Love in the Time of Walkers: Relationships in The Walking Dead

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

It's not a tragedy for the fan fiction writers. In that world, everyone on this show is gay. Definitively and explicitly.

 

That - except for only when its Richonne or a self-insert OFC paired up with Daryl or Rick, then heterosexuality is ok.

[ParadoxLost]

I don't think any romantic shipping amongst the characters that are strongest / leaders of CDB will ever amount to anything.

 

I think these will remain platonic relationships because Rick, Carol, Daryl, and Michonne are critical to keeping each other balanced and they, the characters, aren't going to risk the survival of the group if romantic relationships don't work out.  I think whoever they get involved with will be people they can survive losing without too much time dabbling in crazypants farming.

[Madding crowd]

I think Norman Reedus likes to mess with people a lot, he probably knows there are all kind of shippers out there. I don't know, I kind of saw a spark between Daryl and Carol and Daryl and Beth (in different ways). I don't think there is a huge amount of asexual people in the world and someone who lived in a backwoods kind of life is probably not going to be one of them. At this point though, Daryl is so filthy and greasy, I can't imagine anyone getting with him.

 

I thought Michonne and Rick had a spark too and I also thought Deanna's speech was kind of on the order of go after him girl. I don't what else she could be talking about in regard to go get what you want. It's not like Michonne is going to save up for a trip to Paris or get her PHD. 

[AngelaHunter]

except for only when its Richonne or a self-insert OFC paired up with Daryl or Rick, then heterosexuality is ok.

 

Yes, I think is probably one of the few fandoms where the dreaded "Het" word raises its head. The self-insertions? I admit I read some of them for their comedic value and horrific grammar and spelling. You know - the "it's so bad it's good" kind of thing.

 

I don't think any romantic shipping amongst the characters that are strongest / leaders of CDB will ever amount to anything.

 

 

Agree.

[Watcher0363]

I grew up in the duck and cover a bomb era so I will after this comment. Now that Morgan has body slammed Carol. She will probably wake up in love with Morgan. Because I am sure at some point Carol had a throw pillow that said, "They only body slam the ones they love."

[rab01]

I think Daryl's character makes sense if the character is a few decades younger than the Norman Reedus.

 

Daryl grew up in the backwoods with his domineering and very crude older brother, right? I bet that Merle interfered with every girl that a teenaged Daryl was interested in by just being around and being all Merle all over the place. I also suspect that Merle was the kind of character who bought Daryl a night with a prostitute for Daryl's first time and that Daryl couldn't say no. If Daryl were attracted to guys, he'd have known that Merle would have beaten the crap out of him and possibly murdered the other guy.  That kind of childhood could lead someone sensitive like the Daryl we've seen to become very shy and awkward around any woman that he really likes and to treat them like stained glass because he has no idea how to behave around them. I think that would explain why Daryl seemed so interested in Carol in the prison but he never turned it into a physical relationship. If my sense is close, Daryl will work great as a partner with someone but it will have to be that person who makes the first move (and possibly the second and third moves as well).

 

The reason I say this works if Daryl the character is in his late 20's is that I can't picture Daryl living for 4 decades in that sort of situation without some period of separation and becoming his own man in between.

[ghoulina]

The reason I say this works if Daryl the character is in his late 20's is that I can't picture Daryl living for 4 decades in that sort of situation without some period of separation and becoming his own man in between.

 

I agree with your entire speculation about Daryl, and in my mind - I thought of him as late 20s or right around 30 when the show started. I always figured Rick, Lori, and Shane were mid 30s, and Daryl came off as a bit younger than them. Plus, there was something Daryl said that made it seem as if Merle was about 7-8 years older. And I would say Rooker was supposed to be playing a 40-year-old roughly. 

 

This was all a lot easier to believe when the show first started. Not only have these characters literally aged 6 years in what is supposed to be less than 2 years, but doing THIS kind of show definitely ages you itself. Dude is looking rough. 

 

I thought Michonne and Rick had a spark too and I also thought Deanna's speech was kind of on the order of go after him girl. I don't what else she could be talking about in regard to go get what you want. It's not like Michonne is going to save up for a trip to Paris or get her PHD.

 

I didn't really get that vibe from Deanna. I thought she simply recognized that not only is Michonne a physical force to be reckoned with, but she is intelligent and capable and shouldn't just settle for always being second in command. I thought she was urging Michonne to be more of a voice within their group, to make things happen, to think about what she wants for their future. 

[Morrigan2575]

I thought Deanna was encouraging Michonne to be the new spiritual leader/dreamer and make a new community happen. Unlike Rick, Michonne believed in Deanna's dream and I think Deanna wanted Michonne to take her place, to care for all the people, not just "Rick's People".

[Nashville]

Really?  Not even when he's putting on the (in his mind) dolphin-smooth moves?   lol

 

So much for that late lunch.

 

In a world where Beth's potential future partner was little Carl, I don't think there's such a thing as girl code. I've seen nothing that convinces me that Rosita and Abe were anything but friends with benefits. We've seen her worrying over whether Abe is still alive, but that's not necessarily romantic. It appeared Sasha was receptive to Abe's overtures (as long as he set things straight with Rosita first) and knowing you could die at any moment is incentive to not accept staying in a relationship that isn't making you happy.

But the Girl Code gets a pass if the follow-up girlfriend(s) is/are - or can claim to be - really really drunk, right?

At least - that's the way it seemed to work, back when I was in college....

  

I grew up in the duck and cover a bomb era so I will after this comment. Now that Morgan has body slammed Carol. She will probably wake up in love with Morgan. Because I am sure at some point Carol had a throw pillow that said, "They only body slam the ones they love."

