Love in the Time of Walkers: Relationships in The Walking Dead

[Pete Martell]

I was reading some of Melissa McBride's interviews and in one, when she's asked how Tobin and Carol affect Daryl and Carol and their fans, she says she's not going to answer that. And it made me a little sad, because she used to be very open on that subject, but I don't think she or Norman ever will be again after some of the fan ugliness in seasons 4 and 5.

 

I saw some people saying things like, "She should have those scenes with Daryl, not Tobin," "She should be kissing Daryl, not Tobin," but I actually thought the show got across that Tobin was not a new soulmate or ideal for her, but rather someone she can pretend with, get away from herself and her inner demons with. He knows she's tough, but he doesn't really know her. No one knows her, but Daryl is among those who come closest, and she can't do any of this with him. 

 

I tend to wonder if that's one of the reasons they barely interact now, because she would fall apart with him.

 

Either way, I'm glad they risked the fan backlash and allowed her an escape with Tobin. It was never going to be anything more (I wouldn't be surprised if he's dead in a few episodes or just fades into the background), and it allowed us to see another side of her character, along with the silly montage at the start.

[nodorothyparker]

Carol doesn't have the baggage with Tobin that she has with Daryl or anyone else in the group or even Morgan at this point.  I think that matters.  I think there's something comfortable there she's choosing in the same way she chose the goofy comfortable cardigan rather than the grayer killing clothes she's mostly been sporting these last couple of seasons.  

 

It doesn't have to be TRULUV 4EVA.  He may find the things she can do terrifying but he gets that it comes from a place of wanting to protect everyone, to mother.  That seems to be enough for her at the moment.

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

I saw some people saying things like, "She should have those scenes with Daryl, not Tobin," "She should be kissing Daryl, not Tobin," but I actually thought the show got across that Tobin was not a new soulmate or ideal for her, but rather someone she can pretend with, get away from herself and her inner demons with.

 

I recall Carol semi-flirting with Daryl, like the "going  down" bit, "Pookie", the smiles, the shoulder bumps etc. He never reacted beyond smirking and tittering like a schoolboy hearing his first dirty joke. They spent the night on that bunk in the women's shelter and he never looked at her, let alone touched her. Either he has never seen her in that way, or if he has, he doesn't have the balls to do anything about it. Tobin seems like a nice, normal human being who is warm and affectionate to her and I think she feels good when she's talking to him.

Edited March 7, 2016 by AngelaHunter

[nodorothyparker]

At least Tobin appears to bathe regularly.  Can't underestimate that as a selling point either.

[Ocean Chick]

Tobin, as I said in the episode thread, has all the stunning good looks and vibrant personality of boiled white rice.  And his shirt is a nice crimson shade.  He's a self admitted weenie who was willing to leave a woman to be eaten by walkers, and who can't bring himself to go with the others to protect their community.  He's going to hide back with the women and children.  My new name for him is Weenie Man.  He's the new FPP.  Carol deserves better.  Just like Rosita deserves better.  I hope Weenie Man bites it soon. 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

The craziness from some of the Caryl fandom poisoned the well IMHO.

Harrassing them on Social Media, especially Norman.

If he posted pics of him with any other WD female castmember, they would cuss him out on twitter/IG.

As I recall, he made his Twitter private for a while a few yrs back.

My theory, Gimple was willing to go there, but both actors declined.

[Eyes High]

The craziness from some of the Caryl fandom poisoned the well IMHO.

Harrassing them on Social Media, especially Norman.

If he posted pics of him with any other WD female castmember, they would cuss him out on twitter/IG.

As I recall, he made his Twitter private for a while a few yrs back.

My theory, Gimple was willing to go there, but both actors declined.

 

It did seem as if the Carol/Daryl relationship was being emphasized a lot in previous seasons and that that relationship has pretty much evaporated in Season 6, which is probably why the shippers are crying foul. To my eye at least, it was all plausibly platonic, and there was nothing sexual about it except for a few joking (or "joking") innuendos from Carol that Daryl blew off. Still, any seasoned shipper will tell you that meaningful one-on-one interactions of the kind Carol and Daryl had (Daryl angsting over whether or not Carol is dead, Daryl and Carol's teary hug, Carol reaching for Daryl's hand in the van, etc. etc.) are the bread and butter of any ship.

 

As of Season 6, though, Carol and Daryl have had no one-on-one interaction, so the writers seem to have switched gears from Carol and Daryl's previously very close platonic relationship. Whether it was because the writers had some sort of plan for romantic Caryl down the road but changed their mind because they changed their plans for the characters, or whether they never had a plan to get the characters together but got tired of shipper nonsense insisting that Caryl become canon so effectively separated the characters to shut them up, we may never know.

[editorgrrl]

Tobin, as I said in the episode thread, has all the stunning good looks and vibrant personality of boiled white rice.

Tobin looks like Ed Peletier, Carol's late husband. I guess she has a type. But he's emotionally different than Ed, and Carol's comfortable enough with Tobin to bust his balls (take the piss).

[Eyes High]

Tobin looks like Ed Peletier, Carol's late husband. I guess she has a type. But he's emotionally different than Ed, and Carol's comfortable enough with Tobin to bust his balls (take the piss).

 

One could also read Carol giving Tobin some shit (calling him an asshole, etc.) as her testing him to see how he reacts and seeing whether he had an Ed-like temper. Tobin taking the insults as good-natured teasing without getting his nose out of joint probably put Carol's mind at ease about what kind of guy he was.

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

Harrassing them on Social Media, especially Norman.

If he posted pics of him with any other WD female castmember, they would cuss him out on twitter/IG.

 

I never really realized how nutty and pathetic fans can be and what celebrities of all types have to endure and the price they pay for their fame. People who behave this way - or  even think this way - might want to consider getting a mental health checkup.

