Gender On Television: It's Like Feminism Never Happened

[Actionmage]

I watched The Red Band Society's pilot last night. There were some issues I had with how they dealt with the guys, as opposed to the gals. Yet the big glaring, tone-deaf part just won't leave me alone, at least right now.

 

To introduce the cliché, hateful head cheerleader ( of a "PCHS", no less!) she chews on whoever gets within line of sight, then calls for another go at the human pyramids. She faints and falls off the guys' shoulders to the padded gym floor, but all the others can do is circle around her, whip out their phones and snap pictures of this unconscious blob of hate. Then, the girl who brought her water earlier ( and is named Water Girl in the credits on IMDb) runs over finishing a call to emergency services and then, under the guise of trying to resuscitate Kara ( the hateful head cheerleader), appears to kiss the unconscious young woman. Which also earns a round of photograph snaps.

 

This is the most cynical character introduction I think I have seen. In a world where Steubenville actually happened, this was seriously tone-deaf. Especially as I am under the impression we were supposed to think it was funny, straight up. Another way we may have been supposed to take the scene was a cynical " Those kids!"/suck our teeth and shake our heads at "how cynical kids are today." 

 

The character Water Girl is even verbally smacked down for everything later by Kara. Water Girl bites of a retort that momentarily shuts Kara up, but adding Water Girl's assault on an unconscious crush object? Too much, too far and not funny.  The writers didn't need to add Water Girl's assault/nonconsensual act to the "Kara's a meany mean mean Mean Girl" intro. Yet it's there because enough folks think that "macking" on an unconscious person is funny that it was kept in the final product!

 

Also, underage teens were "allowed" to purchase beer because one of the three teen guys spoke Spanish and told the clerk that they ( the other two guys) were trying to get the one-legged guy laid. Weeellll, then, young sirs, the beer is yours! Here you go! Which had me wondering about how the male clerk would have reacted to two underage teen gals trying to get their one-legged gal pal laid?  Maybe instead of enthusiastic understanding, the hypothetical gal would have got a pity okay with the booze?

[possibilities]

The inventor of the Bechdel Test won a MacArthur Genius Award!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/09/17/alison-bechdel-just-won-a-macarthur-foundation-genius-grant-shes-already-changed-the-way-we-talk-about-film/

[DangerousMinds]

Well, lucindabelle, I look forward to a day when you can feel represented on TV.

I sure am racking my brain trying to come up with any TV character that fits your description. Nothing! Liz Lemon from 30 Rock, maybe? That's all I've got...

Olivia Benson from Law &Order SVU? And now that she is in her late 40's and may adopt a baby, it seems as if it's mostly women viewers out there that have a problem with it, stating that she's too old now and can't possibly parent her child alone.

[lucindabelle]

Parenting alone IS an issue... And one reason I haven't done it, I'd be more concerned at Olivia's weird hours though. Thing is she can probably retire with a nifty pension in a year or two because police do tinat. More power to her.

[Actionmage]

(From the Arrow episode 2 thread, re: Millionaire Ray Palmer)

 

Oh, he's totally a stalker. I know many people might not feel the same as I do, but it's slightly better for me in that he's not pursuing her romantically, he's aggressively recruiting her. Yeah, he's doing it in an over-the-top, Hollywood way, but I've seen some companies do some crazy things to court a potential employee. He wants her skill set. He'll do what it takes to get it and he's not used to people telling him no.

 

(emphasis mine)

 

Sadly, while this is not a widely held belief- it's okay because Corporate- Ray Palmer is still being given a thumbs up, character-wise. He was introduced knowing a female character's background and approached her at her wage slave job. He proceeded to use her unwittingly to hack her own former employer so he could buy the company.  As a hacker, Felicity, in retaliation left porcupine flatulence sound on all of his electronic devices. He pinged her phone and tracked her to a hospital. Where he tried to apologize for using her to buy out the company. She had to spell it out in tiny words so he'd understand: Not. Interested. Going to see family.   Go. Away.

 

(From Ep.1 thread, under the poster's "The Good" list)

It's so refreshing if he's not gonna be evil. The slimy human line was funny and I liked the acknowledgement that the city really sucks. I didn't mind the hacking/stalking stuff. I figured that's how geeks must flirt, by showing off their hacking prowess.

 

That is how Hollywood has made it seem since Hackers, at the very least. But that wasn't flirting, that was straight-up stalking on Ray's end of things.. Not cool. Period.  Also, how does hacking into your supposed crush object's anything come off as romantic in any sense?  It is creepy and controlling. Doing a hack-off on a third party site might get hackers turned on, but due to being hackers, I bet they do not enjoy unwanted incursions into their private spaces. Also, conflating geek and hacker is a non-starter for me. Hackers are geeks about computers and code, but also other things. Geeks are not necessarily hackers, like myself.

