S02.E05: Other Lives

[crookedjackson44]

Thanks to all for explaining what is happening on this show; without your insightful comments I'd still be like I was last night after the episode's conclusion, still without a clue of the plot.  One bad plot point: after the wicked shootout, no explanation or follow-up scene.  Instead we're supposed to figure out that Ferrell's character quit, McAdam's was reassigned to the property room, and Kitsch's character is upgraded to detective and assigned to investigate fraud.  Why?  Was there some kind of recrimination after the shootout?  A panel?  An investigation?  Common practice in any narrative is to keep the audience informed about the plot and not to make us figure it out on our own.  If we miss something or misinterpret something, we're lost.

[paigow]

McAdam's was reassigned to the property room...

Steve will be the next dead body...

[TVHappy9463]

Where was this show four episodes ago, I think they could have condescend the first four episodes into 1.5, did a time jump and got to these characters stories much sooner. I hope Ray shoots Frank next episode, because the character is just awful, and Vaughn ruins every scene he is in. I need more of this Colin Farrell and Rachel McAdams. Time for McAdams to break the rom-com crap and get a gritty drama career going.

[Matt K]

Thinking back, last season everything seemed to revolve around the investigation.  The home life stuff dealt with the emotional fall out of both the murder and the detectives' obsessions with solving it.  Very little in the show did not in some way have to do with the overarching mystery.  

 

But this season very little in each episode (until the back half of this one) has to do with the mystery.  Which I think is part of the problem (at least my problem with the season).  I'm not sure I would have noticed as much of the other issues if I was still engrossed in the storyline.

[Ottis]

One bad plot point: after the wicked shootout, no explanation or follow-up scene.  Instead we're supposed to figure out that Ferrell's character quit, McAdam's was reassigned to the property room, and Kitsch's character is upgraded to detective and assigned to investigate fraud.  Why?  Was there some kind of recrimination after the shootout?  A panel?  An investigation?  Common practice in any narrative is to keep the audience informed about the plot and not to make us figure it out on our own.  If we miss something or misinterpret something, we're lost.

 

I found it refreshing that we were spared the aftermath of the shoot out. Yes, there was an investigation, and the people behind the scenes manipulated it so that the investigation tied the Mexicans in the shoot out and Caspere's murder together, so that, as far as the public is concerned, it's all a neatly wrapped bow and done. Those same shadowy manipulators used the shoot out to pressure Colin Ferrell to quit, and they are punishing the female lead (why can't I remember any of their character names?) with some time in lowly evidence locker duty. Interestingly, the ex-military cop seems to be a little bit of a hero, given he shot the most bad guys.

 

Of course, our three leads all know that was for show, and the real bad guys are still out there. So they are continuing their investigation, because they can't let it go. This is the only thing in this entire season that links what we are seeing to the concept of True Detective. Because all the personal angst is just ugh.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Ottis

[MrWhyt]

Thanks to all for explaining what is happening on this show; without your insightful comments I'd still be like I was last night after the episode's conclusion, still without a clue of the plot.  One bad plot point: after the wicked shootout, no explanation or follow-up scene.  Instead we're supposed to figure out that Ferrell's character quit, McAdam's was reassigned to the property room, and Kitsch's character is upgraded to detective and assigned to investigate fraud.  Why?  Was there some kind of recrimination after the shootout?  A panel?  An investigation?  Common practice in any narrative is to keep the audience informed about the plot and not to make us figure it out on our own.  If we miss something or misinterpret something, we're lost.

i don't think the show should hold the audience's hand through out the entire series. There was a shoot out with multiple cop and civillian deaths, with a camera crew near bye, of course there was an investigation. Of course some people got black balled and some got elevated to heroes.

[Primetimer]

'...The Sarah D. Bunting Story.' The silver linings around True Detective's reset.

Read the story

[teddysmom]

Banging off her bazooms? Really Sarah?