 

Tobin, as I said in the episode thread, has all the stunning good looks and vibrant personality of boiled white rice.

 

After going through unimaginable terror, stress, and enough trauma to give G.I. Joe PTSD, "boiled white  rice" might look pretty darned good.

 

Tobin looks like Ed Peletier, Carol's late husband. I guess she has a type.

 

Don't we all?;>)

Edited March 7, 2016 by AngelaHunter

[Irishmaple]

I like Carol with Tobin. He adapted to life in Rick's Alexandria as well as anyone else. He stepped up to help with the wall and he came out to help the night of the zombie massacre. He'll never be a badass but, as long as he contributes, I can live with him.

I like him for Carol because he's someone she knows cannot physically harm her. She is more of a threat to him than he is to her. After being abused by Ed, exiled by Rick and threatened by the presence of men like The Governor and Gareth, it must be refreshing as hell for her to be able to relax with a guy who reciprocates her interest.

I even like that he's found a way to rationalize her damage into something he can understand. Carol is seriously messed up but she usually acts for what she considers the good of the community. If Tobin wants to consider that mothering, good for him. And Carol.

[nodorothyparker]

I would imagine nice and nonthreatening probably feels like something she can safely handle in her first canon dip back into coupling after years of the shitshow that was her marriage to Ed.  The fact that she's clearly tougher than he is and he openly acknowledges that without being threatened or horrified by it probably also has a certain appeal.

Edited March 7, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[GodsBeloved]

Carol didn't walk into the ZA all big and bad. She was a big behind whimp even by normal world standards. Tobin hasn't seen/been through the things Carol has. It seems he has been sheltered from just how rough it is out here so its understandable that he isn't Carol "tough".

Edited March 7, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[Caelicola]

I know I'm showing up late to the party, but I can't even put into words how thilled I am at the Rick/Michonne pairing. I just think the actors have a lovely, natural chemistry of equals, and so much mutual respect that it truly shines through their performances.

I wasn't gonna hope for it, really, because the dark-skinned black lady is so rarely the love interest for the white protagonist that, given the show's track record with race issues, it seemed too good to be true. And I tried, I swear I tried really really hard to like Jessie, because I want to see as many women as possible on tv, but both the writing for her and the performances around her stayed so bland and lightweight that nothing about her or her storyline (or even her demise, really) ever pushed me beyond a meh.

But it happened! And I'm beyond happy about it! I like Glenn and Maggie, but I almost like them more separately than together, so this is the first actual couple that I actively ship. And that terrifies me, because this show pisses on everything I love, usually, but at the same time maaaaybe these two characters are possibly (and I know I'm jinxing it, I just know it) a little bit safe? At least compared to the others? Man, I needed something to get invested in again, because season 6A has been a real struggle, and this is just it. They're lovely (and hot, let's be honest here, they're both pretty scorching), and they make so much sense.

Gah. Gushing over.

 

Moving on to more recent entanglements, I hate with the fire of a thousand suns the whole Abraham-Rosita-Sasha situation, mostly because I can't understand why either of these ladies would be into Abraham, and it's been done -so far, at least- in a very pedestrian, soap opera-ish way; I don't care about love triangles that are just borne out of a man being a dick. I don't really care about love triangles in general. And I love Sasha, and Sonequa is a great actor, and she's being dragged down by this whole storyline. Now I'm bored every time she's on screen, because every time she's on screen it's for Abrahamish purposes.

On the other hand, I don't mind the Carol-Tobin smooch, because he was really nice to her. That's it, really, that's his whole character. He was kind to her, and attracted to her, and that's enough for now. He's probably gonna die, because Carol can't have nice things.

[kj4ever]

Carol didn't walk into the ZA all big and bad. She was a big behind whimp even by normal world standards. Tobin hasn't seen/been through the things Carol has. It seems he has been sheltered from just how rough it is out here so its understandable that he isn't Carol "tough".

For sure.  Carol didn't even have basic instincts back then.  She just laid under a car while her daughter was chased by monsters.  9 out of 10 Mother's would have elbowed Lori in the damn face and been off after their kid.  It always cracks me up when people talk like she's always been this fighting machine and yeah, if she was her kid wouldn't be dead.

 

To that degree though I think Tobin makes perfect sense for Carol.  I don't think she'd ever go back to someone that could take power from her again.  She's been through to much and has changed so much.

[LeeMoon]

I loved Tobin and Carol. Carol has never had that in her life, a supporting and respectful partner. I hope their relationship continues.

 

Daryl could never be her equal partner on an emotional level. She would have been pushed into the mother role or something akin to the protagonist in Outlander if anyone watched that and knows what I'm talking about. Tobin might not be a great fighter physically, but he an adult with, I assume, previous experience in relationships and a good heart.

 

Love was a theme this episode, with Jesus telling Tara that if she meant it that she loved Denise, then she knew what she was fighting for. Carol lost her child and kept going as a protector of the group. She closed herself off to other people. It's love she was missing and what she found again this episode. She refused to give Sam cookies in the past and her baking them was part of an act. Now I think she genuinely wanted to make people happy.

[RedheadZombie]

Yeah, that's my read too. I can't imagine that anyone with Denise's energy was a part of or a guest at the Dixon house often if at all. He's not so demonstrative and he probably finds her perfectly nice but overwhelming.

 

Daryl has always pushed back when concern was shown, especially by a woman.  Back on the farm, when Carol asked Daryl to stop looking for Sophia because it was dangerous and he was just as important as everyone else, he lashed out and blamed her for Sophia being missing, and called her a stupid bitch.  Denise has experienced a much more evolved Daryl, but he's still Daryl.

 

This. I recently went back and watched '4x16'. Michonne watching Rick as they were walking to Terminus after the horrific events of the night before, said it all. She wasn't watching him because she thought he was a monster but because she saw with her own eyes (and heard when he was talking to Darryl about what happened) that his children are his life and that he would do whatever it takes, even the unthinkable, to keep them safe. I think this moved her deeply and strengthened what she was beginning to feel for him.

