiaroxeu]

Well, Maya does say, "..I was not nice to Aly and I'm ashamed of that." That's probably about as close to an apology as is possible for the newly deified Maya.

 

still had no clue who or what a Meek Mills is

Heh, apparently most of the known world had no clue what a Meek Mills is until he decided to climb on Drake's back to try to get a bigger name for himself. The whole thing smells of a PR ploy to me, for both Mills and Drake. IMO Drake's people keep contriving these situations with other hip hop/rap artists to make him look like a badass. The key problem is that they have to keep doing it.

 

[bittersweet4149]

Speaking of Julian, his behavior is the most earnest, realistic response anyone has had for Maya in all of this. I'm black and in our culture, there is a lot of social pressure among ourselves to stick to the status quo on how we live, what to wear, how women in particular do with their hair and from an early age we kids are taught that other people's opinion of our lives matter.

I can go on all day on this topic, being a Sci fi/anime nerd that does my hair up on the rare occassion that calls for it, don't feel the need to turn up and still had no clue who or what a Meek Mills is. I grew up hearing about what will this neighbor think or what white people will think if I had a temper tantrum or had a hair out of place. It was like who I was and what I wanted mattered less than what others thought me to be, and my mother to this day does not get the damage that did. But I digress.

I can totally believe Julius putting his neighbors and his pride ahead of himself and his wants and his daughters' happiness (that includes Nicole, too) because he's been taught to, and he's got even more pressure to do so being a man. As a tool to prop Maya, I hate this because nothing excuses her actions beginning with the classy way she exposed CaRidge and ending with her action being part of the reason Aly is dead. But as a characterization, it works.

I'm sitting in the Amen corner, got my church fan going, and I'm co-signing all of this! To borrow from Chris Rock, I may not necessarily agree with Julius, but I understand. Besides, this storyline beats the hell out out of anything involving Waffle and the Blowfish, so its all good. I'm actually looking forward to Monday's show to see how the wedding plays out.

[thewhiteowl]

Of all the people for $Bill to go wholly OOC for and apologize to, it had to be St. Maya and I was like whaaat? He had a perfectly good reason for publishing that, it was news! He spent days justifying and defending that. Sure it was shitty but that's who $Bill is! What a crock of prop.

[OhioSongbird]

Just watched the clip posted above and I'm confused.  Was that supposed to be before Aly died or after?  Cause I thought Thorne arrived after she died. 

 

I know guys like Julius....my family.  White, Hard-Shell Baptist hill people.  I had a cousin when I was younger (he's passed, sadly...car accident) that all us kids knew was gay but none of the adults would ever admit it.  If he had came out (60-70's) my uncles and grandfather would react just like Julius did.

 

I am constantly amazed at how beautiful KM is.  Yes. I'm a fangirl.  I thought she killed it Thurs-Fri.  Her balcony meltdown was well done.

 

Can't wait till Monday.  Will she run or not. I wouldn't be surprised if she did.

[Anna Yolei]

Just watched the clip posted above and I'm confused. Was that supposed to be before Aly died or after? Cause I thought Thorne arrived after she died.

Me, too.

And on a side note, WH's acting in that scene was so flat. I've seen more passion outta Thorne when he and Felicia were plotting to break Eric and Donna apart.

I know guys like Julius....my family. White, Hard-Shell Baptist hill people. I had a cousin when I was younger (he's passed, sadly...car accident) that all us kids knew was gay but none of the adults would ever admit it. If he had came out (60-70's) my uncles and grandfather would react just like Julius did.

The actor playing Julius gave an interview after being cast that I think may have been linked here. He mentioned how there's a lot of this mentality that still exists today in the black community where a man in particular is gay and some don't want to admit it. I have well-educated black friends who have liberal views that attribute being gay and black to being raised in single mother homes...which is ridiculous since a good number of ALL black children born between the 60s and 90s were raised in single parent households and the majority of them are obviously not gay.

As for Baptists...well,let's just say I never thought I'd have to unfriend someone on FB for their views, much less a Navy chaplain, but there's a limit to the amount of ignorance I can read about gay rights and Planned Parenthood.

[Hawkeye720]

Thorne arrived after the fashion show, the night of the accident. When that scene happened, Aly was still alive. He found out she died the next morning (I think) when Steffy came home. He never saw Aly.

[SweePea59]

So Budge is back to being the world's best doctor again? I thought that when she left the show she was Madame X, the world's best fashion designer. And when she said with a big smile that she didn’t want to miss another family function, (you know like Aly's funeral the other day) it was utterly inane. I really didn’t expect her to be so heartless.

 

Hated that they had $Bill apologize. That was so not $Bill. Very out of character.

[smartyshorts]

I hope that putting St Maya up on higher and higher pedestals will mean she falls that much harder and faster. Pill addiction? Buy a baby on the black market due to Baby Rabies? Finally just out right kills someone in front of witnesses? How do you Solve a Problem Like Saint Mayaaaaa? 

I'm still not watching and I am so glad I haven't.

Are they repurposing any of Ally's flower arrangements for this Fabu wedding of the... month? 

Could someone post pictures of the dresses? I've heard wonderful things about Maya's and Brooke's dresses I will be damned if I tune in again any time soon.

