S14.E14: Finale, Part 2

[phoenix780]

Well, just like everyone else you're entitled to your opinion and your preferences.  It's all opinion in the end.  You may think that Candice's pieces were attractive in terms of cut but they were costume like.  And the reality is that fit on thin is much easier that fit on plus.  It just is.  FIT Draping 101.  Yes, Ashley did choose to work with plus size models but is it unfair to take into consideration that fitting a plus size is much more difficult than a tall skinny model?  So does fit outweigh originality?  Ashley's was much more original than Candice IMO.

 

Yeah, it is arguable to say that no one looks good in lace and pastels.  I've seen women look very good in lace and if you look at Swapnil's collection, he used bright pastels.  How many people would look good in Candice's or Kelly's collections?

 

And heck, I'm not saying you're not entitled to your opinions, I'm just saying that given what was presented to the judges, Ashley won it.  Was it the 'best' collection ever on PR?  No.  But given her competitors, she deserved the win....not because the 'fat' designer used plus size models and it was the PC thing to do.  JMO.

If you define yourself as a designer for plus-sized women and you say it's your dream, wouldn't you be an expert at fitting plus-sized models the same way other designers are in fitting tall skinny ones?  I mean...wouldn't her skill make it more of an even playing field once she was able to use models with the types of bodies she's trained to dress, not less?

 

The whole finale was a bit lackluster for me, and I'm not all that offended by her victory.  This is her thing, so I'm not getting what was inherently more difficult about her task, what needs to be taken into consideration. 

 

Also, I think this finale wouldn't have been so boring to me if it weren't stretched out in order to add advertisements for a show I was planning to watch until those advertisements.  I wonder what the thought process was there.  I'm already watching PR, I'm accustomed to taping this network at the appointed time...I'm probably already down for a spinoff.  Thank goodness for fast forward, because that was like 40 minutes of interesting content wrapped. 

[millennium]

Project Runway Winner Ashley Tipton: 'We're Putting Plus-Size on the Map'

http://www.people.com/article/project-runway-winner-ashley-tipton-putting-plus-size-on-map

 

Um.  Sure you are.

 

No One Hated This Season of Project Runway More Than Tim Gunn

 

Project Runway’s resident dad Tim Gunn is super disappointed with the show’s latest cast of designers. In fact, he says he “hated” this season. The winning designer thinks maybe some of that is Tim’s fault.

 

Anyone who watched Season 14 would agree on some level with Tim, whose main gripe is with the designers’ lack of motivation, not their talent. This season featured some of the best contestants in terms of skills, but many of them tried to coast into the finale with safe designs.

 

“I have a theory about it, which is that they just weren’t hungry,” Tim told Entertainment Weekly. He referred to audition videos of one of them “sitting by a pool.”

 

“I just thought, they’re not hungry! Most of them. And I think that was largely the issue,” he says. “I wasn’t at the auditions [this] season for the first time ever, and I blame myself, because I wouldn’t have put up with a lot of it.”

 

Tim is, fairly, blaming everyone, including the judges, who he says gave conflicting feedback (Don’t they always?). “One says it’s black, the other says it’s white, and they don’t really listen and they don’t really look,” says Tim. “It makes me so cross and pissed off, frankly.”

 

All that said, the season was entertaining. Ashley, who was just OKAY to death throughout and hid behind her insecurities, ended up becoming the show’s first plus-size designer to win, with a Fashion Week collection inspired by Mexico in the 1950s.

 

In response to Tim’s tough critique, Ashley told E! News:

 

    “It kind of hurts to hear that he doesn’t think that we brought it. Because at the end of the day we’re listening to him and we’re listening to the judges, so somewhere along there someone’s not doing their job...This is our lives right here and we’re putting everything on the line, so it hurts a little bit to hear that because we put everything into it and it almost makes us feel like we didn’t deserve to go to fashion week or we don’t deserve the outcome that has happened.”

 

http://jezebel.com/no-one-hated-this-season-of-project-runway-more-than-ti-1741490112

 

 

"... and it almost makes us feel like we didn’t deserve to go to fashion week or we don’t deserve the outcome that has happened.”

 

Ding ding ding!

[Beden]

 

If you define yourself as a designer for plus-sized women and you say it's your dream, wouldn't you be an expert at fitting plus-sized models the same way other designers are in fitting tall skinny ones?  I mean...wouldn't her skill make it more of an even playing field once she was able to use models with the types of bodies she's trained to dress, not less?

Well, yes and thank you.

 

Obviously just about everything regarding fashion design (or any design, for that matter) is largely opinion and subjective but beyond that, PR is a design competition where the designers are required to do their own construction. On that basis alone I would have tossed Ashley based on falling hems, glued on embellishments and astonishingly poor fit on her models. I might have given her a pass for a standard 1 day challenge but for the runway finale? No way in hell. I don't care (okay, yes I do...) if she had to tape the fucking hem up before the model walked just so it wasn't apparent that it was falling down. Gluing the flowers on? Seriously??? Garments which clearly didn't fit?

 

The designers had--what?--something like 2 months to complete their final show? No excuse. Like Ashley efforts or not and the other designers output or not, the others were finished and could be fairly judged as completed looks. Ashley's clothes had asterisks after them.

 

I'm also annoyed at her whining about haters hating, or whatever she was moaning about. That's the excuse of a junior high student dealing with the mean meanies in gym class, not a woman presenting herself as an adult and a professional.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Beden

[pasdetrois]

 

“I just thought, they’re not hungry! Most of them. And I think that was largely the issue,” he says. “

Or maybe serious designers recognize the embarrassing tripe this show has become and stay away in droves. One-day challenges? No sleep? Idiotic judges? Who needs that? Not to mention the fixed results.

Edited November 10, 2015 by pasdetrois

[Day2Day]

Sprinkles are for winners.  But yeah, love it.

 

This pooch is a sure "winner".... sprinkles desrved !!   I hope Ashley has a box of tissues with her when she has her first rejection with some buyer(s) for her "Plus-size" samples. She won't have a panel of nutty judges with her to blow smoke up her behind. Still can't understand how the judging could be sooooo bad for such poorly designed and fitted clothing.

[Kromm]

Is that Tim stuff verified? Him actually SAYING it I mean?

 

I will say he's putting his entire reputation daring to criticize the plus-sized designer. Calling out the other producers, and even the judges is survivable. The public hates them too. But DARING to cast shade on the magic societal symbol?  If he hasn't already started to be shouted down and reviled on Twitter I'll eat my hat.

