S06.E04: Here's Not Here

[Shopkeeper]

Agree, especially when the two Woodbury skirmishes at the Prison are taken into account.

I suppose it's barely possible that on the first skirmish Glenn simply attempted to lay down a suppressing fire to scare off a band of would-be home invaders - but what about the second attack? After Glenn has just seen Herschel beheaded by the Governor, and people with guns are advancing with the intention of killing him and (more importantly) everyone he cares about? We're supposed to believe Glenn isn't shooting to kill under those circumstances?

Tell it to the Marines, because the Navy ain't buying it.

Except that Glenn didn't see Herschel beheaded and wasn't part of that skirmish; he was in the Sick Ward and didn't know what was happening until Maggie came to drag him out to the bus. And when he escaped from Woodbury wasn't he nearly incapacitated and, again, dragged away to safety without being part of the shooting?

 

Now I think he would've been shooting to kill if he'd been able to in those situations, but as I recall, he wasn't able.

 

Then again, I also thought he killed a guard with the shiv made out of the walker arm, but I don't remember that scene very clearly.

[maystone]

All right, let me take a stab at explaining my take on "Here's not here." I see it as referring to the persistent memory of a traumatic moment. Eastman pointed out to Morgan that he (Morgan) keeps opening doors in his mind trying to escape that memory, but he keeps landing in the same moment, reacting to something that is not happening now. PTSD carries the memory, not the reality. (I know it's more complex than that, but that's it as bare bones.) When Morgan takes Eastman back to that clearing where he burned the corpses and scrawled his manic notes on the rocks and trees, Eastman could see him returning to the mindset he (Morgan) had back when he actually performed all of those acts (burning, scrawling). Which is why Eastman wanted him immediately to practice the forms he'd been teaching Morgan. Be present. Be here now. But Morgan can only see what was and doesn't want to contaminate his newfound - and fragile - centering with the madness that he had suffered there. He cannot separate the actions from the place where the actions occurred. That's why he kept shouting that he couldn't practice "here!" But Eastman can separate the two. Here - this 20 x 30 (or whatever) lot in the woods - is just a place: grass, trees, rocks. It should hold no power over Morgan. That's why he yells back at Morgan, "Here's not here!" Your memory is not this place. It's all very Baba Ram Dass :)

[Muffyn]

The thing that is still bothering me is Morgan was all about clearing an area in his crazypants, PTSD fugue state mode.  But he killed the possible father and son and did not kill their brains.  So the area was not “clear.”  The area was cleared except for two new walkers he created.  He does belong with CDB, making stupid decisions and ruining lives as he goes.

[peach]

 Which is why Eastman wanted him immediately to practice the forms he'd been teaching Morgan. Be present. Be here now. But Morgan can only see what was and doesn't want to contaminate his newfound - and fragile - centering with the madness that he had suffered there. He cannot separate the actions from the place where the actions occurred. That's why he kept shouting that he couldn't practice "here!" But Eastman can separate the two. Here - this 20 x 30 (or whatever) lot in the woods - is just a place: grass, trees, rocks. It should hold no power over Morgan. That's why he yells back at Morgan, "Here's not here!" Your memory is not this place. It's all very Baba Ram Dass :)

 

That is very insightful.  Thank you.

 

I wish Eastman could have told Carol that when they left that awesome pecan orchard setup, because "it was a graveyard."  She was all "not here" about it. 

[magemaud]

 

were they bodies covered up on the floor next to him?

 

 

3.) Not that I noticed.

Thanks for your answers. I re-watched the last few minutes and what I thought might be covered up bodies appears to be some kind of makeshift mattress or building supplies, too short to be a person when compared to the Wolf's extended legs and there appears to be a big log on top. Edited to add, it does look more like a nasty slash wound than a bite. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by magemaud

[Jalyn]

And now Show has built up Morgan into a straw man, a person who will not kill no matter what, a position which flies in the face of reality even in the non-ZA world.  Even Cheeseman said he would not let Morgan kill him.  Living as a pacifist doesn't mean you won't protect yourself or your loved ones if need be.  His position and attitude are so far extreme that it is ridiculous and invites contempt for the character, which is happening in the fandom now.  He's been set up to make the Governor's philosophy more palatable, to provide a false counterpoint to it.  I refuse to believe that the reasonable man of season 1 episode 1 is gone.  Somewhere in there, deep down, between a psycho who speared a man through the throat and strangled another with his bare hands, and a Shaolin monk espousing "do no harm to any living being...respect all life, for every life is precious" is the Morgan I remember.  I don't think he's gone for good but as soon as we get him back it's the end for him.

 

I don't think either philosophy is meant to be palatable. The governor was obviously a maniac. When we've seen Rick going down similar roads, it's shown to be a bridge too far. The polar opposite, however, is also not reasonable. 

Sometimes it is necessary to end a threat - especially if there are other relying on you for their security. Sometimes, however, it is not. The real trick is figuring out who can be saved and who can't. Rick, in Eastman's position, would have killed someone who acted like Morgan. We all know that that would have been a mistake, because Morgan could be brought back to humanity. I don't think, however, that we would judge Rick for the choice.

I think the entire point is that there are no good options and certainly no right options. One way to move forward, that might be reasonable, is try to avoid killing humans unless they are directly putting you, yours or presumed innocents in danger and there is no other way to stop them. If you have the luxury of trying to re-socialize them (as Eastman did with Morgan) without putting others in danger, it's a good thing to do. I don't think, however, that there would be a moral duty to do so. 

It all leads to the need for balance. You have to be willing to give at least some trust for there ever to be a society again. You also have to be willing to end threats to the society, either through restraining the threat or terminating it. 

