S04.E06: Lost Souls

[Guest]

LOL yeah. The flashbacks are absolutely pointless. I think the whole thing with the love interest is pointless too. She adds nothing. I also don't like how much flashback Oliver sounds and looks like present day Oliver. Man, I hated that wig but I kind of miss it now. WELP.

[catrox14]

I have a question. Felicity said she's not the girl that loses herself to a guy....but isn't that what she did with the hacker guy? Is that just bad writing or am I misremembering?

[mommalib]

Felicity was getting on my damn nerves. The only one who hasn't this season is Oliver.

[AyChihuahua]

I don't think "Spartan" is accurate for Digg.  Spartans were very warlike...Digg's only a fighter for others, not for the fun of fighting.  It's a cool word, just not really accurate.  I guess "Soldier" is just too simple?

[Happy Harpy]

Line of the day: "I'm married, he's straight". Love Curtis!

 

OTA sighting! This was not a drill! OTA had a scene! And Oliver/Diggle! Is it Christmas early? I loved all the Olicity goodness, but that brotherhood scene between Diggle and Oliver had me beaming and giggling and I loved it so much. S.Amell and D.Ramsey have such a wonderful chemistry.

 

Donna, I love you, please stay. She's as fabulous as Charlotte Ross' figure.I thought that Donna and Quentin had chemistry! I loved his smile in the end, it felt like real smile, it reminded me a bit of Oliver's when he first met Felicity.

 

I don't want to hear anymore that Felicity is a Mary-Sue. She's a smart, badass, wonderful woman who has flaws. She doesn't deal well at all with being unable to help, and being unable to fix what she thinks are her mistakes.

I don't think she blamed Oliver for her frustrations with Ray's plight, or her fear to lose herself. She stressed that it was her choice to come with him. She said quite forcefully, when he mentioned it could be his fault, that it was hers. That's why, in spite of doing all the "right things" and being supportive, Oliver couldn't help her. I think he understood that when he gave her space -which was imo the only right solution. I felt for him, a lot, but since Felicity thought that the issue came from her, she had to deal with it herself. I think that her tear at the dinner showed that she felt for him, too.

And once more, Oliver/Felicity fits the show, for me. In this episode, it fit the narrative, it fit the character development. I don't think I'd have enjoyed an episode with a relationship issue at the center of it, if it wasn't so organic and actually, realistic. After the artificial, forced conflicts of S3, it's a relief to see how it was handled this time.

And they're beautiful and hot and really, they're so great together.

 

Ray didn't annoy me. Sara kicked ass, so much, I feel for her, really can't we keep her?  Alex isn't Roy but not agravating so far. N.McDonough really gets the villain thing, he isn't too campy in his acting, thankfully considering the material (more a bit later).

 

I thought that the guy who chained Oliver had a similar built/way of moving as D.Ramsey, so I wondered "Andy?", but it was indeed Diggle. Should I be sad or afraid? Definitely, I'm watching too much Arrow.

 

I had three issues, though:

-Damian Vador. It was visually cool. N.McDonough, again, makes it work. But no. Metahumans and magic are just not my thing and I still don't think that magic fits this show.

-The flashbacks. In S1 and part of S2, they gave a balance to the show, for example by being action/suspense heavy when there was more character development in the present timeline, and vice-versa. I don't know where they're going with those, maybe the destination will make the journey worth it, but I don't see that they complete the current events this season. Poppy's line about "taking people away from their family", though, was a stone in the garden of my pet theory, "she's a relative of Anatoly's".

-Sara telling Laurel she "owed her everything" had me retching. I  agree 100% that there should have been more Sara and Thea, I feel that the characters conveyed more closeness and understanding in the little interaction they had, plus I think that C.Lotz and W.Holland have more chemistry and work better together. But (hopefully) Sara is free of worshipping to the altar of Saint Laurel and being used in order to prop her. It's Arrow's loss, I hope it will be Sara's gain in term of storylines and respect given to her character.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Guest]

So how much do we bet that Oliver told Donna about the ring, considering she dropped that mention about wanting him to be her son-in-law. Or was it just another hint that a proposal is coming?

[Kymmi]

I need to know what Oliver writes about in his journal when he's shirtlessly chilling in bed. 

 

I need an academic study in this.  More scenes ... you know, to get to statistical significance.  For science!

[AyChihuahua]

Technically Chicken Cordon Bleu is ham and Swiss rather than bacon but now I want it with bacon instead cause that sound yummy.

 

She did not use the words "I am sorry"  or "I am apologizing"  or "I was wrong" but she express that.  And I feel she did genuinely apologize when she thanked Oliver and fessed up that she'd had a mini gargantuan freak out.  Admitting to what she'd did was more than good enough for me.  And thanking Oliver for being so great when she was freaking out (which covers all the sniping) is letting him know that he didn't do anything wrong.  I think as long as the intent is clearly communicated, that's what counts, not just a handful of specific words.

First, bacon makes everything better.

 

Second, I'm going to sleep on it, but then I may accept that what you've said, along with "We found ourselves in each other," may cover her apology.  To be clear, I still really dislike her behavior tonight and think she really, really needs to get a handle on her tendency towards nastiness.  It also makes me sad that he thought she was going to dump him.  But he should feel much more confident now, and that probably does MOSTLY count as an apology, so I can probably roll with it.

 

Not an episode I'm going to rewatch, though.  Too much uncomfortableness.

Edited November 12, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[statsgirl]

Oliver spent season 3 telling Felicity he loved her but refused to be with her.  Maybe if he hadn't kept pushing her away so cruelly and had been in a relationship with her, he wouldn't have been worried here that she was going to dump him.

 

I have a question. Felicity said she's not the girl that loses herself to a guy....but isn't that what she did with the hacker guy? Is that just bad writing or am I misremembering?

I don't know if she lost herself to Cooper that much. She was still strong and stopped him when she found out what he wanted to do with her hacking.  She was herself.

 

Last season with Ray was worse and she became pod Felicity from Nanda Parbat until she finally broke up with him but that was more a failure of the writing than the character.

 

She doesn't want to be the girl who loses herself in the guy.  My theory is that she's seen it happen too many times, from Donna to her friends to other women in Las Vegas and she always fought against that happening to her.  And then suddenly, she realized that she hadn't been there for Ray when he needed her because she'd run off with Oliver.

 

But even with that, she still worked with Team Arrowless behind Oliver's back. So I don't think she actually was that girl, it's just what she was afraid of becoming..

Edited November 12, 2015 by statsgirl

[La Dee Da]

I think I loved Oliver's reaction to Felicity the most. Old Oliver probably would have bailed and found the first willing lady.

A lot of people on Twitter think that Oliver thought Felicity was going to break up with him. Thoughts?

I thought the show did a nice (but more subtle) job bringing Oliver's relationship issues to the surface. His conversation with Digg was great - showing his insecurities about whether he is good enough for Felicity, that he compares poorly with Ray, whether the summer was just an unsustainable fantasy. While he chose some potentially sub-optimal relationship strategies (I think you check in with the girlfriend on a mom-in-law visit when the relationship is that complicated), his heart was in the right place. And Felicity acknowledges that at the end when she thanks him for how he responded to her freak outs - I think that I like that it was a "thank you" rather than a clear "l'm sorry" as she's validating what he brings to their partnership. And that he should feel secure.