 

In the episode this week, Episode 2, Ray purchased for over a billion dollars, an entire chain of electronics stores, so Felicity would officially be working for him. The writers actually had Ray say "Most girls would be flattered if...." I tuned out due to the rage. Felicity gave a wonderful speech about how creeptastic he was acting and how he was, in fact, a stalker and to stop doing that. She quit whatever job- which wasn't mentioned- because she didn't want or need that noise in her life, especially as a friend had died just hours before this scene with Palmer.  That he actually read that Felicity was upset about something that wasn't him was being given as a positive. As another poster stated, what, Felicity can't be grieving her friend and pissed about the depth of Palmer's stalking?

 

 Ray Palmer is played by the nice-looking Brandon Routh. To add to the inanity,  the character has also been teased by show executives as a potential love interest for Felicity for months. Whether it is "just" corporate head-hunting or romantic pursuit, what Ray Palmer has done on-screen has laws against it.

 

Because of show reasons, Felicity ends up asking Ray Palmer for whatever job he was intending.    A job that still hasn't been described to anyone, even Nameless Extra 7 at the fancy gala, as in "I'm excited to work with Felicity Smoak on [whatever project.]"   So now she will be working, and potentially dating, her stalker.  It's okay, though, he's also supposed to be a hero. ::eyeroll::

[kiddo82]

Say what you will about Ryan Murphy, but look at whose careers he's brought to a whole new audience with American Horror Story. I'm 32 years old and while I certainly knew who Jessica Lange was 3 years ago, I honestly had never seen her in anything before. Now, Jessica Lange is cool. And while Kathy Bates and Angela Bassett have probably been more visible presences in recent years, their talents are also being displayed to a younger demo. Frances Conroy, Patti Lupone, Patti LaBelle (her character hasn't really experienced anything memorable...yet), I mean these women are borderline if not full fledged legends and now they are interesting to those who otherwise might not have heard their names before. And most of these characters aren't delicate or aren't just "mom" or "grandma" to the main starlet. Rather, they are bad, they are evil, they are darkly humorous, and above all they are memorable. It's very cool to think about in this age, when, especially given the success of the show, the producers could probably cast almost anyone they please.

Edited October 18, 2014 by kiddo82

[izabella]

I'm pretty sick of seeing actresses who have had plastic surgery in order to look "younger."  Their faces look so stretched out and ballooned up that they are completely unnatural and I spend most of the time trying to figure out why they look so wrong and a little freakish, rather than on the character.  This happened to me most recently with Gracepoint's Ellie in a scene where she is talking with her son and all I could do was stare at her face.

 

It really bothers me that we can't see women age normally on tv, and even grandmothers need plastic surgery to be cast.  It's infuriating that Hollywood and society accept this as the norm for 30+ actresses. 

Edited October 23, 2014 by izabella

[Aquarius]

I'm pretty sick of seeing actresses who have had plastic surgery in order to look "younger."  Their faces look so stretched out and ballooned up that they are completely unnatural and I spend most of the time trying to figure out why they look so wrong and a little freakish, rather than on the character.  This happened to me most recently with Gracepoint's Ellie in a scene where she is talking with her son and all I could do was stare at her face.

 

It really bothers me that we can't see women age normally on tv, and even grandmothers need plastic surgery to be cast.  It's infuriating that Hollywood and society accept this as the norm for 30+ actresses. 

 

Surgery, and Botox.  For fuck's sake half the actresses on TV can't even emote because their faces are frozen.  It's so distracting.

[izabella]

Surgery, and Botox.  For fuck's sake half the actresses on TV can't even emote because their faces are frozen.  It's so distracting.

 

It affects their ability to speak clearly, as well. 

 

When I compare Maggie Smith and Shirley McClain on Downton Abbey, it seems nuts.  I love how expressive Maggie is with just a tilt of her head and a lift of her eyebrow.  I can't imagine the Dowager Countess with a frozen face.

[Niuxita]

 

I'm pretty sick of seeing actresses who have had plastic surgery in order to look "younger."  Their faces look so stretched out and ballooned up that they are completely unnatural and I spend most of the time trying to figure out why they look so wrong and a little freakish, rather than on the character.  This happened to me most recently with Gracepoint's Ellie in a scene where she is talking with her son and all I could do was stare at her face.