We're seeing the same need for balance in the low key argument Daryl is having with Rick regarding looking for new people to bring into Alexandria. Daryl thinks that they still need to bring in people, both to help with the town and to help those that are still out there. Rick thinks that they should stop looking - I don't think he's said what they should do if people stumble across the town. I expect we're going to see Aaron, formerly on Daryl's side, change over to Rick's side in this argument after the picture debacle. 

I don't expect that we'll ever see a society get to the healthy, balanced philosophy because the show runners think that the extremes are where they can mine drama. (Although, if we do, it'll be a society that our folk join and they'll somehow bring an entire horde down on top of them and destroy it within half a season.)

 

[Anela]

Thank you.  From what I've read, Darabont's contributions were massive (his fingerprints are all over every aspect of the show, that was a direct quote -- but this ended after SDCC 2011 -- he was editing an early S2 ep -- the director had sent him unusable footage so he was trying to salvage it when he was fired).  It was a labor of love for him.  He was the creator of the TWD television show, everyone gives him props for that, and it doesn't take away from Kirkman or GAH or anyone else.  It's just too bad AMC picked it up!  HBO passed because it was deemed too violent.  Oh the irony.

 

Funny how Darabont keeps popping up in this ep thread though.  Must be the expensive outdoor scenes.

 

Am feeling the same way about this episode.  Have not rewatched it.

 

Is Morgan the straw man here? 

HBO thought this was too violent, but aired Game of Thrones, six months later? I guess the one good thing there, is that there isn't a need for women to be nude at least once every episode. 

 

Re: the episode. I'm also used to seeing JCL play a terrifying guy. Last year, a serial killer clown, and just last week, another serial killer. 

[BrokenRemote]

The more I read "all lives are precious," the madder I get, haha! Listen here, Morgan, if indeed all lives are precious, then how come the ones belonging to the people who are not committing grisly murder all willy-nilly in the broad daylight are the ones being taken? I mean, go ahead and have a creed, dude...but at least try to take the right turn if/when you come to a crossroads that nullifies said creed! A contingency creed, if you will.

 

Exactly.  It bothered me when, on Talking Dead, Lennie James was asked if Morgan made the right decision not killing the wolves, even knowing now that it lead to people being killed and possibly more dying down the line.  He replied that, yes, Rick's way gets people killed too, so even knowing he put peoples' lives at risk Morgan did the right thing. 

 

Eastman's way was fully possible in that isolated cabin,  but where he is now Morgan cannot choose a path where he is not causing someone to die.  By taking no action he's still absolutely killing

 

I'm also getting weary of the same moral dilemma repeating time after time: Back at the farm Dale wants to let the kid (Rusty?) live, Shane wants him dead; Father Gabriel doesn't want to kill the Termites (or anyone else), Rick and the rest take them out and absolutely horrify Gabe in the doing; Deanna doesn't want anyone armed in town but Rick knows that he has to not only be armed but kill humans to protect the (again horrified) group; Morgan doesn't want to kill anyone--including the Wolves--Rick and the group know they must...

 

Over and over it's one character adamant about not killing humans versus a person or group who believes that living now now means kill or be killed.   I'm sure that this dilemma would logically present itself and probably more than once; it's a poignant, very human conflict at its base.  What does it mean to be human in a world where such things happen?  But I wish they'd at least find a new way to present it, or let there be some breathing room between the same story spinning out again and again.

 

For example, at the very end of last season Gabriel was telling Deana that Rick and his group were bad people (based on their killing ways).  And then we saw him do a 180 in what was about one day of story time and deciding out of the blue that he'd been wrong and was fine now about the killing.  In fact, he now wants to learn to fight.  It's as though TPTB had to resolve Gabriel's moral dilemma as quickly as possible so that they could bring in Morgan's moral dilemma. Let it play out and let the audience process it before telling it again!

 

(On another note I've been gone for a while for health reasons and I've really missed you guys and your smarts and stuff!  It's so nice to come here and find some intelligent discussion to help in digesting each episode!)

[Nashville]

Except that Glenn didn't see Herschel beheaded and wasn't part of that skirmish; he was in the Sick Ward and didn't know what was happening until Maggie came to drag him out to the bus. And when he escaped from Woodbury wasn't he nearly incapacitated and, again, dragged away to safety without being part of the shooting?

Now I think he would've been shooting to kill if he'd been able to in those situations, but as I recall, he wasn't able.

Then again, I also thought he killed a guard with the shiv made out of the walker arm, but I don't remember that scene very clearly.

You're probably right; there was so much going on in that episode I'd have to watch it again to refresh on who is (or isn't) doing what.

Serves me right for sneaking a look at - and trying to respond to - posts while working. :>

Edited November 3, 2015 by Nashville

[Andromeda]

Sometimes it is necessary to end a threat - especially if there are other relying on you for their security. Sometimes, however, it is not. The real trick is figuring out who can be saved and who can't. Rick, in Eastman's position, would have killed someone who acted like Morgan. We all know that that would have been a mistake, because Morgan could be brought back to humanity. I don't think, however, that we would judge Rick for the choice.

I think the entire point is that there are no good options and certainly no right options. One way to move forward, that might be reasonable, is try to avoid killing humans unless they are directly putting you, yours or presumed innocents in danger and there is no other way to stop them. If you have the luxury of trying to re-socialize them (as Eastman did with Morgan) without putting others in danger, it's a good thing to do. I don't think, however, that there would be a moral duty to do so.

I agree!