I hope in next week's show there is a moment to send Sara on her way - the resurrection storyline has a definite feeling of "next!" To it at this point.

I would love to see some of the Donna-Oliver texts!

[AyChihuahua]

Oliver spent season 3 telling Felicity he loved her but refused to be with her.  Maybe if he hadn't kept pushing her away so cruelly and had been in a relationship with her, he wouldn't have been worried here that she was going to dump him.

Believe me, I am all kinds of okay with Oliver getting payback for his HORRIFIC S3 behavior.  I have made it clear that I came within a hairsbreadth of hating his guts in S3.  I just don't think/want Felicity to be about getting payback, bc she's better than I am, and wanting payback is not healthy in a relationship.

[Lady Calypso]

Aww, everyone got a little bit of character development, or at least relationship development, in some way this episode. Oliver/Felicity, Felicity/Donna (implied Donna/Oliver too), Donna/Quentin, Sara/Laurel, Thea/Alex, Diggle/Oliver, Diggle/Oliver/Felicity and even Ray got some moments with Felicity and Oliver! You see, that makes me happy. 

 

Oliver was amazing this episode. With being so patient with Felicity, not jumping on any decisions with Sara (loved how she immediately turned to Oliver as if he was still the leader), and getting to have conversations with Diggle, I just feel good about Oliver this season. I've always liked him but I was also frustrated with his stubbornness to make decisions for others. Now, he's in a really good place and I'm happy that he's happy. Felicity was being less than her chipper self, but that's bound to happen. I can get snippy and frustrated on occasion, especially in high stress events, so of course she's bound to be less than pleasant with Oliver. I'm just happy he didn't get upset back and I'm glad he thought smart about giving her that space but also being open for her to talk to him. Plus, Donna's speech to Felicity was well done. She is so rooting for those two. And Donna and Oliver talk! I guess since Oliver has no other adult figures in his life anymore, Donna's going to be the closest thing, and every boy needs a parental figure. 

 

I know Felicity didn't necessarily apologize at the end, but she at least implied it. She thanked Oliver for being patient, and they did talk it out. Plus, Oliver has no ill feelings toward her. Some people just have really, really bad days and it's not necessarily their fault. I'm just glad things got resolved, and I'm glad Oliver temporarily considered Felicity's relationship with Ray before Diggle talked him out of sheer jealousy. I think I love TA when they're all talking. Now, can we get some Diggle/Felicity up in here? 

 

Donna/Quentin? I ship it already. Plus, laughable that Felicity and Laurel could potentially be sisters. And Sara having issues? I'm proud that she admitted there was definitely something wrong, and it's good that she did notice. Of course I'm not pleased that Sara praised Laurel for bringing her back, but I expected it so I was prepared for that happening. Plus, who wouldn't be happy at the person who brought them back? Maybe some people, but I don't think Sara remembers what happened before her death (or, should I say, when she died) so maybe it's not a big deal that she doesn't remember. 

 

Diggle's temp code name? I'd love the gag of the season to be Felicity (and the others?) going through nicknames for Diggle. And I want the finale to end with Felicity and Oliver deciding a nickname for Diggle, whilst Diggle gives one to Felicity. 

 

Alex is not the most interesting character, but I so love Parker Young so damnit if I don't want him to stay a bit longer and not become evil! Plus, I'd prefer Roy to come back, but Thea deserves some happiness at the moment, so...I say go for a temporary Alex/Thea relationship! 

 

I mean, at least Oliver's winning a bit more with DD. 

[Chaser]

I've decided my favorite scene is the OTA/Married Couple fight. David Ramsey and his face tipped the scales. 

[inconstancy]

I really enjoyed this episode. I was pleased not to find anything particularly nonsensical or rage-worthy (in the present day stuff, anyway; I skipped the flashbacks), especially after the last couple of weeks.

 

I didn't have much of a problem with Felicity's behaviour because I could sympathise with her extreme guilt over Ray. I honestly feel sick just thinking about being away while someone I cared about was desperately calling for help for weeks on end and eventually being trapped and held hostage (in a glass box, no less!). I'd feel guilty if I'd been away working with orphans and blind puppies, let alone off happily travelling the world. Felicity's reaction was to lash out, which is okay with me, especially since it doesn't even last longer than an episode.

 

I also think I didn't find her particularly mean because there's one piece of dialogue that I've never been able to stop thinking of as the most cruel and awful thing anyone has ever said on the show: Laurel telling Oliver, 'I'd hoped you'd rot in hell a lot longer than five years'. I know that doesn't mean no one else can ever say things deemed to be "mean", but I always find myself comparing "mean" comments to that, and thinking, 'Well, you didn't tell someone they should have rotted in hell for longer than five years! I forgive you!'. Although Digg telling Oliver a few episodes back that he doesn't have a heart came really close to unforgiveable territory for me.

 

To the good things! I LOVED Donna and her bubbly personality and that she gave Felicity hot milk with a side of great advice. I loved Digg being wise and reasonable and saying vodka is for wimps. I loved Oliver being supportive and willing to cook dinner for the Smoaks, despite Felicity being snippy at him.

 

I liked Felicity's little squeal and Curtis' delighted "woo!" when they jumped. So cute. DD's comment to his minion that "just because I understand science doesn't mean I'm not bored by it" made me laugh. I would have liked more of Sara interacting with the team, though. Mostly I want more Sara, but not on a different show.

[statsgirl]

I don't think she was trying to get payback at all.  This was just Felicity in neurotic hyperfocused mode.

 

I think Oliver knows he hurt her last season and that he didn't treat her well, and that contributed to his insecurity that she would break up with him.  He knows he done her wrong,and while it was good in Ivy Town (for him at least), it wasn't the real world of Starling City and he was worried their connection wasn't secure enough to get past this..

 

Speaking of which, now that Ray's alive can we go back to Starling City?  Please?

 

ETA:

 David Ramsey and his face tipped the scales.

DR was hilarious when Oliver lied and then admitted he'd already arranged for dinner.  This is Oliver's flaw, he loves dinner and brunch parties.

Edited November 12, 2015 by statsgirl

[SmallScreenDiva]

And Felicity acknowledges that at the end when she thanks him for how he responded to her freak outs - I think that I like that it was a "thank you" rather than a clear "l'm sorry" as she's validating what he brings to their partnership. And that he should feel secure.

 

*nods* I think I belong to the Erich Segal school of no apologies: "Love means never having to say you're sorry." Oliver and Felicity both knew the thank you was also an apology. 

 

But even with that, she still worked with Team Arrowless behind Oliver's back. So I don't think she actually was that girl, it's just what she was afraid of becoming..