 

And it's equally sickenng to see them dragged through the coals for doing what they want with their own bodies. Yes, it's sad seeing them having to do that because society is more afraid of wrinkles in a woman than of Ebola (although when they let themselves age normally, all you see are comments about how "old" they look, so it's damned if you do, damned if you don't), but it's equally problematic to assume none of them do it because *gasp* they might want to. Renee Zellwegger is a perfect example. Before, when she was starring in films, I never heard ONE positive comment about her face. So then she goes and changes her face because she can do whatever she wants with her body without being shamed for it, and, surprise surprise, now she's being shamed for changing the face people gave her so much grief for. I'm really tired of this faux women-positive discourse of judging women's appearance in this way. How is this any different from execs who order female leads to lose weight or get those procedures in the first place? 

[Wiendish Fitch]

And it's equally sickenng to see them dragged through the coals for doing what they want with their own bodies. Yes, it's sad seeing them having to do that because society is more afraid of wrinkles in a woman than of Ebola (although when they let themselves age normally, all you see are comments about how "old" they look, so it's damned if you do, damned if you don't), but it's equally problematic to assume none of them do it because *gasp* they might want to. Renee Zellwegger is a perfect example. Before, when she was starring in films, I never heard ONE positive comment about her face. So then she goes and changes her face because she can do whatever she wants with her body without being shamed for it, and, surprise surprise, now she's being shamed for changing the face people gave her so much grief for. I'm really tired of this faux women-positive discourse of judging women's appearance in this way. How is this any different from execs who order female leads to lose weight or get those procedures in the first place? 

 

I made the mistake of purchasing and reading Frank Langella's gossipy memoir Dropped Names (hey, it was a Kindle sale item). Langella, who is a good actor but a massive prick, drags people much more famous, interesting, and accomplished than he is through the mud (Charlton Heston, Richard Burton, even good ol' Paul Newman aren't safe), and he saves the worst for the women (the chapter on poor Rita Hayworth will both break your heart and churn your stomach). In the chapter on the late Susannah York, he talks smack about what a beauty she was in Tom Jones and They Shoot Horses, Don't They?, and how she'd allowed herself to grow so unrecognizably aged and haggard (just so we're clear, York was a year younger than Langella). This is an attitude very common in society, especially older men: when women grow old, we act as though they've done something wrong. Society treats older women like decrepit, eyesore buildings that are offending everyone else, and should be torn down for newer models.

Back to Langella, his hateful critique about York's unforgivable crime of not dying before 40 alone would leave a bad taste in the mouth of anyone with a conscience, but it gets worse. He then mentions how her passing was acknowledged in the "In Memoriam" part of the Oscars, and talks about an older actress presenting, and then he proceeds to gripe about how her plastic surgery, dyed and styled hair, and unnaturally fit body! Not one page before he was bemoaning York's faded beauty and now he was tearing another actress a new one for not aging naturally! Do you want women to age gracefully, or do you want them to battle time and nature and preserve their looks? Make up your mind, they can't do both! I hate to remind everyone, but aging is the price you pay for not dying! 

 

People need to treat women, of all ages, with the respect and dignity they deserve, and to let them age however the hell they see fit. 

 

P.S.

On a similar note, Esther Williams mentioned, in her autobiography, that she often got the "Boy, you got old" line from fans of her movies. Her response? "Look in the mirror, so did you!"

[BoogieBurns]

I see this "age-shaming" (I hate calling it that) trend happening to Lauren Graham on the Parenthood thread. People are basically unhappy that she looks older than her Gilmore Girls days. She looks older because she is older. Gilmore Girls premiered in 2000. She was playing 32 and now she is playing mid 40's. They are even mad that the part in her hair makes her hair look like it's thinning. 

 

She is a beautiful actress who looks younger than her years. But if she was allegedly full of botox (like the woman who plays her mother on the show) they would be mad that she is trying to change her face. 

 

ETA: Someone at Buzzfeed definitely reads these boards, because this was posted today.

Edited October 27, 2014 by BoogieBurns

[Wax Lion]

 

ETA: Someone at Buzzfeed definitely reads these boards, because this was posted today.

 

They picked an odd picture of Keiko Agena. She's been in things I've seen recently and I can recognize her if I know to look for her in the episode but I would not recognize the picture Buzzfeed used.

 

I don't know gossip well enough to give this a basic fact checking but I had someone tell me that the actresses who are today being praised for "aging gracefully" (like Jessica Lange) have had their time being mocked for having plastic surgery, just that they've had the bad work fixed. And now they're being used to shame other actresses who aren't aging the "right" way.

[Rick Kitchen]

It affects their ability to speak clearly, as well. 