[crookedjackson44]

It is  common practice to make the plot make sense to the audience.  That's been true for a long, long time.  For example William Faulkner's plots were convoluted and difficult; critics loved them, but most readers didn't.  Ernest Hemingway's plot were mostly straightforward and direct; he was a literary star.

 

Last year's plot was direct and straightforward from the first episode.  This year's has been nearly impossible to follow.

[Penman61]

"Blue balls of the heart"?!?

[shapeshifter]

'...The Sarah D. Bunting Story.' The silver linings around True Detective's reset.

http://previously.tv/true-detective/he-was-a-portly-man-smelled-like-bourbon-flatulent-too/

 

"Other Lives" is not a hard enough reset to get anyone who gave up last month back on board. But for those of us stubbornly sticking it out, last night's True D did give us cause for cautious optimism.

So, at least this episode didn't hemorrhage more viewers.

[Neerbeena]

It is  common practice to make the plot make sense to the audience.  That's been true for a long, long time.  For example William Faulkner's plots were convoluted and difficult; critics loved them, but most readers didn't.  Ernest Hemingway's plot were mostly straightforward and direct; he was a literary star.

 

Last year's plot was direct and straightforward from the first episode.  This year's has been nearly impossible to follow.

 

Are you kidding?   I enjoyed last season but it couldn't have been more convoluted.  This plot is definitely much easier to follow.

[terrymct]

McAdam's was reassigned to the property room

 

I'm assuming it's not the same property room from which the blue diamonds disappeared.

[Pippin]

As mentioned upthread, I think it would throw an very interesting monkeywrench into the works if the paternity test revealed that Chad is not Ray's soon but he isn't the ex-wife's (can't remember her name) either. 

[MrWhyt]

It is  common practice to make the plot make sense to the audience.  That's been true for a long, long time.  For example William Faulkner's plots were convoluted and difficult; critics loved them, but most readers didn't.  Ernest Hemingway's plot were mostly straightforward and direct; he was a literary star.

 

Last year's plot was direct and straightforward from the first episode.  This year's has been nearly impossible to follow.

It makes sense to me, it makes sense to other members of the audience (this is not me defending the quality of the writing, just saying it makes sense). I've seen posters here accurately predict plot points that we had revealed in the most recent episode. "Make sense to the audience" is a very wide and undefined requirement, should the creator simplify everything so that the lowest common denominator has no problem following along or should she write her story and hope she's done a good enough job and the audience isn't dummies?

[cpcathy]

Truly, this should have been the second episode. We could have introduced everyone in the first episode A LOT sooner, had Caspere's death, quickly go through the investigation without all the endless talking, talking, talking, and then have the shootout. Bam, boom. This episode finally had something to grab onto, and I enjoyed it more.

[hendersonrocks]

Hey, Nic? Next time you want to include abortion in a few of your storylines, don't. Or if you must, maybe consult with some women and/or organizations who can help you not be a total fucking asshat about it. These "operations" that have made Lady Frank infertile and incapable of a coherent conversation, Mama Lolita's "scraper" slur...it's 2015 now. Welcome to the world women inhabit.

Edited July 20, 2015 by hendersonrocks

[meep.meep]

 

I think you are correct, it's the characters calling them "operations" as a euphemism, not the writers by proxy.

 

It was pretty clear from the dialog in this episode that the "operations" were laparoscopies, or other procedures designed to improve Jordan's fertillity, not abortions.  She had the operations after they started to try to have a baby.  She had one operation that Frank knew about, and then two more in the vain attempt to have a child of his.  And I think she's perfectly capable of coherent conversation.

 

Where did the diamonds come from?

[Ottis]

 Are you kidding?   I enjoyed last season but it couldn't have been more convoluted.  This plot is definitely much easier to follow.

 

 

Last season's plot was way more interesting though, with much more urgency.

 

It was pretty clear from the dialog in this episode that the "operations" were laparoscopies, or other procedures designed to improve Jordan's fertillity, not abortions.

 

 

Awesome, thank you. So all the language and social mores police can stand down.