 

That's my thinking as well. I could see how Felicity would think she lost herself because, well, she did uproot her entire life to be with Oliver. Sometimes it's the fear more than the actual thing that's gonna trip you up. And that's why what Donna said works for me: "Just don't get in your own way." 

[BkWurm1]

I have a question. Felicity said she's not the girl that loses herself to a guy....but isn't that what she did with the hacker guy? Is that just bad writing or am I misremembering?

Yeah, I agree that she doesn't WANT to be that girl and likely before Cooper and definitely for a loooong time after Cooper, she wasn't that girl.  I think with Ray she threw herself into almost a character but always deep down knew she was still independent and had clear control of her heart around him so from that stand point, no, she wouldn't have been one to have lost herself in the relationship.

 

Did a rewatch to examine how Felicity was reacting. 

 

The first bit of crankiness when she told him Ray was alive and in trouble and his reaction was making her take time to stop and shower and nap, it really didn't bother me.  It was cranky tiredness pure and simple.  She even acknowledged it. 

 

Then later, Oliver really did dig a huge whole by springing her mother on her.  I mean, even after he'd dragged her home to try and make her sleep and shower (everyone really wanted her to shower, lol) and then she ran back to work, he still didn't warn her or try to intercept Donna.  He completely deserved her being upset about all that. Really sucky timing.  I have no idea what he was thinking.

 

But there was a moment when he wanted to come with her to PT when she was going to pull up the plans for the deshrinking ray (I feel like there should be a pun in there) before she knew about Donna and yeah, she shut him out and not kindly.  So I do think she was already at that moment deep into the guilt over not being there when Ray needed help and seeing Oliver as her weakness. 

 

She was losing it after she found out where Ray was and I'm sure it was galling to have both Oliver and Dig gang up on her.  Oliver may have learned how to juggle disaster in his life and put on an everything is fine façade in between, but again, it was overreaching and not listening to what SHE needed at that moment. 

 

Of course in the end it was more than Oliver trying to be helpful in the most boneheaded way  - he did really mess up with first springing Donna on her and then going ahead and making dinner plans while she was freaking out (I like to think he made them before he knew but it's hard to know and I doubt Felicity was feeling charitable at that point) 

 

Their fight real fight one hand was lovely because it wasn't snipes or jabs but real feelings and communications but oh, it hurt!  Oliver walks away feeling like Felicity regrets being with him, Felicity is afraid that being with Oliver is something she isn't strong enough to be allowed.  Oliver walking away was beautifully mature but oh, so hard since it's so easy to let those fears build up when apart even if that space is what you need to figure out your own head and heart. 

 

Sometimes it takes the actual fight to get to the heart of the matter.  I don't think Felicity had done much more than internalize her guilt about not being there because she chose Oliver before the fight started.  I don't think she understood what she was upset about, fear of losing herself and the even bigger fear that she would then have to lose what meant most to her since she didn't know how not to lose herself in Oliver.  SOOOOOO glad her mom was there to help her get past her fears. 

 

Someone interviewed said their favorite scene was in the bedroom and didn't involve sex.  That conversation between Donna and Felicity was a thing of beauty.  As was the matching scene with Diggle and Oliver.  

[Happy Harpy]

So how much do we bet that Oliver told Donna about the ring, considering she dropped that mention about wanting him to be her son-in-law. Or was it just another hint that a proposal is coming?

The way I see her, I don't know if Donna would have been able to contain her excitement in case she knew about the ring. I'd see her more dragging her daughter to a wedding dress shop or something, "juste to have a look, just in case, you never know *OMG it's totally happening I'm so happy smile*", and tip her off on the whole proposal. I could picture her being extra, extra chipper. But she has unsuspected depths so maybe she does know.

Is it weird that I'm more interested in this than in whatever is happening on the island?

[Ann Mack]

Maybe they'll tease a number of code names before they finally tell us which one it will be.

Don't know why but I totally went to Shawn (Psych) and how he use to introduce Gus with a different name every show!

[quarks]

A filler episode, granted, with more Legends setup, also granted, but with some major character moments. Also plenty of jokes. So overall a win - it won't go down on my list of one of Arrow's greater episodes, but it was fun.

 

Good things:

 

1. Ok, yes, Curtis Holt is teetering very close to over the top perfection, but I'm still loving the actor in this. Plus the, "You're married, he's straight. You're married, he's straight." We're all with you, Curtis. We're all with you.  And we've all said things we don't really mean to an HR department, so again, we're all with you.

 

2. Ray didn't annoy me!  I count this as a win. 

 

3. Donna Smoak is back in her inappropriate short dresses! Yay! Loved her immediate realization that now, if ever, was a great time for takeout, and her scene with Felicity.

 

Also, I'll admit it: so far I'm on board with Donna and Quentin.

 

4. Awww, Oliver is all jealous and insecure and needs Diggle to pour him some booze.

 

5. Really liked that Arrow addressed some of the Oliver/Felicity issues straight on: neither one of them grew up with an example of a happy relationship, Felicity seems terrified of losing herself, Oliver realizes that he doesn't have her tech genius and sometimes wonders why she's with him, and both of them can snap at each other.

 

Also liked that Arrow addressed the other elephant in the room: Oliver and Felicity might not have been able to save Ray any sooner had they stayed in Star City, but it's understandable that Felicity could feel guilty about this.

 

6. Also liked that Oliver was - gasp - being supportive. Talk about character growth. And that he immediately got to the heart of what she was talking about. The strength of this relationship has always been that they can understand what the other one is really worried about. It reminded me of the moment back in 213 when Oliver assured Felicity that she wasn't going to lose him.

 

7. I liked that Felicity showed quite a few flaws tonight - the tendency to overwork past the point of efficiency, a tendency to get obsessed, something she shares with Oliver, a tendency to feel guilty about things she shouldn't feel guilty about (Ray got himself blown up, Felicity, thanks), something else she shared with Oliver. Plus she got in a couple of good quips. 

 

Also liked that Felicity, in turn, got immediately to the heart of Oliver's concern - that he's worried she'll leave him, thanks to her need not to lose herself/her skill at computers. I think addressing that concern was more important than the apology, which was probably coming up after important things like far too much clothing was addressed.

 

8. Also liked that Felicity sort of has an outfit for when she's out in the field. And speaking of which, the Curtis/Felicity ziplining was hilarious - not just Felicity's ongoing fear of heights but Curtis' shock that it worked.

 

9. Team Arrow just deciding to listen into all of the stuff about emojis until Diggle finally shut them up.

 

10. Thea wasn't in the episode much, but deciding to pursue a sort of normal life with the hot guy? Go for it, Thea. The guy might never be Roy, and he seems to be feeding you some unhealthy Chinese food, but for all we know sex is another way of dampening the bloodlust. You go, girl, you go.

 

11. Liked the way most of the episode focused on something that should be coming up: that normal/ok, my life is really strange balance. Not just the difficulties of trying to explain that the chicken cordon bleu isn't going to work out because you have to chase down a cop to get him to arrange an evil meeting with an evil guy so you can trap the guy who has your girlfriend's ex trapped in a tiny box -- I have completely lost control of this sentence. Where was I? Something about balance. Something this show is not good at, but it's nice to see so many characters trying for it in their different ways.

