Caitlyn Jenner: Call Me Caitlyn

[Artsda]

Entertainment Tonight showed Kim talking about the Vanity Fair cover, she was at the VF shoot. 

 

 

What's it called? Is there a forum for it yet?

It's a talk show called Sex With Brody. 

Edited June 2, 2015 by Artsda

[truelovekiss]

I have my doubts too, I mean is she trying to make Bruce disappear because she hates him? Because of the guilt of abandoning four children?

Unfortunately, I never really got much regret from Bruce about what a crappy father he was. I'm 23, so I didn't grow up with Bruce as Olympian, but as a Kardashian. I remember at one of the weddings (I think Khole?) He had a talking head, where he said that he had 10 children, and I was like, "whaaaat?!" I knew about the Kardashians, the Kardenners and Brody and Brandon, but not his first two. Anyway, he went on patting himself on the back about being a good dad. We didn't ever hear anything about Bruce's fatherly shortcomings until Brody became a regular on the show, and called him out on it, and he barely acknowledged it. For as much shit as Bruce put up with from Kris and her daughters, I don't remember him ever accepting blame for his mistakes. He seemed to do a lot of deflecting. And while his transition to Caitlyn is an extreme one, he didn't become a separate person. It's still the same person, and the same heart and soul. And Bruce was a crappy father, so I don't have a whole lot of faith that Caitlyn will do much better. I was happy to hear that she got along well with Casey, but it's sad to me that Bruce was never able to relate to her in 30ish years.

Regarding her show, I'm not at all surprised that Casey and Burt aren't part of it. Burt has been around a little bit more, but the only time I ever remember seeing Casey was on the Diane Sawyer interview. I know she has kids and I think she's married. It looks like she just wants a normal life, and to blend in. Good for her.

I'm a little bit more surprised about Brandon and Brody, especially Brandon. Bruce said that Brandon was more understanding than anyone, but I know that he and Leah are expecting a baby, and even though they're more public than Casey and Burt, they seem to enjoy a more low key, private life.

As for Kendall and Kylie, I kind of got the feeling that Kendall has checked out of the show, and possibly her crazy family a little bit. That girl is definitely more Jenner than anything else, she seems to have a lot in common with Brandon, in that she has a public career, but doesn't seem overly interested in the fame aspect. Kylie, I'm surprised about. The girl seems to love being on tv, no matter what it's for.

It's a talk show called Sex With Brody.

Hahahaha yuck.

[Mu Shu]

Ugh, more like Sex with Grody.    He's such a skeezer.

[Artsda]

 

He seemed to do a lot of deflecting. And while his transition to Caitlyn is an extreme one, he didn't become a separate person. It's still the same person, and the same heart and soul. And Bruce was a crappy father, so I don't have a whole lot of faith that Caitlyn will do much better. I was happy to hear that she got along well with Casey, but it's sad to me that Bruce was never able to relate to her in 30ish years.

I agree he was defensive and deflected a lot with Brody. I also thought the having a good conversation with Casey after 34 years is more about the fact Caitlyn and Casey are girls and it seemed like in the article it was more girl talk than a parent/child relationship. Caitlyn can be Casey's friend, when Casey never had a father where as the K girls all got Bruce the father.

[What In The]

Caitlyn can call hi,self a woman, but to me he isn't snd can never be one. Whenever he was conceived he received an x chromosome from his mom and y from his dad. Those will not change. He cannot have a period, carry a fetus, or have a uterus. Sorry, call yourself what you want Jenner, but you are aman.

[GaT]

He seemed to do a lot of deflecting. 

 

I've come to the conclusion that deflecting is a major personality trait of Bruce's/Caitlyn's. Maybe she's just one of those people who can't deal with any kind of conflict, but I bet she deflected through every conversation she had with her kids (and Kris) and that's why nobody understood this was more than cross dressing until it was happening.

[thefog]

Re Caitlin Jenner's debut on the cover of Vanity Fair, sure she looks stunning, but that's because of the hair, the makeup, the wardrobe and the genius of Annie Leibowitz. However, I'm having a problem with the media's going overboard on this story, acting like Caitlin's the first transgender celebrity. She may be the most famous, but she's not the first, by a long shot. Renee Richards, Chaz Bono, Alexis Arquette, Candis Cayne and Laverne Cox all paved the way and if it wasn't for them IMO Caitlin might not be here.

 

As for the kids, maybe if Caitlin cared at least as much about the first four named Jenner as the other Jenner girls or the ones named Kardashian, I might be more sympathetic.

The difference is that these people are not as well known to the general public.  Caitlyn has also the history of being one the greatest Olympians ever - and the image of the ultimate macho athlete, the All-American hero.