 

I thought it was interesting that Ray's wife would meet with him one-on-one, given where they are in the acrimonious divorce and all. I suppose that shows there is still a connection there.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Ottis

[Lemons]

It was pretty clear from the dialog in this episode that the "operations" were laparoscopies, or other procedures designed to improve Jordan's fertillity, not abortions.  She had the operations after they started to try to have a baby.  She had one operation that Frank knew about, and then two more in the vain attempt to have a child of his.  And I think she's perfectly capable of coherent conversation.

 

 

 

When she told Frank she had three, he got upset and she said something like "but I was in my 20's."  As if that's the reason she had so many abortions. 

[cpcathy]

How come I didn't even know her name was Jordan???

[Jextella]

I read a theory that suggests Frank and Jordan are the parents of Paul and that age-wise, it could make sense.

 

That would be a stretch for me, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Jordan is Chad's biological mother. 

[crookedjackson44]

Another question: I live in New York state, where it hasn't been legal to smoke in bars for ten years.  This show is set in California, which is usually at least as progressive as New York.  It it true that California hasn't outlawed indoor smoking in public spaces?

[carn.lac]

LilaFowler, it's not a coincidence that Ani's childhood commune keeps getting pulled into this. Nobody is really talking about the influence of the Kali statue on this show, that was seen behind David Morse in episode one. It could turn out to be very important: http://www.lippsisters.com/2015/07/20/true-detective-goddesses-of-death-and-transformation-on-down-will-come/

[Lucelu]

I assumed the saddest bar in sadtown was a private club thus theoretically smoking could be allowed.

[represent]

Best scene of the night was the sexual harassment meeting, I watched that scene a couple of times because I just couldn't stop laughing. I love McAdams in this role, she's doing a great job. The men were like no let her share, it is a safe place LOL.

 

She just does not give a fuck and it's good tv.

 

And now she's like chain smoking real cigarettes, hitting the bottle heavy with her hands shaking and shit...jeesh.

Edited July 20, 2015 by represent

[hendersonrocks]

It was pretty clear from the dialog in this episode that the "operations" were laparoscopies, or other procedures designed to improve Jordan's fertillity, not abortions.  She had the operations after they started to try to have a baby.  She had one operation that Frank knew about, and then two more in the vain attempt to have a child of his.  And I think she's perfectly capable of coherent conversation.

 

I totally disagree with everything but the last sentence. (She is capable of having a coherent conversation, I admit - it just seems like the writers aren't really interested in allowing her to show much in the way of her obvious intellect. I was feeling snarky before.)

 

To me, it has been very clear across both episodes the "operations" referenced were referring to Jordan's prior abortion(s). Why would Frank flip out about laparoscopies? Why would Jordan keep those secret? Why would they discuss her known prior pregnancy and the "operation" that followed in the way that they did if it was a laparoscopy? I'm open to being convinced otherwise but this theory feels like a massive stretch.

Edited July 20, 2015 by hendersonrocks

[ChipBach]

This is the problem with this season.  We can't even interpret "operations" much less anything else.  I feel like I am watching "The Killing" not season two of "True Detectives".

 

Shit - I still don't know who Stan was...  Things need to really starting coming together faster if we only have three episodes left...

[shirazplease]

 

(Getting into the hooker gala is probably fulfilling one of her great fantasies.)

 

Elaborate please, if you would.

[Kat]

 

I thought all 3 actors killed it tonight.

Absolutely. Especially Taylor Kitsch in that scene with his demented mother.

[meep.meep]

I totally disagree with everything but the last sentence. (She is capable of having a coherent conversation, I admit - it just seems like the writers aren't really interested in allowing her to show much in the way of her obvious intellect. I was feeling snarky before.)

 

To me, it has been very clear across both episodes the "operations" referenced were referring to Jordan's prior abortion(s). Why would Frank flip out about laparoscopies? Why would Jordan keep those secret? Why would they discuss her known prior pregnancy and the "operation" that followed in the way that they did if it was a laparoscopy? I'm open to being convinced otherwise but this theory feels like a massive stretch.

