S04.E06: Lost Souls

[Chaser]

I saw a lot of cranky and snarky and neurotic, but I didn't find Felicity 'bitchy.' To me that has more of a negative vibe. Like there is some ill-will, but with Felicity I saw her as tunnel visioned and stressed out and slowing blaming herself for Ray's situation. And then Donna coming back reminding her of her parents relationship and her and Oliver getting so serious and the fear that comes with that. I just get it. I love that I got it. That they had her explain her mind frame to Oliver and then to her mother. That her mother addresses Felicity's own environment growing up. I loved that. 

 

That being said…I felt for Oliver. But the way he handled it was amazing, you could tell he was hurt and confused. 

 

I honest can't say what my favorite scene was: Diggle/Oliver or Felicity/Donna. They were both so good. The character growth. I'm drowning in it.

 

The rescue Ray mission was actually a lot of fun. I enjoyed Curtis being on the team and clueless - however, didn't he see Diggle's face? Ray didn't bug me, that something.

 

Couple little things. Stressed out Felicity would have worked better if she was shown working on the Ray stuff instead of Curtis. The frustration slowly building and what not. I'm really annoyed with how they are doing the whole Sara thing. No finding out about Diggle naming his daughter after her, no scenes with Oliver, no scenes with Felicity, no scenes with Lance, no I-killed-you-conversation with Thea, there wasn't even an initial reaction to Laurel suiting up or taking her name.

 

Donna and Lance. Still don't care.

Edited November 12, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[calliope1975]

This episode, however, made me more certain about Laurel's death especially with Sara thanking Laurel. There seemed to be a finality to it. 

 

I'm not sure who's in the grave, but while there was a nice moment between Sara and Laurel, I was so sure we were going to get a passing of the Canary torch. I'm very, very glad that didn't happen. 

 

I am, however, absolutely positive it's not Felicity. No way does the guy we saw tonight shed a single manly tear if Felicity dies. He'd be gutted.

[Primal Slayer]

Why the hell would they cut this iconic shot?

 

No me gusta.

[DavidJSnyder]

One thing I missed was the resizing. Felicity suggests the shoot through the glass and use the enlarging to break the glass, they say it won't work but that's exactly what they did?

Yes, I don't understand how Ray powering up his suit from a camera was supposed to be helping them penetrate the polymer. It felt like some part of an explanation got lost. Edited November 12, 2015 by DavidJSnyder

[HighHopes]

IDK why Felicity being mean to people is new to some people. She tends to be mean when she's under a lot of duress. 

• When she snapped at Oliver after Sara died
• Snapping at Ray when Oliver died
• Snapping at her mom when her virus was spreading
• Being passive aggressive to Oliver when Clock King was kicking her butt
• Snapping at Oliver when Ray was being a dick in 3x17

 

I'm glad they're continuing on with this because it's obviously a part of her character

 

She was pretty snappy and snarky as far back as 2x10 too. I like that she is, because it shows that she isn't perfect and that she does have some flaws. 

[Carrie Ann]

 

Guys, he's literally re-reading his own journal, probably trying to find out where it all went wrong...

 

Yes, Felicity was out of line for most of this and I don't like how she spoke to Oliver in front of other people (although I did like how everyone smiled at their fight-y banter on the comms - even Laurel smiled!!). But if this is what it takes to make Felicity a flawed and fleshed out character then okay. No but seriously. Oliver did nothing wrong and she was so mean! Kind of reaffirms that I'm not that keen on how Beth writes Felicity.

 

I think Olicity was just experiencing relationship growing pains tonight, or at least Felicity was.[...] Yes, Felicity was sniping and rude, BUT LOOK AT HOW OLIVER HANDLED IT!! That man loves her! Her temporary bitchiness under such enormous pressure was the perfect foil for his emotional maturation. And by the end, they both grew up just a little more and even closer.

 

Yeah, I cringed at Felicity throughout this episode for the most part. She really can be pretty mean (TOTES MARY SUE!), but Oliver handled it so well.

