S04.E06: Lost Souls

[bijoux]

Same. And it also gives much more sense to having all those fighters in, it gives everyone a purpose if they have different task than the generic 'fight goons' for everyone.

And yes to Merlin Global. That was the best :)

 

Yes. I'm all for capers. We need more of this. Although Felicity won't be able to pose as a Big Belly Burger delivery girl anymore, seeing as she's much more visible these days. She'll just have to use her public persona. And refer to herself in the third person while doing so to creep Dig out. What, she already caught Oliver's overblown sense of guilt, no reason why she wouldn't have picked this up as well.

 

I'm heading towards the end of season 2 in my rewatch and I also really loved them breaking into Applied Sciences to blow it up.

[tv echo]

I liked how this episode illustrated the realities of an intimate relationship - that it's often the people you are closest to that feel the effect of your lashing out due to frustration or guilt or whatever - because you're comfortable enough to not hold back and because they can take it. (Really, how many of us haven't lashed out at a loved one when we're in a bad mood?)  Felicity is a flawed human being, but so is Oliver, so they'll each act irrationally or unfairly from time to time.*  The important thing is that they cleared the air and got past it.  If Oliver & Felicity were always lovey-dovey with each other, it would just be a superficial relationship.

 

(* Hey, remember that Oliver has yelled at Felicity - but of course, a guy can't be 'bitchy' - and emotionally jerked her around in the past, and he even used her as bait to draw out Slade Wilson without telling her first.  Also, I don't think that Felicity was purposefully putting down Oliver's intelligence. She just needed to solve the Ray problem asap and Oliver couldn't help with that, so she was being impatient and snarky. She respects his intelligence or she wouldn't have followed him when he planned all their TA missions.)

 

I loved how this episode reaffirmed that the relationship between Oliver & Felicity is a special thing that neither of them has experienced before.  Felicity never lost herself in her past relationships with Ray and Cooper (disagree with some of you on that).  Oliver never felt insecure in his past relationships with women. The kind of relationship they have is new to both of them, and it's made more difficult by two things.  One, they both grew up with zero examples of a good, healthy relationship because of their parents. Two, they have different backgrounds, personalities and skills.  The good thing is that they recognize these difficulties and are willing to work through them, because they realize the value of what they have.  And their differences just make them stronger together.  As the yin-yang visual of their kiss symbolized, they complement each other.

Felicity (to Oliver): "I lost myself in you, and I was never that girl. That girl who just loses herself in a guy. That is not who I am."

Diggle (to Oliver): "I thought I'd seen it all, but Oliver Queen jealous?"
Oliver: " I'm not jealous. I just got to know if Ivy town was as good as it gets for us, because we've come back here. Everything has just gotten super complicated, and it just makes me wonder, why did she choose me?"
Diggle: "Oliver, I've heard you say a lot of crazy things over the years, but that has to be the prize."
Oliver: "You know what I mean. It takes me ten minutes to log into this thing; Felicity does it in two seconds, and Ray probably invented it."
Diggle: "Yeah, you're probably right. Except, Felicity didn't choose Ray. She chose you. Sure, she has a lot in common with Ray, but sometimes what looks good on paper isn't what works in real life."
Oliver: "What if something happens to him? We don't get him back?"
Diggle: "Felicity Smoak is one of the smartest, most bad ass women on the planet. She comes through this, she'll get Ray back."
Oliver: "You seem pretty sure."
Diggle: "I married a woman just like that. Twice, Oliver, twice."
Oliver: "Yes, you did."
Diggle: "Look, man, relationships have their ups and downs. Sometimes you just have to give it some time, a little bit of space."

Donna (to Felicity): "Do you remember when you were a little girl and I told you you couldn't go to Space Camp? You locked yourself in your room for two days."
Felicity: "Well, to be fair, it was Space Camp."
Donna: "But I told you, I couldn't bear the thought of sending you away for eight weeks. The truth was, hon, I... I couldn't afford it."
Felicity: "Then why didn't you just tell me that?"
Donna: "Because, I was embarrassed, you know, that I had no money; that I had no idea where your father was, and even if I did, he never paid a dime in child support, anyway."
Felicity: "I'm sorry. I had no idea."
Donna: "I put everything into your father. My love, my trust, my twenties. My point is, you... are not me. You are the CEO of a bajillion dollar company. And Oliver, he's not like your father, hon. He loves you. No one has ever looked at me the way he looks at you."
Felicity: "He's wonderful. In a million different ways. But that's the problem. It's too easy to lose myself in him."
Donna: "Baby. That's how it's supposed to feel when you love someone. Believe it or not, he's lost himself in you. And you'll find yourself in each other. Just don't get in your own way. And don't ruin something that most people never get. 'Cause if you do, trust me, you'll never find another guy that hot again, who cooks."

