Captain I0 July 21, 2015 Share July 21, 2015 (edited) There's no doubt that it's extremely short-sighted and petty by the ex-wife, but it doesn't have to be about challenging his parenthood, per se. I think it's mostly about severing the connection between Ray and her son. But, I don't think it's that well thought out by her. Why she wants her son to find out his biological father was a rapist is cruel and unusual. Not to mention, the rapist could, in theory petition for some parental rights himself. He probably wouldn't get them and likely wouldn't want to, but he could try and make things messy if he wanted to. Edited July 21, 2015 by Captain I0 2 Link to comment
polyhymnia July 21, 2015 Share July 21, 2015 (edited) She has way more leverage in a custody battle if Ray isn't Chad's father. His attorney would argue that no one knew Chad wasn't Ray's for sure, and Ray did raise Chad as his son, so he does have some right to custody and visitation, if he can prove his violent streak and drug use is under control. Does California have the presumed paternity laws (as in if it is a child born during the marriage, father is presumed to be the husband)? I think they have some sort of presumed parent law but I am too lazy to google right now. I agree with WatchrTina's take on this subplot. (ETA: I also agree that it would be hard to challenge paternity, but getting custody changed might be less difficult because of Ray's sketchiness) The Chessani mom suicide as described by Rick Springfield is also confusing. He said something strange about it that got my attention but I haven't rewatched it. Edited July 21, 2015 by polyhymnia 1 Link to comment
iMonrey July 21, 2015 Share July 21, 2015 I assumed the saddest bar in sadtown was a private club thus theoretically smoking could be allowed. If it's a private club what was Ani doing in there with Ray? Maybe Frank bought Ray a membership, but Ani? And who the heck would want to belong to a private club that's such a dive and has no customers? For that matter, what would Frank be doing at such a place when he obviously has owned his own upscale joints? I think it more likely the whole smoking thing is just "atmosphere" and disregards actual logic and law. It's supposed to be noir-ish, not realistic. Honestly, for Ray to be so damned concerned about a paternity test has to mean something, right? I don't think this is supposed to be some huge, game-changing plot point. The only purpose Ray's son serves is to show us, the audience, Ray's humanity, in that he loves his son despite not knowing if he's the child's biological father. He doesn't even want to know, the matter is settled in his mind. I would guess the prospect of having that relationship challenged with a DNA test scares him because his relationship with his son is about the only thread he's still clinging to in his mess-up life. Basically Chad is Ray's whole motivation for being, and now he's threatened with losing that. 4 Link to comment
shapeshifter July 21, 2015 Share July 21, 2015 "maybe with Ani's predilection for hard core porn," Does she have a predilection for porn? I thought that she was looking for evidence. Did I misunderstand? Or was she looking for evidence and liking it? I thought the point was that she was watching it a little more than just looking for evidence, from the camera lingering on that one scene she was watching online,and that she ended the call with her partner really quickly to go back to watching. I could be wrong. I read the scene the way grannygeek did. I initially thought she was looking closely for clues--maybe for her sister to show up in one of the films. But her experience with watching such films--for whatever reason--could have helped her come up with the "girth" line. I found Ani's comments in the sex offender class predictable. Of course she was going to screw with the clearly unteachable male offenders. She thought it ridiculous that she was there at all. What else was she going to do? To be fair, they started it with the remarks about why was she there, implying why would she have to harass anyone for sex. She just had an effective come back. 4 Link to comment
teddysmom July 21, 2015 Share July 21, 2015 The Chessani mom suicide as described by Rick Springfield is also confusing. He said something strange about it that got my attention but I haven't rewatched it. Rewatch and listen closely. It's Very disturbing. Link to comment
Milburn Stone July 21, 2015 Share July 21, 2015 Is it more disturbing than the sex with the father-in-law? (Which I totally missed, by the way.) 2 Link to comment
Kbilly July 21, 2015 Share July 21, 2015 Rick Springfield's Plastic Surgery/Mental Health Day Spa hee! All kinds of Operations on the menu. I didn't even notice that Ray's mustache was gone, I am not a true detective. I hate Frank & Wife scenes so much that I completely zone out. Did he really say "blue balls of the heart?" 4 Link to comment
paigow July 21, 2015 Share July 21, 2015 The Chessani mom suicide... happened in Nevada at a clinic / asylum run by Rick Springfield. 1 Link to comment