 

The past can't be undone or changed.  All she can do is try and correct it moving forward, which she is trying to do.  Doesn't do anyone any good to hold on to past mistakes, regrets, grudges.

Edited June 3, 2015 by escape

[Artsda]

The entertainment shows really pointed out how secretive this whole shoot was. Nobody even at VF knew what was going on. Annie and Buzz had a secret room that had a fake out of order or something sign on the room and they'd go in there and use the computer. They would go in work on the layout, write the article, look at the photos then transfer it onto a thumb USB drive and delete everything off the computer. Then they'd take the thumb drive and lock it up in a safety deposit box until the next time. Nobody knew what they were working on and they kept doing it in secret. Annie showed Kim the photos from the shoot and Kim hid under a blanket with the tablet so nobody would see what she was looking at. LOL I wish there was a photo of that!

 

Talk about so much cloak and dagger.

[HumblePi]

Where does the narcissist end and the woman, the human being,  begin?   All I see is a heavily shopped,  lit, and idealized set of photos.   I'm not Annie Leibowitz, but I'm confident I could take anyone here, sight unseen,   and make them look better.  Sure, she looks fine,   but having money can buy you a somewhat pleasing appearance.   Those are just pictures of a shell, no human spark in them.  This is Bruce's idea of what a woman is-Tits, hair, nails, makeup, shoes.   It's shallow.

 

Caitlyn my dear,  most of us women aren't obsessed with our appearance.   You are, because you think that's how most women think, and because you're a self centered hoo haw.    Being part of the Kardashian family has perverted your views on women, I'm sure.

 

If Caitlyn truly wanted to "change the world"  (that's not self important at ALL) she would have convinced E that she wanted to produce a show about average people who are transitioning,  show their daily life and struggles, and compensate them fairly.     But no, she has to make the big bucks flaunting herself. 

As we've probably discovered, the news today has been filled with Caitlyn Jenner. And now I finally get it. All the public attention, and all the television coverage and all because Bruce Jenner transitioned physically into Caitlyn Jenner?  That's not entirely all. Caitlyn Jenner is officially out of the Kardashian productions going forward and will not be starring in his own 'docu-series' that will be coming out this summer. 'She' may as well cash in on this too since Bruce led a lie all his life to cash in on his fame. Caitlyn will now cash in on the transitioning with her own series,  So, take that Kardashians!  I don't know how this could possibly be enough to make a series out of. Will people really follow a Caitlyn Jenner series to watch as she goes about her daily lunches, interactions with friends and daughters and watch her play golf, ski, and surf?  I don't care anything about it and I'm not interesting in watching at all. Now, if there were to be an episode where Caitlyn and Kris Jenner get together to have a nice lunch together and talk it all through, THEN I might tune in to watch.  LOL!

Edited June 3, 2015 by HumblePi

[Artsda]

 

Caitlyn Jenner is officially out of the Kardashian productions going forward and will not be starring in his own 'docu-series' that will be coming out this summer. 'She' may as well cash in on this too since Bruce led a lie all his life to cash in on his fame. Caitlyn will now cash in on the transitioning with her own series,  So, take that Kardashians!

I'm confused, Caitlyn will be on the Part B half of this season, Kim talks about Caitlyn in the promo. Also some of the Karadashian's are supposed to appear on the new summer docu-series. 

 

Not sure what the Kardashian's are supposed to take? Kim's more involved with this than anyone. Caitlyn's also shown them more love/loyalty/family bond than anyone.

[DangerousMinds]

I sure don't want to hear any more about this from Kimmy. Just. Shut. Up.

[HumblePi]

If you have a better name for this topic let me know. I'm just creating them at the moment.

Since this is just a topic at the moment but will be an entirely new docu-series this summer, will the Caitlyn series be a separate forum and not merely a sub-category of the Keeping Up With The Kardashians?

[iwasish]

The Vanity Fair story reveals just how much this family spun their history. They were never a big happy blended family. Kris and Bruce got tired of the fighting between the different factions and I'm betting Kris popped out two replacements and steamrolled Bruce into fading out of the older J kids lives. He has no excuse for allowing it, he's lucky they even speak to him now. So all the chatter about how we love our brothers is so much BS.

[Artsda]

It's really not Kris's fault Bruce didn't see his own kids for years. She's not the evil queen refusing Bruce to see his biological kids, Brandon and Brody and the other 2 seem to get that and hold Bruce accountable.

[OnceSane]

What I find weird about Caitlyn is that if Brody marries his girlfriend they'll be Caitlyn Jenner and Kaitlyn Jenner. May be considering Brody's track record Caitlyn didn't think long term with this relationship or Brody.

  

Or Bruce continues to have so little to do with Brody that he didn't even know there is a Kaitlyn. I'm hoping she picked Caitlyn before Brody's girl came along, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the other way around.