Felicity (to Oliver): "I wanted to thank you. For helping save Ray, and for being so understanding in the midst of my mini-- gargantuan freak out."
Oliver: "Well, I'm sorry that I'm not the best listener. But all of this is just, it-- it's kind of new to me."
Felicity: "And to me. I didn't exactly grow up with the best example of a normal, healthy relationship."
Oliver: "Line forms behind me. It's kind of amazing that we've made it this far."
Felicity: "We're going to be fine."
Oliver: "How can you be so sure?"
Felicity: "Cause we found ourselves in each other."

 

Why did Felicity choose Oliver?  Aside from the fact that Oliver took himself out of the running last season, sometimes there's just something that draws you to someone else - despite differences, despite everything.  Ray was an attractive billionaire who shared similar tech interests with Felicity and should've been her perfect match (as some reviewers shipping Raylicity would've preferred).  Oliver is an unemployed, former assassin with a lot of emotional baggage (and ex-girlfriends).  But, as Diggle said, "sometimes what looks good on paper isn't what works in real life." 

 

Oliver & Felicity share similar traits, beliefs and causes - taking accountability, helping other people and fighting for their city, even at the risk of their own lives.  They bring out the best in each other.  They have seen each other at their best and now at their worst.

 

P.S.  When Felicity reported on Ray's medical condition - "I got your medical tests back, and aside from a very noticeable iron deficiency, all your results are positive." - I wonder if that was the EPs' slam on last season's criticism that Ray/Atom was just Iron Man-lite?

 

P.P.S.  Things we must see, MG - Oliver's journal entries and the Oliver/Donna texts.

Edited November 12, 2015 by tv echo

[kismet]

I've got 4 pages to catch up on. All I have to say is I enjoyed so much of this episode. I think I really love how Antonio Negret directs episode. He makes every scene feel about the characters. Even the action sequences have an emotional feel to them, as dumbed down as they have become. Apparently TA can't even do a simple snatch & grab B&E? But whatever, I guess we had to show bloodlust and give something for the field lady Trio of TA to do since we must do everything as a team this year. While I'm on my bitterness of this ep, why couldn't TIny RP just safely make his way back to Palmer Tech and chill out there? For being a genius, RP is pretty dumb at times. I still think they gave us no good reason why DD was able to capture & find RP. DD wanting the tech makes sense, but the rest of the story dumb & plotty. But that seems to be the trend with the LoT checklist.

 

Back to what I loved. I loved the character moments. I love that the story moved and yet didn't feel rushed. I have no idea why FS was so overly neurotic this episode. But whatever~ EBR delivered an endearing performance even if I thought it was absolutely unnecessary and felt a little forced plot wise. OQ was just priceless this episode. Dig is back to giving good advice. TQ feels like she is in a good place with the struggle to be normal and I get that. SL is moving away, who knew SL would be the smartest person this episode?

 

DD is perhaps my favorite season long villain on Arrow to date. His snark and cockiness is great. He's just great, every moment is pure enjoyment. It's like pure  frosting on his little cupcake of evil. I loved my SmoaknLance moment, it was everything I thought would be good about the characters getting together without being overly cartoonish. MamaSmoak is just a breath of fresh air, but that pink dress was still horrible. Shame on you costume dept, can't you find a sexy tight dress that actually fits? RP didn't annoy me too much. Curtis also felt like he immediately fit in with the team, no awkwardness noted, hmm funny how that can happen for some and not others...

 

Lastly, Vlad told me more about the fb and served a purpose in a few minutes than Poppy has done in her entire run on the series... Remind me again why Poppy is so important? I really am beginning to believe it is so OQ has someone to talk to & explain the plot ~ but at this point I think I would have preferred him talking to a beat up Volleyball. He also could have named it Wilson in honor of Slade, but perhaps Castaway has the rights to talking to inanimate objects on islands.

[benteen]

I enjoyed this episode.  Loved the Olver/Diggle interaction and Oliver/Donna was actually quite a bit of fun.  Lance again has good scenes with everyone.

 

Agreed that they handled the whole Sara ressurrection scene poorly.  Considering how much time Arrow and The Flash have spent setting things up for Legends of Tomorrow, I'm surprised we didn't get more.  Having Sara back out in the field immediately was dumb.

 

Also, how come no one thought to ask Constantine last week if there was anything he could do about Thea (and Sara's) bloodlust?

[Genki]

It's official Ray makes Felicity worse (for me at least).