 

This is a very sweet interpretation of that scene, but that's not how I saw it.  Michonne wasn't watching him because she was afraid, or because she was moved deeply.  I think she was watching him because he'd just lost his mind, and everyone was a little unsure of what he'd do next.  Kind of the same way she just knocked him unconscious when he was raving like a lunatic at Alexandria.  She's very practical that way.

[RedheadZombie]

The craziness from some of the Caryl fandom poisoned the well IMHO.Harrassing them on Social Media, especially Norman.If he posted pics of him with any other WD female castmember, they would cuss him out on twitter/IG.As I recall, he made his Twitter private for a while a few yrs back.My theory, Gimple was willing to go there, but both actors declined.

I think MMB suffered much more than Norman. It even got ugly here when Beth's fans would talk about Carol as an old hag who was far too old for Daryl, even though the actors are only three years apart. At least Norman had some fun with the whole thing. In fact I think he egged it on until he realized it went too far. It seems like the writers are too gutless to even portray a friendship now. It's sad.

[Ocean Chick]

To that degree though I think Tobin makes perfect sense for Carol.  I don't think she'd ever go back to someone that could take power from her again.  She's been through to much and has changed so much.

 

Carol has found her voice and her strength.  There is no man made that can take power from her again.  He'd have to kill her in order to do that.  So she doesn't need to be attached to a weak sister in order to have a good relationship.  She told Rick, back when they were picking tomatoes during "Indifference" that "she didn't know she could be strong.  She didn't know she already was."  Well, she knows now, and God help the man who tries to act like Ed around her.  Just remember how she reacted to Punching Pete - she stood up to him and he folded like cheap origami.  She's just having a moment when she wants the world to go back to how it was, when trying to decide what to cook for dinner was the hardest decision to make.  And that's what makes Tobin a nice safe target to flirt with - he's part of that world.  And that's why he's a red shirt - I don't think he's going to have time to change before it all comes down.

[Enero]

This is a very sweet interpretation of that scene, but that's not how I saw it. Michonne wasn't watching him because she was afraid, or because she was moved deeply. I think she was watching him because he'd just lost his mind, and everyone was a little unsure of what he'd do next. Kind of the same way she just knocked him unconscious when he was raving like a lunatic at Alexandria. She's very practical that way.

I respectfully disagree. She heard his conversation with Darryl where he acknowledged he might've gone too far and was clearly affected by what he'd done. By the time they were walking to Terminus the "losing his mind" moment had passed. Furthermore, if she was worried about him "losing his mind" again she would've said so when he asked. Michonne has never been one to bite her tongue. I standby my interpretation. Though insane, what Rick did was a turning point IMO with regards to her feelings toward him mainly due to the horrors she suffered due to the father of her own child NOT doing anything, even the unthinkable, to protect him.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Enero

[AngelaHunter]

It even got ugly here when Beth's fans would talk about Carol as an old hag who was far too old for Daryl

 

Damn, but that annoyed me. It's great to have Daryl and Beth gettin' it on, when she was a teenager and he's old enough to be her father. Carol, who is a few years old than he, is a "mother figure." WTF? It's so disappointing that in 2016, the archaic double standard is alive and well and we see it time and again. Women over 40 aren't supposed to be sexual beings. They should just bake cookies. I try to tell myself it must be the very young who feel this way, but I think if I knew the statistics, I'd be disappointed again.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Damn, but that annoyed me. It's great to have Daryl and Beth gettin' it on, when she was a teenager and he's old enough to be her father. Carol, who is a few years old than he, is a "mother figure." WTF? It's so disappointing that in 2016, the archaic double standard is alive and well and we see it time and again. Women over 40 aren't supposed to be sexual beings. They should just bake cookies. I try to tell myself it must be the very young who feel this way, but I think if I knew the statistics, I'd be disappointed again.

 

What?  Who doesn't love a cougar?  (except I'm a couple years away from 40 myself, so 'age-related sexual beings' might a more fitting term in this case)

[AngelaHunter]

What?  Who doesn't love a cougar?

 

Don't get me started. Imagine, or TRY to imagine the outcry if someone like Carol were to be romantically paired with an 18 year old boy? Unthinkable and unimaginable, even though that's just what it would have been in reverse with Beth and Daryl. The only time we see that is yes, cougars on "Lifetime" or such movies, and the cougar is doing something evil and wrong and must be punished, unlike in movies where men often have wives and girlfriends so young that the men look like child molesters and no one bats an eye.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Don't get me started. Imagine, or TRY to imagine the outcry if someone like Carol were to be romantically paired with an 18 year old boy? Unthinkable and unimaginable, even though that's just what it would have been in reverse with Beth and Daryl. The only time we see that is yes, cougars on "Lifetime" or such movies, and the cougar is doing something evil and wrong and must be punished, unlike in movies where men often have wives and girlfriends so young that the men look like child molesters and no one bats an eye.

 

I agree with what your view about the general public's reaction to such a thing would be, but I guess I'm wired different.  As long as the participants are of legal age and willing participants, I got no beef.  ("love knows no boundaries"/"age is just a number")  I only disagree with pairings/ships when I don't think the two people should really be together based on characteristics and/or the two seem better off as friends or some other type of acquaintance.

[Nashville]

Carol doesn't have the baggage with Tobin that she has with Daryl or anyone else in the group or even Morgan at this point.  I think that matters.  I think there's something comfortable there she's choosing in the same way she chose the goofy comfortable cardigan rather than the grayer killing clothes she's mostly been sporting these last couple of seasons.  