 

When I compare Maggie Smith and Shirley McClain on Downton Abbey, it seems nuts.  I love how expressive Maggie is with just a tilt of her head and a lift of her eyebrow.  I can't imagine the Dowager Countess with a frozen face.

 

Donna Mills on "General Hospital".  She can't open her mouth to enunciate properly.

[galax-arena]

I don't really have any love for Girls or Lena Dunham, but I do think it's cool that four out of the five shows nominated for the Golden Globes' Best TV Comedy/Musical are created by and have female showrunners. Pretty nifty. 

[Wax Lion]

I understand why people question the Golden Globes' credibility. That group sounds pretty shady. But when I look at their results, they avoid a lot of the problems the "respectable" awards do, including the tendency to dismiss women and genres seen as feminine as not serious enough for awards.

[Luckylyn]

Kaley Cuoco-Sweeting: I Don't Consider Myself a Feminist

 

I think she makes a valid point that if you feel you haven't experienced the inequality others have it can be difficult to understand what others are fighting for.  Her experience has been positive.  I like that she acknowledges that others have paved the way for her which allowed her to have a good life now. I do object to the idea that if you haven't personally experienced sexism and discrimination it means that it isn't an issue.   Looking beyond your own experience is something that isn't happening enough.  I've noticed a trend of celebrity women seeming to need to make a point about how non-feminist they are as if being a feminist is something bad.   I think it's the negative connotation the word has taken on that's the problem  I bet if you asked them if rape victims being treated as if they were on trial was acceptable, if it's okay to pay a woman less than a man for the same job, if women shouldn't have control over their own reproduction  or  if it's acceptable for actresses to be given more poorly written roles than men, they would be against it.  I don't think they are rejecting the tenets of feminism but the negative image they associate with it.   This idea of the bitchy judgmental woman who hates men is what they are against, but that doesn't have to be feminism. I see nothing wrong with a woman who chooses to do the care taking thing for her guy at home as long as she's making a free choice that makes her happy.  A woman who expects her guy to share household chores is doing nothing wrong either.  For me the key to feminism, is that women should be free to make choices for their own lives without societal pressures or structures forcing her into a box. I realize there is an issue of judgement within women's issues.  A woman feels judged for her choices no matter what they are in ways men aren't.  Feminism doesn't have to be a dirty word.  It's a matter of perception.

 

There was an episode of Designing Women when Charlene decided to be a work at home mom where Mary  Jo gets snarky about it.   They end up attacking each other.  Charlene ends up telling Mary Jo that maybe her son wouldn't be in trouble of Mary Jo was at home rather than working.  I tended to side with Charlene because Mary Jo attacked her first plus when she was married Mary Jo was a stay at home Mom for her kids early years which made her hypocritical.  I liked that both women admitted they went too far, that both choices they made had pluses and minuses, and respected each others choices in the end.   I don't think male characters would get into an argument over those issues. 

 

On television, you see working moms all torn about balancing home and family, yet male characters rarely have that dilemma.  Lawyer Miranda on Sex and the City was worried about the effect her working so many hours would have on her son meanwhile Charlotte's husband Harry, who was also a lawyer, work hours were never an issue.  I loved when Up All Night had the husband choose to be a work at home dad because his father had been a workaholic and he was determined to be a more present parent which his job wouldn't allow.   It was so rare and of course the show ruined it by have the wife lose her job to stay home with the baby while the husband when back into work to start a business his dilemma over balancing work and family forgotten.

 

edited to add:

I just remembered a great episode of Life Goes On where Libby is torn about whether to continue being a working mom after her youngest son is born.  They paralleled her choice to quit her job with a flash back to a woman from the 1950s who wants to get a job but whose husband won't let her.   It was great because it validated the choice to stay at home and the choice to work outside the home.  I think the writers wanted to make it clear that the message wasn't all women should stay home with their kids but that they should be free to make the choice that works for them.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Luckylyn

[Bruinsfan]

Donna Mills on "General Hospital".  She can't open her mouth to enunciate properly.

I just googled pictures and am shocked to see that she basically looks exactly the same as I remember from the 1980s. Are we sure she went the plastic surgery route rather than black magic?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On television, you see working moms all torn about balancing home and family, yet male characters rarely have that dilemma.  Lawyer Miranda on Sex and the City was worried about the effect her working so many hours would have on her son meanwhile Charlotte's husband Harry, who was also a lawyer, work hours were never an issue.  I loved when Up All Night had the husband choose to be a work at home dad because his father had been a workaholic and he was determined to be a more present parent which his job wouldn't allow.   It was so rare and of course the show ruined it by have the wife lose her job to stay home with the baby while the husband when back into work to start a business his dilemma over balancing work and family forgotten.