 

I get Felicity feeling guilty and it is often misplaced, but how was she meant to know that Ray was going to blow himself up, then survive by shrinking? She didn't have anything to feel guilty about, so I would have liked a bit more acknowledgement about her irrational feelings and lashing out, at the end make-outup scene. She was pretty mean and belittling to Oliver more than once, and it made me uncomfortable because, in my mind, Ray isn't worth it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . I am however, OK with the non apology, because it's normal to expect loved ones to forgive bad behaviour once you acknowledge it. Well I do it in RL...

 

I get that there was some worry about loosing herself in Oliver, but it was weird for me because I felt she lost herself so much on Palmer Island in S3, while S4 is giving me back the Felicity I understand, that it was a fairly big disconnect/"where did that come from?" moment for me. 

 

I will give Oliver a pass on Donna, because I feel like the Donna visit was organised before he knew about Ray (and he may have forgotten about it or he was trying to cover for Felicity being busy and dodging her mum's calls lately and suddenly Donna had him trapped) because I think Felicity kept Ray from him for quite a few days.

 

I feel bad for Donna because her visits are never received well, I would have liked to see a  happy Donna/Felicity/Oliver dinner scene at the end rather than, or as well as, the Smoak/Lance scene (even though I'm pretty neutral  leaning to positive about that ship). Or Donna could have been picking up the dinner again and bumped into Quentin and say that she is  giving her daughter space to make-up with Oliver...I don't know something to show that Donna was going to get some quality time with Felicity and Oliver. I think it would have closed off the episode better especially since there was NO SEX SCENE (I did appreciate the shirtless-ness and straddling).

 

Oliver was very Gracious this episode and I like it, it occurred many times, with Donna, when he saw Ray again, meeting Curtis trying to get Felicity to take care of herself and dealing with her, frankly, callousness.

 

I knew Laurel would get a pass form Sara, but I didn't have to like it...also CL is great in stunts. 

 

The Diggle/Oliver bromance was lovely to see (as well as the OG-TA) but I do think Diggle glossed over Oliver's fear that if Ray was lost, Felicity would resent Oliver forever and their relationship would fail. Poor thing really didn't know what to do to make things better.

 

Overall it will take me a re-watch or two to get comfortable with this episode, because it was more than I expected form Felicity and I wanted to enjoy it as much as I enjoyed 3.5, especially coming off of 2 very frustrating Laurel episodes.

[kismet]

You meant to say it "wasn't" her fault, right?

 

Re the chains, just because I liked the logic, he got out of them bc Digg, undercover, is the one who chained him up.  Sense was made!

OQ got out of them because he is a master of chainwork since s1! I Love OQ in and around chains... Sorry Not Sorry.

 

Plus apparently OQ now has puffy smoke disappearing magic too... yay maybe its part of his tattoo powers or something he learned in his AlSaHim days. I don't even care if its illogical & unrealistic. I like it.

[kismet]

I guess that's what they mean by Sara just running into danger. She runs into bullets and while Laurel and Thea stood around staring at the last guy Sara just jumps and kills him. It does suck that no one understands that Sara feeling better after killing people is horrible for her. She doesn't want to kill and now she has to, to feel normal. I was hoping for more Sara's POV, but I'll just wait for LoT. 

 

Dinah still sucks. Her daughter coming back from the dead doesn't even warrant a visit, she makes Sara go to her. I kind of want to Sara to meet up with Star Labs crew when she's in Central City. I want to know what she thinks of them. 

SL kicks ass because she is amazing. I really missed her in action sequences. CL is such an asset even if her plot is shittily written on ARROW. Fingers crossed they do a better job on LoT

 

I'm gonna give DL a pass because she did offer to have SL visit her which honestly is probably the better option. SC is a disaster. Getting away from it seemed to make a positive change in DL, so maybe she thinks it will do the same for SL. Plus I bet they didn't even tell her about the bloodlust. And from DL's perspective being around LL never seems to help SL out. Lastly, I totally see this as a way for SL & Hawkgirl to meet up in CC. So win win for the audience.

[Genki]

I finding interesting/odd/something to take note of, that while Felicity was (cutely) berating Oliver for hypothetically outing her to a Supervillian a few episode ago Ray actually put her in the cross-hairs of DD!

 

Ray's the worst...

[Angel12d]

I kind of love how little Felicity cared about being a target now that DD knows her name. She was just like 'Whatevs. Sounds like a Wednesday. Next!' Haha. 

[Chaser]

I'm super slow. I just realized the many implications of the episode title "Lost Souls."

[EmilyBettFan]

This might be Olicity hour to some but, it's needed. Laurel has gotten 2 episodes in a row. It's time for someone else's turn.