 

I don't get the morality of leaving serial killers alive. I had the same problem with the decision not to take out the Termites. If they're proven mass murderers, the moral thing to do is kill them so they don't kill innocent passers-by! the same with the wolves -- we saw how that turned out. Morgan isn't thinking about the innocent passers-by here... Or does he imagine the people will just change their minds about taking people out in the time between Morgan letting them go and when they come upon new people? Yes, killing them is pre-emptive crime prevention, but this is the zombie apocalypse, and the killers have killed before. I would have put Morgan on that kill list if he didn't stop killing innocent passers-by.

These people need a council to decide these things, some rules for their new society. They don't have the luxury of a criminal justice system like we have today. If they catch a Wolf, and that wolf has no remorse and says he will kill everyone, including the children -- death sentence. Morgan expressed regret and self-hate (he still has a conscience), and his Obi-Wan managed to save him -- allow him to live (but keep an eye on him!).

 

Plus there's the whole tribal aspect. I think of our group as a new tribe. Tribes develop rules and a code (and a culture) based on expediency and survival. Anyone who presents themselves as an enemy of the tribe, such as the wolves who belong to another tribe that wants to destroy them, should be removed without remorse.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Andromeda

[morgankobi]

Forgive me for asking (probably dumb) questions, but here goes...#1) Did the Pet Wolf Morgan is keeping in the unfinished townhouse say to him (when the Wolves got inside ASZ,) "YOU weren't supposed to be here!" #2) do we know for sure that Wolf was bitten or was he injured in another way which is not necessarily life threatening #3) were they bodies covered up on the floor next to him? 

Re, #2: Actually, the wolf's injury looked more like a mostly-healed knife slash, not a bite. What's the general consensus?

[riverheightsnancy]

Such a good discussion. I keep going back to the idea of what is "moral" and what is alive or dead? (in Morgan's world, that is) Is it any more moral for Morgan to hurt a Wolf enough but not kill him and let the person go, who MIGHT die of his wounds a week later and then becomes a Walker that STILL kills everyone and makes more Walkers? How is that helping? Which is more moral? Killing a Wolf or killing a Walker? If he doesn't kill the Wolf that ultimately becomes the Walker, is that the same person? Does Morgan see them as different or are they the same? Does Morgan construe the act of taking down a "Walker" as "killing"? Can you only kill something that is alive? If they are "dead", are you killing them? If so, how does he justify that? What does Morgan then call it, if not alive? If he can see shades of gray here, why only here?  

 

I think that Morgan has latched onto a dogma that, on the surface, is very simple statement, but in reality is a complex theoretical cognitive concept. This is like when we tell a three year-old the magical story of Santa Claus. They accept it at face value because that is the extent of their reasoning abilities at that time. Right now, Morgan is very traumatized and this is the extent of his cognitive abilities. If he just holds on to this one thing, this one statement, perhaps he will make it out to the other side as he heals. I think that we have seen shades of this type of thinking in Carol and Rick at times because the world is too overwhelming with threats coming from everywhere. When one is under extensive cognitive load and emotional reactivity, it is easier to have one rule, and you just follow that without thinking about all the "what ifs". Like telling kids, "Thou shall not steal". So simple, yet so complex. Pondering all the "what ifs" can leave you arguing and talking forever and being stuck in procrastination and get you chomped by a Walker. I don;t think that Morgan can deal with all the "what ifs" right now. He just needs a simple message as a touchstone for his life. It is like a defense mechanism in some way. It is exactly the same thing as having the JSS mantra. Enough pondering, back to work!   ;) 

Edited November 3, 2015 by riverheightsnancy

[Nashville]

Re, #2: Actually, the wolf's injury looked more like a mostly-healed knife slash, not a bite. What's the general consensus?

Slashing wound - not bite.

  

I think that Morgan has latched onto a dogma that, on the surface, is very simple statement, but in reality is a complex theoretical cognitive concept.

IMHO it can be simplified further than that.

Morgan has latched onto a dogma which only works if everybody with whom you're dealing is on roughly the same page.

Great if you're solo.

Maybe manageable in one-on-one encounters.

Group-on-group encounters, though...? Cue Santa Claus to step in and mediate.

[rab01]

Such a good discussion. I keep going back to the idea of what is "moral" and what is alive or dead? (in Morgan's world, that is) Is it any more moral for Morgan to hurt a Wolf enough but not kill him and let the person go, who MIGHT die of his wounds a week later and then becomes a Walker that STILL kills everyone and makes more Walkers? How is that helping? Which is more moral? Killing a Wolf or killing a Walker? If he doesn't kill the Wolf that ultimately becomes the Walker, is that the same person? Does Morgan see them as different or are they the same? Does Morgan construe the act of taking down a "Walker" as "killing"? Can you only kill something that is alive? If they are "dead", are you killing them? If so, how does he justify that? What does Morgan then call it, if not alive? If he can see shades of gray here, why only here?  

 

I think that Morgan has latched onto a dogma that, on the surface, is very simple statement, but in reality is a complex theoretical cognitive concept. This is like when we tell a three year-old the magical story of Santa Claus. They accept it at face value because that is the extent of their reasoning abilities at that time. Right now, Morgan is very traumatized and this is the extent of his cognitive abilities. If he just holds on to this one thing, this one statement, perhaps he will make it out to the other side as he heals. I think that we have seen shades of this type of thinking in Carol and Rick at times because the world is too overwhelming with threats coming from everywhere. When one is under extensive cognitive load and emotional reactivity, it is easier to have one rule, and you just follow that without thinking about all the "what ifs". Like telling kids, "Thou shall not steal". So simple, yet so complex. Pondering all the "what ifs" can leave you arguing and talking forever and being stuck in procrastination and get you chomped by a Walker. I don;t think that Morgan can deal with all the "what ifs" right now. He just needs a simple message as a touchstone for his life. It is like a defense mechanism in some way. It is exactly the same thing as having the JSS mantra. Enough pondering, back to work!   ;) 