 

 

I found this episode, or the Felicity parts, incredibly unpleasant to watch. She was mean above anything she's ever been before (aside from the no-feelings thing in 302), and not only did Oliver do nothing wrong, he was actually doing everything very right. Including telling her mother that a visit would be a good idea and trying to get her to take a break, twice. It was...really off-putting and, for me, was absolutely not resolved by the final scene in which she STILL did not apologize to him. She thanked him for trying and HE apologized! For doing nothing wrong! For not "listening," or something which doesn't make any sense because she wasn't talking to him!

 

So. Yes, I really, truly loved how Oliver handled all of this. But...Oliver's not the one who should have had to handle it. It wasn't his problem. He shouldn't have to apologize. And basically what he learned in this was that the woman he wants to marry regretted their summer together? And that he should just GTFO the way if she's struggling with something. Okay! Great!

 

I am one of the people who argued all last season and over the summer that meanness is a part of Felicity's character and I stand by that, uh, clearly. But my point was that I want the show to examine how that is a failing. I want her to be very clearly in the wrong and I don't feel that message so strongly when the person she was honestly very cruel to (the belittling...yikes) is the one who apologizes. Like...why can't this show ever get this right??? UGH, as others said above, I really hate the way Beth Schwartz writes Felicity.

 

Anyway, the show sees this as resolved, so I will too. I'm glad Felicity doesn't still feel like she's losing herself or whatever. And if this episode follows the pattern of the others this season, I'll probably enjoy it a whole lot more the second time around. But this was...not the Olicity episode I was looking for.

[Chaser]

Why the hell would they cut this iconic shot?

 

No me gusta.

I didn't even notice. Yeah that's an odd one to cut. 

[wonderwall]

HE IS SUCH A PUPPY:

 

 

And Diggle's reaction :p

 

Edited November 12, 2015 by wonderwall

[EmeraldArcher]

At this point I want Laurel to say "You know me, always trying to save the world". 

 

Death curse activated!

 

You know she wants to say it because she loves herself being a hero.

You win!! You win forever!

[apinknightmare]

 

 

He's like, sounds good, I'd like to try that. Dinner party with the Diggles next time.

[Morrigan2575]

And Diggle's reaction :p

I think DR had to keep his hands in front of his face the entire scene because he couldn't stop laughing. Pretty sure he was having a giggle fit

[Sakura12]

At least someone still recognizes Oliver as the leader of Team Arrow. 

[Princess Vanellope]

At least someone still recognizes Oliver as the leader of Team Arrow. 

She looked so beautiful in this episode. Being resurrected looks good on her!

[Angel12d]

I found this episode, or the Felicity parts, incredibly unpleasant to watch. She was mean above anything she's ever been before (aside from the no-feelings thing in 302), and not only did Oliver do nothing wrong, he was actually doing everything very right. Including telling her mother that a visit would be a good idea and trying to get her to take a break, twice. It was...really off-putting and, for me, was absolutely not resolved by the final scene in which she STILL did not apologize to him. She thanked him for trying and HE apologized! For doing nothing wrong! For not "listening," or something which doesn't make any sense because she wasn't talking to him!

 

So. Yes, I really, truly loved how Oliver handled all of this. But...Oliver's not the one who should have had to handle it. It wasn't his problem. He shouldn't have to apologize. And basically what he learned in this was that the woman he wants to marry regretted their summer together? And that he should just GTFO the way if she's struggling with something. Okay! Great!

 

I am one of the people who argued all last season and over the summer that meanness is a part of Felicity's character and I stand by that, uh, clearly. But my point was that I want the show to examine how that is a failing. I want her to be very clearly in the wrong and I don't feel that message so strongly when the person she was honestly very cruel to (the belittling...yikes) is the one who apologizes. Like...why can't this show ever get this right??? UGH, as others said above, I really hate the way Beth Schwartz writes Felicity.

 

Anyway, the show sees this as resolved, so I will too. I'm glad Felicity doesn't still feel like she's losing herself or whatever. And if this episode follows the pattern of the others this season, I'll probably enjoy it a whole lot more the second time around. But this was...not the Olicity episode I was looking for.