[lexicon]

Tator Tot Ray brings out the worst in Felicity, I swear.  I was not a fan of the passive-aggressiveness or bitchiness this episode.  Reminded me too much of season 3 Felicity, who I was generally not a fan of.  Thought the episode was boring and a let-down, actually.  

 

I really enjoyed the ep but I agree that the tater tot brings out the worst in her. Even after he was rescued and they were talking about cockroaches I thought her conversation with him sounded like it was trying too hard. YMMV.

 

Edited to change "to" to "too" *hangs head in shame*

Edited November 12, 2015 by lexicon

[Chaser]

Doing a re-watch. Props to SA. He is all soft voice trying to get Felicity in the shower and then when Ray pops up on the monitor he is all DEEP voice. 

[Chaser]

Everytime Donna shows up someone mouths MOM after realizing who she is. Ray, Oliver, Diggle, and now Curtis.

[Chaser]

I like CL's voice. It has a very nice quality, kind of deep and a bit raspy. It works with the world-weary Sara.

 

EBR has improved with her dramatic acting. The crying was better, but still not a strength for her. Honestly neither her or KC are good criers. EBR tends to look 12 and KC's eyebrows pull tight so it looks like botox is fighting her. The crying should be left to The Queens.

[bijoux]

 MamaSmoak is just a breath of fresh air, but that pink dress was still horrible. Shame on you costume dept, can't you find a sexy tight dress that actually fits?

I love the costume department for Donna's wardrobe. It's so bad it's good and it makes perfect sense for the character. And her platform flip flops with transparent straps. Oh my God. So awful. They were awesome.

[Sakura12]

I guess Sara kept her leap frog abilities from LP. :D

 

 

I like that both SA and CL change their voices when playing the different Oliver's and Sara's. CL uses a higher pitched voice when playing pre-gambit Sara, now she's using a deeper voice for the back from the dead traumatized Sara. SA does the same thing with Oliver. 

[lexicon]

I almost started sobbing when he was trying to hide the situation from Donna and wanted to know what he did wrong. And Emily's reaction to that was beautiful.

 

Stephen and Emily played the emotional beats of this episode perfectly. 

 

My heart ached for him when he uttered "Just trying to figure out what I did wrong" and then again when she admitted her doubts about losing herself in the relationship. Then his face when she returned home at the end and said "I think we should"...in that split second you could tell how much he feared what she was going to say and how much it would kill him if she ended things. All the awards to SA for his quiet, concerned, sometimes confused, heartache in this ep.

 

As for Felicity, I like that she expressed doubts and that what we saw of their relationship wasn't always all happy all the time, no relationship is like that and it takes getting over the bumps to be able to survive the long haul. What I didn't get what the reason for her neurosis, how was she to blame for Ray? How was it Oliver's fault that she was unable to save him before? What link am I missing? So seeing her run around like a chicken with her head cut off trying to save Ray while tossing angry quips at Oliver felt very wtf. Then when she finally exploded (which felt real and I appreciated) the reason again left me confused. I expected her to be upset about Oliver trying to manage her by making her stop and bathe and take a break or having her mom visit, to see that her ire was because of a fear of losing herself felt like it just came out of left field for me.

 

To be clear I do think these two have very real potential issues that need airing out, i.e. her abandonment issues and his repeated abandoning of her in s3. I would've welcomed that discussion. I also can fully appreciate that loving Oliver Queen with his various personas and past baggage can be fairly overwhelming, especially for Felicity for whom he is involved in every aspect of her life, I just wish that the groundwork for that conversation was laid better and amounted to more than Ray's needed help for the past few months and had I not left to travel the world with you, I'd have been there to help him. Or maybe how much I hate Ray just colours everything, who knows?

 

Despite my issues, all in all I loved the ep, because of all that they did well -

- Oliver and Felicity as a mature rational couple who discuss things. They fight, they give each other space and then they sort their shit out 

- Felicity and Oliver both independently showing so much character growth

- Oliver being allowed to show his skill again. Even though everyone and their reincarnated sister was out in the field, he had some pretty big moments and was able to best Damien Darkh, if only for this episode, thank you very much

- OTA scene, felt like old times

- the return of the Oliver/Diggle bromance. Before I fell in love with Oliver and Felicity I fell in love with Oliver/Diggle and them being there for each other and having a scene that honoured their relationship and how much they mean to each other was everything. Never break them up again show.

- Mama Smoak was a delight as always (I'll never be on board with SmoaknLance yuck)

- Felicity calling Oliver Chatty Cathy followed by him telling her they'll talk about it later in his deeper voice

- Oliver Queen laid out shirtless and barefoot on his bed with a book (journal?) like the best buffet ever at the end of the episode. 