Or Caitlyn doesn't think Brody's Kaitlyn will last.

[BitterApple]

It's really not Kris's fault Bruce didn't see his own kids for years. She's not the evil queen refusing Bruce to see his biological kids, Brandon and Brody and the other 2 seem to get that and hold Bruce accountable.

I wonder how much fighting between the factions there really was or if Bruce was just lazy and didn't want to be bothered. Linda ended up marrying David Foster so it's not like she was left broke and homeless while Kris and Bruce lived the high life. If the ex-wives were being difficult Bruce could have gone to court to hammer out a custody agreement. It sounds to me like he just gave up.

Edited June 3, 2015 by BitterApple

[Kromm]

Mike Huckabee chimes in:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/mike-huckabee-transgender-shower-girls

Well there you go again, Mr. Fuckabee.

It's really not Kris's fault Bruce didn't see his own kids for years. She's not the evil queen refusing Bruce to see his biological kids, Brandon and Brody and the other 2 seem to get that and hold Bruce accountable.

This is the problem with the whole Arthur Ashe nonsense.  People are eager to champion the Transgender aspect of Jenner's life, and that's overall a good thing, but then we have to reconcile that with a person who's kind of an asshole.

 

See the problem?

[millennium]

I'm not looking forward to them either, but he's part of the Kardashian/Jenner family, & it's not going to be any different than it is for the rest of the females in that family. Bruce didn't get a lot of papps attention because the males in that family don't. Caitlyn is going to get plenty of attention not just because of being trans, but because she is female. The papps & tabloids are going to treat Caitlyn the same way they treat Kim or Kylie. 

It seems to me that people are holding Caitlyn's fame & money against her, & I don't understand why. Would they be happier if Bruce had given away all of his money & then transitioned? No, most trans may not be able to afford a lot of surgeries, but why is it wrong that Bruce could? Yes, he's getting a lot of attention that most trans people don't, but then most trans people are not famous Olympic gold medal winning athletes, so why would they get the same attention? Bruce wasn't like other people before he transitioned, why expect Caitlyn to be any different?

 

I don't know how to explain my point of view to you.   Maybe I can't.

 

I don't have a problem with Jenner having money.   America is a country of haves and have nots, with most of us falling into the latter group.   It's a truth we all come to grips with.

 

I see a man who spent his entire adult life making bank on his image as an Olympic superman, perpetuating and reinforcing that particular macho stereotype in our culture.   For more than 40 years he got rich and famous on that image.   And in all those years, with all that money, with all the public relations resources available to him, he never lifted a finger to make life easier for anyone in the LGBT community. 

 

Now I see the same man -- a man who was also reportedly a bad father and who may have been responsible for a woman's death only weeks ago -- being anointed as the new avatar of the transgender movement in America, an ambassadorship he BOUGHT with the money he made as a "man's man."   Thanks to a carefully-executed public relations strategy and the media juggernaut that is the Kardashians, Bruce Jenner has deftly hijacked a movement that until now has slowly but steadily been growing in strength thanks to the toil and sacrifice of people who were content to labor in anonymity, because the work was never about them, it was about helping others caught in what is truly an unthinkable predicament.

 

I don't know if you remember some years ago when Martha Stewart tried to trademark the name "Katonah."   Katonah is the name of a New York town where Stewart lives (or lived).    She hoped to co-opt Katonah's small-town image to sell her stuff.   She was going to create Martha Stewart Katonah furniture, Martha Stewart Katonah home accents, etc.    Well, the townspeople of Katonah went ballistic when they found out.   Who was Martha Stewart, famous, pretentious, and a relative newcomer, to swagger in, usurp the name of a town built by generations of residents who'd lived and died there, and get rich off it?   The townspeople fought her and won. 

 

I don't expect anyone to understand, but that's how I feel about Jenner.    He has branded the transgender experience and made it his.  From this day forward, and for many years to come, the words "transgender" and "Jenner" will seem synonymous to the public.   They will always be linked.   I'm already seeing "trans-Jenner" comments here and there.

 

Jenner doesn't deserve accolades or awards or worldwide recognition for simply declaring himself transgender and making himself look like a woman.   He BOUGHT that visibility, a visibility so many others have deserved but never got.   I'm talking about the same anonymous people I mentioned above, who devote their lives to attending transgender events around the country, disseminating information, providing counseling and legal information, meeting with local support groups, creating informational videos on youtube, running support websites, challenging local anti-transgender ordinances, etc.   

 

Now and for the foreseeable future, all of those efforts will have the shadow of Bruce Jenner and the Kardashians looming over them.   Every transgender person will now be regarded by friends, family, employers and strangers with Bruce Jenner lurking in the background.