 

Speaking of Julian, his behavior is the most earnest, realistic response anyone has had for Maya in all of this. I'm black and in our culture, there is a lot of social pressure among ourselves to stick to the status quo on how we live, what to wear, how women in particular do with their hair and from an early age we kids are taught that other people's opinion of our lives matter.

I can go on all day on this topic, being a Sci fi/anime nerd that does my hair up on the rare occassion that calls for it, don't feel the need to turn up and still had no clue who or what a Meek Mills is. I grew up hearing about what will this neighbor think or what white people will think if I had a temper tantrum or had a hair out of place. It was like who I was and what I wanted mattered less than what others thought me to be, and my mother to this day does not get the damage that did. But I digress.

Anna Y,  are you me?

 

As for that Clip, Maya and Rick can stuff their sorries in a sock.  

Edited August 10, 2015 by smartyshorts

[RuntheTable]

I have tried so hard to hold my irritation in check, and keep my ranting to a minimum, but Friday's show doused my simmering embers with a fresh blast of accelerant. So now Bill has sold out, and has joined the communal Kumbaya movement for Maya. I knew something was afoot the minute he walked in wearing unBill like attire, and looking freshly neutered. As he began to talk, I had visions of the 80's film Funny Farm, when Chevy Chase was chowing down on Lamb Balls, and the waitress told him the trick was to "cut them off way up high" as she demonstrated with her hands. When Bill opened his mouth to talk, I fully expected him to squeak. Bill is a business man and a publisher, but before all that, he is a jerk. He had no reason to apologize. I have never known Bill to care what anyone thinks about his actions, and that includes his loved ones. Now, all of a sudden, he is worried about offending Katie's extended family? Not to mention, extended family that he detests? Yes, the last bastion of reason and truth has now joined the gauntlet of Maya love, and is standing right along side everyone else nodding in approval and worship like a mindless bobblehead. 

 

I guess it wasn't enough for Maya that Bill came offering the Spencer Family Jewels on a platter, cause she made damn certain it was clear what he was apologizing for. I nearly choked when she said "Oh, no. I'm clear that you don't want tension and that you want me to shrug off what you did to me, to rick, to the company that you own a portion of. What I'm asking is, are you seriously sorry?" Shrug off what you did to me? Isn't that exactly what Maya and Rick have both done in regards to their treatment of Ally? Then to go on with "You almost got me to leave my job, my town, my fiancé. Your attack was cruel. It was unnecessary." Your town? His attack was cruel and unnecessary? Oh, like when you and Rick were laughing at Ally as she modeled a pair of her shoes, and the heel came off and you both laughed uproariously? Or maybe when Rick forced Ally to give the room she had occupied in her Grandfather's house to Nicole? Or could it be the time Rick was upset that Ally made him crab claws and had already cracked them, and told her to make him something else instead, and you told him he was "so bad". And of course there is no comparison in losing your job, your man, and you know, losing your fucking life. And once again, Maya gets to come off as this gracious, magnanimous, forgiving soul. 

 

It was nice that Bridget was able to make this one family function. God forbid she wasn't part of the Maya Love In. 

 

Papa A is a closed minded, old fashioned, judgmental man, and that is perfectly his right. I guess when you consider the ratio of Maya supporter/detractors is now about 20 to 1, I would consider the odds in Maya's favor. At least Julius is keeping it real. 

 

I wonder if they just kept the flowers and seating from Ally's service for the wedding; might as well save a little cash given the two events were pretty much back to back. 

 

Brooke looked fabulous, but I am finding her cheeks more and more distracting. I can barely see her eyes anymore. 

 

Maya looked beautiful, and Nicole looked nice as well. I am glad she didn't refashion one of Boy George's outfits for the wedding. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by RuntheTable

[Joimiaroxeu]

the ratio of Maya supporter/detractors is now about 20 to 1

You mean on the show, right? Because in soap forum land that doesn't appear to be the case at all. I don't what B&B intended to do with this Maya retcon but unless it was meant to get a lot of people to dislike her, IMO they've failed.

[CountryGirl]

I only watched Friday's episode so my thoughts are kind of jumbled.

 

While it is insulting that they've glossed over Aly's death, it's kind of par for the course with this show. Some characters (Stephanie Forrester for one) get a huge swan song, others (ironically, Darla) are barely a blip on the radar. The only character I've ever seen remembered year after year isn't even on this show - it's Cassie Newman from Y&R. Even Mrs. C didn't get that kind of homage.

 

I quite agree that Rick and Maya share some responsibility in sending Aly down the very dark path but I think it is highly likely that she would have gone that route regardless. They put kerosene on the fire to be sure and I wish we had seen more of what was only hinted at in the extra scene with regard to their referencing their part in her downward spiral (remind me again why THESE scenes are the extras - when they should be incorporated from the get-go). It's saying something that the person who showed the most compassion for Aly was Steffy. 

 

I also question why Aly's so called friends - cousin Ivy, boyfriend Oliver, Aunt Pam, Uncle Ridge, didn't think to call Thorne the minute she started acting out again (which was several weeks ago) or reach out to her but nope, they were all wrapped up in their own lives. They, too, share in the culpability as they were supposed to be her support group and had a front row seat to the Rick/Maya show. They let her down in a huge way. Good lord, Ivy, coming upon the scene on the highway, stops to take a video instead of immediately trying to calm Aly. WTF? Those few seconds could have been the difference between life and death.

