S02.E05: 205

[Boundary]

I don't know why Descent, a.k.a the world's longest Penthouse letter, would be particularly successful, but as you point out, all kinds of crap sells.  That said, I can't imagine Noah would get such a large advance for such hack work, nor can I imagine that a publisher or agent with literary pretensions would care about it.

 

That's exactly my point. There were a few gaps in this episode but Noah writing a cheap summer read doesn't jive with his character. The agent wanted to add a murder to spice it up but Noah thought it was profound enough without it. Yvonne also doesn't strike me as the type to mentor such work. The common assumption here seems to be that since Yvonne and Robert started out as an affair themselves, maybe this book struck a raw nerve. That's probably true but I think there is a bit more to it than simply Alison being a sex siren. Maybe Yvonne was affected by Whitney's visit, a more plausible explanation to me especially if it reminded Yvonne of her own earlier years of marriage to Robert.

 

 

I don't know that Miss Ecuador is any more low maintenance than Alison.  First of all, she's already sexually involved with Scotty.  Scotty specifically told Cole to stay away, and from what we've seen of Cole, his family is everything.  It's also going to be a trifle difficult to legally marry an undocumented. 

...

 

I agree that Cole initiated the sex, and I'm surprised (but not really) that people are seeing Alison as the predator who swooped in and forced poor old Cole to service her, all to lure him back into her parlor  ... Cole had no need to awaken her.

 

 

Kinda agree a lot with you there. Like all the other lead characters, I think Cole's mistakes need to be scrutinized as well. Last week, Helen drove while high and had a few mishaps, which we all harped about. But I think Cole's chronic habit of drink and driving is even more reckless, not least because he seems to be habitually doing it and risking his passengers' lives every time. Then he goes on to try to steal his brother's girl even after being warned off her. And, the sex with Alison, even though it was inevitable, if he was less selfish he would have allowed her to sleep off whatever had brought her back. Of course Alison bares some responsibility as well, she slept with Oscar when Noah hurt her last season. A pattern emerging maybe?

 

BTW, where the heck was Noah? Helen had sorted out her problems and returned home. I doubt she'd been that relaxed if Martin was still sick. So why was he not available? Alison had time to freak out in the lakehouse, travel to Helen's, then on to Montauk. That should be a huge chunk of the whole day. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by Boundary

[Muffyn]

I consider Alison a person who does not know how to express affection or to ask for care without it being sexual.  She may only want someone to listen to her or spend time with her, but her only sense of self-worth seems to be as a sexual being.  So, she is hurting badly and she goes home.  She cannot simply ask Cole to talk to her as a friend or to hold her because she is hurting so badly.  Instead she agrees to sex with him.  While we know she spent a good amount of time saying “no” to Oscar, even though she eventually had sex with him, that was a situation that would have easily been exposed and Oscar is about as unappealing as a person can be.  And of course we are supposed to believe she and Noah have the greatest couple chemistry ever so she could not resist him.

[Sheenieb]

 

What she did to pore Cole was unforgivable. He's vulnerable and lonely and she thinks having sex with him is just okey dokey, never mind she is CHEATING on her current love of her life. But all that is no matter to poor Alison, she can't think five minutes in front of her own face.

But Cole is an adult who made the choice to sleep with her.  It was a bad idea all around, unless they're both in agreement that it was closure sex.

 

I refuse to treat grown ass men as if they're children. I don't care what stories Alison was telling or how she was dressed.  If Robert can't control himself around her, that's his problem.

 

I don't recall Alison wearing business casual attire while at Yvonne's. To me, Yvonne was nitpicking everything Alison did because she was in her feelings about the book and she felt threatened. "I don't like your characterization" isn't going to fly as an excuse to terminate, so she had to come up with other things to get rid of her.

 

That being said, Alison needs to get her life.  She is too passive. Besides the obvious need of therapy, perhaps going back to work in the medical field would give her the purpose she's craving.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Sheenieb

[racked]

I think we are supposed to see Noah's book as more Henry Miller than EL James? I also think Yvonne's coldness towards Allison was probably not solely based on the book. It's Allison's memory and she was having epiphanies about how Noah sees her and she projected that onto the rest of the world too but I don't know that that's accurate.

[RedInk]

I agree that Cole initiated the sex, and I'm surprised (but not really) that people are seeing Alison as the predator who swooped in and forced poor old Cole to service her, all to lure him back into her parlor.  I see Alison as reeling at this time.  She's fired, basically evicted from the cabin, cannot reach the person she's supposed to be closest to (and he seems to be making little attempt to answer her desperate messages), and she's in free fall.  I imagine she's questioning everything at this moment.  If she had reached Noah in a short amount of time, I imagine the disaster would have been more controlled.  Then Helen confirms what she fears may be true.  As someone here suggested, I think she ran back to where she felt safe and where she belongs.  

 

I don't think she was predatory or consciously hurting anyone; I think it was just evidence that she’s emotionally stunted and too egocentric to see how her choices impact herself and everyone else.  She’s a bundle of needs and relies on other people to meet them rather than taking anything on herself. She’s in a bad situation, for sure, but here are some substantial assets she has (that many other people in her situation do not): a nursing degree, beachfront property worth millions of dollars, a friend who has previously provided support and a place to live. She can actually support herself and build a new life anywhere she chooses, with or without Noah, but I think given 9 good choices and 1 bad one, Allison would choose the latter every time. Returning home where her lovesick husband is, and sleeping with him for comfort is understandable, sure, but it's another bad choice that creates more problems for both of them. I don't know, she really hits a nerve for me. I want to shake her and tell her to stop leaving her fate in other people's hands. Oh, and to consider other people every once in a while. 

[grumpypanda]

But Cole is an adult who made the choice to sleep with her. It was a bad idea all around, unless they're both in agreement that it was closure sex.

I refuse to treat grown ass men as if they're children. I don't care what stories Alison was telling or how she was dressed. If Robert can't control himself around her, that's his problem.