 

It doesn't have to be TRULUV 4EVA.  He may find the things she can do terrifying but he gets that it comes from a place of wanting to protect everyone, to mother.  That seems to be enough for her at the moment.

  

One could also read Carol giving Tobin some shit (calling him an asshole, etc.) as her testing him to see how he reacts and seeing whether he had an Ed-like temper. Tobin taking the insults as good-natured teasing without getting his nose out of joint probably put Carol's mind at ease about what kind of guy he was.

  

I would imagine nice and nonthreatening probably feels like something she can safely handle in her first canon dip back into coupling after years of the shitshow that was her marriage to Ed.  The fact that she's clearly tougher than he is and he openly acknowledges that without being threatened or horrified by it probably also has a certain appeal.

All that - plus, dude has big hands.

C'mon, peoples.

Carol is at least as deserving of a little I&I downtime as Ricky&Mishy. :>

[piequinn35]

When do we see Daryl smooching someone? :)

[Pete Martell]

When do we see Daryl smooching someone? :)

 

Daryl will storm over to Carol and Tobin, fuming with jealousy...and grab Tobin for a passionate kiss. 

[Nashville]

Daryl will storm over to Carol and Tobin, fuming with jealousy...and grab Tobin for a passionate kiss.

I was thinking more along the lines of a Daryl/Aaron/Eric "Three's Company" motif.

Maybe Tobin could be Mr. Roper...?

[AngelaHunter]

Daryl will storm over to Carol and Tobin, fuming with jealousy...and grab Tobin for a passionate kiss.

 

I'll stop reading fanfiction if you will.

[Pete Martell]

I'll stop reading fanfiction if you will.

 

I think fan fiction is currently writing about Jesus giving Daryl his sexual awakening.

[Caelicola]

I ship Daryl/shower like burning, is anyone writing fanfiction about them?

[neptunewaves]

I must be hanging in the wrong corners of fandom then, because I've seen such as much vitriol directed at the cast/showrunners from the Rick/Michonne collective, yet here we are.

 

I miss their friendship, if that was all there ever was to it (funny thing, the best thing about it is that they could have easily made it sexual or romantic without altering their dynamic one bit) and I think it's a bit disingenuous for them to drop it like a hot potatoe overnight and expect the audience not to notice/care. Heck, it felt weird not to get a reaction shot from Daryl at the end of this week's episode.

[kia112]

I must be hanging in the wrong corners of fandom then, because I've seen such as much vitriol directed at the cast/showrunners from the Rick/Michonne collective, yet here we are.

 

I miss their friendship, if that was all there ever was to it (funny thing, the best thing about it is that they could have easily made it sexual or romantic without altering their dynamic one bit) and I think it's a bit disingenuous for them to drop it like a hot potatoe overnight and expect the audience not to notice/care. Heck, it felt weird not to get a reaction shot from Daryl at the end of this week's episode.

 

Drop what? The friendship or the relationship? In my eyes, I don't think anything dropped in favor of the other. The only thing Rick and Michonne have done since they discovered their romantic feelings for each other that they wouldn't have done before is hold hands for 10 seconds and engage in brief back touching as they walked away from each other. And Michonne probably wouldn't have thrown that woman to the ground before, either. In this episode, no one had time for anything except for murdering. 

[mandolin]

Drop what? The friendship or the relationship? In my eyes, I don't think anything dropped in favor of the other. The only thing Rick and Michonne have done since they discovered their romantic feelings for each other that they wouldn't have done before is hold hands for 10 seconds and engage in brief back touching as they walked away from each other. And Michonne probably wouldn't have thrown that woman to the ground before, either. In this episode, no one had time for anything except for murdering.

I think the previous poster was referring to Daryl/Carol in the second paragraph. At least that is how I read it.

[Timetoread]

Yeah. It's like when Rick's would-be squeeze gets ripped to shreds I could hear Doc Holliday from "Tombstone" saying, "Well, that was a bust." Time to move on.

 

I am confused by the fandom's insistence that there should be some sort of collective moment of silence over the death of Jessie.  Rick did not know that woman.  He just met her, thought she was hot, and they kissed.  This was not some great love for the ages.  He had no real functional relationship with her or her sons, nor did she with his kids - other than babysitting Judith at Carol's bequest.  I am more in mourning over Noah than Jessie.

 

I simply don't get this heartfelt belief that Michonne has to take backseat to Jessie.  Why?  Because Jessie was blonde and pretty and therefore more worthy of love and attention from the opposite sex?  Why assign so much gravity to the two weeks of unconsummated lust she and Rick had but then say that Richonne came out of nowhere, even though they have been friends and roomates for three freaking seasons and Rick's kids are - unbeknownst to him even, assigning her the role of their mother.  If Jessie spent three seasons with Rick and raising Carl as her own I guess we'd want him to jump in the grave with her.

 

I am trying to be diplomatic but I just can't shake this dread and revulsion at what seems to be a widely held belief that Michonne is not woman enough for Rick and is wholly inferior to any white woman who shares two minutes of screen time with Rick.  That Michonne is a thing, a tool, a helper, a nanny, an attack dog, but not a real woman and completely inappropriate as a love interest.

[Pete Martell]

I must be hanging in the wrong corners of fandom then, because I've seen such as much vitriol directed at the cast/showrunners from the Rick/Michonne collective, yet here we are.

 

I miss their friendship, if that was all there ever was to it (funny thing, the best thing about it is that they could have easily made it sexual or romantic without altering their dynamic one bit) and I think it's a bit disingenuous for them to drop it like a hot potatoe overnight and expect the audience not to notice/care. Heck, it felt weird not to get a reaction shot from Daryl at the end of this week's episode.