paigow July 21, 2015 Share July 21, 2015 Not to mention, the rapist could, in theory petition for some parental rights himself. He probably wouldn't get them and likely wouldn't want to, but he could try and make things messy if he wanted to. Maury Povich: Ray...you are not the father...and neither is the rapist! 1 Link to comment
Penman61 July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 Rewatch and listen closely. It's Very disturbing. Ooh, please elaborate. 2 Link to comment
Quilt Fairy July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 Did he really say "blue balls of the heart?" Yes. Yes, he did. (Or maybe he said "blue balls to the heart", which makes doesn't make any sense, either.) So if Ani and Paul are following carrion birds down to the shed, there has to be a recent corpse around there, right? I can't imagine the birds would still be flying around the shed more than 2 months later when the only attraction would be Caspere's dried blood and a bit of penis. 2 Link to comment
teddysmom July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 (edited) Is it more disturbing than the sex with the father-in-law? (Which I totally missed, by the way.) No. That's what I meant, and I missed it the first time. I was talking to a friend about it and she missed it too. This is definitely a show that requires a couple viewings per episode, which imo Season 1 did as well. Yes, please elaborate. I missed it. See above. Edited July 22, 2015 by teddysmom Link to comment
Milburn Stone July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 ...which allows [bez] to...lean on her sister's six degrees of Chessani... I love Sarah's recaps/reviews (including the latest installment) but this phrase brings up yet another way I'm nearly totally lost. How is Bez's sister six degrees from Chessani? (To tell the truth, I now realize that I don't realize why Bez's sister matters in the story at all.) If anyone has pity on me, I wouldn't mind an explanation. If no one has pity on me, I understand. 1 Link to comment
NurseGiGi July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 No. That's what I meant, and I missed it the first time. I was talking to a friend about it and she missed it too. This is definitely a show that requires a couple viewings per episode, which imo Season 1 did as well. See above. Thanks for clearing that up for me, too. I rewatched and all I could get out of it was *mumble mumble patriarchal figure mumble mumble*. 1 Link to comment
teddysmom July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 (edited) How is Bez's sister six degrees from Chessani? The sister knows how to get into the parties, and knows some of the women who attend, probably from her participation in the web stuff, but maybe she didn't attend that many parties so that she'd know about all the sordid stuff going on behind the scenes. Guess we'll find out Sunday. Edited July 22, 2015 by teddysmom 2 Link to comment
NurseGiGi July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 I love Sarah's recaps/reviews (including the latest installment) but this phrase brings up yet another way I'm nearly totally lost. How is Bez's sister six degrees from Chessani? (To tell the truth, I now realize that I don't realize why Bez's sister matters in the story at all.) If anyone has pity on me, I wouldn't mind an explanation. If no one has pity on me, I understand. Chessani and his son run a sex party/prostitution ring. Bez's sister used to be a prostitute before she scaled down to doing computer sex acts. And then, of course, there's the connection between a lot of these people and Bez's fathers's commune. So, six degrees indeed. 4 Link to comment
Milburn Stone July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 (edited) Thanks, NurseGiGi and teddysmom. Edited July 22, 2015 by Milburn Stone 1 Link to comment
teddysmom July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 (edited) blue balls of the heart?" Blue balls of the heart. Can we break this down so I can understand what he means by this? 1. What was he talking about when he said that? The entire situation with Caspere's murder, him losing the $5 million, Catalyst screwing him over, etc. 2. We know what blue balls means. So Frank is almost to the point of getting in on the deal, then he's not, then he thinks he knows who killed Caspere, then he doesn't. So every venture he's tried to undertake stops right before it should be completed, ie blue balls. Conclusion: Kind of a really obscure way of stating - every time I think something's going to go my way, someone or something fucks me over. Thoughts? Edited July 22, 2015 by teddysmom 7 Link to comment
Penman61 July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 (edited) My recollection is that Frank was talking about how something was "stymying my retribution," that it gave him "blue balls of the heart." It's when Frank was talking with Ray about tailing his redheaded henchman (forget his name). I think Frank is going on about avenging the loss of his money and avenging Stan's (praise his name) murder. I guess I could go back and look on the DVR, but it means listening to Frank's atrocious prose again out loud. Am I diminished? Edited July 22, 2015 by Penman61 10 Link to comment