 

Frank is the one insisting that a child of his own is the only way to go.  His finances are also up and down.  He thinks that they can get pregnant, she wasn't sure so had the first surgery.  If he thought that was all that was needed, she hid the fact that it wasn't successful.  Now they are broke and can't afford in vitro and a surrogate to carry the fetus.  She may well have had an abortion earlier, but the "operations" she is talking about aren't abortions.

 

I did think the conversation about adopting to give another child what Frank didn't have growing up was very powerful.

[maystone]

Let's play "Operation," shall we? I have theories!

1. I think that Jordan is talking about past abortions.

2. I think that she has no problem with the word - or the procedure - it's Frank who is off the wall about the subject. It seems to me that whenever Jordan says the O word, she hesitates, drops her voice a little, and I can practically see the quotes she's putting around the word operation in the sentence. Frank doesn't seem to have that same problem saying it.

3. Frank wants his own child. I've known guys like him (and I don't mean that disrespectfully) who want their DNA and only their DNA represented in any child carrying his name. Having a biological child seems much more important to Frank than it does to Jordan, who is happy to try for adoption.

4. Jordan is a former call girl. (Said with a dropped voice and quotes.) It's not unlikely at all that she would have had multiple unwanted pregnancies; I'm guessing that Jordan and her colleagues would have kept a lower profile or even more likely - if she were a part of the sex-for-blackmail sting that's still going on around her - her employers provided their own abortion services. Which leads me to …

5. Dr. Rick Springfield also does the occasional abortion on the side. Or did back when he was first starting out. He seems like a hack, and I'm sure that he wasn't all that careful about scarring up the young women he worked on.

 

That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it until I read something even more convincing. Which I'm sure will be showing up in the forum any minute now :)

[shapeshifter]

McAdam's was reassigned to the property room

I'm assuming it's not the same property room from which the blue diamonds disappeared.

Oh, I wouldn't discount that possibility just yet, heh, although they only have 3 more episodes, so probably not. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that in an earlier draft, that was the case.

 

 

It was pretty clear from the dialog in this episode that the "operations" were laparoscopies, or other procedures designed to improve Jordan's fertillity, not abortions.  She had the operations after they started to try to have a baby.  She had one operation that Frank knew about, and then two more in the vain attempt to have a child of his.  And I think she's perfectly capable of coherent conversation.

This makes way more sense than abortions, but count me in as an annoyed viewer if Pizzolatto later says he never thought we'd think abortions because he would have used that word if that's what he meant. Oh, the (future) irony!

[teddysmom]

Especially Taylor Kitsch in that scene with his demented mother.

 

 

Why didn't he just put that money in a safety deposit box at the bank?  It's not like he just found out his mother was a lunatic and could not be trusted to not find and spend  his $20,000.   He owes her for carrying him to term and raising him?   Nice....

[Hobo.PassingThru]

 

That would be a stretch for me, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Jordan is Chad's biological mother.

 

That would be an interesting twist. Actually, last week's episode had me wondering if Frank+Jordan might adopt Paul and his girlfriend's child. Obviously, paternity/ parents are running themes; it isn't just sex/ sexual dysfunctions that are focused on.

 

Sorry if this has been covered, but the whole Chad thing seems odd.  Maybe Jordan is his mother somehow - red

hair n' all.

I should have replied to that quote first. I didn't know who Jordan was when I read it earlier. But, now I know.

 

An episode or two ago, I actually suggested that maybe the maternity of the child was the twist but I couldn't figure out the what or why, that I can recall. But, there is still a chance that beyond that out there twist, maybe the rapist isn't the father nor is Ray the father. But, if Chad is not her child, that's the wildest twist of all.