 

If I can say so, though, the TV trope of 'spouse realizes that the person they married has exactly the same job they did before the wedding' has always bothered me. You see it mostly in public service jobs, with doctors and cops, but other careers are affected as well. On Criminal Minds, Aaron Hotchner, one of the male leads, started out the series married, and he and his wife Haley had a baby on the way that they were very happy about. But after their son Jack was born, her attitude changed, and she was annoyed a lot because he worked so much and was rarely at home. His job, mind you, was focused on profiling and catching serial killers and such. She eventually divorced him because he was too dedicated to his work, and then he became a single father after she was killed.

 

Fast-forward to current CM, where JJ Jareau is married to an ex-police detective from New Orleans, and they have a son named Henry. The actress actually got pregnant in real life, and they wrote it into the story. In an episode in the eighth season, she told one of her colleagues that she was a mother before she was an agent, but despite that she's seldom at home because she's out in the field with the team doing her job. Meanwhile, there's not one peep from her husband Will about how many dinners she's missed, or why she wasn't around to take Henry to the dentist. Will hasn't even been seen on the show for a bit, and yet somehow there's no issue with who's taking care of the kid while JJ is working on cases. So I guess the trope missed a spot. Or something.

[FormerMod-a1]

The Hotch/Haley situation really bugged me too.  They had known each other since high school.  In that time he went to law school became a prosecuting attorney, went to the FBI, headed the Seattle office and then ended up at the BAU.  They've known each other 20+ years and he's always had a odd hour, high intensity job.  But NOW she can no longer take it?  Yes, a child is a big change, but did she really expect him to change who he is?  Ugh, such horrible writing for their relationship.  That said I didn't want them to kill her off.  They could have divorced and had her remain in offscreensville if they couldn't get the actress anymore.  

[Luckylyn]

One think I really liked about the show White Collar before I quit it was that Elizabeth knew the kind of job her husband had and understood his work hours.  If you marry someone in a particularly intense profession, than you either accept the crazy hours or you don't.  You can't marry them and then expect it to suddenly change. 

[FormerMod-a1]

Agree, Luckylyn - their whole relationship is one of the things I really like about White Collar.  She's her own woman and character, too, not just "Peter's wife" despite being a secondary character.  

[Spartan Girl]

I understand The Simpsons is supposed to be a comedy cartoon and therefore not taken seriously, but the slow de-evolution of Marge pisses me off.  She used be an average female character, but now she's a complete narrow-minded, mealy-mouthed, insufferable, passive-aggressive, resentful, petty ninny. 

Edited January 8, 2015 by Spartan Girl

[Jipijapa]

 

She used be an average female character, but now she's a complete narrow-minded, mealy-mouthed, insufferable, passive-aggressive, resentful, petty ninny.

 

In other words, she's aging realistically.  :-)

 

(Believe me, as your parents get older and older, you will understand.)

[Bella]

In other words, she's aging realistically.  :-)

 

(Believe me, as your parents get older and older, you will understand.)

 

I'm sorry that's been your experience, but it's not universal, and I've got the awesome elderly relatives to prove it. 

 

Explaining sexism with ageism doesn't cut it.

[Jipijapa]

Lucky you!

[Irlandesa]

I'm sorry that's been your experience, but it's not universal, and I've got the awesome elderly relatives to prove it. 

 

Explaining sexism with ageism doesn't cut it.

Ha!  Many of my relatives became more open minded.

 

But isn't this a moot point?  Granted, I haven't watched The Simpsons in years but last I checked, no one aged.

[Spartan Girl]

Marge isn't the only female cartoon character that lost her likability/edge over the years -- Lois Griffin is another case.  She used to be likable but now she's a full-blown ****.

 

It's a pity because a pre-cancellation Family Guy episode had her take a pretty good stand on feminism, about how it was about choice and just because she chose to be a wife and mother didn't have to make her a full-blown ninny like Marge.

[Pickles Aplenty]

One thing Lois has over Marge is the fact that she has never been written as an idiot.  As big of a Simpsons fan as I am, I have always been disappointed with how lame and, well, stupid they've written Marge to be.  In the earlier seasons, there was a depth to her that just isn't there anymore.  Lois can be selfish and trashy and cruel at times, but at least she isn't Marge-level stupid.  If I were going to pick an animated housewife who didn't fit the insulting stereotype that all housewives are idiots, it would be Lois.  But that's just me.

[Chaos Theory]

In other words, she's aging realistically. :-)

(Believe me, as your parents get older and older, you will understand.)

Oh my god so true. I thought I was the only one this happens to. Edited January 9, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Jipijapa]

I think in general, people as they age, become less likely to filter their mouths.  Hence, perhaps the *appearance* of becoming more curmudgeonly...