 

There are many fans who keep it calm and together on social media, and it's easy to forget that sometimes, because the worst always get the most notice. There are also terrible fans in any fan group. It's not fair of me to suggest 98% of anyone who like the Carol and Daryl relationship are anything but fine. It's just that the 2% who weren't are, I think, the reason Norman and Melissa have changed their tone over the last few seasons, on social media or in interviews, about the Carol and Daryl relationship. I don't believe that the show has stopped having them interact for that reason - I think the main reason is because they've wanted to push Carol to the breaking point psychologically - but I do think some of the worst has had a chilling effect overall. 

 

It's hard for me to say about Carol and Daryl, because it's been a long time since I've seen Daryl have a spark toward anyone. I never saw it with Beth, the way many did. I saw flickers with Carol years and years ago, and after Lori died if Rick and Daryl had fallen into a relationship I would have probably bought it pretty easily, but that's about it. And I get the feeling Norman really wanted a Michonne/Daryl pairing (which I'm glad they didn't do as I still remember some of the racist comments thrown her way when that was even hinted...), so he played that up a bit oncamera in season 4, but I felt like that was Norman flirting more than Daryl flirting, if that makes any sense. Overall, I just don't see Daryl as a sexual or romantic character. I also feel like Carol has changed so much in the last 3 seasons, and in some ways, left Daryl behind, because Daryl mostly stopped being a character at the end of season 3. I still think they are capable of good scenes together - they had some wonderful scenes together in "Consumed" last season, but a large part of the Carol that Daryl knew is gone, and on some level I think he knows that. So the fans who want to see a kiss and want to see Daryl jealous and so forth - I think they are watching characters who are no longer those people.

 

I guess that's one of the reasons I'm glad they had the brief scene with Carol and Tobin, because it was some sort of sacred cow that Carol should never look at anyone but Daryl. It was obvious that she had no real feelings for Tobin, that this was not a great love, and it mostly just underscored her loneliness and identity crisis in a way that baking cookies was not going to do. And even that got a lot of, "She should be doing this with Daryl," when the whole point, for me anyway, was that she could ONLY do this with someone she did not strongly care about. I suppose if she'd had more scenes with Daryl this season, there would have been less pushback, but then some may have just said the show was "baiting" them, so I can see where the show might have had no idea how to handle it. 

 

In a way it's not fair, per se, to their fans to have Daryl and Carol interact so sporadically, but I do think the show still cares about their relationship, and I think Norman and Melissa do too. But the relationship they may see and the relationship that some fans, and Chris Hardwick, and so on, see - I don't think they're the same anymore, if they ever were. And Melissa having to basically shut that type of question down in an interview a few days ago because she didn't want that achingly beautiful little scene with Tobin to become about Caryl - I felt for her, because she put so much work into that type of moment and the focus in many quarters ends up on being something that has absolutely nothing to do with any of it.

[Timetoread]

Tobin, as I said in the episode thread, has all the stunning good looks and vibrant personality of boiled white rice.  And his shirt is a nice crimson shade.  He's a self admitted weenie who was willing to leave a woman to be eaten by walkers, and who can't bring himself to go with the others to protect their community.  He's going to hide back with the women and children.  My new name for him is Weenie Man.  He's the new FPP.  Carol deserves better.  Just like Rosita deserves better.  I hope Weenie Man bites it soon. 

 

I guess I'll stand alone and admit that I have always liked Tobin and I don't find him unattractive at all. He's nobody's hunk or alpha warrior like Rick and company, but I do think he's decent.  He didn't help that woman because most of them believed that once a zombie is within arm's distance, it's over.  But he also had the balls to recognize what Abraham did and gave props to Deanna.

 

And if I could, I'd write this in small type, and as it is I'm about to run:  I'd date Tobin.

 

ETA: Because English is good when used correctly.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Timetoread

[jsbt]

To his credit, according to a clip dug up recently Norman Reedus was either the first or among the first to say live on-air (on Talking Dead) that he saw the chemistry between Rick and Michonne in Season 3. So that was cool.

 

I don't think Tobin and Carol necessarily mean nothing. I think they can be developed into something more lasting, but they'd have to give a lot more time over to developing that particular character unless it's a transitional thing leading to someone else. If not, I think it would be pointless for Carol to fall for the guy, have him get wasted and then she's back to being the lonely spinster cliche who cannot find solace in any aspect of her ongoing life, because unless they plan to write her out that's a dead end - we've had a few years of Carol the hardened badass, she's starting to find a medium ground and I think that's healthy for the character.

Edited March 9, 2016 by jsbt

[Pete Martell]

I guess I'll stand alone and admit that I have always liked Tobin and I don't find him unattractive at all. He's nobody's hunk or alpha warrior like Rick and company, but I do think he's decent.  He didn't help that woman because most of them believed that once a zombies within arm's distance, it's over.  But he also had the balls to recognize what Abraham did and give props to Deanna.

 

And if I could, I'd write this in small type, and as it is I'm about to run:  I'd date Tobin.

 

I've thought he was a handsome guy from the first time we saw him. He's a bit of a non-character, as most of Alexandria is, but he seems to be a decent person (and aware of his flaws). I think he was the right person to have those scenes with, because they were about Carol, they weren't about him. Yet he wasn't such a cipher that it would be like her flirting with a complete random. 

To his credit, according to a clip dug up recently Norman Reedus was either the first or among the first to say live on-air (on Talking Dead) that he saw the chemistry between Rick and Michonne in Season 3. So that was cool.

 

I don't think Tobin and Carol necessarily mean nothing. I think they can be developed into something more lasting, but they'd have to give a lot more time over to developing that particular character unless it's a transitional thing leading to someone else. If not, I think it would be pointless for Carol to fall for the guy, have him get wasted and then she's back to being the lonely spinster cliche who cannot find solace in any aspect of her ongoing life, because unless they plan to write her out that's a dead end - we've had a few years of Carol the hardened badass, she's starting to find a medium ground and I think that's healthy for the character.

 

I'd forgotten about that. Kudos to Norman.