[Julia]

From what she said, it seemed as if she assumed he was talking about her. If I had to guess, I'd say she listened to whatever less-than-helpful advisor told her to stay offline and didn't read Tim's comments, so she responded to the way the reporter characterized his comments (and I'm not a Tim fan by any stretch at this point).

[gunderda]

I liked Ashley but I thought Kelly should have won.   These collections aren't so much of how many people are going to wear them... because hardly any of any design of any collection would be worn by the average person. 

 

Edmond and Candice were soooooo boring.  I was bummed Candice took away all of her fun stuff. 

[Julia]

Well, I was going by this:

This is our lives right here and we're putting everything on the line, so it hurts a little bit to hear that because we put everything into it and it almost makes us feel like we didn't deserve to go to fashion week or we don't deserve the outcome that has happened.

So that sounds to me as if she's taking it a bit personally, particularly since as a partisan for Swapnil I doubt she'd be arguing that he deserved 'the outcome that happened.'

Edited November 10, 2015 by Julia

[Miss Ruth]

Then again, maybe she's just being her usual, crybaby, poor me self.

[millennium]

Is that Tim stuff verified? Him actually SAYING it I mean?

 

I will say he's putting his entire reputation daring to criticize the plus-sized designer. Calling out the other producers, and even the judges is survivable. The public hates them too. But DARING to cast shade on the magic societal symbol?  If he hasn't already started to be shouted down and reviled on Twitter I'll eat my hat.

 

Taking a closer look, the Jezebel piece was apparently rehashed from an Entertainment Tonight piece, which itself was rehashed from an actual interview on HuffPost Live:

 

http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/archive/segment/563bc48599ec6dc7a100036b

 

I don't hold a grudge against Gunn for lambasting Swapnil.   I'm sure there was something behind it.   I doubt it just came out of the blue.   From time to time on these reality shows the mask slips and we get a glimpse of what the host truly feels -- for example, Jeff Probst's blatant disgust when someone quits Survivor.   Or Phil Keoghan of Amazing Race making a comment, expression or gesture that leaves little doubt about his feelings regarding the actions of certain racers.    They see someone squandering what they feel is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, while at the same time having a deleterious effect on their show.   

[breezy424]

 

Taking a closer look, the Jezebel piece was apparently rehashed from an Entertainment Tonight piece, which itself was rehashed from an actual interview on HuffPost Live:

 

http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/archive/segment/563bc48599ec6dc7a100036b

 

I don't hold a grudge against Gunn for lambasting Swapnil.   I'm sure there was something behind it.   I doubt it just came out of the blue.   From time to time on these reality shows the mask slips and we get a glimpse of what the host truly feels -- for example, Jeff Probst's blatant disgust when someone quits Survivor.   Or Phil Keoghan of Amazing Race making a comment, expression or gesture that leaves little doubt about his feelings regarding the actions of certain racers.    They see someone squandering what they feel is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, while at the same time having a deleterious effect on their show.   

There was nothing in that interview with Huffpost about the PR contestants.  It was mostly about the Kardashians.  Unless I missed it.

 

I think the source is EW.  That article specifically states that Tim Gunn 'said' to them.  I also think it's important that Tim didn't say 'all the contestants'.  He said:  “I hated it. I felt that other than a couple of designers, they weren’t working up to their potential. The whole thing was lackluster.”

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/11/03/project-runway-tim-gunn-hated-season-14

 

I agree with him on that.  He also said 'most' of them weren't hungry enough. 

 

Did Ashley take Tim's comments personally?   Sure. That's just a normal human reaction.  Tim doesn't say what designers were working up to their potential.  And I wouldn't have a problem with Candice or Kelly or Edmund or the rest of contestants taking it personally.  

[Vicky8675309]

I hope Tim is including Ashley in his criticism. Didn't Ashley have smug TH about how she couldn't believe people would come to the finale unprepared with unfinished work while hers was all finished. Then right before the final runway she is GLUING flowers onto a dress. Are the majority of the show's fans (non-message board viewers) supportive of her win of the show?

[potatoradio]

 

Didn't Ashley have smug TH about how she couldn't believe people would come to the finale unprepared with unfinished work while hers was all finished.

 

On the first part of the finale, when everyone was unpacking their garments, Edmond said he had three pieces to make. Kelly then had a TH where she said she couldn't believe anyone would come to fashion week with work left to do and she was very glad not to be in that position. 

[millennium]

There was nothing in that interview with Huffpost about the PR contestants.  It was mostly about the Kardashians.  Unless I missed it.

 

I think the source is EW.  That article specifically states that Tim Gunn 'said' to them.  I also think it's important that Tim didn't say 'all the contestants'.  He said:  “I hated it. I felt that other than a couple of designers, they weren’t working up to their potential. The whole thing was lackluster.”

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/11/03/project-runway-tim-gunn-hated-season-14

 

I agree with him on that.  He also said 'most' of them weren't hungry enough. 

 

Did Ashley take Tim's comments personally?   Sure. That's just a normal human reaction.  Tim doesn't say what designers were working up to their potential.  And I wouldn't have a problem with Candice or Kelly or Edmund or the rest of contestants taking it personally.  

 

I didn't watch the video (embedded videos lag the hell out of my computer), just followed the link from Entertainment Tonight article:

 

http://www.etonline.com/news/175511_tim_gunn_slams_kanye_west_basic_style_calls_out_kardashians_vulgar_style/

[slothgirl]

 And the reality is that fit on thin is much easier that fit on plus.  It just is.  FIT Draping 101.  Yes, Ashley did choose to work with plus size models but is it unfair to take into consideration that fitting a plus size is much more difficult than a tall skinny model

But why had she not even started dressing her models 30 minutes before they were supposed to walk? What was she doing?

And seriously.. what DID happen with that busted zipper? Did she sew the girl into it?

 

On that basis alone I would have tossed Ashley based on falling hems, glued on embellishments and astonishingly poor fit on her models. I might have given her a pass for a standard 1 day challenge but for the runway finale? No way in hell. I don't care (okay, yes I do...) if she had to tape the fucking hem up before the model walked just so it wasn't apparent that it was falling down. Gluing the flowers on? Seriously??? Garments which clearly didn't fit?