 

I understand and I agree to an extent. I think Felicity should have apologized because she was really mean and it was a bit uncomfortable to watch. Especially when he was just offering his help and she snapped at him. Just unnecessary. That said, I find that I'm so pleased they're writing her not to be completely perfect all the time that I don't mind so much? I like that she's messing things up and doing things wrong because that makes her character more real to me. She really was in the wrong though. No doubt about that.

 

Also as Felicity's doubts about going away for the summer felt like they came out of nowhere, I find that it was less about that and more about her placing the guilt and blame in the wrong place? I genuinely don't think she regrets her summer away with Oliver at all and it was said in the heat of the moment when she's tired and grumpy but I do think that could have been clarified at the end. They didn't really leave much time for that. Another way they rushed the resolution again.

 

Beth definitely doesn't write Felicity well though. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by Angel12d

[AyChihuahua]

I understand and I agree to an extent. I think Felicity should have apologized because she was really mean and it was a bit uncomfortable to watch. Especially when he was just offering his help and she snapped at him. Just unnecessary. That said, I find that I'm so pleased they're writing her not to be completely perfect all the time that I don't mind so much? I like that she's messing things up and doing things wrong because that makes her character more real to me. She really was in the wrong though. No doubt about that.

As others have said re LL specifically, I'd like consequences and reactions from other characters when people behave poorly.  I did not like that she didn't apologize, and in fact Oliver apologized to her.  That feels like her behavior was basically considered to be fine in-show.  I get that their "love" scene was a reconciliation, but I would have liked to see a real apology.  (Just like I would have liked to see, not just hear about, Oliver apologizing to Digg.)

Edited November 12, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Morrigan2575]

Also as Felicity's doubts about going away for the summer felt like they came out of nowhere, I find that it was less about that and more about her placing the guilt and blame in the wrong place? I genuinely don't think she regrets her summer away with Oliver at all and it was said in the heat of the moment when she's tired and grumpy but I do think that could have been clarified at the end. They didn't really leave much time for that. Another way they rushed the resolution again.

They came out of her guilt and fear. If she wasn't off being happy and in love all summer she would have been there to get Ray's messages. I think that manifested into her feeling that she was lost in Oliver.

Felicity seems to be written as someone who is very independent and has massive walls about because of her father. I think a lot of that was just all wrapped up into side and it all came out because she was guilty, tired, manic, focused etc. I thought the Donna/Felicity discussion worked because it showed all of the things rattling around in Felicity's psyche.

[Ann Mack]

Yeah Oliver totally thought Felicity was going to say "take a break".

https://youtu.be/4FMO_W2YB7c

 

You could totally see the worry in his face that she was about to say something that his heart wasn't ready to handle! Stephen did such a good job tonight with his facial expressions.

[statsgirl]

From the Spoiler discussion thread:

But this wasn't just about Ray, this was about her and who she was. So guilt was part of it, but the part where she mentioned not being the kind of woman who lost herself in a guy had to have been festering for a while. Maybe it happened over the week she was looking for Ray, but it seemed like something that had been niggling in the back of her mind while they were gone. The whole issue didn't come out of nowhere for me, only part of it.

The "being the kind of woman who lost herself in a guy" seems to me to be something she might have seen Donna doing while she was growing up.  First with her father (Donna said "I gave him my twenties" along with her love) and then possibly through some bad relationships Donna had later on.

 

I can see the teenage Felicity determined not to let that happen to her, to study really hard and make something of herself and never to be the kind of person who gets lost in a guy, and then suddenly finding out that she is. And worse, because of it she wasn't there to help a friend who needed it.

[Morrigan2575]

I would agree that'she all tied up in her childhood. He father'said abandonment, maybe how her mother dealt with getting left and maybe seeing her mother in some man crazy relationships.

I've seen women (especially young girls) who get so wrapped up in a guy they lose all self identity. I don't think mama smaok was link that but who knows? I just think it really comes down to Felicity being so guarded/protected about herself/emotions

[nksarmi]

I'm not sure who's in the grave, but while there was a nice moment between Sara and Laurel, I was so sure we were going to get a passing of the Canary torch. I'm very, very glad that didn't happen. 