 

12. The Oliver/Diggle scene. More of this, show.

 

13. And yes, Dinah Lance is alive. That's good to know, I guess. I did have to laugh that her response to her daughter's resurrection was something along the lines of "Oh," because at this point, who, really, is surprised by any of the Many Returns From Death of Sara Lance?

 

Questionable things:

 

1. So, you're on an evil island where you are trying to grow and harvest illegal drugs. Do you, a) inspired by the example of Pablo Escobar, focus on what is sure to be a lucrative project, leaving you with enough money to just BUY your own island, or b) decide to follow a man you barely know down through a hatch into a complex of evil tunnels and then decide to go do what you call an "archaeological dig" and what the rest of us call "a lot of people jumping into water so that Oliver Queen can have a wet shirt?"

 

That's what I thought.

 

2. Speaking of the flashbacks, what, exactly, is going on with Poppy the Cave Lady, and how is she staying alive if Oliver is only bringing her these small meals in a box once per week? Does she have water? The magic island herbs?

 

3. What on earth is Oliver writing in his journal, and just how many fanfic writers are going to be trying to answer that question this week?

 

4. I said I liked Donna and Quentin, and I did, but the two of them just happening to meet up at a bar? Just how big is this city?

 

Oh, right, Arrow has said that people keep leaving it. Ok, fair enough, but if Star City is really that small, does it really need this many vigilantes?

 

5. Felicity, given that bad guys have come into the QC/Palmer Industries building and Palmer Industries BLEW UP, I think you really do need to consider ensuring that your employees do have health insurance that covers things that explode, things that go really really quickly, things that do not conform to the laws of physics, things related to evil islands and evil hot tubs, and arrows.

 

Bad things:

 

1. I sincerely hope that the rumors about the larger budget for Legends are true, because holy Batman were there some questionable effects work and sizing shots here, to the point where I was completely jolted out of the show when Curtis turned the gun whatever on Ray. (I think there may have been some props continuity errors there as well which certainly didn't help.)

 

This was always going to be questionable, but it's worse now that Ant-Man is out there. Going back to Arrow, I think those shots demonstrated that Arrow, at least, is better off sticking to a more realistic mode, and leaving the superpowered effects work to Flash and Legends.

 

2. I'm not sure that squeezing both the "Sara realizes that she's still suffering from bloodlust" and "Save Ray" plots in this episode was the best idea. Partly because this again meant that a great deal of this episode was spent on characters who were already well established on Arrow but heading over to another show, which for one episode isn't a huge deal, but becomes more problematic when both plots have already been running for several episodes. Having said that, I think the real problem was that both plots ended up getting shortchanged at the end. Sara, for instance, didn't get to confront Thea, and the whole "Save Ray" bit was both far too fast and too easy, even if Oliver did have to suffer getting chained up a bit (though that bit was good for me). They find him, engineer a method to enlarge him in the space of a single day, enlarge him, and he's all back to chattering about insects again as if nothing much had happened. That sort of thing belongs on Flash, not Arrow.

 

3. Speaking of Sara, let me get this straight: so, Sara, realizing that she's still filled with an unstoppable bloodlust that puts every semi-innocent security guard in her vicinity into severe danger, decides that what she really needs is some downtime in a normal city, and thinks that Central City is the best place to find this? And then head to Coast City after this, where absolutely no one will be able to stop her from indulging in that bloodlust? That sounds great. 

 

Seriously, I realize that she was dead throughout Flash's first season and she's only been back for a week, but given that almost everyone on Team Arrow knows that Barry Allen is the Flash, and everyone on the show is aware of metahumans, is it really asking too much to clue the girl in?

 

4. Arrow, I don't know what that prop was supposed to be, but it didn't really look like chicken cordon bleu. Were we meant to think that Donna just started sorta cooking a random chicken she found in the fridge, instead of just heating up the pre-prepared chicken cordon bleu? And why exactly did Donna start cooking instead of waiting for Oliver to show up? He wasn't that late.

 

5. I realize I'm the only person on this forum who would put this under "bad things," but where's Malcolm? He's only appeared in one out of six episodes so far? What is this?

 

And now, Laurel:

 

Further proof that Laurel is better in small doses. Also that even in small doses, Arrow still doesn't always know what to do with her. And that Laurel works much better when she's allowed to just be, instead of forcing the show to justify her actions or even her existence. 

 

As an example of both, Laurel (and Katie Cassidy) were fine in the early scene where Felicity was attempting to explain what happened to Ray, because she wasn't trying to justify herself or ask anyone to think about what she was going through. I also liked her skeptical tone about the whole thing - sure, metahumans are one thing; people going boom and then getting really small is another, and the narrative needed someone to explain how hard it would be to find Ray. But every single one of her lines in that scene could have been given to either Thea or Diggle (and would have been given to Diggle in earlier seasons) without changing a beat; nothing in them said "Laurel."

 

(In fact, it's very possible that given David Ramsey's reported back injuries at about this time, those lines were originally given to Diggle - Arrow went out of its way to have Diggle not appear or get to sit down whenever possible in this episode, except during the Oliver/Diggle conversation. At this point, Oliver really can't talk about his relationship with Felicity with any of the other regulars on the show except possibly Thea, and Diggle has traditionally been Oliver's mentor for that sort of thing. The earlier lines, though, could have been given to Katie Cassidy to make things a bit easier for Ramsey.)

 

Plus, Laurel being Laurel, her record of failure remains strong, if not quite as overwhelming in this episode!

 

Number of times Laurel fails as an attorney: Didn't come up this episode, unless we're counting her failure to help out with Oliver's political campaign, and even I'm not that critical of Laurel.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a vigilante: 1) failing to do much of anything to find Ray, making not-exactly-a-member-of-Team-Arrow-yet Curtis more useful than she is; 2) failing to stop Sara from beating up the security guard, 3) failing to stop Sara from killing the other security guard, further loading Sara down with guilt, 4) allowing a bloodlust filled former assassin head off to Coast City, like, ok, Laurel, we realize that you don't really care about other people, but what did Coast City ever do to you? 5) Consistently being out fought by her sister, who pulled off some spectacular leaps and maneuvers in this episode. As we've discussed elsewhere, it's probably just as well for Laurel that Sara is taking off: the comparison really does Laurel no favors. 

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a human being: Just one, but it's a biggie. Over and over in this episode, Sara kept noting her need for normal. She brings it up the first time Team Arrow is out in the field with her - while admitting that for her, this sort of thing is normal. It becomes very clear after she severely beats up the security guard. And yet, other than letting Sara follow her into the field, does Laurel do anything to provide that normalcy? No, no she does not.

 

I realize that part of the problem here is scheduling - Arrow and Flash have one more episode to introduce Sara over on Flash, however quickly, before the 208/408 crossover episodes, which does not give Arrow time to have those little moments, but even a shot of Laurel bringing Sara a cup of coffee and a donut would have helped. Instead we got a couple of quick references, and Thea, not Laurel, reassuring Sara - which came off partly as Thea also trying to reassure herself. Frankly, campaign dude was doing better with his Chinese food and clumsy attempts to ask Thea out. Laurel didn't even manage that.