Yeah, I think the show is making it very clear that Morgan is adopting this philosophy from a point of extreme damage. I think he has recovered a bit more in the "current" time than in the time of this episode but, no, he's not sane yet. (To be honest though, I'm not sure which of the current characters are sane or how that would be defined in the ZA.) I don't think, however, that Morgan is pursuing it to some of the extremes you posit. He clearly has no issue with putting down walkers and we have no reason yet to think that he is or isn't a vegetarian. Based on his experiences, he believes that there were times in his past when he killed people that he did not have to kill and that he should have been put down himself. He's now been faced with a person he did not kill coming back to try to kill him and others. His thinking will probably change (but, knowing this show, it will be too late). The weirdest thing about all of this is why the show had him arguing with Carol in the middle of a war. How could he have possibly thought they could beat back THAT assault without death?

 

His current position still leaves him a whole lot more useful to a group than 90% of the ASZhats who are useless against the living and the dead. At least Morgan can be useful in guarding against walkers (and he subdued 2 wolves during the attack). As for letting the 5 wolves go, he couldn't stop them so it's not like he just decided to let them run away with a gun.

 

There are plenty of shades of gray to be had. I can't tell yet whether Morgan is supposed to be able to spot those differences yet or not. I guess we'll see in how he dies. That said, it's pretty clear that some of the characters are too far the other way. Nicholas was going to kill Glenn just to keep his standing (like the Grady doctor did) and Rick killed porchdick for no need other than Deanna's say-so. The town has a jail (Morgan was in it and he now seems to be using it for his pet wolf) and they could've put Pete in it.

Edited November 3, 2015 by rab01

[Mars7]

No, Frank Darabont was the original showrunner and developer of TWD TV show. The Walking Dead was created by Robert Kirkman originally as a comic book. In fact, Darabont was co-hired with Gale Anne Hurd as executive producers when the show began development, so he can't even get sole credit for that.

 

Granted, I'm not sure who did what for how long, but to say Darabont was the creator of TWD in any way is just wrong.

 

You are correct.  According to Wikipedia:

 

 

The Walking Dead (2010–2011)[edit]

Main article: The Walking Dead (TV series)

Darabont developed and executive-produced the first season of The Walking Dead, the AMC series based on Robert Kirkman's comic book of the same name.[17][18] Darabont recalled first coming across the series in a comic book store in Burbank, California in 2005.[19] When Darabont became interested, Kirkman called it "extremely flattering" and went on to say that "he definitely cares about the original source material, and you can tell that in the way he's adapting it."[20] Darabont first initiated a deal with NBC for The Walking Dead, but was later declined and eventually brought it to AMC, who picked it up based on the source material and Darabont's involvement.[21] Darabont wrote and directed the pilot and was executive producer of the first season along with Gale Anne Hurd.[22][23] The series features a number of actors who have regularly worked with Darabont in the past, including Jeffrey DeMunn, Laurie Holden and Melissa McBride. The series earned positive reviews upon release and the pilot received 5.3 million viewers, making it the most-watched series premiere episode of any AMC television series.[24]

In July 2011, Darabont was fired from the position as showrunner.[25] Initial reports suggested that he was unable to adjust to the schedule of running a television series;[25] however, it was later confirmed that he was fired due to the show's reduced budget (twice as many episodes for 20% less of a budget) and his strained relationship with the executives of AMC.[26]

.  

Edited November 3, 2015 by Mars7

[Caelicola]

I'm taking my cue from Abraham, and will now only speak in silly, possibly mixed metaphors, because it's fun.

I think Morgan was a drowning man in an ocean of horribleness, and grasped the very first thing that kept him afloat. He's holding on tight to it, without realizing that if he swam just a little bit further he'd find a little sandbar on which to rest his feet and find some balance.

That said, not one member of CDB has actually reached that sandbar, they're just swimming furiously instead of floating seemingly at peace.

No one is stable, no one is balanced, they've all chosen to not drown in slightly different ways; Rick swims hard and sometimes climbs on top of people and drowns them to avoid waves, or pushes them in front of sharks to save his kids; Carol is mercilessly, efficiently swimming along, sometimes drowning the people around her and sometimes helping them, if helping them doesn't hurt her and her peeps; Michonne and Glenn (yeah, I'll keep counting him until they show me the bones, I'm not fooled by your trolling in the credits, show!) encourage the people around them and sometimes even drag them along; Daryl is now starting to do the same, but only when those people prove themselves trustworthy; Sasha keeps going under, and sometimes stays under for just close enough to die. FPP still has floaties on, and he's complaining all the way anyway.

Morgan is just floating, tied to a buoy, and he's convinced himself and the others that it's what he wants, and the best course of action, but he's still at sea, and still going nowhere.

And I'm a bit drunk, so I had an unreasonable amount of fun writing this crap.

If you want the full Abraham experience, imagine that the ocean is made of shit, and Rick Grimes knows every fine grain of said shit.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Caelicola

[Mattipoo]

What a boring episode, and long too! I felt like I was watching "The Karate Kid" with Jackie Chan and Jayden Smith. They should at least have cast an actual aikido expert like Steven Seagal in the role of Eastman just for shits and giggles. I think John Carroll Lynch killed the part though. Between Twisty the Clown in "American Horror Story" and this role, he is really cornering the market on great guest spots on television. Morgan's backstory is meh otherwise. Hope they get back to the happenings at Alexandria and Rick's and Glenn's fates next week.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Mattipoo

[TattleTeeny]

Except that Glenn didn't see Herschel beheaded and wasn't part of that skirmish; he was in the Sick Ward and didn't know what was happening until Maggie came to drag him out to the bus. And when he escaped from Woodbury wasn't he nearly incapacitated and, again, dragged away to safety without being part of the shooting?