[kathyk24]

If I can say so, though, the TV trope of 'spouse realizes that the person they married has exactly the same job they did before the wedding' has always bothered me. You see it mostly in public service jobs, with doctors and cops, but other careers are affected as well. On Criminal Minds, Aaron Hotchner, one of the male leads, started out the series married, and he and his wife Haley had a baby on the way that they were very happy about. But after their son Jack was born, her attitude changed, and she was annoyed a lot because he worked so much and was rarely at home. His job, mind you, was focused on profiling and catching serial killers and such. She eventually divorced him because he was too dedicated to his work, and then he became a single father after she was killed.

 

Fast-forward to current CM, where JJ Jareau is married to an ex-police detective from New Orleans, and they have a son named Henry. The actress actually got pregnant in real life, and they wrote it into the story. In an episode in the eighth season, she told one of her colleagues that she was a mother before she was an agent, but despite that she's seldom at home because she's out in the field with the team doing her job. Meanwhile, there's not one peep from her husband Will about how many dinners she's missed, or why she wasn't around to take Henry to the dentist. Will hasn't even been seen on the show for a bit, and yet somehow there's no issue with who's taking care of the kid while JJ is working on cases. So I guess the trope missed a spot. Or something.

[kathyk24]

It drove me nuts on the Closer when Brenda's parents would show up and she would be expected to entertain them. She's a high ranking police official and has to be available at moment's notice. You would never demand the same behavior from a man in the same position.

[kassygreene]

It drove me nuts on the Closer when Brenda's parents would show up and she would be expected to entertain them. She's a high ranking police official and has to be available at moment's notice. You would never demand the same behavior from a man in the same position.

 

Which was entirely the point.  At least they weren't nagging her for grandchildren, and had appeared to accept that she was good at her work.

 

Possibly their own memories of her first husband had moderated the cultural stereotype?  We never knew much about him.

 

Now that I think about it, I'm not so sure that was a gender bias or a I'm-your-family-here-to-visit-why-aren't-you-ever-home bias; Brenda was very very good about using work as an excuse to hide behind.

[mansonlamps]

I think in general, people as they age, become less likely to filter their mouths. Hence, perhaps the *appearance* of becoming more curmudgeonly...

It's crazy how many of my "virgin" aunts were pregnant when they walked down the aisle. Info courtesy of all the unfiltered talk I now am privy to.

[Spartan Girl]

But isn't this a moot point?  Granted, I haven't watched The Simpsons in years but last I checked, no one aged.

 

My point exactly.  It's more along the lines of the writers getting lazy and turning Marge into a ninny.  And it's just not her alternating passive/bitter attitude towards Homer in all those stupid Homer/Marge episodes, it's the fact that she acts like there's something wrong with Lisa just because she has no interest in getting married and having children -- even though she's EIGHT YEARS OLD.  And the fact that she has such a narrow-minded attitude about Lisa being a vegetarian and Buddhist.  Is this the same woman that once told Lisa that it was okay to be sad/happy/whatever she wanted to be?  I sure as hell hope not.

 

The thing that bothers me most about Marge is that she's the kind of person that seems to think everyone should think, feel, and act the same way she does.

[joelene]

They've given some meaty roles to women on Broadchurch this season, and even better most of them (three out of four) are over 40 and two are women of colour. I'm putting it in spoilers for the spoilerphobes. It's about the casting of four characters and a prominent location of season 2.

It's the big wigs in a trial - judge (Meera Syal), prosecution (Charlotte Rampling) and defense (Marianne Jean-Baptiste and Phoebe Waller-Bridge). I don't think I've seen courtroom drama featuring only women in the positions of power before.

Edited January 13, 2015 by joelene

[UYI]

I just googled pictures and am shocked to see that she basically looks exactly the same as I remember from the 1980s. Are we sure she went the plastic surgery route rather than black magic?

 

I agree. She's 74, and she looks fantastic. Her old KL costar Joan Van Ark, OTOH, has gotten so much (bad) plastic surgery that she now resembles a melted corpse. 

[Chaos Theory]

I am surprised this topic doesn't get more traction. Then again I find men (especially TV men) boring. Women even unpopular ones are more interesting to me.

Even with male dominated shows it is often the women I find the most Fascinating. A large portion of the audience is "I love the show but I hate the wife/girlfriend/daughter". While I am like "really watching the main character interact with them is the best part."

<----edited for clarity

Edited February 3, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[galax-arena]

I typically can't get invested in a show if it doesn't feature prominent female characters. Preferably more than one. And they should interact with each other.