 

Moving on to the the wedding build up.

 

KKL looked gorgeous - I love her hair that way. She is such a beautiful woman. They continue to put her in Eric's orbit but I'm just not feeling it. He seems too old for her and it annoys me to no end to see Katie with Bill, who should be with Brooke, although not this emasculated, balls-in-Katie's-handbag version of Bill. He wasn't a bit sorry. He only apologized because Mommy, I mean, Katie, made him. To see those two together just sets my teeth on edge.

 

Maya looked gorgeous as well and Nicole, well, that was a pleasant surprise. 

 

I did feel sorry for Maya, listening to her father reveal his true (and very realistic) feelings about this situation that was thrust upon him. No one deserves that and certainly not minutes before they walk down the aisle. 

 

Waves hello to the lovely Ashley Jones. I have always adored "her" Bridget. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by CountryGirl

[Anna Yolei]

The only character I've ever seen remembered year after year isn't even on this show - it's Cassie Newman from Y&R. Even Mrs. C didn't get that kind of homage.

I figured that had more to do with the idiotic decision of Lynn Marie Latham to kill her off and the fan rage that ensured after that. It's gotten to be way too much, especially now that the actress is back on contract again.

[Anna Yolei]

I did feel sorry for Maya, listening to her father reveal his true (and very realistic) feelings about this situation that was thrust upon him. No one deserves that and certainly not minutes before they walk down the aisle.

I don't, because I'm sure everyone including Bill will be right by her side to tell her how wonderful she is, how perfect and strong she is and Julius is the evilest evil to ever eviled. Gimme a break. I'm so over the Maya propping.

And the Bill apology? Please. It took months before he showed any kind of remorse to Katie for banging Brooke and it took Hope's miscarriage for them to have one scene where he wasn't berating her for not being Steffy.

Thing is, Bill is an asshole, but he's not wrong. I do think the one truly shitty thing he owes Maya any sort of apology for was trying to land her back in prison. The rest of it, she can have Rick blow up her ass.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Anna Yolei

[RuntheTable]

You mean on the show, right? Because in soap forum land that doesn't appear to be the case at all. I don't what B&B intended to do with this Maya retcon but unless it was meant to get a lot of people to dislike her, IMO they've failed.

 

 

Absolutely! And you are so correct; the show hasn't done the Maya character any favors, because the dislike is pretty much universal across the boards I visit. 

 

Bradley should have realized that viewers would take this as a two prong issue; viewers can feel bad for what Maya has been through with the whole transgender thing, but can still despise her for being a gold digging, conniver and opportunist, who took pleasure in watching a mentally challenged young girl get bullied and abused. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Right, I don't think the audience suddenly finding out that she's transgendered is the problem. I think the problem is the writers are using her transgendered status as her all-purpose no fault/no excuse card. Yes, what $Bill did to her was horrid, what Mr. Avant is doing to her now is awful, and Nicole's initially trying to blackmail her was terrible. But, we never saw any of the suffering Maya apparently experienced growing up; we were only told about it. Meanwhile, we did see her and Rick repeatedly bullying and victimizing Aly. And now Aly's dead and Maya and Rick are skipping right along without a care in the world. At the end of the day Maya'll be just fine despite anything Bill or her father do. You'd think the writers would let her show even a tiny bit of grace instead of having her act like she deserves a gold star for her achievement as Rick's third bride.

[politichick]

Do you guys think that Bill really meant that apology? He's probably just trying to keep Saint Katie off of his back.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Do you guys think that Bill really meant that apology? He's probably just trying to keep Saint Katie off of his back.

 

No way!  Katie leading Bill around by the nose like that makes me sick but Bill allowing her to do it makes me hurl too! 

[ch1]

Do you guys think that Bill really meant that apology? He's probably just trying to keep Saint Katie off of his back.

 

 

When it comes to his apology to Maya I can't put that on Katie.  The writers don't care about Katie.  This was about another character bowing at Maya's alter.  This show is not being remotely subtle with her propping.

 

Its amazing to me that the writers are using a character cutting off their penis as a get out of jail free card.  

[DollEyes]

  The Saga Of St. Maya is working my last nerve. Julius' reluctance/refusal to accept Maya isn't pretty, but at least it's honest. As Another Black woman, ITA with Anna Yolei that Julius' attitude is accurate. Unfortunately, much of the Black community is homophobic and transphobic and Julius' bigotry is one of the few things, if not the only thing, this storyline has gotten right. Worst of all is the show's attempt to whitewash Maya's past or ignore it altogether, especially when it comes to Aly. Given Maya's own past, one would think that it would have made her more sympathetic to Aly's plight, but she was too busy worming her way into Rick's life/his bed to care. One of the very few things I'll give Steffy a small amount of credit for was her compassion for Aly, before her death, anyway. That doesn't mean that I like Steffy-she can cha-cha her cha-cha off the face of the earth, for all I care-but that does make Steffy a slightly better person than Maya. Then again, Norman Bates is also slightly better than Jason Voorhees.