 

I feel like the Carol and Tobin stuff was a different way to show her coping mechanisms as well as a possible reminder that she's still a sexual being. I liked the line when he said most saw her as a mother, and she asked if he did too, and he said no. That sort of showed the different sides to her. I don't know if it means they will give her any more of a romantic or sexual side or if it was just about opening up the character for this episode, but if they did have a bit more with Tobin, I wouldn't be bothered by it. 

[jsbt]

In fairness I think Tara, Rosita, Eugene, etc etc. were all non-people at first too. (And Abraham and Gabriel were complete cartoons early on.) I don't think anybody anticipated Sasha blossoming the way she did and I never thought Tara would hang around from the Governor arc. I think the beauty of the show's setup/Mobius loop storytelling and relentless kill ratio is that eventually everyone new gets fleshed out to some degree and becomes part of the firmament as others fall away, at least for a time. There is a turnover rate that allows for everyone to shine even in a minor way. Denise already belongs AFAIC, Tobin is growing on me. Spencer, he's hot but eh, he can go. I would've liked Deanna to live longer because I love Tovah Feldshuh.

Edited March 9, 2016 by jsbt

[Pete Martell]

In fairness I think Tara, Rosita, Eugene, etc etc. were all non-people at first too. (And Abraham and Gabriel were complete cartoons early on.) I don't think anybody anticipated Sasha blossoming the way she did and I never thought Tara would hang around from the Governor arc. I think the beauty of the show's setup/Mobius loop storytelling and relentless kill ratio is that eventually everyone new gets fleshed out to some degree and becomes part of the firmament as others fall away, at least for a time. There is a turnover rate that allows for everyone to shine even in a minor way. Denise already belongs AFAIC, Tobin is growing on me. Spencer, he's hot but eh, he can go. I would've liked Deanna to live longer because I love Tovah Feldshuh.

 

True. I think with large groups of new characters I just tend to associate one or two people as moving on, and the rest being treated as fodder. It's not as extreme as it used to be, like when they just slaughtered everyone from Woodbury (even putting a dozen people in a bus to be devoured to finish off the rest), because narratively it was easier.

 

I guess it depends on the actor or their chemistry with other actors, or in other cases, if they have a pre-set role. In the case of Alexandria last season, the main faces were Jessie, Deanna and Aaron, pre-set roles. Now Denise is sort of in that role. There are a lot of pieces that are more vague - for instance, I'd love to see more of Eric, but it feels like after his initial purpose was served (humanizing Aaron, showing that TWD can have gay relationships beyond the brief thing with Tara and that woman in the Governor's camp), they've had no real use for him. I do hope that changes though.

 

These incidental characters who may or may not become more, like Sasha or Tara, are one of the main reasons I stay interested in the show. The show was a lot more rigid about a handful of characters and never allowing anyone else to grow in the first three seasons.

[nodorothyparker]

At this point, I'm just thrilled we got that lovely Carol-Tobin scene at all.  Considering a certain subset of the fandom's insistence that it had to be Daryl or eternally waiting for him and the way that our society tends to desexualize any woman who isn't a hot young thing, I'm rather impressed that the show was grown up enough to acknowledge that she has more on her mind than just making cookies between bouts of mayhem.

 

Tobin is handsome enough in that way that many older men are.  Lets just be honest that most guys in their later 40s and 50s do not look like Rick and that that's okay.  The character isn't well developed but he's not a complete blank either.  We know he's a basically decent guy who was able to look at what they were doing vs. what Abraham and company do and recognize that they need to do better.  He didn't hesitate to fight for his community but he's also clear he's nowhere near ready or able to be part of the away team.  The show could build on that if it chooses to.  Or not.  Because as Pete Martell points out, the scene wasn't really about him anyway.

Edited March 9, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Ocean Chick]

I just think it stinks a bit that the other main character ladies get hot, alpha main character men (Maggie has Glenn and Michonne has Rick), yet the best Carol can do is average looking, decent red shirt.  She's earned a hot, alpha man, dammit.  LOL  But I have hopes still, as there was NO passion in that kiss.  At best it was a "thank you for saying nice things about me and trying to make me feel better about myself" kiss.  She's still on the market for a hot, alpha male, if one should appear.

[jsbt]

Well, I'm still down for Morgan and Carol if the character ever gets the fuck over himself. I can sympathize with him up to a point but I couldn't believe he was still playing the mercy card after his social experiment almost got Denise killed. If Negan shows up walking hard with a big stick, Morgan is just as likely to come shufflin' on over afterwards with his weepy eyes and shaky voice asking if they have to answer slaughter with slaughter. Find some nuance!

Edited March 9, 2016 by jsbt

[Timetoread]

Tobin is handsome enough in that way that many older men are.  Lets just be honest that most guys in their later 40s and 50s do not look like Rick and that that's okay.  

 

Most PEOPLE don't look as good the people in movies and on tv.  That's why they get those jobs in Hollywood

 

 

I just think it stinks a bit that the other main character ladies get hot, alpha main character men (Maggie has Glenn and Michonne has Rick), yet the best Carol can do is average looking, decent red shirt.  She's earned a hot, alpha man, dammit.  LOL.

 

I know it's a matter of taste but I didn't consider Rick OR Glen OR Daryl to be "hot".  These men have grown on me as the series has evolved, mostly by familiarity and their demeanor.  I'll admit that Rick's brand of Clint Eastwood gone cray has me delcaring him a bona fide sex symbol, but if goofy-behind Andy Lincoln hit on me on the street, I'd tell him to keep walking.  When the show started I was all about Shane.  Dark, smoldering and musclebound is one of the types that catches my attention.  I was also digging The Gov (lookswise, not at all the person) because I also like tall, handsome and intense.  Glenn looked like a little boy to me and Rick looked like he needed some Vitamins C and E fed to him intravenously, he was all scurvy looking.  What is "sexy" isn't always connected to looks and who knows how the actor who plays Tobin is like in real life.  For instance I find real life Aaron to be hubba hubba, real life Eugene isn't wholly unattractive either.  But I don't think there are any pretty boys in the whole cast. 