[mjc570]

I am enjoying this show, generally, although there are particular things that I don't like or understand,  It seems clear to me that the writers (or whoever makes decisions) just don't like or understand women - the two women in traditionally masculine fields (Ani the cop, the assistant AG (>??)) are interesting, believable characters who exhibit agency and advance the plot in realistic ways. 

 

On the other hand, the  "less maculine" (so to speak)  women are total idiots: (1)  Ray's ex-wife - why is she insisting on a paternity test NOW?  She must hate Chad, if she thinks he'll be better off knowing he's the son of a serial rapist, rather than the cop who loves him;  (2) Frank's wife - really, does she have to insist on the child thing, now, when Frank is clearly under a lot of pressure?  and (3)  Paul's mother, ugh, what can I say.  What a coincidence, all 3 of these women have plots solely concerned with childbearing/raising. 

 

I know I shouldn't hold this against her, but why does Kelly Reilly have higher billing than VV?  She's not better known (I don't think), and I assume VV is more integral to the plot.  This makes me wonder if there is more to come about her character - I hope not, because while I think the other 3 characters' backgrounds are somewhat interesting and help fill out their characters, I really don't care about Frank's childhood or baby struggles, or anything other than the fact that he's a gangster whose plans to go legit were thwarted by Caspere's murder. 

 

p.s.  I wonder about Frank's negotiating skills - shouldn't he have specified that he could select the 5 parcels?  Unless this is a deliberate choice, to show that he just isn't that smart and that any "success" he's had is due totally to his use of violence.  I was sorry to see that he had to move from that beautiful house, because I looked forward to seeing it each week.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

McAdam's was reassigned to the property room...

I was hoping she would start making dollhouse furniture à la Lester.

Another question: I live in New York state, where it hasn't been legal to smoke in bars for ten years. This show is set in California, which is usually at least as progressive as New York. It it true that California hasn't outlawed indoor smoking in public spaces?

California was the first to enact a statewide smoking ban in 1995 (San Luis Obispo was the first city to ban smoking in all public buildings in 1990). According to wikipedia, one of the exceptions was (is?) "workplaces with five or fewer employees (as long as all workers' consent and persons under 18 are prohibited from the smoking area)." I'm not sure if that could really apply to a bar but unless someone called to report The Most Depressing Bar in California for smoking violations, then they could all smoke a pack a day in there.

why does Kelly Reilly have higher billing than VV? She's not better known (I don't think), and I assume VV is more integral to the plot. This makes me wonder if there is more to come about her character

Vince Vaughn is in the anchor position in the credits which is more prestigious than Kelly Reilly's fourth place position. Usually placement in the credits is more about how good your agent is than how big your role is in comparison to the other actors. Edited July 20, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Penman61]

Count me in for "operations" = abortions.  Why would Jordan finally confess that she had some "in her 20s," and why would Frank be pissed/shocked ("Why are you telling me this NOW, when I'm at my lowest?") if they were merely operations to help her conceive?  (And isn't laparoscopy a technique, not a specific procedure?  Medical people, help us!)

[shapeshifter]

Why didn't he just put that money in a safety deposit box at the bank?  It's not like he just found out his mother was a lunatic and could not be trusted to not find and spend  his $20,000.   He owes her for carrying him to term and raising him?   Nice....

Seriously. Maybe he told her to save it for him, but they didn't suggest that. Regardless. Paul, your mom's living in a trailer. What do you think she's going to do with the money?

But about the part I bolded: My mother used to say "I carried you for 9 months" whenever I was mad at her as an adult. Maybe Pizzolatto's mother told him that too?

[DEM]

She may well have had an abortion earlier, but the "operations" she is talking about aren't abortions.

 

I believe Lemons is correct that Jordan was referring to prior abortions.

 

"I had more than one operation, I mean. I had three. In my 20s."

 

I know I shouldn't hold this against her, but why does Kelly Reilly have higher billing than VV?

 

She does not.  Vince Vaughn is credited with an 'And', so he is technically 2nd billed behind Colin Farrell.