 

I am, however, absolutely positive it's not Felicity. No way does the guy we saw tonight shed a single manly tear if Felicity dies. He'd be gutted.

My very manly, all about the action other half said, "they'd never kill Felicity, it would kill the show."  So yea, no way it's her.

 

I'd be VERY surprised if it was Laurel, but not because it wouldn't make sense - just because they seem so unlikely to write her off even though she doesn't feel like she fits anymore.

[FortKnox]

Keep in mind I'm from Tennessee, so when Diggle told Oliver real men drink Tennessee Whiskey I cheered out loud. That is all. ;)

[calliope1975]

I can see the teenage Felicity determined not to let that happen to her, to study really hard and make something of herself and never to be the kind of person who gets lost in a guy, and then suddenly finding out that she is. And worse, because of it she wasn't there to help a friend who needed it.

 

Not only that, but as mentioned above in the thread, she lost herself in Cooper, too, and that ended quite poorly for her. Badly enough that she completely reinvented herself, minimized her abilities, and got a crappy job in IT. While I would have loved to see an actual apology to Oliver, I think TPTB could have seen the discussion with her mother as the realization and didn't want to repeat that. I'm good. I can imagine the actual apology in between the make up sex. Why yes, there was more than one bout. 

[Primal Slayer]

Can they please start using codenames when out in the field? Yelling Saras name multiple times isn't smart. I am surprised more people haven't found out everyones identities by now.

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

Guys, tap the breaks on the sniping at each other please.  It's not ok to be rude to other posters or fans. 

[EmeraldArcher]

Keep in mind I'm from Tennessee, so when Diggle told Oliver real men drink Tennessee Whiskey I cheered out loud. That is all. ;)

Given that you're from Tennessee, can you confirm that's where Lian Yu is located? The show heavily implied that when it used the leaf on the bottle to transition to the island. ;-)

[wonderwall]

Keep in mind I'm from Tennessee, so when Diggle told Oliver real men drink Tennessee Whiskey I cheered out loud. That is all. ;)

I went to Tennessee once. And I gotta say. I hated biscuits before. But I left Tennessee loving them :p

[thuganomics85]

So, Ray's finally back, now.  OK, I actually don't mind because as much as I disliked him at first, I did think he was better in his final episodes, because everyone was getting annoyed with him, instead of being all "Ray is the greatest man of all time!  All hail Ray, he can do anything!" about him.  So, I kind of enjoyed him because we still got moment of him being a cheeseball, and seeing Oliver and Diggle all "You are such a dweeb" about him.

 

Anyway, this interestingly really wasn't about him, but all about Felicity.  I definitely was getting annoyed with the way she was treating Oliver in this episode.  I did find it realistic and it is totally in character, but it can be hard to watch at times.  But I do think that is Felicity.  Whenever something arises that shakes her, she can pretty much lash out at everyone, including Oliver.  I do wish they had her apologize more (if anything, it felt like they were making Oliver be the more guilty party, which I'm not sure I agree with), but I'm glad it seems like it has made them stronger, instead of put a wedge between them.  I so did not want another round of keeping them apart and all angsty (plus the risk of Ray creeping back in there.  I will always have that fear...)

 

Oliver though, surprisingly handled it way better then I would have expected.  Instead of lashing back, he seemed to realize that something was up and was just "OK, you clearly need some space, so find me when you need to talk", and just left her be.  Good call, Mr. Queen!  Plus it led to a bonding scene with Diggle which is always a good thing.  The show really could use more Oliver/Diggle scenes.

 

Donna Smoak!  I love her.  Charlotte Ross continue to be perfect in the role and still extremely gorgeous.  I love that Donna and Oliver actually have a friendship, although I can totally understand why that pisses Felicity off.  And I totally can't believe they are going there with Quentin.  I mean, I know Paul Blackthorne was totally pushing for it, but I'm still surprised.  Which makes me think he is totally going to be the one in the grave.  Give him happiness, before taking it away.  Unless.... could it be, Donna?!  I could see her causing Oliver to shed a tear.  But that would be horrible!