Yes, ultimately Cole is responsible for his own decisions but that doesn't make Alison any less of an asshole for toying with his emotions. She knows how much she hurt him but she doesn't give a shit because it's all about her. I wish he wouldn't have gotten sucked back into her bullshit but I understand why both of them are drawn to each other.

Robert and Alison were both inappropriate and creepy during the physical therapy scene. Who talks to their boss's husband like that anyway? I don't think that her outfit was sexy at all but she crossed a line with the sexy talk. Robert is a creepy pervert but Alison is a weirdo too. She has no boundaries and zero self awareness.

Edited November 3, 2015 by grumpypanda

[Tikichick]

I almost didn't stick with the show after the break between the seasons.   I just didn't find Noah and Allison compelling enough to stick with.  I've enjoyed the other POV perspectives this season and now the episodes have really been holding my attention.  I've been mostly marginally interested at best in who killed Scott Lockhart and felt that part of the story wasn't going to be particularly interesting.  This week's episode changed that for me.  My suggestion isn't one I've seen mentioned elsewhere so I don't want to put it in this thread in case it's anywhere near correct and it would annoy people who would prefer not to have clues pointed out.  I did put it in the speculation thread if anyone is interested in the idea.

[KLeewrite]

 I agree that Allison's remarks to Robert were inappropriate, but notice not what she was saying, but the way she was saying it -- in a rush, as if she'd been holding it in for a long time. Because I think she had been. This is not something she can talk about with other people because she will almost invariably meet with disapproval. But the way I see it, she finds out that Robert and Yvonne's marriage resulted from an extramarital affair and she feels she has finally found somebody who understands. In her mind, she doesn't have to make up stories and put on an act anymore because Robert has been there and he gets it, and so she can finally be open and honest with someone in a way that she can't with anyone else, not even with Noah. Allison looks on Robert as someone who won't judge her, and so it never occurs to her that, in this context, what she's saying is inappropriate.

 

In fact, I think the fact that Robert evicted her hurts her more than almost anything else, because she thought she found something like a kindred spirit, only to have him abandon her as well.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Just have to add - my husband is a dead-ringer for Joshua Jackson, people come up to him all the time to let him know.  I don't think anyone actually thinks he IS him, but just to say, "wow, you look just like PACEY!" 

 

it is so weird to watch the Cole scenes.

 

 

Wow, lucky you.  Or maybe not.  You could play Helen & get yourself white streaks & scream at your TV that Allison is a waitress slut.  No, wait, or is that Whitney?  No, don't be Whitney, then you'd have to puke your guts out, throw tantrums over nothing & wanna bang Scotty.  Ew.  How confusing.  I still say, lucky you.

[neece26]

 

I consider Alison a person who does not know how to express affection or to ask for care without it being sexual.  She may only want someone to listen to her or spend time with her, but her only sense of self-worth seems to be as a sexual being.  So, she is hurting badly and she goes home.  She cannot simply ask Cole to talk to her as a friend or to hold her because she is

 

Exactly!  After her speech about not being valued as anything beyond a sexual object, she goes right into sex again.  That was really screwed up.  

 

Also, just because they are physically separated, Noah can't pick up a phone every day to chat for 5 minutes or just to say hello?  Or at least return her desperate calls to him?   Six weeks is a long time to not call someone you are supposedly madly in love with.

[lovinbob]

The Cole-Allison encounter made me sad. Cole's perception of it was so rosy and so sweet (if painful), with Alison asking him to stay with her in bed. It was more like wishful thinking, like a daydream of what he wished might happen, than an actual memory. It's hard because it makes me want to romanticize Cole even though I know at least some of what has *actually* taken place and how erratic and possibly dangerous he has been. With that said, though—if Alison went to the house, how scared of him could she actually be? If she really needed just any place to go she could have gone to her waitress friend's house, or to her folk singer friend's.

 

I did think it was interesting that Alison specifically said it had been six weeks since she'd seen Noah. Definitely seems like they're teeing up a baby-daddy situation.

 

I was thrilled not to see Noah.

[SlackerInc]

I agree it's up to him to control his own reaction.  He's not a 14 year old with insta-erections.  She was massaging just above his knee, not his groin.  He did mention that Yvonne had read him parts of Noah's book in bed.  I think the implication was she had read the sex scenes.  By his sharing that and then drawing Alison's eyes toward his erection, he was looking for a reaction from her and maybe hoping for a happy ending. 

 

He could have maybe done a better job of hiding it and not calling attention to it, for sure.  But if you're saying he should have just mentally commanded his penis to stay flaccid, that's not how it works.  Well, I don't yet have the experience of being Robert's age; but I'm past forty and it still doesn't work that way for me.

 

Another thing I was wondering, did the annoying rich housewife pay Cole to have sex with her? Because he really didn't seem into it even before the sex; in fact his demeanor as he was driving up to the house and talking to Luisa made it look like he was on his way to a job he didn't particularly want to do. Or was she a drug client and he didn't want to risk losing her business if he turned her down (I've lived on Long Island, and it's common knowledge that the rich types who live there do A LOT of cocaine)?

 

Yeah, that was weird.  I thought maybe he was her gigolo or something, but then later it didn't so much seem like it.  I don't know why he tolerated her otherwise.

 

Also, just because they are physically separated, Noah can't pick up a phone every day to chat for 5 minutes or just to say hello?  Or at least return her desperate calls to him?   Six weeks is a long time to not call someone you are supposedly madly in love with.

 

I did not catch this six weeks reference (but two people commented on it, so it must have been there).  However, I really doubt she meant she hadn't even talked to him for that long.  That just doesn't seem possible.

[jrlr]

Was there a reason given that Alison and Noah haven't seen each other for six weeks?  Where the hell is he supposed to be, on vacation?