Exactly. If fitting was going to be an issue, then she should have had everything else impeccable to make up for any fit issues. But everything else was NOT impeccable. Far from it.

 

Well, I lie.. the headpieces were impeccable... I truly think she got so caught up in those headpieces that she didn't leave herself enough time for actual proper garment construction. I really was hoping that when she told the judges that the flowers were glue on rather than sewn, that would have been the end of it for her.

[Nutjob]

I mean...wouldn't her skill make it more of an even playing field once she was able to use models with the types of bodies she's trained to dress, not less?

For me, this is the real problem with Ashley's abilities. We saw her design for plus sized models twice--once during the crew makeover challenge, and then in the finale. Both times, her designs had real fit and proportion issues, even as she was proclaiming herself excited about designing for larger models because that is her area of expertise. I am neither model sized nor plus sized (I'm a former plus, now in the Tyra Banks Fiercely Real size 8 middle category), but I didn't find Ashley's design and color palette combination flattering for anyone of any size or age group. Her entire collection sat in a weird space of "other" that, for the life of me, I couldn't figure out to whom it would sell. I can see Edmond's girl. I know Candice's girl (and I'm a metal chick, so I am her on many occasions). Kelly's girl is at every hip club across the globe. I just don't know who Ashley's client is with the fit, proportion, color, and cut story her final collection was trying to tell. It was a mish mash that didn't work for me at all, and that's why I question her win.

[millennium]

I really was hoping that when she told the judges that the flowers were glue on rather than sewn, that would have been the end of it for her.

 

Ashley Nell Tipton puts the "paste" in pastel. 

Edited November 10, 2015 by millennium

[Miss Ruth]

...and the "ewwww" in glue.  :)

[breezy424]

Just wondering....there has been a lot of criticism regarding the fit of Ashley's clothes on the models.  Could some of these posters elaborate?  Yeah, there was a problem with the romper.  But what else?  I'm wondering this because there are always going to be certain things that are going to happen when a woman carries more weight in areas....like when they're walking.  Or a crop top can't fit as tightly because the area below the breasts is not flat and that has to be accounted for or the waist of a skirt can't always just sit on top of the hips because the waist/hip difference.  Again, I'm just wondering.
 

[Kareem]

In retrospect, given the clearly preordained Ashley win, the ousting of Swapnil makes all the sense in the world. They couldn't keep him around, because there was no chance that Ashley's finale collection would even be in the same ballpark as his. (And it wasn't.) He must've made it terribly difficult for the writers, because he didn't give them much to work with. He was a nice guy, a talented guy, no drama, no BS, most people liked him. There was no real reason to get rid of him, but they had to come up with something, so they went with something unprovable to the viewing public: he just wasn't applying himself. He helped the plot move along with that last stinker of a garment. It wouldn't surprise me if the true story was that he caught wind of the pre-determined outcome of this season, realized it was complete BS, and mentally checked out.

hehehe. Every word of this except "stinker of a garment" could also be "stinker of a model". What a wonderful conspiracy theory. Love it.

This is a late but not forgotten post to say how much I've enjoyed everyone's posts! You made this season much nicer. All the best to you. There are some sisters by another Mr. here; it was a joy to hear your thoughts and hope to see you again one day... Cheers!

[justawatcher]

 I am a plus size women. I hover the line between 18W, 16W, 16, and 14 depending on the day and the bloat, and the cut of the garment.

A few random thoughts concerning Ashley's win-

-for the poster above who wondered about fit issues and how you fit a crop top on a plus size model because there is a fat roll so it doesn't lay flat- the answer is, you don't. As in, you don't send down a crop top on a plus size runway. Nor do you send down granny panties under a see through lace skirt or Mexican fiesta flowers. I ask you- traditional size high fashion designers have been pushing the sheer and the granny panties for years. They occasionally get a ladystar to wear one for a promo. But, have you ever seen a normal woman of any size go spend money on and then wear granny panties in public? No, you have not. And if major established fashion designers can't get that going, then Ashley isn't going to get it going with the fat girls. Most fat girls aren't really all that keen on exposing our bodies to that degree. Most Americans of ANY size aren't that keen on exposing their body to that degree. Normal 40 year old women don't wear crop tops or see through skirts or vintage. Why would she think plus size would? I never saw Ashley wear any of those things on her stay at the show. If she wouldn't wear it, why assume anyone else would?

 

- making a collection in seven weeks- we talked about this earlier in the season, that any contestant should have come prepared with the end game already in their head. They should have shown up having designed and practiced with muslin how to do a coat, a pant, an evening gown, etc in one day. They should have had an arsenal in their head of 15 looks that they knew how to do in that time frame and what fabrics would have photographed well on TV. They should have already walked the aisles of Mood or looked at it online to see what they stock, where it is, and how much it costs. They may have even thought of how to present those 12-15 weekly challenges as a cohesive look that showed their POV. Edmund did. I guarantee you that. So one would also assume that they would have had the beginnings of their collection already in their mind as well, with some tweaks to how the judges were skewing, how Lifetime was skewing, etc. Candace could never grasp that Lifetime wasn't interested in black clothes.

 

- what every plus size woman wants is to look fabulous. We are well aware of our figure flaws. The majority of us are taking steps (of varying degree) to lose weight or stay healthy underneath. There are only a miniscule amount of fat girls that want to show off and celebrate their body as it is and they already dress to do that. Those are not Ashley's, nor anyone else's, plus size clients. Take a look around at the well dressed fat women you know or see and you will find some common denominators: very few trendy clothes. Very few cheap fabrics. Very few prints (and it's not that we don't like prints but they are usually coupled with a cheap fabric and a cheap cut of that fabric). What you will see on the well dressed fat girl are solids in flattering colors as fat girls know what colors look good on them and they stick with them. You will see sleeves, usually to the elbow. You will see a wide variety of neckline. What you will also see are absolutely fabulous accessories- a great haircut, good shoes, pretty scarves (with print), statement necklaces and jewelry and fabulous coats.

[Beden]

 

Just wondering....there has been a lot of criticism regarding the fit of Ashley's clothes on the models.  Could some of these posters elaborate?  Yeah, there was a problem with the romper.  But what else?  I'm wondering this because there are always going to be certain things that are going to happen when a woman carries more weight in areas....like when they're walking.  Or a crop top can't fit as tightly because the area below the breasts is not flat and that has to be accounted for or the waist of a skirt can't always just sit on top of the hips because the waist/hip difference.