Aw hell. I'm ducking too, and I only read the damn thing. :D

[Mu Shu]

I'm only speculating, but I think Rosita is a goner. I cringed listening to the actress droning her lines at machete practice. She's pretty, but so is Sasha, who is portrayed far more competently and works well in the cast. Poor Sasha though, having to get coupled with Abe.

[ghoulina]

I think she is too. No way the writers will try and tackle an interesting boondoggle such as that one - they'll just kill someone off instead. 

[Eyes High]

I grew up in the duck and cover a bomb era so I will after this comment. Now that Morgan has body slammed Carol. She will probably wake up in love with Morgan. Because I am sure at some point Carol had a throw pillow that said, "They only body slam the ones they love."

In all seriousness, even after the MSF, I still see the possibility of some sort of connection between them, for all that Carol would not appreciate someone who had laid hands on her. Carol doesn't even like or trust Morgan, let alone love him, but she takes an interest. She pays attention. In 6x02, she not only killed Morgan's attacker but also doubled back to give Morgan a gun after Morgan blew her cover and endangered her. Carol also took her suspicions about Morgan to Rick and Michonne to talk some sense into him rather than threatening him or executing him summarily. Given Carol's personality these days, Carol's refusal to go nuclear on Morgan until the last possible moment and her insistence on giving him second chances says a lot more than sappy speeches would.

In the MSF, she was prepared to go through with killing Morgan, but she really didn't want to. Carol, coldblooded executioner Carol who has calmly murdered scores of people, even innocent people, to protect the group, when facing down Morgan, was shaking, glassy-eyed, almost unhinged, spouting justifications at him. Morgan definitely has an effect on Carol, although it's questionable whether or not it's an effect that's beneficial to Carol.

To weigh in on the Daryl debate, he sticks out at me as being the only adult lead character, male or female, to have no sexual or romantic past or present. Even grumpily celibate Eugene has sexual desires that we know of. Michonne had a hot man back in the day. Carol had Ed. Abe is involved with Rosita and lusting over Sasha. And so on. Daryl's just one big blank. Not even no sexual or romantic relationships, but also no lusts or desires to speak of, even surrounded as he is by hot ladies and hot guys. For someone his age, barring issues stemming from his abuse, is that remotely realistic unless he is indeed asexual?

Edited November 30, 2015 by Eyes High

[nodorothyparker]

The whole Carol-Morgan fight was horribly motivated and written but in accepting that it's canon now, I'll be curious to see how they handle it going forward.  Knowing how she felt about Ed and reacted to Pete, it's hard to imagine that she's going to be cool with Morgan beating her down and knocking her unconscious.  But the fact remains that he's gotten to her in a way nobody else has in quite a while.  He called her out on her happy homemaker act being an act when both the ASZhats and the CBD members alike seemed to be looking right past her and clearly rattled her in doing it.  He's been the only character other than Daryl when they still had scenes together to even recognize that maybe she's not just fine with everything she's done.

 

Part of that is piss poor writing of having group members interact with each other so little since their arrival in Alexandria, and surely part of it is having isolated her so much as a character from nearly everyone except Rick and Daryl.   But I think it's also clear that Morgan and Carol recognize something in each other.  I have no idea what they could plausibly make of that in light of him manhandling her, but this is the same show where Rick and Michonne get to be besties despite the fact that Rick was saved from turning her over to the Guvnuh for certain torture and death only through Merle sprouting a conscience at the 11th hour.

Edited November 30, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Nashville]

Daryl's just one big blank. Not even no sexual or romantic relationships, but also no lusts or desires to speak of, even surrounded as he is by hot ladies and hot guys. For someone his age, barring issues stemming from his abuse, is that remotely realistic unless he is indeed asexual?

That, or continually flat broke.

Considering his upbringing, for all we know Daryl may never have had a sexual encounter which did not involve a commercial transaction of some sort.

Not judging, mind you, but I don't see - and I don't think Daryl sees - any in the current crop of eligibles willing to give it up for a couple of rabbits.

With a possum thrown in, even.

And supply bartering is the only form of commerce still around.

;>

[chlban]

I think she is too. No way the writers will try and tackle an interesting boondoggle such as that one - they'll just kill someone off instead.

But we could do the whole Shane/Lori/Rick story again only with 2 women, one man. At least they haven't used that storyline in a while. Instead we have ANOTHER group of murderous whackadoos. Yawn

[nodorothyparker]

At this point I think I might prefer a tortured triangle to another group of murderous wackadoos.

[Mu Shu]

I prefer someone making prosciutto over murderous whackadoos at this point unless it's Olivia. Aaron will do. He seems capable of taking a hog and curing it.

Sigh. Keep the red machete handy is the moral of the story.

[ghoulina]

But we could do the whole Shane/Lori/Rick story again only with 2 women, one man. At least they haven't used that storyline in a while. Instead we have ANOTHER group of murderous whackadoos. Yawn

 

Ah, but that's back when the writers actually attempted to tackle interesting dilemmas and quagmires within the group. I'm with you on ANOTHER group of muderous whackadoos. I get that you would come across bad guys. But I'm also very interested in seeing some interpersonal issues with the group themselves. And not this Us vs. Them ASZ crap. I know a lot of people found the Lori/Shane/Rick love triangle tiresome, but I thought it was real and interesting. As was seeing Rick and Lori together after he was over her shit. How does a ZA divorce work? It was quite fascinating. I want to see more stuff like that. The group isn't always going to agree. And I know, in certain circumstances, they don't have the luxury of hemming and hawing. But I would like to see how Rosita would handle Abe wanting to be with Sasha now, when they might all very well live in the same house. And would it affect how others saw Abe? 