 

Hold on--didn't Glenn not know that Hershel was dead until he teamed up with leftover Tara to leave the prison? She said something about the Governor killing "that old man" and Glenn responded with sad shock. Am I nuts?

Edited November 4, 2015 by TattleTeeny

[ParadoxLost]

Yeah, I think the show is making it very clear that Morgan is adopting this philosophy from a point of extreme damage. I think he has recovered a bit more in the "current" time than in the time of this episode but, no, he's not sane yet. (To be honest though, I'm not sure which of the current characters are sane or how that would be defined in the ZA.)

 

I think Morgan is equally damaged or at least still so damaged that its more a matter of how he handles the psychological issues and the degree of improvement is so little that its hard to tell the difference.  Its expected given that he's brought back from the brink by a guy how lost his family to a killer, plotted and executed a drawn out and painful revenge, found out the world ended, and spent years in isolation.  I wouldn't be surprised if Morgan goes into every situation with a silent 'kill me' and has just switched from killing everyone to hoping to die sparing a life.

 

Whether Morgan comes through this and gets better is going to depend on CDB, specifically Carl, Rick, Michonne, Carol, and Daryl.  Morgan is enough like them that I think he needs a group of people to take up the slack.  And those five do really do have a symbiotic relationship to the point of if one of them goes crazy, then another goes crazy in the opposite direction and the rest become more stable.

 

But I don't think odds are good of Morgan being let in.  Because first, he won't ask and CDB won't force it and second, I think the Wolf in captivity is going to cause too much trouble before Morgan is really part of the group.

 

The episode 'Clear' is kind of interesting in retrospect.  Its when Carl gave Michonne the stamp of approval that started cementing her into the inner circle and when Michonne started supporting/helping Rick dealing with the 'I see dead people' crazy.  But the key was Michonne chose to join the group rather than staying on her own.  But at the same time, Morgan decided not to join and Rick (rightly, IMO) decided to let live and not take on the crazy.  This episode proves that Morgan needed someone to force the issue but now its been accomplished in a way that CDB won't agree with and if it blows up in a way that hurts someone close to them , they won't forgive.

[Caelicola]

Hold on--didn't Glenn not know that Hershel was dead until he teamed up with leftover Tara to leave the prison? She said something about the Governor killing "that old man" and Glenn responded with sad shock. Am I nuts?

Committing fully to my Abrahamness tonight, no, you're not nuts, you're almonds, super healthy and delicious, especially when chopped up and put in a chocolate chip cookie, or ground into flour and used to bake macarons!

Aaand I might have now steered into Gareth territory.

But yeah, you're right, that's exactly what happened.

[Save Yourself]

I'm sure Eastman said others were charmed by the pyscho, but he never was. In fact the pyscho targeted Eastman when he realized that Eastman saw through the facade. I didn't get the impression Eastman was actively doing the zen stuff at work. It was developed after he murdered the pyscho and of course he reflects back on his life through this prism.

 

But we didn't know Morgan was talking to the wolf at the start of the episode. That was revealed at the end.

He made a short mention of going to his home to get the drywall his daughter had drawn on. I don't recall what he said but it was risky and dangerous. He also said he needed more supplies and was happy for Morgan's company because he didn't want to or couldn't do it alone. He didn't suffer what CDB dinner, but he wasn't as delusional as the ASZhats.

 

But in the end, although he was bitten by a walker that Morgan didn't brain kil (I don't know why that occured?), it was nice that Eastman's end of life came with a friend by his side. A friend with whom he could share some wisdom. Zen indeedy.

That's the impression I got as well and you do often here that sort of comment made about notorious serial killers like Dahmer, how charming they are which is how they managed to easily get to their prey. He also said quite a bit that the people he interviewed had done horrific things.

Oh I thought we knew from what Morgan said at the beginning? He repeated the words the Wolf originally said to him at the campfire and because it was ambiguous last week whether he killed him or not I thought that must be who he was telling his tale too.

I think him not 'brain killing' that guy was pure plot contrivance, makes no sense that Morgan would not stop someone turning - especially since he was 'clearing'.

[Macbeth]

I feel bad for Morgan.  He can't kill humans.  He is afraid - rightfully so - that he may make another trip to crazy town - where he will be begging someone to kill him.  He knows his limits.  

 

"All life is precious" is not a philosophy but a coping mechanism from keeping from going back over the edge again.  It's his rubber band that he snaps against his wrist to keep him in the moment and to remind himself that all life is precious - even his own.

 

 

[TattleTeeny]

Committing fully to my Abrahamness tonight, no, you're not nuts, you're almonds, super healthy and delicious, especially when chopped up and put in a chocolate chip cookie, or ground into flour and used to bake macarons!

Aaand I might have now steered into Gareth territory.

But yeah, you're right, that's exactly what happened.

Well! Much better than the standard, "No, you're not" response! You should always channel Abraham! 

[Ellaria]

The choices that this show makes are confusing. We go from three rock-em, sock-em episodes to an extra long flashback with lots of philosophy and stick twirling.

I enjoy character back stories. It is a story telling element that has been under used or poorly used in this show. This last episode is no exception. Why did we need 90 minutes devoted to nothing but Morgan, Eastman and cute little Tabitha? A little bit of Morgan's journey would have sufficed. Or telling the entirety of it across a few episodes.