Good point and I'll take a stab at it (all JMO, of course).

The crop tops, yes, poor fit. It wasn't just that they were much too loose at the bottom hem of the crop tops, the bra cup also looked to me like it was swimming on the model's boobs...just generally too big overall. Perhaps if Ashley had chosen a different fabric, perhaps something with stretch instead of what looked to me like a woven fabric, she could have found a way to make it work. Maybe the undergarment (bra) could have been changed to help. The skirts waistbands looked too tight, creating the dreaded muffin top in an effort to, I presume, create an hourglass shape. The dark shorts were clearly too tight for the model's thighs, causing them to ride up into the poor things crotch as she walked since her thighs rubbed together--a common situation for plus sizes (and I speak from experience).

 

There were more but I'm working from my not very good memory. Aside from the fit issues, I question her design choices in making those particular shapes for her women. I realize that she was likely trying to make the statement that anyone can wear various garments, but it looked to me like she had a vision and it over rode the reality of her mirror. Yes, technically anyone can wear just about anything--it may just not be the best choice. Anyone who's ever looked at bathing suits knows that not everything works on everyone, size 0 or size 26.

 

Aside from fit, my real issue with Ashley was that she glued her stuff and other things were clearly either unfinished or poorly done--ie, the falling hem. I find no excuse for that. She knew her assignment, she knew how long she had to complete it. On that level she failed.

[Oldernowiser]

I never saw Ashley wear any of those things on her stay at the show. If she wouldn't wear it, why assume anyone else would?

Fantastic post...and you've hit on something that kept bugging me. Ashley looked all kinds of mess most if the time. Try as I might, I can't get the afterburn image of that hideous dayglo yellow skirt out of my head. It's one thing to say I'm big, deal with it, but why so ugly?

I would love to see what a real designer, like Laura from Season 2 or Jillian or even Christian could do in dressing a plus sized woman elegantly. Those designers knew how to tailor clothes, they knew fabric, and they could SEW.

We all have figure idiosyncrasies that we deal with. I'm a size 4 but have a short waist, a round butt, and no hips. I buy clothes with those "flaws" in mind. Point is, Ashley's clothes were fundamentally unflattering and saying that shouldn't automatically be dismissed as being sizest.

[CoolMom]

Responding to Candice's assertion that leather = strong woman.  She needs to be enlightened to the fact that strong women come in all shapes and sizes AND they might be wearing mom jeans or a beautiful gown.  A strong women doesn't wear a certain outfit to prove she's strong, her actions (or reactions) prove her strength. Candice needs to get out of her studio and meet some real strong women like the mom I recently met whose husband died unexpectedly leaving her with 4 sons to raise with no income or life insurance, the women I know who buried her father and sister within a month of each other or the countless moms I know who've buried a child far too soon and the single moms who raise their kids with no support or my sister who battled breast cancer with zero support from her husband and grown daughters.  None of them wear leather but they are all STRONG women.

 

I am fairly new to PR having only watched 3-4 seasons but DH said as soon as he saw the finalist that Ashley was going to be given the win.  We kept watching because we loved Edmond and his designs and Kelly although more her personality than her clothes.  I did like Kelly's wood grain dress even though others didn't.

[mansonlamps]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and express an extremely unpopular opinion.  I did not hate Ashley's personal style.  I think she looked professional and well put together for the most part.  I wouldn't personally wear that bright yellow skirt, but I didn't hate how Ashley looked in it.  The only thing I would pick on is her thick application of foundation/powder, but if she wasn't sobbing and creating troughs in it constantly, it wouldn't have been nearly as noticeable.

[potatoradio]

 

Point is, Ashley's clothes were fundamentally unflattering and saying that shouldn't automatically be dismissed as being sizest.

 

This really got me thinking about the line between sizeism and critiquing a line of fashion on its own merits. 

 

To me, there's a big difference between poking fun at or criticizing clothes because of the fit or because you think the aesthetic is terrible and generalizing that to "truths" about what plus-size women SHOULD wear, what IS flattering on all plus sizes, how plus sized women SHOULD be designed for, and, especially, what health issues all plus sized women must have. The latter, IMO, is sizeist, sexist BS and being called out on that is not the worst thing that can happen. 

 

If this were a more, ah, nuanced show (use your politics veerrrry thoughtfully, show), maybe there could have been a more open and honest discussion about fashion niches and cliches and stereotypes, but as it is, I just hoped for some visually interesting stuff and an update on Swatch. I saw some interesting stuff. And learned that apparently there's nothing like fat women and clothes to really get a lot of panties (hopefully not granny style) in a bunch. I really hope Swatch is back next season. 

 

 

[Julia]

My take was that women who are disserved by the status quo dislike being told what they should settle for by people who perpetuate the status quo.

 

Specifically, Nina, Zac and Heidi have careers in an industry which enforces the stereotype that an ectomorphic body type is the the norm for healthy women. Natural ectomorphs (which is to say, women who have the build and the natural metabolism to be ultra-slim) are actually quite rare. All the same, the majority of women, who don't naturally fit that phenotype, either do themselves damage to become what they've been told is normal, or choose not to do that and are told they're unhealthy, undisciplined outliers and not deserving of attractive, well-made, well-fitting clothes.

 

Nina, Zac and Heidi just told us that again about the attractive, well-made and well-fitting clothes. My undergarments are not affected, but I do find that distasteful.

 

Mileage varies, of course.

[Kromm]

 I am a plus size women. I hover the line between 18W, 16W, 16, and 14 depending on the day and the bloat, and the cut of the garment.

A few random thoughts concerning Ashley's win-

-for the poster above who wondered about fit issues and how you fit a crop top on a plus size model because there is a fat roll so it doesn't lay flat- the answer is, you don't. As in, you don't send down a crop top on a plus size runway. Nor do you send down granny panties under a see through lace skirt or Mexican fiesta flowers. I ask you- traditional size high fashion designers have been pushing the sheer and the granny panties for years. They occasionally get a ladystar to wear one for a promo. But, have you ever seen a normal woman of any size go spend money on and then wear granny panties in public? No, you have not. And if major established fashion designers can't get that going, then Ashley isn't going to get it going with the fat girls. Most fat girls aren't really all that keen on exposing our bodies to that degree. Most Americans of ANY size aren't that keen on exposing their body to that degree. Normal 40 year old women don't wear crop tops or see through skirts or vintage. Why would she think plus size would? I never saw Ashley wear any of those things on her stay at the show. If she wouldn't wear it, why assume anyone else would?