 

  Re Aly's funeral, that Rick & Maya didn't speak was the only thing they did right where Aly's concerned. ITA that plenty of other people made mistakes where Aly was concerned, but Rick & Maya made more & IMO worse. They bullied a mentally ill teenage girl for months, only to rationalize it by saying that it was OK because Aly smiled the whole time, like that made it true. Rick & Maya's idea of "remorse" wasn't remorseful at all. To add insult to injury, now $Bill is being forced to kiss Maya's ass? What kind of deep-fried fuckery is that!? Bill owes Maya way less of an apology than Maya owed Aly because I believe that Maya-and Nicole, for that matter- actually deserved what they got from Bill & Wyatt; Aly, otoh, didn't deserve the way Rick and/or Maya treated her and if they really were the good people that the show wants us to think that they are, then they would have apologized to her long before it was too late. Apologizing to Aly might not have made all the difference in the world, but it might have made a big one.  Being transgender is not a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card and the more Maya and/or Rick suffers, the better, as far as I'm concerned.

Edited August 14, 2015 by DollEyes

[blackwing]

I agree that Rick and Maya treated Aly terribly, but I'm finding it interesting that there seems to be more criticism of them with resepct to Aly than there is criticism of Puffy Steffy, who, you know, actually killed her.  Even if Aly was the aggressor.  There wasn't really any reason why Steffy had to use that tire iron with such force.  

 

Not critcising other posters of course, just curious about the response.  I think it probably has a lot to do with the current depiction of Maya Who Walks On Water and her Little Napoleon Rick.  But as for me, I can't get past my dislike of Puffy.  I have disliked every incarnation of her.  From the 8 year old Doublemint identical dressing twin, to the Cigarette Voiced teen version, to horrifically horrible actress Jackie Wood one.

[Joimiaroxeu]

There wasn't really any reason why Steffy had to use that tire iron with such force.

Aly had just aimed a car at Steffy. That's 3 - 4 thousand pounds more dangerous than a tire iron. I think Steffy was justified to use whatever force she deemed necessary. What I don't understand is why Ivy is trying to paint it like Steffy murdered Aly (well, other than to try to get Steffy away from Liam). At worst it's manslaughter.

[Anna Yolei]

Regarding the dislike of Maya,how popular was she before all of this? Because I didn't particularly care for Maya 1.0 with he bland personality and her mushroom hair that made the chick from Cold Case look like she was done up by Gore Vidal in comparison and her transformation into Goldigger Maya came practically out of nowhere, after she and Rick were split up for months without sharing a scene.

Basically, Maya is like any given number of Y&R's post-JFP creations that never worked and clutter space, most notably Kelly Sullivan.

[Anna Yolei]

I agree that Rick and Maya treated Aly terribly, but I'm finding it interesting that there seems to be more criticism of them with resepct to Aly than there is criticism of Puffy Steffy, who, you know, actually killed her. Even if Aly was the aggressor. There wasn't really any reason why Steffy had to use that tire iron with such force.

Not critcising other posters of course, just curious about the response. I think it probably has a lot to do with the current depiction of Maya Who Walks On Water and her Little Napoleon Rick. But as for me, I can't get past my dislike of Puffy. I have disliked every incarnation of her. From the 8 year old Doublemint identical dressing twin, to the Cigarette Voiced teen version, to horrifically horrible actress Jackie Wood one.

Oh, God! The Hoover twins were the absolute WORST. I was glad to see them go and see MacKenzie Mauzy (who unlike those two, still has an acting career of which to speak) as Phoebe.

[Cool Breeze]

Like others have posted, I appreciate Julius' reaction to his transgender child.  When he sees Maya, he sees his son, Myron, in a dress, with makeup, physically altered to look like a woman.  It just doesn't compute.  I think if Myron had been gay, Julius may have had an easier time with it.  I'm not saying at all that he would be accepting or tolerant, just that he'd still be able to look at his son and see . . . his son.  Now, he doesn't know what he's looking at.  I've tried to look at Maya as being transgender and imagined her having once been a man.  I can understand Julius' discomfort.  Paradigm shifts like this are difficult to accept.  Your son becoming your daughter is one of them.  Heck, ultra-gay-friendly Cher accepted Chastity as a lesbian but had much greater difficulty accepting her transition to Chas.

 

The Vanity Fair article on Caitlyn Jenner was written by Buzz Bissinger, a hetero, married, occasional cross-dresser who's had relations with men, so he's not exactly rigid in his thinking.  Bissinger, who spent a lot of time with Caitlyn, made the observation that seeing the end result of the transition of the one-time "World's Greatest Athlete" into a woman was "weird".  He went on to say that "if you think it's not weird, you're giving yourself too much credit."

Edited August 10, 2015 by Cool Breeze

[tessaray]

I agree that Rick and Maya treated Aly terribly, but I'm finding it interesting that there seems to be more criticism of them with resepct to Aly than there is criticism of Puffy Steffy, who, you know, actually killed her.  Even if Aly was the aggressor.  There wasn't really any reason why Steffy had to use that tire iron with such force.  

 

 

Steffy was defending herself against an overwrought, homicidal girl coming at her with a huge rock, after trying to run her down with a car.  No way was it even manslaughter.  What I hate is that this tragedy is actively being used to ruin Ivy.  The removal of any reminder of Rick and Maya's treatment of Aly was probably just a bonus.  