Desperately Random July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 (edited) So Frank is almost to the point of getting in on the deal, then he's not, then he thinks he knows who killed Caspere, then he doesn't. So every venture he's tried to undertake stops right before it should be completed, ie blue balls. Conclusion: Kind of a really obscure way of stating - every time I think something's going to go my way, someone or something fucks me over. My recollection is that Frank was talking about how something was "stymying my retribution," that it gave him "blue balls of the heart." It's when Frank was talking with Ray about tailing his redheaded henchman (forget his name). I think Frank is going on about avenging the loss of his money and avenging Stan's (praise his name) murder. I think it is a combination of both of these. Frank was on the cusp of becoming a legitimate businessman with the corridor/railway deal. Than at the last minute it gets taken away from him because Caspere is killed and his money is gone. He tries to find out where his money went so he can get back in on the deal but every lead he gives Velcoro doesn't produce any results nor do any of Frank's inquiries. Frank is now worse off than before he tried to go legitimate. Yet he doesn't know who to blame or to get retribution from because he doesn't know who did this to him and hasn't been able to find out. He doesn't know if it was Caspere, Catalyst, the Russian guy or someone else entirely (Blake?). So he has a bad case of blue balls in terms of both his being cut off from finally getting to be a successful legitimate businessman and from not being able to find out who took all that away from him. Edited July 22, 2015 by Desperately Random 3 Link to comment
teddysmom July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 I totally forgot about red headed guy probably screwing Frank over. Good point!!! Geesh, Frank has like NO friends. Stan gets killed, Caspere, Red head, Russian, Catalyst, and now Ray is probably going to knee cap him under the table. It's enough to give a guy blue balls of the heart. 6 Link to comment
CaptainCranky July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 Christ I wished I'd never started with the show. Didn't subscribe to HBO till earlier this year so I missed Season One. As for Season Two I watched small parts of Episode 3 when I was surfing which of course aroused my interest. So then I watch Episode One and Two (on demand) then Episode Four live and finally all of Three (on Demand). Episode Five live did give me a lot of clarrification But to say I'm fucked up watching this show so out of sequence really sucks. I probably need to go back after it's over and watch it in its proper sequence. Link to comment
WaltersHair July 23, 2015 Share July 23, 2015 I can't help but think the Bezzerides commune is a swipe at the Children of God cult River and Joaquin Phoenix were a part of as children. I remember all sorts of distasteful information about them back in the day. 5 Link to comment
Blakeston July 23, 2015 Share July 23, 2015 Ooh, please elaborate. Ray said, "You go back with the Chessanis. You put his first wife in a mental hospital." And then Rick Springfield said, "I did everything I could for Helene. Certain traditions of the Chessani patriarchs she had a difficult time with. They are, you might say, a highly inventive family." 2 Link to comment
paigow July 23, 2015 Share July 23, 2015 Any bird behaviour specialists out there? Do buzzards / vultures circle around things that are almost dead and accessible? When something is dead, then they start eating? There were several crows / ravens perched on the shed that did not react when Ani & Paul opened the cabin door. Are crows not scared of humans? If food is inside (but apparently not), why do they not fly into the cabin? 1 Link to comment
blixie July 23, 2015 Share July 23, 2015 (edited) And then Rick Springfield said, "I did everything I could for Helene. Certain traditions of the Chessani patriarchs she had a difficult time with. They are, you might say, a highly inventive family." I heard the line and I'm still not sure what the fuck it's insinuating. VAGUEBOOK much Nic? Edited July 23, 2015 by blixie 1 Link to comment
teddysmom July 23, 2015 Share July 23, 2015 (edited) heard the line and I'm still not sure what the fuck it's insinuating. VAGUEBOOK much Nic? I took it to mean sex with the father in law, and other weird stuff that would have ensued. Considering the theme of the show is sex parties etc that involved the Chessani men. Edited July 23, 2015 by teddysmom Link to comment