[LoveLeigh]

 

Thanks to all for explaining what is happening on this show; without your insightful comments I'd still be like I was last night after the episode's conclusion, still without a clue of the plot.

Spot on! I cannot follow this show at all. I know a guy was murdered... but all the paths to find who killed him have me very confused. I also cannot keep track of the names of the characters. 

 

I have to watch each episode three times to understand the plot. The same thing for last night's Ray Donovan (who was stabbed and why?) When plots are not clear, I am so lost and just watch for major developments and ignore the subplots. 

[Penman61]

 

Vince Vaughn is credited with an 'And', so he is technically 2nd billed behind Colin Farrell.

 

This is interesting.  I knew the "and" conferred higher billing for the actor than his place in the credits' order indicates, but how do we know that "and" = 2nd billing?  Why not 3rd (or 4th) billing?  

[Ottis]

How come I didn't even know her name was Jordan???

 

 

And who the hell is Chad? Colin Ferrell's kid? I ... never realized that. And yet I can recall Marty from season one.

 

The comment about three operations in her 20s is the only one that feels like she means abortions. It's easy to answer every other queston around that word choice vs. fertility operations.

[Accidental Martyr]

Why didn't he just put that money in a safety deposit box at the bank?  It's not like he just found out his mother was a lunatic and could not be trusted to not find and spend  his $20,000.   He owes her for carrying him to term and raising him?   Nice....

Or just keep it at your own place so you always know where it's at. I really can't think of any reason to leave it at his mother's trailer. Had it supposedly been in that closet for years and he just now went to get it and found out it was gone?

[teddysmom]

Or just keep it at your own place so you always know where it's at. I really can't think of any reason to leave it at his mother's trailer. Had it supposedly been in that closet for years and he just now went to get it and found out it was gone?

 

Yes I think so.  Paul is just his own worst enemy.  He should listen to what Ray told him. He's a war hero, and he's no more or less fucked up than the rest of us. 

 

In the shoot out at the end, it was obvious that Ray and Ani were ready to barf, and Paul was the one holding it together. 

[Ellaria]

Or just keep it at your own place so you always know where it's at. I really can't think of any reason to leave it at his mother's trailer. Had it supposedly been in that closet for years and he just now went to get it and found out it was gone?

 

He apparently never bothered to check that bag. Guess he trusted Mama. I thought that the scene at the trailer was the weakest part of the episode. It could have been eliminated and nothing about the story would have changed. Of course, maybe the bag-of-money comes into play in the next three episodes but I doubt it and I hope not.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Ellaria Sand

[WaltersHair]

Is there anyone on the planet that thinks Ani is just going to walk into an escort party, get information. and walk back out unscathed?

[mjc570]

ElectricBoogaloo and DEM:  Thanks for explaining about the Kelly Reilly/V V credits.  For someone who watches a lot of TV, I know very little about the entertainment business. 

[hendersonrocks]

Question(s) re: Santos - who kind of feels like the new Stan, given how much he came up by name this episode. 1) He is/was the big guy running the club who Frank beat the shit out of/pulled his gold teeth out, right? Which leads to 2) I didn't think that Frank actually killed him, but the way he was referred to this week it sounded like he was either dead or fully MIA so now I'm curious if we actually know his fate one way or another. 

[carn.lac]

Maystone, I agree with you about Jordan's abortions, and mostly because of the movie Ray's dad was watching when he went to visit him. It was "Detective Story" starring Kirk Douglas as a cop who hunts down an abortion doctor only to find out that his own wife had had an abortion (this was 1951): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043465/

I think that was a little Easter egg for the audience...it also plays in nicely with the idea of karma this season. Each character is going to play some role, unbeknownst to them, in the crime. It's just taking a while to get there, and the fun is in figuring out how they all took part. For example, I think the man Ray killed, who he thought was his ex-wife's rapist, might have had something to do with setting the wheels in motion. Surely Eliot Bezzerides is involved, so that covers Ani. Frank may have involvement in his own demise via Jordan and whatever she's been up to.