[Janc]

The Cole-Allison encounter made me sad. Cole's perception of it was so rosy and so sweet (if painful), with Alison asking him to stay with her in bed. It was more like wishful thinking, like a daydream of what he wished might happen, than an actual memory. It's hard because it makes me want to romanticize Cole even though I know at least some of what has *actually* taken place and how erratic and possibly dangerous he has been. With that said, though—if Alison went to the house, how scared of him could she actually be? If she really needed just any place to go she could have gone to her waitress friend's house, or to her folk singer friend's.

 

I did think it was interesting that Alison specifically said it had been six weeks since she'd seen Noah. Definitely seems like they're teeing up a baby-daddy situation.

 

I was thrilled not to see Noah.

Six weeks?!?  I missed that... I'd like to go back and hear it, did she mention that in one of her voice mails she left?

[racked]

The six week reference was in the previews wasn't it? I assumed there was a bit of a time jump before the next episode.

[SlackerInc]

Ohhh...I avoid previews like the plague.

[lovinbob]

Six weeks?!?  I missed that... I'd like to go back and hear it, did she mention that in one of her voice mails she left?

my memory is that it was when she was calling him, before she went to Brooklyn and knocked on Helen's door.

[MaggieG]

If I remember she said six weeks in the preview for next week, not in this actual episode. In the preview for next week Noah says something along the lines of "my marriage is officially over" or "I am officially divorced" and she asks "are we still a couple, it's been six weeks since I've seen you."

Did anyone else think Max when Scotty mentioned to Cole he has a hedge fund guy? Wouldn't that be hilarious

[Milburn Stone]

Ohhh...I avoid previews like the plague.

 

Me too. If they are playing beyond my control in the same room I'm in, I cover my eyes and ears and go "Nah nah nah nah."

 

If God meant us to see what happens next week, it would be next week already.

[HumblePi]

Was there a reason given that Alison and Noah haven't seen each other for six weeks?  Where the hell is he supposed to be, on vacation?

It's only my guess but it could be that Noah is on the 'low-down' directive from his lawyer to stay away from the concubine while custody hearings are proceeding. It doesn't look like a good arrangement to have him shacking up with his mistress and trying to get custody of the kids at the same time. Alison wasn't dressed in any sexual way. She said it's 90 degrees outside and knowing how sticky and humid the weather is in New England during the summer, I think that her shorts and sleeveless shirt were very appropriate.

 

Poor Alison, she's feeling like she's in limbo. She's been deserted by Noah in Cold Spring because Helen doesn't want her near the kids, Yvonne is being a bitch to he because she's a woman and she's a threat to Yvonne and Robert is being just plain creepy. I think she thought she had a 'friend of sorts' in Robert until he got that erection. I got the impression that Robert's sudden blood rush wasn't simply because he was attracted to Alison sexually but turned on by the way she described the attraction she had with Noah when they started their affair. I think he was simply re-living that feeling since he and Yvonne started their affair basically in the same way. It was a raw, sexual attraction and I just think it stirred him to re-live that emotion through Alison's description. She's not wanted there at the cabin in Cold Spring which btw resembles her little Montaug house quite a lot. When she asked Noah what's the worse thing he's ever done, he tells her 'this' meaning his affair with her. Nice way to bolster Alison's self-esteem buddy.

 

I do hope that in the end it will be revealed that Alison's baby is Cole's and not Noah's. Noah has his hands full with his own four kids and Alison and Cole having a new baby together would certainly help heal the pain of losing their only son. I think Alison and Cole were meant to be together in the end. Noah wanted the excitement of an affair, Alison wanted love and a good marriage.

 

Just a postscript, did anyone else feel a little 'skeeved' out by the anorexic naked married rich blonde? I think Cole could do much better than that if all he wants is to get laid. She wasn't attractive at all and seeing her full-on naked would have turned me right off if I was a male.

Edited November 5, 2015 by HumblePi

[Constantinople]

At the end of the episode, the detective was talking to Noah's criminal lawyer / Helen's divorce lawyer at Lockhart's Lobster Roll, then the detective left and Oscar starting chatting with the lawyer.

 

None of the POV characters -- Noah, Alison, Helen or Cole -- were present.

 

So from whose perspective did those scenes take place?  Or were were they supposed to be the objective truth?

[briochetwist]

 

I did not catch this six weeks reference (but two people commented on it, so it must have been there).  However, I really doubt she meant she hadn't even talked to him for that long.  That just doesn't seem possible.

I didn't catch the six weeks reference either, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong, it makes absolutely no sense.   Are we really supposed to believe that it took Yvonne six weeks to start reading Noah's book, the book she 'devoured' according to her husband.  Not likely.  

[GeminiDancer]

 

Alison wasn't dressed in any sexual way. She said it's 90 degrees outside and knowing how sticky and humid the weather is in New England during the summer, I think that her shorts and sleeveless shirt were very appropriate.

 

They're in upstate New York, not New England. That being said, there's nothing wrong with her clothing, but she's at work. Heck, she could have worn the outfit she did when she saw Helen and be fine. Cutoffs, a cut up top and exposed bra is unprofessional.

At the end of the episode, the detective was talking to Noah's criminal lawyer / Helen's divorce lawyer at Lockhart's Lobster Roll, then the detective left and Oscar starting chatting with the lawyer.

 

None of the POV characters -- Noah, Alison, Helen or Cole -- were present.

 

So from whose perspective did those scenes take place?  Or were were they supposed to be the objective truth?

 

Those scenes are the objective truth. That's what's happening in the present.

[JenE4]

I also didn't hear 6 weeks, but I didn't see the preview. Helen would have gotten her hair fixed within 6 weeks' time. I presumed this was all within 2-3 days of Noah leaving to pick up the kids when Helen was arrested, but apparently enough time for Helen to be back home with the kids (we heard them inside), so where was Noah if he wasn't with his kids? Guess we'll find out next week...or not...who knows with this show!

[blixie]

 

Did anyone else think Max when Scotty mentioned to Cole he has a hedge fund guy?

 

Absolutely, and someone said Max was thinking of purchasing property in Montauk, I could easily see him being in the thick of whatever happens at the wedding/in Montauk. 