Overall, I enjoyed it but I wish there had been less of it. The backstory could have been mixed with Morgan in Alexandria in the present day, regrouping after the attack of the Wolves. This isn't a show that should give viewers much time to breathe.

And they need to stop killing animals! (A silly demand, I know.) I'm kind of wishing that the animals in the ZA would join together a la "Zoo" and rid the world of walkers...and of some of the people.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Ellaria Sand

[Save Yourself]

One thing I found funny about this episode was the way Morgan carried on the Atlanta group's tradition of utterly destroying the way of life for anyone they stumble across. Every single viewer knew Eastman was dead the minute he appeared on screen. Oh sure, he had a nice isolated cabin, power, food, a goat and awesome Aikido skills but that's all worthless once you've run into one of the regular cast members. Just resign yourself to imparting some wisdom or solving a problem before you encounter a death you've managed to avoid for the last couple years.

 

 

 Lol, I had the exact same thought!!! I meant to post about it but forgot to, I'm glad you did. 

[Save Yourself]

Eastman burying the bodies reminded me of another bugbear of mine - I can't stand that they continue to bury bodies! I could understand it in the beginning when it was still so new to have people die but honestly, by the time they were at the prison I think they should have just given up on it. Yes, I understand the whole 'we bury our own' yadda yadda but it seems to me a massive waste of resources in the time it takes and the calories burnt up when they don't have much to eat. It was so annoying for me when they buried Tyresse when they were practically starving! I am becoming a real sociopath watching this show lol.

[Dr.Jacoby]

I enjoy character back stories. It is an story telling element that has been under used or poorly used in this show. This last episode is no exception.

The one time they did it really well (well, that stands out to me anyway) was Michonne's nightmare which gave us her condensed mini-backstory while managing to be interesting and incredibly unsettling- that was a genuine horror moment imo when she slid the too-big katana into the tiny knife block and the horrible jumps in time to the boyfriend and friend as zombies at the table- still gives me chills!

[Bongo Fury]

Is the whole Morgan storyline a rip off of Star Wars? With Eastman as Yoda and Morgan as Obi Wan? And they'll repeat the Obi Wan failure to train Anikan to be a Jedi like Yoda did with him? Morgan will fail to redeem the Wolf? With equally dire consequences.

[BellyLaughter]

I am not alone! lol... I suppose kudos to his acting, but JCL is eternally a "bad guy" in my head because he gives a creepy vibe without trying. I could not buy this psychiatrist being a Miyagi mentoring Morgan in the ways of Zen, when it's canon in my head he killed and raped in alternate universes ;) The way they shot the training was cheesy (tone was so out of place), and the shove-Morgan-Aw!-I-got-bit was so contrived.

 

Overall, meh for me, too.

 

I struggled with this episode for the same reason.  Gothika people, Gothika.  

[ParadoxLost]

The choices that this show makes are confusing. We go from three rock-em, sock-em episodes to an extra long flashback with lots of philosophy and stick twirling.

I enjoy character back stories. It is a story telling element that has been under used or poorly used in this show. This last episode is no exception. Why did we need 90 minutes devoted to nothing but Morgan, Eastman and cute little Tabitha? A little bit of Morgan's journey would have sufficed. Or telling the entirety of it across a few episodes.

 

I find two things curious about the placement of this episode.  First is that it would have fit better in the immediate aftermath of the Wolves so it feels like straight viewer manipulation and nothing else.  It needed to be paired closely to the aftermath of the Wolves or to whatever havoc the Wolf he is holding will wreak when he inevitably escapes.  But it seems choppier than that and it breaks the tension.

 

The other thing that makes me suspect that Morgan may not be long for the show is that the flashback clues in the viewer on what happened with Morgan but does nothing to get him closer to the other characters.  I tend to think the show isn't going to want to explain Morgan's motivations twice so when it hits the fan Morgan is going to be a dead man walking.  At best it will be Father Gabriel levels of not being allowed to participate in anything that requires trust.

[HalcyonDays]

I find two things curious about the placement of this episode.  First is that it would have fit better in the immediate aftermath of the Wolves so it feels like straight viewer manipulation and nothing else.  It needed to be paired closely to the aftermath of the Wolves or to whatever havoc the Wolf he is holding will wreak when he inevitably escapes.  But it seems choppier than that and it breaks the tension.

 

I'm wondering if there is some more serious shit about to go down in the Walking Dead-verse, that Gimple and co really, really didn't want to break up, disrupt, so decided that a) they still wanted/were determined to have a Morgan-focused episode and b) placed it as episode 4, to best not disrupt the rest of the season. Just speculation.

 

And they need to stop killing animals! (A silly demand, I know.) I'm kind of wishing that the animals in the ZA would join together a la "Zoo" and rid the world of walkers...and of some of the people.

 

Here here! I wholeheartedly agree!

 

"All life is precious" is not a philosophy but a coping mechanism from keeping from going back over the edge again.

 

I think so. Eastman doesn't have the benefit of the knowledge that we viewers know about how truly messed up the Zombie Apocalypse is. We viewers are so "educated" on the show, that we totally get that trusting certain people, is just plain stupid.

 

But if one is isolated, then one doesn't know any better. Not an excuse, just a reality. Like, the Alexandrians haven't gone through the turmoil and suffering and total anarchy and insane violence that CDB has gone through over and over again, so they know nothing. Walk a Mile in My Shoes, you know?

[CletusMusashi]

Re, #2: Actually, the wolf's injury looked more like a mostly-healed knife slash, not a bite. What's the general consensus?

I agree, but I'm not sure it was meant to look healed. Even TWD isn't as gory as actual real-life wounds.

[CletusMusashi]

IMHO it can be simplified further than that.