[blackwing]

I don't disagree that Aly was crazy and was attacking Puffy, and that Puffy's actions were in self-defence.  But I fail to understand why she had to lie about it?  People knew Aly was crazy.  They found the voodoo dolls and the collage with the cut out eyes and what not in her bedroom.  It would have been very easy for Puffy to just tell the police that Aly blamed her for Taylor's drunk accidental killing of Darla 15 years ago.  Add that to the collage evidence and testimony about the erratic behaviour and I think it's quite a believable picture.  Instead, Puffy feels the need to lie, and then continue to cover it up, even when there is evidence to the contrary. 

[tessaray]

Like others have posted, I appreciate Julius' reaction to his transgender child.  When he sees Maya, he sees his son, Myron, in a dress, with makeup, physically altered to look like a woman.  It just doesn't compute.  I think if Myron had been gay, Julius may have had an easier time with it.  I'm not saying at all that he would be accepting or tolerant, just that he'd still be able to look at his son and see . . . his son.  Now, he doesn't know what he's looking at.  I've tried to look at Maya as being transgender and imagined her having once been a man.  I can understand Julius' discomfort.  Paradigm shifts like this are difficult to accept.  Your son becoming your daughter is one of them.  Heck, ultra-gay-friendly Cher accepted Chastity as a lesbian but had much greater difficulty accepting her transition to Chas.

 

I think about the Vanity Fair article on Caitlyn Jenner, written by Buzz Bissinger, who's a hetero, married, occasional cross-dresser who's had relations with men, so he's not exactly rigid in his thinking.  Bissinger, who spent a lot of time with Caitlyn, made the observation that seeing the end result of the transition of the one-time "World's Greatest Athlete" into a woman was "weird".  He went on to say that if you think it's not weird, you're giving yourself too much credit.

 

I've had my own reactions to confront with the 2 stories (1 real, 1 not) in that I'm okay with Maya because she made the commitment to become a woman completely.  I don't understand situations where trans people don't do surgery (if they have the resources) because in my mind it (gender) is an either/or thing.  And evidently this makes me as much of a relic as Julius, because people's anatomy is none of my business.  sigh... 

 

Maybe Julius will mellow some when the girl Myron got pregnant in high school shows up .  :-)

Edited August 10, 2015 by tessaray

[IOU Payne]

 

Maybe Julius will mellow some when the girl Myron got pregnant in high school shows up .  :-)

Bonus points if this takes place at the Adoption Party for Rick & Maya's baby. 

[Waldo13]

Unlike Rick and Bill, Julius is true to his convictions. Agree or disagree with Julius, he feels he has been betrayed by his son and the visions he had, for Myron, as he grew up. He probably saw a son getting married and, with grandchildren, carrying his name for another generation. Julius sees this as an atrocity the same way some old school ethnic groups could feel if their children marry outside of their ethnicity.

If Rick loves Maya so much, than why are they having such a cheep as wedding. Hope-Liam in Italy, Wyatt-Hope in Monty Carlo, Brooke-Bill (almost) in Dubai, and Rick-Maya in the Forester Manson. WTF. To me it seems that Rick and Maya are trying hard to downplay the wedding where a very public wedding would be excellent PR for FC. I'm sure even Bill would have reporters at the wedding.

Stopping the wedding, for Maya to talk to Julius, is just another ploy for TPTB to keep elevating St Maya to Mother Theresa status.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Waldo13

[Anna Yolei]

I've had my own reactions to confront with the 2 stories (1 real, 1 not) in that I'm okay with Maya because she made the commitment to become a woman completely. I don't understand situations where trans people don't do surgery (if they have the resources) because in my mind it (gender) is an either/or thing. And evidently this makes me as much of a relic as Julius, because people's anatomy is none of my business. sigh...

Maybe Julius will mellow some when the girl Myron got pregnant in high school shows up . :-)

And maybe it'll be a girl that falls for the kid Rick raised with Amber for a little while. This seems like a thing B&B would have done 15 years ago. :p

[slayer2]

 

 

Absolutely! And you are so correct; the show hasn't done the Maya character any favors, because the dislike is pretty much universal across the boards I visit.

Bradley should have realized that viewers would take this as a two prong issue; viewers can feel bad for what Maya has been through with the whole transgender thing, but can still despise her for being a gold digging, conniver and opportunist, who took pleasure in watching a mentally challenged young girl get bullied and abused.

 

 

They like her fine on twitter (myself included) there are haters but there are a lot of lovers as well. I find this board tends to be a lot more anti-about the storylines than twitter does frankly.

 

On another note I don't think Aly was mentally challenged, I think she was mentally disturbed in the same way Quinn is. I also see what you're saying about a two prong issue and Bell should have known better but by the same token if he knew better he would have run with Thayzee because Kristolyn Lloyd and Adam Gregory had some serious chemistry and he threw it away and started over with Maya and Rick (not to say that they don't have chemistry), I'm still bitter about that. But truly, I'm done feeling bad for Aly, I have all the time in the world for sympathy for Thorne but Aly *shoulder shrug* never knew her, never cared to.