 

To me, that's tragic.   And grotesquely unfair.    Especially since it's been wrought by nothing more than one person's vanity, wealth and greed. 

 

I don't believe for a moment that this dog and pony show is meant to help or inspire anyone but Jenner and Jenner alone.  He's become his own fantasy.

 

You know who I see when I look at those pictures in Vanity Fair? 

 

Michael Jackson.

Edited June 3, 2015 by millennium

[Kromm]

Yeah, I've got to mostly agree with millennium, and hope nobody thinks either of us are being anti-trans in any way. I see it as the opposite.  There's this ridiculous bolstering of someone as a role model, who in truth under the surface seems to be a really questionable one. But a lot of people see the boost in profile of the trans movement as gaining from Jenner's elevation more than the risk she brings.

 

And that risk is real, because by draping these lauds and hopes around Jenner, now the knives will come out with attacks based on her actual past, her actual personality and behavior, and there will be a backwash on the entire trans movement--which in fact contains a lot of far more admirable, noble people in it.

 

It's happened in the past with gay "champions", black leaders (usually the self-appointed Sharptonesque ones, but the point remains that as soon as people started buying into Sharpton's crap, his actual assholishness opened a door for an entire culture to be attacked along with him), and many other groups where the reality of the heroes boosted into the media wasn't very considered, fair, or (ultimately) all that accurate.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Kromm

[JenMcSnark]

The name Caitlyn means "new" or "pure" ...... so I can see why she chose it

Interesting...I didn't know that.  

 

TMZ is saying that she was inspired by the Miss America contestants over the years and particularly liked the names Heather and Cathy.  Then she kind of liked Caitlyn which is the one her assistant, Rhonda, liked.  So that's the one she chose. 

[GaT]

I don't believe for a moment that this dog and pony show is meant to help or inspire anyone but Jenner and Jenner alone.  He's become his own fantasy.

 

 

But why would it be for anyone else? He's never said he was a role model for trans, all he's said is that he has always felt he was a woman & now he's very publically becoming one. It's other people who keep acting like he's become the leader of the trans movement, everything he has done has been for himself & he has never said otherwise.

[JenMcSnark]

I understand this is the party line, but I respectfully disagree.     It won't help the average transgender person gain much at all, except perhaps an unfair comparison to Jenner and the fantasy image manufactured with all of Bruce's financial and media resources.

 

Same as all these young girls who are "inspired" by Kim and Kylie.  It's all a fantasy and unrealistic view of beauty and money IMO. 

[millennium]

But why would it be for anyone else? He's never said he was a role model for trans, all he's said is that he has always felt he was a woman & now he's very publically becoming one. It's other people who keep acting like he's become the leader of the trans movement, everything he has done has been for himself & he has never said otherwise.

 

I believe Jenner said he was hoping to "change the world."    To me, that implies far more than personal satisfaction.

Interesting...I didn't know that.  

 

TMZ is saying that she was inspired by the Miss America contestants over the years and particularly liked the names Heather and Cathy.  Then she kind of liked Caitlyn which is the one her assistant, Rhonda, liked.  So that's the one she chose. 

 

Most transgender people know their true names, have known it for years, in many cases since childhood, and would never need to discuss it with an assistant.

Yeah, I've got to mostly agree with millennium, and hope nobody thinks either of us are being anti-trans in any way. I see it as the opposite. 

 

You, Kromm, have been the most reasonable voice of all in discussions on this topic.   I remember you posted that you have a friend who is transgender.    She's a lucky girl.

Edited June 3, 2015 by millennium

[CrinkleCutCat]

I started to write a post wondering about what Caitlyn's kids will call her and about how difficult it must be to call 'Dad' something different. Would a transitioning woman want to still be called 'Dad'?

But that made me think more about how difficult it would be to have your father actually be someone different. However, are Bruce and Caitlyn different? Are they the same person?

Then I started to feel like Alice falling down the rabbit hole so I deleted everything I wrote. (It was way more detailed than this summary!). It's all too deep and confusing and thought provoking for me today! Plus, I only ever see what is portrayed in the public domain, so I would never get any resolution to my questions/musings!

[Kromm]

I started to write a post wondering about what Caitlyn's kids will call her and about how difficult it must be to call 'Dad' something different. Would a transitioning woman want to still be called 'Dad'?

 

I don't suppose there's any one answer to this, but my gut says it's probably going to be along the lines of "call me Caitlyn".  Which sounds a bit cold until you think about how much more complicated any other option is.

[CajunGirl]

First things first... I'm definitely a "to each his own" kind of gal. People should be allowed to live their lives as they choose as long as they aren't harming others.

BUT... I'm having a really hard time with Bruce/Caitlyn - not because of his transitioning, but because of what her chosen "look" says about women and ageism.