[beaker73]

At the end of the episode, the detective was talking to Noah's criminal lawyer / Helen's divorce lawyer at Lockhart's Lobster Roll, then the detective left and Oscar starting chatting with the lawyer.

 

None of the POV characters -- Noah, Alison, Helen or Cole -- were present.

 

So from whose perspective did those scenes take place?  Or were were they supposed to be the objective truth?

All the scenes with the detective, lawyer, etc. are from no one's POV in particular.  They just are.

 

I didn't catch the six weeks reference either, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong, it makes absolutely no sense.   Are we really supposed to believe that it took Yvonne six weeks to start reading Noah's book, the book she 'devoured' according to her husband.  Not likely.  

It was in the previews for next week--not in the actual episode itself.

[Boundary]

At the end of the episode, the detective was talking to Noah's criminal lawyer / Helen's divorce lawyer at Lockhart's Lobster Roll, then the detective left and Oscar starting chatting with the lawyer.

 

None of the POV characters -- Noah, Alison, Helen or Cole -- were present.

 

So from whose perspective did those scenes take place?  Or were were they supposed to be the objective truth?

 

That question popped up last season as well. Personally, I think the detective has his POV. Objective truth in this show might be a faux pas. Perhaps.

[Artsda]

So Alison was upset people viewed her a slut/sex thing, and her idea for that was to sleep with Cole while engaged to Noah? Could the child in the future be Coles? The baby did instantly like him while Alison said she didn't take to strangers. 

 

Liked seeing Helen's damaged hair. 

[Ellaria]

That question popped up last season as well. Personally, I think the detective has his POV. Objective truth in this show might be a faux pas. Perhaps.

 

Can't be...the detective had already left the diner when Oscar handed "something" to Noah's lawyer.

[JenE4]

Can't be...the detective had already left the diner when Oscar handed "something" to Noah's lawyer.

I agree. It's not Part 3: Det. Jeffries, and he isn't always there, for example, the court scene in a different episode. I think the parts 1 and 2 are memories that are jaded by perspective. But the current investigation is in "real time" as an objective narration that we can take at face value as the only objective truth we're seeing.

[Ellaria]

But the current investigation is in "real time" as an objective narration that we can take at face value as the only objective truth we're seeing.

 

I agree. Until we are led to believe otherwise, I think that it is the objective truth. And if so, it just got more complicated.

 

Last season, we saw a number of scenes of Det. Jeffries investigating the crime (at The End, at Scotty's memorial, etc.)...all scenes without him interacting with any of our main characters. We saw these things at the same time that Det. Jeffries did. But now we have a "clue" that Det. Jeffries does not have: whatever it was that Oscar handed Noah's attorney. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by Ellaria Sand

[bunnywithanaxe]

I guess I'm the only one who thought that Allison--queen of self-victimization--thought that she was fired over the book and the nurse sexytimes thing, but she was really fired because she was completely unprofessional and not adept at her job. Yes, maybe Yvonne thought her outfit was too revealing, but no one wears shorts and a tank top to "the office," and even though it was just their son coming to visit, she needs to represent herself as a professional employee. Even in Allison's memory she was frazzled and unprepared; Yvonne had to give her a pen and tell her where the paper was. For lunch she left the rest of the menu up to Allison but only has one request--the hot dogs--and Allison forgot them. Also when Yvonne was telling her everything she needed her to do with lunch and mailing the manuscript, Allison asked about Robert's therapy. Yvonne seemed offput--you work for ME, not him, now go do what I told you. Also we know this is how Yvonne operates with her protégés. She brings in a new fabulous writer every year and presumably has to toss the last guy out to do so. We also know her last assistant wasn't up to par either and that's why she fired him. So if Yvonne hears about some fabulous young writer who's really interested in learning about the publishing industry from her as opposed to this mess of an asst she was doing a favor for, of course she's going to fire Allison. I also bet Robert is tasked with kicking out the last guy to make room for the new one time and time again.

As for all of the soul mate and love talk about Allison and Noah, I've never seen the love and understanding that she and Cole had just in that one scene. Ok, maybe it's because Joshua Jackson really emoted the hell out of it, but I believed that even Allison felt that, yes, Cole is the only one who really sees ME. That being said, for someone who doesn't want to be seen as a sex object I don't really understand why her answer to that is having sex. On the one hand, I think she "made love" with Cole unlike the sex she has with Noah. But on the other hand, she did the exact same thing last season with fucking Oscar (ew!). She gets in a tiff with Noah without Noah even realizing Allison is upset with him. (With Oscar she was upset that Noah said they couldn't live together right away and the apartment was for her.) And instead of talking to Noah about her feelings, she goes and screws someone else. Hell, she cheated on Cole for the same reason, too, and his "crime" was just reminding her of Gabriel. For someone who doesn't want to be seen as living sex or whatever Noah said, that seems to be her go-to defense mechanism.

No, two post above this one I said the same thing. :D Allison reframed Yvonne's valid concerns about her performance level as sexual jealousy. (and I agree about how Yvonne reacted to her expectation to help Robert, too. It was a great moment for both actresses-- you could see " wtf, whose PA are you?" on Yvonne's face and " why are you keeping me away from Robert, you jealous witch?" on Allison's.)

I think she thinks sex is the only thing she as to get approval/ affection/ whatever . On some level she hates this, but on another this doesn't stop her from using it to get the attention she wants.

[right]

I really did enjoy Helen giving Allison the verbal beat down outside her home.  However, I don't think Helen's description of the future Noah is really any different than any of us can expect in a relationship.  Every relationship has the "honeymoon" phase where people are on their best behavior.  But, sooner or later things change and we start commenting on those pet peeves that annoy the shit out of us.  Also, Helen breaking down and crying kind of contradicts her negative take on Noah.  If she really felt he was a huge burden that only blamed her for all of his failures, she should be laughing that Allison has taken the asshole of her hands.  When you really love someone you even love their shitty sides.

[SlackerInc]

They're in upstate New York, not New England.