teddysmom July 23, 2015 Share July 23, 2015 Any bird behaviour specialists out there? Do buzzards / vultures circle around things that are almost dead and accessible? When something is dead, then they start eating? There were several crows / ravens perched on the shed that did not react when Ani & Paul opened the cabin door. Are crows not scared of humans? If food is inside (but apparently not), why do they not fly into the cabin? I'm no scientist, but it could be just the smell of dead bodies, the blood etc attracting the birds. We have a ton of turkey vultures around here and they'll circle and swoop down around anything they think is food. Crows are pretty habituated to people You can spook them if you get close and start yelling or clap your hands. But they're pretty brazen if they're in familiar territory. I've seen four or five of them gang up on a squirrel that was bothering a nest, and just to quiet the racket I've gone outside and yelled and made noise and they'll fly off. 2 Link to comment
polyhymnia July 23, 2015 Share July 23, 2015 (edited) My recollection is that Frank was talking about how something was "stymying my retribution," that it gave him "blue balls of the heart." It's when Frank was talking with Ray about tailing his redheaded henchman (forget his name). I think Frank is going on about avenging the loss of his money and avenging Stan's (praise his name) murder. I guess I could go back and look on the DVR, but it means listening to Frank's atrocious prose again out loud. Am I diminished? We all are diminished by having to listen to VV deliver this dialogue. (I still didn't leap to sex with the father from that patriarch line, just vague seedy sexual stuff or other abuse. Even on reviewing. And I did understand that she committed suicide at Rick Springfield's day spa) I was rewatching this episode (and I haven't hated the last two, there have been some good things) and my husband sat down during the blue balls of the heart dialogue and said "I'm out!" Edited July 23, 2015 by polyhymnia 2 Link to comment
teddysmom July 23, 2015 Share July 23, 2015 (I still didn't leap to sex with the father from that patriarch line I thought the "certain traditions of the patriarchy" meant that. Maybe we'll find out. Maybe it just meant that she had to attend and participate in the sex parties. I wonder if we'll get the hard drive evidence and maybe find out like Marty found out about the child sacrifice. 1 Link to comment
kieyra July 23, 2015 Share July 23, 2015 Regarding 'blue balls of the heart', this was one of the many moments during the season where the significant other and I had to pause the show so we could get the laughing of the way. Sadly this started in episode one, then continued with gems like Vince Vaughn's delivery of "And then the rats came." 5 Link to comment
blixie July 23, 2015 Share July 23, 2015 I still didn't leap to sex with the father from that patriarch line, just vague seedy sexual stuff or other abuse. Even on reviewing. Right? I mean I obviously knew it was weird sex stuff that her husband was demanding out of her, but Sprinfields line *read very well VV take notes* was as if he were insinuating something very SPECIFIC and PARTICULAR about the Chessani's that an reasonable person could infer from "patriarchs of the Chessani" when we haven't even MET Mayor Chessani's father. Like this was some Roose Bolton-Game of Thrones first night shit? Okay, but I just don't see where that's natural leap. Meanwhile I have to listen to VV talk about blue balls of the heart, but Nic can't use one of his three dollar words to be direct about what KIND of perverted sex is happening? Probably because he thinks all sex is perverted, sex with birdmasks, anal play, and horror of horrors being a gay cop. Link to comment
shapeshifter July 23, 2015 Share July 23, 2015 We all are diminished by having to listen to VV deliver this dialogue. Indeed. But isn't it really a monologue at this point? 2 Link to comment
12catcrazy July 23, 2015 Share July 23, 2015 "Meanwhile I have to listen to VV talk about blue balls of the heart, but Nic can't use one of his three dollar words to be direct about what KIND of perverted sex is happening? Probably because he thinks all sex is perverted, sex with birdmasks, anal play, and horror of horrors being a gay cop." Sort of how many here think "operations" is a code word for abortions. Whatever world Nic is in, it ain't in 2015. I'm just waiting on how he's going to punish Ani for her transgressive sexual proclivities. Something awful might wind up happening to her in that sex party she's trying to get access to. Link to comment
paigow July 23, 2015 Share July 23, 2015 I'm no scientist, but it could be just the smell of dead bodies, the blood etc attracting the birds. We have a ton of turkey vultures around here and they'll circle and swoop down around anything they think is food. Do "your" vultures fly in a flat circle if there is no meat visible? Because Show!Vultures are pretty dumb if meat is inside the cabin and they keep circling above it. Are they waiting for a tornado to rip the roof away? 2 Link to comment
Hobo.PassingThru July 23, 2015 Share July 23, 2015 Maybe the vultures were waiting around for the giant bird man to come back with his meatball shooting stick. Ha! Now I can't help but consider the vultures being as dumb as that buzzard in the Bugs Bunny cartoons. Link to comment