He (she) hasn't had to endure years of periods, hormonal mood swings, stretch marks, baby pooch, fear of estrogen- based cancers, years of Pap tests and mammograms and Menopause. She's also never experienced (and never will) the miracle of carrying and bringing life into the world. Instead, he gets to "become" this fabulously sexy 65-year old woman, primarily because he had the means to afford the best plastic surgeons and make-up artists and clothes and physical trainers. In the meantime, most of us REAL women of a certain age are dealing with saggy tits, dry, crepey skin, hair loss and the beginnings of turkey neck. If Bruce/Caitlyn's main motivation was to identify as a woman, wouldn't she be more interested in experiencing what womanhood at 65 really feels/looks like?

I know I sound bitter. I don't mean to. It's just I don't think Bruce can experience womanhood just by changing his looks, buying an awesome body and changing his name to Caitlyn. There's so much more to being a woman... And by 65, we've earned the right to be defined by so much more than just our looks. I understand his wanting to be attractive -we all do. But by being shaped and molded into a totally unrealistic version of what most 65-year old women look like, I feel he/she is devaluing women his/her age who have lived their entire lives as women and have all the battle scars and worry lines and saggy upper arms and the belly pooch to show for it.

However, I do wish her well and hope that she is allowed to enjoy her new life without constant media attention. Oh wait....

[OnceSane]

Since this is just a topic at the moment but will be an entirely new docu-series this summer, will the Caitlyn series be a separate forum and not merely a sub-category of the Keeping Up With The Kardashians?

The docu-series will have its own forum.

[SnarkKitty]

I have long felt that Bruce's great fatherly relationship with the Kardashian kids stemmed entirely from his obsession with them all, including Kris. I think he loved them as much, if not more, because they represented this feminine ideal to him, and the closer he was to them, the closer he was to the dream. His own kids plead with him to get some acknowledgment of what he's done wrong and his reaction was really, get over it. Yet he almost grovels to get forgiveness from the Ks. It was almost ridiculous how he ignored his own children, yet was happy to get any scraps of attention from Kris' girls. Even now.

 

This isn't just from the show itself, but also the many times you hear Bruce on the family filmed clips over the years. He was just so happy to be included in the hen's nest. He has had very little use for the other men in the family as they've come and gone. Even sports stars like Lamar and Reggie never generated real relationships. 

 

With the advent of this cover, the "docu-series," the non-stop talk about glamming up, the giddiness of having stolen Kardashian wares, those ridiculously large tits and the K without the K name I'm now certain. C(K)aitlyn's true happiness is he's finally taking his place as the newest Kardashian doll.

[Snarryfan]

 

He (she) hasn't had to endure years of periods, hormonal mood swings, stretch marks, baby pooch, fear of estrogen- based cancers, years of Pap tests and mammograms and Menopause. She's also never experienced (and never will) the miracle of carrying and bringing life into the world. Instead, he gets to "become" this fabulously sexy 65-year old woman, primarily because he had the means to afford the best plastic surgeons and make-up artists and clothes and physical trainers. In the meantime, most of us REAL women of a certain age are dealing with saggy tits, dry, crepey skin, hair loss and the beginnings of turkey neck. If Bruce/Caitlyn's main motivation was to identify as a woman, wouldn't she be more interested in experiencing what womanhood at 65 really feels/looks like?

 

But that is the inherent unfairness that trans people live with--because they were not born the biological sex that matches their gender they are robbed of the experiences that cis-people have and are then judged as inauthentic because they don't have to deal with what "real women" go through. True, she (and every other trans woman) hasn't had to deal with stretch marks or mood swings...they just have to deal with being tortured (in Jesus's name), disowned, being homeless, being sexually assaulted, being murdered for violating the strictly policed gender codes.  I mean after all, Brandon Teena never had to deal with the difficulties of male puberty...oh wait, instead he was just gang-raped and murdered--oh, well!

 

And please, someone tell me what it means to be a woman?  I see that posted over and over here. "oh, she is just interested in her looks, oh she just wants the clothes, she has no idea what it is to be a "real" woman. What does that mean. There is no universal experience of womanhood and I don't think it can be defined. There are biological characteristics that mark someone as female (XX chromosome and normative genitalia) but that's it.  A stone butch aggressive has a very different idea of what it means to be "woman" than a femme 22 year old paralegal working in a law firm. Both are women and both express their womanhood--through gender presentation which is dress, hair, make-up, coding--but their is no single unifying thing.  I have no intention of ever having a fetus in my uterus and if I did I would not breast feed because I consider my tits for sex not food, I skip my period by manipulating my BC pills, I sometimes wear femme drag and sometimes wear shorts/a tee/ no make-up. Do these actions somehow make me not a woman?