 

Honestly IMO as much as other people should have noticed her before, Aly is loaded and has tons of money for therapy and I'm pretty darn sure the last words out of her therapist's mouth would have been something along the lines of "If you ever see your mother's floating head again..." The onus was also on Aly to reach out to someone to seek professional counsel, she's been down the road before and it seemed to deepen as time progressed, she still had enough wherewithal to put her clothes on and not defecate on herself so that's enough wherewithal (at least in the beginning) to reach out to someone she trusts and say "I might be having some bad thoughts here". Granted the someone she trusts is the same idiot who sat there videotaping her trying to kill her cousin instead of doing something about it but all the same.  They all failed Aly in this situation but she also failed herself.

 

In unfortunate related news, another black transgender woman was murdered recently. I know they are trying hard to keep the focus on love and love alone but I feel like some sort of threat of physical violence would be the realistic backlash to Bill running the story and at the same time educate the audience as to what is happening to these women. There is also the added concern that there is a disproportionate amount of black transgender women murdered, (not to say that there is anything proportionate about any transgender woman being murdered) and since Maya identifies as black, it might behoove them to do more than touch on that issue since along with the growing social disturbances in America this is included among them.

Edited August 10, 2015 by slayer2

[TobinAlbers]

 

Maybe Julius will mellow some when the girl Myron got pregnant in high school shows up .  :-)

Yep, that's how they'll give Myra a kid. And it would be awesome if it was a girl that fell for Lil' D. It'd finally give Deacon a story on the show.

 

Actually the return of Lil' D is exactly the drama Quinn and Deacon need. Deacon and Rick would be dueling dads; Lil' D would drive Wyatt nuts (Liam could chortle that Wyatt now knows how it feels to have a new 'brother' stepping on his heels) And I'd finally be interested in Amber on the scene if she's squaring off (or possibly befriending) Quinn. That's a crazy friendship that would be entertaining.

[tessaray]

They like her fine on twitter (myself included) there are haters but there are a lot of lovers as well. I find this board tends to be a lot more anti-about the storylines then twitter does frankly.

 

On another note I don't think Aly was mentally challenged, I think she was mentally disturbed in the same way Quinn is. I also see what you're saying about a two prong issue and Bell should have known better but by the same token if he knew better he would have run with Thayzee because Kristolyn Lloyd and Adam Gregory had some serious chemistry and he threw it away and started over with Maya and Rick (not to say that they don't have chemistry), I'm still bitter about that. But truly, I'm done feeling bad for Aly, I have all the time in the world for sympathy for Thorne but Aly *shoulder shrug* never knew her, never cared to.

 

Honestly IMO as much as other people should have noticed her before, Aly is loaded and has tons of money for therapy and I'm pretty darn sure the last words out of her therapist's mouth would have been something along the lines of "If you ever see your mother's floating head again..." The onus was also on Aly to reach out to someone to seek professional counsel, she's been down the road before and it seemed to deepen as time progressed, she still had enough wherewithal to put her clothes on and not defecate on herself so that's enough wherewithal (at least in the beginning) to reach out to someone she trusts and say "I might be having some bad thoughts here". Granted the someone she trusts is the same idiot who sat there videotaping her trying to kill her cousin instead of doing something about it but all the same.  They all failed Aly in this situation but she also failed herself.

 

In unfortunate related news, another black transgender woman was murdered recently. I know they are trying hard to keep the focus on love and love alone but I feel like some sort of threat of physical violence would be the realistic backlash to Bill running the story and at the same time educate the audience as to what is happening to these women. There is also the added concern that there is a disproportionate amount of black transgender women murdered, (not to say that there is anything proportionate about any transgender woman being murdered) and since Maya identifies as black, it might behoove them to do more than touch on that issue since along with the growing social disturbances in America this is included among them.

 

Steffy knew that Aly was seeing Darla - as her mother did, IIRC.  That and the puritan clothes and bizarre outbursts should have clued her family in that she needed help.  (I don't think mentally ill people can distinguish when they need help.)

 

And yes, all this love and understanding for Maya post-disclosure is well and fine but in the real world, it's pretty ugly out here.  I think Nick may have alluded to safety at one point but I pretty much dismissed everything he said as straight out of a transgender FAQ.

[blackwing]

But truly, I'm done feeling bad for Aly, I have all the time in the world for sympathy for Thorne but Aly *shoulder shrug* never knew her, never cared to.

 

Agree about Aly.  She was on the show for less than 2 years.  I feel like Bradley never knew what to do with her.  Little girl Aly was very cute.  Grown up Aly was reintroduced as this ugly duckling living in the shadow of her oh so beautiful and unbelievably famous cousin Hope.  Then they did this swan story where she became a bit more attractive.  For a while it looked like she and Hope were going to be romantic rivals but that got shelved.  They had this brief "she's not really my cousin" line that I thought was going to lead to more rivalry.  But that pretty much went nowhere.

 

They paired her with Oliver, but that pretty much went nowhere.  They made her best friends with Ivy.  Then her role on the show became the disapproving Greek chorus.  Then Bradley suddenly decided to make her psycho.  She starts seeing Darla everywhere, and as Darla morphed into Roseanne Barr, Aly becomes crazier and crazier.  Then just as things could have gotten very interesting, she dies.