If that's actually considered upstate New York, I find that kind of hilarious. To me, upstate New York would be up in Buffalo and Albany and so on. They are only 60 miles from Manhattan!

[Nanrad]

Kinda agree a lot with you there. Like all the other lead characters, I think Cole's mistakes need to be scrutinized as well. Last week, Helen drove while high and had a few mishaps, which we all harped about. But I think Cole's chronic habit of drink and driving is even more reckless, not least because he seems to be habitually doing it and risking his passengers' lives every time. Then he goes on to try to steal his brother's girl even after being warned off her. And, the sex with Alison, even though it was inevitable, if he was less selfish he would have allowed her to sleep off whatever had brought her back. Of course Alison bares some responsibility as well, she slept with Oscar when Noah hurt her last season. A pattern emerging maybe?

Luisa isn't Scotty's girl, she's someone he's having sex with. She said that during the taxi ride and I think he pressured into having sex, which is why they were discussing filing a lawsuit because Scotty's her boss. Scotty has no ownership over Luisa and Cole doesn't feel any loyalty to his brother who has constantly tried to pressure him into selling his home, despite being told no. Even sent a realtor to look at this house without Cole's permission. Tries to guilt trip him about taking care of their family, and then lied about not having a job. What obligation does Cole have to be considerate of a person who has constantly lied to his face, undermined him, and is sexually harassing his employees???

 

Now, I do agree that Cole's drinking and driving is reckless.

 

Cole is pretty selfless, tbh (regarding the divorce separation). He refuses to sell the house because he says it's Alison's, he's stayed away after that first visit, he didn't put up a fight about her sleeping on the bed. He is basically being considerate of her wants and needs. But, just like Alison, he's broken and I'd argue even more so. He lost his kid and his wife not only cheated on his, but left as well. He is also vulnerable. I don't see him as being selfish.

 

But Cole is an adult who made the choice to sleep with her.  It was a bad idea all around, unless they're both in agreement that it was closure sex.

 

I refuse to treat grown ass men as if they're children. I don't care what stories Alison was telling or how she was dressed.  If Robert can't control himself around her, that's his problem.

 

I don't recall Alison wearing business casual attire while at Yvonne's. To me, Yvonne was nitpicking everything Alison did because she was in her feelings about the book and she felt threatened. "I don't like your characterization" isn't going to fly as an excuse to terminate, so she had to come up with other things to get rid of her.

TBH, I think it's more complicated than that. I don't think Alison was necessarily "bad" for going to the house, but I do believe she was behaving selfishly considering the hell she put him through when she left. When a person is vulnerable and devastated, they act more on emotion than logic. Cole didn't plan to sleep with her, but he missed her and wanted to be with her in that moment. I sympathize with him because of all he's been through. I had the same reaction when the situation was flipped in another show. You cannot leave your spouse, especially for another person and leave them devastated, and then sleep with them because she had a shitty day/moment. At the end, you are going to go back to that other person all while they still had to deal with your departure. This happened in both shows and is shitty either way.

 

It's Alison's POV, that may not entirely be accurate. At the same time, picky or not, Yvonne is not only high maintenance, she's an important editor, and made a valid point about Alison's attire and work ethic. Alison doesn't know where the pen and paper is, she doesn't remember to get the one thing that was specially asked for, she comes to work late and literally lives in the backyard. 

 

 I agree that Allison's remarks to Robert were inappropriate, but notice not what she was saying, but the way she was saying it -- in a rush, as if she'd been holding it in for a long time. Because I think she had been. This is not something she can talk about with other people because she will almost invariably meet with disapproval. But the way I see it, she finds out that Robert and Yvonne's marriage resulted from an extramarital affair and she feels she has finally found somebody who understands. In her mind, she doesn't have to make up stories and put on an act anymore because Robert has been there and he gets it, and so she can finally be open and honest with someone in a way that she can't with anyone else, not even with Noah. Allison looks on Robert as someone who won't judge her, and so it never occurs to her that, in this context, what she's saying is inappropriate.

 

In fact, I think the fact that Robert evicted her hurts her more than almost anything else, because she thought she found something like a kindred spirit, only to have him abandon her as well.

I kind of feel sad for Alison as well, BUT timing is everything. If she'd told Robert that in the woods, I'd agree. But, rubbing on his thigh and talking about sex and getting naked. No bueno. I still stick by the point that that massage looked a little to sensuous, IMHO. I've been to PT and have had massages--none of mine were like that, but maybe that's just me.

[Nanrad]

I really did enjoy Helen giving Allison the verbal beat down outside her home.  However, I don't think Helen's description of the future Noah is really any different than any of us can expect in a relationship.  Every relationship has the "honeymoon" phase where people are on their best behavior.  But, sooner or later things change and we start commenting on those pet peeves that annoy the shit out of us.  Also, Helen breaking down and crying kind of contradicts her negative take on Noah.  If she really felt he was a huge burden that only blamed her for all of his failures, she should be laughing that Allison has taken the asshole of her hands.  When you really love someone you even love their shitty sides.

I disagree.

 

Couples have arguments and sometimes blame one another for petty shit, but someone blaming all of their shit on you isn't normal behavior. That's actually toxic and could definitely be a contributing factor to divorce in some people's cases. After the honeymoon is over, you see a person's real side, but it's really supposed to be a balance not flat out dumping all you shit on your S/O and having them tolerate it. I'd never tolerate that.

 

I don't think Helen's crying contradicts what she says, I think it shows that, despite his shitty behavior, she loved him. That she is heartbroken with the dissolution of their marriage even though he was a jackass.

[stillshimpy]

Personally, I think Yvonne fired Alison because of job performance issues. However, we have a lot of reasons to believe that Alison has abandonment issue -- apparently her mother ran off trying to find herself while Alison was raised by her grandparents -- that results in abandonment issues, questioning of worth, etc.

So I think Alison does have a poor self-image and finds rejection of any kind very difficult to take and triggering. I think we also have substantial evidence that when she is triggered, afraid she is being left or rejected, she uses sex as a form of self-validation. To help her feel lovable and like someone who will not be left.