 

Even the thing with Morgan and his peace train could have been explored more. Instead we got a 3 minute sit down, but endless hours of Jessie and her annoying brats. I'm just convinced that the show isn't interesting in doing anything interesting any more. 

[Ocean Chick]

I really don't see how they could write a Carol/Morgan close relationship plausibly now, in view of the beatdown.  There is no way that Carol, dv victim who decided to burn that personae after Ed died, would waste time on another man who beats her.  And Morgan will be dealing with the guilt of having lost control and becoming violent.  There will be an uneasy truce, I think, but there's no way they could write a storyline that I'd believe where it was anything more than that.

[Eyes High]

Ah, but that's back when the writers actually attempted to tackle interesting dilemmas and quagmires within the group. I'm with you on ANOTHER group of muderous whackadoos. I get that you would come across bad guys. But I'm also very interested in seeing some interpersonal issues with the group themselves. And not this Us vs. Them ASZ crap. I know a lot of people found the Lori/Shane/Rick love triangle tiresome, but I thought it was real and interesting. As was seeing Rick and Lori together after he was over her shit. How does a ZA divorce work? It was quite fascinating. I want to see more stuff like that. The group isn't always going to agree. And I know, in certain circumstances, they don't have the luxury of hemming and hawing. But I would like to see how Rosita would handle Abe wanting to be with Sasha now, when they might all very well live in the same house. And would it affect how others saw Abe? 

 

Even the thing with Morgan and his peace train could have been explored more. Instead we got a 3 minute sit down, but endless hours of Jessie and her annoying brats. I'm just convinced that the show isn't interesting in doing anything interesting any more. 

 

Well, we don't have any real-life precedent for a zombie apocalypse,  but there are real-life situations where there has been a near-complete breakdown in the social order (i.e. failed states). (Insert your own biting comment about how North Americans' fantasy fare is a grim reality for people in other parts of the world.) I wonder if there's been any research into whether people organize their relationships any differently in "apocalyptic" living conditions--constant clashes between armed factions, no public services, limited food, etc. etc.--or whether they organize their relationships pretty much the same way they would under "normal" living conditions.

 

Even though I don't know of any such research findings, I do think it's likely as a matter of common sense that you'd see more "intentional" families as people get separated from or lose their family members to violence, illness or starvation, just as in TWD people lose their family members and stick with a group of people to whom they're not related: Carol loses Ed and Sophia, Michonne loses her son, Morgan loses his wife and son, Maggie loses her whole family, Sasha loses Tyreese, Judith loses her mother and her (likely) bio dad (although she's still related to Carl), etc. etc.

 

On a less cheery note, I think you'd also see more people staying in less than ideal or even abusive relationships for survival reasons. I'd also expect more domestic violence due to all the PTSD. I'd expect more rape and more sexual abuse of children, as they are endemic in closed communities with no links to the "outside world" (The Atlantic did a great article on rape and sexual abuse in isolated Alaska communities recently, and there are any number of exposes about rape and sexual abuse in cults, communes, and isolated religious communities). The isolated Alexandria community quietly tolerating Pete's abuse of Jessie seems very realistic in that respect.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Eyes High

[kj4ever]

I really don't see how they could write a Carol/Morgan close relationship plausibly now, in view of the beatdown.  There is no way that Carol, dv victim who decided to burn that personae after Ed died, would waste time on another man who beats her.  And Morgan will be dealing with the guilt of having lost control and becoming violent.  There will be an uneasy truce, I think, but there's no way they could write a storyline that I'd believe where it was anything more than that.

Well technically Morgan didn't "beat her".  She was umm trying to kill him and he defended himself.

 

Hey stranger things have happened. Tara was standing outside the prison when Maggie's Dad got his head lopped off and now she is one of the most important people in the world to her.

 

All I have to say is this show better step it up second half big time because I'm loosing interest quick.  Maybe this show is just better for binge watching?

[Ocean Chick]

Hey stranger things have happened. Tara was standing outside the prison when Maggie's Dad got his head lopped off and now she is one of the most important people in the world to her.

 

 

True.  But Tara didn't personally take Hershel's head off either.  She didn't lift a finger against Team Prison.  Morgan DID body slam her, even after he suspected that she had a concussion.  And if Morgan had just stepped aside - or even better yet, killed the wolf to begin with - then Carol wouldn't have had to threaten Morgan.

 

Now the writers and show runner may make Carol and Morgan become BFFs, but it won't ring true to me. Nor a large portion of the GA, I'll wager.

[kj4ever]

True.  But Tara didn't personally take Hershel's head off either.  She didn't lift a finger against Team Prison.  Morgan DID body slam her, even after he suspected that she had a concussion.  And if Morgan had just stepped aside - or even better yet, killed the wolf to begin with - then Carol wouldn't have had to threaten Morgan.

 

Now the writers and show runner may make Carol and Morgan become BFFs, but it won't ring true to me. Nor a large portion of the GA, I'll wager.

Yes he did and I would too if someone was trying to kill me...lol  The "but it's a female" goes out the window once they are trying to kill your ass.

[Eyes High]

True.  But Tara didn't personally take Hershel's head off either.  She didn't lift a finger against Team Prison.  Morgan DID body slam her, even after he suspected that she had a concussion.  And if Morgan had just stepped aside - or even better yet, killed the wolf to begin with - then Carol wouldn't have had to threaten Morgan.