 

So in short, I don't feel bad for her at all because I think she was a poorly written character whose only purpose was to be a supporting player in the lead player's stories.  The way she morphed so suddenly from a nice innocent girl to a girl in love for the first time to a doormat to a psycho seemed just so disjointed.  It's like Bradley said "we need a psycho to make things more interesting because things are getting boring, let's see who it's going to be..... [throws dart], congrats Aly!"

 

I don't particularly feel bad for Thorne.  Granted, a lot of this is Bradley's fault because he shoves Thorne in the troll cave for 90% of the time.  But I don't recall where they said Aly had been all the time she was getting SORASed.  Was she in boarding school or did she just suddenly appear as if she's been in GC all the time like all of the other currently offscreen but in town people like Felicia and Donna?  Thorne is a crappy father.  He's been away from her life most of the time, and when she finally comes back to town, he leaves.  Also, how could he not know that she was having issues?  Did he never talk to her?  She was spouting her gibberish about "toooooo much sexxxaaaayyyyy" all the time.  If he had bothered to have a conversation with her, surely something would have come out.  He knew that she was still having issues with Taylor killing Darla.  They seemed to have resolved that but clearly he never talked to her otherwise he should have known something was wrong.

[Anna Yolei]

Honestly IMO as much as other people should have noticed her before, Aly is loaded and has tons of money for therapy and I'm pretty darn sure the last words out of her therapist's mouth would have been something along the lines of "If you ever see your mother's floating head again..." The onus was also on Aly to reach out to someone to seek professional counsel, she's been down the road before and it seemed to deepen as time progressed, she still had enough wherewithal to put her clothes on and not defecate on herself so that's enough wherewithal (at least in the beginning) to reach out to someone she trusts and say "I might be having some bad thoughts here". Granted the someone she trusts is the same idiot who sat there videotaping her trying to kill her cousin instead of doing something about it but all the same.  They all failed Aly in this situation but she also failed herself.

I get where you're coming from...but mental illness can be like every other illness where folks will ignore symptoms or push it off or in the case of my stepdad, feel completely weirded out by not being able to get pissed off by stupid shit no one cares about while on medication. On the other end, you've got my mom playing Dr. Phil to everyone in her life, then making excuses like "I'll be fine when I get a job" as a reason to not go to therapy.

I've also got a chick from the Navy for whom everyone has told her her in so many words that as much as her department sucked (and her coworkers were lazy ass pieces of shit), her behavior did not help her case. She's hard working and takes pride in her work, but I've hung out with her on my off-time and she'll spend the whole time bitching about work. I don't know her husband's name, and I've known her over two years. That's not normal, but everything goes through one ear and out the other.

Sadly with mental illnesses, like addiction, short of nearly killing themselves there's little outsiders can do unless they themselves see that they need it, regardless of how many times they've been the therapy before or what medications they've taken. Soaps have been notoriously shit in their deciption of things like bipolar disorder. :/

[Joimiaroxeu]

this board tends to be a lot more anti-about the storylines then twitter does frankly.

There are other places in the soap discussion universe besides this board and Twitter. Pretty much every place I've seen viewers discussing the Maya situation are not happy with the way she's being propped at the expense of a legacy character and made to look like she is utterly without sin. And in my experience with TV-show related Twitter, the tweeters tend to be more positive because they know their tweets are likely to be seen (and possibly followed and/or retweeted) by the actors and the showrunners. I am confident that there are people associated with TV shows who follow the discussion forums like this one but unless they do it anonymously they don't tend to get involved. I know of several actors who've gotten into some trouble getting personally, negatively, and defensively engaged online with discussion board posters.

 

As far as Aly is concerned, I don't like blaming the victim. I'm sure if she'd been capable of helping herself and resolving her own emotional pain she would have. Maya and Rick were perfectly capable of not abusing her and using her vulnerability against her and yet they chose to do it anyway. AFAIC, they will always deserve to be shamed for their treatment of Aly. The show apparently wants us to give Maya a pass because she's had a rough go of it on the road to coming out as transgendered and achieving what I guess we're to assume is a transgendered woman's greatest dream: marrying a rich guy. It doesn't work for me and as best as I can tell, it doesn't work for most of the posters talking about it on discussion boards.

[slayer2]

 

And in my experience with TV-show related Twitter, the tweeters tend to be more positive because they know their tweets are likely to be seen (and possibly followed and/or retweeted) by the actors and the showrunners.

 

You clearly haven't met Delenas or any fans of the CW network. No statement could be further from the truth.

 

 

The show apparently wants us to give Maya a pass because she's had a rough go of it on the road to coming out as transgendered and achieving what I guess we're to assume is a transgendered woman's greatest dream: marrying a rich guy.

 

I'm not seeing this in any way whatsoever given what they are showing me. The narrative I'm following has less to do with her marrying a rich guy and more to do with her marrying Rick. Julius seems excited that he's rich but that seems to be par for the course for every black character who appears on the show in the interim exception given only to Dayzee and Jasmine (I believe) who was played by Lark Voohries. 

We'll have to agree to vehemently disagree.

 

 

Steffy knew that Aly was seeing Darla - as her mother did, IIRC.  That and the puritan clothes and bizarre outbursts should have clued her family in that she needed help.  (I don't think mentally ill people can distinguish when they need help.)