- Felicity's quiet confidence that they'll be fine because they found themselves in each other. It was the best way to wrap up that episode, well that plus the straddling, straddling makes everything better.

 

It accomplished the most important task, I'm excited for next week and can't wait to see what happens next.

[Angel12d]

I forgot to say how much I enjoyed Sara in this episode, even though there wasn't much. I think CL has really come a long way as an actress (there were some instances in s2 where I found her a little wooden at times) and as usual she just shines in the action scenes. That part where she slid across the floor and shot everyone was awesome. I still maintain she should have been BC. She just thrives in that role.

 

I also thought the goodbye scene with Laurel was pretty touching.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Angel12d

[Chaser]

I wish we got some concern/doubt about putting Oliver in DD hands to rescue Ray. That's a huge risk and no life is worth a Ray.

Edited November 12, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[dtissagirl]

I'm super slow. I just realized the many implications of the episode title "Lost Souls."

 

All those lines of dialogue about "losing self in another", "finding self in another", I was terrified they were gonna say soulmates and I'd have to quit watching this show forever on principle.

[Primetimer]

People are saved from certain doom. And then there's kissing. Kind of a lot of it.

Read the story

[bijoux]

I wish we got some concern/doubt about putting Oliver in DD hands to rescue Ray. That's a huge risk and no life is worth a Ray.

Yeah, where are the marks from the chains choking him? I could have used Felicity fussing about him in the end.

[apinknightmare]

Stephen and Emily played the emotional beats of this episode perfectly.

What I didn't get what the reason for her neurosis, how was she to blame for Ray? How was it Oliver's fault that she was unable to save him before? What link am I missing? So seeing her run around like a chicken with her head cut off trying to save Ray while tossing angry quips at Oliver felt very wtf.

Ray had been sending her distress messages ever since the explosion, but Felicity wasn't around to get those messages, because she was off traveling with Oliver. She was feeling guilty that he was living that tater tot life for months and months when he wouldn't have been if she hadn't left her job to travel with her boyfriend who does indeed have the perfect jaw Curtis, wtf. Felicity was angry at herself for dropping her life for Oliver, which had the side effect of leaving Ray stranded like a fallen chip between the couch cushions of Star City. Edited November 12, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Password]

This episode wasn't really about Felicity being neurotic about Ray at all IMO. If anything, Ray was just a catalyst to get the ball rolling on her unspoken insecurities. Guilt is a strange thing.

I felt sorry for Ray. Again he's nothing but a prop.

(I'm totally lying, didn't feel sorry at all but seriously he was just a prop to bring up issues.)

[bijoux]

This episode wasn't really about Felicity being neurotic about Ray at all IMO. If anything, Ray was just a catalyst to get the ball rolling on her unspoken insecurities. Guilt is a strange thing.

I felt sorry for Ray. Again he's nothing but a prop.

(I'm totally lying, didn't feel sorry at all but seriously he was just a prop to bring up issues.)

I'm completely with you. I actually laughed because Ray wasn't the main player in his own storyline, but an instrument of Felicity's and by extension Oliver's. Which is pretty much how it played with Sara being brought back, but due to my feelings about the characters involved in each story, my reactions are diametrically opposite. Sara is sidelined for Laurel in her own resurrection? Boo. A pox on your house. Ray is sidelined for Oliver and Felicity? Ahahaha.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Retyping this as the forum ate my post!  Ugh.  The November Witch took out my satellite for like 20 minutes of the last half hour (went out in the middle of the dinner scene), so I feel like I missed some pretty important stuff...oh well.  While I'm not happy with how Felicity was written (or maybe how EBR played her??) this episode, she's still my fave, and I'm sure things will be better next week.  In the future, I would prefer if she directs that intense anger and vitriol at someone deserving, like Malcolm.  I am thankful that Oliver reacted so well to being the punching bag (don't need to see season 3 asshole Oliver again), but I'm ready to go back to rainbows and unicorns and puppies.  After season 3, my tolerance for misery, or negativity, or inharmonious O/F is not very high.    

[tarotx]

I personally loved this episode. Felicity angry at herself and questioning why she left is understandable. She did return to helping the team early. If she would have felt her and Oliver was perfect she could have told him she needed more and maybe found Ray earlier. She did what was best for Oliver. And staying away did help him Zen up. So Felicity is in tune with what is best for Oliver but she's unsure about doing the best for herself. I 100% understand that fear.

And I actually think it's best to use Sara and Ray to be "devices" that move Arrow main character arcs. Sara's bloodlust set her up but it also propelled Thea's worst fears for herself. Ray's return moved Felicity's and Oliver's arcs.