 

Morgan was defending himself against someone who was charging at him with a knife ready to kill him, and, having seen her murder people she considered a threat before, he knew full well she was capable of going through with it. It's not right to blame Morgan for not treating her with kid gloves or showing gentlemanly deference to her injury; she was ready, able and willing to kill him, concussion or not. Was he supposed to let her murder him by taking it easy on her out of chivalry? I think the basis for the defence of self-defence rests on proportional force: you don't get to stab someone to stop them from slapping you in the face. I think a body slam was completely justified given that Carol was coming at him with a knife with a stated intent to kill him and wasn't going to stop until knocked unconscious or killed. It's the same reason police officers don't try to kneecap people once they've decided to shoot them but aim for the chest (largest area) instead. Going easy on Carol would have resulted in Morgan's death, and he was justified in defending himself against Carol's attempt to murder him and not dying out of courtesy.

 

Also, Morgan is not at all at fault for refusing to step aside and let Carol murder the Wolf. Carol was probably right in the sense of the danger the Wolf posed to the group, but she was dead wrong for not only making the decision that the Wolf had to die at that precise moment (not her decision to make, definitely not the right moment), but also deciding that she was going to enforce that decision at that precise moment and kill anyone who interfered. She should have done what Morgan suggested: wait until the walker threat passed to sort out her beef with Morgan. She could have raised the issue with Rick, who would have agreed with her about the Wolf and would have firmly enforced the decision with Morgan without waving a knife in Morgan's face and threatening to kill him if he refused to back down. A bonus might have been that Morgan probably would have been exiled for his continuing subversion of Rick's authority in favour of his "all life is precious" creed. Instead, Carol forces the issue at the worst possible time, forces a fight with a superior hand-to-hand fighter (Carol's actually pretty crap at hand-to-hand if she faces a ready opponent as opposed to sneaking up on them), and gets her ass beat. Hard to sympathize with her, especially since Carol is usually so much smarter than that.

 

Also, I don't think it's open to people who present themselves as coldblooded murderers to expect to be treated with kid gloves by people they are trying to kill who have seen them murder other people, DV survivors or not. If you hold yourself out as a dangerous person, you can safely expect to be treated like one. Carol wasn't just a concussed, distraught DV survivor waving a knife around; she was someone Morgan had seen calmly murder people before his very eyes. Carol gave Morgan every reason to take her at her word when she said she would kill him. He shouldn't be blamed for acting accordingly.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Eyes High

[rab01]

I was going to say something sarcastic about a fight being such a major topic of discussion in the shipping thread but then I realized that this fight was more personal contact with another human than either character has had in Alexandria and that this fight operated exactly like sex does in this Show.  On TWD, two characters instantly look less sympathetic, look less likable and become less interesting as soon as they hook-up (e.g., Shane and Lori, the Governor and Andrea, Abe and anything, and even twu wuv Glenn and Maggie). They managed to do the same exact thing here -- Morgan looks more crazy and Carol looks less effectual. They contorted themselves to engineer a fight where both people were in the wrong and somehow bodyslamming a concussed person into concrete was the least terrible consequence of it. It reverses the usual pattern of hitting someone making the character look better (e.g. Michonne knocking out Rick, Jessie killing the wolf). Sometimes, this is a really weird show ;)

[Ohwell]

Morgan was defending himself against someone who was charging at him with a knife ready to kill him, and, having seen her murder people she considered a threat before, he knew full well she was capable of going through with it. It's not right to blame Morgan for not treating her with kid gloves or showing gentlemanly deference to her injury; she was ready, able and willing to kill him, concussion or not. Was he supposed to let her murder him by taking it easy on her out of chivalry? I think the basis for the defence of self-defence rests on proportional force: you don't get to stab someone to stop them from slapping you in the face. I think a body slam was completely justified given that Carol was coming at him with a knife with a stated intent to kill him and wasn't going to stop until knocked unconscious or killed. It's the same reason police officers don't try to kneecap people once they've decided to shoot them but aim for the chest (largest area) instead. Going easy on Carol would have resulted in Morgan's death, and he was justified in defending himself against Carol's attempt to murder him and not dying out of courtesy.

 

Also, Morgan is not at all at fault for refusing to step aside and let Carol murder the Wolf. Carol was probably right in the sense of the danger the Wolf posed to the group, but she was dead wrong for not only making the decision that the Wolf had to die at that precise moment (not her decision to make, definitely not the right moment), but also deciding that she was going to enforce that decision at that precise moment and kill anyone who interfered. She should have done what Morgan suggested: wait until the walker threat passed to sort out her beef with Morgan. She could have raised the issue with Rick, who would have agreed with her about the Wolf and would have firmly enforced the decision with Morgan without waving a knife in Morgan's face and threatening to kill him if he refused to back down. A bonus might have been that Morgan probably would have been exiled for his continuing subversion of Rick's authority in favour of his "all life is precious" creed. Instead, Carol forces the issue at the worst possible time, forces a fight with a superior hand-to-hand fighter (Carol's actually pretty crap at hand-to-hand if she faces a ready opponent as opposed to sneaking up on them), and gets her ass beat. Hard to sympathize with her, especially since Carol is usually so much smarter than that.

 

Also, I don't think it's open to people who present themselves as coldblooded murderers to expect to be treated with kid gloves by people they are trying to kill who have seen them murder other people, DV survivors or not. If you hold yourself out as a dangerous person, you can safely expect to be treated like one. Carol wasn't just a concussed, distraught DV survivor waving a knife around; she was someone Morgan had seen calmly murder people before his very eyes. Carol gave Morgan every reason to take her at her word when she said she would kill him. He shouldn't be blamed for acting accordingly.