 

But the other problem remains that Arrow really does not know what to do with her, with tonight as a classic example. The only characters actually needed in the Save Ray plan were Felicity and Curtis for the tech stuff, Oliver and Diggle to breach the building. The other three were mostly there to have a leather clad fight sequence, and here, Sara was clearly well beyond the skills of either Laurel or Thea, making both Laurel and Thea seem unnecessary - until, that is, they are needed to pull Sara out of her bloodlust.

 

Which they fail to do.

 

So not THAT terrible of an episode for her, all things considered, and at least she wasn't trying to dig up corpses, so that's an improvement. But still not a sign that, four seasons and six episodes in, Arrow has any idea about what to do with Laurel, or how to give her a specific, necessary role on this show that can't be fulfilled by anyone else. 

[pivot]

This might be my favorite Arrow episode. Great character development, fight scenes and humor plus we got a scene where Sara was kicking ass while Laurel was running along next to her hiding behind furniture. Loved it.

[Guest]

It's just been pointed out to me that while they were having some space, Felicity was stretched out all sad on Oliver's side of the bed. It's okay. I'm fine.

[BkWurm1]

Believe me, I am all kinds of okay with Oliver getting payback for his HORRIFIC S3 behavior.  I have made it clear that I came within a hairsbreadth of hating his guts in S3.  I just don't think/want Felicity to be about getting payback, bc she's better than I am, and wanting payback is not healthy in a relationship.

Felicity has never been one that needs tit for tat.  I think we can chalk the public jabs up to having been up with no sleep for several days.  Tired takes away the filter.  Tired and annoyed even more so. 

 

The timeline is a bit wonky again (no surprise)  She's changed clothes since last week when she first heard the message but are we to believe she went a week without telling Oliver about Ray being alive?  Plus,  she said the message was only six days old and we first heard her listening to it at the end of 4-4.  At the end of 4-5 they find the rest of the message including the part where he's alive.  Does that mean that Laurel bring Sara home from NP, locking her in her basement, Sara escaping and running around on a killing spree, and the Constantine Consult all happened in less than a week?  Sara just in this episode talking to her mom supports it. 

[BkWurm1]

4. I said I liked Donna and Quentin, and I did, but the two of them just happening to meet up at a bar? Just how big is this city?

 

Well some might call it lucky.  Others would call it fate.  ;)

[lemotomato]

I found this episode, or the Felicity parts, incredibly unpleasant to watch. She was mean above anything she's ever been before (aside from the no-feelings thing in 302), and not only did Oliver do nothing wrong, he was actually doing everything very right. Including telling her mother that a visit would be a good idea and trying to get her to take a break, twice. It was...really off-putting and, for me, was absolutely not resolved by the final scene in which she STILL did not apologize to him. She thanked him for trying and HE apologized! For doing nothing wrong! For not "listening," or something which doesn't make any sense because she wasn't talking to him!

 

So. Yes, I really, truly loved how Oliver handled all of this. But...Oliver's not the one who should have had to handle it. It wasn't his problem. He shouldn't have to apologize. And basically what he learned in this was that the woman he wants to marry regretted their summer together? And that he should just GTFO the way if she's struggling with something. Okay! Great!

 

I am one of the people who argued all last season and over the summer that meanness is a part of Felicity's character and I stand by that, uh, clearly. But my point was that I want the show to examine how that is a failing. I want her to be very clearly in the wrong and I don't feel that message so strongly when the person she was honestly very cruel to (the belittling...yikes) is the one who apologizes. Like...why can't this show ever get this right??? UGH, as others said above, I really hate the way Beth Schwartz writes Felicity.

 

Anyway, the show sees this as resolved, so I will too. I'm glad Felicity doesn't still feel like she's losing herself or whatever. And if this episode follows the pattern of the others this season, I'll probably enjoy it a whole lot more the second time around. But this was...not the Olicity episode I was looking for.

I agree with all of this, especially the last part. 

 

Felicity is one of my favorite characters, and I totally understand that her tendency to say cruel things in the heat of the moment gives her more layers than just the personality of a cheery sidekick and loving girlfriend. But what bothered me in this episode was the frequency and degree of that meanness. I was fine with her annoyance and snippiness at Oliver for inviting her mom into town. I thought her defensiveness about being told to shower was understandable. But I was not fine with her putting down Oliver's intelligence several times when he offered to help. I did not like that she continued to snark at him over the comms during the mission after she realized everyone was listening. We get it; she's not nice when she's stressed out, hungry, and sleep deprived. It wasn't necessary to illustrate it in nearly every scene she had with Oliver. And I agree with others that her not actually apologizing to him in the end leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

I'll admit that my discomfort with how Felicity lashed out has a lot to do with my personal experience with loved ones that react to stress like she did. I've been in Oliver's shoes, when all you want to do is help, but everything you do just gets you yelled at more. It's really hurtful to be treated like that. I loved that Oliver showed a lot of emotional maturity when he realized that he needed to give her space and also to open up to Diggle about his insecurities. And the Donna/Felicity conversation was a great scene. But I really don't want to see that side of Felicity again. If I take other characters to task for unfairly kicking Oliver around, I'm not going to excuse my favorite character when she does it too.

 

As for the rest of the episode, Curtis had some really funny moments and I really like how he's fitting in. I loved every Diggle scene. The pseudo-Birds of Prey fight was just as lackluster as all the other group fights this season. I'm irritated but not surprised that we didn't get to see Sara really interact with anyone other than Laurel and Thea. I'm not a fan of SmoakNLance, so I thought the time spent on their meeting could've been spent on other scenes that needed to be fleshed out. At first I thought that Thea and campaign manager scenes were cute but unnecessary, until the last shot of her looking really uncomfortable, and I realized they're setting her up for more bloodlust troubles. Good acting by WH there.

 

Oh yeah, and Ray's back. Whatever. When can he leave?

 

Overall, I really liked certain moments in 406 (the Olicity makeup/makeout at the end, Felicity-Donna and Oliver-Diggle conversations, shirtless Oliver lounging in bed!) rather than the episode as as a whole. Which is a shame, because Lord knows, maybe there's only one Felicty-centric episode this season like the last 2 years.

Edited November 12, 2015 by lemotomato

[Guest]

Felicity is one of my favorite characters, and I totally understand that her tendency to say cruel things in the heat of the moment gives her more layers than just the personality of a cheery sidekick and loving girlfriend. But what bothered me in this episode was the frequency and degree of that meanness. I was fine with her annoyance and snippiness at Oliver for inviting her mom into town. I thought her defensiveness about being told to shower was understandable. But I was not fine with her putting down Oliver's intelligence several times when he offered to help. I did not like that she continued to snark at him over the comms during the mission after she realized everyone was listening. We get it; she's not nice when she's stressed out, hungry, and sleep deprived. It wasn't necessary to illustrate it in nearly every scene she had with Oliver. And I agree with others that her not actually apologizing to him in the end leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

Yeah, this was the real low point for me too. I do think they went overboard with how upset/neurotic/annoyed she was and I never like anyone insulting anyone's intelligence. I really hope this behavior was a one-off because I don't want to see her be so mean again. I just rewatched some scenes and ouch. 