 

I grew to love Ophelia Lovibond as Kitty on Elementary, and I think a part of that had to do with her interactions not only with Sherlock, but with Joan. It wasn't until I saw Joan and Kitty together that I realized how much I had been missing out on not seeing Joan interacting with other women, one-off guest stars aside.

[joelene]

I typically can't get invested in a show if it doesn't feature prominent female characters. Preferably more than one. And they should interact with each other.

Same here. And if I do get invested in heavily male dominated shows I'm more often than not the most interested (or at the very least as interested) in the one or two female characters that are around (I loved Skyler in Breaking Bad, Claudette was the best thing about The Shield, Peggy is infinitely more interesting than Don, Carol on The The Walking Dead was fascinating to watch from the beginning and she's easily the best thing about that show, et cetera et cetera). I'm gay and male and I think I can safely generalise and say "we" gravitate more toward the women on film and television. An exception would be Hannibal but I still love the female characters on that show and being an Alana and Freddie fan can be lonely.

Sci-fi and heavily plot driven shows can be different. Take Lost, were there could be camps of people either more involved with the character drama or the mystery plot mumbo jumbo. I was definitely in the latter camp since that show's representation of women was poor at best. But the mystery was great enough to keep watching (until it wasn't). Even so I kept waiting week after week for Claire and Sun to get something to do other than the usual lame baby/husband/boyfriend plots. Usually they didn't.

I easily love the comedy shows that feature more women than men a lot more. Broad City, Getting On, Inside Amy Schumer, Playing House and Web Therapy are probably top of the crop for me of the comedies currently airing, all dominated by women. An exceptions would be Episodes but that show really is 50/50 with men and women and both genders get to be just as funny, which is wonderful. Review is an exception where the man is the lead but he's backed by two recurring funny ladies. And I've recently binged Sirens and was surprised how much I liked a show where all the leads were men. That hasn't happened in... Possibly ever. Seinfeld did have Elaine, and she was easily the best character on that show. Oh, and Veep has more men but that makes sense considering the topic I think, and the lead is obviously a woman.

Rant rant rant.

Edited February 3, 2015 by joelene

[galax-arena]

And if I do get invested in heavily male dominated shows I'm more often than not the most interested (or at the very least as interested) in the one or two female characters that are around

You could have knocked me over with a feather when I found myself getting into DirecTV's Kingdom, which just completely reeks of testosterone. But then the character I became the most interested in was Kiele Sanchez's Lisa, and all was right with the world. Heh.

[Chaos Theory]

I typically can't get invested in a show if it doesn't feature prominent female characters. Preferably more than one. And they should interact with each other.

 

 

To a certain extent I agree,  I tried to like Supernatural but couldn't even though it is a genre I usually like but because of the complete lack of females I got bored.  However there are other shows that are female light that I tend to enjoy.  I loved Sons of Anarchy (but you can make a case for Gemma being the lead and she did have contact with other females throughout the series)  as well as Breaking Bad and Spartacus both which were male dominated shows with female supporting cast,    A heavy female cast does not automatically mean I will like the show.  I cannot stand Grey's Anatomy although I do like Scandal.   

 

I love American Horror Story because despite its flaws it is the female characters that get the good parts.    

 

Pretty little Liars is fun lunacy.

 

Recently I have been watching Rescue Me on Netflix.  Male Dominated with strong females and a few good female driven stories.  

 

Oh and if you are looking for something to watch on Netflix I would highly recommend Wentworth.   Kinda like Orange Is the New Black but grittier.....and Austrailian.

 

So yeah I like female driven shows but it is not a must if there is something else there for me.

[galax-arena]

A heavy female cast does not automatically mean I will like the show.

Oh, same here. I mean, I can't stand Girls. It's just that I'm much, much, much more likely to enjoy a more female-heavy show than a male-heavy show. There are, of course, exceptions, like the aforementioned Kingdom, but even there I gravitated towards the main female character instead of any of the guys.

 

A female-heavy show is just an incentive to give a show a chance. It doesn't necessarily mean I'll stick around.

[joelene]

I agree with that too, obviously. I had to stop watching Grey's after two season. Wentworth, however, is awesome! Now there's some pretty awsome (and awfully awesome) female characters.

And Kingdom! Yes! Although a case can be made about the pretty beefcake being a big part of why I stuck around, at least initially, but it turned out to be very engaging. Lisa and Chrisina are both great. Looking is another exception, but there's an obviously obvious reason for that. Same with Cucumber that just started in the UK. Gay dramas in general are gonna be exceptions.

Except Glee which is all of the above but simply awful.