Gabriel dying probably felt a lot like being abandoned again. When Alison went back to Montauk and slept with Oscar, it really did seem to be about needing that affirmation, that validation. If she can't have love and security, then at least sex is a decent enough proxy for it in her mind.

But because her issues really are the stuff formed in childhood, they feel like they are coming from a very easily wounded, vulnerable place. It took me until this episode to figure out that was what was likely going on: hence the disparity in how Alison sees herself and how men see her. Plus, more than a little bit of Men: Do they process women sexually first and foremost, seems to be part of the commentary in this story also.

Just the fear of abandonment was obvious when she showed up with the six pack of beer last week and then again here, where she goes to Helen's -- probably one of the least appropriate places for her to go -- but Alison has her own issues, outside of Gabriel's death.

 

I thought that this was an excellent "Alison Episode." I'm always torn in my reaction to her. Sometimes I loathe her (usually in Noah's telling). And other times, I feel terribly sorry for her. I understand that the narrative is manipulating my viewpoint but, for the most part, I see her as vulnerable, confused and naive. Her lack of a "sense of boundaries or propriety" surprises me. There are so many conflicting parts of her personality. As this show moves along, I just want to know more about her. And yet, I could never be her friend.

Alison is the character I am most torn on also. I frequently find her sympathetic and knowing some of the things that went into forming her makes me have a lot of compassion for her. That said, poor woman has a lot of trouble making emotionally healthy choices.

I don't personally take any issue with Cole getting half the money from the sale of the house Alison inherited while married to him. She expected some of the proceeds from his ancestral home. It's only fair (and legal) that it is an equitable spilt regardless of which person's home is being sold. Community property and all that. I think Helen's townhome is excepted from that because it was bought with her trust. There are certain things that are exempted from marital assets.

I also don't think it would be somehow wrong if Alison's income from the proceeds of the house are what are helping to support her life with Noah. Gender equality works that way. If it's okay for Noah to support them, then it's equally okay for Alison, or some combination of the two.

I will say I was disappointed in the resolution with Robert's character. I honestly don't recall anything about Alison's father, but I do think she was relating to him as someone that she was desexualizing in her own mind, like a friend or confidant who was substantially older. It was a mortifying scene, but I thought that Alison -- while demonstrating unprofessional boundaries -- simply thought of them as friends.

However, being Yvonne's assistant would be a serious opportunity for someone, and they hired Alison in what I thought was a temporary capacity to fill-in. Then it just wasn't a field that she was particularly skilled in, and she kept trying to drift back towards the medical side, and it just got ugly.

But I don't think Alison was fired because Yvonne felt threatened by Alison, she just wasn't filling the actual position that Yvonne needed filled. I felt sorry for Alison, but she does have poor boundaries and a trouble self-image. One of the most interesting things about this story is how often people see themselves, in their own memories, in ways that seem to reflect their self image.

Also, I completely thought weird Discreet Landscape Architecture woman was Cole's own sad, desperate attempt to move on. Kind of like Alison and Oscar last season.

Edited November 4, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Sheenieb]

 

TBH, I think it's more complicated than that. I don't think Alison was necessarily "bad" for going to the house, but I do believe she was behaving selfishly considering the hell she put him through when she left. When a person is vulnerable and devastated, they act more on emotion than logic. Cole didn't plan to sleep with her, but he missed her and wanted to be with her in that moment. I sympathize with him because of all he's been through. I had the same reaction when the situation was flipped in another show. You cannot leave your spouse, especially for another person and leave them devastated, and then sleep with them because she had a shitty day/moment. At the end, you are going to go back to that other person all while they still had to deal with your departure. This happened in both shows and is shitty either way.

No doubt it was shitty, but I'm not going to throw all of the blame on her, either. Hopefully Cole isn't getting his hopes up thinking that they're reconciling. Since he was staring at Luisa's number, for his sake, I'm thinking it was closure sex. Especially since he initiated it.

 

 

I will say I was disappointed in the resolution with Robert's character. I honestly don't recall anything about Alison's father, but I do think she was relating to him as someone that she was desexualizing in her own mind, like a friend or confident who was substantially older. It was a mortifying scene, but I thought that Alison -- while demonstrating unprofessional boundaries -- simply thought of them as friends.

I think Robert was a kindred spirit. She probably thought she had an ally in him since both of their relationships began via affairs. They clearly took a liking to each other beforehand with both loving small town life. It is disappointing that he viewed her as a sex object. However, there was always an undercurrent of creepy sexual tension between them.

[Neurochick]

I found Yvonne horrible, what a bitch!  Robert told Alison that he and Yvonne had an affair, she was best friends with Robert's first wife.  She probably saw herself in Alison and realized that Robert had cheated on his first wife.  She was probably scared that he'd cheat on her with Alison.

 

Alison's problem is she can't read a room.  As soon as she read Noah's book, AND when Robert told her how he and Yvonne met, it should have dawned on Alison why Yvonne was being such a witch to her, so much of a witch that she had to send her husband to tell Alison.  I shook my head, Yvonne is proof that just because you get older, you don't get smarter.  As for Robert's erection, I don't get why it's creepy, it wasn't because llison was touching Robert, it was because of the story she was telling.  She was telling Robert a story about her feelings and passion for Noah and to some people, that's sexier than someone walking around naked.  

 

The problem with Helen's read of Noah, to Alison was that Helen sees herself as a victim in the same way Noah does.  She doesn't get that her never taking her husband's side against her parents did a number on Noah.  Now, Noah is selfish, but Helen can be a pill.  

 

Cole is a mystery to me.  On one hand, it seems like he's the victim in all of this.  His son died, his wife cheated, his family lost their farm.  But at the end, when I realized that Cole owned the diner and that he stole his brother's idea, and his brother's girlfriend, I wonder if Cole is the nice guy he appears to be.  Maybe the reason the detective went after Noah for Scotty's death is because Cole is a big man in town and he has paid the detective off.  I mean the lawyer was correct, why go after Noah, when half the town wanted Scotty dead?