Bingo!  Thank you for this sanity check here. This wasn't a plot where people were ganging up on the plus sized designer here, but I honestly think mostly observations that she was making choices that most of us thought most real women wouldn't make in the first place.  The whole narrative of the show, the reveal that Ashley won, seemed like a grand act of condescension not because she's working on bigger models, but because she put stupid shit on them and the show just seemed to expect that not only the public in general, but specifically plus-sized viewers would magically be using an Emperor Has No Clothes filter on what we were seeing and deem it great. No. No. It wasn't, and lord it's got to be doubly insulting to someone who actually has to make those choices that the show thinks your're suck a sucker. 

Aside from fit, my real issue with Ashley was that she glued her stuff and other things were clearly either unfinished or poorly done--ie, the falling hem. I find no excuse for that. She knew her assignment, she knew how long she had to complete it. On that level she failed.

Yeah, this is something I was trying to say upthread but may not have said nearly as clearly (I compared it to Candice, where as much as someone might hate the costume element, it was definitely all well sewn).

[jrlr]

Responding to Candice's assertion that leather = strong woman.  She needs to be enlightened to the fact that strong women come in all shapes and sizes AND they might be wearing mom jeans or a beautiful gown.  A strong women doesn't wear a certain outfit to prove she's strong, her actions (or reactions) prove her strength. Candice needs to get out of her studio and meet some real strong women like the mom I recently met whose husband died unexpectedly leaving her with 4 sons to raise with no income or life insurance, the women I know who buried her father and sister within a month of each other or the countless moms I know who've buried a child far too soon and the single moms who raise their kids with no support or my sister who battled breast cancer with zero support from her husband and grown daughters.  None of them wear leather but they are all STRONG women.

 

I am fairly new to PR having only watched 3-4 seasons but DH said as soon as he saw the finalist that Ashley was going to be given the win.  We kept watching because we loved Edmond and his designs and Kelly although more her personality than her clothes.  I did like Kelly's wood grain dress even though others didn't.

This!  I agree with everything you posted, in fact, I made a snarky comment about Candice's perception of a strong woman a few days ago.  Remember when she was so impressed and surprised that a woman was the head of the 3-D printing company?  I found that really bizarre.  I know from what's been written and said that Candice hasn't led a particularly sheltered life (and she lives in the Bay area, for cripes' sake!), so how can she possibly be so clueless?  I know plenty of women whom I consider very strong - myself included - who have dealt with terrible adversities with both strength and grace, and none of us needed black leather to prove ourselves.  I'm surprised she didn't use spiked dog collars as accessories.  And I liked Kelly's wood grained dress, too!  

[slothgirl]

Responding to Candice's assertion that leather = strong woman.  She needs to be enlightened to the fact that strong women come in all shapes and sizes AND they might be wearing mom jeans or a beautiful gown.  A strong women doesn't wear a certain outfit to prove she's strong, her actions (or reactions) prove her strength. Candice needs to get out of her studio and meet some real strong women like the mom I recently met whose husband died unexpectedly leaving her with 4 sons to raise with no income or life insurance, the women I know who buried her father and sister within a month of each other or the countless moms I know who've buried a child far too soon and the single moms who raise their kids with no support or my sister who battled breast cancer with zero support from her husband and grown daughters.  None of them wear leather but they are all STRONG women.

 

Applause.

 

I would even go so far as to say that in many cases, women put on a "strong woman costume" when they are weak, not strong. I get the feeling that Candice is nowhere NEAR as assured and confident of her strength as she tries to convey. I think she may be quite damaged and is trying her hardest to not only overcome it, but give the impression that she already has. I think she is doing the "fake it til you make it" style of personal growth ("act as though you are what you hope to be and you'll be that sooner")

 

For that reason, I disliked all the vitriol sent her way over the course of the season. I don't think she is all that arrogant or smug; on the contrary, I think she's terrified of being "found out" and exposed as a "fraud". I think the damning critique on the mini-collection runway was her worst nightmare and the way she totally submerged her own voice in her effort to gain the judges approval was NOT the decision of a confident designer, certainly not the action of an arrogant one. We've seen designers ignore the judges before because they either arrogantly think they know better or they are confident about who they are. Candice didn't do that at all.

 

Specifically, Nina, Zac and Heidi have careers in an industry which enforces the stereotype that an ectomorphic body type is the the norm for healthy women. Natural ectomorphs (which is to say, women who have the build and the natural metabolism to be ultra-slim) are actually quite rare. All the same, the majority of women, who don't naturally fit that phenotype, either do themselves damage to become what they've been told is normal, or choose not to do that and are told they're unhealthy

I was one of those natural ectomorphs until my late 40's, and it's no picnic either, psycologically, socially or physically. I spent my whole life with relatives trying to fatten me up and people accusing me of eating disorders (they'd assume I was anorexic until they saw how much I ate, then figure I was bulimic) I was as insecure about my appearance in high school as any overweight person, although thankfully once I got to college and became involved in dance (and gained my "freshman 15") I felt much more attractive.

 

However, health issues do exist for anyone over OR under a healthy weight. I had osteoporosis by the time I was 50. An obese person may have an excellent blood panel, but they will have joint problems eventually from carrying too much weight (although they at least might have really strong bones!). Ask anyone in a hospital setting and they will tell you that Obesity and Smoking account for a disproportionate number of cases.

 

The thing is, the weight that is healthy runs a range that is larger than what the fashion industry or our cultural "preference" would deem desirable or attractive. While many Americans ARE overweight, many others that are healthy weights are viewed as "fat" by society. Ashley's models were probably within the range of "healthy weight" with maybe an exception or 2. Ashley herself however, is not, and I don't believe it is prejudiced or shaming to say so, as long as it stops there and doesn't extend into comments about her eating, exercise, other personal habits, or potential medical issues of which we know nothing.

 

Telling "fat" women they need to be, look, or dress a certain way to be attractive (and look thinner) is shaming. Saying that significantly overweight or obese people are at an unhealthy weight is just a medical fact. So are many of the runway models, some of whom are natural ectomorphs, but many are not.