Morgan has latched onto a dogma which only works if everybody with whom you're dealing is on roughly the same page.

Great if you're solo.

Maybe manageable in one-on-one encounters.

Group-on-group encounters, though...? Cue Santa Claus to step in and mediate.

There is no Santa Claus.

Brillip killed hiim.

[CletusMusashi]

What a boring episode, and long too! I felt like I was watching "The Karate Kid" with Jackie Chan and Jayden Smith. They should at least have cast an actual aikido expert like Steven Seagal in the role of Eastman just for shits and giggles. I think John Carroll Lynch killed the part though. Between Twisty the Clown in "American Horror Story" and this role, he is really cornering the market on great guest spots on television. Morgan's backstory is meh otherwise. Hope they get back to the happenings at Alexandria and Rick's and Glenn's fates next week.

First of all, as much as I love Jackie Chan, the movie you speak of is NOT "The Karate Kid!"

Pat Morita is the one true Mr. Miyagi.

Unless you count Benjamin Chang.

Steven Seagal? Egads, no! If you just want to have some fun annoying people with him, at least set your sights bigger and make him the next Batman or something. I thought Twisty was a good fit for this role. I mean, sure, i am a tad baffled why a vegetarian farmer who's always digging graves, practicing martial arts, and dragging dead bodies around is still so.. voluptuous... but that's obviously what they wanted for the character. So, actually, we were talking at work today about who else could play what part on the show, and the only actor who we agreed would maybe be as good a fit for CheeseWhiz was Penn Jillette.

Edited November 4, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[ghoulina]

I feel bad for Morgan.  He can't kill humans.  He is afraid - rightfully so - that he may make another trip to crazy town - where he will be begging someone to kill him.  He knows his limits. 

"All life is precious" is not a philosophy but a coping mechanism from keeping from going back over the edge again.  It's his rubber band that he snaps against his wrist to keep him in the moment and to remind himself that all life is precious - even his own.

 

You know, I didn't look at it that way at first, but I think you have really simplified the issue perfectly. He's like an alcoholic or other type of addict. He's afraid if he has one drink, he'll spiral back into being a full grown lush. So he has to do something, believe something, that keeps him on the straight and narrow. I get it, from his perspective, and I can see the sadness in it. It just won't work, though. Letting bad guys live makes it almost certain that those bad guys will go kill good guys, maybe even ones he cares about. At some point he's going to have to decide which lives are more "precious" than others. 

[JackONeill]

Eastman burying the bodies reminded me of another bugbear of mine - I can't stand that they continue to bury bodies! I could understand it in the beginning when it was still so new to have people die but honestly, by the time they were at the prison I think they should have just given up on it. Yes, I understand the whole 'we bury our own' yadda yadda but it seems to me a massive waste of resources in the time it takes and the calories burnt up when they don't have much to eat. It was so annoying for me when they buried Tyresse when they were practically starving! I am becoming a real sociopath watching this show lol.

 

Not to get overly practical, but I live In Georgia. Digging holes that large just isn't easy. Not at all. It's hard compacted clay, with plenty of rocks (and NOT small ones) and roots from trees. So, if you want to dig a hole, plan on about 3-4 hours with about 3-4 hardy people, with shovels and picks. But, I realize, this is TV.

[JackONeill]

There is no Santa Claus.

Brillip killed hiim.

You gave me an idea for a truly morbid show: TWD does to Disney World and they run into all the characters, like Snow White and Mickey, but they are all WALKERS!!!!  Cool, huh? Think we can get Disney to play along?

[nodorothyparker]

Maybe the giant character suits provided some modicum of protection?  Would a walker eventually lose interest trying to bite through a Goofy head?

 

That reminds me of one of my favorite minor details of the walkers in the first couple of seasons that seems to have been lost.  We used to periodically see them in scrubs or their police uniforms or some other work clothes or something that gave us shorthand for what they had been doing when they died.  Remember the walkers in riot gear at the prison?  The guy in the FEMA jacket at the overrun high school chasing Shane and Otis?  I liked those small details because they did tell us something about who the person had once been and that they had had the bad luck to have more or less died at their freaking jobs.   Now they're all bundled in what looks like 17 layers of ratty grayed out clothing (which I get is probably easier for makeup reasons) in the Georgia heat and the focus is all in the various stages of grossness and falling apart, which makes it all the harder to remember that they were ever actually people.

[AngelaHunter]

Morgan will fail to redeem the Wolf? With equally dire consequences.

 

Can we start calling them "Dire Wolves" then?

[Save Yourself]

Not to get overly practical, but I live In Georgia. Digging holes that large just isn't easy. Not at all. It's hard compacted clay, with plenty of rocks (and NOT small ones) and roots from trees. So, if you want to dig a hole, plan on about 3-4 hours with about 3-4 hardy people, with shovels and picks. But, I realize, this is TV.

Oh I'm all about the practical :) I was thrilled to see Rick looting the bodies, I hope they have always been doing that. Practical, practical, practical!

ETA: OMG, they are wasting 16 hours of manpower on every single grave?! They truly are crazy.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Save Yourself

[nodorothyparker]

Not to get overly practical, but I live In Georgia. Digging holes that large just isn't easy. Not at all. It's hard compacted clay, with plenty of rocks (and NOT small ones) and roots from trees. So, if you want to dig a hole, plan on about 3-4 hours with about 3-4 hardy people, with shovels and picks. But, I realize, this is TV.

 

One of the few thoughts I did have about this episode was about the quiet loveliness in the burying the walkers and treating them like the people they had been, but crap, you guys are right.  I've thankfully never had to bury anything bigger than a medium-sized family dog or cat and that was still a job that made me want to pony up the cash to pay for cremation.  Multiple by that by however many walkers Eastman was burying at a time and my back hurts just thinking about it.