 

Robert and Alison were both inappropriate and creepy during the physical therapy scene. Who talks to their boss's husband like that anyway? I don't think that her outfit was sexy at all but she crossed a line with the sexy talk. Robert is a creepy pervert but Alison is a weirdo too. She has no boundaries and zero self awareness.

 

 

See, I have to disagree with this.  In fact, I don't get this.  In life people don't have the same boundaries.  Some people have higher ones, other have lower.  It's like how some couples kiss in public, and others don't.  It doesn't make one right and the other wrong, it's just different.  I really, really don't see the creep factor at all.  First, Yvonne didn't start out as Alison's boss, they were acquaintances; so their relationship was blurry, and remember Alison went with Robert when Yvonne wanted him to kill the dog.  So their relationship wasn't ever boss/employee.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Neurochick

[truthaboutluv]

As soon as she read Noah's book, AND when Robert told her how he and Yvonne met, it should have dawned on Alison why Yvonne was being such a witch to her, so much of a witch that she had to send her husband to tell Alison.

 

 

Alison read Noah's book after Robert came to tell her she'd essentially been fired, which was also after the whole awkward erection moment. She knew Yvonne was reading the book but since Noah would not let her read it, she didn't know what it was really about. Then Robert confirmed to her that it essentially revealed that she and Noah had had an affair. Still, I don't think she expected some of the language and description of herself she saw when she read the snippets.

 

But at the end, when I realized that Cole owned the diner and that he stole his brother's idea, and his brother's girlfriend, I wonder if Cole is the nice guy he appears to be.

 

 

I know some reference was made about Cole stealing Scotty's idea, I believe from Noah's lawyer, presumably information he picked up while talking to the town people. But is that really true? I can certainly believe someone as arrogant and delusional and an asshole like Scotty believing it and saying it to anyone who would listen but in Cole's memory, Scotty's plan was to open a nightclub in the town. The ending shot with the restaurant name looks like Cole simply bought Oscar's old family style restaurant that Alison worked at and Oscar likely lost when he lost all his money and investments. And then Cole just added his last name to the restaurant name. Frankly, he may not have even done much to the place other than just buy it.

 

Again, I can see Scotty believing that means Cole somehow stole this from him because clearly what Cole was obligated to do was give his money to Scotty so he could go invest in his plans for whatever. Cole having the gall to take his money and use it to make things better for himself would be in Scotty's eyes an act of selfishness on Cole's part. And it is especially delusional if said money really was, as suspected, from the sale of Alison's grandmother's house. So yes, in Scotty's eyes, Cole should have given the money he got from the sale of his ex-wife's home to him.

 

As for Luisa, as someone noted, Luisa certainly made it clear that she was not in a relationship with Scotty and in fact was so disgusted by the whole situation she was wondering if there was a way she could sue him. So I can't buy into the whole "Cole stole his girlfriend", that is even assuming that is who Cole does marry. It certainly seems likely but it would be like this show to throw a random curveball and show him married to someone else.

 

Frankly as I've said, good freaking riddance to Scotty. That this tool had the gall to call Cole a narcissist when had it not been for Helen and Noah likely wanting to avoid the scandal and stress, his ass should have been imprisoned for not just banging an underage kid when he's near 30, but knocking her up, and this even after he was warned away from her and his disgusting behavior by both Alison and Cole. And then his bullshit guilt trips to Cole demanding Cole practically force Alison to sell her house because Cole owes him and the rest of the family. Dude was scum and its kind of ridiculous his death is what's being investigated because again as the lawyer noted, who didn't want his good for nothing ass dead. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[RedheadZombie]

I do hope that in the end it will be revealed that Alison's baby is Cole's and not Noah's. Noah has his hands full with his own four kids and Alison and Cole having a new baby together would certainly help heal the pain of losing their only son. I think Alison and Cole were meant to be together in the end. Noah wanted the excitement of an affair, Alison wanted love and a good marriage.

 

But we saw Alison introducing the baby at the arraignment.  It was Cole's version, and it seemed like he was seeing the baby for the first time.  Although I have personal issues with infidelity, I was willing to put them aside and see where this show would take me.  I was willing to buy into Alison/Noah, but that scene with Cole and Alison was so tender.  I just don't know now.

 

Can't be...the detective had already left the diner when Oscar handed "something" to Noah's lawyer.

 

Since Oscar hates Noah, I assumed he was attempting to sabotage him.  But then I remembered that Oscar hate Cole even more.  I didn't think I cared about the murder mystery, but perhaps I do.

 

So I think Alison does have a poor self-image and finds rejection of any kind very difficult to take and triggering. I think we also have substantial evidence that when she is triggered, afraid she is being left or rejected, she uses sex as a form of self-validation. To help her feel lovable and like someone who will not be left.

 

Alison despised Oscar.  I saw her sleeping with him as more self-injury.  It seemed just another way to cut herself.

 

 I agree that Allison's remarks to Robert were inappropriate, but notice not what she was saying, but the way she was saying it -- in a rush, as if she'd been holding it in for a long time. Because I think she had been. This is not something she can talk about with other people because she will almost invariably meet with disapproval. But the way I see it, she finds out that Robert and Yvonne's marriage resulted from an extramarital affair and she feels she has finally found somebody who understands. In her mind, she doesn't have to make up stories and put on an act anymore because Robert has been there and he gets it, and so she can finally be open and honest with someone in a way that she can't with anyone else, not even with Noah. Allison looks on Robert as someone who won't judge her, and so it never occurs to her that, in this context, what she's saying is inappropriate.

 

In fact, I think the fact that Robert evicted her hurts her more than almost anything else, because she thought she found something like a kindred spirit, only to have him abandon her as well.