And I don't even care as much as I feared Sara thanking Laurel. She knows Laurel's heart was in the right place. Laurel's head wasn't but that isn't Sara's place to teach Laurel. I mean this soon after coming back. Buffy thanked the Scooby gang and she was far far from actually thankful but it's what they needed to hear. Laurel needs to see her actions do something bad. She always leaves right before or comes in right after the emotional part of the bad happens. Maybe her decision can get Lance (or herself) killed. And she has to actually see(feel) the life leave. Maybe Lance tells her to not do something stupid like bring him back. And She and Sara can deal with the emotional hell part of it later in the season.

Sara's stuff will be delt with on LOT. But even people like the Huntress returned later to deal with their issues so it's nothing new to want more. Sara's journey is going to be similar to Thea but they are different Characters with different life experiences. Caity and Thea do good bringing their characters to life. They are really growing as actresses. Caity(and her ability to transition well) bring stunt scenes to life as good as always. I do wish we got to see the Thea&Sara scene and not just hear about it. Maybe we can later. A reason to bring Thea to LOT for an episode.

They made a small note of Sara not remembering a childhood memory. I wonder if she's going to have memory issues?

Edited November 12, 2015 by tarotx

[Sakura12]

The lost memory issue was glossed over, but then again it was by Laurel who doesn't care unless it involves her. Hopefully Sara missing some of her memories will play a part in LoT. It's just too bad she couldn't forget about Laurel. 

[foreverevolving]

I forgot to say how much I enjoyed Sara in this episode, even though there wasn't much. I think CL has really come a long way as an actress (there were some instances in s2 where I found her a little wooden at times) and as usual she just shines in the action scenes. That part where she slid across the floor and shot everyone was awesome. I still maintain she should have been BC. She just thrives in that role.

 

I also thought the goodbye scene with Laurel was pretty touching.

I have to ask, when Sara said "forever and always" did anyone else get a emotional detachment vibe from Sara? as if she was just going by the motions of what someone who is leaving town is expected to say to say to a loved one, it just felt like such a huge contrast from her season 2 goodbye scene.

I think she is missing more than she is letting on, and I think her emotions is one of those things. She just seemed very, polite, to Laurel in the way that you would to a distant cousin. it's like on a logical level her brain knows that's her sister, but her heart, her emotions, hasn't caught up yet (which may just be for the best for Sara).

Edited November 12, 2015 by foreverevolving

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, I found that memory thing intriguing too. And I think it was a real missed opportunity not to have Sara go after Thea at least once this ep. Maybe Thea could have tried to pull her off one of the dudes she was beating, and Sara could have turned on her. Bringing that up and then dropping it is such a waste. Kind of wish they'd finished with Sara, and then moved onto Ray, so there could have been enough time for her story. But that's par for the course with the haphazard way they're handling this LoT stuff.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[tarotx]

I did. It reminded me of Buffy going through the motions.

I have to ask, when Sara said "forever and always" did anyone else get a emotional detachment vibe from Sara? as if she was just going by the motions of what someone who is leaving town is expected to say, it just felt like such a huge contrast from her season 2 goodbye scene.

[bethy]

I don't know that I have much to add to what's already been said. I enjoyed the episode overall, but I have to admit that every time the whole "team" does something together, my response is, "that's too many people to make sense." I don't think it's only that I miss OTA, but, honestly, five or six or seven feels like people are cluttering up the scenes. Four, I think, if really doable, but more than that gets really distracting to me.

 

I pretty much fast-forwarded through any Laurel scenes I could. I paused long enough to hear Laurel say, "She'll be fine" to Thea's concern over Sara being back in the field. And realizing that Laurel was still in some weird denial about Sara's mental state, I felt okay with my decision to avoid her scenes.

Edited November 12, 2015 by bethy

[Sakura12]

I have to ask, when Sara said "forever and always" did anyone else get a emotional detachment vibe from Sara? as if she was just going by the motions of what someone who is leaving town is expected to say, it just felt like such a huge contrast from her season 2 goodbye scene.

 

They did say Sara's going to be dealing finding her humanity on LoT. Maybe she doesn't really feel human anymore. She wasn't actually dead those other times, this time she was. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by Sakura12

[Angel12d]

I don't know that I have much to add to what's already been said. I enjoyed the episode overall, but I have to admit that every time the whole "team" does something together, my response is, "that's too many people to make sense." I don't think it's only that I miss OTA, but, honestly, five or six or seven feels like people are cluttering up the scenes. Four, I think, if really doable, but more than that gets really distracting to me.