I had to quote all of this because all I can say is "Amen!"

[paigow]

Bob Costas: There's a flag on the play...

Ref [body Mic]: Personal Foul. Defence. Roughing the Stabber. Loss of Weapon. Automatic 1st Down.

[NorthstarATL]

Ah, but that's back when the writers actually attempted to tackle interesting dilemmas and quagmires within the group. I'm with you on ANOTHER group of muderous whackadoos. I get that you would come across bad guys. But I'm also very interested in seeing some interpersonal issues with the group themselves. And not this Us vs. Them ASZ crap. I know a lot of people found the Lori/Shane/Rick love triangle tiresome, but I thought it was real and interesting. As was seeing Rick and Lori together after he was over her shit. How does a ZA divorce work? It was quite fascinating. I want to see more stuff like that. The group isn't always going to agree. And I know, in certain circumstances, they don't have the luxury of hemming and hawing. But I would like to see how Rosita would handle Abe wanting to be with Sasha now, when they might all very well live in the same house. And would it affect how others saw Abe? 

 

Even the thing with Morgan and his peace train could have been explored more. Instead we got a 3 minute sit down, but endless hours of Jessie and her annoying brats. I'm just convinced that the show isn't interesting in doing anything interesting any more. 

Therein lies the problem for the writers. If you have two minutes of worldbuilding, or exploring a philosophical issue, and the internet yawns loudly and unenthusiastically. I think someone on these forums suggested it, but I do not recall who, but airing this series in the way Netflix or Amazon does, as a "bingefest", would be the best thing ever.

 

I really don't see how they could write a Carol/Morgan close relationship plausibly now, in view of the beatdown.  There is no way that Carol, dv victim who decided to burn that personae after Ed died, would waste time on another man who beats her.  And Morgan will be dealing with the guilt of having lost control and becoming violent.  There will be an uneasy truce, I think, but there's no way they could write a storyline that I'd believe where it was anything more than that.

I never saw them as having any potential other than grudging allies/neighbors. Morgan would run quickly if he had ever heard her advice to Andrea about the Governor.

 

Well, we don't have any real-life precedent for a zombie apocalypse,  but there are real-life situations where there has been a near-complete breakdown in the social order (i.e. failed states). (Insert your own biting comment about how North Americans' fantasy fare is a grim reality for people in other parts of the world.) I wonder if there's been any research into whether people organize their relationships any differently in "apocalyptic" living conditions--constant clashes between armed factions, no public services, limited food, etc. etc.--or whether they organize their relationships pretty much the same way they would under "normal" living conditions.

 

Even though I don't know of any such research findings, I do think it's likely as a matter of common sense that you'd see more "intentional" families as people get separated from or lose their family members to violence, illness or starvation, just as in TWD people lose their family members and stick with a group of people to whom they're not related: Carol loses Ed and Sophia, Michonne loses her son, Morgan loses his wife and son, Maggie loses her whole family, Sasha loses Tyreese, Judith loses her mother and her (likely) bio dad (although she's still related to Carl), etc. etc.

 

On a less cheery note, I think you'd also see more people staying in less than ideal or even abusive relationships for survival reasons. I'd also expect more domestic violence due to all the PTSD. I'd expect more rape and more sexual abuse of children, as they are endemic in closed communities with no links to the "outside world" (The Atlantic did a great article on rape and sexual abuse in isolated Alaska communities recently, and there are any number of exposes about rape and sexual abuse in cults, communes, and isolated religious communities). The isolated Alexandria community quietly tolerating Pete's abuse of Jessie seems very realistic in that respect.

I believe that that is also why we get more "murderous whackadoos" in this fictional universe. because, despite our strong desire to believe otherwise, history, and failed states, show us that when society breaks down the power vacuum is too often filled by those types. Add to that mix people who are willing to trade security or having their needs met for freedom and you have the impetus for any number of despots and tyrants to emerge.

 

Well technically Morgan didn't "beat her".  She was umm trying to kill him and he defended himself.

 

Hey stranger things have happened. Tara was standing outside the prison when Maggie's Dad got his head lopped off and now she is one of the most important people in the world to her.

 

All I have to say is this show better step it up second half big time because I'm loosing interest quick.  Maybe this show is just better for binge watching?

Morgan used overwhelming force which could realistically have broken her neck, when we know from previous situations that he is far more skilled than that, and in particular, at a martial art that would allow him to disable her attack without doing that amount of damage. Not to mention that he has height, weight, and muscle mass advantage, as well as training. The only "one on one" fights that Carol has been in have been with Ed, and her record is lousy. (I am NOT defending Carol's actions in that scene, which, unless the writers offer an explanation, were out of character, but two wrongs. etc.)

[ghoulina]

I think both character's actions in that scene were out of character for them. But yes, I was expecting Morgan to use his crazy skills to just knock the knife out of her hand. 

[Eyes High]

I am NOT defending Carol's actions in that scene, which, unless the writers offer an explanation, were out of character

 

It was entirely out of character. When caught out by Morgan, the Carol I know would have made a big show of dropping the issue, ensured that the Wolf was secured--and Morgan wouldn't have objected to ensuring that the Wolf couldn't go anywhere--and, once the crisis was over, would have gone tattling to Rick the way she did about Morgan letting the Wolves escape OR would have quietly dispatched the Wolf once Morgan was distracted and explained herself to Rick after the fact. That's who she is. She doesn't do direct confrontations when there's no real urgency. She doesn't pick a fight with someone who is anticipating an attack. She goes around people (killing Karvid). She disguises herself to avoid direct confrontations (the Wolves, Terminus attack). She sneaks up on them (the Wolf attacking Morgan, the Wolf she shot from behind). She corners them when they're alone (Pete, Sam, etc.). She smoothly lies to conceal her true intentions. Carol doing what she did was completely out of character, and the only explanation I can think of is that she was so concussed that it was affecting her behaviour.