Edited November 11, 2015 by slothgirl

[Kromm]

Responding to Candice's assertion that leather = strong woman.  She needs to be enlightened to the fact that strong women come in all shapes and sizes AND they might be wearing mom jeans or a beautiful gown.  A strong women doesn't wear a certain outfit to prove she's strong, her actions (or reactions) prove her strength. Candice needs to get out of her studio and meet some real strong women like the mom I recently met whose husband died unexpectedly leaving her with 4 sons to raise with no income or life insurance, the women I know who buried her father and sister within a month of each other or the countless moms I know who've buried a child far too soon and the single moms who raise their kids with no support or my sister who battled breast cancer with zero support from her husband and grown daughters.  None of them wear leather but they are all STRONG women.

I can see this point of view totally, but I do think that Candice's leather thing is ultimately not intended to be exclusionary--as in "only women who wear leather are strong".  She's thinking in a visual shorthand that relies on a cliche, and perhaps can't see past that, but then again also had it pounded into her head by the confusing and often self-contradictory judges that she was good for having a distinct point of view/unifying element in her design (which then then panned her for later on, when they felt like taking her down).

 

Take the cliche of dressing in pseudo-military cut to communicate strength. It's the same kind of assumption. Or even the assumption by some that pants vs. skirts/dresses communicates a more independent (thus stronger) woman. I doubt people really truly deeply believe that. It's just a visual cliche that people ride.

Ashley's models were probably within the range of "healthy weight" with maybe an exception or 2. Ashley herself however, is not, and I don't believe it is prejudiced or shaming to say so, as long as it stops there and doesn't extend into comments about her eating, exercise, other personal habits, or potential medical issues of which we know nothing.

Well we've wandered into being a culture where because people can be trollish, and thus there's a counter-reaction with political correctness being ramped up even more, it's dangerous sometimes to even note that someone like Ashley is morbidly obese (a medical term which is just about the extent of her weight and not about the actual health underneath it). A lot of folks immediately knee-jerk see it as sizist.

[TwirlyGirly]

justawatcher, on 11 Nov 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:justawatcher, on 11 Nov 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

 Most fat girls aren't really all that keen on exposing our bodies to that degree. Most Americans of ANY size aren't that keen on exposing their body to that degree.

I agree with everything you said, except the above clip.

 

Have you seen "Say Yes to the Dress"?

 

Let me introduce you to that thread:

 

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/3357-consultants-meeting-all-episodes-talk/page-8#entry1614247

 

There is quite a discussion of the Dress du Jour, aptly called "The Pnina Stripper Fairy Dress" - loved by brides of all shapes and sizes....

 

LOL! (I do realize you were referring to women with TASTE...the women who want to "bare all" at their wedding most certainly do not have any).

Edited November 11, 2015 by TwirlyGirly

[rallymantis]

You guys.  This is all my fault.  I had sworn off the show after it left Bravo -- I tuned in when I saw Edmond on the 1st ep -- I have brought on this disaster by breaking my own boycott!

 

*slinks off to mope*

[justawatcher]

Seriously? A see through corset wedding dress? Why , oh why, did neither Ashley or Candace include THAT in their collection?

[breezy424]

Good point and I'll take a stab at it (all JMO, of course).

The crop tops, yes, poor fit. It wasn't just that they were much too loose at the bottom hem of the crop tops, the bra cup also looked to me like it was swimming on the model's boobs...just generally too big overall. Perhaps if Ashley had chosen a different fabric, perhaps something with stretch instead of what looked to me like a woven fabric, she could have found a way to make it work. Maybe the undergarment (bra) could have been changed to help. The skirts waistbands looked too tight, creating the dreaded muffin top in an effort to, I presume, create an hourglass shape. The dark shorts were clearly too tight for the model's thighs, causing them to ride up into the poor things crotch as she walked since her thighs rubbed together--a common situation for plus sizes (and I speak from experience).

 

There were more but I'm working from my not very good memory. Aside from the fit issues, I question her design choices in making those particular shapes for her women. I realize that she was likely trying to make the statement that anyone can wear various garments, but it looked to me like she had a vision and it over rode the reality of her mirror. Yes, technically anyone can wear just about anything--it may just not be the best choice. Anyone who's ever looked at bathing suits knows that not everything works on everyone, size 0 or size 26.

 

Aside from fit, my real issue with Ashley was that she glued her stuff and other things were clearly either unfinished or poorly done--ie, the falling hem. I find no excuse for that. She knew her assignment, she knew how long she had to complete it. On that level she failed.

Thanks for your reply Beden.  Seems that you're the only one who has.  I find that interesting given all the posts made with general responses about Ashley's clothes being ill fitting without specifics.  OK.  That was a little snarky.  I apologize.

 

For me, the crop tops weren't too loose.  They're a crop top not a 'bra'.  Add to that a looser fit is going to look better on a woman who is not 'skinny'.  The only one that I could say that was anyway  close to swimming was the pink crop top with the pink skirt.  I also think that the point was not to put plus size women in spandex.  I also don't think the waists were too tight.  I actually thought some of them were high in order to avoid the muffin.  The shorts weren't a matter of fit.  That was a matter of friction.  Unfortunately even the best fitted shorts can ride up one someone if their thighs rubs.  I discovered that after a few pregnancies and carried a little weight.  The romper didn't do that because the legs were tight.

 

I agree with you on not everything on a skinny is going to work on someone who is fuller figured.  But I also think that it's shouldn't be taboo for people to wear something fun without looking like a sack.  I had no problems with what her models wore - well, except the last piece which I thought was a bit much with a little overkill on the flowers.

 

On the hem - I have a feeling that was something that happened at the last minute.  I don't think it coincidental that it happened at the same exact spot if the model caused the damage stepping into the dress.  Unfortunately, it probably wasn't noticed.

 

Anyhow, and this is not directed to you Beden,  there were fit issues with some of the other designers' outfits as well.  Kelly basically had the same dress silhouette twice just using different fabric.  That green sparkly top with the flared pants?  And the jumpsuit wasn't looking all that good coming down the runway.  I know I've said it before but there was a lot of criticism of the 'pastels' used by Ashley but Swapnil used a lot of pastels as well.  Candice?  I didn't see Asian.  The only thing that I could say I really liked was the first dress.  Merline?  All I could picture were those stupid  panels ending up between the legs.  Not flattering.  And again, Ashley was not perfection.  And I'm not a fan of laces but she did something the other designers didn't do.  She came up with an original idea that pretty much worked and she put it on what the average woman looks like.  It was fun.  Should the average woman wear these?  Why not.  I think they would look a lot better and feel better wearing one of Ashley's outfits rather than wearing dark colored sacks or spandex.  JMO as a non plus size woman but am tired of hearing that I'm not supposed to wear certain things when you're a certain weight of if you're a certain age.  Did you know it's 'OK' now to wear jeans over sixty but you're not allowed to wear Uggs after fifty?  If you look good, you look good.  I thought Ashley's models looked good and happy.  That's what its' about.