 

I agree with you.  I don't think Alison was playing "sexy nurse" as stated upthread.  As a nurse, I would have found it awkward to be both Robert's friend/someone I could confide in, and then my boss who I'm providing free medical care.  It's not quite a situation I would find myself in, simply because I am not the type to discuss my personal life with patients.  But I think it was an unusual situation all around, and therefore normal boundaries aren't in place.   I know I did once go to work in a very upbeat happy mood, and kind of swept into a patient's room.  All seemed well until his girlfriend left.  For the next two days he harassed me, commented on my changing hairstyle (you had a ponytail yesterday, why is it up in a clip now), and speculated that I was a dominatrix, etc.  I guess some would say I played a part in the situation, but I just thought I was having a heck of a conversation with the two of them. 

 

I don't have a problem with how Alison massaged above his knee.  I don't really have a problem that she confided in Robert, because they seemed to have a good rapport, and she had felt comfortable enough with him to discuss Gabriel.  Combining the two was poor judgment, and I continue to think Robert was the perv in the situation.

[HumblePi]

The fact that Yvonne's tone completely changed after reading the book makes it look like she was suddenly threated by Allison.  She probably never noticed her clothing before she read Allison described as "sex." 

 

And that gets me back to my confusion of Allison.  Yvonne wasn't threatened by Allison when she first met her or talked to her.  It's what she read that made her change her mind about Allison.  So are we supposed to see Allison as this super attractive man magnet?  I'm glad they didn't cast the typical big boobed other woman type, but there is nothing about Allison that stands out.  Her personality, looks, job - all run of the mill.  I know woman who are very average looking but have that indescribable "something" that attracts men.  I can't find it here.

I think that Alison herself was quite confused over this as well. I don't think that she ever saw herself as a sexy 'femme fatale' and she doesn't like the stereotype. It was only Noah who saw her as a super attractive irresistible man magnet because it gave him an excuse to be unfaithful to Helen. Overall, Alison is of average figure and looks but Noah chooses to make himself less guilty if he justifies his indiscretion by claiming no man could resist Alison.

 

After this episode, I almost want to see Noah spontaneously combust.

 

Edited November 4, 2015 by HumblePi

[GeminiDancer]

If that's actually considered upstate New York, I find that kind of hilarious. To me, upstate New York would be up in Buffalo and Albany and so on. They are only 60 miles from Manhattan!

 

If it requires the Metro North, and it's beyond Westchester, it's upstate.

[GeminiDancer]

 

Cole is a mystery to me.  On one hand, it seems like he's the victim in all of this.  His son died, his wife cheated, his family lost their farm.  But at the end, when I realized that Cole owned the diner and that he stole his brother's idea, and his brother's girlfriend, I wonder if Cole is the nice guy he appears to be.  Maybe the reason the detective went after Noah for Scotty's death is because Cole is a big man in town and he has paid the detective off.  I mean the lawyer was correct, why go after Noah, when half the town wanted Scotty dead?

 

I don't really think the detective is in anyone's pocket. Noah made himself look very bad by being recorded trying to pay off the mechanic. We know that Noah was drunk that night, he hates Scotty with a passion because of Whitney, he definitely hit something with his car, and he paid off the mechanic. The cards are stacked against him.

[lovinbob]

Apologies ... I was one who introduced the six weeks line. And yes, it was in previews! My bad.

[Ellaria]

I don't really think the detective is in anyone's pocket. Noah made himself look very bad by being recorded trying to pay off the mechanic. We know that Noah was drunk that night, he hates Scotty with a passion because of Whitney, he definitely hit something with his car, and he paid off the mechanic. The cards are stacked against him.

To add to this, I think that Det. Jeffries works for Suffolk County not Montauk police...so much less likely to be "in the pocket" of a Lockhart.

Someone hit Scotty with Noah's car. Not convinced that Noah was driving. Maybe Alison.

[grumpypanda]

Neurochick- I agree that their relationship wasn't a formal employer-employee relationship but Yvonne made it very clear prior to the physical therapy that Alison worked for her and that she was not just a friend helping out.

Of course, creepy is in the eye of the beholder and not everyone is going to perceive things the same exact way. That's what I like about this show, there are so many ways one event can be interpreted.

Edited November 4, 2015 by grumpypanda

[SlackerInc]

I think RHZ had a good insight in describing Alison's sleeping with Oscar as self harm, like another form of cutting herself.

If it requires the Metro North, and it's beyond Westchester, it's upstate.

But would it be "downstate" to someone from Buffalo?

[Nanrad]

No doubt it was shitty, but I'm not going to throw all of the blame on her, either. Hopefully Cole isn't getting his hopes up thinking that they're reconciling. Since he was staring at Luisa's number, for his sake, I'm thinking it was closure sex. Especially since he initiated it.

I think she deserves a majority of the blame and exactly for the reason you stated: Cole could potentially get his hopes up about reuniting.

 

It's one thing to go back to your old home because you have no where to stay and another to sleep with your soon to be ex husband who you left for another man who you are supposedly madly in love with. That confuses the left partner and that gives hope. It does seem as if it was closure sex for Cole, but only after it happened. But, as I mentioned before, falling back into your arms of you soon to be ex husband because you had a shitty day v. having sex with your spouse who left for someone else are two different dynamics. Is Cole completely faultless? No, but he's the one who stands to be hurt more than Alison due to this reunion. He was the one struggling with the separation and looking for answers. He was the one still holding on. Alison got engaged, was looking for a new place, and had a brief talking about having another baby. 

[chocolatine]

Neurochick- I agree that their relationship wasn't a formal employer-employee relationship but Yvonne made it very clear prior to the physical therapy that Alison worked for her and that she was not just a friend helping out.

 

But when Yvonne, Robert, and Alison initially made the arrangement it DID sound more like a friend helping out. It sounded very casual - Alison had nothing else to do in Cold Spring, Robert had fired his PT, Yvonne needed some help with odds and ends. IIRC, Alison even refused to accept any money for her help because Yvonne and Robert were letting her and Noah stay at the guest house for free. It seemed like Yvonne turned on a dime after reading Noah's book, if Alison's recollection is to be believed.