[Niuxita]

 

I grew to love Ophelia Lovibond as Kitty on Elementary, and I think a part of that had to do with her interactions not only with Sherlock, but with Joan. It wasn't until I saw Joan and Kitty together that I realized how much I had been missing out on not seeing Joan interacting with other women, one-off guest stars aside.

 

This is me as well. I said several times on Tumblr that I hadn't realized how much I needed to see Joan interacting with another woman on a regular basis until the show gave it to me. The fact that they turned Kitty's relationship with both Sherlock and Joan into a pseudo parental arrangement was the icing on the cake, as was the fact that Kitty and Sherlock's relationship never once turned romantic. I was TERRIFIED they would do that because showrunners/writers always end up falling in the same traps when it comes to female characters (hell, they did that to Joan during that whole thing with Mycroft), but the way the show respect Kitty's character enough to know they could create a meaningful relationship between her and Sherlock WITHOUT it having to be a romantic one was incredibly refreshing to see. 

 

 

A female-heavy show is just an incentive to give a show a chance. It doesn't necessarily mean I'll stick around.

 

Exactly. I basically don't watch male-centric shows AT ALL because men's stories just bore me to tears, so you give me a female-heavy cast and I'll automatically add the show to my watch list (unless the synopsis really turns me off), because they're so few and far between, most of the time.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Niuxita

[manbearpig]

I feel like I'll watch anything as long as it's good, but I'd guess that most of my favourite television characters are women. (I'll watch and enjoy bad shows, too, though). On Sons of Anarchy the only two characters I was even remotely invested in were Tara and Gemma, and their scenes together kept me watching the show for way longer than I should have. Shame, because season two of that show was pretty great.

 

It doesn't surprise me that my favourite season of Supernatural was the one where two women were regular presences. I find Supernatural a difficult watch because there's a lot of filler and I can't bring myself to care for Sam, but I enjoyed season three, and actually quit watching for a while when they killed off Bella and then replaced Ruby with another actress. I only just started catching up now and I'm already on the verge of quitting, even though there's been good episodes. I just find the whole show disappointing, because it's so inconsistent. (I'm about mid-way into season five and unlikely to watch past this season, because if I'm not enjoying the show now I doubt I'll care for the later seasons).

Edited February 4, 2015 by manbearpig

[proserpina65]

Exactly. I basically don't watch male-centric shows AT ALL because men's stories just bore me to tears, so you give me a female-heavy cast and I'll automatically add the show to my watch list (unless the synopsis really turns me off), because they're so few and far between, most of the time.

 

I guess I've never really gotten this.  If a show's description sounds interesting to me, I'll give it a chance regardless of cast makeup or gender-centered story, and if the show itself is well-done and involving, I keep watching it.  Men's stories, women's stories, male-heavy/female-heavy cast, I don't really give a flying f*ck as long as the story is good and the characters are engaging.  But hey, to each, their own.

[galax-arena]

Media in general panders to men and their stories. Some people are tired of it. I'm one of them. People like seeing themselves represented on screen, I don't think it's that hard to get. Doesn't mean that the other male-dominant/heavy shows aren't objectively* good, but I have a limited number of television viewing hours in my day. Why not focus on media that shows people like me? 

 

And a trope or story that's boring with men at the center might be fresher with women simply because it's not as overdone. I'm sick of buddy comedy/odd couple bromances starring two white dudes. I'm sick of woobie jerkasses with hearts of gold. I'm sick of bad boy love interests. I'm sick of love triangles with two guys fighting for the girl's attention. Flip the gender (or race) around for several of them, and suddenly it's not as done to death. (Not that I'm a huge fan of love triangles to begin with, but one of the reasons why I think Chasing Life's love triangle was more palatable to me was because it was about a guy and a girl fighting for another girl's attention. Not a lot of bisexual love triangles portrayed in the media.)

 

And, of course, sometimes the same holds true for certain tropes being overdone when it comes to women, but not men. Like the Hooker with a Heart of Gold.

 

* Well, as objective as one can get when talking about television quality...

Edited February 4, 2015 by galax-arena

[Aquarius]

People like seeing themselves represented on screen, I don't think it's that hard to get. Doesn't mean that the other male-dominant/heavy shows aren't objectively* good, but I have a limited number of television viewing hours in my day. Why not focus on media that shows people like me? 

 

I don't think this is absolute.  I don't focus on stories about people like me because I KNOW what it's like to be me.  I wouldn't say I like to see myself represented onscreen.  I like engaging character-driven stories and I can engage with a wide variety of characters and stories.  Gender, race, sexual orientation, marital status - none of the things we use to 'define" ourselves - really matter to me when I am engaging with a story.