 

Sorry for the rant. 

[Miss Ruth]

breezy424 said, "I find that interesting given all the posts made with general responses about Ashley's clothes being ill fitting without specifics."

 

I didn't respond to your post because I felt if you had seen the show, you should have seen how ugly the clothes were, fit and all.  If you didn't see what I saw, I didn't see how I could explain it to you.  We all see things differently, and don't always feel the need to explain our positions.  :)

 

I don't mean to be rude, but I didn't see those "original ideas" you say Ashley had.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Miss Ruth

[theatremouse]

For me, the crop tops weren't too loose.  They're a crop top not a 'bra'.  Add to that a looser fit is going to look better on a woman who is not 'skinny'.  The only one that I could say that was anyway  close to swimming was the pink crop top with the pink skirt.  I also think that the point was not to put plus size women in spandex.

I disagree with your statements about looseness. A crop top, to my mind, sort of shouldn't be loose. If it's loose it just looks too short/accidental/like someone cut the bottom off a shirt with scissors. I also don't think what we saw with the fit issues with the crop top were that it was not tight.

To my eye, it was specifically one of fit, which amounts to much more than loose/tight. That is, had it fit it would be snug, but neither tight nor loose, and evenly so across the garment/body. What I saw looked like it gaped in some spots, but not others, and when it did, it did so unevenly. Of course, yes, actual human bodies are not perfectly symmetrical, but for this type of fashion show when the garments were sewn by one person and people are sometimes sewn into them if a zipper breaks, you're not exactly dealing with mass produced outfits from Target. The thing should've fit perfectly the model who was intended to wear it. That's why in part 1 we saw Ashley saying she'd have to really pay very close attention to everyone's measurements. That's what they mean when they talk about making sure the fit is right: every piece should look like it were custom made for that one person. Even though it wasn't. Fit is also about making sure it hits the body in the right way and right places (if it does on the mannequin and not on the human, it doesn't fit properly). No unintentional puckering of fabric, etc. That sort of thing. It's not just a loose/tight issue.

Edited November 13, 2015 by theatremouse

[Shannon L.]

Coming out of lurking here:

 

Did you know it's 'OK' now to wear jeans over sixty but you're not allowed to wear Uggs after fifty?

You're not?!  If someone tells me in four short years that I have to give up my Uggs, then they'll have to try prying them away from me--I won't give up without a fight. 

 

I'm one of those people who was "odd" shaped when I was a size 18.  I've always been small busted and they don't just explode when you gain weight-they get bigger when you gain, but they remain the smaller part of the body, so buying dresses was a nightmare because I could almost never find ones that didn't have huge bras built into them.  So, while I wasn't crazy about Ashley's clothes (I haven't felt comfortable in a crop top since I was 23), separates were my thing and, since there was no built in bra that I could see,  I would snap up her teal dress in a heartbeat.  I might wear her first look to a semi formal event if it was a different color (I look horrible in pastels), lined in the same color as the lace and closed in the back.  I may have liked the others better if the fit issue was addressed, but wouldn't wear them myself.  And, like others, I thought the final look was terrible and can't believe they awarded her the win when she admitted to gluing the flowers on! 

 

I'd have been fine with her being second and having Kelly win because Ashley's was different, Kelly's was fun and most everything fit beautifully and was well made, and Edmund and Candice's shows bored me to tears (no matter how beautiful the construction was).  I was so disappointed in Edmund--I was rooting for him. 

[potatoradio]

 

However, health issues do exist for anyone over OR under a healthy weight.

 

Thank you for saying this. What I've noticed is that the reactions to models who look underweight is so different from the reactions to models who look overweight; there are some short-lived and anemic protests about models who are "unhealthily" skinny*, but not the level of vitriol and disgust for "unhealthily" fat models, despite the fact that health risks (mental and physical) at both sides of the spectrum are very real, damaging and permanent. There's a very patriarchal attitude toward underweight women - sort of this "oh, now, you silly thing, stop with all that dieting" whereas with fat women it's almost scary the level of anger I've read. I consider both of those reactions really harmful, sexist and sizeist.

 

I think it has to do with fashion selling a fantasy. An underweight model is far closer to the cultural fantasy of what a woman should look like and, furthermore, what that implies about how they are. An overweight model is a direct challenge to that fantasy and nobody likes their culturally accepted fantasy interrupted. 

 

 

*I'm still putting unhealthy in quotes not to deny the proven medical fact of an associated higher risk of health problems people that are weight or BMI related, but I still maintain that the "unhealthy" zone is different for everyone and, unless, you're an MD and are working with an actual diagnosis, you can't just look at someone and assume, based on appearance, they absolutely, 100% have health problems. 

[Julia]

Add to that a looser fit is going to look better on a woman who is not 'skinny'.

I actually prefer my bodices to be fitted, so I guess I'm lucky that the fashion police haven't been by yet to impose their mandate on my wardrobe :)

Who on earth would enforce the Uggs 'rule'? I'm picturing Kathleen Turner bludgeoning Patty Hearst to death for wearing spectator pumps after labor day in Serial Mom...

[Broderbits]

Indeed, who enforces these fashion rules for us "average" people? We're not walking red carpets, we don't have Talking Heads picking apart our looks; why should we care what Nina thinks about anything? I have eyes and a mirror, that's all the help with wardrobe I need. These shows are (sometimes) amusing, but they certainly don't have anything to do with my reality.

[Linderhill]

 

Indeed, who enforces these fashion rules for us "average" people? We're not walking red carpets, we don't have Talking Heads picking apart our looks; why should we care what Nina thinks about anything? I have eyes and a mirror, that's all the help with wardrobe I need. These shows are (sometimes) amusing, but they certainly don't have anything to do with my reality.