 

I'm still pleased that they're writing her with flaws though. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by Guest

[thegirlsleuth]

Being on the west coast, I became concerned about the reports I was seeing on twitter about Felicity being super-b*tchy. I was glad to see my fears were unfounded.  As a person who has been asked by those closest to her "when is the last time you ate?" when I get a temperamental, her edginess at the beginning made complete sense. And I kind of liked that this is yet another episode in which Oliver has to be compassionate with someone who is exhibiting behavior similar to what he has done in the past.  Felicity's lashing out while becoming obsessed with a mission and pushing those she loves away is right out of the Oliver Queen handbook, and he handled it beautifully and kindly, even reaching out to Diggle to ask for advice.  Much like when he talked with Diggle about his secret keeping and Thea about her rage (and less successfully with Laurel's desire to protect her sister), I am really feeling Oliver as a hero and a leader this season.

 

Also, I went to Olicity Queen's youtube channel because I wanted to rewatch the OTA dinner party discussion scene because I wanted to double check something about the dialogue. She hasn't posted that scene yet, but the bedroom scene is up and it has almost 2000 views and it is only 10:30 pst. Stay golden, Olicity fandom.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Also, I went to Olicity Queen's youtube channel because I wanted to rewatch the OTA dinner party discussion scene because I wanted to double check something about the dialogue. She hasn't posted that scene yet, but the bedroom scene is up and it has almost 2000 views and it is only 10:30 pst. Stay golden, Olicity fandom.

 

What's your question about the OTA dinner party discussion? I've got the ep in the DVR.

[thegirlsleuth]

What's your question about the OTA dinner party discussion? I've got the ep in the DVR.

 

It was more just to double check an impression I had.  A lot of the Oliver/Felicity comedy this season has reminded me of the screwball comedies of the 1930s, with Felicity's rapid fire delivery and Oliver's straight man delivery.  It first hit me in the scene where Oliver invites Lance into the lair, and I just think it has developed.  This idea is more about my own weird enthusiasms than anything that will add to the understanding about the show., and I wanted to rewatch the scene to see if my initial impression held up.  

[Starfish35]

This was a pretty solid episode. I don't actually have a lot of complaints. Yeah, it would have been nice to hear Felicity say "I'm sorry", but I got where she was coming from, and I felt like the scene at the end was, if not an actual apology, at least an acknowledgement of her bad behavior. (Not saying her behavior was justified, but you can say a lot of things you wish you hadn't said after going for a while without sleep - personal experience talking. Also, things tend to look so much more horrible and catastrophic without sleep too.)

Curtis is still great. I'm looking forward to him being in on the secret.

Laurel is.....better (although "better" is relative) in small doses, but as quarks said more eloquently above, she still is totally unnecessary to any part of the story that doesn't have to do with Sara. Still, at least her screen time was minimal.

Speaking of Sara, that would probably be my one major complaint. They spent very little time dealing with Sara's reactions to coming back from the dead. That part felt very rushed. Even the fight was trimmed down from what was shown in promos. And as I feared, not one word about Nyssa. But that line from Sara to Laurel....what was it? "Always and forever"? That sounded a lot like foreshadowing. Don't get my hopes up, show!

Edited November 12, 2015 by Starfish35

[Moya the Leviathan]

that journal is a wedding planner, mark my words.

-- honeymoon destinations with WiFi

-- suggestions for wedding party gifts (code name cufflinks)

-- chuppah floral decorations -- Sherwood Florist

-- personal shopper suggestions for mother of the bride outfit

-- insurance rider for catering hall needs glass replacement

-- how to tactfully describe Nyssa to Great Aunt Agnes?

-- ?? Zip line baby Sara down aisle as flower girl?

[BkWurm1]

Yeah, this was the real low point for me too. I do think they went overboard with how upset/neurotic/annoyed she was and I never like anyone insulting anyone's intelligence. I really hope this behavior was a one-off because I don't want to see her be so mean again. I just rewatched some scenes and ouch. 

 

I'm still pleased that they're writing her with flaws though. 

The initial comment she made about him not being able to help unless he's learned to code suddenly, that didn't play to me as a pot shot at his intelligence, just a basic fact since what she wanted him to do was let her go back to work on it so to me it played as just another argument from her as to why she should not have to stop BUT she said it snarky enough that she felt bad and tried to walk back her sniping.  Again, that one was pure tired and frustration. 

 

The second time was a rejection of Oliver even more so than any skill he could bring.  Given what she was feeling guilty over - that basically Ray was paying the price of her getting lost in Oliver - I don't think she would have let him help even if he was a tech expert equal to Curtis.  She was being blunt to the point of being unkind but I think the aim of her words weren't at his skills or ability and certainly not his intelligence, but at his mere presence and to get him NOT to come with her (and be a constant reminder of what she was drowning in guilt over) she just shut him down hard. 

[EmilyBettFan]

Diary/cook book dishes by Oliver Queen.

[BkWurm1]

But that line from Sara to Laurel....what was it? "Always and forever"? That sounded a lot like foreshadowing. Don't get my hopes up, show!

 

I agree that it means something.  I've not believed for a second that Laurel is getting killed off but yeah, I hear what you hear.  It sounded like a good bye between sisters.  I suppose it could be just that, Sara's big goodbye to Laurel before going off to LoT where she'd be popping around in time enough to make the 'always and forever' more of a reality but ALWAYS and FOREVER, those are more than just words you use describing going back in time.  It would be a line more suited for one of the Hawks to say since they were destined to meet again and again in every lifetime. 

[Starfish35]

Oh one thing I forgot. That last scene with Thea asking out Alex. I don't think that was just about Thea wanting a normal life. The struggle on her face after he left - I think the bloodlust is starting to return, and she's trying to fight it by doing normal things. Willa Holland was great - I've been really impressed by her this season. The look on her face when Sara tells Laurel she gave her a gift. Thea knows better than anyone that it may not be a gift she wants.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Starfish35

[BkWurm1]

Diary/cook book dishes by Oliver Queen.

It could just be boring Mayor stuff. 

[SleepDeprived]

This was a great episode. So much character-building and interactions. I loved this episode. I'm probably going to re-watch this episode many times, even though Palmer's in it.

 

I did feel uncomfortable at some points because, whoa, Felicity was really mean to Oliver in a couple of scenes that I just really wanted to give him a hug. I understand how people have a tendency to lash out like that, especially toward the ones they love, and I do know she felt guilty and afraid. Also, since I have the added benefit of coming here and reading all y'all's well-thought out posts about Felicity's mental/emotional state and Oliver's wonderful growth in how he handled it, I really do get it. I'm not totally fine with how she acted with him but I get it. Anyway, I'm still just really digging everything about Oliver and Felicity in a relationship so much this season. Who knew the Arrow writers had it in them to write a mature, healthy, loving couple with realistic issues that really works and be able to interweave them into the narrative so seamlessly? I certainly didn't. Did they all do a refresher course on creative writing (with special emphasis on how not to screw over most of your characters, especially the lead) or what?