 

Yeah, everyone going out into the field at once is getting seriously old. There's too many of them. I miss when it was just Oliver out in the field with Diggle helping him. 

[AyChihuahua]

Hey, remember that Oliver has yelled at Felicity - but of course, a guy can't be 'bitchy' - and emotionally jerked her around in the past, and he even used her as bait to draw out Slade Wilson without telling her first.

Just to be clear, that might be the case for some viewers, but for me, it's unacceptable for either of them.  More so for Oliver, actually, because he's behaved terribly a LOT, to Felicity and everyone else.  Not everyone who dislikes her behavior thought his behavior in the past was okay.  I think I've been pretty clear that I wanted to punch him in the face for a lot of S3, in particular, and I've always thought not cluing her in to the Slade plan was both shitty and inexcusable. 

[kismet]

I liked the snippy Felicity and Olicity fight. It was realistic and they handled it like adults.  Felicity was stressed and focused because she thought she was responsible for this and needed to fix it herself (remind you of anyone?) and the last thing she wanted was for her mother to show up in town.  I wouldn't have wanted that either and I have a much better relationship with my mother than Felicity does.  It's not surprising that Oliver has a good relationship with Donna, he doesn't have all the baggage with her that Felicity has. But it was really stupid to let Donna come to town when Felicity was already stressed.

It did feel a little like a mini-OQ moment with her its all my fault. Its why I always said the OQ & FS are very much alike. They both have a deep sense of responsibility to others that amps up esp when it comes to loved ones. I love when people take responsibility for their actions, even if their portion of blame is really minuscule in the whole scenario. I don't understand why MamaSmoak was invited, it did seem like weird timing. Then again MamaSmoak did know RP and was there for the kidnapping where Ray saved the day as well as RP in the hospital. So maybe OQ thought she might have some insight since this was a RP thing. In show, I don't think nobody knew that Ray was alive until this episode - and by then I think it was too late to disinvite her. I also believe that OQ was only trying to help. I do like how he gave her space when he realized that it was what she needed. And I love that the writers let them talk about it and handle the fight as adults. It felt actually organic and real.

 

The "you need to take a shower and a nap" reminded me of Felicity saying that to Ray last season and I really don't want to be reminded of that.

They have been using Raylicity lines for Olicity lines all season. I don’t even think it is intentional, I think they are just repetitive with some of the dialogue. It’s like they think the lines are great and forget that we have already heard it before. I do like that they had Dig reference a shower, nap & meal. It made it less about a couple and more about people caring about their friends.

 

Too true.  At least she wasn't happy then.

I definitely agree that she needs to watch s3 to see losing herself in a relationship. But I disagree, I think she was happy with RP. I don't think she realized that she was a different person around RP. I think perhaps she didn’t realize it in s3 because she was invested in RP, but clearly not as much as she has ever been in invested in OQ. Her concerns about OQ are valid because she wants it to work more than any other relationship. I think being with OQ also challenges her in ways she never expected and makes her better. Just like she said in the end, they found themselves in each other. It’s not just losing herself, its finding a better version of herself but that is not without some growing pains.

 

Dear Diary:

I love Felicity so much but I am scared she doesn't want to be with me any more.  I will love Felicity 4evah.

Dear Diary – Oliver Queen Edition is something I need to see. Now I really want them to have an occasional voice-over of OQ’s inner monologue. It was horrible in s1, but I would love to hear what OQ recaps on his journal.

 

LOL at code names Chatty Cathy and Spartan.  Diggle can keep Spartan, I like it.

 

I liked the Felicity/Donna scene in the bedroom. Oliver had Diggle but Felicity needs someone wise to help her too.

I'm sad that Sara has gone so soon but I understand why.  She's literally the perfect Black Canary and when Laurel is fighting beside her, it just makes it all the more obvious.

I wish we had at least one scene of Thea and Sara talking though.

Ditto on – Oliver/Diggle, Donna/Felicity, Spartan, Sara/Thea & SL being a perfect BC.

Edited November 12, 2015 by kismet

[Primal Slayer]

I'm officially tired of these Ghosts. They remind me of puttys from Power Rangers. Give me some villains with personality and actual threats.

[Password]

I thought Felicity was a little bitchy in one particular scene. Just before Oliver says he doesn't know what he did wrong she says something like "Oliver to the rescue". That was really odd.

But other than that, some of her barbs were mean and some were hilarious.

[blixie]

 

I was not fine with her putting down Oliver's intelligence several times when he offered to help.