 

 

 

 

And that risk is real, because by draping these lauds and hopes around Jenner, now the knives will come out with attacks based on her actual past, her actual personality and behavior, and there will be a backwash on the entire trans movement--which in fact contains a lot of far more admirable, noble people in it.

 

Trans people are people and I don't think have any interest as being held up as noble savages, living quiet lives of desperation to make cis-liberals feel better about themselves.  All people have issues, flaws, faults, that does not make their experience any less significant.  Laverne Cox was attacked for being on Time because she is "too beautiful" and not representative of trans women.  Brandon Teena was a criminal, does that make his story less important?  Trans people can be assholes, gay people can be assholes--that doesn't mean their ability to speak to their community is invalid.  It's easy to say "I hate the Kardashians therefore this is bad for trans people" but if 1 twelve year old trans kid can point to Caitlyn Jenner and begin that conversation with their parents--fuck everything else. 

 

 

Most transgender people know their true names, have known it for years, in many cases since childhood, and would never need to discuss it with an assistant.

 

Not necessarily. There has been a wave amongst the lesbian community in recent years of butches becoming transmen. Some had repressed their feelings for a long time for fear of abandoning their feminist sensibilities and joining the patriarchy. Besides, maybe she just wanted a 2nd opinion.

[jnymph]

Once again, focused on looks and appearance rather than what the award actually means.

 

https://twitter.com/Caitlyn_Jenner/status/605802182210809857

 

IMO she's morphed more into a Kardashian than anything else.    I'm starting to get annoyed with her.

Edited June 3, 2015 by jnymph

[OakGoblinFly]

Once again, focused on looks and appearance rather than what the award actually means.

 

https://twitter.com/Caitlyn_Jenner/status/605802182210809857

 

IMO she's morphed more into a Kardashian than anything else.    I'm starting to get annoyed with her.

 

 

I took that tweet as a joke ...... I like that Caitlyn is happy, having fun, and can make jokes ..... good for her.

 

I think that the award show will be Caitlyn's first public, red carpet event ..... I think it perfectly reasonable to be thinking about how to best present herself .......starlets sometimes plan their red carpet dress for months, nothing unreasonable there. 

[Kromm]

Trans people are people and I don't think have any interest as being held up as noble savages, living quiet lives of desperation to make cis-liberals feel better about themselves.  All people have issues, flaws, faults, that does not make their experience any less significant.  Laverne Cox was attacked for being on Time because she is "too beautiful" and not representative of trans women.  Brandon Teena was a criminal, does that make his story less important?  Trans people can be assholes, gay people can be assholes--that doesn't mean their ability to speak to their community is invalid.  It's easy to say "I hate the Kardashians therefore this is bad for trans people" but if 1 twelve year old trans kid can point to Caitlyn Jenner and begin that conversation with their parents--fuck everything else. 

That sounds like blame shifting onto cis-liberals as a whole just because as you say, people will be people and may loathe Caitlyn Jenner because Caitlyn is also Bruce. The point of view that the worst of a community can speak for a community is nice in the abstract, but the effectiveness depends a lot on the goals being met or missed.

 

If Caitlyn starts conversations, if that's the only goal, then as you say it's been met, and quite well.

 

What may not be met nearly as much is if you also have a goal to reach the hearts and minds of people who are not as directly affected.  It sounds like you're dismissive of that as a goal entirely, so I doubt we're going to agree on this.  

 

And there's still particularly the stench of hypocrisy to something like awarding the Ashe Award on such a shaky basis.  Jenner simply being on tons of reality shows and red carpets, and lets be honest, getting pictures on the covers of major magazines based on formerly being named Bruce Jenner and having Kanye West and the Kardashians as family would have led to the same conversations without quite as much hypocrisy.    

[Snarryfan]

They gave the award last year to Michael Sam whose only act was coming out. Now, I applaud Michael Sam for coming out BUT he didn't go on to lead a team to the Super Bowl, or impress everyone with his rushing. He was drafted, fizzled, appeared on DWTS, and is now in the Canadian Football League.  Robin Roberts got the award, and she has nothing to do with sports, because she survived cancer...something people do every day.

 

Awards like the Ashe award are given for ratings. She isn't being handed the Nobel.

[Artsda]

 

This isn't just from the show itself, but also the many times you hear Bruce on the family filmed clips over the years. He was just so happy to be included in the hen's nest. He has had very little use for the other men in the family as they've come and gone. Even sports stars like Lamar and Reggie never generated real relationships.

Lamar and Bruce were close. They used to always go off together to golf. Considering the  parade of men he went through from the second the girls started dating. I couldn't blame Bruce for not really bonding with any because it's possible he didn't think they'd stick. Ie. Kim's 72 day marriage. 