 

And oh hell, when Tyreese died they'd been reduced to eating worms and the random Fido they could take down.  Sorry, Sasha.  I'm sure Tyreese being the big softie that he was wouldn't have minded being left to the elements or a do it yourself home cremation.

 

Save a seat on the practical sociopath bus for me. 

[Disraeli Ears]

You gave me an idea for a truly morbid show: TWD does to Disney World and they run into all the characters, like Snow White and Mickey, but they are all WALKERS!!!!  Cool, huh? Think we can get Disney to play along?

 

I remember back when Disney bought ABC and they basically forced a bunch of their sitcoms to do Disney tie-in shows. I particularly remember the two-parter of Roseanne (who apparently hated the fact that they had to do so) in which the Connor family went to DisneyWorld. It was so ridiculous.

 

So I guess if Disney buys AMC, this could happen.

[BetyBee]

I can't get the Wolf's threat about how he would kill kids out of my head.  If he kills Judith, I will take a stick to Morgan myself!  We've been mostly spared the deaths of children on this show and I do not want them to go there.  The fact that it would be easier than filming a toddler in the ZA worries me no end.  

[SevenStars]

Or least eaten it himself. He forces the kids to give up their meager food and then just leaves it there, but won't kill the wolf who threatens to murder children. Nice.

Did he force them to give him the food? I rewind but couldn't hear exectly what he said to them. But since they said thanks to him, I assume the food and bullet was their way of saying thanks to him for killing that walker coming behind them without them knowing it.

Edited November 4, 2015 by SevenStars

[morgankobi]

So I guess if Disney buys AMC, this could happen.

I feel like it's a matter of "when," not "if," these days. 

[Dobian]

I've said before that without hope no one would want to survive the apocalypse. Right now there is no hope motivating these characters.

 

The problem is that the comics continue ad nauseum, which is okay for things like Batman and Superman where you have a sustainable world that continues indefinitely, but the world of the Walking Dead is finite.  Either the apoclaypse ends and people survive, or everyone dies and the human race becomes extinct.  This show has to address this at some point.  Walkers can't walk forever.  If you want to be real about it, your average walker shouldn't be able to walk for more than a couple of days before falling apart.  There really should be very few walkers left at this point in the show's timeline.

[truelovekiss]

The problem is that the comics continue ad nauseum, which is okay for things like Batman and Superman where you have a sustainable world that continues indefinitely, but the world of the Walking Dead is finite.  Either the apoclaypse ends and people survive, or everyone dies and the human race becomes extinct.  This show has to address this at some point.  Walkers can't walk forever.  If you want to be real about it, your average walker shouldn't be able to walk for more than a couple of days before falling apart.  There really should be very few walkers left at this point in the show's timeline.

I've thought about this too. Not just in terms of how long the walkers should be able to walk, but the quantity of them.

 

Forgive me for being a nerd, but I love math.  As of 2008,  there were 528.7 million people in North America.  (I'm just going to go with all of North America, because the Canadian and Mexican borders probably don't matter much to walkers.)  If we assume that 1% of the population survived the initial apocalypse, that is roughly 5,300,000 people.  If you take 530 million and subtract 5.3 million, and divide the answer by 5.3 million, that comes to each surviving person being responsible for killing 99 walkers each, which I think could probably be done within a month for CDB when they were out on the road.  Of course the living come back as we know, but compared to the massive amount of walkers, that really doesn't amount to much.  

[AngelaHunter]

But since they said thanks to him, I assume the food and bullet was their way of saying thanks to him for killing that walker coming behind them without them knowing it.

 

You could be right. I probably shouldn't comment much, since by this point in the show I was so bored and frustrated I wasn't really paying attention and didn't even recognize the doomed Fruit People.

[rab01]

I've thought about this too. Not just in terms of how long the walkers should be able to walk, but the quantity of them.

 

Forgive me for being a nerd, but I love math.  As of 2008,  there were 528.7 million people in North America.  (I'm just going to go with all of North America, because the Canadian and Mexican borders probably don't matter much to walkers.)  If we assume that 1% of the population survived the initial apocalypse, that is roughly 5,300,000 people.  If you take 530 million and subtract 5.3 million, and divide the answer by 5.3 million, that comes to each surviving person being responsible for killing 99 walkers each, which I think could probably be done within a month for CDB when they were out on the road.  Of course the living come back as we know, but compared to the massive amount of walkers, that really doesn't amount to much.  

It's an interesting question (you might like the zombie guts thread where that and similar questions have been kicked around) but what if the number of initial survivors is much lower than 1%? If you only had somewhere under a few hundred thousand humans who survived the first 3 months of the ZA, What would your numbers look like?

[HalcyonDays]

I've thought about this too. Not just in terms of how long the walkers should be able to walk, but the quantity of them.

 

Forgive me for being a nerd, but I love math.  As of 2008,  there were 528.7 million people in North America.  (I'm just going to go with all of North America, because the Canadian and Mexican borders probably don't matter much to walkers.)  If we assume that 1% of the population survived the initial apocalypse, that is roughly 5,300,000 people.  If you take 530 million and subtract 5.3 million, and divide the answer by 5.3 million, that comes to each surviving person being responsible for killing 99 walkers each, which I think could probably be done within a month for CDB when they were out on the road.  Of course the living come back as we know, but compared to the massive amount of walkers, that really doesn't amount to much.  

 

This is an excellent post and such interesting statistics. Here's the thread rab01 mentioned - Gruesome, Gory and Grabby - to further discuss the Walkers.