 

The stuff involving Laurel and Sara was sadly kind of lame though.  It just felt so rushed and convoluted.  Sara has the same blood-lusty feelings Thea has and can't contain it, so instead of sticking around, she's just going to run off and figure it out.  OK, then.  I would have almost preferred that she said what really is going on and be "Sorry, got my own spin-off to head!  Sure, goofy Ray is coming with me, but I get to hang out with Wentworth Miller and Victor Garber!"  Of course, what I really wanted to hear was her saying she was going to try and find a way to break-out poor Nyssa.

 

Flashbacks continue to be useless.  I miss Slade.  And Shado.  Even Yao Fei.

 

Thea gets a new boyfriend with campaign guy.  Please don't make him evil, show.  Thea doesn't need to have that happen again (fucking DJ Douchebag...)

 

Neal McDonough is killing it, but Damien is going to need to step it up after the performance Zoom gave on Arrow's sister show.

[EmeraldArcher]

To all of you GIF-making geniuses: Can somebody please create and post a GIF of FB Oliver emerging from the water with those delectable eye lashes? Thank you!

[calliope1975]

So Curtis totally knows Oliver is GA, right? Cuz Green Arrow looks just like Oliver Queen in a lot of green leather, and Curtis is a smart, smart man. 

[apinknightmare]

To comment on something that nobody cares about (not even me, but I'm curious): in the flashbacks, was the guy Oliver killed supposed to be someone? Did we just find out that the bumpkin had his own little tribe or something? Or did Oliver kill one of the workers? I honestly did not pay a single bit of attention.

[Primal Slayer]

Ugh don't even remind me of the flashbacks. Apart from last week, they are still completely useless.

[Chaser]

There were flashbacks?

[AnyoneButYou]

I involuntarily zone out during flashbacks now. I can't remember a single thing that happened.

[wonderwall]

With all the back and forth about Felicity's behavior...

 

Yeah I would've liked it if she explicitly said she was sorry. 

 

But to me, her thanking Oliver for dealing with her and her acknowledging she was having a meltdown was enough for me. I hope she learns her lesson so she doesn't act this way in the future. But for now, it's enough. 

[DavidJSnyder]

The guard who doesn't like Oliver offered one of the workers something to attack Oliver.

[AyChihuahua]

Oliver though, surprisingly handled it way better then I would have expected.  Instead of lashing back, he seemed to realize that something was up and was just "OK, you clearly need some space, so find me when you need to talk", and just left her be.  Good call, Mr. Queen!  Plus it led to a bonding scene with Diggle which is always a good thing.  The show really could use more Oliver/Diggle scenes.

...

Flashbacks continue to be useless.  I miss Slade.  And Shado.  Even Yao Fei.

I think if they had just had her explicitly apologize, I'd have been fine with it.  Apologizing, expressing humility, is incredibly difficult, but also really empowering.  I mean, I HATED that they wrote her as apologizing to the Cane Toad in 3.17, when by no actual Earthling definition was she the one in the wrong in that situation.  So I feel the same here.  She crapped on Oliver, unfairly, so she should have apologized to him.  

 

Flashbacks suck.  Flashback LI is a total fail, and I do NOT feel that way bc of shipping.  I loved Shado.  This chick is a non-entity.  Also not a huge fan of Reiter and his bug-eyed version of acting.

[apinknightmare]

The guard who doesn't like Oliver offered one of the workers something to attack Oliver.

 

Thank you. I have no recollection of that whatsoever. I zoned out after the hieroglyphics or whatever showed up on the wall, because....

 

 

Ah, I even fell asleep writing that sentence. ;)

[calliope1975]

Thank you. I have no recollection of that whatsoever. I zoned out after the hieroglyphics or whatever showed up on the wall, because....

 

 

Ah, I even fell asleep writing that sentence. ;)

 

This was me. I was all, oh they're talking about Constantine. Maybe this will go somewhere interesting. Then - NOPE.

[statsgirl]

The guy Oliver killed was someone who spoke up for the slaves, sort of like a leader among them.  Conklin wanted to get rid of Oliver so he offered the guy an easier time if he would kill the new guard.  But Oliver killed him instead.