 

OTA had scenes! And it was hilarious (loved DR's reaction shots). Oliver/Diggle bromance! And I'm interested in Alex for Thea. Donna is always welcome to visit Star(ling) City, of course. I adore her. The fact that she truly likes Oliver and wants Felicity to marry him makes me really happy. The Donna/Felicity talk was, probably, my third favorite thing this episode. Also, I'm still very much enjoying Curtis. I do agree that he's very much a Gary Stu but I like him, regardless. I loled when Curtis couldn't think of anything to say regarding Felicity and Donna's similarities.

 

Why did the group need 5 masked people to get the quantum manifold from Kord Industries? Bit of overkill for two security guards noh? Too many masks, show. Not being utilized well. Meh. Although Oliver's little stunt descending from the roof looked cool. And Chatty Cathy was funny.

 

Did Palmer take a bath the whole 6 months that he's been teeny? I'm hoping he did because why not take a dip in some puddles or a doggie bowl every now and again? I would, if I was miniaturized, since I take hygiene very seriously. But then Palmer's unkempt, oily hair and smudged face seemed to imply that he's been pretty grimy since he blew up, especially since he's still wearing the same clothes from the blast. Which, by the way, must be some hella fire-resistant threads because that blast decimated the entire top floor of PT but didn't even singe a single fiber of Palmer's clothing--even though he was at the center of the explosion. I mean, he could've found some doll clothes somewhere if the show can't have BR be naked the whole time. Anyway, I don't know if stinky Palmer was what they intended but he looked like he must've reeked something fierce because of the styling. Is having to be hygiene-challenged (and dead/thought to be dead) for some length of time a requirement for LoT, at least, for the Arrow characters involved? There's something he can bond with Sara about, I guess.

 

What is up with Darhk's puzzle box? The way that he kept going on about the "new life" he will be breathing into the city makes me think that he's trying to, maybe, resurrect something locked in/from that puzzle box? They really are doing something like the Mayor storyline from Buffy s3, aren't they? And using the dark star matter residual energy or whatever on the puzzle box, what's that about? Maybe, that puzzle box is Brainiac-related (the circles and diagrams kind of made my brain think of him)? Anyway, I guess my point is that I have no idea what Darhk is doing/planning/wanting/smiling so lovingly at that puzzle box for. I hope the resolution for Darhk's big bad evil plan doesn't end up being lame.

 

But that line from Sara to Laurel....what was it? "Always and forever"? That sounded a lot like foreshadowing. Don't get my hopes up, show!

 

Couple that with how Laurel's storylines seem to be getting wrapped-up with Sara's impending spin-off, the lack of anything for her in 4B, plus Diggle's could-be-meta line of "what we see on paper, doesn't work in real life" and I can almost really trust the 'Laurel is the one in the grave' theories. Yeah, Digg meant Felicity and Palmer's screwball romantic comedy show within the show (which fell flat and sucked, sorrynotsorry AK and MG) but that meta line could also work on the many times Arrow writers have tried to make fetch happen. I Want to Believe.

[looptab]

I need to know what Oliver writes about in his journal when he's shirtlessly chilling in bed. 

Don't we all? :) 

I loved this episode. Great moments between the characters I love. Mama Smoak is wonderful, that scene with her and Felicity is one of my favorites ever. As much as watching Felicity being all snarky and mean was uncomfortable, I get that because I'm the same. And I also liked that Oliver didn't start snarking back, cause that's what I do when I'm on the receiving end of the snark, and it gets ugly quickly. 

 

Too little Sara is bad, but little Laurel is good. :D

 

So, apparently those BTS pictures of the Smoaks and Oliver with the stuffed animals were just them fooling on set, not from an actual scene? Pity.

 

Oliver, stop bragging about your cooking! (never stop, actually)

 

"Now I see were Felicity got her.......hair from!"

"Chatty Cathy". That's just the best.

 

 [whoever said this is Beth writing her -- you're totally right!],

 

Beth definitely doesn't write Felicity well though. 

 

Taking these^ to the Felicity thread :)

[bijoux]

I need to know what Oliver writes about in his journal when he's shirtlessly chilling in bed. 

 

Dear diary, been here shirtless for 68 seconds and Felicity still hasn't pounced. Are we getting stale? Should I have put on the grey sweatpants? She can sense those from a distance of 60 feet.

 

 

Ooh, love Team Arrow seeing up Oliver to get “captured” by Damien’s henchmen. Loved Oliver being a badass. And Damien being an even bigger badass. That thing with the chains was pretty damn awesome. And Oliver getting loose of the chains was even more awesome.

 

 

When he kicked DD in the face I was like YESSSS, but then when he got strangled with the magic chain snake I was like nOOOOOO, and then when he kabloomed his way out of it I was like YESSSSS again.

 

And if villains weren't so obsessed with evil monologuing, THEY WOULD FIND OUT WHO THE MASKED GUYS ARE 100% OF THE TIME

 

I loved Oliver being allowed to be a bad-ass this episode. Both with the whole chain sequence and rappelling down to Kord Industries earlier in the episode. Also love how their plan hinged on DD's need to speechify.

 

That's the one with cheese and bacon inside, right?  Fried, with coating?

 

Yeah, can I please marry Oliver?

 

On the same page with Donna, I see. You're never gonna find a man that hot who cooks. A+ reasoning, Mama Smoak.

 

I am so angry that they made Sara fucking THANK Laurel for dragging her body all over the city and digging it up from the grave and putting her in a pit and turning her into a crazy person.  Fuck you show for doing that. And Laurel STILL made it about herself.  So sick of the Laurel propping.

 

I decided to write that off as Sara still not being in her right mind. She's obviously missing chunks of her memories, which was shown in her not being able to remember Dinah's story. It sounds like something that would be mentioned from time to time. Could also explain why she hasn't mentioned Nyssa. But the truth is, they never picked the ball off the floor with Sara's coming back. She's just going in the field with Laurel and Thea, not even asking what that's about? On the other hand they have Thea speaking about the bloodlust as if she's cured, when she knows she's not, and she's only temporarily stable since she killed a few dudes three weeks ago.

 

 

And Diggle's reaction :p

 

 

[cue Dig's tone from back in S1 when Oliver said he would have put an arrow in him if he had decided to reveal his secret]Oh, really? Really? I wouldn't know seeing as someone never offered to cook it for me.

 

I'm also a little disappointed that Oliver, Felicity and Donna didn't go to Dig's place in this episodes since there were BTS photos of the three on that set. Although it's kind of cute that the actors decided to hang out there, even though the set wasn't used.

 

I liked Donna and Quentin's scene, with them bonding over their love for their daughters.