 

Okay, I agree, but when I think it about it all I can do is laugh because Oliver being Dumb is kind of his THING, in life lessons way generally (and specifically about tech) so she's not wrong, and I do think that is why she THANKED him at the end, she wanted that to double as an apology by acknowledging how he tried, in ways he never would have before loving her. But that doesn't count as an apology, I don't know why they elided an "I wanted to apologize.... AND thank you." Oh wait, I do  know why, because they suck at this writing a relationship well stuff. I've mostly liked S4 Olicity but this felt like some kind of karmic scale balancing, heh we had Oliver be an asshole for large parts of last year, and Felicity loved him anyway, now Felicity will be an asshole and Oliver will  love her anyway.

 

I thought the episode was mediocre, not just because of what I felt was a contrived angle to Felicity's relationship issues ( lost in Oliver? okay). I agree with the horrible pacing that made the resolutions rushed an unearned, but bad pacing is par for the course since the Guggenheim era. I still love Curtis, and I love SmoaknLance, when exactly did this whole board turn against that ship?! Regardless I refuse to get my hopes up Laurel is in the grave, and I think Lance getting involved with Donna is an even further confirmation of his death.

 

I'm bummed how little Sara we got, and that Laurel told her to suit up? I hated that, I hated it so much. I assume her bloodlust is more intense/uncontrollable because she was entirely really truly dead, not just mostly dead like Thea.

[Sakura12]

DD and his Ghosts do need to step it up. They made Zoom pretty terrifying on the Flash because he actually did severely injure the hero. DD just seems to do a lot of villain gloating. 

[blixie]

 

DD just seems to do a lot of villain gloating.

 

Yup, I think the only time that works is if the Villain wants to win over the Hero, or corrupt them whatever. Which was basically the Ra's story last year only that was ruined by horrendous casting, this year they nailed the casting and went back to deeply stupid story.

[kismet]

A lot of people on Twitter think that Oliver thought Felicity was going to break up with him.  Thoughts?  If yes, that makes me really, really sad...he's ready to propose to her, and he thinks she's going to break up with him.

I wasn't on Twitter. But even I thought she might break up with him. I mean clearly I knew she wasn't because ying/yang kiss and the fact that she is in love with him. But the whole pause was deliberate TV we might break up writing. Seriously though FS breaking up with Shirtless OQ, so not gonna happen. And we all know he was intentionally being shirtless for reasons ;) The man knows how to work his assets. Worst case scenario he probably would have just brought a tire into loft.

 

I'm glad they finally gave us some of FS's perspective on the relationship. The girl has been waxing and waning in the relationship since they return to SC, so I understand his concerns.

[AyChihuahua]

I still love Curtis, and I love SmoaknLance, when exactly did this whole board turn against that ship?!

For me it was when he led a manhunt for Oliver.  I think she's great, and he's scum, so I don't want him and his scumminess anywhere near her.

 

I'm pretty sure I'm not supposed to remember what a total hypocritical prick Quentin was in S3b, though.

[Delphi]

Emily's hair game was on point last night, it's the first time I've noticed the haircut and is super flattering.

In regards to Felicity being mean, I'm not as uncomfortable with it as everyone else. She was tired, worried, feeling guilty and stressed out. Sure it's not acceptable behavior but that was the point. They didn't frame it like she was behaving rationally. And I personally have had bigger fights with my boyfriend about things far less serious. I wanted to see domestic olicity squabbles and I got it. It was very human. I can't get behind calling Felicity a bitch because of it.

[AyChihuahua]

I found her behavior to be bitchy, but I don't think she actually is a bitch.  She's usually quite wonderful.

[arjumand]

For me it was when he led a manhunt for Oliver.  I think she's great, and he's scum, so I don't want him and his scumminess anywhere near her.

 

I'm pretty sure I'm not supposed to remember what a total hypocritical prick Quentin was in S3b, though.

 

But don't you remember? He helped Thea and Oliver so much after Moira died!

 

Oh wait. That's something that never ever happened. I teach high school English, and one of the set texts is Animal Farm. I feel like the show runners are trying to pull that rewriting history trick on me. Or, hell, 1984 works too: "Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia."

 

I guess I'm just one of the proles - just give me my weekly ration of Oliver and Felicity 2gether 4ever and I'm fine.

 

I liked the episode, though I wish she hadn't been so sharp and dismissive, but I guess no one's perfect.

 

Now that Ray's full-sized again he can piss off.

 

Did we really learn Poppy's real name? I didn't catch it.

[apinknightmare]

Poppy's name is Taiana.

[dtissagirl]

Poppy's name is Taiana.

 

She'll always be Poppy to me.

[looptab]

About Thea, Sara and the bloodlust. Sara leaves because she can't handle it as Thea is doing, does that mean that Thea has accepted and is ok with killing someone every now and then??