 

I feel like it depends on the situation. Quinn seemed able to distinguish when she had crossed a line and she began to question her sanity, unfortunately that lead to Bill trying to talk her off a ledge but...par for the course with that guy. Aly seemed to be fighting the urge to kill her cousin (wow) and in those moments I would opine it might have been a good idea to call her therapist, also in those moments I would opine that any good therapist would have given her different steps to take when she was triggered to identify when things were getting a bit worse and give her a call. It's not as though she/he (therapist) would have simply let go of her hand and sent her on her way without any proactive advice for the future or steps to take when she was feeling the same way again. Unless of course Aly's therapist is from the same school of therapists that Taylor is from, in which case...fuck it. She was doomed.

 

 

And yes, all this love and understanding for Maya post-disclosure is well and fine but in the real world, it's pretty ugly out here.  I think Nick may have alluded to safety at one point but I pretty much dismissed everything he said as straight out of a transgender FAQ.

 

I commend the show on what they are attempting to do but I feel like they really need to get their hands dirty if they want to drive home how dangerous things are, especially since the transgender character they have chosen is black and it is such an ongoing tragedy. I believe it's been something like 12 transgender women murdered already this year already.  :(

Edited August 10, 2015 by slayer2

[tessaray]

They like her fine on twitter (myself included) there are haters but there are a lot of lovers as well. I find this board tends to be a lot more anti-about the storylines than twitter does frankly.

 

 

I appreciate that this board focuses more on the story (both pro and con) than the actors (for the most part).  Twitter is useless for any kind of in-depth discussion.  NGL, there are people on Twitter and other forums that make Aly look sane. 

[bannana]

I think the Maya propping that is going on now is just the same as the Maya trashing that went on a while back when she was trying to steal Rick back from Caroline because she just wanted to be a Forrester.  Both Maya and Caroline give me whiplash with the way their personalities swing from one extreme to the other.

 

As for Aly, the people who were closest to her, not Rick and Maya, should  have seen the warning signs.  She had a boyfriend, FFS!  He didn't notice that she suddenly was dressing like Piper Laurie in Carrie?  Where was her grandfather?  Her uncle Ridge?  How about her good friend and aunt Pam?

 

Rick acted horribly toward Aly.  That's why Ivy should have acted and had the two of them move out into their own place. How did Ivy not act on what she saw was going on?  Aly had a lot of people around her who really did nothing even though her business interactions, and the way she dressed, had changed profoundly.  I don't think we can blame Rick or Maya for Aly's mental deterioration.  It just happened because she has mental issues.  But all the people who missed the cues, especially those closest (or who should be closest) to her, should have some responsibility.

 

I think the Julius stuff is realistic too.  And if Maya confronts him in front of all those people, she will be humiliating him which is the worst thing she could do.  Sometimes you just have to suck it up, and while Maya is upset, she should either have never included him at the wedding, or just grin and bear it, because this will only end badly (except we know it won't because they will have Julius have an epiphany and be totally cool with everything!).

[slayer2]

I appreciate that this board focuses more on the story (both pro and con) than the actors (for the most part).  Twitter is useless for any kind of in-depth discussion.  NGL, there are people on Twitter and other forums that make Aly look sane. 

 

Heh! I read your NGL as Nancy Lee Grahn for a second heh! A very vocal tweeter indeed! But yes, twitter can make Aly look very very sane.

 

 

I think the Maya propping that is going on now is just the same as the Maya trashing that went on a while back when she was trying to steal Rick back from Caroline because she just wanted to be a Forrester.  Both Maya and Caroline give me whiplash with the way their personalities swing from one extreme to the other.

 

Agreed. I've just been doing as a poster suggested (I've forgotten whom, my apologies) and going with whatever the flow of the story is. It affords me the opportunity (currently) to enjoy my Raya, appreciate Caroline, tolerate Ridge, dislike Ivy while appreciating Ivy and Wyatt, dislike Bill while enjoying Batie, adore Eric, appreciate Brooke, squeal at ZenCole's cuteness and happily sigh at DeaQuinn. It's soooo much more enjoyable watching the show this way.

Edited August 10, 2015 by slayer2

[Gudzilla]

I couldn't stop staring at KM's neck today it was contorting in all kinds of painful looking ways. I was worried she was going to pop a vein. 

 

 

I hope Bridget mentions where Whip is.

Why? I don't think she was ever with him? Whip was with Taylor the last time he was on the show, she started going back to Ridge and Whip just kind of disappeared.

Whip was part of the Marone crowd so I figured she might know.  I also happen to have a weird fascination with people who just disappear from this show. (The only time I found Taylor interesting was when she wandered off in her pajamas for months.) (Even though it was literal I don't count Hope's ascension in this category.)

[slayer2]

 

As if $Bill begging Maya's forgiveness for his behavior wasn't bad enough

 

He should have been begging her forgiveness. What he did was reprehensible and incredibly dangerous, he put her life at incredible risk and publicly shamed and humiliated her although KM is doing more to reflect that in her acting than the show is in the writing lately but there it is. You may not like Maya but it stands to reason (or I certainly hope it does) that no woman should be treated in that way nor put in that precarious position irrespective of her personality.

Edited August 10, 2015 by slayer2