 

I believe that that is also why we get more "murderous whackadoos" in this fictional universe. because, despite our strong desire to believe otherwise, history, and failed states, show us that when society breaks down the power vacuum is too often filled by those types. Add to that mix people who are willing to trade security or having their needs met for freedom and you have the impetus for any number of despots and tyrants to emerge.

 

Excellent point. It's not as if charismatic, insane, murderous, atrocity-happy warlords with highly eccentric beliefs lack historical precedent. The "murderous whackadoos in a failed state environment creating their own extremely violent gangs or dictatorships" part of TWD is actually pretty realistic.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Eyes High

[Nashville]

Excellent point. It's not as if charismatic, insane, murderous, atrocity-happy warlords with highly eccentric beliefs lack historical precedent. The "murderous whackadoos in a failed state environment creating their own extremely violent gangs or dictatorships" part of TWD is actually pretty realistic.

Lack historical precedent? They're practically a given.

When people's lives and families are quite literally in immediate danger of not surviving, their immediate tendency is to flock to whoever or whatever offers the greatest degree of safety and security - and while a psychopath adopting a scorched-earth policy on any Outsiders in the immediate vicinity may involve some morally abhorrent behavior, it probably ranks pretty high in terms of providing said safety and security.

So long as you have enough firepower to fend off any retaliatory strikes, that is....

[rab01]

... Carol doing what she did was completely out of character, and the only explanation I can think of is that she was so concussed that it was affecting her behaviour.

 

... The "murderous whackadoos in a failed state environment creating their own extremely violent gangs or dictatorships" part of TWD is actually pretty realistic.

Completely agree with everything you said but I snipped out that one line because I really resent whenever the show so trashes its own continuity that we have to attribute the character's actions to (literally) being brain damaged.

 

As for the murderous antagonists, this situation is worse than a failed state because there are no familial, tribal, clan or religious ties holding groups together either. In a real world failed state there are still some of those moderating influences in place. Also, the people who live in high-conflict areas are born into those areas and sometimes into those conditions (many modern failed states have had prior violent periods within recent memory) but everyone in the ZA is a former real estate agent or pizza delivery guy trying to figure out how to survive without grocery stores. 

 

I've always thought that Kirkman was heavily influenced by Thomas Hobbes when he built this world; y'know:

"In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain, and consequently, not culture of the earth, no navigation, nor the use of commodities that may be imported by sea, no commodious building, no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force, no knowledge of the face of the earth, no account of time, no arts, no letters, no society, and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short"

[paigow]

But yes, I was expecting Morgan to use his crazy skills to just knock the knife out of her hand. 

He did that right away. She crawled after it. He held her leg (instead of aggressively pinning her). She kicked him away and recovered the knife.

[Ronin Jackson]

I hope when Abraham dumps Rosita then goes back to Sasha saying "I'm a free agent babe", she says "Sorry dude, you didn't get me. I just wanted to free Rosita from your two timin' ass."

[Starchild]

It's not as if charismatic, insane, murderous, atrocity-happy warlords with highly eccentric beliefs lack historical precedent. The "murderous whackadoos in a failed state environment creating their own extremely violent gangs or dictatorships" part of TWD is actually pretty realistic.

But how many times do we have to see that story play out? I'm bored. There's historical precedent for progress and civilization too. Let's see some of that for a while. There's still plenty of drama in interpersonal relationships, governance structures, the occasional one-off bad guy, and...oh yeah...frakkin' zombies!

[NoWillToResist]

The whole Carol-Morgan fight was horribly motivated and written but in accepting that it's canon now, I'll be curious to see how they handle it going forward.  Knowing how she felt about Ed and reacted to Pete, it's hard to imagine that she's going to be cool with Morgan beating her down and knocking her unconscious.  .

 

I really liked it when she said that while she didn't trust him, she thought he was honest. Kind of a back-handed compliment. Also, kind of ironic (IMO) considering that he's hiding a Wolf among the sheep it had just preyed upon.

 

I don't think she'll equate Morgan with Pete or Ed. Those men abused their wives. Morgan challenged her attack and planned murder of another "human being".

 

While I disagree that the Wolf should have ever been spared, I think Carol has enough experience to differentiate Morgan from abusive husbands. Truthfully, I'm curious to discover whether this will actually raise Morgan in her estimation. He's not weak at all; he just chooses non-violence over murder. I think Carol has seen him as a weak pacifist, but clearly he's willing to use violence in some circumstances, when push comes to shove. Maybe she'll trust him to not stand by while people try to murder them...

[Nashville]

I've always thought that Kirkman was heavily influenced by Thomas Hobbes when he built this world; y'know:

"In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain, and consequently, not culture of the earth, no navigation, nor the use of commodities that may be imported by sea, no commodious building, no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force, no knowledge of the face of the earth, no account of time, no arts, no letters, no society, and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short"

That, or Kirkman spent a weekend in Baltimore once. ;)

Good quote, btw.

[ghoulina]

But how many times do we have to see that story play out? I'm bored. There's historical precedent for progress and civilization too. Let's see some of that for a while. There's still plenty of drama in interpersonal relationships, governance structures, the occasional one-off bad guy, and...oh yeah...frakkin' zombies!

 

Agreed. Realistic doesn't always make for good TV. 