 

As for Carol with a hot alpha male, that will take a minute.  Alpha males mate most naturally with alpha females - or easily conqured young hot babes.  Carol is not an alpha yet.  She is duplicitous and ambiguous.  She doesn't seem to know who she is or fully who she wants to be.  She's decided that there was something wrong with the Carol who was married to Ed and mother to Sophia.  So now she tries to out Rick Rick.  But Rick is motivated by love, not self hatred.  Maggie and Michonne are women who know who they are, why they fight, what means the most to them.  They are not defined by those alpha males at their sides.  Those men were drawn to them because they were smart enough to recognize how awesome those women were.  Carol doesn't let anybody see who she really is, because she hates that person.  She has major issues and she needs a man who is going to disarm her, denude her and love her for who she really is so that she can be capable of the same thing.  This season there have been two men who have taken the time to really look into Carol, Morgan and Tobin.  I am really interested to see if the show allows one of them to finally make it inside.

 

I feel like the Carol and Tobin stuff was a different way to show her coping mechanisms as well as a possible reminder that she's still a sexual being. I liked the line when he said most saw her as a mother, and she asked if he did too, and he said no. That sort of showed the different sides to her. I don't know if it means they will give her any more of a romantic or sexual side or if it was just about opening up the character for this episode, but if they did have a bit more with Tobin, I wouldn't be bothered by it. 

 

I don't know where they are going with it.  I don't have hopes about it one way or the other.  I really think the point of it was to show that Carol is still a woman and she is a woman who can still attract a man.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Timetoread

[Eyes High]

I just think it stinks a bit that the other main character ladies get hot, alpha main character men (Maggie has Glenn and Michonne has Rick), yet the best Carol can do is average looking, decent red shirt.  She's earned a hot, alpha man, dammit.  LOL  But I have hopes still, as there was NO passion in that kiss.  At best it was a "thank you for saying nice things about me and trying to make me feel better about myself" kiss.  She's still on the market for a hot, alpha male, if one should appear.

Glenn might be hot, but he sure as shit isn't "alpha." Ditto for Daryl, who's always been a follower...and Jesus, for that matter, who is hot but who has no interest in challenging Gregory's leadership. They are all decidedly non-alpha. In fact, that's what makes them appealing; they've evolved past the insecure, bullying, posturing masculinity that often plagues the "alpha" types. Glenn is a caring, sensitive guy who hates violence and doesn't apologize for it. Daryl quietly and competently does his job and protects the community without worrying about his place in the pecking order. Jesus is smarter and a better fighter than Gregory, and could kick his ass seven ways to Sunday, but he chooses not to because it's not in the community's best interests, rather than ranting and raving about how he knows what's best for everyone. He's matter of fact and strangely modest about busting out of their makeshift prison rather than boastful about how he put one over on Team Rick and made them look like idiots. It's an interesting contrast to the Saviours, who seem to be made up of macho bullies who get off on humiliating and dominating others.

 

The only hot alpha males on the show to date have been...well...Rick, Shane, and the governor, and not only is the hotness of the latter two questionable, there are good reasons why Carol would not be interested in any of them, as they would undoubtedly remind her of Ed.

 

I still think Morgan--arguably hot, definitely not an alpha--would be interested if Carol were willing to go there with him, but I can see why she would prefer someone with whom she didn't have all that fraught emotional baggage, someone who chalked up her ruthless killer instinct to "momness." She can enjoy herself with Tobin without worrying about him picking at her scabs the way Morgan does.

 

For instance I find real life Aaron to be hubba hubba

Ross Marquand is gorgeous and has a beautiful voice. He should do audiobooks.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

As for Carol with a hot alpha male, that will take a minute.  Alpha males mate most naturally with alpha females - or easily conqured young hot babes.  Carol is not an alpha yet.  She is duplicitous and ambiguous.  She doesn't seem to know who she is or fully who she wants to be.  She's decided that there was something wrong with the Carol who was married to Ed and mother to Sophia.  So now she tries to out Rick Rick.  But Rick is motivated by love, not self hatred.  Maggie and Michonne are women who know who they are, why they fight, what means the most to them.  They are not defined by those alpha males at their sides.  Those men were drawn to them because they were smart enough to recognize how awesome those women were.  Carol doesn't let anybody see who she really is, because she hates that person.  She has major issues and she needs a man who is going to disarm her, denude her and love her for who she really is so that she can be capable of the same thing.  This season there have been two men who have taken the time to really look into Carol, Morgan and Tobin.  I am really interested to see if the show allows one of them to finally make it inside.

 

This is an interesting take on Carol. I was re-watching season 5 finale and was thinking about the contrast between Carol and Michonne in their interactions with Rick. When Rick plaintively tells her that he wants to stop lying about their plan, Carol gives him the gun and responses that he cannot it all have both ways. Rick ignores Carol and tells Michonne the truth. Michonne responds with certainty that they can find a way, just don't make something happen, and refuses to take gun from him. In that moment the contrast between the two women is clear as is why Rick would fall in love with Michonne. Despite both Michonne and Carol both having lost a child, Michonne is confident in who she is, who she loves, who she fights for, and why she fights. Like Daryl who continues to struggle to overcome his childhood abuse, Carol has not yet overcome her abusive past. I like Tobin and think he is nice looking non-threatening man who will be good for Carol, but  Morgan sees the truth about her inner conflict so maybe when he finds a balance, something romantic might happen between them. I think Lennie James is handsome so if Carol does get him, she is a lucky woman.