This reminds me, along with that Uggs mandate, about the verbal rule I was told that women shouldn't have long hair (below their shoulders) if its gray.  Of course someone told me that women over 40 shouldn't have long hair either whether its gray or not.   Since I've had long hair (waist length) since college and i'm over 50 and have let the natural gray grow in, I get immensely annoyed with these so-called rules.  I really don't give a crap whether someone wears white after Labor Day, just as even tho I detest the the color combo of light blue and brown, everyone is perfectly entitled to wear these.  Relating it all to Ashly's collection, I do believe that one of the points of her line was to show that you don't have to be pinned down to the stereotypical fashions that larger women are wearing most of the time.  It was refreshing to see these women in bright colors and not in unrelieved black tents.  I wasn't crazy about the flower headpieces but they beat the heck out of the helmet heads that Gretchen subjected her models too and the weird little beanie things one of the other winners (the winner of the ill-fated California season, I'm blanking on her name) have used.  

 

As for the other designers, if Candice had stuck to her guns and not deflated as she did, and defended her line, she may have finished better.  Overall, I didn't think her lineup was very cohesive, the same with Edmond's.  Yes, everything of his but a couple dresses had RUFFLES but there wasn't much design cohesion besides things being black and white.  If both of these designers had of a unifiying theme, something beyond "lets do ruffles!" or "I'm inspired by Asian designs right now" ( didn't see much Asian influence either).

 

Kelly, her designs just didn't move me in the least.  I liked the metal print fabric and the woodgrain looked interesting until she put them on the runway in clothing.  On the runway the woodgrain just looked orange to me.  I wish it had been a shade or more darker.  With the bright lights it was just orange and paired with the silver fabric it looked awful on those pasty pale white models.  That one dress with the mesh bands, just no.  I liked Kelly and thought she was a lovely person and she had some great designs during the season (and I'm so glad she changed her hair from that awful topknot) but her final collection was lacking.

 

Did I see Aube modelling in one of the collections?  I can't remember and haven't the energy to even fastforward thru those boring kiddie show intros. 

[WhoAmIReally]

Relating it all to Ashly's collection, I do believe that one of the points of her line was to show that you don't have to be pinned down to the stereotypical fashions that larger women are wearing most of the time.  It was refreshing to see these women in bright colors and not in unrelieved black tents.

 

Not all big women wear black.  I see a lot them doing a 1940's or 1950's Rockabilly based look, with circle skirts, bright colors, ugly prints, and makeup/hair similar to Ashley's.  Ashley's collection reminded me of something people with that style sense would wear to a wedding.  So it seemed kind of stereotypical to me. 

[jrlr]

I actually prefer my bodices to be fitted, so I guess I'm lucky that the fashion police haven't been by yet to impose their mandate on my wardrobe :)

Who on earth would enforce the Uggs 'rule'? I'm picturing Kathleen Turner bludgeoning Patty Hearst to death for wearing spectator pumps after labor day in Serial Mom...

I LOVE that movie!  It's not the spectator pumps, though, it's just plain old white.  I grew up hearing that idiotic "rule" - no white after Labor Day.  As for Uggs, jeans, etc., I'd like to know just who the "they" are who dictate these inane rules which no one pays attention to anyway.  

 

I personally don't give a hoot how old or young or thin or fat anyone is, just wear what looks good on you and what you feel good in.  

[Kromm]

Relating it all to Ashly's collection, I do believe that one of the points of her line was to show that you don't have to be pinned down to the stereotypical fashions that larger women are wearing most of the time.  It was refreshing to see these women in bright colors and not in unrelieved black tents.

What bright colors?  There was some trim/undergarments that were a brighter blue, but it was 95% what I'd call "Easter Egg" colors. Pink, and those shades of light blue and purple you see in Paas Easter Egg kits.

 

Maybe this is a language issue. I don't consider pastels "bright". The term just doesn't fit for me. "Soft"? Maybe. "Bright"? Nope.

 

That could be ME though. The jewel tones that Tim recommended that she didn't do would have been bright. 

[windfall]

What bright colors?  There was some trim/undergarments that were a brighter blue, but it was 95% what I'd call "Easter Egg" colors. Pink, and those shades of light blue and purple you see in Paas Easter Egg kits.

 

Maybe this is a language issue. I don't consider pastels "bright". The term just doesn't fit for me. "Soft"? Maybe. "Bright"? Nope.

 

That could be ME though. The jewel tones that Tim recommended that she didn't do would have been bright. 

 

I didn't get a bright vibe from her colors either. Personally I consider pastels to be somewhat muted.

[breezy424]

breezy424 said, "I find that interesting given all the posts made with general responses about Ashley's clothes being ill fitting without specifics."

 

I didn't respond to your post because I felt if you had seen the show, you should have seen how ugly the clothes were, fit and all.  If you didn't see what I saw, I didn't see how I could explain it to you.  We all see things differently, and don't always feel the need to explain our positions.  :)

 

I don't mean to be rude, but I didn't see those "original ideas" you say Ashley had.

Well, I didn't ask whether the clothes were ugly in the post you responded to.  I also didn't state anything about original ideas.  As you quoted me, it was specifically about fit.  And I asked that because many posters were criticizing  the fit of the clothes and as I stated, I was curious about it because, as you stated, we all see things differently.  For me, this is what a forum is about but I guess others may feel differently.

 

But whatever, thanks for your 'response'.

[breezy424]

I'm trying to find where I read that Uggs is a no, no after fifty.  Heck.  It might have been even younger than fifty but I haven't been able to find it yet.  It blew my mind to say the least.  And jeans being ok after sixty blew my mind just as much.  There so many 'fashion' gurus out there making 'rules' out there and so many times I just want to say FU.  You haven't a clue.  Yeah, many times I'll see a woman and say to myself, "What were you thinking?"  because it just is not working.....  But that doesn't mean that woman 'have' to adhere to age rules or wait rules or style rules.   And the worst part of it is that women are women's worst critics.

[Kareem]

Not getting into whether or not the clothes were attractive or not (which is a matter of personal taste), there is an interesting blog linked from Project Runway Blog that goes through each of the designers and details what one blogger thought about the clothing: http://democracydiva.com/2015/11/06/project-runway-recap-season-14-finale/- some of her remarks rather match what has been said on this forum about Ashley and the others. Not to say that everyone will agree, but I find it is interesting to read different opinions. There are other blogs at at http://bloggingprojectrunway.blogspot.com/2015/11/recapalooza_8.html which only goes to prove how different people can view the same thing from different viewpoints. And they are as valid, or not, as one agrees, or disagrees, with them.

Whimsey, these links are great. Many thanks again.