[rab01]

But how many times do we have to see that story play out? I'm bored. There's historical precedent for progress and civilization too. Let's see some of that for a while. There's still plenty of drama in interpersonal relationships, governance structures, the occasional one-off bad guy, and...oh yeah...frakkin' zombies!

That's exactly what we've had this half-season. In fact, that would make for a decent season-synopsis. Are you bored of what we just saw or what we think will be coming up in the second half?

 

Personally, I just want them to tell their stories a little better.  I think this was a pretty good season sabotaged by Schrodinger's Glenn.

[Eyes High]

But how many times do we have to see that story play out? I'm bored. There's historical precedent for progress and civilization too. Let's see some of that for a while. There's still plenty of drama in interpersonal relationships, governance structures, the occasional one-off bad guy, and...oh yeah...frakkin' zombies!

 

I think this show has to be careful about getting too far into the "people standing around talking to each other" rut. Someone made the cruel but accurate observation that the farm stuff on the show had the feeling of bad community theatre. (The acting probably didn't help, but...) Very static, very inert, and very dull. The show needs movement and momentum, which I think is why the introduction of outside threats--the herd and these horrific gangs (the Wolves and Negan's bunch)--is necessary: these shakeups move things forward. Otherwise, you end up with a bunch of people standing around talking at each other. Now, don't get me wrong: with superior writing, "a bunch of people standing around talking at each other" can be riveting stuff (heck, "Twelve Angry Men" took place in one room). However, with these writers, who are serviceable at best, and the source material, which is pretty awful in a lot of ways (leaden dialogue that sounds like no person ever, speechifying, boring manpain, too much focus on white dudes and psychopaths, thin to nonexistent characterization of everyone who's not a white dude or a psychopath, poorly written romances), I don't think there's enough writing strength to make it compelling without introducing these shocks to the storyline.

 

I don't think she'll equate Morgan with Pete or Ed. Those men abused their wives. Morgan challenged her attack and planned murder of another "human being".

 

To be fair, I think if Carol had been minding her own business or had even been unarmed and Morgan had beat her up, the fact that she wasn't his wife wouldn't make him any less of a piece of shit. However, I do think there's a meaningful distinction between "a man attacks a woman" and "a man attacks a woman who is coming at him with a knife with a stated intent to kill him."

 

Agreed. Realistic doesn't always make for good TV. 

 

Postapocalyptic TV shows and movies (or TV shows and movies about war), and I think in particular American TV shows and movies, are notorious for pulling their punches, refusing to follow the scenarios to their grim, logical ends, and trying to impose sunny optimism. (Jericho was a pretty bad offender in this respect.) There are exceptions--The Road, my goodness--but they're few and far between. There are all these thinkpieces about American audiences' appetite for postapocalyptic movies or movies about war, but the fare itself is usually relatively upbeat. I think people do want the exciting possibilities of an apocalyptic or postapocalyptic world, but through the American lens it gets framed as illustrating a spirit of adventure, reinvention, new possibilities, etc. etc.

 

Personally, I just want them to tell their stories a little better.  I think this was a pretty good season sabotaged by Schrodinger's Glenn.

 

Pacing this season was awful. We got one awesome episode (6x02) and the rest was a tedious slog, although personally I quite liked Morgan's Karate Kid episode (no need for it to be 90 minutes, though).

Edited December 3, 2015 by Eyes High

[JBody]

Agreed. TWD is the bastard child of Turner's frontier thesis and the Hobbesian state. Am I in the shipping thread? Okay, that works.

[Starchild]

That's exactly what we've had this half-season. In fact, that would make for a decent season-synopsis. Are you bored of what we just saw or what we think will be coming up in the second half?

Definitely what's coming. Another Governor type? Please shoot me.

[ParadoxLost]

I think an argument can be made that its much more dangerous to be Morgan's friend or acquaintance than a raving psychopath.  And I'm talking about Morgan's direct actions rather indirect danger of him failing to properly secure prisons or letting the murderous hordes continue to live and kill another day. 

 

If I take together Morgan's attitude toward Rick on seeing him shoot Pete and how Rick deals with the ASZers and then Morgan's willingness to use potentially deadly force against Carol to protect the Wolf (and I think he was defending the Wolf, not himself in that scene) then I think something more than every life is precious is going on with Morgan.

 

I think the unrepentant murderer is safer because Morgan has decided that they are just crazy like he was and can be saved.  So any murderous action can be forgiven and he just needs to control the murderer long enough to get them to come around like he did. 

 

People like Carol and Rick on the other hand, Morgan knows they aren't crazy.  They just disagree with him.  And if push comes to shove, he'll protect the murderer who he sees as lost and defenseless in this world.

[AngelaHunter]

That kind of childhood could lead someone sensitive like the Daryl we've seen to become very shy and awkward around any woman

 

 

Agree. I said quite some time ago that to me, Daryl probably was totally intimidated by the women in CDB - women who would have probably crossed the street to avoid him or called the cops had he approached them pre-ZA. He would never have come into contact with women like Andrea, Carol, Maggie, etc.,  before and certainly would never have had any kind of social interaction with them. Really, he should be over all that by now but maybe he's a late bloomer.

 

Really?  Not even when he's putting on the (in his mind) dolphin-smooth moves?