[wingster55]

I don't know...ep wasn't bad (though not great IMO) but it felt like the Oliver/Felicity hour with everyone just there. Even the "previously " signified.

And come on...couldn't fit in one scene where Sara and Thea discuss what happened?

On that note...I thought that Sara leaving would be because she couldn't fully control the lust around Thea.

Edited November 12, 2015 by wingster55

[BkWurm1]

It really surprised me that they had Donna and Quentin meet up entirely on their own. Still, with a last name like Smoak, there's no way he wouldn't at least wonder about the connection. I am really curious how they develope their relationship. I initially thought they would just share some random smooches at the Queen for Mayor Christmas party, but either they are going to bump into each other all surprised to see their fling from a few weeks ago or they will have been seeing each other since. So which is it going to be, one night fling or a relationship?

I don't know...ep wasn't bad (though not great IMO) but it felt like the Oliver/Felicity hour with everyone just there. Even the "previously " signified.

And come on...couldn't fit in one scene where Sara and Thea discuss what happened?

On that note...I thought that Sara leaving would be because she couldn't fully control the lust around Thea.

I was surprised it wasn't aimed at Thea as well. Maybe that part she controlled?

[bijoux]

It really surprised me that they had Donna and Quentin meet up entirely on their own. Still, with a last name like Smoak, there's no way he wouldn't at least wonder about the connection. I am really curious how they develope their relationship. I initially thought they would just share some random smooches at the Queen for Mayor Christmas party, but either they are going to bump into each other all surprised to see their fling from a few weeks ago or they will have been seeing each other since. So which is it going to be, one night fling or a relationship?

I don't know. It could have been just drinks even though they maybe felt something and then it plays like you expected it to.

 

Am I crazy or did Felicity look extra pretty in this episode? Stress and lack of sleep make her snappy on the one hand, but on the other her skin is glowing.

 

What is up with their final scene not being at least 10 seconds longer? Although I'm certain someone will slow it down and post it on Youtube. Please link if you find it first.

[cambridgeguy]

Isn't there a new high speed rail between Central City and Star City?  Regardless, Dinah couldn't head over to see her resurrected daughter? 

 

Speaking of Central City, it's actually a little surprising that what happened in this week's Flash didn't show up on the news.  If Oliver's Green Arrow speech made it over there then the same would happen.

 

All Quentin needs now is to be five days from retirement - it'd be stunning if he isn't the dead person from the premiere.

[bijoux]

Isn't there a new high speed rail between Central City and Star City?  Regardless, Dinah couldn't head over to see her resurrected daughter?

 

There's also flying. Dinah caught the red-eye once when she was leaving Starling City. But yeah, not at all surprised she hasn't come to see her daughter who's been back from the dead and re-souled for a week. That's just Dinah.

 

ETA: I just love they way Darhk is shaping up. He's menacing and chill but at the same time he has his playground bully moments. Him breaking that Arrow was just so small and petty. I howled with laughter. Love.

Edited November 12, 2015 by bijoux

[looptab]

One thing I liked a lot was the team planning and collaborating for the rescue mission. We don't see that, that much anymore these days: they just find out where to go, then start fighting. While this time they had to consider how to infiltrate the place, and what to do next. It felt a lot like season 2.

(When Oliver gets hit I was starting to yell "Damn, once you could sense people coming at you from floors below! and then I realized it was a set up. Very good).

[FurryFury]

Holy shit, the way they've handled Sara's resurrection was HORRENDOUS. Everything about it felt unnatural and forced. Also, Laurel/Sara have no chemistry whatsover (but then, it's Laurel, what could you expect), and with the whole history between them, the "I love yous" looked so fake I almost laughed at that moment.

Also, I call bullshit on Sara deciding to leave while still being affected by the curse-magic-whatever stuff. Doesn't make any sense.

 

As a non-Olicity shipper, I liked them in this episode. Felicity's issues felt real and true to me. I know what it's like to lose yourself in a relationship, and it's not pretty (and I'll do everything in my power to not let it happen to me ever again). 

 

The streak of nice and likable Oliver continues! At least I'm glad that me reacquainted with Arrow happened to coincide with the rehabilitation of his character. I remember I used to like him in season 1 before all the horrible hypocrisy of s2 with Thea and Moira. He was adorable with Felicity this ep, while normally I had the impression she deserves better.

 

Alex the campaign manager is totally shady, at least I hope so, because shady means interesting and Thea deserves an interesting and dynamic love interest after boring-ass Roy.

 

I still don't have much of an impression about Ray Palmer, but holy shit, he looked REALLY hot. Yum.

[dtissagirl]

One thing I liked a lot was the team planning and collaborating for the rescue mission. We don't see that, that much anymore these days: they just find out where to go, then start fighting. While this time they had to consider how to infiltrate the place, and what to do next. It felt a lot like season 2.

 

And S1 too. It reminded me of infiltrating Merlyn Global. [Was it Global? I forget.] Every time the mission needs strategic planning, and them being smart about infiltrating some place they shouldn't be, I find the action scenes much more interesting -- especially when it's this kind of spy film stuff when there's a planned sequence of events that the team needs to go through step by step. This is my favorite kind of action, because it gives meaning to the stunts within the narrative.

[Morrigan2575]

Speaking of Sara, that would probably be my one major complaint. They spent very little time dealing with Sara's reactions to coming back from the dead. That part felt very rushed. Even the fight was trimmed down from what was shown in promos. And as I feared, not one word about Nyssa. But that line from Sara to Laurel....what was it? "Always and forever"? That sounded a lot like foreshadowing. Don't get my hopes up, show!

As soon as I heard it I said "Death Omen"

 

My friend said that they dropped one for Lance in 401 as well, when Felicity told Oliver that Lance "Was wrong, dead wrong" about Oliver.  We all know the red herring that is Felicity, she's gotten a few, the direct cut from happy Olicity to grave, the line about the Board Meeting being in 6 months (exactly when the Flashforward was set) and most recently being the target of evil masterminds (or whatever it was).  I can't help but wonder if there were others in 402-405 that were missed?  Are they doing death anvils for all characters or just Lance/Laurel and the red herring Felicity?

[Jediknight]

that journal is a wedding planner, mark my words.

-- how to tactfully describe Nyssa to Great Aunt Agnes?

There aren't a lot of shops in Nanda Parbat, so I hope Oliver's not expecting Nyssa to get a big ticket item from their registry.  Also he's got to make sure that Nyssa and Sara sit together.

[looptab]

And S1 too. It reminded me of infiltrating Merlyn Global. [Was it Global? I forget.] Every time the mission needs strategic planning, and them being smart about infiltrating some place they shouldn't be, I find the action scenes much more interesting -- especially when it's this kind of spy film stuff when there's a planned sequence of events that the team needs to go through step by step. This is my favorite kind of action, because it gives meaning to the stunts within the narrative.

Same. And it also gives much more sense to having all those fighters in, it gives everyone a purpose if they have different task than the generic 'fight goons' for everyone.

And yes to Merlin Global. That was the best :)