 

The promo for the docu-series and title is out.

http://tvline.com/2015/06/03/caitlyn-jenner-e-series-i-am-cait-video-promo/

[Found A Peanut]

Yeah, I've got to mostly agree with millennium, and hope nobody thinks either of us are being anti-trans in any way. I see it as the opposite. There's this ridiculous bolstering of someone as a role model, who in truth under the surface seems to be a really questionable one. But a lot of people see the boost in profile of the trans movement as gaining from Jenner's elevation more than the risk she brings.

And that risk is real, because by draping these lauds and hopes around Jenner, now the knives will come out with attacks based on her actual past, her actual personality and behavior, and there will be a backwash on the entire trans movement--which in fact contains a lot of far more admirable, noble people in it.

It's happened in the past with gay "champions", black leaders (usually the self-appointed Sharptonesque ones, but the point remains that as soon as people started buying into Sharpton's crap, his actual assholishness opened a door for an entire culture to be attacked along with him), and many other groups where the reality of the heroes boosted into the media wasn't very considered, fair, or (ultimately) all that accurate.

Critics are always looking for the clay feet on their opponents' idols, that'll never change. It doesn't really matter how pristine a leader/role model is, a ferocious opposition will find something, anything, or nothing at all, really, and wave the banner high. I think the danger is really how much the person at the eye of the storm buys into their own press and if they begin overreaching.

I don't personally buy into the Caitlyn is a whole new person and will now be the parent we deserved line of thinking that the first four Jenner kids seem to be embracing, but I certainly sympathize with their wish for that. But I think that Caitlyn is the same old asshole that Bruce was who parented as it suited her or didn't. Kris wasn't even in the picture when Caitlyn abandoned her oldest two and, as far as I'm concerned, her youngest two got abandoned when she moved out, especially Kylie. I'm fully supportive of Caitlyn's transition, and I feel like this publicity - especially the very visible, pervasive social media stuff - could do an enormous amount of good in the world, (yay! an out, conservative, republican transperson!), but I don't like Caitlyn any better than I liked Bruce. I just don't think that everybody needs to like Caitlyn or that she must be an exemplary person in general for her to have an important, positive impact on our culture.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Found A Peanut

[GaT]

The promo for the docu-series and title is out.

http://tvline.com/2015/06/03/caitlyn-jenner-e-series-i-am-cait-video-promo/

It actually looks interesting, & I like how the first thing she discusses is how women are judged on their looks.

[iwasish]

Once again, focused on looks and appearance rather than what the award actually means.

https://twitter.com/Caitlyn_Jenner/status/605802182210809857

IMO she's morphed more into a Kardashian than anything else. I'm starting to get annoyed with her.

It's kind of sad that as a man Bruce could walk around in putter pants and sweat shirts and be perfectly comfortable. But as a woman he feels pressure to spend all that time on his appearance, hair and makeup. I guess he'll become a kard carrying Kardashian with his own glam squad. I'm hoping his view on being a woman goes deeper than that. That she'll have some intellectual curiosity and interest in things other than whether or not her ass looks fat in a certain dress and how to eat a salad without ruining her lipstick.

[Snarryfan]

 

But as a woman he feels pressure to spend all that time on his appearance, hair and makeup.

Welcome to being a woman in a capitalist patriarchy--the only difference is that transwomen are policed far more harshly.

[iwasish]

It actually looks interesting, & I like how the first thing she discusses is how women are judged on their looks.

Ironic too that she's right there dolling herself up for the camera and extolling the virtues of having oneself professionally made up.

I hope the show will be more than the zany adventures of Caitlyn as she goes about life as a woman, with her crazy side kicks Khloe and Kim.

Welcome to being a woman in a capitalist patriarchy--the only difference is that transwomen are policed far more harshly.

He was a part of that patriarchy for 65 years too. I wonder what pressures he put on his wives and daughters to look good.

[xls]

Same as all these young girls who are "inspired" by Kim and Kylie.  It's all a fantasy and unrealistic view of beauty and money IMO. 

Catlyn will never lean how to be a lady under Kim's tutelage, that's for sure.

[Janet Snakehole]

I am not sure that it is fair to say Caitlyn is pressured to wear makeup. I agree that there is enormous pressure on women to strive to look their best, particularly those in the media, but it may be that Kaitlyn feels relief at getting to do this after not being able to for so long. Even if she criticizes how women are viewed in the media, it is kind of unfair to expect her to ignore the pressures. What celebrity woman would go on the cover of Vanity Fair these days without photoshop, makeup, or hair styling?

[Artsda]

 

I don't personally buy into the Caitlyn is a whole new person and will now be the parent we deserved line of thinking that the first four Jenner kids seem to be embracing, but I certainly sympathize with their wish for that. But I think that Caitlyn is the same old asshole that Bruce was who parented as it suited her or didn't.