 

Carrot tops are not on my "Want"  list. Add to that the dolphin smoothness - lawdy, lawdy. In a word - NO. :p

[Eyes High]

If I take together Morgan's attitude toward Rick on seeing him shoot Pete and how Rick deals with the ASZers and then Morgan's willingness to use potentially deadly force against Carol

He was using potentially deadly force against someone who was charging at him with a lethal weapon after saying that she would kill him. It's inappropriate to frame this as poor Morgan brutalizing innocent Carol with "potentially deadly force." He was entitled to defend himself and did so. He would have been well within his rights if he had in fact deliberately killed her. Someone whom you've seen murder other people tells you that they intend to kill you and charges at you with a knife? All bets are off at that point. You'd be stupid not to try to kill them, and it's to Morgan's credit that he made even a token attempt to avoid killing her.

to protect the Wolf (and I think he was defending the Wolf, not himself in that scene)

If someone tells you to hand over your wallet or they'll kill you, and you refuse, and they attack you with a knife as a result, you're not "defending your wallet" when you defend the attack; you're defending your own life. Morgan's own life was at risk. Carol told him that she would kill him. She charged at him with a knife. Morgan had every reason to believe that she would kill him. It was self-defence.

I think the unrepentant murderer is safer because Morgan has decided that they are just crazy like he was and can be saved. So any murderous action can be forgiven and he just needs to control the murderer long enough to get them to come around like he did.

That same logic enables him to give Carol and Rick the benefit of the doubt and not write them off as coldblooded murderers despite having seen them commit murder before his very eyes; he even saw Carol murder an unarmed prisoner. Where would Carol be if Rick had decided that she was too great a risk to the group to be allowed back in, even after saving their lives? Where would Carol be if Tyreese had refused to forgive her for Karvid, or for killing Lizzie? Where would Rick be if the group had disposed of him, horrified, after he told them that he "killed [his] best friend" for them?

People like Carol and Rick on the other hand, Morgan knows they aren't crazy. They just disagree with him. And if push comes to shove, he'll protect the murderer who he sees as lost and defenseless in this world.

Rick and Carol were protected that way as well, by people who forgave them and gave them second chances despite their horrible deeds of coldblooded murder: killing Shane, killing Lizzie, killing Karvid, killing Pete, etc. If people treated Carol the way she treats everyone she writes off as a "threat," she'd have been long dead, which she seems to have conveniently forgotten in her haste to murder the Wolf.

I love Carol, don't get me wrong, but bitch needs to take a seat. A realization that she doesn't have all the answers and that her ostentatious shows of badassery and/or dominance cause as many problems as they solve would be very good for her. It's no coincidence that the two big crises in 6x08--Sam being disturbed by Carol's warning to the point of calling for his mom at the worst possible time, Carol distracting Morgan--were caused by Carol's fuckery. In relation to the thread, I think Carol and Morgan might be brought closer by a mutual humbling: Morgan realizes that he shouldn't have concealed the Wolf's presence, and Carol realizes that she shouldn't have forced the issue and tried to murder Morgan.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Eyes High

[Ocean Chick]

Someone whom you've seen murder other people tells you that they intend to kill you and charges at you with a knife? All bets are off at that point.

 

 

Interestingly, the 5 wolves the Morgan encountered during the attack were intending to kill him and charged at him, yet at no point did Morgan lose his cool and body slam them.  He just kept hitting them with his stick and knocking the breath out of them, or bruising them.  They were all healthy enough to run off after a couple of minutes of sparring with him.  Too bad he lost his cool with Carol.  He definitely realized he'd lost it too, with the look on his face right before Wolfie knocked him out. 

[Ohwell]

Naw, Carol needed to be body-slammed.  If he'd just hit her with the stick she might have gotten up.

[CletusMusashi]

Well, in Morgan's defense, he's been onscreen for a few episodes longer now. That means the writers have had that much more time to pussify him. At this point, he's lucky if he can even take down one person.

Next episode he won't even be able to arm wrestle Judith.

Edited December 7, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[rab01]

In the writers' defense, this fight progressed more like the fight with the wolf he captured, ending in him knocking his opponent unconscious. The difference was really his opponent's level of determination. 

 

[note to self - stop defending the writers -- now, I need a shower]

[NoWillToResist]

To be fair, I think if Carol had been minding her own business or had even been unarmed and Morgan had beat her up, the fact that she wasn't his wife wouldn't make him any less of a piece of shit. However, I do think there's a meaningful distinction between "a man attacks a woman" and "a man attacks a woman who is coming at him with a knife with a stated intent to kill him."

 

Oh, I completely agree. She was going to go through him - killing him on the way - in order to kill the Wolf. Morgan had to (in his mind) defend himself to defend the Wolf. I disagree that the Wolf should have ever been spared, but that's irrelevant at this point.

 

I would argue that Morgan kind of screwed them anyway. I mean, it's one thing to kill someone in self defense or in defense of others (e.g. when the Wolves were literally attacking and murdering people). But Morgan had the dude "secured" and he was, for all intents and purposes, a prisoner. Carol wanting to just go in and murder him under those circumstances makes me uncomfortable. That is murder/execution. And I think that should have been voted on by the community.

 

I fully understand (and agree) that the Wolf was a threat, even just sitting there, but it's hard to be all "yeah, man, gut the fucker" when he's not actively doing anything. :)

In the writers' defense, this fight progressed more like the fight with the wolf he captured, ending in him knocking his opponent unconscious. The difference was really his opponent's level of determination. 

 

[note to self - stop defending the writers -- now, I need a shower]

 

I'm not sure I'd equate whacking someone with a stick to bodily lifting someone off the ground and slamming them onto a concrete floor. Frankly, I was amazed that her skull wasn't split open because as far as I could see, she didn't get a chance to soften the blow against her head.

 

In fact, I kind of call bullshit if she's up and about in the next episode.  She already had a concussion and then got slammed with extreme prejudice onto concrete. So many things should be broken...