Cardie July 24, 2015 Share July 24, 2015 Those are symbolic vultures: they never eat, only signify. 10 Link to comment
Hobo.PassingThru July 24, 2015 Share July 24, 2015 Those are symbolic vultures: they never eat, only signify. Perhaps. I just expected that if they meant something they would have taken a crap on the Two Detectives' heads. So they would have served as a plop device. 6 Link to comment
shapeshifter July 24, 2015 Share July 24, 2015 Perhaps. I just expected that if they meant something they would have taken a crap on the Two Detectives' heads. So they would have served as a plop device. *groan*Nevertheless, I will be looking for an opportunity to use "plop device." Would this be an appropriate definition?: An unbelievably silly character, event, or thing that allows the story to unfold as the writer intended Link to comment
Hobo.PassingThru July 24, 2015 Share July 24, 2015 Would this be an appropriate definition?: An unbelievably silly character, event, or thing that allows the story to unfold as the writer intended Well, I woulda wrote "plotz device" but I wasn't sure if everyone knew comedic Yiddish. So, I went with "plop" because more people would get it. It was crappy pun. I acknowledge that. I was just saying if all they are doing is signifying something then they are just a story device signifying death. But, Plop Device is funny. Plotz Device is hilarious! 4 Link to comment
Penman61 July 24, 2015 Share July 24, 2015 Is it wrong that I find this thread more entertaining than the show? 8 Link to comment
teddysmom July 24, 2015 Share July 24, 2015 when we haven't even MET Mayor Chessani's father. He's dead. Link to comment
tennisgurl July 24, 2015 Share July 24, 2015 (edited) Those are symbolic vultures: they never eat, only signify. " Keep running up the hill. The hill is a metaphor. Everything is a metaphor" -Bojack Horseman But, I don't think it's that well thought out by her. Why she wants her son to find out his biological father was a rapist is cruel and unusual. Yeah, this seems really messed up to me. I get that she wants Ray out of the kids life, but whats worst, him thinking his dad is rather messed up, or that his father is a serial rapist? Does he really want to know that? Edited July 24, 2015 by tennisgurl 4 Link to comment
MarkySnark July 24, 2015 Share July 24, 2015 Noticed that they didn't show Ray's hands when he was at Frank's door at the end. I wonder if he is wearing his gloves of doom that he wore to beat up the reporter and Dr. Noah Drake. 3 Link to comment
paigow July 24, 2015 Share July 24, 2015 I get that she wants Ray out of the kids life... So Chad can get cast in SVU: TNG 1 Link to comment
shapeshifter July 24, 2015 Share July 24, 2015 Those are symbolic vultures: they never eat, only signify. Okay, three mentions and this line has to be posted on Twitter. Yeah, this seems really messed up to me. I get that she wants Ray out of the kids life, but whats worst, him thinking his dad is rather messed up, or that his father is a serial rapist? Does he really want to know that? When Ray reacts to the idea of a paternity test, I/we've been thinking it's all about losing custody. But it could be more about his not wanting Chad to know--which would make a real difference in whether or not Ray qualifies as a hero. 4 Link to comment
carn.lac July 24, 2015 Share July 24, 2015 Here's all you need to know about Carlos Castaneda, and why he's so influential on this show:http://www.lippsisters.com/2015/07/24/true-detective-season-twos-the-king-in-yellow-or-what-you-need-to-know-about-carlos-casteneda/ Link to comment
shapeshifter July 24, 2015 Share July 24, 2015 Here's all you need to know about Carlos Castaneda, and why he's so influential on this show: http://www.lippsisters.com/2015/07/24/true-detective-season-twos-the-king-in-yellow-or-what-you-need-to-know-about-carlos-casteneda/ --and more! I never did get through all of Castenada's books, try though I did as a good hippy, and I cannot get through all of that page, but did note: Oh, and the Yaqui Indians, the tribe the fictional or maybe-not-fictional Don Juan belonged to? Yeah, they wore lots of animal masks. Thank goodness we now live in the time of Edit/Find. Even the iPad version of Chrome comes with a Find-in-Page. 1 Link to comment
DEM July 25, 2015 Share July 25, 2015 (edited) This is interesting. I knew the "and" conferred higher billing for the actor than his place in the credits' order indicates, but how do we know that "and" = 2nd billing? Why not 3rd (or 4th) billing? I think we left you hanging. As ElectricBoogaloo mentioned, the 'and' is the anchor position. Do you know about primacy and recency effects, where the first and last items in a list are remembered best? That's the underlying principle of billing. So first is highest, 'and' at the end is 2nd, and 'with' in the penultimate position is 3rd. (The 'with' and 'and' make them salient and indicate specialness.) This official show poster illustrates the order when it's presented as a still image. Edited July 25, 2015 by DEM 1 Link to comment
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