 

I don't consider Glenn an alpha male, though I think Maggie is an alpha female. I think that Rick and yes, Abraham are the only alpha males in the main group. Although I sometimes agree the railing against Abraham for his occasional shitty behavior, I totally get Rosita and Sacha's attraction to him. He is a good man. I find his self-confidence, physical strength, courage, and determination attractive.

Edited March 10, 2016 by SimoneS

[rogueprinzess]

 

Ross Marquand is gorgeous and has a beautiful voice. He should do audiobooks.

 

I have the biggest crush on Ross. Every time I see him do an interview or make an appearance my hormones have a dance party. I seriously dig his beard too, I'm hoping that if he makes it to S7 of TWD he gets to keep it. And I can think of more creative ways for him to use his voice...wait, was that out loud?

 

 

Although I sometimes agree the railing against Abraham for his occasional shitty behavior, I totally get Rosita and Sacha's attraction to him. He is a good man. I find his self-confidence, physical strength, courage, and determination attractive.

 

Abe is all kinds of inappropriate and insensitive, but he's not a bad guy. To me he seems like the kind of guy who needs a woman who can not only check him when he goes too far, but also push him to be/do better. While Rosita takes no shit from Abraham (she's pulled a gun on him before and was prepared to use it) I haven't necessarily seen her push him to be better. Sasha sort of did that when they were alone in that office building, and again when she made it clear that there would be nothing more than friendship between them while he was still shacked up with Rosita. I think of Abe like an overgrown child; he'll run amok without proper supervision to discipline him and get him back in line and he craves that curbing. But I still think that Sasha would do better without him. 

Edited March 9, 2016 by rogueprinzess

[Pete Martell]

I just think it stinks a bit that the other main character ladies get hot, alpha main character men (Maggie has Glenn and Michonne has Rick), yet the best Carol can do is average looking, decent red shirt.  She's earned a hot, alpha man, dammit.  LOL  But I have hopes still, as there was NO passion in that kiss.  At best it was a "thank you for saying nice things about me and trying to make me feel better about myself" kiss.  She's still on the market for a hot, alpha male, if one should appear.

 

I think part of it is that Carol has always been an isolated character, and most of her stories have built on that isolation and self-doubt. 

 

TWD isn't really a show with a lot of big alpha guys on parade. Glenn has become more of that in recent years, slightly, but early on he was seen as a big geek and Maggie was supposed to be out of his league. Rick was repeatedly called (by many fans and by various characters) weak and feeble. In a lot of ways he's gone on the same journey Carol has gone on (minus the domestic violence and misogyny, obviously) which is why I'm always interested in seeing more of them together. Shane was the biggest alpha male the show ever had, but he was a trainwreck.

 

I think that's also one of the reasons Abraham has never completely worked - he's supposed to be a big macho man, but it doesn't translate well on the show, because the show doesn't have the same type of brooding macho atmosphere the comic may have had.

 

Tyreese and Morgan are both men who could have been written as alpha males, strong, complex, and I could have seen them both with Carol, but the show cut them both off at the knees by overplaying the passivity card and "give peace a chance" narrative until Tyreese nearly became a liability and Morgan did become a major liability. It's interesting in that, yet again, as with Carol and Tobin, genre tropes for men and women are inverted - in earlier decades, a female character would have been written as helping a dangerous man and causing carnage, while the brooding, troubled male character would have saved the day and kept quiet for her sake.

[NoWillToResist]

I liked Tobin in (I believe) his first scene, where he offers to teach seemingly meek Carol how to shoot. I thought that was a really nice thing for him to do. My liking only increased as we saw (granted, only though small moments though) his ability and willingness to chip in.

 

I can't decide whether to laugh, cry, roll my eyes (or all three) at all the rending-of-garments style grieving that's going on in certain parts of the "Caryl" fandom over Carol and Tobin's kiss. Anyone would think that they'd got married. Jesus Christ, it was a KISS. Not even some big passionate clinch either. I simply cannot see Daryl willing or able to be in a romantic relationship at this point anyway, so what's the fuss? Tobin isn't necessarily the iceberg to your ship there, folks. :) I realize that Jessie/Rick was a bit blink-and-you-miss-it but the show literally just demonstrated that a couple of kisses with a 3rd party doesn't mean the end to another couple, so why are people giving up hope if their endgame hope is Daryl/Carol?

 

It did seem as if the Carol/Daryl relationship was being emphasized a lot in previous seasons and that that relationship has pretty much evaporated in Season 6, which is probably why the shippers are crying foul. To my eye at least, it was all plausibly platonic, and there was nothing sexual about it except for a few joking (or "joking") innuendos from Carol that Daryl blew off. Still, any seasoned shipper will tell you that meaningful one-on-one interactions of the kind Carol and Daryl had (Daryl angsting over whether or not Carol is dead, Daryl and Carol's teary hug, Carol reaching for Daryl's hand in the van, etc. etc.) are the bread and butter of any ship.

 

As of Season 6, though, Carol and Daryl have had no one-on-one interaction, so the writers seem to have switched gears from Carol and Daryl's previously very close platonic relationship. Whether it was because the writers had some sort of plan for romantic Caryl down the road but changed their mind because they changed their plans for the characters, or whether they never had a plan to get the characters together but got tired of shipper nonsense insisting that Caryl become canon so effectively separated the characters to shut them up, we may never know.

 

If Tumblr can be believed, it has been literally a year (for us) since Daryl and Carol spoke to each other. That is criminal, IMO.

 

Heh, apparently Daryl/Carol is my TWD version of Dean/Cas on SPN. Love(d) their close relationship, wouldn't have been upset or surprised if it turned romantic, but would be equally fine with them staying super close but not romantic.

 

And lately TPTB have kept them apart and minimized their shared screen time. :(  I have a terrible track record with "shipping". Perhaps that's why I don't get so invested... :D