 

This is probably going somewhere between Oliver and Conklin (and a better use of the actor than OUaT made) but so far the flashbacks are a substitute for a sleeping potion.

Edited November 12, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

This was me. I was all, oh they're talking about Constantine. Maybe this will go somewhere interesting. Then - NOPE.

 

I just remember getting irritated because Constantine said the top was useless, and it turned out not to be so useless after all. THE ONE TIME I PAID ATTENTION TO THE FLASHBACKS, AND THEY UNDID IT THE NEXT EP. Ugh.

[Sakura12]

I didn't watch last season, do the Flashbacks have a point anymore? They just seem to interrupt the flow of the episode. I think it's time to ditch them. 

[Primal Slayer]

It was such a shame that we didn't get Sara's reaction to all the changes that have happened since her death. Thea/Laurel are now fighters and part of the team full time, Oliver/Felicity are together, and Oliver is especially different from the last time she saw him.

I didn't watch last season, do the Flashbacks have a point anymore? They just seem to interrupt the flow of the episode. I think it's time to ditch them. 

We have 1 more season to sit through them.

[apinknightmare]

Apparently someone said Poppy's real name tonight, and I missed that too! I know what it is, I just have no recollection of anyone actually doing that. Must've been Oliver? I also feel like they're setting her up to have some weird Stockholm-esque thing for him, even though he's technically not keeping her hostage, just bringing her food and whatnot.

Edited November 12, 2015 by apinknightmare

[wonderwall]

What do you guys think of Diggle's new codename? 

 

Spartan...

 

I like the meaning of it... But I'm not sold on how it sounds.

[apinknightmare]

Is it actually a permanent code name, though? Or was it just something that they used tonight? 

[statsgirl]

Maybe they'll tease a number of code names before they finally tell us which one it will be.

[wonderwall]

Is it actually a permanent code name, though? Or was it just something that they used tonight? 

How would you feel about it if it were permanent? :p

 

I think it's permanent. Digg didn't seem opposed to it. 

[BkWurm1]

That's the one with cheese and bacon inside, right?  Fried, with coating?

 

Yeah, can I please marry Oliver?

Technically Chicken Cordon Bleu is ham and Swiss rather than bacon but now I want it with bacon instead cause that sound yummy.

 

As others have said re LL specifically, I'd like consequences and reactions from other characters when people behave poorly.  I did not like that she didn't apologize, and in fact Oliver apologized to her.  That feels like her behavior was basically considered to be fine in-show.  I get that their "love" scene was a reconciliation, but I would have liked to see a real apology.  (Just like I would have liked to see, not just hear about, Oliver apologizing to Digg.)

She did not use the words "I am sorry"  or "I am apologizing"  or "I was wrong" but she express that.  And I feel she did genuinely apologize when she thanked Oliver and fessed up that she'd had a mini gargantuan freak out.  Admitting to what she'd did was more than good enough for me.  And thanking Oliver for being so great when she was freaking out (which covers all the sniping) is letting him know that he didn't do anything wrong.  I think as long as the intent is clearly communicated, that's what counts, not just a handful of specific words.

 

In real life they would have discussed where her freak out came from and post coital I'm going to assume they did, but the audience knew what was going on when she said they were going to be fine because they'd found themselves in each other.  So yeah, apology heard and accepted. 

[nksarmi]

I didn't watch last season, do the Flashbacks have a point anymore? They just seem to interrupt the flow of the episode. I think it's time to ditch them. 

 

Yea and they were really bad this episode because we could have used a couple more present day scenes like the talk Thea and Sara had when she explained the blood lust and a reconciliation between them about Sara's death.  I liked the FBs to Oliver and Constantine last week, but even then, they had so much setup in the past that the actual saving of Sara's soul felt rushed.  If they ever explain how Oliver joined the Russian mob, I might be interested - but this season?  I am not paying attention to the FBs at all.

[apinknightmare]

How would you feel about it if it were permanent? :p

 

I think it's permanent. Digg didn't seem opposed to it. 

 

I wouldn't feel very good about it, haha. 

 

I wasn't sure if it was just for tonight or what, since the only reason Felicity gave for it was because Curtis was there.