I agree that Caitlyn is the same person. I  think the first 4 want desperately to treat this as Bruce is gone, Caitlyn's a brand new person. Because of the lack of being there from Bruce in their lives that they're excusing and blaming all the choices Bruce made in not being in their lives on his gender identity. The problem is  he wasn't a bad parent, he was an absent and bad parent to them. To the other 6 he was the best parent. 

 

 

Will Caitlyn Jenner Be M.A.C’s Next Collaboration?

Edited June 3, 2015 by Artsda

[Mulva]

Am I the only person who remembers that 'Caitlyn' caused a fatal car accident a few months ago?

[Snarryfan]

Police haven't determined who caused the wreck--it is still under investigation.

[GaT]

Am I the only person who remembers that 'Caitlyn' caused a fatal car accident a few months ago?

 

 

Police haven't determined who caused the wreck--it is still under investigation.

People keep acting like this was all Bruce's fault even though the police haven't made an official determination yet, & while I am very sorry for the poor woman who died, out of all the people involved in the accident, she was the only one who didn't have a driver's license. Whoever caused the accident, she was at least partially to blame for it.

[partofme]

People keep acting like this was all Bruce's fault even though the police haven't made an official determination yet, & while I am very sorry for the poor woman who died, out of all the people involved in the accident, she was the only one who didn't have a driver's license. Whoever caused the accident, she was at least partially to blame for it.

Caitlyn may or may not have been responsible for the accident, but she was caught by TMZ texting and driving a week later and I have a problem with that.  I am glad she's finally free to be herself.

[Maysie]

I don't necessarily think Caitlyn=Bruce/Bruce=Caitlyn. On one hand, yes, they're still one in the same person: same basic values and ethical code, same Republican, same enjoyment of golf, etc. etc. However, I think that Caitlyn will morph into someone a bit different. I mean, I think everyone changes a bit over time as we age and become exposed to more things that shape our view point. As she's finally able to live her life the way she really has always wanted to live it, I can see where it will change her a bit. How it changes her, we'll see. I mean, she could feel liberated and become a more open, generous person, or she could feel bitter or angry that she's only getting to experience what she's always felt she was meant to be so late in life. I think no one will really know until the dust settles and she's not the flavor of the day. I imagine there's an element of basking in the limelight of rolling out her new her, as well as a bit of terror, too. Every step she takes, every mistake will be chronicled and that's on her. I think her responses to the goods and the bads will say a lot about who Caitlyn really is.

 

I guess I'm not impressed with her as of yet because of her anger with her kids not supporting the show. I understand disappointment, but anger seems a bit strong and quite frankly, selfish. I don't know if she's been through any counseling through this whole process, but if so, I would think coping with her children's reactions should be a large part of it. I don't think she should have remained Bruce for the rest of her life simply because of her kids having a hard time with it, but it sure seems to me that her transition isn't entirely about her.

 

As for what her kids call her, it's tough because she is not their mother. He literally fathered them and no new name, no operation, no makeup or photo shoot changes that. Dad doesn't seem quite right, father is rather formal, so I can see Caitlyn.

[Artsda]

Caitlyn seems to have a lot of sympathy on her side compared to the bio older 4 kids. Which is I think unfair.

 

During The Talk today they showed the promo and said that despite Caitlyn's requests the 4 older kids wouldn't appear with the other kids on the show and the audience reacted in a groaning/booing way. 

 

I do wonder what Kendall and Kylie will call her, since Kendall was so emotional over not wanting to lose her dad, Khloe too.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Artsda

[SnarkKitty]

Lamar and Bruce were close. They used to always go off together to golf. Considering the  parade of men he went through from the second the girls started dating. I couldn't blame Bruce for not really bonding with any because it's possible he didn't think they'd stick. Ie. Kim's 72 day marriage. 

 

The promo for the docu-series and title is out.

http://tvline.com/2015/06/03/caitlyn-jenner-e-series-i-am-cait-video-promo/

 

 

He liked him - and they played golf a bit, but I don't know about close. Didn't seem anyone was close to Lamar in that family besides Rob. It was eventually revealed he spent almost no time around any of the rest of them.

 

And what of Scott? Clearly he stuck around.

 

I'm not saying he HAD to form relationships, I'm just saying I don't think he was at all interested except being one of the K's, but always through the looking glass. He's positively giddy with any attention from Kim, and this was well before Caitlyn.

[Mu Shu]

But why would it be for anyone else? He's never said he was a role model for trans, all he's said is that he has always felt he was a woman & now he's very publically becoming one. It's other people who keep acting like he's become the leader of the trans movement, everything he has done has been for himself & he has never said otherwise.

Ah, but in the "About Bruce"  special I believe  he DID say "We're going to change the world!"     Sounds pretty damned important to me.